A couple of recent threads by Shylock and Jussa Nutter Eejit got me to thinking about how I indulge my passion for this music in an otherwise busy life. And my answer came down to "play the tunes."
And I heard a whisper: "But how do you become the musician you can be by just playing the tunes? What about intonation, tone production, all the technical skills?"
Maybe it'll help Shylock, JNE (and his young son), and others if we all toss in our ideas about how we've learned to play this music well and to grow our abilities by...playing the music.
Here's a start, off the top of my head (in part gleaned from my own experience, in part from years of reading others' posts here). This may sound aimed at less experienced players, but even after 30 years, these strategies endlessly crop up in my playing.
1. Learn just a few tunes really well. Better to know a few tunes well than a lot of tunes half-baked.
2. Use your ears. Listen, listen, listen. To other players whose playing you admire. And to yourself.
3. Pay attention to the details. As you play a tune, notice how it feels when the tone is strong and clear, when the timing and rhythm are grooving, when the intonation is "on." Ingrain that feel into your brain and bones. Lather, rinse, repeat. The tunes are your etudes, they contain everything you need to learn in order to play them. Scale runs, arpeggios, the gamut of intervals, timing and rhythm idioms, common motifs, etc. It's all there.
4. Play slow to play well. Don't gloss over things by playing too fast for comfort or sloppily. If a phrase is giving you trouble, first see #5 below, then suss out that phrase. Play it s---l---o---w---l---y a few times. Sound every note with clarity and accuracy. Then put it back in the tune.
5. Relax. R-E-L-A-X. Aim to play effortlessly. Music is effortlessness, not perfection or speed or virituosity.
6. *Play* the music. Have fun with it, explore it (and yourself). Respect the tradition, but don't take yourself too seriously. Play with a sense of humour, generosity, compassion.
7. Persevere, but be patient with yourself. Some things take time. Enjoy the journey and the destination will take care of itself.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL, c'mon Michael. You've given some good tips in the past that are worth repeating here, so we can point people to one thread with all the good stuff in one place. Dish up.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
A specific example just popped into my mind.
Even though I rarely use vibrato in this music, it's a nice technique to have at hand. I use it now and then when playing with fluters and whistler players who use finger vibrato on slow airs or sometimes on the last note of a tune.
But the main benefit I got from learning vibrato on fiddle was that it freed up my left hand--you can't properly do vibrato if your thumb is clamped down on the neck.
So a classical teacher once explained the basic motion and concept, and then I went off and played some (mostly non Irish) tunes that vibrato seemed to fit into--Ashokan Farewell, Tennessee Waltz, etc. And I wiggled my fingers when I heard vibrato in my head. Each day, I snuck these tunes into my playing, and tried to get my fingers to produce the sound in my head. After a week or so, I could get an ugly cousin of vibrato in the appropriate bits of a tune. But if I tried to just do vibrato on its own, outside a tune, nothing worked. Two weeks in and the vibrato was really coming along--relaxed and even--in certain tunes. It took months more to get consistent and comfortable with it, but since then (many years ago) it's never gone away, no matter how little I use it.
The same process has worked for me with cuts, rolls, triplets--all the various articulations we use to play this music. It's fun because you can (if you choose) consciously hone these skills even while cranking through tunes at a session. It's not "practice" or even directed playing so much as simply attentive playing. And ever mindful of the crack.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Sorry Will. OK then ...
The music IS the tunes.
I think I'd be struggling to come up with anything more profound than that.
(but please don't be fooled into thinking that you can learn the tunes from the pitiful postings on this website. The only way to learn the tunes is to listen to them. Listening is more important than playing. If you want to learn to play the tunes, by far the most important thing is to learn to listen. No amount of working on technique, scales, bowing, blowing etc will help you learn tunes. Out of all the advice you may get from different people, out of all the conflicting trifles, out of all the crazy top tips, the only important thing is to learn to listen. And that includes listening to yourself)
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Play with as many different players as possible. This will open you up to all different kind sof styles (whether good or bad). At the very least it will help you find out how ya want to sound and maybe, just maybe ya might even have a little bit of fun along the way. Drinking helps too. Lots of drinking.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I agree with everything you listed, Will. I'd add some things from my experience:
1. Play for dancers and dance to the music if you can. Not as a requirement (i.e., if you don't play for dancers, you will never play the music properly), but as a way to add a dimension to your playing. It is dance music, after all. Playing for dancers and dancing sets from Kerry and Cork helped me learn a lot about the music, its rhythm, tempo, and dynamics. I have also been able to meet lots of people I might not have met if I weren't at a dance either playing or dancing. And its really fun and social.
2. You learn quickly, but I don't think it is possible to start out playing as fast as you want. So, I echo "be patient and relax." Many of the beginners I have played with over the years want to play tunes as fast as (fill in the blank of fiddle player(s)) and are disppointed that it doesn't happen as fast as they want. Takes time.
3. At the same time, though, try to play the music the way you hear it. This is similar to what Will says about pay attention to the details. Listen closely to the tune you are learning, then listen closely to yourself playing it. Get the details into your playing.
4. Play with others. If you are just beginning, find another or others who are just beginning. If there is a session near you and you can play some tunes, go and play them. And listen to how others play the tunes. I think this was the most important part of my own learning. I was lucky to be in a place where people playing this music when I first started and the musicians were always generous with their time. I learned a lot from playing with them as well as talking with them.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, it is turning out to be a good post Will. (apart from my Jig goading, sorry). It's a good idea to have a post that we can link to when ever someone asks one of the generic questions of how do you learn to play.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
In order to improve my playing, I borrow my wife's cheap tape recorder so I can record myself and then I play it back while I listen to myself playing. I have learned that listening to myself is interesting, instructive, and sometimes painful.
Since we all have two ears and one mouth, I have always assumed that we are supposed to do twice as much listening as talking.
Listening to other musicians to hear how they might play the same tunes you like to play is indeed very important.
Relaxing and learning to enjoy playing this music is also important.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Good stuff, everyone. The reminders about playing for dancers (and stepping onto the dance floor yourself) and playing with others, and always listening are all spot on.
I can imagine a parallel thread (or just a strand within this one) all about how to really listen to this music. Letting it wash over you, but also diving deep into it so it fills your ears. The tone and dirt of it, the pulse like your own pulse when you hold your hands over your ears, the timing--spaces between notes and beats, all the millions of nuanced articulations. So much to hear, to absorb.
I wonder if it helps people to name the bits--timbre, timing, melody, contour, etc., so they can be more attentive to them? Or if that just gets in the way? Horses for courses, I suppose.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Oh sure, I go to the Irish American Club meeting to fiddle for the local step dance school, and everybody takes all the good answers already, I see how it is. Ah well, it was a pot luck at least, mmm...
Speaking of which, news flash! It's dance music! Shake yer booty! Best thing I've ever done to understand the music was to play in a ceili band and now play for a troupe of step dancers. Session speed is somewhere in between the two. The girls with the curls like it slow so they can do their complex steps and kicks, while the old folks at the VFW like it SUPER fast so they can shuffle and spin.
You're learning a language, when you're learning 'the music'. Like learning a language, immersing your ears in it is the only way to learn how to speak it fluently. You love the music? You want to play the music? I would expect you're listening to the music, you know, for fun? A lot? I mean, I no longer listen to the iPod while I sleep, so that's good, but there were a few years there...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Hi Will and all,
First I want to thank everyone again for helping me a month or so ago. I'm the one with the tedonnitis in my left hand. I was able to avoid the doc. I used a carpal tunnel brace 24/7 taking it off only to practice fiddle. I focused on vibrato, bowing and relaxing every muscle while I played some very basic tunes very slowly. I limited my time to 1/2 hour. Heat, ibuprofen and all the above solved my issue. After 2 weeks I was 80% better. Brace came off and I started practicing all my tunes again, very slowly with light fingers and relaxed hand. Was still tender for a while but now there are no issues. I am back to playing 1 to 2 hous daily. The most difficult thing is not playing fast as this tenses me up and gets me to start to strangling my poor fiddle neck again.
After 4 1/2 months of playing fiddle everything is improving nicely. Thank you all. Your advice here is invaluable to a beginner like myself. I read most posts.
As to this post, very excellent advice. For me and my "issues" as a novice I would re-order them a little putting them in order of importance as 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 6, 7.
'Relax' is critical to me as I have a tendency to tense up because I am trying so hard to be perfect. Plus having a music background felt I should be advancing faster and am probably trying too hard. Fiddle by far the most difficult instrument I have ever picked up, (for me anyway) with so many technical issues to get right in order to make it sound good. God I love to pick it up everyday and just play what I can, as well as I can. I learn something new about either the fiddle or myself everyday. Can't seem to get enough. (I think my wife is getting a little jealous about my relationship with my fiddle)
That reminds me. I just discovered this past weekend that my shoulder rest was adjusted incorrectly(I think) for me. Maybe you can shed some light here ;>)! It was set up(my fault) with the top shoulder set low and bottom chest part up high causing the fiddle to lay more flat or parallel to the floor. By this I mean the from side to side not shoulder to hand. I know to keep the fiddle up and not pointing at the floor. This flatter angle forced me to strain my left hand further around to reach all the strings on top also contributing to my tendonitis I believe.
I just realized that if I raised the to shoulder part of the rest and lower the chest portion, the fiddle(fingerboard) angles downward(@45 deg.) toward my bowing hand and allows my left hand fingers easier access to all the strings. Had to re-adjust my bowing angle a little bit but a very quick easy adjustment. I hope this is ok to do and that I'm not going to cause a problem somewhere else.
Anway, all the advice on this post for beginners is excellent, keep up the great work and keep us beginners in mind, greatly appreciated.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Right on Pete. I suffer a little bit from that as well, and I remember your post. Don't feel badly, I got a shoulder rest for the first time in my life (an traumatic signpost of age I tell ya) and had the thing backwards like you're talking about as well. My forearm didn't waste any time telling me I was an idiot, though, I was listening.
I was trained classically as a child, and it's natural to press harder on the strings because you have to. Now that I'm adult I don't have to, but it's a daily battle not to when I begin to concentrate, or exert a lot of effort, there's the problem, and it ties in with the effortlessness thing. Vibrato (though not much needed unless you plan on annoying purists) is useful in forcing you to relax, like Will said above: 'thumb clamped on fiddle' 'free up left hand'.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I've found that the worst thing you can possibly do is to listen to the music. Never ever listen to sessions or CDs - they'll just confuse you. The people playing in sessions and on CDs can't even play the tunes in the proper rhythm. They play some quavers longer than others, and it's not meant to be like that and I'll prove it. Take a look at the sheetmusic for any reel or jig. Each of the fast notes is the same length, right? It says so on the page, and you can't argue with that! Now I've done a lot of practice, I can play all these notes smoothly and evenly, each of a consistent length (I know that because I recorded myself and then slowed it down using computer software and actually looked at the waveform I'd produced). I can play all the notes exactly the same length just like the midi files. That just comes with practice. You'll get there someday if you work hard it like I have.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Will's thread getting a bit too touchy-feely for you there, Dow, ya troublemaker?
A couple of things that I'd like to add.
Have FUN while you're learning, and take pride in the sense of personal accomplishment. I played trumpet as a kid, but practicing was as bad as homework - rigorous, structured, boring, or whatever. So I gave up music for years, and am constantly amazed at how much fun I have playing it now - and I look forward to practicing! If you're lucky, you'll be surrounded by other players that are constantly encouraging you. You may not feel like you're making fast enough progress, but relax, be patient, and have fun. If it isn't fun, why would you do it? It's not likely to replace your "day job", after all...
Don't wait until you're "ready" to start playing with other people. You'll likely never feel "ready", and the only way to get good at playing with other people is to do it. If you have a local session, go to it, even if it's just to listen for a while. If you take an instrument to a session, and only get to play one tune all night, you're still better off for having been there, listening all night.
Don't try to tell yourself that you "can't learn by ear", that's a copout. We have all learned by ear all of our lives. (Can you sing "Happy Birthday"? Did you ever read the music for it? Do you sing along to songs on the radio?) Yes, learning by ear is a skill that can (and should) be developed and practiced. But we ALL learn by ear, you learned how to speak by ear, after all...
Don't worry about bogging yourself down with music theory at the outset. It can be handy to know some of that stuff, but most of this music wasn't composed with the theory in mind, and doesn't necessarily fit cleanly into it. As you learn more music, the theory will become more apparent to you, so if you don't know the difference between a D major scale, and a D mixolydian scale, don't worry about it when you're first starting. It's not going to stop you from learning tunes in D and Dmix...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Once you're at the stage when you're actually playing the tunes at a reasonable pace, ie not slowly as when you're learning the tune.......
KEEP THE RHYTHM.
I repeat,
Keep the Rhythm.
Keep it driving.
This music is, mostly, or is derived from, Dance Music.
And I'd go as far as to say KEEP THE RHYTHM at the expense of a few ornaments if you have to decide one or the other.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
When you're listening to tunes, tap your foot. When you pick your instrument to try out the tune, tap your foot and aim to pick out the main phrases, the important notes - then when you've got the basic structure - pay attention to the bits in between, if you haven't already figured them out. That's part of my basic approach.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Play a little every day. Even if you have only a spare 5 min. here and there, play those 5 minutes. You loose momentum if you haven't had the instrument in your hands for a few days.
Dow, I would love to hear your midi perfect tune playing, please share!
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Dow's post reminds me of my favorite bio:
1) Play loudly and continuously.
2) Start a set of tunes the instant the regulars finish playing.
3) Make sure your tunes are unusual enough to impress.
4) Tap your foot against the chair of the musician in front of you.
5) If you get a chance (let's say, for example someone stands up to pass a cigarette across the table), shuffle the chair of the person in front of you over to the side little by little to make room for yourself within the central group, where you are much more likely to be noticed.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I did learn the tunes from the dots (which I am currently trying to substitute to listening whenever its possible) and what always helped me was to remind me that these were not set in stone, only a starting point from where i would readjust the tune to the local session version and to the instruments sound.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
>>4) Tap your foot against the chair of the musician in front of you.
WTF's s/he doing in front of you anyway?
I was under the impression that you open up the circle so that everyone is included. If someone is parked right in front of you that's feckin bad manners and they deserve to get their chair tapped, at the very least.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
If you are coming to this music new, especially if you have come from a different music idiom, do not learn tunes from sheet music.
what a didactic ,bigoted, narrow minded statement.
there is nothing wrong with learning tunes from music,providing you have recordings of the tune,[that youlisten to] to give you ideas of the lilt .phrasing. etc. Dick Miles
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
You have to be able to pick up the music with your ear. This is a pre-requisite. Why? because the dots do not contain anywhere near enough information. If you have a recording and the dots, the only way to tell if what pitiful information that is in the dots matches what is in the recording is if you have a good enough ear. If you do have a good enough ear, you don't need the dots. If you don't have a good enough ear, practise until you do.
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The dots are simply a means to an end. What end? To learn how to play the tune you are hearing from whichever source you use, recording, a friend, a session, etc. Any tools used (dots, etc.) should be used towards that goal of being able to play properly what you are hearing, what is in your ears and head already.
The big danger is using dots without anything in your ears! There is no sight reading in Irish Traditional music.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
PadraigoKeefe,JamesMorrison,SeamusCreagh,PaddyJones, teach/ taught their pupils with sheet music.
GeorgeWhelan, James Morrison taught the tunes with specific bowing instructions.
