I know its a silly title for a thread but I couldn't think of anything snappier.
I was stuck in a traffic jam this morning listening to some music courtesy of Folan and Jnr Davey and it got me thinking as to what makes Bodhran playing appealing. No this is not a Bodhran bashing thread; at least not yet.
I am still trying to formulate my answer to this question but it came to me that the fundamental thing is that this is dance music and yet we play it most of the time without dancers - really weird eh!
Maybe what makes a bodhran desirable is when it takes the place of the dancers feet so in fact this has really all become "Bodhran Music"!? ITBM.
Some of Jnr Davey's playing reminded me of the sound of a good hard shoe reel/dance. Are you out there BB, can you give me your thoughts on this?
I don't believe it has become 'Bohdran Music'. I've been to many sessions where there is no Bohdran present and the music is still lively and full of spirit.
As for the music being dance music... a lot of dancers these days don't appreciate the music they dance to... a sad fact but true.
Davydd I dont for a minute think that we can't play without a Bodhran. I was more looking at what makes a Bodhran player good and why. Is it because they are contributing something that is similar to what you get when you play for dancers.
For my part the bodhran players we get at sessions rarely add anything to the music but I dont mind as long as they are in time and not overly loud.
I agree that many of the young step dancers have
absolutely no regard for the music itself.
Good bohdran players will often have the same elements as a good dancer re Rhythm & Timing. Altho a dancer is often confined to set routines. Unless they can improv on the spot which is a skill few step dancers have.
I find it great when bohdran players play along with the rythm of the tune instead of playing the same beat all the time.
I've only come across a few here in Aus that do this... such as 'SirNose' and 'late in the evening'. I guess this is because they are both great tune players as well.
I'll second your comment about SirNose and his Bodhran playing; afraid I have never had the joy of hearing Bliss play and to come to think of it he hasn't posted lately, has he?
The trend in Bodhrans lately is to go for the really deep "Boomer" type . These Overpower the music and are actually out of tune (if you pardon the expression ) with the music when played without hand tension. The old sytle (shallow) type in the hands of a tasty bodhran player can give a nice lift to the music.
No problem at all with the devils instrument (had one in my band in the past) - its only when the devil gets inside the player.
The devil puts it into peoples minds that you can take one into a session as soon as you buy it. You should pass your advanced driving test before you drive it in a session.
"this is dance music and yet we play it most of the time without dancers"
This is really the crux of it. I was playing for dancers at the weekend and I can tell you it's very different music to that which I play down the pub with my mates. Not just the range of tempo, or the dynamics, or the twiddly bits, but all of it is so different. How can you say it's dance music when there are no dancers and it's not for dancers, it's ludicrous. The music I play down the pub was once dance music that's all. It should always look back and honour that tradition, but it has now been freed from that constraint. So the idea that you should introduce another constraint in the form of a bloody drum just makes me so annoyed. What's the purpose of a bodhran? What a stupid question. You can muse all you like and formulate theories and rationalise, you can give anything a purpose if you want. But the music is the music. It is complete within itself. Anything extra is mere accessory. The only purpose a bodran can ever have in this music is as an accessory.
i agree with llig. i think sometimes the bodhran is given too much freedom, for example reagarding rythm, dictating pace, etc. the main function of a bodhran is to compliment the music, not to replace the dancers that aren't there. i always said that the best person to judge a bodhran player is someone who does not play the bodhran. i use this especially with bodhran competitions because ive heard too often these big bodhran intros to tunes, all of this watery bodhran playing (the sort of plippity ploppity sound) that i find just really distracting for melody players. there are only a couple of bodhran players that know what bodhran playing actually means, take for example johnny mcdonagh. he is the best out there because of his unassuming style, it is straight down the line with the odd phrase and fancy bit thrown in but it si far more effective than any of the over the top playing.
its not that i dont like bodhrans, it is sometimes the players that irritate me. and remember to keep it to ONE bodhran per session if any! lol.
I can't resist saying: "Different strokes for different folks" but I do agree that more than one bodhran at a time does muddy the music. The bodhran is really a versatile instrument ! One can add many effects to support the melody players. Sometimes when there is no bass player it can be used to make an "almost a bass" line. It does not have to be played through the entire tune, don't forget, it can be played softly and delicately as well as loud and accentuating. One thing about that brings me joy is when people get up and start dancing or moving in their chairs to the beat of the bodhran.
As a box player, far be it from me to make jokes about other instruments. Lord knows box players put up with enough jokes.
Drums are pretty basic to music. Playing them is a lot more difficult that it looks.
I tend to be of the position that there are two types of bodhran player- ones who know how to play the bodhran, and those who shouldn't be playing bodhran.
I am not shy about admitting to be a member of the second group despite several noble attempts at learning the instrument.
I think that someone who can play the bodhran well and be sensitive (maybe there's a better word) to the melody players and the tune(s) being play can really add something.
On the other side, more than one at the same time is annoying.
As far as the question "What makes bodhran playing appealing?"
The bodhran is an interesting drum. In the prospective of backing a tune and melody players it's quite impressive of the rhythmic possiblities with just one stick.
I have to wonder if there is a conception for the newcomer to ITM the bodhran is easy to learn (play) and if one just play the same patterns in time over and over they'll be know as "Great". Like it is the quickest and easiest path to ITM enlightment or something.
...
IMHO:
I believe the same attitude can sometimes be observed from guitarists from other traditions.
The swing of much American bluegrass or Old Time music seems quite different to me, yet I have encountered quite a few gitarists who seem to think they can just jump in and apply what they know to ITM or Scottish trad (STM?). It does not seem to work that way, and brows begin.
Perhaps the answer, no doubt suggested many times and more eloquently in the last thousand bodhran threads here, is to learn some melodic instrument when first studying the style. It may make for a better understanding of the music and how it all fits together.
(This entry was brought to you by the Department Of Redundancy Department as an entry directed to you.)
The purpose of the bodhran is a no brainer to me. In order to have music you must have 3 things; melody, hamony and rhythm. Fiddles, flutes, boxes, banjo, mandolin, etc cover the first two. Bodhran, bones or spoons is NEEDED for the third.
And I'd rather see an arrogant fiddler thrown out of a session than a bad bodhran player.
In order to have music you must have 3 things; melody, hamony and rhythm. Fiddles, flutes, boxes, banjo, mandolin, etc cover the first two. Bodhran, bones or spoons is NEEDED for the third.
lol, that comment above, obviously someone trying to ruffle a few feathers. lol.
anyway, about those points. i dont think you NEED a percussive instrument to have music. this all goes back to the accessory idea that llig said. a bodhran isn't a musical instrument, it is percussive, thats not an insult it is true,and im sorry if bodhran players disagree with that but it is the truth but im happy to say that GOOD bodhran players know this. they are there as a 'compliment' to the music, not as a necessity. you can;t really put it into the same category as a fiddle per se.
and i dont see the need to poke fun at the statement ' you think there is no rythm in the tunes alone?'. thats what that other comment came across as, maybe something was lost in translation i dont know. but the tunes ARE rythmic enough without a bodhran or backing. although this can depend on the player aswell, but at the heart of it the tunes are able to stand alone. ive played in plenty of great sessions without the need for bodhrans, piano, guitar etc.
and im sorry, if i had to choose between an arrogant fiddle player for instance frankie gavin, or a bad bodhran i would choose the former. if you are talking about no brainers, there is one for you.
I agree with Llig on rhythm in the tune itself. I remember when I discovered this. I was playing my whistle silently and I began to hear how finger-falls and breath streams were very rhythmic. The experience opened my eyes and ears!
I am intrigued by the concept that the bodhran is a replacement in the absense of dancers.
I think I would rather play the same three or four tunes all night with dancers than a whole night of various tunes with none. There is a big difference.
lol, i think putting the bodhran into the same class as SPOONS just proves the point about bodhrans in a different class. it also proves my point about not needing percussion. doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the necessity or importance as you like to call it.; fiddle and flute are in one group, bodhran and spoons are in another. go figure.
Oh, we are talking about Irish Traditional Music, right?
Well, with the exception of our vocal chords, there is no more traditional instrument than the bodhran. So I guess what liig and fiddleruairi play is more of a new fangled version of traditional tunes. They just don't play it in the traditional manner.
It’s a backing instrument, anything more and it takes away from the melody. Rhythm can be added/influenced in ITM in a number of ways. I don’t see it as being the place of a Bodhrán to dictate the pace of a tune unless the melody/players require it. Less is more in my opinion, Bodhrán is a nice addition when played well but it certainly isn’t the only way of setting a rhythm. I agree with Llig its an accessory that some enjoy and others don’t
yes, but you said music. maybe its you that plays something else.
well if you are talking about playing tunes in a traditional manner, well i think i would know about that seeing as i grew up in a whole family and cousins that play music. i was brought up on actual irish music ie. michael coleman, bobby casey, seamus ennis. not floggin molly or lunasa. none of the names i mentioned had or even NEEDED bodhrans.
you obviously dont understand the whole concept of irish music if you think the only way to have it is if you have ALL of those factors. so you must be saying that without a bodhran or spoons (gimme a break) that it is not music or irish music?
yawn, yawn, yawn, how many more times are we going to have a bodhran bashing thread. I know it didn't start out as one but the "cynics" always have to have a go. One wonders if they have Irish roots at all or any understanding of our music. Lots of the older musicians played with a bodhran or a piano. these MUSICIANS were well respected. One that springs to mind is Tom Harte who was immortalised by the great Josie McDermott in Darbys Farewell. (Tom is Darby). Sadly Tom no longer plays his bodhran but is remembered by all in Roscommon with fond affection. And as for the music not being dance music. Rubbish, it started off as dance music and despite what jazz or rock or whatever twists you add to it the music is still dance music. Illeg if you are playing some tunes and nobody feels the urge to dance to it then give it up as a bad job.
Believe me there are far more bad fiddle, banjo, guitar, flute players around than bodhran players. Keep up the rhythm lads! You are appreciated.
ted furey & brendan byrne - 1967 toss the feathers
If anyone has ever heard the above,the bodhran is so overbearing its funny... for a while .I don't know about the copy write or i would put a snippet up.
I don't mind Bodhran,its best when you don't notice it too much 8) but most cant integrate it, and its the player that does the damage.
Well, Donough certainly knew the thread was going to degenerate into this...
The music should give people the urge to get up and dance, but it should be the melody players that are providing that feel, not the accompanists. If you're relying on the accompaniment to provide the lift, then you need to work on your playing.
Unlike Rock, Jazz, or Country music, which is built upon the rhythm section (bass & drums mostly), ITM is based on the melody. A lone melodic source stands well on its own. Any rhythmic accompaniment in Irish is really only there to enhance the music, not to be a basis for it.
I like a well played bodhran. But I certainly don't stress out when we have a session and there isn't any accompaniment.
When I first saw a bodhran lying on a table in a session I was of the opinion that it was a tray designed for carrying pints of beer. Since then, there haven't been all that many occasions in sessions when I've needed to revise that opinion, but those rare occasions have been notable and worth hearing.
Firstly, the bódhran is not a traditional instrument within Irish music. (Not unless you count the tradition as being very recent indeed.)
Secondly, music does not require "3 things: melody, harmony and rhythm" - it only requires one of those, which happens to include within it a sufficiency of the other two.
btw, I am not 'bashing bódhrans'. But let's get it in the right perspective, eh?
Who knows? Michael may well be an "arrogant fiddler". But he shouldn't be called "arrogant" just for stating the bleeding obvious.
To try to answer the original question: sometimes the right player combined with the right bodhran adds an earthy spice to the music. It's primitive sound seems to affirm that this is not your hoity-toity art music, it's something that has a long tradition with the "Plain People of Ireland," if I can use Flann O'Brien's expression. And it shares something in that respect with tin whistles and banjos.
All that said, it is still spice, and you can well have a good dinner if you leave out the spice. And you can ruin a dinner with the wrong spice or with too much spice.
Llig is right. Im amazed at how many people are ignorant of how traditional music has managed to stay alive in the minds of people for centuries. It needs no further assistance to survive. It needs no bodhran or anything else. It doesnt need records or cds or tv shows either.
Rock, blues and pops and all of its forms depend on electronics, grooves, drums, mics and other devices. Ever sit around a campfire and listen to people singing rock songs? They make strange noises with their mouths to imitate the sounds of the guitars and drums and sing what can scarcely be called a tune. Can you imagine viewing such a thing from an unobjective standpoint? It would be very strange indeed!
Take a traditional melody and hum it, whistle it, sing it and it breathes life into the world and it doesnt need anything else.
I would bet money that most here on the session cannot play traditional music -Irish or otherwise withour resorting to a predisposition for pop music and it's effects and affects.
You have to drop those nasty habits... its not your fault... the world has molded and shaped you into thinking that music needs "these three things etc..." Its all just garbage and if you can't drop the garbage, then you have no idea what traditional music is all about.
Funny how bodhrán threads always draw some really ridiculous comments.
Here's some so far.
bOdhran: 'The bodhran is really a versatile instrument ! One can add many effects to support the melody players. Sometimes when there is no bass player it can be used to make an "almost a bass" line.' Of course, bass players are such a necessary component of traditional music.
Here's bOdhran again: 'One thing about that brings me joy is when people get up and start dancing or moving in their chairs to the beat of the bodhran.' The second part of this sentence defies any kind of sensible comment (unless the poster only plays in geriatric care homes).
Then there's Fishmonger's 'Bodhran, bones or spoons is NEEDED for the third.' He was talking about rhythm. What, no shakey eggs? Actually, he was talking from a position of incarnate ignorance about the music.
Then Fishmonger comes up with this 'Well, with the exception of our vocal chords, there is no more traditional instrument than the bodhran.' Apart from the fact that their vocal cords (!), how on earth can the bodhrán be considered more traditional since it was introduced to traditional music many years after most other instruments (and I'm calling it an instrument only begrudgingly)?
MollyB then arrives up with this garbage 'Believe me there are far more bad fiddle, banjo, guitar, flute players around than bodhran players.' We might agree with the reference to guitarists, but it's a lot harder to be a bad fiddler than a bad percussionist.
And, JD, my copy of the 'Toss the Feathers' CD certainly does not feature a bodhrán high in the mix.
Does anybody really care what bodhrán players feel about their role in the music? I should sincerely hope not.
"Purpose of bodhráns"? I'm pretty sure you hit them with this little stick and they sound just like a drum.
To answer the posts' question, what makes it good are not having it played all the time, not playing the same thing all the time, and paying close attention to the music you are accompanying.
What always drives me nuts are the people that do the same beat through a whole set of tunes, never stopping or changing what they are doing. Truly awful.
Considering it's a drum, there's only so much you can do with it, as far as making it sound different. I humbly suggest growing a sense of drama. What I mean (for example) is NOT playing the first time through, play a little the second, and come in full bore on the third, and then stop dead when the next tune starts. That's absurdly basic, because I'm no drummer, but I do know what I like, and what I like is NOT the same flippin' beat to every single tune with no pauses. I like to feel like a person playing the drum is listening to the music I'm playing and is playing it WITH me, not against me, or at me, boom-chucka boom-chucka boom-chucka.
...that's the big crisis, IMHO. It doesn't seem like rocket science to play the thing tastefully, I don't understand why it can't be done more often. I really enjoy it when it's done tastefully. It does give that whole, "Earthy" non "hoity toity" feel to it. Very primal.
I disagree with Fishmonger. Yeah to harmony and yeah to rhythm, but I do not think that Irish traditional music needs melody at all. It is, after all, dance music. Dance music requires rhythm only, so that the dancers can do their thing. Therefore the bodhran is the only instrument that is required for ITM.
Actually, I think Michael may have inadvertently hit on something. Playing for dancers is very different in a lot of ways than playing in a session. So in that case, Donough, I think you may be right. The bodhrán can give a different feel to the music, more like having a dancer.
And maybe bodhrán players can take that to heart, because you would never hear a hard shoe dancer dancing the exact same clickity-clackity clickity-clackity step all the way through a tune. There needs to be variety in the rhythm. I like it when a dance step is based around the tune, punctuating and accenting it.
Just like melody players, rhythmic accompaniment should give some "space" to the tune. If it sounds like a sewing machine or a freight train, the music can lack character and beauty.
Sure enough my good Reverend, and if it's a ceili, forget about needing any ornamentation or tune variations, "We have no time for that, go go go!!!" and if it's step dancers, bring all your variations so you don't get bored out of your mind: "...and now, Miss Golden Curls will do a treble jig at roughly 75 beats per minute...zzz..."
See, now there's something we can all agree on, making fun of dancers.
And, JD, my copy of the 'Toss the Feathers' CD certainly does not feature a bodhrán high in the mix.
Well i suppose we all have different taste.When i listen to that cd it takes me a while to get passed the bodhran playing,and the last time i listened before a few mins ago, who i was listening with thought exactly the same,and i think most would .You do get used to it eventually but its too much for me on a good few of the tracks.As i said though its just personal preference i suppose.As it goes i actually like the album, (album eh! heh)
As for the "bodhranista's" 8) role, i don't mind them so that's not where i am coming from,when i hear people talk or write about bodhrans that cd always springs to my mind,as an example of too "much iness".
Regards
just did a search on here and the first comment that came up was..
Furey (fiddle, father of Finbar, George, and the rest of the brood) and Byrne (bodhran). Byrne's bodhran style takes a bit of getting used to!
note the exclamation mark, so i am not alone,there is three of us at least hehe.
Regards
J.D
All kidding aside, bodhrán solos seem to be crowd-pleasers when performing for the general masses, but imagine a guy pulling that out in a session... shudder... (Oh hell, I just said "performing" and "session" in the same sentence - now who's stirring the pot? Sorry!)
Dow, but if we agree in that the bodhran is a substitute for dancers, what follows is that if there are dancers we don't need bodhrans, because the dancers will do they own rhythm. Therefore a bunch of dancers is the only instrument that is required for ITM.
If you take that attitude Fishmonger then a discussion forum is not for you. If you don't want people to disagree with you then write a book and don't read the reviews.
Obviously you do not NEED a percussion instrument to make trad music. If that was the case then half the best trad is and was not music at all.
'Boy, would I love to go a round with a couple of you knuckleheads. Though I don't think it would take me that long.'
?
i thought you were supposed to be in love?
or you were on May 19th at least.
fwiw,percussion is not 'NEEDED' for this music and if you would only apply the rest of your brain that's not involved in love and pugilistic perorations to this fact then we can all stop trembling at the thought of your mighty prowess in the boxing ring.
i agree with that poster who said about how it works well when the bodhrán player adds some drama. Also agree about needing to follow the changes of the tunes and not just banging along
also agree with those people fed up with bodhrán players who make lots of "interesting" sounds with their drums but don't fit it into the tune
"I would bet money that most here on the session cannot play traditional music -Irish or otherwise withour resorting to a predisposition for pop music and it's effects and affects.
You have to drop those nasty habits... its not your fault... the world has molded and shaped you into thinking that music needs "these three things etc..." Its all just garbage and if you can't drop the garbage, then you have no idea what traditional music is all about." -McCracken
I just love it when someone presumes that they are good enough to tell everyone else how they *should* and *shouldn't* play. Especially when they have nothing in their bio. I'm sure I would be SHOCKED - completely SHOCKED at the musical Genius that McCracken possesses - but I have to admit....I just don't care.
I like a good tasteful bodhran - no it isn't necessary. But I like it all the same.
Well I know I worded this thread a little too provocatively so the degeneration is probably all my own fault.
I purposely didn't try and reply to every posting mainly because I was too busy playing tunes last night Not a dancer or Bodhran in sight. But I did sit down now and read every single post.
As I suppose I should have expected only a few actually addressed the main issue I was raising and Its great to know that Michael thinks I'm a NoBrainer! I wonder did he ever get a chance to have that session with BB to find out whether the best was good enough for him.
"I like a good tasteful bodhran - no it isn't necessary. But I like it all the same."
That's where I would stand too but I was interested to know what makes a person think Bodhran playing is good or otherwise. Obviously it helps if it is in time and does not dominate the melody and the player knows the tunes; but beyond that what makes it really good? Is it something to do with mimicking good dancing?
There's one good reason why the bodhran is not and never will be a substitute for dancers. And that is that you play for dancers, dancers don't dance for you. Though there maybe some truth out of the observation that all the bodhran players I've ever met think you are playing for them.
What I mean when I refer to the music being liberated from the dancing is merely that you play for yourself.
(p.s. It's that fishmonger who has no brain, not you Donough. I find your discussion intriguing. I disagree, but am happy to debate. Yes, the drum isn't necessary and I'll happily debate this topic with anyone who agrees with this)
yes Donough you were right just mention bodhran and the bashers come out of their little wormholes. There must be something in that rural Leitrim air. 'Believe me there are far more bad fiddle, banjo, guitar, flute players around than bodhran players.' We might agree with the reference to guitarists, but it's a lot harder to be a bad fiddler than a bad percussionist." From what I hear around the sessions its not all that hard to be a bad fiddler, fluter or harmonica player, quite easy in fact. Sad thing though is these people are so full of their own importance they usually fail to realise this fact and continue to regale us with their own particular brand of horrible music. Thankfully there are enough good bodhran players around to keep these chancers in time and in line!
Somebody shoot McCracken's horse.
Any musician I've met who has commented on my playing - and plenty have - has said (words to the effect that ) they like the extra drive and lift that the bodhran brings, and that sometimes my playing is too gentle for the session.
So I feel my role as a bodhran player at a session is to add an extra lift to a tune. I rarely play if I don't know a tune, or I play quietly while I get the feel for it.
Incidentally, my *purpose and intent* when joining a session is most often to enjoy myself in good company.
"all the bodhran players I've ever met think you are playing for them."
You should get out a bit more, llig!
Yes, it is true that I have never enjoyed a tune with a bodhran. However, I'm may be a cynic, but at least I'm in incorrigibly optimistic cynic. So I live in hope.
It's not something I do often, but I played for dancers at the weekend, and the one thing that made it easier and more enjoyable was the fact that the drummer (kit) in the band is really really good.
or did the dancers dance for you, silly man (or woman). Now with that big ego of yours I'd say so. Just wondering did some bodhran player break your little heart and is that what has made you so cynical. The music is there to be enjoyed by all, we're only on this planet for a short time, who are you to despite and critise anyone elses attempts to join in the tune.
there seems to be a bit of disillusioned opinions on enjoying the music on this thread.
'the music is there to be enjoyed by all, we're only on this plaet for a short time, who are you to despite and criticise anyone else attempts to join in the tune'. i think people who are sitting in a session enjoying themselves have a right to complain if any bad musician which includes bad fiddle players, flute, and bodhran etc., joins their session and starts to unbalance it. yes the music is there to be enjoyed by all but i know that if something like that happens and threatens not just mine but everyone else in the session enjoyment then you know, someones going to say something.
it has nothing to do with 'ego' or anything like that. people just want to enjoy playing. if a person isn't a greatt musician or is just starting off than they should know better if they can hear themselves that a session is beyond them and should find one that suits them more. this is not bodhran bashing or anything, this goes for all instruments, the problem though with the bodhran is that it is not that difficult (compared to other instruments, im sure its difficult when you get onto the complicated rythms and other bits) to get a rythm out of, i dont even play the bodhran and i can always get something out of it even though it mightn't be great to play with. that sort of development gives people the mindset 'right im well able to go out and play'.
i'm not saying thats the case with everyone but you can see what i mean.a lot of it has to do with etiquette, if we did everything that some people here are saying sessions would be a free for all and be disastrous.
Just a gentle nudge backwards towrad the topic intended.(I know I have said before how I love a thread hijack).
For those of you who DO have some time for an occasional bit of Bodhran, do you think that good quality has something to do with mimicking good dancers?
I hasten to add that this in no way is to suggest that we can only play for dancers or a bodhran player. Heck even a few of the tunes I played last night in pure solitude gave me a bit of a buzz. Not sure that the dog was too happy though.
Even if someone of the Best standard was to join our session I would be glad if he didn't play on everything. But then the good ones know when to back off.
I've recently began play for dancers and quite enjoy doing so. Though I tend to ease back and let them fill in the the beats, by that I mean I play in a less, dare I say it, ornamented manner. It's hard to say whether its necessary in dancing i.e. if we have the dancers do we need a Bodhrán or if there's a Bodhrán do we need he dancers. I think it boils down to the nature of the performance. Not as many dancers turn up to sessions as Bodhrán players which may be reason this thread has spun a little on the basher side.
I hadn't thought about the role of filling in dance steps when I first picked up and began playing Bodhrán. In my case I follow the the rhythm set down by the tune being played. I think sensitivity to the music is extremely important unfortunately not all Bodhrán players display this in session settings.
Returning to your point about Junior Davey, I can see what you mean by the fills he used on that particular recording. Junior has reverted to a more motor rhythm style of play in later recordings, backing Carmel Gunning on her CD "The Sligo Maid"
This change in playing style is evident on his last recording "A Sound Skin" a very Johnny McDonagh style. So a lot of what you describe in Juniors playing has altered through the course of time. I think the recording with Declan demonstrates the influence of the developing "top-end" style of play, championed by Mr J.J. Kelly around the time "Skin & Bow" was recorded. This type of playing style became popular from the mid 90's onwards. Tops, pops and trills have continued ever since, not my style of playing but each to their own. Is that any closer to answering you're initial post? probably not but it's filled up a bit of time before I begin cooking dinner.
If I try to take out the word "for". Do you sometimes find that enjoying playing with dancers is in any way similar to playing with a good bodhran. If you don't like bodhran playing Michael this question kind of excludes you . Normally I do respect your opinion but right now I am only asking those people who like a bit of goat bashing.
Newdeafman, thanks for your comments - very interesting but not quite what I was looking for. Yet maybe the Tops Pops and Trills are a form of dance step imitation.
Maybe the music has moved on so much that in a session it really is not dance music anymore. Yet when I see feet tapping and seated legs jumping, I can't help but feel that this is still dance music at heart.
The Rhythm is in the melody but I can't help feel that just as meaning is in my words when i speak, it is easier to follow meaning by the tone of my voice than if I speak in a monotone. Similarily the Bodhran is enunciating more obviously the rhythm part of the melody. Not necessary but it can be nice.
"Similarily the Bodhran is enunciating more obviously the rhythm part of the melody." Actually, it doesn't. It just repeats the rythmn of the melody. You may think it enunciates more, and this maybe the case with a good bodrhan player and a "chancer" tune player, as Molly puts it. But not with a good tune player.
For those responding to me, look at what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I didnt bash bodhrans at all and it is true in my experience that MOST musicians in the world today who play Irish music in sessions are predisposed to popular music and its rules, structures, "chord progressions", chord charts, sheet music, and all that goes with it. It's just the way it is and alot of people dont want to get rid of that baggage and NEED to realize that it doesn't have anything to do with traditional music . Im not on a high horse, but just observing... Its obvious to me when someone at a session will ask me "What are the chords to that?." Especially here in the USA... even on the pro-semi pro level ---- look at the "Irish" "Celtic" festivals and look at the acts playing.... You've got McKracky Whacky and the Flaming Shamrocks with electric guitars and kilts and someone... usually one player who may have an idea of a jig or reel but not really, thrashing out noise for the McMoshers and the O' I Luv Me Pints crowd. Who's on the freakin high horse? Me? Because I say that traditional music is good enough the way it is???? Come down to the barn floor and shovel the sh*t with me because Im right where I want to be!
My idea of heaven is being a partner with a fiddle player who also plays bodhran. I play flute and bodhran. We could then play flute and fiddle, flute and bodhran or fiddle and bodhran. We wouldn't need anything else (although a guitar wouldn't hurt).
Boy, that took a long time to get to the bottom of this thread! You must be all unemployed or something.....
I guess if you don't dance then a bodhran might fill in that need quite nicely. I mean ...considering that maybe we were once apes and our hands and feet had roughly the same kind of communication with our brains. I don't play the bodhran so I don't consider that what I might say about one would add anything to this discussion. But I do dance. I've taught other kinds of traditional dance for years and started dancing Irish two years ago. It's true that dancers tend to be less sensitive to the music, that is if they don't play an instrument themselves. But if you have the luck to do both, the music is very much enhanced by dancing to it. So I suspect that can happen to the bodhran player too. Melody is terribly important to Irish music and is solely responsible for its variety. If I'm dancing to a really nice reel or slip jig - and I'm talking about soft shoes - the melody carries me through the turns and jumps and I try to stretch and shorten them to give the music and dance that extra something. This would perhaps be the sensitive bodhran player at work? Hard shoes dancing is more a rhythmic business. But it's an exciting way to experience the tune. Come on apes - homo sapiens thumps with his feet! Maybe you need to come out from behind your fiddles and flutes and jump around.
C. Nicolas
Since I began playing this music with some other musicians at a local Irish Session in 1995, I have felt that the harmony and the rhythm were implied in the melodies or tunes which were being played. It was the responsibility of myself and the bodhran player to figure out the rhythms and the harmony implied in the melody in order to accompany the melody players properly.
At an Irish Session, the purpose of the accompanying instruments such as a bodhran is to enhance and support the melody playing. It is not to lead the group and/or to set the rhythm.
I have tried dancing with a local contradance society who dance to live music and I felt like I was being rewarded when I was asked to join the band because the piano player quit. I was glad because I no longer had to dance. Instead, I could concentrate on playing the piano.
Besides piano, I play bass (both acoustic and electric) and I have frequently participated in jam sessions where there was no drummer and I had to try to keep the rhythm steady without any help because I was the bass player.
I have also played music in situations where there was a drummer to work with and, if the drummer knows what he or she is doing, it is very enjoyable.
For example, several years ago, I sat in at an Irish Session in San Antonio, Texas which had three female bodhran players. Yes, all three of these women had a superb sense of timing and rhythm. They were a pleasure to work with.
The harmony and the rhythm are most definately not merely implied in the melodies. Harmony and rhythm ARE what the melodies are made of. This is a very important distinction.