Micheal Gill knows better.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with using dots,while attempting to pick up a tune from a recording,it is rather like learning to ride a bike with stabilisers.,it is a tool[a fallback when the player is unsure] that can be used in developing and improving the use of the ear.
being able to read music, also gives a person the opportunity,.to play tunes that may not be available[or easily accessible on a recording]
being able to pick up tunes by ear ,and also being able to read music are both useful skills.
presumably Micheal Gill also disapproves of people using abc type music in conjunction with listening.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Amazing how threads about learning usually degenerate into arguments about learning from the dots, but it's an important topic. Llig's point is well taken that someone who is a beginner, especially one who already plays a different style of music, should learn by listening. Because they are otherwise doomed to playing Irish very poorly.
I consider the dots to be simply a memory aid, the same way that you might use 3x5 cards with notes for giving a speech. Everybody would be able to tell if you were reading directly from the notes while you were talking, because it wouldn't sound as natural or fluid. (But don't take that analogy too far - You don't want the dots in front of you when you're playing, even if it's as a memory aid. You need to learn to internalize the shape of the tune, and nurture your ability to listen, remember, and play the tunes by ear)
I help run a weekly tune learning session. We do not allow sheet music to appear during that session (other than for the occasional reminder of how a tune starts, maybe). I will occasionally send someone an ABC file of the particular setting of a tune that I taught, but much more often, I'll just record it and send it as an mp3. We found that when we put ABC and recordings on our website, people stopped coming to the session to learn and play tunes, and therefore were missing out on the two most important parts, learning by ear, and playing with other people!
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Dick, I am not in that much disagreement with you, when you talk about using the dots in *conjunction* with listening - as either a memory aid, or as a reference for when you're not good enough at listening yet to pick up a certain note or phrase.
But I think Llig's suggestion is an important one. Don't learn tunes from the dots, learn them from listening. Use the dots as a tool if you must, but not as a *source*.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
In the old days, some teachers used music notation as a memory aid for their students. Portable recording devices weren't available back then, so this was the only back up to aural memory. Many other teachers did not use music notation, preferring to teach by ear.
Today, with tape recorders, minidisks, and mp3 recorders, it's really easy for a teacher to lay down a tune or a whole lesson for the student. I encourage all my students to bring a recording device to every lesson, and to regularly use it at home. Playing along to a recording of me playing the tune at an easy pace is a thousand times more instructive than playing from ink on the page. This option wasn't readily available to O'Keefe, Morrison, and the other early teachers.
As Michael clearly said, ***if you're NEW*** to this music, weaning yourself from sheet music and immersing yourself in the *sound* of it is crucial and will lead to greater progress. Sadly, lots of musicians who come from other genres (especially classical) assume they can pick up this music from the dots, and they favor sight reading over aural immersion. They usually end up sounding like Dow in his midi duet. ( )
Once you really understand what this music is all about, yes, it's possible to pick up tunes from the dots. But even then, it's a distant second best to just using your ears.
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Rev, I could live with the disagreements if people would stick to disagreeing over content instead of taking every opportunity to bash the person behind the content.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
What concise accurate description: '' what a didactic ,bigoted, narrow minded statement.''
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who feels that to be the case.
Besides, If you don't particularly wish to conform to a preconceived concept of what ITM 'should' sound like then you can learn tunes from the dots and play them as you choose. It may not sound like our preconceived ideas of what ITM 'should' sound like, but so what? Who are you playing your music for? who's life are you living?
''You have to be able to pick up the music with your ear. This is a pre-requisite''
If you wish to follow the law of LLig. yes. If you want to enjoy your self and play music with your friends and couldn't care less if it conforms to a narrow minded, bigoted , concept of what ITM 'should' sound like then you dont. Here in Co Clare, some teachers of ITM use dots. That,s Clare born and bred. The dots are a tool. No more and no less.
''There is no sight reading in Irish Traditional music'' Ahh says who? Llig? or who is your authority you 're quoting to make such an unqualified statement?
Its a bit like L|azyhound saying there is no place in ITM for playing over the fingerboard... Tell that to Paddy Canny...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Thanks for the great points here guys. As a fairly new player, I am always interested in the learning process-- how to play my instrument, how to learn new tunes, how to play the tunes better, etc. Thanks for the lesson! Pat
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If you don't have a preconceived notion of what ITM should sound like, you're going to play it wrong. Period. I'm not going to stop you from playing wrong (because maybe you play it solely for your own selfish reasons), but I'm not going to want you ruining the day for all of us who work on playing it right.
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the problem with many teachers who teach purely by ear,is that they produce replicas of their own style,even down to the ornamentation.
whereas, what they should be doing is exposing the pupil to different styles,for example a good fiddle teacher should be able to expose their pupil .to say Sligo style or clare style or whatever.
if apupil buys Morrisons book,the Cranitch book and the Mcnevin book they are going to be aware of three different styles,that in my opinion is better than turning into aclone of your teacher.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
What styles are they getting out of the books? (Are there accompanying CDs, maybe?) They may get some different settings of stuff, but setting is only a small part of "style". How do you notate the Clare style vs. the Sligo style?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
So dickens, each of those books focuses on its own approach to the music. You have to buy all three to get three different "styles."
So why not go to three different teachers (especially over a span of several years)?
Nearly every fiddler I've ever learned from has shown a range of styles and approaches for this music. The good players and teachers are acutley aware of the variety out there. It's not at all unusual for a teacher to show how Michael Coleman did it, how Paddy Killoran did it, how Bobby Casey did it, how Martin Hayes might do it, how Kevin Burke might do it, etc. Your assumption that teachers teach only their own approach ignores the many great players and teachers out there who do so much more than that. Have you not met such teachers?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Will CPT - All your points in your original post echo comments I have heard and embraced from several other quality players I have known and learned from over the past 14 years. I'm not sure how my question regarding kiddie fiddle tunes prompted it, but I'm glad it did. I will say this, most folks who sincerely set out to learn this music come to know all your points in a fairly short amount of time - I have yet to meet a player, say two or three years into this journey, that doesn't know the simple outline you have articulated above. I think it's because even in the most remote outreaches of the session world with the most humblest of players to learn from, these truths become self-evident fairly quickly - wouldn't you agree? It has been the case in my limited experience.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
JNE, yep, it's all fairly common sense (though apparently not everyone agrees).
Shylock's thread about how to make the most of your time was the prime spark for this thread, but it also seems highly relevant to sharing this music and the trad mindset with your son. Particularly as a bit of an antidote or alternative to the Suzuki approach (which is very good in its own way). That's all I was thinking.
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It wasn’t until I gave up on relying on sheet music for tune learning, that I got honest to god bounce in my barndance(s). Oh I had a hint of it, but realized the difference in my playing. When I gave up the printed matter, my listening skills were honed to such a degree that I was able to learn a tune strictly by ear. God, did that feel great. It was a huge leap in learning. I’ve retained the tunes, have “bounce” and generally feel better about my playing.
Learning by ear is difficult at first, but as I had a great teacher, I worked through it. Sheet music is great when you’re just not sure if you’ve got it right. But it really doesn’t aid in the learning of the music. It takes intensive listening to learn, rather than a musical bubble bath style of listening.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
P.S. My intent in starting this thread was to have one place we could refer others to when they raise questions about how to learn this music. The fresh thread on inconsistency is a case in point--session savage would do well, I think, to try the ideas in this thread if he wants to be a more consistenly good player.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
"PadraigoKeefe,JamesMorrison,SeamusCreagh,PaddyJones, teach/ taught their pupils with sheet music."
Dick - That is a very different scenario from learning tunes straight off the page, without exposure to the music. Their pupils would hear the tunes played by their teacher, thus hearing all those features of the music that the dots fail to convey. Furthermore, many of those pupils (of the older teachers in particular) would have already been immersed in the music from birth, so the teacher would have assumed that they would know intuitively what it was supposed to sound like (...perhaps not so nowadays, as so many outsiders to the tradition are learning the music.). It was merely an easy way of showing them which notes to play before they had developed the ear skills to work it out for themselves.
"GeorgeWhelan, James Morrison taught the tunes with specific bowing instructions."
There may be some controversy around whether or not to teach a set way of playing a tune. But this is an entirely different issue to the ear vs. dots argument. The bowing instructions taught by Whelan and Morrison were indisputably traditional, the tradition being *made up of* those very players and others like them - so there was no danger of their pupils learning non-traditional habits.
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I am hoping you good citizens of the mustard board will not allow this excellent thread to descend into another beaten down argument of ear training vs dot learning - it's so much more than that. Re-read Will CPT's original post, then dive into the good stuff - much clearer waters there...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
'f you don't have a preconceived notion of what ITM should sound like, you're going to play it wrong. Period''
What is this? a competition to see who can can the most dogmatic statement.? ! 8-: Reverend , actually I suggest perhaps its you who are playing it 'wrong.' ?
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"The problem with many teachers who teach purely by ear,is that they produce replicas of their own style,even down to the ornamentation."
Dick - Might that not also have been the case with Whelan and Morrison? Is that necessarily a bad thing? Isn't that why regional and local styles exist. The more creative pupils will end up playing whatever music is in their heads, no matter what they're *told* to play. The rest, at the very least, will learn to play in a good style - better than playing without style, no?
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"if apupil buys Morrisons book,the Cranitch book and the Mcnevin book they are going to be aware of three different styles,that in my opinion is better than turning into aclone of your teacher."
Better still, learn by ear from Morrison, Cranitch and McNevin
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"Your assumption that teachers teach only their own approach ignores the many great players and teachers out there who do so much more than that. Have you not met such teachers?"
That's not always necessarily the case, Will. My teacher teaches in his own style---he might show me different approaches, but I've never seen him do something like, "in Sligo they would play it like this, but in Donegal they would play it like this, but I play it like this"...
This is all fine with me because I happen to have a pretty good cd collection and I listen to anything I can get my hands on, so I don't need him to educate me on stylistic differences. If I *really* wanted to learn how Donegal fiddlers do their thing, I would probably go spend some time in Donegal and spend time with some of the fiddlers there.
But as for books, I agree, there is no way anyone can learn a style from a book.
And as for learning from books so as not to become a clone of a teacher---dickens, you're really missing the point here. You're advocating diluting the example of a real live teacher with any combination of unfiltered examples from various books? Why bother with the teacher if the books tell you everything? And where is the listening component of all this?
Oh yes, as for advice for future readers of this thread---take advantage of every opportunity you can find to learn from a real teacher, whether in lessons, workshops, or other experienced musicians.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
the crantich book comes with audio assistance, the idea is to use the two together.
better stiil learn by ear,not necessarily,
I would suggest doing both.
Morrisons book gives detailed bowing.
learn the peices at the same time if thereare recordings accessible go and listen.
in the end ,everyone has different reasons for playing,if somebody gets pleasure reading from the dots,then they shouldnt be mde to feel guilty.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Good point, Kennedy--real live mentors, in person, are the best way to learn this music. Not everyone has easy access to them, but there are always opportunities--musicians on tour passing through your town, travel to a concert, workshop, or festival, etc. Make it the point of a vacation, eh?
And I realize that not all teachers go into the various styles. All I'm saying is that *many* do. Besides, there's nothing wrong with learning from one person's approach to the music, and then learning from other people their approaches, etc. Very little risk of becoming a "clone," unless you have cloth ears and a mind shut to other influences.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Hey Will: Thanks for starting this; I appreciate your good intentions. But since it seems to be turning into yet another p*ssing contest, I'll just share what I consider to be the two best pieces of musical advice that I've received (both from professional musicians, but not in ITM):
- "...work with people who are better than you are."
- "Try to make the *band* sound good, as opposed to making yourself sound good."
I'm getting my coat. I'll reserve my, um, "manifesto" for my members page.
I dislike repeating glib quotes without elaboration (although already having done it twice), but from Spinal Tap: "...have a good time. all the time"
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
SWFL, that's a little rigid, I think. What if you found a great old book of rare tunes from 50 years ago and some of them looked interesting? Why not try them? There have been more than a few tunes resurrected that way. What if someone sends you abc's to a tune and tells you to learn it, it's a great tune?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
seems like there's no point in attempting to learn a tune from sheetmusic until you're familiar enough with the music to make a reasonable interpretation - and even then, who was it that said they could always tell when a student had learned a tune from the dots? (I read that here once) If you haven't played it enough to make it your own, it will always sound a bit canned. I suppose you can almost say the same about learning tunes from any other source - it's not going to sound like music until you inflict your own mis-rememberings and arpeggiatic predilections upon it...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Much different story kennedy, we're trying to help learners here, and the last thing a learner should be doing is trying to sight read something without any knowledge of how the music sounds.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Amen to that, tomw. After much sessioning and band work those comments ring 100% true. I could not put it better if I had a week to think about it! The idea is to make music ain't it? so it's not about 'you' it's about what you can contribute to that sound, what you can learn from listening and then putting into practice and there is no better way than playing with 'the best' as long as they are prepared to tolerate your efforts. If you are playing for a 'dance', again it's not about you - you are there to serve the needs of the dancers. If it ain't got that 'thing' they won't enjoy it and neither will you. It takes time and lots of effort, Llig's joke about 25 years of hard labour does, to my mind, have a kernal of truth.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
''Your motivation to learn a tune should be because you heard it.''
Should be? Where does 'should' come in to art
Anyhow when I play a tune from the dots I listen to it . if I like it , enough I might learn it.
It doesnt matter where i get a tune from, I will make it my own.
The whole title of this thread is a leading question. the one true way?
If you want to learn to play tunes,go to a highly qualified teacher. simple. In fact go to several. twice a week at minimum so you dont practice your mistakes enough to ingrain them. simple. practice every day. If you want to become good , practice a lot every day, dedicate your life to it. Immerse your self in it . use every aid there is. including scales arpeggio, dots, Dont restrict yourself to 'the one true way' there is no 'one true way'. It is a fabrication of self important people. Enjoy your music. Enjoy your life .
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Dude, you’re not a beginner. This is for beginners, Will's intent was to help people learn. I don’t think novices sight reading without any clue about what the music sounds like is going to help anyone, least of all themselves.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Fair enough, but you get my point? there are no should's in art. If you want your art to conform to certain criteria then , ok, it is advisable to understand those criteria.
?if you are a beginner, practice scales and arpeggio, they are the building blocks of all the tunes., thats my advice For how long?; depends on the individual, for me I still enjoy that practice, sure it is only one small part of my practice , but as you say I am no beginner. A number of people virulently object to me posting this advice. It is not the 'one true way' well get over it folks I dont agree with you. . free speech.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well here's a bit more free speech. I'm just idly looking around the threads here and I've come across you peddling this crap twice in five minutes. Why don't you just go and practise your scales or something and stop trying to give lousy, damaging advice?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
And isn't that just one massive difference, SWFL.
In modern art (painting) it's like avant garde jazz, anything goes if you can get away with it, and get paid.
But ITM is more comparable to Russian Icons, with fixed rules about what is acceptable and what isn't. Within the rules there's plenty of scope, but if you break the rules it's no longer within that traditional art form.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Exactly wolfbird. In using that old language analogy again, I mean, you can choose to speak the language however the heck you want, but is anyone going to understand what you're saying if your language doesn't conform to the accepted linguistic standards? You'd sound like the white kid at the hip-hop show. "Hey funky dudes, may I kick it with you fellows?"
...but not everyone may care, and that's fine, to each their own, fair play to all, but the thread's about helping newbies learn Irish Traditional music, I thought.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
So is trad not art?
At what point does something become traditional?
What are the boundaries of this 'tradition'?
Who sets them?
Who stretches them?
If you or I wish to play tunes in a 'non-traditional' manner, are they still playing trad? or is it another genre?
Which 'tradition'? Clare? London , travellers?
What are these 'traditions' anyhow?
From whence did they originate? What do we actually know about this thing we call tradition?
Why do we play the music? for our selves? the audience?
Where do we cater for people who want to play their tunes in a non-'traditional' manner? Are they excluded? do they have to follow the 'one true way' to be accepted?
Why 'should' we conform to a narrow minded version of ITM? Where do Eastern european tunes come in? they're at the sessions. Does the 'tradition' encompass Scottish tunes? welsh? Manx? Irish American? American? Canadian?
What instruments are traditional? why? says who?
A lot of these questions are raised and to some extent answered here. There is no 'one true way'. The diversity of life is to be celebrated , not restricted and forced to conform to some 'one true way'.
What you class as ' traditional' is different to what I call trad. Is your concept i more valid than mine?
Sure we all accept there are guidelines. but to rigidly impose those guidelines on others, now there you have fascism.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Art, as I understand it, covers music, theatre, dance, painting, literature, etc. ITM comes in a sub-category, generic traditional music. It's boundaries are decided by the carriers of the tradition amongst themselves.
The concept of trad held by the majority will automatically more valid than yours, jig. It's not a matter of 'my opinion is as good as yours', because it's a group thing, a general consensus.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
jig, contrary to your imaginings, the title of this thread doesn't imply any "one true way." It's merely a signpost for anyone wandering by who might want to learn to play this music (Irish traditional music, just to be clear) by playing the tunes themselves, as has been done for generations.
As you have suggested previously, if this thread doesn't suit your tastes, perhaps you'd enjoy spending your time elsewhere....
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well everyone I have ever had a lesson or master class with has *not* repeat *NOT* used the dots.
I used to rely heavliy on ABCs when I was starting out. One day my teacher came in grabed my ABCs and put them in the bin and said 'Its time to learn by ear, trust me - you'll thank me for it"
And you know what? I do thank her for it, its by far the fastest and easiest way to pick up tunes. I could name drop about all the teachers as well, but I wont.
Also Michael G is spot on - there is not enough information in sheet music. So you have to be a good listener to get anything out of the dots, so why dont you just then pick up tunes by listening?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Ah, traditionally we are, taught scales first. so I really dont know what you are on about. As has been done for generations.
'' majority will automatically more valid than yours, jig. '' Ahh tyranny of the majority is it, that's an interesting concept WB, shall we explore it a bit more deeply? .
Who are this majority and how does one become part of them? does one have to be Irish? or play ITM? for how long before you qualify? so lets see , what's your position?How long do you have to play to become a valid card carrying member of the majority>? 1 year ? 5 years? 15 yrs? 20 yrs? 25 yrs?
Sorry will, am I disagreeing with you? Am I not free to contribute to 'your' thread? So you agree there is no 'one true way' ? great thats good. So you wont get all upset and start insulting me again ?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Oh and I agree with the poster before who said just go into and sit in sessions, even if you only know one tune, even if they dont play that one tune at least you'll have been there 3 hours soaking up the tunes.
I get very worried when people talk about learning style from books, surely style is something you pick up from people you play tunes with, listen to on records, go and see in concerts etc?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Wolbird - I have never seen a thread that does not go off into something completely different - that is part of the fun - or depression - whichever way you look at it.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
no. bb i dont think so, that is not style but mimicry.
Style is something that develops internally, that is an expression of your character. Mimicry is a stage on the road to style, but it all has to be internalised and organically grow from within.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, bb, and I'm one of the worst offenders. My brain is like one of those shopping trolleys with a bent wheel, and jumps to others issues as it's natural habit. However, several people stated that this thread be for beginners who visit the site wanting to learn. It'll be a shame IMO, if that aim gets turned into a train wreck, which is inevitable if we get into the twenty or more topics jig just introduced.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
And where I live there is no 'Style' Regional or otherwise, and we get alot of people from Ireland who play tunes coming through from all different parts of Ireland and all with different styles. So the "Style" part is a bit wasted on where we are, sure I like alot of different "Styles" but I'm not going to sit down and start playing "East Galway Style" - cause that would be totally naff - cause I'm not from East galway. I have my own style - its called the "Inner West" style, and I think it may just catch on. One of the tricks is to play exactly like Dow does....then you can have the Inner West Style as well.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I think you're referring to two different kinds of "style" there. There's the style of music, and your personal style of playing it.
Since we're talking about beginners here, we're talking about the style of the music - the bits that can't be notated in dots, and the parts that make it sound like Irish music - the lift, swing, lilt, nyah, etc.
A personal style is developed over years of playing and developing an understanding of the style of the music.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
So what else is out there?
answer,enjoyment,
it doesnt matter ,as long as you get enjoyment from your music,whether you are playing at home with or without dots.
if somebody comes from a classical background and is used to reading music,and needs to gradually get used to a different discipline,why shouldnt they.
sheet music gives you a lot of information,
it is good to listen to good players,unfortunately there are many not so good players,who dont listen to other musicians,many of these players are players who cant read music,and are not very musical.
some cant play in tune, some cant play in rhythm.
most musicians from a classical background,have learned certain disciplines,playing in time, playing in tune,
most classical musicans I have encountered,in time learn to understand,the difference beteween the two different styles,and most have a good technique.
Iam not a classical musician
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Wow Dickens - you are lucky - Ive only ever seen a classical Violinist cross over to trad successfully twice in my life, and I know alot of fiddle players.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
The thing is this concept of 'classical' players includes everyone from a lass with half a dozen lessons to one who has dedicated their life to music gone through the Paris conservatoire and been a successful soloist. Its such a wide definition it is pretty meaningless.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I think someone who had half a dozen lessons would be safe - I mean more people who have gone through the grades, after that kind of thing is drilled into you its very hard to let go.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well I have a friend who indeed went to the Paris conservatoire. Lives over here and plays trad excedingly well. so the other end of the spectrum also.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
This thread is called "Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes". The tyranny of the majority and how Traditions get defined by previous generations is on Floor 7 next to "Housewares". Thanks for shopping at Buzzkills!
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
If he or she plays trad exceedingly well perhaps you could ask him or her if he or she would just mind sticking up a sound-clip or two. I'd really like that, as would lots of other people around here I'm sure.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Anyway.... back to the playing of tunes. I refer you all to the home page of this site, which I will call "exhibit A" - the word "tunes" appears three times. Case rested.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL, airport, don't look now, but Jeremy's gone and revised the home page. I just checked. It reads:
"Welcome to jig's Session
The exchange of bad advice, scale and arpeggio drills, and gratuitous insults is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on scales, arpeggios, and metronome exercises.
Some of these exercises are well known, and some are more obscure. It's this mixture of the familiar and the new that makes for a session where the craic is 90."
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL! I see he's changed the color too, which is probably good. I've always suspect the bilious color contributes to certain folks getting their pants in a celtic twist!
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
There is something that I learned as I learned to play tunes, but I am not quite sure how to express it. I learned to take my mind out of the loop, kind of. I have always been uncoordinated, and tend to overthink when I try to play sports, ball falling out of the glove as I am figuring out exactly how to catch it. But this music moves quickly enough that if you attempt to think about it, you will be lost. So you just have to leap in and let your fingers find their spots on the whistle or whatever. You have to 'be the music,' I guess you could say. Just fall into the groove, and let the music play you, I guess would be another way to express it. And it feels great when you get to the point that you can do that. Does that make sense to anyone?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
It does to me, AlBrown. I also think the more you play, the more the music plays you. Imagine when you first started, were playing a tune and hit a wrong note. When that happened to me I was totally fummoxed. I stopped playing then started over again. But the more I played, the more the music played. And the music could tolerate the wrong note. It just kept going. Like it was alive in the fiddle. That seems like the groove. I love that.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
to get back to the title of the thread,Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes.
nothing wrong with that,
I think with most musical instruments a small amount of time improving technique is also important.
learning to play from music is a technique,and [imo]can be useful.
learning to play by ear is very important too.
if you are playing the fiddle,I think it is important,to do other things apart from just playing tunes,for instance practising rolls ,practising right hand ornamentation,improving tone [practising long bows]and possibly a few slurring, bowing and crossing string exercises.
with the banjo maybe a few picking exercises,[crosspicking etc].with the harmonica, tongueing exercises
it is also important when playing tunes to practise them,for example if there is a bar[or phrase ]of a tune,that the player is having difficulty with,it needs to be practised in isolation slowly.or with the preceding bar.
so I say this:you can learn to play this music by playing tunes,but it depends how you play them,if you play through the tune without listeningto how youare playing and without rectifying errors youare just practising your mistakes.but Ithink students of an instruyment will make quicker progress,if as well as PRACTISING tunes ,they spend a certain amount of time on technique.
my concertina tutor is intended so that the student plays certain tunes that incorporate octave playing, arpeggios scales and other techniques,on occasions tunes are written in a couple of keys,so that the pupil becomes more familiar with the layout of the instrument. DickMiles
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Trying to stay somewhere near the topic, SWFL....
but seeing as you asked me, yes, Al's phrase 'being the music', and 'living inside the tune', nice words, nice concepts, and one of the main reasons for playing because it's such a great experience...
The thing is, how or why does it happen, and why can't you get it on demand ?
I recall in my teens, discussing with a university student, who was a very bright guy, that I could remember in my childhood, being completely lost in a game, playing with toys so that everything else ceased to exist. I wanted that experience back. It never happened anymore. The guy thought it might be a dangerous thing to want. I gave it a lot of thought.
The next signpost I can remember, was reading Zen Training by Sekida. That author described how he had that same experience as a child, doing calligraphy. Nothing existed but doing the brush marks. He also lost it and wanted it back.
Next signpost was The Heart of Buddhist Meditation by Nyanaponika Thera. (The style of writing is a bit laborious but the book is a gold mine). He explains it all in meticulous detail.
It is possible to get that state of losing self and being totally focussed, on demand. That author calls it absorbtion. You have to build up a certain ability or level of concentration upon one point of attention. That's a bit difficult at first, but once you learn how to do it, you can just switch into that mode.
That's what happens usually when I've been playing for a few minutes. Sometimes the mind is too restless and disparate and it's difficult or impossible to get that unity. But when it does happen it's always pleasurable. But you don't notice until you come out of it at the end and think 'that was great'.
I think it's a perfectly natural thing, the 'dangerous' idea was nonsense ( just so long as you havn't left a pan of chip fat heating on the stove, or whatever ).
What the buddhists did was to notice that experience and explore and develop it, as part of Right Meditation and Right Concentration. It gets abstracted from any particular activity, like playing, and becomes an independent pursuit or exercise.
The natural form which most people experience at some times in their lives is actually quite shallow, can be called 1st. jhana. You can keep going deeper, 2nd., 3rd. jhanas, etc. Then it starts getting *really* interesting ! But that's way off topic
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
The 'tune playing you' experience comes from concentration upon the playing, and an undivided attention. That makes it sound a bit technical, but really it's just an exhilarating temporary loss of self...when the experience is sought on it's own, not linked to a musical instrument or computer game or reading a book, then it can be called jhana, as a buddhist technical term.
"Jhana is best translated as "meditative absorption state."....You know what an "absorption state" is - it's when you get so involved in a TV show or video game or mystery novel that you are surprised when the phone rings and brings you back to reality. The Jhanas are eight altered states of consciousness which can arise during periods of strong concentration. The Jhanas are naturally occurring states of mind, but learning how to enter them at will and how to stay in them takes practice."
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Eh, we're well over 100 posts now wb, no worries about topic, I think, plus we've got a lot of wreckage above.
One pointed concentration on the tune! Is it OK to meditate with tunes? I suppose that's exactly what we're talking about here, clearing the mind of everything but one thing, in this case, the tune, eh?
But, then again, there are the times I don't want to disappear into the tune, like when the pretty waitress is bringing another pint, for example.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I agree with you, SWFL. You don't want to get too lost in the tune, because you need to be able to put some thought into what comes next... oh, and the pretty waitress too...
Actually, I think of it more as sharing the space with the tune in my head, kind of like Dr. McCoy, when he had Spock's katra within... You share the space, but you still have control (for the most part), and can gently guide the tune in different directions...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well, SWFL, The question as to whether it's okay to meditate on a tune is interesting. Whenever you play music (or do anything else, including sleep), your mind is going to be in some sort of condition or other.
The point about buddhism is that, in one sense, it's an exploration of mind, of consciousness. The insight gained permits some control. In theory, a person could become completely absorbed in the music whenever they wished, rather than just a matter of chance.
That one-pointedness of mind is an entirely natural ability, a potential that anyone has. Just that the buddhists develop and strengthen it. It was called jhana by the buddhists of southern India. In the north they called it dhyana, same word slightly different pronunciation. When buddhism went to China used the same term but with their pronunciation, ch'an. Then, when it got to Japan, they called it zen.
Zen buddhists talk about the buddha-mind. It's a way to keep the mind pure, free from confusion and negative influences. It's helpful to any aspect of human existence. You're no longer at the mercy of the ideas and automatic impulses that rule the ordinary mind. For example, when you get distracted by the pretty waitress, you notice your attention moving, which gives you time to consider whether it's wise or appropriate to wink...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Great phrase wb: "...temporary loss of self..." then the waitress shows up and BAM! Right back in my body, wishing instead that I was in the waitress'...
"Why do I bother?" Why do I bother? Where else are you going to find milennia-old explanations for that magical feeling of the whole pub levitating mid-set?
Yes, that's tough too Rev, what about "the one that goes next" or if you don't have a "one that goes next" and you need to think about that while floating around in tune-space? I suppose we can extend the power of one pointed concentration to include the entire music making experience, as far as the tune playing you ("In Soviet Russia...") and continuity of set, tune selection, etc.
Not sure where the waitress fits in, or where I fit in the...
OK, I'm going to give Innuendo-Man a nice rest and we'll see ya in a few. Somebody better do some work around this place and quit screwing around on the internet, waiting for quitting time so he can go play some tunes.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I don't know if any musicians playing ITM have considered their playing as a spiritual endeavour in the zen sense, but there doesn't seem any obvious reason why tunes can't be used as a focus of meditation.
In Japan, during the Edo period (1603 - 1867), the shakuhachi was used as a tool for meditation by Zen Buddhist priests in order to reach enlightenment, particularly the Fuke sect of Zen Buddhist monks, known as komuso (”priests of nothingness”), who used the shakuhachi as a spiritual tool.
Their songs were paced according to the players’ breathing and were considered meditation as much as music.
The zen shakuhachi flute is not like a recorder: it has no mouthpiece as such, and simply blowing in one end will not produce a sound. To play a note, your lips and mouth must become part of the instrument. And it is this oneness of instrument and player that permits so much flexibility in pitch, tone, colour, and loudness of playing.
Part of the discipline of mastering the zen flute is learning to deal with the frustrations inherent in learning to play it. That is why much of its study is dedicated to 'forging the mind-body' - developing the intuitive, spiritual side of the performer as much as the musicianship itself.
Playing the shakuhachi in this context is called suizen, or 'blowing zen'. To blow zen, one requires great breath control; yet, after years of training and practice, the shakuhachi player strives not to try to control the breath at all. Instead the breath is observed. The player watches the breath with a concentration that consumes both the observer and that which is being observed - the player 'becomes' the breathing.