Michael, I am certainly not arguing with you on that last point. My point about enunciating the beat with a bodhran was not to suggest that it (beat) isn't already there in the melody. So you don't need it (bodhran) but then I can play in time without dancers as well but I do like to play with/for/to dancers.
I don't agree that the melodies are made of harmony and rhythm. There's clearly rhythm in them. You can assign 'harmonies' to them if you really want to impose the standards of Western Art music or pop on them. But - the old tunes at least - are essentially *melodic*. There is no need to think of them as being made up of 'harmonies' at all.
I realise that Michael, and others, have not agreed with me on this one. It's probably my fault for not explaining myself better. I've done my best in the paragraph above.
Let's say you play a jig in Dmaj. The first note is the root, D, the next it the third, Fsharp, the next is the fifth, A. There you have the first half of the 6 on 8. The next half starts on a G, then a B, then a D. The melody has set up the rhythm of a jig, 6/8 and has also made two triads, one Dmaj and the next Gmaj.
The harmony has not been implied by any stretch of imagination, it IS the construction of the tune. Just because the notes in the triads are not played simultaneously does not mean it's not harmony.
And the rhythm of 6/8 is constructed of two complimenting triplets.
Harmony is melody stacked up and melody is harmony rolled out - can't remember who I am quoting on this but its not original. Now I had better take my pills before I start agreeing completely with Michael
After my words of wisdom and llig's generous sharing of wisdom, how can this discussion still be going on?
Drop the techno garbage, drop your classical and pop baggage and believe in the tunes... and play the tunes. Trust the tunes... they don't need your contamination.
If you are struggling to understand what it's all about, listen to Matt Molloy.
-McCracken, (who will be attacked for believing in the music.)
Its not that you'll be attacked for believing in the music - it’s that you actually make no sense at all.... what are you talking about?? This thread is about bodhráns - not techno....my god. PS - it’s usually the people who say things like;
""I would bet money that most here on the session cannot play traditional music -Irish or otherwise without resorting to a predisposition for pop music and it's effects and affects." McCracken
who don’t know what they are talking about or how to play....I have a really good friend of the same surname as yours - she is a really fantastic player and you are giving her a bad name.
I didn’t know that being from the states makes you an expert in traditional music.....very strange...
I know what you're getting at, Michael, and some tunes are more 'harmonic' than others. It's just that I think one can get a much better idea of where the tunes are coming from if you think linearly *along* the melody of the tune. I think that's how they work best and how they were originally derived. Not from harmony.
I accept I'm not going to be able to explain myself to you on this one.
Benhall - FWIW you are giving me the impression of each note being percieved against a receding memory of the ones that went before it, and their harmonics, and in anticipation of the ones that are coming next. Rather than somehow being nestled in with a litle group of notes making up a chord. If a theorist told me that was what was happening when I enjoyed a traditional melody I would tend to accept is as a credible model. This is not off-topic from my perspective. I rapidly gave up trying to guitar bash at sessions when I realised that my brain did not do harmony - took up bodhran instead (and learnt from the good strummers)
Ben, the reason you can't explain yourself is because you don't know what harmony is. The example I gave of the jig was deliberately a straight forward one to try to get you to understand that lines of notes derive their melodic forms through our subconscious appreciation of harmony, (not, by the way, through any technical knowledge of it).
You can't say that some tunes are more harmonic that others. It's like saying that one brick wall is more "bricky" than another brick wall. One may have a more obvious pattern than the next, but they are both made of bricks.
A more subtle tune than the example I gave might follow a more unusual series of notes, say an Fsharp to a Cnat, where the sense of the structure can only come from the wider context of more of the tune. But it's still all harmony. That interval, Fsharp to a Cnat, has a very different meaning if your root is either D or G.
David, it reminds me of a discussion here where people were expressing a preference for tunes they described as weird, but what they were actually referring to was tunes that had a major third and a flattened seventh. They had ears brought up on music that didn't do this. To their pre conditioned appreciation of what works harmonically, this scale sounded weird. It doesn't sound weird to me because I've heard it all my life. And it should start to sound more normal to others, the longer they hear it.
Of course you should think linearly *along* the melody of the tune. That is how they work best and how they were originally derived. But to say that this shouldn't be done from a harmonic perspective is like saying a meal is best appreciated by tasting each individual thing on your plate one after the other, but with disregard to how the ingredients compliment each other.
So, to say that your brain does not do harmony, is to say that your brain does not do melody. And this gets to the crux of my disliking of bodhrans: So, David, the purpose of the bodhran for you is that your brain does not do melody. I'm afraid that this disability would make you a poor drummer.
Actually Ben, I apologise. The reason you can't explain your self is because you don't technically know what harmony is. But by your postings here and elsewhere, I'd say that you more than likely do know what harmony is. Being able to explain it technically is not a prerequisite, it's not even all that helpful. Knowing a good tune when you hear one is what it's about, and this uses pre conditioned subconscious appreciation of harmony. Which is more than enough. You do not need to know why you like a tune you like. If this could be explained technically, then we could get machines to write good tunes. But we can't.
Michael, I am following your explanation. And I did say "the ones that went before it, *and their harmonics*". When I read up about how we percieve sound I don't find perceptual psychologists talking about harmony and chords. They talk about octaves and harmonics, they talk about what we perceive when we hear one note after another, or at the same time, and the unexpected things that can be perceived by playing tricks with the harmonic contents. They talk in a way that makes flattened major thirds 'normal'. Your "subconscious appreciation of harmony" is a reference in musicians terms to a musicians model of what is happening (and no argument that it is a good model). I really feel for those guys in the churches back in the middle ages who got upset when people starting singing more than one note at a time.
No, after at least 45 years of enjoying folk tunes and bagpipe music I would not use the term wierd. Wierd is what happens in jazz, or what Shetland guitarists do under folk tunes. Wierd is learning to sing my part in a diminished 7th chord (I think that was what was told it was) in an accapella choir. Wierd is Frank Zappa and many of the other 'influences' mentioned by several regulars here on a recent thread.
Anyhow, since we are talking about drums, I will just take to opportunity to disagree with you about tuning on bodhrans (you have mentioned it on several other threads). They really do change in pitch when you twiddle those adjusters, or warm them, or wet them or push them a bit harder with the left hand. And players do it because some pitches sound better against tunes plays in particular keys. Sort of "this doesn't sound right maybe try pushing a bit less, or hitting it somewhere else". Is that harmony ?
Jazz only sounds weird to you because you are not used to that kind of harmony. Your average Joe Western has had his ears conditioned to accept the normal major scale as normal (and 4/4 for that matter). The percaptual psychologist should be taking into account the cultural conditioning.
My "subconscious appreciation of harmony" is most certainly not a reference to a musician's model of what is happening. It's a reference to anyone's cultural exposure to what they consider to be normal music.
With reference to tuning of bodhrans in sessions, it's worth noting in the orchestral field that the tympani drums are tunable - tymps that are out of pitch with what the rest of the orchestra is doing make their presence felt in a very undesirable way.
Michael. I was agreeing with you about cultural conditioning. But when you used "subconscious appreciation of harmony" above you followed it with "(not, by the way, through any technical knowledge of it)." so I understood you to mean something like what we get in books on music theory. With cultural conditioning something can be enjoyable becuase it is familiarand comfortable or becuase it is different (wierd). A note can raise emotion either because it is exactly what our brain is expecting (be that withing a stacked or linear view of things) or because it is not (either not an 'expected' note, or not quite pitched as expected).
You don't have to go very far geographically within Europe to find plenty examples of scales that would make anyone trained only in the classical harmonic structures of Western European music scratch his head in despair at trying to harmonise tunes using those scales. For instance, consider this scale used in Muntania (a district of Wallachia) in the Balkans: A - cnat – c# - d# - e – f# - gnat – a. The best approach is probably to use drones.
In a lot or recorded music (I am not sure about sessions) there can be a very definite sense of a downbeat that is very steady and even, so you could feel happy walking jogging or dancing to it but the actual notes are being articulated so that few if any are exactly on a beat in the way a mandolin picked to a metronome (or a MIDI file) would be. But the beat is still there. Michael has said on other threads that the volume effects the perception of timing (interesting, more please).
Questions. In that situation does a thump from a bodhran sounding on the beat 'fit' or does it annoy melody players (assuming that they don't have a blanket objection to drums) ? And when playing "this music" for dancers do melody players tend to bring the apparent attack of the note onto that beat ( for the likes of Scottish country dance bands the answer is clearly yes) ?
David, yes, I think that you've made an interesting distinction between playing for dancers and playing for yourself. I think that for dancers it's important to have that timing spot on. But that doesn't mean I'd attack that downbeat, whether playing for dancers or not, I'd still vary it. But when I'm playing for dancers I'll usually have a drummer with me.
But when playing for myself (with others, playing for themselves, and ourselves) I/we'd want everyone to be listening and reacting to each others playing. The thump of a bodhran sounding on the beat is most definitely a distraction, to say the least. The last thing you want in an ensemble is someone listening to their internal clock (even if it's an extremely accurate and reliable internal clock) and ignoring everyone else.
I think it has to do with what McCracken's been on about. In a rock band, the lead guitar player looks to the drummer for that rock steady thing. That's what rock music is, that relentless power of kick snare kick snare.
But don't transfer this value set to diddley music. Yes, it should be rock steady, that comes from the melody.
It all comes from the melody. Everything is in the melody. Everything is in that line of notes.
OK, thanks. I don't think the drummer would be following a personal internal clock though. The regular beat that I would tap my foot to seems to be defined by what the melody players are doing, a communal internal clock that the drummer should be following, not part of. Maybe the beat that people talk of playing ahead of ?
bb said to me--- ....I have a really good friend of the same surname as yours - she is a really fantastic player and you are giving her a bad name.
I didn’t know that being from the states makes you an expert in traditional music.....very strange...
I gave examples to back up my point... you don't agree, that's fine, but it really doesn't matter where I'm from and you are attacking me personally when I attacked none...
I know I said I'd be back later to try and explain again ...
... but I'm too tired ...
It's not that I don't understand harmony. I studied it at a serious level for many years. I also understand melody. It is possible for melodies to exist without having any reference at all to 'harmony' as such. To go from one extreme - take Indian ragas. They are melodic in nature. I think it is beneficial to think of Irish melodies in that sort of way.
It's not 'right' (ie the *only* way), but it's also not 'right' (ie the only way) to think of them as 'harmonic'. I just think it's beneficial my way. And, if you can get it, you will find that 'eureka moment' of true enlightenment.
I don't get it ben. How can a D note followed by an A note not have any reference at all to it being the interval we are familiar with that we call a fifth? The only "melody" I can think of that can exist without any reference to harmony would be a tune with only one note in it. (like a drum I suppose).
Just read a few comments so far, I have been away at Trade Union Conference, plotting the downfall of the multi-nationals, boring sessions and some Australians.
A few comments from Fiddleruairi gave me pause for immediate thought.
"Johnny McDonagh is the best out there". Really? If you accept that the bodhran should be complimenting the music, rather than dominating it, it would be difficult to find a "best" player. I have over the last few weeks heard many a player as good as Johnny, some very young players as well, which is encouraging. I suppose it should be "Johnny McDonagh is my favourite". Loads of people would list me as their favourite, just depends who you ask.
As for the old school, Coleman et al, not even having bodhrans in their day, to an extent that is a fallacy. Sean O'Riada did not patent and invent a bodhran, he revived and popularised it. There were some bodhran players around. However the Coleman era was worse, as they used vamping pianos which is dreadful.
As for describing Frankie Gavin as "arrogant", I must say he has always been very shy and humble when playing at any session with me.
the problem though with the bodhran is that it is not that difficult (compared to other instruments, im sure its difficult when you get onto the complicated rythms and other bits) to get a rythm out of, i dont even play the bodhran and i can always get something out of it even though it mightn't be great to play with. that sort of development gives people the mindset 'right im well able to go out and play'.
i'm not saying thats the case with everyone but you can see what i mean.a lot of it has to do with etiquette, if we did everything that some people here are saying sessions would be a free for all and be disastrous.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Oh dear, oh dear.
Now you know why bodhrans get a bad name, and I used to blame tourists who thought it was easy, bought a drum and "got something out of it". Turns out frustrated fiddle players do it as well.
My dear Fiddle ruairi, you are beginning to sound like the type of person Frankie Gavin would call "an arrogant fiddler".
Story. I recently accompanied a lady to Eamon Maguire's workshop as she wanted to purchase a drum. Immediately spotted a nice small, tunable drum, absolutely beautiful. The lady however spotted a larger drum, similar to my own, and opined that it was louder, so would that not be better. Eamon quickly said "depends on how many sessions you want to ruin".
I am sorry McCracken - I admit I got a little carried away. Though I still dont understand why you should be giving others tips on how to better themselves on traditional musicians - and your are right - it doesnt matter where you are from. I've head some mighty fine players in the states.
Good story Bliss. But after she expressed her preferance for the louder one, could you not have just changed your mind and said, actually, I'm not gonna let you buy one afterall.
While I agree with your sentiments Mr Llig, especially as the lady can play the whistle to a degree and I have urged her to concentrate on that, do you know Eamon Maguire?
Most likely he would have made two bodhrans out of my skin for deterring his customers.
Llig is right. Say if you have a tune that starts |eAcA eAcA| it sounds good to us because it's outlining an A minor chord. If it was |_eA^cA _eAc^G| it wouldn't sound like Irish music. I think you need to step back a bit Ben and see the whole picture.
Now if you play |eAcA eAcA| on the pipes and use a D drone underneath it... *that's* what makes Irish music interesting for me, because it's asking to resolve to G, and of course in the old traditional tunes it does. It's the structure of the tunes that makes playing the music like putting on an old, comfy pair of slippers.
As llig says, the music *is* harmony, as well as rhythm and melody. It's everything, even without adding bodhrans and guitars in the mix. And no, Ben, I'm afraid the harmony has very little to do with what you learned on whatever classical course you did. Classical rules need not apply
Even without considering the relationship between notes there's still harmony in the music. For example on a stringed instrument like a fiddle, banjo or a mandolin there are notes ringing through others. Even on an instrument like pipes, whistle or flute the sound of one note does not finish the instant you play another.
You almost always put reverb or similar effect on a recorded instrument as it fills out the sound and makes it sound more natural. So I would say the tune contains melody, rhythm and harmony, what's added is personal taste. Sometimes I like playing with a bodhran sometimes I don't. But the same goes for other instruments too.
Yes to what bogman said, not to mention harmonics. Every note you play on your instrument isn't just one note, you're playing harmony the whole time with other notes sounding like the octave, the 5th in the next octave, and (roughly) the 3rd and flat 7 in the upper octaves. These aren't inaudible. They're actually sounding loud and clear, especially on good instruments in a room with good acoustics. They're what make the tunes ring all about you when everyone's in tune with each other. The overtones suggest all sorts of different harmonies and textures if you listen to them and you listen to what your mates are doing with them and respond to it.
jesus are people still debating this thread. i thought it was long finished.
glad to see my comments are being taken into account bodhran bliss. maybe if you read some of my others you might have taken those last ones into context.
about johnny ringo, this is one area where there is no case of someone being just a favourite. i mentioned earlier that the best person (and ANYONE that i have met which is a lot of people) to judge how good a bodhran player is, isn't a bodhran player. of course you do get the sensible ones that know good playing when they hear it, but the bottom line bliss is that the bodhran is accompanying the music, and whether you like it or not, you dont have to be a bloody arrogant fiddle player to know it ( which i am NOT, i may come across like that because i know what i like, and i know what other musicians think because ive been on the scene far too long not to), you can play any instrument, the bodhran is still an accessory and it will always be up to the person who the bodhran is accompanying (obviously the melody player) whether they like them playing with them or not.
yes, i know you may think that there are lots of great young bodhran players out there, ive heard them too (since i am only twenty one myself [and if you are wondering about my earlier comment, i have been on the scene for that long, literally my whole life thats what being in a musical family does to you, you might think i sound arrogant again, but thats because you don't know me personally, i really amn't]. there are loads of bodhran players that are far better technically than johnny mcdonagh, they can do all of the fancy rythmical stuff, all the fancy offbeats and rolls and pops and whatever you want to call it. i would call watery bodhran playing, its very 'plippity-ploppity'. many musicians including myself, find this playing incredibly distracting playing, the whole idea of the bodhran is to compliment the music and keep things steady while still providing the necessary lift, but this type of bodhran playing is just totally 'takeover the session' type stuff. how can anyone concentrate when a player like that is doing a bodhran solo while you're playing? ive heard many people play with this type of bodhran thinking it sounds cool, but it just sounds bad. there have been numerous occassion where the person would be far better off without it. the bodhran is suppose to be subtle, thats the beauty of it, but when ye have people playing like yer man from flook for gods sake it just turns into a farce. one of the best gigs i went to was patsy hanley and john carlos in the cobblestone with johnny ringo in bodhran. two flutes together you might think the bodhran could overpower them but, because he understands that bodhran playing is secondary to the music, it was great! there is no point being technically brilliant like all those other style of players when you dont understand the role of the instrument and what it is like for the other person playing. i dont know how you play yourself, i may be pleasantly surprised.
also, did i mention that i play the bodhran in public? if i was seen bringing a bodhran into a session with some of my friends they would probably take the p*ss out of me. there is only one bodhran player that we allow to play with us and surprisingly he is very like johnny mcdonagh. the last time i TOUCHED a bodhran must have been more than five or six years ago even though we have some in the house.
if i was frustrated i wouldn't still bloody well be playing the fiddle these past thirteen years would i? if you still think so look me up on youtube if you must. Im on one of those bloody comhaltas videos (which legally speaking they should have asked me first). the only thing frustrating me is some of the people on this site, who in a pub if any of those 'brown-nosing mcgoldrick lovers' said the same things they would promptly be told where to go.
i think my comments about anyone being able to get a beat or 'sound' out of it ( i did say that, i also never said it was a good sound) are well jusitified. kevin crawford can play one, harry bradley can also, dave sheridan, john carty, john williams, ive seen ALL of my friends play one, ive seen my brother who plays the flute play one for gods sake, the list could go on.
bodhran players may not like it but it is just a fact of life that it is melody players first, bodhran and accompanying second. thats just the way it is. it is useless to talk about bodhran and something like a flute or concertina in the same breath, they are on different musical planets. some however forget this...
and of course frankie gavin is shy and humble in a session, do you think he actually wants to be bothered by other people he doesn't know? come on! almost everyone has heard every story about frankie, he is probably even more cranky now that he is broke! he's only interested in conversing with people he knows ( my family have never had a problem simply because of the fact he's known my mother for since he was a teen, i doubt he would talk to us if that wasn't the case,), and i dont blame him, it was probably annoying all those years having people come up to him the whole time insisting on talking to him about his work. although needless to say i've never been that stupid (although im pretty sure some of the people on this site would disagree soon enough) lol.
to sum up, well just read everything i've just written cause i couldn't be a-r-s-e-d writing again. unlike some people who will gladly tear this comment apart i wont be contributing to this site anymore because i would rather discuss things like this with people i know and who i respect, i don't know what music most people on this site listen to and what they play like as musicians and what they know. how can you have a meaningful discussion like this when there is so much bullsh*tting. ( i can see the comments now! 'oh you must be a bullsh*tter because you dont have a bio'! lol. well you know you are dealing with lackwits when you get ones like that eh? )
anyway im off to hughes' (in Dublin for any of you non-irish) for some tuneskies. come to the john mckenna fest in drumkeerin next weekend if you want some tunes (only the good ones mind {and no bodhrans! ah no only joking, i had to get that one in! lol}) i shall leave you all with a piece of advice: why spend time on this site when you can go and play music! if there is something you need to learn, just listen to the music. everything you need to know is right there in the music, you just have to make good use of it! discussions on this site and some of the people that contribute will only frustrate you like they have me over the past just two weeks ive been using this site ( and i know ive frustrated some aswell, but ye know people think differently). its different when you discuss with friends because at the end of the day you might have different opinions, but we respect each other and love the music. there is too much trivialising going on here, the music is meant to be played! just appreciate the music for what it is, and enjoy the fact that we are able to listen to so many different musicians.
you'll get far more out of playing and listening than any amount of discussing on this site. so just go and do it!!
now that ive got that off my chest... bring on the onslaught! (because i wont be around to see it! lol!)
ahh, Ruairi, don't let a little spirited discussion drive you away...
Of course it's better to discuss these things with people you know and respect, but if you stick around long enough, you'll find that there are a good number good people here to get to know an respect. And we can't all be out playing music all the time, so this site gives us an outlet to think about and discuss (or argue about) the music we love.
You have a unique perspective into the music, and are a useful addition to the site. And being the great player that you are only helps. The nice thing about an expansive, world-wide forum like this, is that it gives people that don't live in a place surrounded by the music some different perspectives, and that's a good thing. (People have to learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff, which is the difficult part, of course...)
On this site I have always mentioned the "humble bodhran". I always claim to be the "best in the world" albeit on a humble instrument. Of course the bodhran is to compliment the music, in a subtle manner.
For example, my favourite experiences are ONE flute, and me. I like the "old fashioned" style myself, and playing alongside a flute player is great. Not every young drummer plays top end and rolls and such.
As for bodhran solos, I have said a thousand times, "Why would anyone want to play a solo on the bodhran". What's the point?
John Joe by the way can be subtle at a session.
And although I can play the odd tune on a whistle and banjo, I wouldn't dream of saying they must be easy instruments to play. I also play 25,000 slow airs on the mandolin, and accompany songs, but will never be a good player. I can even play a tune on a piano, that doesn't mean it is an easy instrument.
Mind you, I was only playing for 21 years when you were born, so I suppose that makess me a lackwit.
Could I suggest you take things less seriously. The site does have a lot of wind ups, I do it often, but you could also learn a lot.
Oh for god sakes fiddlerurai - its bloody personal taste! Brown nosing McGoldrick lovers indeed.
Boring - you know - I personally love the modern take on stuff - its my thing I love it. I grew up in a very pure drop trad house as well. So I think I am actually qualified to choose what I like. I never slag of pure drop people. But the fact that you just sit there spouting all this nonesense - about so and so being the best, and you only allowing so and so in your session because he plays this way is a joke!!!
You sound like a pure drop snob and you must be so proud that Comhltas has you on their website - I cringe when I hear that someone belongs to them. But each to their own....grow up - though at 21 youve a long way to go.
Bliss, if you are still out there can you re-read my first post. I would love to hear whether you think there is any link between good bodhran playing and dancing other than the obvious - being in time.
My original suggestion/question was about whether the bodhran acts as a substitute for the dancer in a session environment.
Certainly there is a link. When I see melody players stamping their foot to keep time I usually suggest they should either play a bodhran, or allow the drum to keep the time. That however requires the ability to listen to others, a trait some melody players struggle with.
The bodhran replaces the sound of the dancing feet, and if played correctly, should be a bit more subtle than the dancers.
A lot of these rolls and such were introduced because session musicians speed up the tunes, playing at a pace where dancers would not be able to keep up.
Yep, I dislike what I see as an artificial division between player and accompanist. However, I appreciate that the discipline of listening is usually more accomplished in those who accompany. This is very bad and there is no excuse (other than the fact that they were taught to play tune from charts rather from listening, of course).
Several people have said that they don't like a bodhran player who plays the same beat all time, and prefer one who "follows the tune" (whatever that is interpreted to mean).
My present attitude comes from personal experience:
Back in the 70's I sort of learned uilleann pipes, whistle, flute, and bodhran all at the same time (a method which I don't recommend). As a melody player, I knew the tunes and did my best, when playing drum, to come up with something that shadowed the tune as closely as possible.
I thought I was playing great: "look at me! I can almost play the whole f***ng tune on the drum!".
Then one night some old Irish guy shows up with a bodhran. I just put mine away and listened. He played the same reel beat all night. He was fantastic! He was SUPPORTING the music, adding an UNDERLYING BEAT, not futilely attempting to play the tunes.
Around the same time (late 70's) I saw the terrific Quebecois group La Boutine Souriante (sp?). They played reel after reel with a continuous accompaniment of their feet beating out a basic 1,34 1, 34 beat, the same beat the old Irish bodhran guy was using.
Early on in this thread somebody put forward the idea of the bodhran sort of being a bass. I agree: the bodhran's purpose is to add a basic underlying pulse as well as adding a bass voice to the otherwise trebley music.
I don't care at all for the "neo-bodhran" and its players who add constant high pinging going up and down in pitch like an out-of-control timpani.
Having researched a bit in Wikipedia, I discover that "...the bodhrán itself did not gain wide recognition as a legitimate musical instrument until the Irish traditional music resurgence in the 1950s....". It would therefore appear to be a relative newcomer to traditional irish music. How did we fiddle players et al ever manage without them before this?
Having also researched a bit in Wikipedia, I discover that "...the fiddle itself did not gain wide recognition as a legitimate musical instrument until the bodhrán gained wide recognition as a legitimate musical instrument in the Irish traditional music resurgence in the 1950s....". It would therefore appear to be a relative newcomer to traditional irish music.
How did we accordion players et al ever manage without them before this?
I'm a dancer. I play bodhran. I love melody and i love rhythm. If I'm dancing I want different moods in the music - major and minor, light and dark, depth and texture - a well-played bodhran brings a richness to the overall sound that no other instrument can replicate. A lousy musician is a lousy musician whether playing bodhran, fiddle, guitar or whistle - and any of them can ruin the session and the pleasure.
I think the sad part is so many people get caught up in what is traditional, what isn't, when we should have a bodhran playing, when we shouldn't... all of these are very subjective elements to be dealt with and noone wins a conversation with what is traditional and what isn't... that's a very narrow view for narrow minded players.
The trick is what works and what doesn't, not only within' session dynamics but within' the sets and tunes themselves. There's so many different ways to play bodhran, it's been my instrument for 7 years now. I play it in a more traditional manner on some tunes with heavy 1's, a more asturian driven melodic manner on other tunes and a more modern percussive style on tunes that call for that as well... and even on top of all that, alot of times I just don't play at all, the tune simply doesn't seem to call for it. Getting caught up in the history of it all and what traditionally should be in a session or not is typically a conversation driven by dogmatic melody players who have had bad experiences with bodhran players... and understandably so... as a bodhran player I've had horrible experiences with literally every other type of melody player that crash sessions and toss. It's simply what works and what doesn't... you have to listen to the tune and support the situation... that's a rule regardless of what instrument you're holding. But the more diverse of a bodhran player you are the more you are going to find yourself welcome in sessions and even have players pulling up a chair for you... but again, that's something that attributes itself with all instruments, not just a bodhran. Some people like to say it shoud be a bass support, some just percussive, some need it to stay traditional... screw all of those people... learn all of it if you want to be a great player... from traditional to contemporary styles. You'll soon find the only people that complain about either or ar the players who can't play in that manner and use the excuse that they simply don't care for it... all that does it limit yourself as a player.
I'm a bit confused about the bodhran, I'm a young player and no one's around to teach me anything. Are we supposed to play the same beat and rhythm throughout the whole tune or can we give an accompaniment? Every time I try and do something else, I'm told off for not keeping the beat by one person, then another person goes and says that I should do something else every once in a while. I end up muffling my sound completely and keep the simplest beat possible. I look like a fool.
Purpose of Bodhran
Purpose of Bodhran
I know its a silly title for a thread but I couldn't think of anything snappier.
I was stuck in a traffic jam this morning listening to some music courtesy of Folan and Jnr Davey and it got me thinking as to what makes Bodhran playing appealing. No this is not a Bodhran bashing thread; at least not yet.
I am still trying to formulate my answer to this question but it came to me that the fundamental thing is that this is dance music and yet we play it most of the time without dancers - really weird eh!
Maybe what makes a bodhran desirable is when it takes the place of the dancers feet so in fact this has really all become "Bodhran Music"!? ITBM.
Some of Jnr Davey's playing reminded me of the sound of a good hard shoe reel/dance. Are you out there BB, can you give me your thoughts on this?
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
"No this is not a Bodhran bashing thread; at least not yet."
Give it a few seconds. Then duck.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I don't believe it has become 'Bohdran Music'. I've been to many sessions where there is no Bohdran present and the music is still lively and full of spirit.
As for the music being dance music... a lot of dancers these days don't appreciate the music they dance to... a sad fact but true.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by davydd
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Davydd I dont for a minute think that we can't play without a Bodhran. I was more looking at what makes a Bodhran player good and why. Is it because they are contributing something that is similar to what you get when you play for dancers.
For my part the bodhran players we get at sessions rarely add anything to the music but I dont mind as long as they are in time and not overly loud.
I agree that many of the young step dancers have
absolutely no regard for the music itself.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Good bohdran players will often have the same elements as a good dancer re Rhythm & Timing. Altho a dancer is often confined to set routines. Unless they can improv on the spot which is a skill few step dancers have.
I find it great when bohdran players play along with the rythm of the tune instead of playing the same beat all the time.
I've only come across a few here in Aus that do this... such as 'SirNose' and 'late in the evening'. I guess this is because they are both great tune players as well.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by davydd
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I'll second your comment about SirNose and his Bodhran playing; afraid I have never had the joy of hearing Bliss play and to come to think of it he hasn't posted lately, has he?
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
The trend in Bodhrans lately is to go for the really deep "Boomer" type . These Overpower the music and are actually out of tune (if you pardon the expression ) with the music when played without hand tension. The old sytle (shallow) type in the hands of a tasty bodhran player can give a nice lift to the music.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by murcu
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
No problem at all with the devils instrument (had one in my band in the past) - its only when the devil gets inside the player.