I'm not a player of any of the wind instruments used in ITM, so not qualified to compare Irish flute and whistle music with the Japanese techniques.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Interestingly enough, I have a co-worker who just bought a shakuhachi and is giving it a whirl. He's a practicing Buddhist who got it for exactly that reason, and I'm the only one in the office crazy enough to talk to him for longer than five minutes. (I'm teasing, he's a good guy)
The thing is, there doesn't seem to be any tunes, per se, just meditative passages and whatnot. Very interesting.
Everything you're saying is something I've had in my head for a while, wolfbird, perhaps we should explore it further down the line, the tune as meditation...
I know I certainly feel a deep inner peace when I play. The only thing like it is when I think of my sons. I get the same deep, spiritual connections going on there, very moving.
The waitress causes a completely different movement all together.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I have Bamboo growing in my garden. the other day a fellow was up looking for bamboo to make shakuhachi . You need to have the root in the instrument. lovely sound.
Interesting WB. sounds like Kyudo As you know i spent a decade training daily in Karatedo. And crosstrained in Aikido and Judo before moving on to Jutsu forms. I dearly love the zen aspects of these disciplines. My Dojo is much in that vein. Those years have effected me deeply, part of me. . I use lessons learnt there in all aspects of my life and music.
I thoroughly enjoy reading your words on these subjects and others. Onagaishimas.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
One of the problems that occur when talking to Westerners about meditation, is that there's no words in english equivalent to the buddhist jargon. Most people have a vague idea about 'meditation', something like being in a dreamy state, or contemplating, or even prayer. But in the buddhist traditions there's a couple of thousand years worth of intense research into the subject, with tremendously detailed classifications of the techniques and experiences.
The topic came up because of Al Brown's description of pleasant unusual sense of being lost in the music. The word meditation has become common in the West since the 1960's via yoga, Transcendental Meditation, etc, as some sort of hippy thing, along with aroma therapy and homeopathy and all the complimentary medicine stuff. I'm not knocking any of that, but what the word means to me is something different.
I'm talking about zazen, as a formal practice, where you sit in lotus posture on a proper cushion. I learned it from the Soto Zen tradition, but it's much the same in other zen traditions. I can say, without any doubt or question, that it's the best thing I ever found.
For someone following that zen path seriously, everything and anything is part of the practice. It's not like what most Christians think of as religion, going to church on Sundays or for weddings, etc. In fact, it doesn't fit easily under the label religion, or the label philosophy. It's got bits of both, but it's got bits that are neither.
I've been into it for a long time, so it's not easy for me to put my head into the position of someone who knows nothing about it, but I've been thinking about how it might relate to playing music.
Obviously, it can connect to music, as above re the shakuhachi.
But that music, although it's got a unique quality, is long slow sustained notes. At least, I've never heard any fast stuff. I have three recordings of shakuhachi, although I don't listen to them very frequently.
I suppose the pace, and the sorrowfulness, is very roughly approximate to slow airs. Not much like say, Matt Malloy. I sometimes think Micho Russell sounds kinda zen, because his playing seems so gentle and sensitive and peaceful, beautifully simple and unaffected.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, I know jig. It's Jeremy's anti-vulgarity filter.
Thing is, I see it rather differently. In (most ?) martial arts, meditation is a smallish part, whilst the major concern is with fitness, training, practising moves, etc.
I'm familiar with mushin, translated as 'no mind', in Japanese and Chinese traditions. It's viewed as a good state of consciousness from which to fight.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
You're right wolfbird. Upon further review, I find the mental state (in lieu of misuse of the term 'meditation') that comes from playing the music most similar to trance. It's vastly more shamanistic than the Eastern philosophies as it's goal and function is to induce dance. Movement, music, and dance have all been used throughout the history of modern man across many cultures to induce trances in shamans, leading to spiritual insights and contact with the spirit world. Hence we have fairies teaching pipers tunes, and so on.
That mythology is a direct remnant of indigenous shamanistic cultural traditions, filtered through the times as they were; stories of pipers being lured into the fairy realm (spirit world of the shaman) by eager, dancing fairies (spirits) while they were playing (inducing a self-trance, thus seeing the spirits and the spirit world) and being taught tunes by the fairies. (receiving spiritual insight from the experience)
Of course, it could also be just drunken piper stories, but man's oldest religion and spirituality is shamanism, and it was shared by all cultures. [shrug]
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
oh yeah. I never encountered it befor sh*toryu, ah I get it funny
Ah, thats because you are an outsider looking in. like most people you see the surface but fail to see the depths. like a mountain lake, the only way to experiance the depths is to jump on in.
And fair enough, its quite possible to paddle about on the surface thinking that's all there is. many do. but to explore the depths requires determination, courage and a certain dis-attachment to the material plane we call life. Only by dying can you truly live....
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, SWFL, it's an interesting distinction to make. There's obviously a lot of overlap between stuff shamans and similar folks have done for millennia, and zen meditation, and all kinds of other practices, like mediums and mystics and yogis and seers and acid heads, because they're all human and share the same brain structure and biology.
And there's wide differences between branches of buddhism too. Zen is really a child of buddhism and taoism. But within zen itself, there's lots of sects and sub-divisions. There's an enormous choice available !
The way I like to look at it is, that there are multiple maps of the same territory, some maps are very crude and simple, some incredibly sophisticated and complex. If you want to find your way around, best choose a good map and stick with it. Other maps may be just as good, but the names and symbols are all different so means starting afresh, like learning a foreign language. A woman I know is into Dzogchen. There's a lot of similarities to Jap zen buddhism, but the language and approach is different.
The way I see it, because 'altered states' are natural and intrinsic to everyone's mind, millions of people have stumbled upon them at various times. So, stories of fairies can be one way of explaining. All cultures have such stories. But mostly people don't investigate those altered states in a systematic - one could almost say, scientific - and orderly way. That's what makes the buddhism of Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese, and others special. The maps are detailed and reliable, so you don't get lost, the way people do taking hallucinogens and dancing and so on.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
No, SWFL, I havn't read that one, but read lots on shamanism.
No offence, but G. Hancock is a bit over the top for me. There's what I call the Von Daniken school of authors, a market flooded with books popularizing bizarre and mind boggling stuff.
It's very difficult to draw a line, particularly if you have someone you like and respect who 'believes' and you don't yourself. I'm very interested in stone circles and megaliths. In that area, there are loads of people whom I consider, well, what's a kind word ? misguided ?
I've got one foot in science. I want evidence that justifies a conclusion. I don't believe, for example, that crop circles are constructed by aliens from outer space.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
On the same theme, I think it was Will CPT the other day, said he rejected religion partly because of untestable childish myths, etc.
Well, I'm quite close to that position, in some respects. My father was a scientist, I learned basic scientific outlook. I remember finding a book in a library with beautiful paintings of chakras. I had a sense of outrage. How can anybody believe that nonsense and sell books about it ?
That was because there was no place that chakras could be accommodated in my belief system. The idea clashed with my paradigm of reality.
But, aha ! A few years later, after much meditation, psychedelics, etc, I realized my mistake. Chakras are internal. You have to close your eyes and go deep into inner consciousness to find chakras. Science doesn't even acknowledge that possibilty, let alone know anything about it. But buddhism does, hindu yoga does....
So, I have to bear that lesson in mind when I evaluate peculiar ideas. I'm sceptical about everything, but also open minded about everything. I like to check it out.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
So wolfbird we have more in common than I would've guessed from how things went on that previous thread.
I like the scientific method, but acknowledge that empiricism has its limits--we know (based on the scientific method) that we can't always trust our own senses, or our mind's circuitry. So there's a leap of faith in science, too.
I've also seen fairly compelling evidence of chi and chakras, though I remain unconvinced.
Less a skeptic than just awaiting more solid support for what or what not to believe....
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, Will CPT, it took me years and years how to figure out an explanation for the conflicting views of reality, and the meaning of life, that different people have.
I mean, sincere, good people (not con men and liars) had/ have totally incompatible understandings of what the world is and what it's like and why we are here, so much so, that it's almost impossible even to discuss, because the languages and concepts are so different....
But I got there in the end (at least, to my own satisfaction).
I don't think we'd disagree much about science and it's methodology and limitations. My misgivings and dislikes of science are mostly to do with it's commercialisation and way discoveries are misused.
If we look at the religions, people normally think first of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Fewer people in the West know anything about Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. And then there's zillions of minor religions and beliefs.
There's different ways to approach knowledge. The scientific way is empirical measurement, testable falsifiable theory, etc.
But none of us have ever seen an H2O molecule. We have to accept what the scientists say, that they are decent people working in good faith. We assume, if we really wanted, we could force them to prove and demonstrate that water really is H2O.
Well, in buddhism, likewise. The Buddha said, not to believe anything just because he said it. He said check it out for yourself. Most people are happy to take the Buddha's word. But I myself was sceptical. I tried loads of other things that turned out to be crap, or fanciful nonsense.
I read all the Taoist, Hindu, Buddhist meditation manuals. I had a sceptical open mind. I worked very hard at it. It is hard work, a lot like learning to master a musical instrument. And I found what I was looking for.
The thing is, you have to understand, a lot of the texts are ancient, written in archaic, poetic language, maybe even in languages that aren't used any more. The same sort of problem as ancient biblical scrolls. You can't just reject something because it isn't immediately clear to modern Western logic.
Once you get the idea about what they're talking about, things start to fit together. It's different from scientific knowledge but no less valid. If you go to a strange city, ask for directions to the bus station, follow the advice and arrive where you wanted to get, well, that's practical, useful truth. You don't need to find fancy proof or have peer group review to validate and verify your methodology. It works in practice. You catch the bus.
It's like that with those jhanas. If you follow the instructions exactly, and persist, you get what those old guys centuries ago said you'd get. It's an exploration of inner space. Most people, especially most scientists with busy highly trained intellects don't understand how it can be possible. It doesn't figure in the Western psychological model. It's not mentioned in the school text books, so it can't exist.
The point is, not so much what to believe or not, but that, if you have your own personal direct experience, it doesn't matter what you've been told is correct or true. You just know, because you did it.
First time you might think, 'wow, that was weird', and can't really comprehend what happened. But if you find it again and again it becomes familiar, and you keep going further.
I like the jhana map (from Theravada Buddhism) but other schools of buddhism have different ways of mapping the same territory. Like, some say you go through those stages. Some explain the same sort of thing differently.
What I conclude from my own experience, is the fundamental model of reality that I was taught by the culture I grew up in, is incorrect. I mean that in a scientific sense. The common view does not correspond with the truth, rather like Galileo saying that, although it looks to everyone as if the Sun is going around the Earth (common sense, yeah ? how could anybody deny what we all observe) the truth is that the Earth goes around the Sun.
BTW, I don't think chi and chakras are very important. There's interesting things about them. Same goes for jig's link to mushin and martial arts. Some people pursue the stuff to be good at combat, some people to try and be healthy and live a long time, and other reasons. I think those reasons are inferior. I mean, if you want to be good at self-defence buy a gun, and take vitamins to be healthy. My reason, my motivation, is wanting to understand insofar as it's possible what the f**k this 'thing' is that I'm finding all around me, that people call the world or the Universe...it's a philosophical quest. I just felt, it's got no damn right to create me and then just leave me baffled and confused !
The Buddha, and many Taoist and Hindu and Zen masters suggest that there are ways to find a satisfactory answer by a different route from Western philosophical logic and scientific discoveries. I think they were right. In fact, I know they were right.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I'm reminded of the parable about the mystic who spent his entire life by a river meditating and plumbing his depths and becoming enlightened, gradually testing the water, ever so slowly learning to walk on water, and finally, one day, after many years of attempts and failure, he was able to walk across the river, atop the water.
When, during all that time, with no effort on the mystic's part, a boatman would've taken him across for a single small coin....
I come at all this from the simple perspective of thinking, observing, feeling (and whatever other abilities I discover in myself) for myself, not taking anyone else's word for anything. (Obviously, most of the time I let most mundane things slide--like whether the jar with the peanut butter label really is peanut butter or the guy with the little tin wings on his lapels at the front of the plane really is a pilot, unless reasons pop up for me to think otherwise.) But the big questions (and some not so big one) are too important to blindly trust to any other assemblage of carbon atoms.
I'm also reminded of a bumper sticker I saw the other day: "Conscious--that confusing state of mind betweeb naps."
Reverend should do a tee-shirt: "Consciousness--that confusing, unproductive, thirsty time between sessions."
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
On the original point, a classical music teacher friend of mine said that the point of studies was to provide pieces of music to practice techique on, but where it didn't matter that you were completely sick of the piece by the time you'd learnt to play it.
A real pity if you get sick of a very good piece of music through overplaying and excessive concentration on the technical problems it contains - therefore be wary of which tunes you choose to learn your techique on...
Maybe this is the cause of the bad reputation of certain tunes out there?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I'm familiar with the story of the mystic and the boatman, Will CPT.
Thing is, anybody could pay for a ferry. It's all thoroughly understood and explicable. But surely, any open minded scientist or philosopher who sees someone walking on the water would be curious because it's an event that defies the orthodox rules of physics. It would show that there must be something missing or mistaken in the theories.
But there's another interesting point in there, about motivation. I think motive makes a difference. If the mystic devoted his life because he wanted to do bizarre tricks, he wouldn't be enlightened in my understanding of the word.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Oh wolfbird, Hancock gets an awful rep in the mass media, yet he does not espouse aliens making crop circles, or any other nonsense they spread about him, no sir. Please don't accept that mass media slandering.
His work Supernatural is a brilliant exploration of man's earliest spirituality and the similarities shared between all mystical and spiritual experiences. He reports, the reader decides, no matter what the BBC says.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well, SWFL, I have not read that book - not sure if I've read any Hancock books actually, but my memory is unreliable - and I didn't intend to suggest *he* was promoting 'aliens make crop circles', just that he gets lumped together with the huge number of books in that area..e.g. Dan Brown
Where do you draw the line yourself, SWFL ? How do you decide ? I mean, it was hard enough years ago, when there were only books. With the internet it's even more difficult to know what's credible when there's so much crazy stuff being peddled.
Someone wrote a book about this area claiming a Dyfed Triangle similar to Bermuda Triangle. I've read about people coming to the area and claiming it's common to see Earthlights (whatever they are ?) flashing at night. I see them myself often.
Thing is they have nothing to do with UFOs or unknown physics, as claimed. The answer is easy and obvious. There's lots of lighthouses for shipping along the coast, and the flashes get reflected off low cloud.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
That's a good question. I try to remain brutally skeptical, and very strict with myself, while at the same time remaining wide open. Well, now I'm drifting into your Zen area of expertise with cryptic and conflicting notions like that, eh?
I don't know if there are any easy guidelines. I try to defy deciding, I guess. I'd love to imagine there was a way to look at everything scientifically and perform a reductio ad absurdum on everything as well, but there simply isn't. Some things need to be taken with faith, and those things I can usually verify for myself, like what is best in life? Friends, family, music, so these good things are what's important, I can touch them, feel them, they are real and I understand why they are good and beneficial. This intellectual processing of emotional subjects, for me, actually allows me to derive spiritual satisfaction from them. It satisfies my intellect and I don't feel like I'm cheating myself.
With Hancock he does that very well. He refuses to make leaps the tin-foil hat crowd would, because he's always using a strict scientific reporting process, ultimately, he's one of the last impartial investigative journalists who dares to explore wild notions while using a scientific method.