The devil puts it into peoples minds that you can take one into a session as soon as you buy it. You should pass your advanced driving test before you drive it in a session.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
"this is dance music and yet we play it most of the time without dancers"
This is really the crux of it. I was playing for dancers at the weekend and I can tell you it's very different music to that which I play down the pub with my mates. Not just the range of tempo, or the dynamics, or the twiddly bits, but all of it is so different. How can you say it's dance music when there are no dancers and it's not for dancers, it's ludicrous. The music I play down the pub was once dance music that's all. It should always look back and honour that tradition, but it has now been freed from that constraint. So the idea that you should introduce another constraint in the form of a bloody drum just makes me so annoyed. What's the purpose of a bodhran? What a stupid question. You can muse all you like and formulate theories and rationalise, you can give anything a purpose if you want. But the music is the music. It is complete within itself. Anything extra is mere accessory. The only purpose a bodran can ever have in this music is as an accessory.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
i agree with llig. i think sometimes the bodhran is given too much freedom, for example reagarding rythm, dictating pace, etc. the main function of a bodhran is to compliment the music, not to replace the dancers that aren't there. i always said that the best person to judge a bodhran player is someone who does not play the bodhran. i use this especially with bodhran competitions because ive heard too often these big bodhran intros to tunes, all of this watery bodhran playing (the sort of plippity ploppity sound) that i find just really distracting for melody players. there are only a couple of bodhran players that know what bodhran playing actually means, take for example johnny mcdonagh. he is the best out there because of his unassuming style, it is straight down the line with the odd phrase and fancy bit thrown in but it si far more effective than any of the over the top playing.
its not that i dont like bodhrans, it is sometimes the players that irritate me. and remember to keep it to ONE bodhran per session if any! lol.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I can't resist saying: "Different strokes for different folks" but I do agree that more than one bodhran at a time does muddy the music. The bodhran is really a versatile instrument ! One can add many effects to support the melody players. Sometimes when there is no bass player it can be used to make an "almost a bass" line. It does not have to be played through the entire tune, don't forget, it can be played softly and delicately as well as loud and accentuating. One thing about that brings me joy is when people get up and start dancing or moving in their chairs to the beat of the bodhran.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by b0dhran
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
As a box player, far be it from me to make jokes about other instruments. Lord knows box players put up with enough jokes.
Drums are pretty basic to music. Playing them is a lot more difficult that it looks.
I tend to be of the position that there are two types of bodhran player- ones who know how to play the bodhran, and those who shouldn't be playing bodhran.
I am not shy about admitting to be a member of the second group despite several noble attempts at learning the instrument.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I think that someone who can play the bodhran well and be sensitive (maybe there's a better word) to the melody players and the tune(s) being play can really add something.
On the other side, more than one at the same time is annoying.
As far as the question "What makes bodhran playing appealing?"
The bodhran is an interesting drum. In the prospective of backing a tune and melody players it's quite impressive of the rhythmic possiblities with just one stick.
I have to wonder if there is a conception for the newcomer to ITM the bodhran is easy to learn (play) and if one just play the same patterns in time over and over they'll be know as "Great". Like it is the quickest and easiest path to ITM enlightment or something.
...
Regards,
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by madfluter
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
IMHO:
I believe the same attitude can sometimes be observed from guitarists from other traditions.
The swing of much American bluegrass or Old Time music seems quite different to me, yet I have encountered quite a few gitarists who seem to think they can just jump in and apply what they know to ITM or Scottish trad (STM?). It does not seem to work that way, and brows begin.
Perhaps the answer, no doubt suggested many times and more eloquently in the last thousand bodhran threads here, is to learn some melodic instrument when first studying the style. It may make for a better understanding of the music and how it all fits together.
(This entry was brought to you by the Department Of Redundancy Department as an entry directed to you.)
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Piece
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Oops: "brows begin to knit"
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Piece
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
The purpose of the bodhran is a no brainer to me. In order to have music you must have 3 things; melody, hamony and rhythm. Fiddles, flutes, boxes, banjo, mandolin, etc cover the first two. Bodhran, bones or spoons is NEEDED for the third.
And I'd rather see an arrogant fiddler thrown out of a session than a bad bodhran player.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Ridiculous ... you think there is no rhythm in the tunes alone?
Come on now ... no brainer indeed
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
"Ridiculous ... you think there is no rhythm in the tunes alone?
Come on now ... no brainer indeed"
Ladies and Gentleman, may I now introduce "the arrogant fiddler"....
Hey llig, I'm sure when you where born "ridiculous" is what the doctor said to your mother.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Do you think there is no rhythm in the tunes alone?
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
In order to have music you must have 3 things; melody, hamony and rhythm. Fiddles, flutes, boxes, banjo, mandolin, etc cover the first two. Bodhran, bones or spoons is NEEDED for the third.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
lol, that comment above, obviously someone trying to ruffle a few feathers. lol.
anyway, about those points. i dont think you NEED a percussive instrument to have music. this all goes back to the accessory idea that llig said. a bodhran isn't a musical instrument, it is percussive, thats not an insult it is true,and im sorry if bodhran players disagree with that but it is the truth but im happy to say that GOOD bodhran players know this. they are there as a 'compliment' to the music, not as a necessity. you can;t really put it into the same category as a fiddle per se.
and i dont see the need to poke fun at the statement ' you think there is no rythm in the tunes alone?'. thats what that other comment came across as, maybe something was lost in translation i dont know. but the tunes ARE rythmic enough without a bodhran or backing. although this can depend on the player aswell, but at the heart of it the tunes are able to stand alone. ive played in plenty of great sessions without the need for bodhrans, piano, guitar etc.
and im sorry, if i had to choose between an arrogant fiddle player for instance frankie gavin, or a bad bodhran i would choose the former. if you are talking about no brainers, there is one for you.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I agree with Llig on rhythm in the tune itself. I remember when I discovered this. I was playing my whistle silently and I began to hear how finger-falls and breath streams were very rhythmic. The experience opened my eyes and ears!
I am intrigued by the concept that the bodhran is a replacement in the absense of dancers.
I think I would rather play the same three or four tunes all night with dancers than a whole night of various tunes with none. There is a big difference.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
lol, i think putting the bodhran into the same class as SPOONS just proves the point about bodhrans in a different class. it also proves my point about not needing percussion. doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the necessity or importance as you like to call it.; fiddle and flute are in one group, bodhran and spoons are in another. go figure.
mozart didnt need a bodhran to create music. lol
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Oh, we are talking about Irish Traditional Music, right?
Well, with the exception of our vocal chords, there is no more traditional instrument than the bodhran. So I guess what liig and fiddleruairi play is more of a new fangled version of traditional tunes. They just don't play it in the traditional manner.
Now I understand.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
mozart didn't play ITM
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
It’s a backing instrument, anything more and it takes away from the melody. Rhythm can be added/influenced in ITM in a number of ways. I don’t see it as being the place of a Bodhrán to dictate the pace of a tune unless the melody/players require it. Less is more in my opinion, Bodhrán is a nice addition when played well but it certainly isn’t the only way of setting a rhythm. I agree with Llig its an accessory that some enjoy and others don’t
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by newdeafman
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
yes, but you said music. maybe its you that plays something else.
well if you are talking about playing tunes in a traditional manner, well i think i would know about that seeing as i grew up in a whole family and cousins that play music. i was brought up on actual irish music ie. michael coleman, bobby casey, seamus ennis. not floggin molly or lunasa. none of the names i mentioned had or even NEEDED bodhrans.
you obviously dont understand the whole concept of irish music if you think the only way to have it is if you have ALL of those factors. so you must be saying that without a bodhran or spoons (gimme a break) that it is not music or irish music?
come on man, stop embarrassing yourself.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
yawn, yawn, yawn, how many more times are we going to have a bodhran bashing thread. I know it didn't start out as one but the "cynics" always have to have a go. One wonders if they have Irish roots at all or any understanding of our music. Lots of the older musicians played with a bodhran or a piano. these MUSICIANS were well respected. One that springs to mind is Tom Harte who was immortalised by the great Josie McDermott in Darbys Farewell. (Tom is Darby). Sadly Tom no longer plays his bodhran but is remembered by all in Roscommon with fond affection. And as for the music not being dance music. Rubbish, it started off as dance music and despite what jazz or rock or whatever twists you add to it the music is still dance music. Illeg if you are playing some tunes and nobody feels the urge to dance to it then give it up as a bad job.
Believe me there are far more bad fiddle, banjo, guitar, flute players around than bodhran players. Keep up the rhythm lads! You are appreciated.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by MollyB
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
ted furey & brendan byrne - 1967 toss the feathers
If anyone has ever heard the above,the bodhran is so overbearing its funny... for a while .I don't know about the copy write or i would put a snippet up.
I don't mind Bodhran,its best when you don't notice it too much 8) but most cant integrate it, and its the player that does the damage.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by J.D
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Well, Donough certainly knew the thread was going to degenerate into this...
The music should give people the urge to get up and dance, but it should be the melody players that are providing that feel, not the accompanists. If you're relying on the accompaniment to provide the lift, then you need to work on your playing.
Unlike Rock, Jazz, or Country music, which is built upon the rhythm section (bass & drums mostly), ITM is based on the melody. A lone melodic source stands well on its own. Any rhythmic accompaniment in Irish is really only there to enhance the music, not to be a basis for it.
I like a well played bodhran. But I certainly don't stress out when we have a session and there isn't any accompaniment.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
When I first saw a bodhran lying on a table in a session I was of the opinion that it was a tray designed for carrying pints of beer. Since then, there haven't been all that many occasions in sessions when I've needed to revise that opinion, but those rare occasions have been notable and worth hearing.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
http://sessionite.com/aoh01/pages/14.htm
Sorry.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Feardeag, thank you. My worst suspicions are confirmed!
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
A few of the old, daft things have come up here.
Firstly, the bódhran is not a traditional instrument within Irish music. (Not unless you count the tradition as being very recent indeed.)
Secondly, music does not require "3 things: melody, harmony and rhythm" - it only requires one of those, which happens to include within it a sufficiency of the other two.
btw, I am not 'bashing bódhrans'. But let's get it in the right perspective, eh?
Who knows? Michael may well be an "arrogant fiddler". But he shouldn't be called "arrogant" just for stating the bleeding obvious.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
To try to answer the original question: sometimes the right player combined with the right bodhran adds an earthy spice to the music. It's primitive sound seems to affirm that this is not your hoity-toity art music, it's something that has a long tradition with the "Plain People of Ireland," if I can use Flann O'Brien's expression. And it shares something in that respect with tin whistles and banjos.
All that said, it is still spice, and you can well have a good dinner if you leave out the spice. And you can ruin a dinner with the wrong spice or with too much spice.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Llig is right. Im amazed at how many people are ignorant of how traditional music has managed to stay alive in the minds of people for centuries. It needs no further assistance to survive. It needs no bodhran or anything else. It doesnt need records or cds or tv shows either.
Rock, blues and pops and all of its forms depend on electronics, grooves, drums, mics and other devices. Ever sit around a campfire and listen to people singing rock songs? They make strange noises with their mouths to imitate the sounds of the guitars and drums and sing what can scarcely be called a tune. Can you imagine viewing such a thing from an unobjective standpoint? It would be very strange indeed!
Take a traditional melody and hum it, whistle it, sing it and it breathes life into the world and it doesnt need anything else.
I would bet money that most here on the session cannot play traditional music -Irish or otherwise withour resorting to a predisposition for pop music and it's effects and affects.
You have to drop those nasty habits... its not your fault... the world has molded and shaped you into thinking that music needs "these three things etc..." Its all just garbage and if you can't drop the garbage, then you have no idea what traditional music is all about.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Donough, in response to you, I see your point and it is an interesting observation. My previous post was not directed towards you.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Funny how bodhrán threads always draw some really ridiculous comments.
Here's some so far.
bOdhran: 'The bodhran is really a versatile instrument ! One can add many effects to support the melody players. Sometimes when there is no bass player it can be used to make an "almost a bass" line.' Of course, bass players are such a necessary component of traditional music.
Here's bOdhran again: 'One thing about that brings me joy is when people get up and start dancing or moving in their chairs to the beat of the bodhran.' The second part of this sentence defies any kind of sensible comment (unless the poster only plays in geriatric care homes).
Then there's Fishmonger's 'Bodhran, bones or spoons is NEEDED for the third.' He was talking about rhythm. What, no shakey eggs? Actually, he was talking from a position of incarnate ignorance about the music.
Then Fishmonger comes up with this 'Well, with the exception of our vocal chords, there is no more traditional instrument than the bodhran.' Apart from the fact that their vocal cords (!), how on earth can the bodhrán be considered more traditional since it was introduced to traditional music many years after most other instruments (and I'm calling it an instrument only begrudgingly)?
MollyB then arrives up with this garbage 'Believe me there are far more bad fiddle, banjo, guitar, flute players around than bodhran players.' We might agree with the reference to guitarists, but it's a lot harder to be a bad fiddler than a bad percussionist.
And, JD, my copy of the 'Toss the Feathers' CD certainly does not feature a bodhrán high in the mix.
Does anybody really care what bodhrán players feel about their role in the music? I should sincerely hope not.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
And, of course, it's 'they're vocal cords'! Sloppy homophone time again.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
"Purpose of bodhráns"? I'm pretty sure you hit them with this little stick and they sound just like a drum.
To answer the posts' question, what makes it good are not having it played all the time, not playing the same thing all the time, and paying close attention to the music you are accompanying.
What always drives me nuts are the people that do the same beat through a whole set of tunes, never stopping or changing what they are doing. Truly awful.
Considering it's a drum, there's only so much you can do with it, as far as making it sound different. I humbly suggest growing a sense of drama. What I mean (for example) is NOT playing the first time through, play a little the second, and come in full bore on the third, and then stop dead when the next tune starts. That's absurdly basic, because I'm no drummer, but I do know what I like, and what I like is NOT the same flippin' beat to every single tune with no pauses. I like to feel like a person playing the drum is listening to the music I'm playing and is playing it WITH me, not against me, or at me, boom-chucka boom-chucka boom-chucka.
...that's the big crisis, IMHO. It doesn't seem like rocket science to play the thing tastefully, I don't understand why it can't be done more often. I really enjoy it when it's done tastefully. It does give that whole, "Earthy" non "hoity toity" feel to it. Very primal.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I disagree with Fishmonger. Yeah to harmony and yeah to rhythm, but I do not think that Irish traditional music needs melody at all. It is, after all, dance music. Dance music requires rhythm only, so that the dancers can do their thing. Therefore the bodhran is the only instrument that is required for ITM.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Actually, I think Michael may have inadvertently hit on something. Playing for dancers is very different in a lot of ways than playing in a session. So in that case, Donough, I think you may be right. The bodhrán can give a different feel to the music, more like having a dancer.
And maybe bodhrán players can take that to heart, because you would never hear a hard shoe dancer dancing the exact same clickity-clackity clickity-clackity step all the way through a tune. There needs to be variety in the rhythm. I like it when a dance step is based around the tune, punctuating and accenting it.
Just like melody players, rhythmic accompaniment should give some "space" to the tune. If it sounds like a sewing machine or a freight train, the music can lack character and beauty.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Sure enough my good Reverend, and if it's a ceili, forget about needing any ornamentation or tune variations, "We have no time for that, go go go!!!" and if it's step dancers, bring all your variations so you don't get bored out of your mind: "...and now, Miss Golden Curls will do a treble jig at roughly 75 beats per minute...zzz..."