However, it's truly bizarre to think about how all cultures of mankind shared that shamanistic spirituality, all over the world, and how our modern religions and spiritual systems contain all those notions; there is another world that we can not perceive, we each can reach it inside ourselves via spiritual practice, “The kingdom of God is within you”, etc and so on.
I don't know what it means, to be honest, however I refuse to decide on anything before I'm intellectually satisfied with my decision. Does that make any sense?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Sure, SWFL, it makes sense. I used to take the position (which may also be Hancock's, I don't know) that Mircea Eliade wrote about, that there are universal human experiences, first perceived by shamans - being the spiritual experts in hunter-gatherer soceities, and then, as soceities grew larger and developed into civilizations, the same experiences became the basis of the full- blown developed religions. Seems a reasonable hypothesis at least. He was a serious, scholarly man and gathered masses of evidence.Although I have read some quite persuasive critiques of Eliade.
But then I hit post-modern philosophy, logocentrism, de-constructionism, all that stuff. All we are doing is telling ourselves stories (of varying qualities). That philosophical approach can demolish most belief systems. But funnily enough, it can't touch zen.
If you read the teachings of the zen masters, they're the very opposite of logocentric. They say abandon all thought if you want to progress. That's why, IMO, zen is unique. It's a belief system which has, as it's purpose, the demolition of belief systems, including, ultimately, it's own. That is, it teaches direct insight into the nature of reality, using a highly sophisticated practical methodology developed by thousands and thousands of contributors over the last two or three millennia.
To paraphrase, very briefly, your position for requiring intellectual satisfaction - zen says you can't find ultimate truth by intellectual means, it requires a different approach.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
The Golden Bough is another good read on the beginnings and development of belief systems.
Crackpot (no, not you, Ian ) , that's a fair point you make. Maybe it's just me, but in 30 years of playing this music, I've never gotten tired of a single tune yet. And the tunes I learned much of my technique on are still some of my favorites, with a deeper understanding and sentimental connection for me.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well, seeing as you ask, Will CPT, it's an excellent example of the problem, as SWFL put it so neatly above. How does one decide ?
If the consensus amongst the specialists who devote their careers to studying a subject is that James Frazer is not acceptable, how does one estimate the book ?
Or, to make it slightly more emotive, look at the clash between Charles Darwin and those who took a literal interpretation of Genesis in the 19th. C.
Do you believe A, or do you believe B ? My position is, that I investigated buddhism, etc, as an open-minded sceptic, and found I could verify the claims I read about, by direct personal experience. That's good enough for me. I trust my own judgement, regardless of what others may believe.
It's a bit like the controversy over acupuncture in the 1960s. Western science was almost unanimous in denouncing acupuncture as garbage, in the same category they put astrology and numerology. They weren't even interested in looking at the evidence. It didn't fit the orthodox medical paradigm, so they based their judgement on prejudice.
And then someone went to China and observed anaesthesis provided by acupuncture during major surgery.
My personal position re the stuff I believe is similar to that, like having observed it first hand.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Agreed. It's also often a matter of being able to distinguish the baby from the proverbial bathwater. I haven't found a book yet (certainly not Frazer's) that I competely agreed with. But that doesn't negate the valid and valuable information a given book does contain.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
It's tough, isn't it Will CPT. A lot of the time, we are not much bothered about controversial debates between A and B over some esoteric subject. For example, ley lines. I've met many people with total faith in the existence of ley lines. It is a kind of religion for them. I don't even like to attack their views, because if it's harmless and keeps them happy, why not ?
But if they ask my position, I have to explain I can't accept or believe. The evidence is illusory. You draw *any* straight line on a map (especially for a densely populated place like UK, maybe different in US or Australia) and it's impossible *not* to connect significant archaeological sites.
But sometimes it can be incredibly hard, if it's a matter of life or death, even one's own. I've been in that position. Do I believe this guy or that guy ?
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Of course, anyone who tries to remain rational and reasonable is led to admit, in the end, that certainty is elusive and ephemeral at best. Whereas zealots of any stripe are champions of certainty--a highly seductive quality. And a misapprehension is more dangerous to the degree of truth it contains.
Live precariously--anything else is just a pretense.
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Ha,ha, yes, Will CPT, well, we can agree on that last bit, "live precariously"...I learned that one the hard way alright
It was amazing to discover that I could let go and stop trying 'to get' and found whatever I needed was already here, or turned up just when It was wanted. I live more precariously than anyone else I know, it's a great way to be
Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
A couple of recent threads by Shylock and Jussa Nutter Eejit got me to thinking about how I indulge my passion for this music in an otherwise busy life. And my answer came down to "play the tunes."
And I heard a whisper: "But how do you become the musician you can be by just playing the tunes? What about intonation, tone production, all the technical skills?"
Maybe it'll help Shylock, JNE (and his young son), and others if we all toss in our ideas about how we've learned to play this music well and to grow our abilities by...playing the music.
Here's a start, off the top of my head (in part gleaned from my own experience, in part from years of reading others' posts here). This may sound aimed at less experienced players, but even after 30 years, these strategies endlessly crop up in my playing.
1. Learn just a few tunes really well. Better to know a few tunes well than a lot of tunes half-baked.
2. Use your ears. Listen, listen, listen. To other players whose playing you admire. And to yourself.
3. Pay attention to the details. As you play a tune, notice how it feels when the tone is strong and clear, when the timing and rhythm are grooving, when the intonation is "on." Ingrain that feel into your brain and bones. Lather, rinse, repeat. The tunes are your etudes, they contain everything you need to learn in order to play them. Scale runs, arpeggios, the gamut of intervals, timing and rhythm idioms, common motifs, etc. It's all there.
4. Play slow to play well. Don't gloss over things by playing too fast for comfort or sloppily. If a phrase is giving you trouble, first see #5 below, then suss out that phrase. Play it s---l---o---w---l---y a few times. Sound every note with clarity and accuracy. Then put it back in the tune.
5. Relax. R-E-L-A-X. Aim to play effortlessly. Music is effortlessness, not perfection or speed or virituosity.
6. *Play* the music. Have fun with it, explore it (and yourself). Respect the tradition, but don't take yourself too seriously. Play with a sense of humour, generosity, compassion.
7. Persevere, but be patient with yourself. Some things take time. Enjoy the journey and the destination will take care of itself.
So what else is out there?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Good post... this is pretty much how I teach myself. Everything comes together on its own if you just play.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
well said. thanks for that. that is how i fell
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by CDNMoose
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
No no no no no ... you must labour and toil for a quarter of a century.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by ...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL, c'mon Michael. You've given some good tips in the past that are worth repeating here, so we can point people to one thread with all the good stuff in one place. Dish up.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
A specific example just popped into my mind.
Even though I rarely use vibrato in this music, it's a nice technique to have at hand. I use it now and then when playing with fluters and whistler players who use finger vibrato on slow airs or sometimes on the last note of a tune.
But the main benefit I got from learning vibrato on fiddle was that it freed up my left hand--you can't properly do vibrato if your thumb is clamped down on the neck.
So a classical teacher once explained the basic motion and concept, and then I went off and played some (mostly non Irish) tunes that vibrato seemed to fit into--Ashokan Farewell, Tennessee Waltz, etc. And I wiggled my fingers when I heard vibrato in my head. Each day, I snuck these tunes into my playing, and tried to get my fingers to produce the sound in my head. After a week or so, I could get an ugly cousin of vibrato in the appropriate bits of a tune. But if I tried to just do vibrato on its own, outside a tune, nothing worked. Two weeks in and the vibrato was really coming along--relaxed and even--in certain tunes. It took months more to get consistent and comfortable with it, but since then (many years ago) it's never gone away, no matter how little I use it.
The same process has worked for me with cuts, rolls, triplets--all the various articulations we use to play this music. It's fun because you can (if you choose) consciously hone these skills even while cranking through tunes at a session. It's not "practice" or even directed playing so much as simply attentive playing. And ever mindful of the crack.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Sorry Will. OK then ...
The music IS the tunes.
I think I'd be struggling to come up with anything more profound than that.
(but please don't be fooled into thinking that you can learn the tunes from the pitiful postings on this website. The only way to learn the tunes is to listen to them. Listening is more important than playing. If you want to learn to play the tunes, by far the most important thing is to learn to listen. No amount of working on technique, scales, bowing, blowing etc will help you learn tunes. Out of all the advice you may get from different people, out of all the conflicting trifles, out of all the crazy top tips, the only important thing is to learn to listen. And that includes listening to yourself)
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by ...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Play with as many different players as possible. This will open you up to all different kind sof styles (whether good or bad). At the very least it will help you find out how ya want to sound and maybe, just maybe ya might even have a little bit of fun along the way. Drinking helps too. Lots of drinking.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by The Lonesome Bowman
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I agree with everything you listed, Will. I'd add some things from my experience:
1. Play for dancers and dance to the music if you can. Not as a requirement (i.e., if you don't play for dancers, you will never play the music properly), but as a way to add a dimension to your playing. It is dance music, after all. Playing for dancers and dancing sets from Kerry and Cork helped me learn a lot about the music, its rhythm, tempo, and dynamics. I have also been able to meet lots of people I might not have met if I weren't at a dance either playing or dancing. And its really fun and social.
2. You learn quickly, but I don't think it is possible to start out playing as fast as you want. So, I echo "be patient and relax." Many of the beginners I have played with over the years want to play tunes as fast as (fill in the blank of fiddle player(s)) and are disppointed that it doesn't happen as fast as they want. Takes time.
3. At the same time, though, try to play the music the way you hear it. This is similar to what Will says about pay attention to the details. Listen closely to the tune you are learning, then listen closely to yourself playing it. Get the details into your playing.
4. Play with others. If you are just beginning, find another or others who are just beginning. If there is a session near you and you can play some tunes, go and play them. And listen to how others play the tunes. I think this was the most important part of my own learning. I was lucky to be in a place where people playing this music when I first started and the musicians were always generous with their time. I learned a lot from playing with them as well as talking with them.
Good post Will. I look forward to more responses.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by John Culhane
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, it is turning out to be a good post Will. (apart from my Jig goading, sorry). It's a good idea to have a post that we can link to when ever someone asks one of the generic questions of how do you learn to play.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by ...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
In order to improve my playing, I borrow my wife's cheap tape recorder so I can record myself and then I play it back while I listen to myself playing. I have learned that listening to myself is interesting, instructive, and sometimes painful.
Since we all have two ears and one mouth, I have always assumed that we are supposed to do twice as much listening as talking.
Listening to other musicians to hear how they might play the same tunes you like to play is indeed very important.
Relaxing and learning to enjoy playing this music is also important.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Good stuff, everyone. The reminders about playing for dancers (and stepping onto the dance floor yourself) and playing with others, and always listening are all spot on.
I can imagine a parallel thread (or just a strand within this one) all about how to really listen to this music. Letting it wash over you, but also diving deep into it so it fills your ears. The tone and dirt of it, the pulse like your own pulse when you hold your hands over your ears, the timing--spaces between notes and beats, all the millions of nuanced articulations. So much to hear, to absorb.
I wonder if it helps people to name the bits--timbre, timing, melody, contour, etc., so they can be more attentive to them? Or if that just gets in the way? Horses for courses, I suppose.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Oh sure, I go to the Irish American Club meeting to fiddle for the local step dance school, and everybody takes all the good answers already, I see how it is. Ah well, it was a pot luck at least, mmm...
Speaking of which, news flash! It's dance music! Shake yer booty! Best thing I've ever done to understand the music was to play in a ceili band and now play for a troupe of step dancers. Session speed is somewhere in between the two. The girls with the curls like it slow so they can do their complex steps and kicks, while the old folks at the VFW like it SUPER fast so they can shuffle and spin.
You're learning a language, when you're learning 'the music'. Like learning a language, immersing your ears in it is the only way to learn how to speak it fluently. You love the music? You want to play the music? I would expect you're listening to the music, you know, for fun? A lot? I mean, I no longer listen to the iPod while I sleep, so that's good, but there were a few years there...
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Hi Will and all,
First I want to thank everyone again for helping me a month or so ago. I'm the one with the tedonnitis in my left hand. I was able to avoid the doc. I used a carpal tunnel brace 24/7 taking it off only to practice fiddle. I focused on vibrato, bowing and relaxing every muscle while I played some very basic tunes very slowly. I limited my time to 1/2 hour. Heat, ibuprofen and all the above solved my issue. After 2 weeks I was 80% better. Brace came off and I started practicing all my tunes again, very slowly with light fingers and relaxed hand. Was still tender for a while but now there are no issues. I am back to playing 1 to 2 hous daily. The most difficult thing is not playing fast as this tenses me up and gets me to start to strangling my poor fiddle neck again.
After 4 1/2 months of playing fiddle everything is improving nicely. Thank you all. Your advice here is invaluable to a beginner like myself. I read most posts.
As to this post, very excellent advice. For me and my "issues" as a novice I would re-order them a little putting them in order of importance as 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 6, 7.
'Relax' is critical to me as I have a tendency to tense up because I am trying so hard to be perfect. Plus having a music background felt I should be advancing faster and am probably trying too hard. Fiddle by far the most difficult instrument I have ever picked up, (for me anyway) with so many technical issues to get right in order to make it sound good. God I love to pick it up everyday and just play what I can, as well as I can. I learn something new about either the fiddle or myself everyday. Can't seem to get enough. (I think my wife is getting a little jealous about my relationship with my fiddle)
That reminds me. I just discovered this past weekend that my shoulder rest was adjusted incorrectly(I think) for me. Maybe you can shed some light here ;>)! It was set up(my fault) with the top shoulder set low and bottom chest part up high causing the fiddle to lay more flat or parallel to the floor. By this I mean the from side to side not shoulder to hand. I know to keep the fiddle up and not pointing at the floor. This flatter angle forced me to strain my left hand further around to reach all the strings on top also contributing to my tendonitis I believe.
I just realized that if I raised the to shoulder part of the rest and lower the chest portion, the fiddle(fingerboard) angles downward(@45 deg.) toward my bowing hand and allows my left hand fingers easier access to all the strings. Had to re-adjust my bowing angle a little bit but a very quick easy adjustment. I hope this is ok to do and that I'm not going to cause a problem somewhere else.
Anway, all the advice on this post for beginners is excellent, keep up the great work and keep us beginners in mind, greatly appreciated.
Future fiddle player . . . hopefully,
Pete
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Pete Trikes
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Good on you, Pete. Yep, sounds like you have the shoulder rest sorted properly now. You're on your way.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Right on Pete. I suffer a little bit from that as well, and I remember your post. Don't feel badly, I got a shoulder rest for the first time in my life (an traumatic signpost of age I tell ya) and had the thing backwards like you're talking about as well. My forearm didn't waste any time telling me I was an idiot, though, I was listening.
I was trained classically as a child, and it's natural to press harder on the strings because you have to. Now that I'm adult I don't have to, but it's a daily battle not to when I begin to concentrate, or exert a lot of effort, there's the problem, and it ties in with the effortlessness thing. Vibrato (though not much needed unless you plan on annoying purists) is useful in forcing you to relax, like Will said above: 'thumb clamped on fiddle' 'free up left hand'.