See, now there's something we can all agree on, making fun of dancers.
I'm just teasing, love to all dancers! Bless ya!
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
And, JD, my copy of the 'Toss the Feathers' CD certainly does not feature a bodhrán high in the mix.
Well i suppose we all have different taste.When i listen to that cd it takes me a while to get passed the bodhran playing,and the last time i listened before a few mins ago, who i was listening with thought exactly the same,and i think most would .You do get used to it eventually but its too much for me on a good few of the tracks.As i said though its just personal preference i suppose.As it goes i actually like the album, (album eh! heh)
As for the "bodhranista's" 8) role, i don't mind them so that's not where i am coming from,when i hear people talk or write about bodhrans that cd always springs to my mind,as an example of too "much iness".
Regards
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by J.D
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
just did a search on here and the first comment that came up was..
Furey (fiddle, father of Finbar, George, and the rest of the brood) and Byrne (bodhran). Byrne's bodhran style takes a bit of getting used to!
note the exclamation mark, so i am not alone,there is three of us at least hehe.
Regards
J.D
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by J.D
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Yeah, Dow, this is my favorite tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in7aEQZj9jc
Sorry!)
All kidding aside, bodhrán solos seem to be crowd-pleasers when performing for the general masses, but imagine a guy pulling that out in a session... shudder... (Oh hell, I just said "performing" and "session" in the same sentence - now who's stirring the pot?
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Dow, but if we agree in that the bodhran is a substitute for dancers, what follows is that if there are dancers we don't need bodhrans, because the dancers will do they own rhythm. Therefore a bunch of dancers is the only instrument that is required for ITM.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
'their', not 'they'
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Boy, would I love to go a round with a couple of you knuckleheads. Though I don't think it would take me that long.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Remember to use proper technique! It's just like a bodhrán:
Don't punch all the time, always vary your punches, and pay close attention to your opponent!
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
If you take that attitude Fishmonger then a discussion forum is not for you. If you don't want people to disagree with you then write a book and don't read the reviews.
Obviously you do not NEED a percussion instrument to make trad music. If that was the case then half the best trad is and was not music at all.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by bogman
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
it wouldn't take you long to...what? embarrass yourself yet again. save the macho B.S. for other sites.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Perhaps if the bodhran players were to wear curly wigs they could substitute for dancers?
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Oh, and tan their legs, too...
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
'Boy, would I love to go a round with a couple of you knuckleheads. Though I don't think it would take me that long.'
Since your knuckles are probably dragging on the pavement (sorry, sidewalk) you'd have a job keeping up with us.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: sportshall roof at 4pm...
'Boy, would I love to go a round with a couple of you knuckleheads. Though I don't think it would take me that long.'
?
i thought you were supposed to be in love?
or you were on May 19th at least.
fwiw,percussion is not 'NEEDED' for this music and if you would only apply the rest of your brain that's not involved in love and pugilistic perorations to this fact then we can all stop trembling at the thought of your mighty prowess in the boxing ring.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
some funny stuff on here!
i agree with that poster who said about how it works well when the bodhrán player adds some drama. Also agree about needing to follow the changes of the tunes and not just banging along
also agree with those people fed up with bodhrán players who make lots of "interesting" sounds with their drums but don't fit it into the tune
i've heard some rubbish fiddlers etc, too
best wishes
greenman
\())
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by greenman
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
"I would bet money that most here on the session cannot play traditional music -Irish or otherwise withour resorting to a predisposition for pop music and it's effects and affects.
You have to drop those nasty habits... its not your fault... the world has molded and shaped you into thinking that music needs "these three things etc..." Its all just garbage and if you can't drop the garbage, then you have no idea what traditional music is all about." -McCracken
I just love it when someone presumes that they are good enough to tell everyone else how they *should* and *shouldn't* play. Especially when they have nothing in their bio. I'm sure I would be SHOCKED - completely SHOCKED at the musical Genius that McCracken possesses - but I have to admit....I just don't care.
I like a good tasteful bodhran - no it isn't necessary. But I like it all the same.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by bb
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I agree with others about SirNose on the goat skin - and he
did amazing Jimi Hendrix type solos with the band at the Nash.
Otherwise (excluding people like SirNose of course) I think the main purpose of one is to get free beer and hang out with musicians
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Hup
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Well I know I worded this thread a little too provocatively so the degeneration is probably all my own fault.
Not a dancer or Bodhran in sight. But I did sit down now and read every single post.
I purposely didn't try and reply to every posting mainly because I was too busy playing tunes last night
As I suppose I should have expected only a few actually addressed the main issue I was raising and Its great to know that Michael thinks I'm a NoBrainer! I wonder did he ever get a chance to have that session with BB to find out whether the best was good enough for him.
"I like a good tasteful bodhran - no it isn't necessary. But I like it all the same."
That's where I would stand too but I was interested to know what makes a person think Bodhran playing is good or otherwise. Obviously it helps if it is in time and does not dominate the melody and the player knows the tunes; but beyond that what makes it really good? Is it something to do with mimicking good dancing?
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
There's one good reason why the bodhran is not and never will be a substitute for dancers. And that is that you play for dancers, dancers don't dance for you. Though there maybe some truth out of the observation that all the bodhran players I've ever met think you are playing for them.
What I mean when I refer to the music being liberated from the dancing is merely that you play for yourself.
(p.s. It's that fishmonger who has no brain, not you Donough. I find your discussion intriguing. I disagree, but am happy to debate. Yes, the drum isn't necessary and I'll happily debate this topic with anyone who agrees with this)
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
yes Donough you were right just mention bodhran and the bashers come out of their little wormholes. There must be something in that rural Leitrim air. 'Believe me there are far more bad fiddle, banjo, guitar, flute players around than bodhran players.' We might agree with the reference to guitarists, but it's a lot harder to be a bad fiddler than a bad percussionist." From what I hear around the sessions its not all that hard to be a bad fiddler, fluter or harmonica player, quite easy in fact. Sad thing though is these people are so full of their own importance they usually fail to realise this fact and continue to regale us with their own particular brand of horrible music. Thankfully there are enough good bodhran players around to keep these chancers in time and in line!
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by MollyB
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Purpose of a bodhran? To keep chancers in time and in line!
Or is it?
Purpose of a bodhran? To replace dancers!
Can we infer from this that: The purpose of dancers is to keep chancers in time and in line?
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Somebody shoot McCracken's horse.
Any musician I've met who has commented on my playing - and plenty have - has said (words to the effect that ) they like the extra drive and lift that the bodhran brings, and that sometimes my playing is too gentle for the session.
So I feel my role as a bodhran player at a session is to add an extra lift to a tune. I rarely play if I don't know a tune, or I play quietly while I get the feel for it.
Incidentally, my *purpose and intent* when joining a session is most often to enjoy myself in good company.
"all the bodhran players I've ever met think you are playing for them."
You should get out a bit more, llig!
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by RockyRoader
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Yes, it is true that I have never enjoyed a tune with a bodhran. However, I'm may be a cynic, but at least I'm in incorrigibly optimistic cynic. So I live in hope.
It's not something I do often, but I played for dancers at the weekend, and the one thing that made it easier and more enjoyable was the fact that the drummer (kit) in the band is really really good.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
or did the dancers dance for you, silly man (or woman). Now with that big ego of yours I'd say so. Just wondering did some bodhran player break your little heart and is that what has made you so cynical. The music is there to be enjoyed by all, we're only on this planet for a short time, who are you to despite and critise anyone elses attempts to join in the tune.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by MollyB
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Isn't that llig's point, though? -- that we're only on this planet for a short time, so....
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
there seems to be a bit of disillusioned opinions on enjoying the music on this thread.
'the music is there to be enjoyed by all, we're only on this plaet for a short time, who are you to despite and criticise anyone else attempts to join in the tune'. i think people who are sitting in a session enjoying themselves have a right to complain if any bad musician which includes bad fiddle players, flute, and bodhran etc., joins their session and starts to unbalance it. yes the music is there to be enjoyed by all but i know that if something like that happens and threatens not just mine but everyone else in the session enjoyment then you know, someones going to say something.
it has nothing to do with 'ego' or anything like that. people just want to enjoy playing. if a person isn't a greatt musician or is just starting off than they should know better if they can hear themselves that a session is beyond them and should find one that suits them more. this is not bodhran bashing or anything, this goes for all instruments, the problem though with the bodhran is that it is not that difficult (compared to other instruments, im sure its difficult when you get onto the complicated rythms and other bits) to get a rythm out of, i dont even play the bodhran and i can always get something out of it even though it mightn't be great to play with. that sort of development gives people the mindset 'right im well able to go out and play'.
i'm not saying thats the case with everyone but you can see what i mean.a lot of it has to do with etiquette, if we did everything that some people here are saying sessions would be a free for all and be disastrous.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Just a gentle nudge backwards towrad the topic intended.(I know I have said before how I love a thread hijack).
For those of you who DO have some time for an occasional bit of Bodhran, do you think that good quality has something to do with mimicking good dancers?
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I hasten to add that this in no way is to suggest that we can only play for dancers or a bodhran player. Heck even a few of the tunes I played last night in pure solitude gave me a bit of a buzz. Not sure that the dog was too happy though.
Even if someone of the Best standard was to join our session I would be glad if he didn't play on everything. But then the good ones know when to back off.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
How can it? Unless you are playing for it?
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I've recently began play for dancers and quite enjoy doing so. Though I tend to ease back and let them fill in the the beats, by that I mean I play in a less, dare I say it, ornamented manner. It's hard to say whether its necessary in dancing i.e. if we have the dancers do we need a Bodhrán or if there's a Bodhrán do we need he dancers. I think it boils down to the nature of the performance. Not as many dancers turn up to sessions as Bodhrán players which may be reason this thread has spun a little on the basher side.
I hadn't thought about the role of filling in dance steps when I first picked up and began playing Bodhrán. In my case I follow the the rhythm set down by the tune being played. I think sensitivity to the music is extremely important unfortunately not all Bodhrán players display this in session settings.
Returning to your point about Junior Davey, I can see what you mean by the fills he used on that particular recording. Junior has reverted to a more motor rhythm style of play in later recordings, backing Carmel Gunning on her CD "The Sligo Maid"
This change in playing style is evident on his last recording "A Sound Skin" a very Johnny McDonagh style. So a lot of what you describe in Juniors playing has altered through the course of time. I think the recording with Declan demonstrates the influence of the developing "top-end" style of play, championed by Mr J.J. Kelly around the time "Skin & Bow" was recorded. This type of playing style became popular from the mid 90's onwards. Tops, pops and trills have continued ever since, not my style of playing but each to their own. Is that any closer to answering you're initial post? probably not but it's filled up a bit of time before I begin cooking dinner.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by newdeafman
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
If I try to take out the word "for". Do you sometimes find that enjoying playing with dancers is in any way similar to playing with a good bodhran. If you don't like bodhran playing Michael this question kind of excludes you . Normally I do respect your opinion but right now I am only asking those people who like a bit of goat bashing.
Newdeafman, thanks for your comments - very interesting but not quite what I was looking for. Yet maybe the Tops Pops and Trills are a form of dance step imitation.
Maybe the music has moved on so much that in a session it really is not dance music anymore. Yet when I see feet tapping and seated legs jumping, I can't help but feel that this is still dance music at heart.
The Rhythm is in the melody but I can't help feel that just as meaning is in my words when i speak, it is easier to follow meaning by the tone of my voice than if I speak in a monotone. Similarily the Bodhran is enunciating more obviously the rhythm part of the melody. Not necessary but it can be nice.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Well, I think there's a whole new opportunity for a good discussion, Donough: Is it still dance music?
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
"Similarily the Bodhran is enunciating more obviously the rhythm part of the melody." Actually, it doesn't. It just repeats the rythmn of the melody. You may think it enunciates more, and this maybe the case with a good bodrhan player and a "chancer" tune player, as Molly puts it. But not with a good tune player.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
For those responding to me, look at what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I didnt bash bodhrans at all and it is true in my experience that MOST musicians in the world today who play Irish music in sessions are predisposed to popular music and its rules, structures, "chord progressions", chord charts, sheet music, and all that goes with it. It's just the way it is and alot of people dont want to get rid of that baggage and NEED to realize that it doesn't have anything to do with traditional music . Im not on a high horse, but just observing... Its obvious to me when someone at a session will ask me "What are the chords to that?." Especially here in the USA... even on the pro-semi pro level ---- look at the "Irish" "Celtic" festivals and look at the acts playing.... You've got McKracky Whacky and the Flaming Shamrocks with electric guitars and kilts and someone... usually one player who may have an idea of a jig or reel but not really, thrashing out noise for the McMoshers and the O' I Luv Me Pints crowd. Who's on the freakin high horse? Me? Because I say that traditional music is good enough the way it is???? Come down to the barn floor and shovel the sh*t with me because Im right where I want to be!
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
My idea of heaven is being a partner with a fiddle player who also plays bodhran. I play flute and bodhran. We could then play flute and fiddle, flute and bodhran or fiddle and bodhran. We wouldn't need anything else (although a guitar wouldn't hurt).
That's my answer to the original question.
Cheers.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Ailin
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Boy, that took a long time to get to the bottom of this thread! You must be all unemployed or something.....
I guess if you don't dance then a bodhran might fill in that need quite nicely. I mean ...considering that maybe we were once apes and our hands and feet had roughly the same kind of communication with our brains. I don't play the bodhran so I don't consider that what I might say about one would add anything to this discussion. But I do dance. I've taught other kinds of traditional dance for years and started dancing Irish two years ago. It's true that dancers tend to be less sensitive to the music, that is if they don't play an instrument themselves. But if you have the luck to do both, the music is very much enhanced by dancing to it. So I suspect that can happen to the bodhran player too. Melody is terribly important to Irish music and is solely responsible for its variety. If I'm dancing to a really nice reel or slip jig - and I'm talking about soft shoes - the melody carries me through the turns and jumps and I try to stretch and shorten them to give the music and dance that extra something. This would perhaps be the sensitive bodhran player at work? Hard shoes dancing is more a rhythmic business. But it's an exciting way to experience the tune. Come on apes - homo sapiens thumps with his feet! Maybe you need to come out from behind your fiddles and flutes and jump around.
C. Nicolas
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by C. Nicolas
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Since I began playing this music with some other musicians at a local Irish Session in 1995, I have felt that the harmony and the rhythm were implied in the melodies or tunes which were being played. It was the responsibility of myself and the bodhran player to figure out the rhythms and the harmony implied in the melody in order to accompany the melody players properly.
At an Irish Session, the purpose of the accompanying instruments such as a bodhran is to enhance and support the melody playing. It is not to lead the group and/or to set the rhythm.
I have tried dancing with a local contradance society who dance to live music and I felt like I was being rewarded when I was asked to join the band because the piano player quit. I was glad because I no longer had to dance. Instead, I could concentrate on playing the piano.
Besides piano, I play bass (both acoustic and electric) and I have frequently participated in jam sessions where there was no drummer and I had to try to keep the rhythm steady without any help because I was the bass player.
I have also played music in situations where there was a drummer to work with and, if the drummer knows what he or she is doing, it is very enjoyable.
For example, several years ago, I sat in at an Irish Session in San Antonio, Texas which had three female bodhran players. Yes, all three of these women had a superb sense of timing and rhythm. They were a pleasure to work with.
# Posted on May 29th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
The harmony and the rhythm are most definately not merely implied in the melodies. Harmony and rhythm ARE what the melodies are made of. This is a very important distinction.
# Posted on May 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Michael, I am certainly not arguing with you on that last point. My point about enunciating the beat with a bodhran was not to suggest that it (beat) isn't already there in the melody. So you don't need it (bodhran) but then I can play in time without dancers as well but I do like to play with/for/to dancers.
# Posted on May 29th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I don't agree that the melodies are made of harmony and rhythm. There's clearly rhythm in them. You can assign 'harmonies' to them if you really want to impose the standards of Western Art music or pop on them. But - the old tunes at least - are essentially *melodic*. There is no need to think of them as being made up of 'harmonies' at all.
I realise that Michael, and others, have not agreed with me on this one. It's probably my fault for not explaining myself better. I've done my best in the paragraph above.
# Posted on May 29th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Let's say you play a jig in Dmaj. The first note is the root, D, the next it the third, Fsharp, the next is the fifth, A. There you have the first half of the 6 on 8. The next half starts on a G, then a B, then a D. The melody has set up the rhythm of a jig, 6/8 and has also made two triads, one Dmaj and the next Gmaj.
The harmony has not been implied by any stretch of imagination, it IS the construction of the tune. Just because the notes in the triads are not played simultaneously does not mean it's not harmony.
And the rhythm of 6/8 is constructed of two complimenting triplets.
A tune IS rhythm and harmony.
# Posted on May 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Harmony is melody stacked up and melody is harmony rolled out - can't remember who I am quoting on this but its not original. Now I had better take my pills before I start agreeing completely with Michael
# Posted on May 29th 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
After my words of wisdom and llig's generous sharing of wisdom, how can this discussion still be going on?
Drop the techno garbage, drop your classical and pop baggage and believe in the tunes... and play the tunes. Trust the tunes... they don't need your contamination.
If you are struggling to understand what it's all about, listen to Matt Molloy.
-McCracken, (who will be attacked for believing in the music.)
# Posted on May 29th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Its not that you'll be attacked for believing in the music - it’s that you actually make no sense at all.... what are you talking about?? This thread is about bodhráns - not techno....my god. PS - it’s usually the people who say things like;
""I would bet money that most here on the session cannot play traditional music -Irish or otherwise without resorting to a predisposition for pop music and it's effects and affects." McCracken
who don’t know what they are talking about or how to play....I have a really good friend of the same surname as yours - she is a really fantastic player and you are giving her a bad name.
I didn’t know that being from the states makes you an expert in traditional music.....very strange...
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by bb
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I know what you're getting at, Michael, and some tunes are more 'harmonic' than others. It's just that I think one can get a much better idea of where the tunes are coming from if you think linearly *along* the melody of the tune. I think that's how they work best and how they were originally derived. Not from harmony.
I accept I'm not going to be able to explain myself to you on this one.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Benhall - FWIW you are giving me the impression of each note being percieved against a receding memory of the ones that went before it, and their harmonics, and in anticipation of the ones that are coming next. Rather than somehow being nestled in with a litle group of notes making up a chord. If a theorist told me that was what was happening when I enjoyed a traditional melody I would tend to accept is as a credible model. This is not off-topic from my perspective. I rapidly gave up trying to guitar bash at sessions when I realised that my brain did not do harmony - took up bodhran instead (and learnt from the good strummers)
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by David50
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Ben, the reason you can't explain yourself is because you don't know what harmony is. The example I gave of the jig was deliberately a straight forward one to try to get you to understand that lines of notes derive their melodic forms through our subconscious appreciation of harmony, (not, by the way, through any technical knowledge of it).
You can't say that some tunes are more harmonic that others. It's like saying that one brick wall is more "bricky" than another brick wall. One may have a more obvious pattern than the next, but they are both made of bricks.
A more subtle tune than the example I gave might follow a more unusual series of notes, say an Fsharp to a Cnat, where the sense of the structure can only come from the wider context of more of the tune. But it's still all harmony. That interval, Fsharp to a Cnat, has a very different meaning if your root is either D or G.
David, it reminds me of a discussion here where people were expressing a preference for tunes they described as weird, but what they were actually referring to was tunes that had a major third and a flattened seventh. They had ears brought up on music that didn't do this. To their pre conditioned appreciation of what works harmonically, this scale sounded weird. It doesn't sound weird to me because I've heard it all my life. And it should start to sound more normal to others, the longer they hear it.
Of course you should think linearly *along* the melody of the tune. That is how they work best and how they were originally derived. But to say that this shouldn't be done from a harmonic perspective is like saying a meal is best appreciated by tasting each individual thing on your plate one after the other, but with disregard to how the ingredients compliment each other.
So, to say that your brain does not do harmony, is to say that your brain does not do melody. And this gets to the crux of my disliking of bodhrans: So, David, the purpose of the bodhran for you is that your brain does not do melody. I'm afraid that this disability would make you a poor drummer.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Actually Ben, I apologise. The reason you can't explain your self is because you don't technically know what harmony is. But by your postings here and elsewhere, I'd say that you more than likely do know what harmony is. Being able to explain it technically is not a prerequisite, it's not even all that helpful. Knowing a good tune when you hear one is what it's about, and this uses pre conditioned subconscious appreciation of harmony. Which is more than enough. You do not need to know why you like a tune you like. If this could be explained technically, then we could get machines to write good tunes. But we can't.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Michael, I am following your explanation. And I did say "the ones that went before it, *and their harmonics*". When I read up about how we percieve sound I don't find perceptual psychologists talking about harmony and chords. They talk about octaves and harmonics, they talk about what we perceive when we hear one note after another, or at the same time, and the unexpected things that can be perceived by playing tricks with the harmonic contents. They talk in a way that makes flattened major thirds 'normal'. Your "subconscious appreciation of harmony" is a reference in musicians terms to a musicians model of what is happening (and no argument that it is a good model). I really feel for those guys in the churches back in the middle ages who got upset when people starting singing more than one note at a time.
No, after at least 45 years of enjoying folk tunes and bagpipe music I would not use the term wierd. Wierd is what happens in jazz, or what Shetland guitarists do under folk tunes. Wierd is learning to sing my part in a diminished 7th chord (I think that was what was told it was) in an accapella choir. Wierd is Frank Zappa and many of the other 'influences' mentioned by several regulars here on a recent thread.
Anyhow, since we are talking about drums, I will just take to opportunity to disagree with you about tuning on bodhrans (you have mentioned it on several other threads). They really do change in pitch when you twiddle those adjusters, or warm them, or wet them or push them a bit harder with the left hand. And players do it because some pitches sound better against tunes plays in particular keys. Sort of "this doesn't sound right maybe try pushing a bit less, or hitting it somewhere else". Is that harmony ?
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by David50
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Jazz only sounds weird to you because you are not used to that kind of harmony. Your average Joe Western has had his ears conditioned to accept the normal major scale as normal (and 4/4 for that matter). The percaptual psychologist should be taking into account the cultural conditioning.
My "subconscious appreciation of harmony" is most certainly not a reference to a musician's model of what is happening. It's a reference to anyone's cultural exposure to what they consider to be normal music.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
With reference to tuning of bodhrans in sessions, it's worth noting in the orchestral field that the tympani drums are tunable - tymps that are out of pitch with what the rest of the orchestra is doing make their presence felt in a very undesirable way.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Michael. I was agreeing with you about cultural conditioning. But when you used "subconscious appreciation of harmony" above you followed it with "(not, by the way, through any technical knowledge of it)." so I understood you to mean something like what we get in books on music theory. With cultural conditioning something can be enjoyable becuase it is familiarand comfortable or becuase it is different (wierd). A note can raise emotion either because it is exactly what our brain is expecting (be that withing a stacked or linear view of things) or because it is not (either not an 'expected' note, or not quite pitched as expected).
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by David50
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
You don't have to go very far geographically within Europe to find plenty examples of scales that would make anyone trained only in the classical harmonic structures of Western European music scratch his head in despair at trying to harmonise tunes using those scales. For instance, consider this scale used in Muntania (a district of Wallachia) in the Balkans: A - cnat – c# - d# - e – f# - gnat – a. The best approach is probably to use drones.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Back to drums.
)
In a lot or recorded music (I am not sure about sessions) there can be a very definite sense of a downbeat that is very steady and even, so you could feel happy walking jogging or dancing to it but the actual notes are being articulated so that few if any are exactly on a beat in the way a mandolin picked to a metronome (or a MIDI file) would be. But the beat is still there. Michael has said on other threads that the volume effects the perception of timing (interesting, more please).
Questions. In that situation does a thump from a bodhran sounding on the beat 'fit' or does it annoy melody players (assuming that they don't have a blanket objection to drums) ? And when playing "this music" for dancers do melody players tend to bring the apparent attack of the note onto that beat ( for the likes of Scottish country dance bands the answer is clearly yes) ?
(I think my brain does drones
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by David50
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
At client's ... will respond later ...
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
David, yes, I think that you've made an interesting distinction between playing for dancers and playing for yourself. I think that for dancers it's important to have that timing spot on. But that doesn't mean I'd attack that downbeat, whether playing for dancers or not, I'd still vary it. But when I'm playing for dancers I'll usually have a drummer with me.
But when playing for myself (with others, playing for themselves, and ourselves) I/we'd want everyone to be listening and reacting to each others playing. The thump of a bodhran sounding on the beat is most definitely a distraction, to say the least. The last thing you want in an ensemble is someone listening to their internal clock (even if it's an extremely accurate and reliable internal clock) and ignoring everyone else.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I think it has to do with what McCracken's been on about. In a rock band, the lead guitar player looks to the drummer for that rock steady thing. That's what rock music is, that relentless power of kick snare kick snare.
But don't transfer this value set to diddley music. Yes, it should be rock steady, that comes from the melody.
It all comes from the melody. Everything is in the melody. Everything is in that line of notes.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
The purpose of the melody is to encapsulate everything. That's why the music is so dense.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
OK, thanks. I don't think the drummer would be following a personal internal clock though. The regular beat that I would tap my foot to seems to be defined by what the melody players are doing, a communal internal clock that the drummer should be following, not part of. Maybe the beat that people talk of playing ahead of ?
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by David50
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Oh, OK ,crossed the last two. Should have checked before pasting that. Just off for the weekend.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by David50
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
bb said to me--- ....I have a really good friend of the same surname as yours - she is a really fantastic player and you are giving her a bad name.
I didn’t know that being from the states makes you an expert in traditional music.....very strange...
I gave examples to back up my point... you don't agree, that's fine, but it really doesn't matter where I'm from and you are attacking me personally when I attacked none...
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Gets you in free to folk clubs on "singers nights".
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I know I said I'd be back later to try and explain again ...
... but I'm too tired ...
It's not that I don't understand harmony. I studied it at a serious level for many years. I also understand melody. It is possible for melodies to exist without having any reference at all to 'harmony' as such. To go from one extreme - take Indian ragas. They are melodic in nature. I think it is beneficial to think of Irish melodies in that sort of way.
It's not 'right' (ie the *only* way), but it's also not 'right' (ie the only way) to think of them as 'harmonic'. I just think it's beneficial my way. And, if you can get it, you will find that 'eureka moment' of true enlightenment.
Just my view. But whatever works for you.
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I don't get it ben. How can a D note followed by an A note not have any reference at all to it being the interval we are familiar with that we call a fifth? The only "melody" I can think of that can exist without any reference to harmony would be a tune with only one note in it. (like a drum I suppose).
# Posted on May 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Just read a few comments so far, I have been away at Trade Union Conference, plotting the downfall of the multi-nationals, boring sessions and some Australians.
A few comments from Fiddleruairi gave me pause for immediate thought.
"Johnny McDonagh is the best out there". Really? If you accept that the bodhran should be complimenting the music, rather than dominating it, it would be difficult to find a "best" player. I have over the last few weeks heard many a player as good as Johnny, some very young players as well, which is encouraging. I suppose it should be "Johnny McDonagh is my favourite". Loads of people would list me as their favourite, just depends who you ask.
As for the old school, Coleman et al, not even having bodhrans in their day, to an extent that is a fallacy. Sean O'Riada did not patent and invent a bodhran, he revived and popularised it. There were some bodhran players around. However the Coleman era was worse, as they used vamping pianos which is dreadful.
As for describing Frankie Gavin as "arrogant", I must say he has always been very shy and humble when playing at any session with me.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
the problem though with the bodhran is that it is not that difficult (compared to other instruments, im sure its difficult when you get onto the complicated rythms and other bits) to get a rythm out of, i dont even play the bodhran and i can always get something out of it even though it mightn't be great to play with. that sort of development gives people the mindset 'right im well able to go out and play'.
i'm not saying thats the case with everyone but you can see what i mean.a lot of it has to do with etiquette, if we did everything that some people here are saying sessions would be a free for all and be disastrous.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Oh dear, oh dear.
Now you know why bodhrans get a bad name, and I used to blame tourists who thought it was easy, bought a drum and "got something out of it". Turns out frustrated fiddle players do it as well.
My dear Fiddle ruairi, you are beginning to sound like the type of person Frankie Gavin would call "an arrogant fiddler".
Story. I recently accompanied a lady to Eamon Maguire's workshop as she wanted to purchase a drum. Immediately spotted a nice small, tunable drum, absolutely beautiful. The lady however spotted a larger drum, similar to my own, and opined that it was louder, so would that not be better. Eamon quickly said "depends on how many sessions you want to ruin".
Priceless.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I am sorry McCracken - I admit I got a little carried away. Though I still dont understand why you should be giving others tips on how to better themselves on traditional musicians - and your are right - it doesnt matter where you are from. I've head some mighty fine players in the states.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by bb
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Good story Bliss. But after she expressed her preferance for the louder one, could you not have just changed your mind and said, actually, I'm not gonna let you buy one afterall.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
While I agree with your sentiments Mr Llig, especially as the lady can play the whistle to a degree and I have urged her to concentrate on that, do you know Eamon Maguire?
Most likely he would have made two bodhrans out of my skin for deterring his customers.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Llig is right. Say if you have a tune that starts |eAcA eAcA| it sounds good to us because it's outlining an A minor chord. If it was |_eA^cA _eAc^G| it wouldn't sound like Irish music. I think you need to step back a bit Ben and see the whole picture.
Now if you play |eAcA eAcA| on the pipes and use a D drone underneath it... *that's* what makes Irish music interesting for me, because it's asking to resolve to G, and of course in the old traditional tunes it does. It's the structure of the tunes that makes playing the music like putting on an old, comfy pair of slippers.