OK, I'm repeating, gonna shut up, peace.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I've found that the worst thing you can possibly do is to listen to the music. Never ever listen to sessions or CDs - they'll just confuse you. The people playing in sessions and on CDs can't even play the tunes in the proper rhythm. They play some quavers longer than others, and it's not meant to be like that and I'll prove it. Take a look at the sheetmusic for any reel or jig. Each of the fast notes is the same length, right? It says so on the page, and you can't argue with that! Now I've done a lot of practice, I can play all these notes smoothly and evenly, each of a consistent length (I know that because I recorded myself and then slowed it down using computer software and actually looked at the waveform I'd produced). I can play all the notes exactly the same length just like the midi files. That just comes with practice. You'll get there someday if you work hard it like I have.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Will's thread getting a bit too touchy-feely for you there, Dow, ya troublemaker?
A couple of things that I'd like to add.
Have FUN while you're learning, and take pride in the sense of personal accomplishment. I played trumpet as a kid, but practicing was as bad as homework - rigorous, structured, boring, or whatever. So I gave up music for years, and am constantly amazed at how much fun I have playing it now - and I look forward to practicing! If you're lucky, you'll be surrounded by other players that are constantly encouraging you. You may not feel like you're making fast enough progress, but relax, be patient, and have fun. If it isn't fun, why would you do it? It's not likely to replace your "day job", after all...
Don't wait until you're "ready" to start playing with other people. You'll likely never feel "ready", and the only way to get good at playing with other people is to do it. If you have a local session, go to it, even if it's just to listen for a while. If you take an instrument to a session, and only get to play one tune all night, you're still better off for having been there, listening all night.
Don't try to tell yourself that you "can't learn by ear", that's a copout. We have all learned by ear all of our lives. (Can you sing "Happy Birthday"? Did you ever read the music for it? Do you sing along to songs on the radio?) Yes, learning by ear is a skill that can (and should) be developed and practiced. But we ALL learn by ear, you learned how to speak by ear, after all...
Don't worry about bogging yourself down with music theory at the outset. It can be handy to know some of that stuff, but most of this music wasn't composed with the theory in mind, and doesn't necessarily fit cleanly into it. As you learn more music, the theory will become more apparent to you, so if you don't know the difference between a D major scale, and a D mixolydian scale, don't worry about it when you're first starting. It's not going to stop you from learning tunes in D and Dmix...
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Once you're at the stage when you're actually playing the tunes at a reasonable pace, ie not slowly as when you're learning the tune.......
KEEP THE RHYTHM.
I repeat,
Keep the Rhythm.
Keep it driving.
This music is, mostly, or is derived from, Dance Music.
And I'd go as far as to say KEEP THE RHYTHM at the expense of a few ornaments if you have to decide one or the other.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
When you're listening to tunes, tap your foot. When you pick your instrument to try out the tune, tap your foot and aim to pick out the main phrases, the important notes - then when you've got the basic structure - pay attention to the bits in between, if you haven't already figured them out. That's part of my basic approach.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
If you are coming to this music new, especially if you have come from a different music idiom, do not learn tunes from sheet music.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by ...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Play a little every day. Even if you have only a spare 5 min. here and there, play those 5 minutes. You loose momentum if you haven't had the instrument in your hands for a few days.
Dow, I would love to hear your midi perfect tune playing, please share!
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Dow's post reminds me of my favorite bio:
1) Play loudly and continuously.
2) Start a set of tunes the instant the regulars finish playing.
3) Make sure your tunes are unusual enough to impress.
4) Tap your foot against the chair of the musician in front of you.
5) If you get a chance (let's say, for example someone stands up to pass a cigarette across the table), shuffle the chair of the person in front of you over to the side little by little to make room for yourself within the central group, where you are much more likely to be noticed.
http://www.thesession.org/members/display/707
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
That is classic
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by sneetch
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I did learn the tunes from the dots (which I am currently trying to substitute to listening whenever its possible) and what always helped me was to remind me that these were not set in stone, only a starting point from where i would readjust the tune to the local session version and to the instruments sound.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by TMB
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
>>4) Tap your foot against the chair of the musician in front of you.
WTF's s/he doing in front of you anyway?
I was under the impression that you open up the circle so that everyone is included. If someone is parked right in front of you that's feckin bad manners and they deserve to get their chair tapped, at the very least.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
If you are coming to this music new, especially if you have come from a different music idiom, do not learn tunes from sheet music.
what a didactic ,bigoted, narrow minded statement.
there is nothing wrong with learning tunes from music,providing you have recordings of the tune,[that youlisten to] to give you ideas of the lilt .phrasing. etc. Dick Miles
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
You have to be able to pick up the music with your ear. This is a pre-requisite. Why? because the dots do not contain anywhere near enough information. If you have a recording and the dots, the only way to tell if what pitiful information that is in the dots matches what is in the recording is if you have a good enough ear. If you do have a good enough ear, you don't need the dots. If you don't have a good enough ear, practise until you do.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by ...
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Spot on, Michael.
I like the range of suggestions that keep coming. Newcomers to this music ought to find this all very helpful.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
The dots are simply a means to an end. What end? To learn how to play the tune you are hearing from whichever source you use, recording, a friend, a session, etc. Any tools used (dots, etc.) should be used towards that goal of being able to play properly what you are hearing, what is in your ears and head already.
The big danger is using dots without anything in your ears! There is no sight reading in Irish Traditional music.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
PadraigoKeefe,JamesMorrison,SeamusCreagh,PaddyJones, teach/ taught their pupils with sheet music.
GeorgeWhelan, James Morrison taught the tunes with specific bowing instructions.
Micheal Gill knows better.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with using dots,while attempting to pick up a tune from a recording,it is rather like learning to ride a bike with stabilisers.,it is a tool[a fallback when the player is unsure] that can be used in developing and improving the use of the ear.
being able to read music, also gives a person the opportunity,.to play tunes that may not be available[or easily accessible on a recording]
being able to pick up tunes by ear ,and also being able to read music are both useful skills.
presumably Micheal Gill also disapproves of people using abc type music in conjunction with listening.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Amazing how threads about learning usually degenerate into arguments about learning from the dots, but it's an important topic. Llig's point is well taken that someone who is a beginner, especially one who already plays a different style of music, should learn by listening. Because they are otherwise doomed to playing Irish very poorly.
I consider the dots to be simply a memory aid, the same way that you might use 3x5 cards with notes for giving a speech. Everybody would be able to tell if you were reading directly from the notes while you were talking, because it wouldn't sound as natural or fluid. (But don't take that analogy too far - You don't want the dots in front of you when you're playing, even if it's as a memory aid. You need to learn to internalize the shape of the tune, and nurture your ability to listen, remember, and play the tunes by ear)
I help run a weekly tune learning session. We do not allow sheet music to appear during that session (other than for the occasional reminder of how a tune starts, maybe). I will occasionally send someone an ABC file of the particular setting of a tune that I taught, but much more often, I'll just record it and send it as an mp3. We found that when we put ABC and recordings on our website, people stopped coming to the session to learn and play tunes, and therefore were missing out on the two most important parts, learning by ear, and playing with other people!
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Dick, I am not in that much disagreement with you, when you talk about using the dots in *conjunction* with listening - as either a memory aid, or as a reference for when you're not good enough at listening yet to pick up a certain note or phrase.
But I think Llig's suggestion is an important one. Don't learn tunes from the dots, learn them from listening. Use the dots as a tool if you must, but not as a *source*.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
In the old days, some teachers used music notation as a memory aid for their students. Portable recording devices weren't available back then, so this was the only back up to aural memory. Many other teachers did not use music notation, preferring to teach by ear.
)
Today, with tape recorders, minidisks, and mp3 recorders, it's really easy for a teacher to lay down a tune or a whole lesson for the student. I encourage all my students to bring a recording device to every lesson, and to regularly use it at home. Playing along to a recording of me playing the tune at an easy pace is a thousand times more instructive than playing from ink on the page. This option wasn't readily available to O'Keefe, Morrison, and the other early teachers.
As Michael clearly said, ***if you're NEW*** to this music, weaning yourself from sheet music and immersing yourself in the *sound* of it is crucial and will lead to greater progress. Sadly, lots of musicians who come from other genres (especially classical) assume they can pick up this music from the dots, and they favor sight reading over aural immersion. They usually end up sounding like Dow in his midi duet. (
Once you really understand what this music is all about, yes, it's possible to pick up tunes from the dots. But even then, it's a distant second best to just using your ears.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Rev, I could live with the disagreements if people would stick to disagreeing over content instead of taking every opportunity to bash the person behind the content.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
What concise accurate description: '' what a didactic ,bigoted, narrow minded statement.''
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who feels that to be the case.
Besides, If you don't particularly wish to conform to a preconceived concept of what ITM 'should' sound like then you can learn tunes from the dots and play them as you choose. It may not sound like our preconceived ideas of what ITM 'should' sound like, but so what? Who are you playing your music for? who's life are you living?
''You have to be able to pick up the music with your ear. This is a pre-requisite''
If you wish to follow the law of LLig. yes. If you want to enjoy your self and play music with your friends and couldn't care less if it conforms to a narrow minded, bigoted , concept of what ITM 'should' sound like then you dont. Here in Co Clare, some teachers of ITM use dots. That,s Clare born and bred. The dots are a tool. No more and no less.
''There is no sight reading in Irish Traditional music'' Ahh says who? Llig? or who is your authority you 're quoting to make such an unqualified statement?
Its a bit like L|azyhound saying there is no place in ITM for playing over the fingerboard... Tell that to Paddy Canny...
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Thanks for the great points here guys. As a fairly new player, I am always interested in the learning process-- how to play my instrument, how to learn new tunes, how to play the tunes better, etc. Thanks for the lesson! Pat
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by PatrickJWK
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
What were you just saying, Will?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
If you don't have a preconceived notion of what ITM should sound like, you're going to play it wrong. Period. I'm not going to stop you from playing wrong (because maybe you play it solely for your own selfish reasons), but I'm not going to want you ruining the day for all of us who work on playing it right.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
the problem with many teachers who teach purely by ear,is that they produce replicas of their own style,even down to the ornamentation.
whereas, what they should be doing is exposing the pupil to different styles,for example a good fiddle teacher should be able to expose their pupil .to say Sligo style or clare style or whatever.
if apupil buys Morrisons book,the Cranitch book and the Mcnevin book they are going to be aware of three different styles,that in my opinion is better than turning into aclone of your teacher.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
What styles are they getting out of the books? (Are there accompanying CDs, maybe?) They may get some different settings of stuff, but setting is only a small part of "style". How do you notate the Clare style vs. the Sligo style?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
At least future readers will be able to easily distinguish the sensible, helpful posts from the others--on tone alone.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
So dickens, each of those books focuses on its own approach to the music. You have to buy all three to get three different "styles."
So why not go to three different teachers (especially over a span of several years)?
Nearly every fiddler I've ever learned from has shown a range of styles and approaches for this music. The good players and teachers are acutley aware of the variety out there. It's not at all unusual for a teacher to show how Michael Coleman did it, how Paddy Killoran did it, how Bobby Casey did it, how Martin Hayes might do it, how Kevin Burke might do it, etc. Your assumption that teachers teach only their own approach ignores the many great players and teachers out there who do so much more than that. Have you not met such teachers?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Will CPT - All your points in your original post echo comments I have heard and embraced from several other quality players I have known and learned from over the past 14 years. I'm not sure how my question regarding kiddie fiddle tunes prompted it, but I'm glad it did. I will say this, most folks who sincerely set out to learn this music come to know all your points in a fairly short amount of time - I have yet to meet a player, say two or three years into this journey, that doesn't know the simple outline you have articulated above. I think it's because even in the most remote outreaches of the session world with the most humblest of players to learn from, these truths become self-evident fairly quickly - wouldn't you agree? It has been the case in my limited experience.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
JNE, yep, it's all fairly common sense (though apparently not everyone agrees).
Shylock's thread about how to make the most of your time was the prime spark for this thread, but it also seems highly relevant to sharing this music and the trad mindset with your son. Particularly as a bit of an antidote or alternative to the Suzuki approach (which is very good in its own way). That's all I was thinking.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
It wasn’t until I gave up on relying on sheet music for tune learning, that I got honest to god bounce in my barndance(s). Oh I had a hint of it, but realized the difference in my playing. When I gave up the printed matter, my listening skills were honed to such a degree that I was able to learn a tune strictly by ear. God, did that feel great. It was a huge leap in learning. I’ve retained the tunes, have “bounce” and generally feel better about my playing.
Learning by ear is difficult at first, but as I had a great teacher, I worked through it. Sheet music is great when you’re just not sure if you’ve got it right. But it really doesn’t aid in the learning of the music. It takes intensive listening to learn, rather than a musical bubble bath style of listening.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
P.S. My intent in starting this thread was to have one place we could refer others to when they raise questions about how to learn this music. The fresh thread on inconsistency is a case in point--session savage would do well, I think, to try the ideas in this thread if he wants to be a more consistenly good player.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
"PadraigoKeefe,JamesMorrison,SeamusCreagh,PaddyJones, teach/ taught their pupils with sheet music."
Dick - That is a very different scenario from learning tunes straight off the page, without exposure to the music. Their pupils would hear the tunes played by their teacher, thus hearing all those features of the music that the dots fail to convey. Furthermore, many of those pupils (of the older teachers in particular) would have already been immersed in the music from birth, so the teacher would have assumed that they would know intuitively what it was supposed to sound like (...perhaps not so nowadays, as so many outsiders to the tradition are learning the music.). It was merely an easy way of showing them which notes to play before they had developed the ear skills to work it out for themselves.
"GeorgeWhelan, James Morrison taught the tunes with specific bowing instructions."
There may be some controversy around whether or not to teach a set way of playing a tune. But this is an entirely different issue to the ear vs. dots argument. The bowing instructions taught by Whelan and Morrison were indisputably traditional, the tradition being *made up of* those very players and others like them - so there was no danger of their pupils learning non-traditional habits.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I am hoping you good citizens of the mustard board will not allow this excellent thread to descend into another beaten down argument of ear training vs dot learning - it's so much more than that. Re-read Will CPT's original post, then dive into the good stuff - much clearer waters there...
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
'f you don't have a preconceived notion of what ITM should sound like, you're going to play it wrong. Period''
What is this? a competition to see who can can the most dogmatic statement.? ! 8-: Reverend , actually I suggest perhaps its you who are playing it 'wrong.' ?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
"The problem with many teachers who teach purely by ear,is that they produce replicas of their own style,even down to the ornamentation."
Dick - Might that not also have been the case with Whelan and Morrison? Is that necessarily a bad thing? Isn't that why regional and local styles exist. The more creative pupils will end up playing whatever music is in their heads, no matter what they're *told* to play. The rest, at the very least, will learn to play in a good style - better than playing without style, no?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
"if apupil buys Morrisons book,the Cranitch book and the Mcnevin book they are going to be aware of three different styles,that in my opinion is better than turning into aclone of your teacher."
Better still, learn by ear from Morrison, Cranitch and McNevin
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
"Your assumption that teachers teach only their own approach ignores the many great players and teachers out there who do so much more than that. Have you not met such teachers?"
That's not always necessarily the case, Will. My teacher teaches in his own style---he might show me different approaches, but I've never seen him do something like, "in Sligo they would play it like this, but in Donegal they would play it like this, but I play it like this"...
This is all fine with me because I happen to have a pretty good cd collection and I listen to anything I can get my hands on, so I don't need him to educate me on stylistic differences. If I *really* wanted to learn how Donegal fiddlers do their thing, I would probably go spend some time in Donegal and spend time with some of the fiddlers there.