As llig says, the music *is* harmony, as well as rhythm and melody. It's everything, even without adding bodhrans and guitars in the mix. And no, Ben, I'm afraid the harmony has very little to do with what you learned on whatever classical course you did. Classical rules need not apply
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Even without considering the relationship between notes there's still harmony in the music. For example on a stringed instrument like a fiddle, banjo or a mandolin there are notes ringing through others. Even on an instrument like pipes, whistle or flute the sound of one note does not finish the instant you play another.
You almost always put reverb or similar effect on a recorded instrument as it fills out the sound and makes it sound more natural. So I would say the tune contains melody, rhythm and harmony, what's added is personal taste. Sometimes I like playing with a bodhran sometimes I don't. But the same goes for other instruments too.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by bogman
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Yes to what bogman said, not to mention harmonics. Every note you play on your instrument isn't just one note, you're playing harmony the whole time with other notes sounding like the octave, the 5th in the next octave, and (roughly) the 3rd and flat 7 in the upper octaves. These aren't inaudible. They're actually sounding loud and clear, especially on good instruments in a room with good acoustics. They're what make the tunes ring all about you when everyone's in tune with each other. The overtones suggest all sorts of different harmonies and textures if you listen to them and you listen to what your mates are doing with them and respond to it.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Actually no it's more than just suggest.. my point was that the overtones *are* harmony.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
jesus are people still debating this thread. i thought it was long finished.
glad to see my comments are being taken into account bodhran bliss. maybe if you read some of my others you might have taken those last ones into context.
about johnny ringo, this is one area where there is no case of someone being just a favourite. i mentioned earlier that the best person (and ANYONE that i have met which is a lot of people) to judge how good a bodhran player is, isn't a bodhran player. of course you do get the sensible ones that know good playing when they hear it, but the bottom line bliss is that the bodhran is accompanying the music, and whether you like it or not, you dont have to be a bloody arrogant fiddle player to know it ( which i am NOT, i may come across like that because i know what i like, and i know what other musicians think because ive been on the scene far too long not to), you can play any instrument, the bodhran is still an accessory and it will always be up to the person who the bodhran is accompanying (obviously the melody player) whether they like them playing with them or not.
yes, i know you may think that there are lots of great young bodhran players out there, ive heard them too (since i am only twenty one myself [and if you are wondering about my earlier comment, i have been on the scene for that long, literally my whole life thats what being in a musical family does to you, you might think i sound arrogant again, but thats because you don't know me personally, i really amn't]. there are loads of bodhran players that are far better technically than johnny mcdonagh, they can do all of the fancy rythmical stuff, all the fancy offbeats and rolls and pops and whatever you want to call it. i would call watery bodhran playing, its very 'plippity-ploppity'. many musicians including myself, find this playing incredibly distracting playing, the whole idea of the bodhran is to compliment the music and keep things steady while still providing the necessary lift, but this type of bodhran playing is just totally 'takeover the session' type stuff. how can anyone concentrate when a player like that is doing a bodhran solo while you're playing? ive heard many people play with this type of bodhran thinking it sounds cool, but it just sounds bad. there have been numerous occassion where the person would be far better off without it. the bodhran is suppose to be subtle, thats the beauty of it, but when ye have people playing like yer man from flook for gods sake it just turns into a farce. one of the best gigs i went to was patsy hanley and john carlos in the cobblestone with johnny ringo in bodhran. two flutes together you might think the bodhran could overpower them but, because he understands that bodhran playing is secondary to the music, it was great! there is no point being technically brilliant like all those other style of players when you dont understand the role of the instrument and what it is like for the other person playing. i dont know how you play yourself, i may be pleasantly surprised.
also, did i mention that i play the bodhran in public? if i was seen bringing a bodhran into a session with some of my friends they would probably take the p*ss out of me. there is only one bodhran player that we allow to play with us and surprisingly he is very like johnny mcdonagh. the last time i TOUCHED a bodhran must have been more than five or six years ago even though we have some in the house.
if i was frustrated i wouldn't still bloody well be playing the fiddle these past thirteen years would i? if you still think so look me up on youtube if you must. Im on one of those bloody comhaltas videos (which legally speaking they should have asked me first). the only thing frustrating me is some of the people on this site, who in a pub if any of those 'brown-nosing mcgoldrick lovers' said the same things they would promptly be told where to go.
i think my comments about anyone being able to get a beat or 'sound' out of it ( i did say that, i also never said it was a good sound) are well jusitified. kevin crawford can play one, harry bradley can also, dave sheridan, john carty, john williams, ive seen ALL of my friends play one, ive seen my brother who plays the flute play one for gods sake, the list could go on.
bodhran players may not like it but it is just a fact of life that it is melody players first, bodhran and accompanying second. thats just the way it is. it is useless to talk about bodhran and something like a flute or concertina in the same breath, they are on different musical planets. some however forget this...
and of course frankie gavin is shy and humble in a session, do you think he actually wants to be bothered by other people he doesn't know? come on! almost everyone has heard every story about frankie, he is probably even more cranky now that he is broke! he's only interested in conversing with people he knows ( my family have never had a problem simply because of the fact he's known my mother for since he was a teen, i doubt he would talk to us if that wasn't the case,), and i dont blame him, it was probably annoying all those years having people come up to him the whole time insisting on talking to him about his work. although needless to say i've never been that stupid (although im pretty sure some of the people on this site would disagree soon enough) lol.
to sum up, well just read everything i've just written cause i couldn't be a-r-s-e-d writing again. unlike some people who will gladly tear this comment apart i wont be contributing to this site anymore because i would rather discuss things like this with people i know and who i respect, i don't know what music most people on this site listen to and what they play like as musicians and what they know. how can you have a meaningful discussion like this when there is so much bullsh*tting. ( i can see the comments now! 'oh you must be a bullsh*tter because you dont have a bio'! lol. well you know you are dealing with lackwits when you get ones like that eh? )
anyway im off to hughes' (in Dublin for any of you non-irish) for some tuneskies. come to the john mckenna fest in drumkeerin next weekend if you want some tunes (only the good ones mind {and no bodhrans! ah no only joking, i had to get that one in! lol}) i shall leave you all with a piece of advice: why spend time on this site when you can go and play music! if there is something you need to learn, just listen to the music. everything you need to know is right there in the music, you just have to make good use of it! discussions on this site and some of the people that contribute will only frustrate you like they have me over the past just two weeks ive been using this site ( and i know ive frustrated some aswell, but ye know people think differently). its different when you discuss with friends because at the end of the day you might have different opinions, but we respect each other and love the music. there is too much trivialising going on here, the music is meant to be played! just appreciate the music for what it is, and enjoy the fact that we are able to listen to so many different musicians.
you'll get far more out of playing and listening than any amount of discussing on this site. so just go and do it!!
now that ive got that off my chest... bring on the onslaught! (because i wont be around to see it! lol!)
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
ahh, Ruairi, don't let a little spirited discussion drive you away...
Of course it's better to discuss these things with people you know and respect, but if you stick around long enough, you'll find that there are a good number good people here to get to know an respect. And we can't all be out playing music all the time, so this site gives us an outlet to think about and discuss (or argue about) the music we love.
You have a unique perspective into the music, and are a useful addition to the site. And being the great player that you are only helps. The nice thing about an expansive, world-wide forum like this, is that it gives people that don't live in a place surrounded by the music some different perspectives, and that's a good thing. (People have to learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff, which is the difficult part, of course...)
Oh, and say hi to the family for me...
Pete
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by Reverend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
good number *OF* good people
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by Reverend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Touchy, Fiddleruairi, and you will read this.
On this site I have always mentioned the "humble bodhran". I always claim to be the "best in the world" albeit on a humble instrument. Of course the bodhran is to compliment the music, in a subtle manner.
For example, my favourite experiences are ONE flute, and me. I like the "old fashioned" style myself, and playing alongside a flute player is great. Not every young drummer plays top end and rolls and such.
As for bodhran solos, I have said a thousand times, "Why would anyone want to play a solo on the bodhran". What's the point?
John Joe by the way can be subtle at a session.
And although I can play the odd tune on a whistle and banjo, I wouldn't dream of saying they must be easy instruments to play. I also play 25,000 slow airs on the mandolin, and accompany songs, but will never be a good player. I can even play a tune on a piano, that doesn't mean it is an easy instrument.
Mind you, I was only playing for 21 years when you were born, so I suppose that makess me a lackwit.
Could I suggest you take things less seriously. The site does have a lot of wind ups, I do it often, but you could also learn a lot.
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Oh for god sakes fiddlerurai - its bloody personal taste! Brown nosing McGoldrick lovers indeed.
Boring - you know - I personally love the modern take on stuff - its my thing I love it. I grew up in a very pure drop trad house as well. So I think I am actually qualified to choose what I like. I never slag of pure drop people. But the fact that you just sit there spouting all this nonesense - about so and so being the best, and you only allowing so and so in your session because he plays this way is a joke!!!
You sound like a pure drop snob and you must be so proud that Comhltas has you on their website - I cringe when I hear that someone belongs to them. But each to their own....grow up - though at 21 youve a long way to go.
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by bb
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Bliss, if you are still out there can you re-read my first post. I would love to hear whether you think there is any link between good bodhran playing and dancing other than the obvious - being in time.
My original suggestion/question was about whether the bodhran acts as a substitute for the dancer in a session environment.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Certainly there is a link. When I see melody players stamping their foot to keep time I usually suggest they should either play a bodhran, or allow the drum to keep the time. That however requires the ability to listen to others, a trait some melody players struggle with.
The bodhran replaces the sound of the dancing feet, and if played correctly, should be a bit more subtle than the dancers.
A lot of these rolls and such were introduced because session musicians speed up the tunes, playing at a pace where dancers would not be able to keep up.
That is my humble opinion.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
"That is my humble opinion"
Indeed who would know better.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by Donough
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Who indeed.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
"That however requires the ability to listen to others, a trait some melody players struggle with."
I suspect you said that to be provocative. But I'm sorry to say, I think you're right all the same.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Unfortunately Benhall, I am.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Yeah. I posted a comment on some thread somewhere and got chastised for it ... 95% of diddley music is terrible.
By far the biggest contribution to that terrible 95% is the melody players' inability to listen.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
And this is inherantly interwoven with the ongoing "learn to play by ear" argument.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
We have indeed discussed this before Mr Llig. I remember you conceding the point.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Yep, I dislike what I see as an artificial division between player and accompanist. However, I appreciate that the discipline of listening is usually more accomplished in those who accompany. This is very bad and there is no excuse (other than the fact that they were taught to play tune from charts rather from listening, of course).
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Hear, hear!!
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Several people have said that they don't like a bodhran player who plays the same beat all time, and prefer one who "follows the tune" (whatever that is interpreted to mean).
My present attitude comes from personal experience:
Back in the 70's I sort of learned uilleann pipes, whistle, flute, and bodhran all at the same time (a method which I don't recommend). As a melody player, I knew the tunes and did my best, when playing drum, to come up with something that shadowed the tune as closely as possible.
I thought I was playing great: "look at me! I can almost play the whole f***ng tune on the drum!".
Then one night some old Irish guy shows up with a bodhran. I just put mine away and listened. He played the same reel beat all night. He was fantastic! He was SUPPORTING the music, adding an UNDERLYING BEAT, not futilely attempting to play the tunes.
Around the same time (late 70's) I saw the terrific Quebecois group La Boutine Souriante (sp?). They played reel after reel with a continuous accompaniment of their feet beating out a basic 1,34 1, 34 beat, the same beat the old Irish bodhran guy was using.
Early on in this thread somebody put forward the idea of the bodhran sort of being a bass. I agree: the bodhran's purpose is to add a basic underlying pulse as well as adding a bass voice to the otherwise trebley music.
I don't care at all for the "neo-bodhran" and its players who add constant high pinging going up and down in pitch like an out-of-control timpani.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Yes indeed, there is only so much you can do on a bodhran, you are a backer and should never forget that.
I have seen recent bands where the bodhran is the lead instrument.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Having researched a bit in Wikipedia, I discover that "...the bodhrán itself did not gain wide recognition as a legitimate musical instrument until the Irish traditional music resurgence in the 1950s....". It would therefore appear to be a relative newcomer to traditional irish music. How did we fiddle players et al ever manage without them before this?
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Ernie
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Having also researched a bit in Wikipedia, I discover that "...the fiddle itself did not gain wide recognition as a legitimate musical instrument until the bodhrán gained wide recognition as a legitimate musical instrument in the Irish traditional music resurgence in the 1950s....". It would therefore appear to be a relative newcomer to traditional irish music.
How did we accordion players et al ever manage without them before this?
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
The human voice is the oldest instrument of all...
Plenty of Ssshhhh please.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by John J.
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
The bloody piano vamping, that's your answer. We had the bodhran accompanying until someone invented the piano.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
Touché Conan!
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Ernie
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I'm a dancer. I play bodhran. I love melody and i love rhythm. If I'm dancing I want different moods in the music - major and minor, light and dark, depth and texture - a well-played bodhran brings a richness to the overall sound that no other instrument can replicate. A lousy musician is a lousy musician whether playing bodhran, fiddle, guitar or whistle - and any of them can ruin the session and the pleasure.
# Posted on July 4th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I think the sad part is so many people get caught up in what is traditional, what isn't, when we should have a bodhran playing, when we shouldn't... all of these are very subjective elements to be dealt with and noone wins a conversation with what is traditional and what isn't... that's a very narrow view for narrow minded players.
The trick is what works and what doesn't, not only within' session dynamics but within' the sets and tunes themselves. There's so many different ways to play bodhran, it's been my instrument for 7 years now. I play it in a more traditional manner on some tunes with heavy 1's, a more asturian driven melodic manner on other tunes and a more modern percussive style on tunes that call for that as well... and even on top of all that, alot of times I just don't play at all, the tune simply doesn't seem to call for it. Getting caught up in the history of it all and what traditionally should be in a session or not is typically a conversation driven by dogmatic melody players who have had bad experiences with bodhran players... and understandably so... as a bodhran player I've had horrible experiences with literally every other type of melody player that crash sessions and toss. It's simply what works and what doesn't... you have to listen to the tune and support the situation... that's a rule regardless of what instrument you're holding. But the more diverse of a bodhran player you are the more you are going to find yourself welcome in sessions and even have players pulling up a chair for you... but again, that's something that attributes itself with all instruments, not just a bodhran. Some people like to say it shoud be a bass support, some just percussive, some need it to stay traditional... screw all of those people... learn all of it if you want to be a great player... from traditional to contemporary styles. You'll soon find the only people that complain about either or ar the players who can't play in that manner and use the excuse that they simply don't care for it... all that does it limit yourself as a player.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by JohnnyVillain
Re: Purpose of Bodhran
I'm a bit confused about the bodhran, I'm a young player and no one's around to teach me anything. Are we supposed to play the same beat and rhythm throughout the whole tune or can we give an accompaniment? Every time I try and do something else, I'm told off for not keeping the beat by one person, then another person goes and says that I should do something else every once in a while. I end up muffling my sound completely and keep the simplest beat possible. I look like a fool.
# Posted on December 21st 2009 by thatbodhranist