But as for books, I agree, there is no way anyone can learn a style from a book.
And as for learning from books so as not to become a clone of a teacher---dickens, you're really missing the point here. You're advocating diluting the example of a real live teacher with any combination of unfiltered examples from various books? Why bother with the teacher if the books tell you everything? And where is the listening component of all this?
Oh yes, as for advice for future readers of this thread---take advantage of every opportunity you can find to learn from a real teacher, whether in lessons, workshops, or other experienced musicians.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
the crantich book comes with audio assistance, the idea is to use the two together.
better stiil learn by ear,not necessarily,
I would suggest doing both.
Morrisons book gives detailed bowing.
learn the peices at the same time if thereare recordings accessible go and listen.
in the end ,everyone has different reasons for playing,if somebody gets pleasure reading from the dots,then they shouldnt be mde to feel guilty.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Good point, Kennedy--real live mentors, in person, are the best way to learn this music. Not everyone has easy access to them, but there are always opportunities--musicians on tour passing through your town, travel to a concert, workshop, or festival, etc. Make it the point of a vacation, eh?
And I realize that not all teachers go into the various styles. All I'm saying is that *many* do. Besides, there's nothing wrong with learning from one person's approach to the music, and then learning from other people their approaches, etc. Very little risk of becoming a "clone," unless you have cloth ears and a mind shut to other influences.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Hey Will: Thanks for starting this; I appreciate your good intentions. But since it seems to be turning into yet another p*ssing contest, I'll just share what I consider to be the two best pieces of musical advice that I've received (both from professional musicians, but not in ITM):
- "...work with people who are better than you are."
- "Try to make the *band* sound good, as opposed to making yourself sound good."
I'm getting my coat. I'll reserve my, um, "manifesto" for my members page.
I dislike repeating glib quotes without elaboration (although already having done it twice), but from Spinal Tap: "...have a good time. all the time"
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by tomw
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Brillant, Tom! Thanks for that.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Right, no sight reading. Why would you want to?
Your motivation to learn a tune should be because you heard it.
Why else would you want to learn a tune? So you can have a big list of tunes you know?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
SWFL, that's a little rigid, I think. What if you found a great old book of rare tunes from 50 years ago and some of them looked interesting? Why not try them? There have been more than a few tunes resurrected that way. What if someone sends you abc's to a tune and tells you to learn it, it's a great tune?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
seems like there's no point in attempting to learn a tune from sheetmusic until you're familiar enough with the music to make a reasonable interpretation - and even then, who was it that said they could always tell when a student had learned a tune from the dots? (I read that here once) If you haven't played it enough to make it your own, it will always sound a bit canned. I suppose you can almost say the same about learning tunes from any other source - it's not going to sound like music until you inflict your own mis-rememberings and arpeggiatic predilections upon it...
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by airport
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Much different story kennedy, we're trying to help learners here, and the last thing a learner should be doing is trying to sight read something without any knowledge of how the music sounds.
Thanks for pointing that out so I can qualify.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Amen to that, tomw. After much sessioning and band work those comments ring 100% true. I could not put it better if I had a week to think about it! The idea is to make music ain't it? so it's not about 'you' it's about what you can contribute to that sound, what you can learn from listening and then putting into practice and there is no better way than playing with 'the best' as long as they are prepared to tolerate your efforts. If you are playing for a 'dance', again it's not about you - you are there to serve the needs of the dancers. If it ain't got that 'thing' they won't enjoy it and neither will you. It takes time and lots of effort, Llig's joke about 25 years of hard labour does, to my mind, have a kernal of truth.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
''Your motivation to learn a tune should be because you heard it.''
Should be? Where does 'should' come in to art
Anyhow when I play a tune from the dots I listen to it . if I like it , enough I might learn it.
It doesnt matter where i get a tune from, I will make it my own.
The whole title of this thread is a leading question. the one true way?
If you want to learn to play tunes,go to a highly qualified teacher. simple. In fact go to several. twice a week at minimum so you dont practice your mistakes enough to ingrain them. simple. practice every day. If you want to become good , practice a lot every day, dedicate your life to it. Immerse your self in it . use every aid there is. including scales arpeggio, dots, Dont restrict yourself to 'the one true way' there is no 'one true way'. It is a fabrication of self important people. Enjoy your music. Enjoy your life .
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Dude, you’re not a beginner. This is for beginners, Will's intent was to help people learn. I don’t think novices sight reading without any clue about what the music sounds like is going to help anyone, least of all themselves.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Fair enough, but you get my point? there are no should's in art. If you want your art to conform to certain criteria then , ok, it is advisable to understand those criteria.
?if you are a beginner, practice scales and arpeggio, they are the building blocks of all the tunes., thats my advice For how long?; depends on the individual, for me I still enjoy that practice, sure it is only one small part of my practice , but as you say I am no beginner. A number of people virulently object to me posting this advice. It is not the 'one true way' well get over it folks I dont agree with you. . free speech.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well here's a bit more free speech. I'm just idly looking around the threads here and I've come across you peddling this crap twice in five minutes. Why don't you just go and practise your scales or something and stop trying to give lousy, damaging advice?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Steve, when you have been playing half as long as me , you might change your opinion. but you already know it all so I doubt it.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well, here's the difference.
1. Art - do what ya want
2. Traditional music - well, see, there's this whole "Tradition" thing there
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
And isn't that just one massive difference, SWFL.
In modern art (painting) it's like avant garde jazz, anything goes if you can get away with it, and get paid.
But ITM is more comparable to Russian Icons, with fixed rules about what is acceptable and what isn't. Within the rules there's plenty of scope, but if you break the rules it's no longer within that traditional art form.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL, I can just see the boyos in the old days talking about their "art music."
There are no shoulds...except daily scale and arpeggio practice. Eh? Meh.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Exactly wolfbird. In using that old language analogy again, I mean, you can choose to speak the language however the heck you want, but is anyone going to understand what you're saying if your language doesn't conform to the accepted linguistic standards? You'd sound like the white kid at the hip-hop show. "Hey funky dudes, may I kick it with you fellows?"
...but not everyone may care, and that's fine, to each their own, fair play to all, but the thread's about helping newbies learn Irish Traditional music, I thought.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
So is trad not art?
At what point does something become traditional?
What are the boundaries of this 'tradition'?
Who sets them?
Who stretches them?
If you or I wish to play tunes in a 'non-traditional' manner, are they still playing trad? or is it another genre?
Which 'tradition'? Clare? London , travellers?
What are these 'traditions' anyhow?
From whence did they originate? What do we actually know about this thing we call tradition?
Why do we play the music? for our selves? the audience?
Where do we cater for people who want to play their tunes in a non-'traditional' manner? Are they excluded? do they have to follow the 'one true way' to be accepted?
Why 'should' we conform to a narrow minded version of ITM? Where do Eastern european tunes come in? they're at the sessions. Does the 'tradition' encompass Scottish tunes? welsh? Manx? Irish American? American? Canadian?
What instruments are traditional? why? says who?
A lot of these questions are raised and to some extent answered here. There is no 'one true way'. The diversity of life is to be celebrated , not restricted and forced to conform to some 'one true way'.
What you class as ' traditional' is different to what I call trad. Is your concept i more valid than mine?
Sure we all accept there are guidelines. but to rigidly impose those guidelines on others, now there you have fascism.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Eeek! , Godwin's Law. Best to reserve the nasty 'f' word for appropriate subjects. It means enforcement of political ideas using violence.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Art, as I understand it, covers music, theatre, dance, painting, literature, etc. ITM comes in a sub-category, generic traditional music. It's boundaries are decided by the carriers of the tradition amongst themselves.
The concept of trad held by the majority will automatically more valid than yours, jig. It's not a matter of 'my opinion is as good as yours', because it's a group thing, a general consensus.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
jig, contrary to your imaginings, the title of this thread doesn't imply any "one true way." It's merely a signpost for anyone wandering by who might want to learn to play this music (Irish traditional music, just to be clear) by playing the tunes themselves, as has been done for generations.
As you have suggested previously, if this thread doesn't suit your tastes, perhaps you'd enjoy spending your time elsewhere....
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well everyone I have ever had a lesson or master class with has *not* repeat *NOT* used the dots.
I used to rely heavliy on ABCs when I was starting out. One day my teacher came in grabed my ABCs and put them in the bin and said 'Its time to learn by ear, trust me - you'll thank me for it"
And you know what? I do thank her for it, its by far the fastest and easiest way to pick up tunes. I could name drop about all the teachers as well, but I wont.
Also Michael G is spot on - there is not enough information in sheet music. So you have to be a good listener to get anything out of the dots, so why dont you just then pick up tunes by listening?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Ah, traditionally we are, taught scales first. so I really dont know what you are on about. As has been done for generations.
'' majority will automatically more valid than yours, jig. '' Ahh tyranny of the majority is it, that's an interesting concept WB, shall we explore it a bit more deeply? .
Who are this majority and how does one become part of them? does one have to be Irish? or play ITM? for how long before you qualify? so lets see , what's your position?How long do you have to play to become a valid card carrying member of the majority>? 1 year ? 5 years? 15 yrs? 20 yrs? 25 yrs?
Sorry will, am I disagreeing with you? Am I not free to contribute to 'your' thread? So you agree there is no 'one true way' ? great thats good. So you wont get all upset and start insulting me again ?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
jig, I suggest that if you want to discuss the questions on your list, above, the put them in a new thread and desist from wrecking this one. Thanks.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Oh and I agree with the poster before who said just go into and sit in sessions, even if you only know one tune, even if they dont play that one tune at least you'll have been there 3 hours soaking up the tunes.
I get very worried when people talk about learning style from books, surely style is something you pick up from people you play tunes with, listen to on records, go and see in concerts etc?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Wolbird - I have never seen a thread that does not go off into something completely different - that is part of the fun - or depression - whichever way you look at it.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
no. bb i dont think so, that is not style but mimicry.
Style is something that develops internally, that is an expression of your character. Mimicry is a stage on the road to style, but it all has to be internalised and organically grow from within.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well ok - but youve got a hell of alot more chance of developing your own style if you dont try and get it out of a book.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, bb, and I'm one of the worst offenders. My brain is like one of those shopping trolleys with a bent wheel, and jumps to others issues as it's natural habit. However, several people stated that this thread be for beginners who visit the site wanting to learn. It'll be a shame IMO, if that aim gets turned into a train wreck, which is inevitable if we get into the twenty or more topics jig just introduced.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
And where I live there is no 'Style' Regional or otherwise, and we get alot of people from Ireland who play tunes coming through from all different parts of Ireland and all with different styles. So the "Style" part is a bit wasted on where we are, sure I like alot of different "Styles" but I'm not going to sit down and start playing "East Galway Style" - cause that would be totally naff - cause I'm not from East galway. I have my own style - its called the "Inner West" style, and I think it may just catch on. One of the tricks is to play exactly like Dow does....then you can have the Inner West Style as well.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I think you're referring to two different kinds of "style" there. There's the style of music, and your personal style of playing it.
Since we're talking about beginners here, we're talking about the style of the music - the bits that can't be notated in dots, and the parts that make it sound like Irish music - the lift, swing, lilt, nyah, etc.
A personal style is developed over years of playing and developing an understanding of the style of the music.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
So what else is out there?
answer,enjoyment,
it doesnt matter ,as long as you get enjoyment from your music,whether you are playing at home with or without dots.
if somebody comes from a classical background and is used to reading music,and needs to gradually get used to a different discipline,why shouldnt they.
sheet music gives you a lot of information,
it is good to listen to good players,unfortunately there are many not so good players,who dont listen to other musicians,many of these players are players who cant read music,and are not very musical.
some cant play in tune, some cant play in rhythm.
most musicians from a classical background,have learned certain disciplines,playing in time, playing in tune,
most classical musicans I have encountered,in time learn to understand,the difference beteween the two different styles,and most have a good technique.
Iam not a classical musician
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Ahh - ok Wolfbird - I get it
Although I do think its kinda waving a red flag at a bull asking that people try to keep to the subject on this thread.
"hey everyone - look at me, hijack hijack!"
It was a nice idea thoug Will
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Wow Dickens - you are lucky - Ive only ever seen a classical Violinist cross over to trad successfully twice in my life, and I know alot of fiddle players.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
The thing is this concept of 'classical' players includes everyone from a lass with half a dozen lessons to one who has dedicated their life to music gone through the Paris conservatoire and been a successful soloist. Its such a wide definition it is pretty meaningless.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I think someone who had half a dozen lessons would be safe - I mean more people who have gone through the grades, after that kind of thing is drilled into you its very hard to let go.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well I have a friend who indeed went to the Paris conservatoire. Lives over here and plays trad excedingly well. so the other end of the spectrum also.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
This thread is called "Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes". The tyranny of the majority and how Traditions get defined by previous generations is on Floor 7 next to "Housewares". Thanks for shopping at Buzzkills!
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Any soundclips of your Paris Conservatoire friend?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I know alot of musicians who live in Clare - I'd be interested in who could change from classical to trad like that. Who is it?
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
reply sent bb. I dont like mentioning names on a public forum.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
If he or she plays trad exceedingly well perhaps you could ask him or her if he or she would just mind sticking up a sound-clip or two. I'd really like that, as would lots of other people around here I'm sure.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Okay -thanks jig - have to get back to you later, they dont let me check email at work....Tyrants
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Anyway.... back to the playing of tunes. I refer you all to the home page of this site, which I will call "exhibit A" - the word "tunes" appears three times. Case rested.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by airport
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL, airport, don't look now, but Jeremy's gone and revised the home page. I just checked. It reads:
"Welcome to jig's Session
The exchange of bad advice, scale and arpeggio drills, and gratuitous insults is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on scales, arpeggios, and metronome exercises.
Some of these exercises are well known, and some are more obscure. It's this mixture of the familiar and the new that makes for a session where the craic is 90."
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL! I see he's changed the color too, which is probably good. I've always suspect the bilious color contributes to certain folks getting their pants in a celtic twist!
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by airport
What I would like to see
"I don't like being obnoxious on a public forum. Therefore, I won't post my opinions".
- Jig
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
There is something that I learned as I learned to play tunes, but I am not quite sure how to express it. I learned to take my mind out of the loop, kind of. I have always been uncoordinated, and tend to overthink when I try to play sports, ball falling out of the glove as I am figuring out exactly how to catch it. But this music moves quickly enough that if you attempt to think about it, you will be lost. So you just have to leap in and let your fingers find their spots on the whistle or whatever. You have to 'be the music,' I guess you could say. Just fall into the groove, and let the music play you, I guess would be another way to express it. And it feels great when you get to the point that you can do that. Does that make sense to anyone?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
It does to me, AlBrown. I also think the more you play, the more the music plays you. Imagine when you first started, were playing a tune and hit a wrong note. When that happened to me I was totally fummoxed. I stopped playing then started over again. But the more I played, the more the music played. And the music could tolerate the wrong note. It just kept going. Like it was alive in the fiddle. That seems like the groove. I love that.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by John Culhane
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yep, Al, "living inside the tune."
But there's also a sense of time within the tune where you can consciously relax, scrape wax out of your ear, or plan the next note, even at warp speed. JNE and I were just discussing this over on another thread: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17763/comments#comment369648
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
"In Soviet Russia, tune play you!"
No but seriously, that's so right, let the tune play you.
The Zen of it all! The tune playing you! Wolfbird, where art thou?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
to get back to the title of the thread,Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes.
nothing wrong with that,
I think with most musical instruments a small amount of time improving technique is also important.
learning to play from music is a technique,and [imo]can be useful.
learning to play by ear is very important too.
if you are playing the fiddle,I think it is important,to do other things apart from just playing tunes,for instance practising rolls ,practising right hand ornamentation,improving tone [practising long bows]and possibly a few slurring, bowing and crossing string exercises.
with the banjo maybe a few picking exercises,[crosspicking etc].with the harmonica, tongueing exercises
it is also important when playing tunes to practise them,for example if there is a bar[or phrase ]of a tune,that the player is having difficulty with,it needs to be practised in isolation slowly.or with the preceding bar.
so I say this:you can learn to play this music by playing tunes,but it depends how you play them,if you play through the tune without listeningto how youare playing and without rectifying errors youare just practising your mistakes.but Ithink students of an instruyment will make quicker progress,if as well as PRACTISING tunes ,they spend a certain amount of time on technique.
my concertina tutor is intended so that the student plays certain tunes that incorporate octave playing, arpeggios scales and other techniques,on occasions tunes are written in a couple of keys,so that the pupil becomes more familiar with the layout of the instrument. DickMiles
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Trying to stay somewhere near the topic, SWFL....
But that's way off topic 
but seeing as you asked me, yes, Al's phrase 'being the music', and 'living inside the tune', nice words, nice concepts, and one of the main reasons for playing because it's such a great experience...
The thing is, how or why does it happen, and why can't you get it on demand ?
I recall in my teens, discussing with a university student, who was a very bright guy, that I could remember in my childhood, being completely lost in a game, playing with toys so that everything else ceased to exist. I wanted that experience back. It never happened anymore. The guy thought it might be a dangerous thing to want. I gave it a lot of thought.
The next signpost I can remember, was reading Zen Training by Sekida. That author described how he had that same experience as a child, doing calligraphy. Nothing existed but doing the brush marks. He also lost it and wanted it back.
Next signpost was The Heart of Buddhist Meditation by Nyanaponika Thera. (The style of writing is a bit laborious but the book is a gold mine). He explains it all in meticulous detail.
It is possible to get that state of losing self and being totally focussed, on demand. That author calls it absorbtion. You have to build up a certain ability or level of concentration upon one point of attention. That's a bit difficult at first, but once you learn how to do it, you can just switch into that mode.
That's what happens usually when I've been playing for a few minutes. Sometimes the mind is too restless and disparate and it's difficult or impossible to get that unity. But when it does happen it's always pleasurable. But you don't notice until you come out of it at the end and think 'that was great'.
I think it's a perfectly natural thing, the 'dangerous' idea was nonsense ( just so long as you havn't left a pan of chip fat heating on the stove, or whatever ).
What the buddhists did was to notice that experience and explore and develop it, as part of Right Meditation and Right Concentration. It gets abstracted from any particular activity, like playing, and becomes an independent pursuit or exercise.
The natural form which most people experience at some times in their lives is actually quite shallow, can be called 1st. jhana. You can keep going deeper, 2nd., 3rd. jhanas, etc. Then it starts getting *really* interesting !
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
The 'tune playing you' experience comes from concentration upon the playing, and an undivided attention. That makes it sound a bit technical, but really it's just an exhilarating temporary loss of self...when the experience is sought on it's own, not linked to a musical instrument or computer game or reading a book, then it can be called jhana, as a buddhist technical term.
"Jhana is best translated as "meditative absorption state."....You know what an "absorption state" is - it's when you get so involved in a TV show or video game or mystery novel that you are surprised when the phone rings and brings you back to reality. The Jhanas are eight altered states of consciousness which can arise during periods of strong concentration. The Jhanas are naturally occurring states of mind, but learning how to enter them at will and how to stay in them takes practice."
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/jhana.html
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Eh, we're well over 100 posts now wb, no worries about topic, I think, plus we've got a lot of wreckage above.
One pointed concentration on the tune! Is it OK to meditate with tunes? I suppose that's exactly what we're talking about here, clearing the mind of everything but one thing, in this case, the tune, eh?
But, then again, there are the times I don't want to disappear into the tune, like when the pretty waitress is bringing another pint, for example.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I agree with you, SWFL. You don't want to get too lost in the tune, because you need to be able to put some thought into what comes next... oh, and the pretty waitress too...
Actually, I think of it more as sharing the space with the tune in my head, kind of like Dr. McCoy, when he had Spock's katra within... You share the space, but you still have control (for the most part), and can gently guide the tune in different directions...
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well, SWFL, The question as to whether it's okay to meditate on a tune is interesting. Whenever you play music (or do anything else, including sleep), your mind is going to be in some sort of condition or other.
The point about buddhism is that, in one sense, it's an exploration of mind, of consciousness. The insight gained permits some control. In theory, a person could become completely absorbed in the music whenever they wished, rather than just a matter of chance.
That one-pointedness of mind is an entirely natural ability, a potential that anyone has. Just that the buddhists develop and strengthen it. It was called jhana by the buddhists of southern India. In the north they called it dhyana, same word slightly different pronunciation. When buddhism went to China used the same term but with their pronunciation, ch'an. Then, when it got to Japan, they called it zen.
Zen buddhists talk about the buddha-mind. It's a way to keep the mind pure, free from confusion and negative influences. It's helpful to any aspect of human existence. You're no longer at the mercy of the ideas and automatic impulses that rule the ordinary mind. For example, when you get distracted by the pretty waitress, you notice your attention moving, which gives you time to consider whether it's wise or appropriate to wink...
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Careful, where SWFL lives, they're more likely to talk about the bubba-mind.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well, Will, Reverend, and SWFL....I can speak on this topic for hours, probably even days...
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Great phrase wb: "...temporary loss of self..." then the waitress shows up and BAM! Right back in my body, wishing instead that I was in the waitress'...
"Why do I bother?" Why do I bother? Where else are you going to find milennia-old explanations for that magical feeling of the whole pub levitating mid-set?
Yes, that's tough too Rev, what about "the one that goes next" or if you don't have a "one that goes next" and you need to think about that while floating around in tune-space? I suppose we can extend the power of one pointed concentration to include the entire music making experience, as far as the tune playing you ("In Soviet Russia...") and continuity of set, tune selection, etc.
Not sure where the waitress fits in, or where I fit in the...
OK, I'm going to give Innuendo-Man a nice rest and we'll see ya in a few. Somebody better do some work around this place and quit screwing around on the internet, waiting for quitting time so he can go play some tunes.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
"Bubba Mind" aka "The Zen of 'Y'all'"
OM MANE PADME Hock-ptui! Anyone seen my Skoal?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL!
First it was the Tao of Dow. Now we have the rise of Zen Bubbaism....
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I don't know if any musicians playing ITM have considered their playing as a spiritual endeavour in the zen sense, but there doesn't seem any obvious reason why tunes can't be used as a focus of meditation.
In Japan, during the Edo period (1603 - 1867), the shakuhachi was used as a tool for meditation by Zen Buddhist priests in order to reach enlightenment, particularly the Fuke sect of Zen Buddhist monks, known as komuso (”priests of nothingness”), who used the shakuhachi as a spiritual tool.
Their songs were paced according to the players’ breathing and were considered meditation as much as music.
The zen shakuhachi flute is not like a recorder: it has no mouthpiece as such, and simply blowing in one end will not produce a sound. To play a note, your lips and mouth must become part of the instrument. And it is this oneness of instrument and player that permits so much flexibility in pitch, tone, colour, and loudness of playing.
Part of the discipline of mastering the zen flute is learning to deal with the frustrations inherent in learning to play it. That is why much of its study is dedicated to 'forging the mind-body' - developing the intuitive, spiritual side of the performer as much as the musicianship itself.
Playing the shakuhachi in this context is called suizen, or 'blowing zen'. To blow zen, one requires great breath control; yet, after years of training and practice, the shakuhachi player strives not to try to control the breath at all. Instead the breath is observed. The player watches the breath with a concentration that consumes both the observer and that which is being observed - the player 'becomes' the breathing.
I'm not a player of any of the wind instruments used in ITM, so not qualified to compare Irish flute and whistle music with the Japanese techniques.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Interestingly enough, I have a co-worker who just bought a shakuhachi and is giving it a whirl. He's a practicing Buddhist who got it for exactly that reason, and I'm the only one in the office crazy enough to talk to him for longer than five minutes. (I'm teasing, he's a good guy)
The thing is, there doesn't seem to be any tunes, per se, just meditative passages and whatnot. Very interesting.
Everything you're saying is something I've had in my head for a while, wolfbird, perhaps we should explore it further down the line, the tune as meditation...
I know I certainly feel a deep inner peace when I play. The only thing like it is when I think of my sons. I get the same deep, spiritual connections going on there, very moving.
The waitress causes a completely different movement all together.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I have Bamboo growing in my garden. the other day a fellow was up looking for bamboo to make shakuhachi . You need to have the root in the instrument. lovely sound.
Interesting WB. sounds like Kyudo As you know i spent a decade training daily in Karatedo. And crosstrained in Aikido and Judo before moving on to Jutsu forms. I dearly love the zen aspects of these disciplines. My Dojo is much in that vein. Those years have effected me deeply, part of me. . I use lessons learnt there in all aspects of my life and music.
I thoroughly enjoy reading your words on these subjects and others. Onagaishimas.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
One of the problems that occur when talking to Westerners about meditation, is that there's no words in english equivalent to the buddhist jargon. Most people have a vague idea about 'meditation', something like being in a dreamy state, or contemplating, or even prayer. But in the buddhist traditions there's a couple of thousand years worth of intense research into the subject, with tremendously detailed classifications of the techniques and experiences.
The topic came up because of Al Brown's description of pleasant unusual sense of being lost in the music. The word meditation has become common in the West since the 1960's via yoga, Transcendental Meditation, etc, as some sort of hippy thing, along with aroma therapy and homeopathy and all the complimentary medicine stuff. I'm not knocking any of that, but what the word means to me is something different.
I'm talking about zazen, as a formal practice, where you sit in lotus posture on a proper cushion. I learned it from the Soto Zen tradition, but it's much the same in other zen traditions. I can say, without any doubt or question, that it's the best thing I ever found.
For someone following that zen path seriously, everything and anything is part of the practice. It's not like what most Christians think of as religion, going to church on Sundays or for weddings, etc. In fact, it doesn't fit easily under the label religion, or the label philosophy. It's got bits of both, but it's got bits that are neither.
I've been into it for a long time, so it's not easy for me to put my head into the position of someone who knows nothing about it, but I've been thinking about how it might relate to playing music.
Obviously, it can connect to music, as above re the shakuhachi.
But that music, although it's got a unique quality, is long slow sustained notes. At least, I've never heard any fast stuff. I have three recordings of shakuhachi, although I don't listen to them very frequently.
I suppose the pace, and the sorrowfulness, is very roughly approximate to slow airs. Not much like say, Matt Malloy. I sometimes think Micho Russell sounds kinda zen, because his playing seems so gentle and sensitive and peaceful, beautifully simple and unaffected.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Zazen for me is in Seiza.
http://sh*tokai.com/newsletter/mokuso.php
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
hmm, thats very strange. I cut and paste the address but the i has been replaced with an *. here it is againl;
http://sh*tokai.com/newsletter/mokuso.php
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Hah did it again... weird. I will adjust it manually;
http://sh*tokai.com/newsletter/mokuso.php
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
just scrap the * and replace it with an 'i'
??????
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
did you find it? sorry about that . anyone understand why a cut and paste link developed an error?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, I know jig. It's Jeremy's anti-vulgarity filter.
Thing is, I see it rather differently. In (most ?) martial arts, meditation is a smallish part, whilst the major concern is with fitness, training, practising moves, etc.
I'm familiar with mushin, translated as 'no mind', in Japanese and Chinese traditions. It's viewed as a good state of consciousness from which to fight.
But Soto Zen is centred entirely upon the mind.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
You're right wolfbird. Upon further review, I find the mental state (in lieu of misuse of the term 'meditation') that comes from playing the music most similar to trance. It's vastly more shamanistic than the Eastern philosophies as it's goal and function is to induce dance. Movement, music, and dance have all been used throughout the history of modern man across many cultures to induce trances in shamans, leading to spiritual insights and contact with the spirit world. Hence we have fairies teaching pipers tunes, and so on.
That mythology is a direct remnant of indigenous shamanistic cultural traditions, filtered through the times as they were; stories of pipers being lured into the fairy realm (spirit world of the shaman) by eager, dancing fairies (spirits) while they were playing (inducing a self-trance, thus seeing the spirits and the spirit world) and being taught tunes by the fairies. (receiving spiritual insight from the experience)
Of course, it could also be just drunken piper stories, but man's oldest religion and spirituality is shamanism, and it was shared by all cultures. [shrug]
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
'its' not 'it's goal'
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
oh yeah. I never encountered it befor sh*toryu, ah I get it funny
Ah, thats because you are an outsider looking in. like most people you see the surface but fail to see the depths. like a mountain lake, the only way to experiance the depths is to jump on in.
And fair enough, its quite possible to paddle about on the surface thinking that's all there is. many do. but to explore the depths requires determination, courage and a certain dis-attachment to the material plane we call life. Only by dying can you truly live....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, SWFL, it's an interesting distinction to make. There's obviously a lot of overlap between stuff shamans and similar folks have done for millennia, and zen meditation, and all kinds of other practices, like mediums and mystics and yogis and seers and acid heads, because they're all human and share the same brain structure and biology.
And there's wide differences between branches of buddhism too. Zen is really a child of buddhism and taoism. But within zen itself, there's lots of sects and sub-divisions. There's an enormous choice available !
The way I like to look at it is, that there are multiple maps of the same territory, some maps are very crude and simple, some incredibly sophisticated and complex. If you want to find your way around, best choose a good map and stick with it. Other maps may be just as good, but the names and symbols are all different so means starting afresh, like learning a foreign language. A woman I know is into Dzogchen. There's a lot of similarities to Jap zen buddhism, but the language and approach is different.
The way I see it, because 'altered states' are natural and intrinsic to everyone's mind, millions of people have stumbled upon them at various times. So, stories of fairies can be one way of explaining. All cultures have such stories. But mostly people don't investigate those altered states in a systematic - one could almost say, scientific - and orderly way. That's what makes the buddhism of Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese, and others special. The maps are detailed and reliable, so you don't get lost, the way people do taking hallucinogens and dancing and so on.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Shamanism is by its nature, guided by a shaman, who how knows, who has been there. Wonderful book here wb, ever read it?
http://www.grahamhancock.com/supernatural/
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
No, SWFL, I havn't read that one, but read lots on shamanism.
No offence, but G. Hancock is a bit over the top for me. There's what I call the Von Daniken school of authors, a market flooded with books popularizing bizarre and mind boggling stuff.
It's very difficult to draw a line, particularly if you have someone you like and respect who 'believes' and you don't yourself. I'm very interested in stone circles and megaliths. In that area, there are loads of people whom I consider, well, what's a kind word ? misguided ?
I've got one foot in science. I want evidence that justifies a conclusion. I don't believe, for example, that crop circles are constructed by aliens from outer space.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
On the same theme, I think it was Will CPT the other day, said he rejected religion partly because of untestable childish myths, etc.
Well, I'm quite close to that position, in some respects. My father was a scientist, I learned basic scientific outlook. I remember finding a book in a library with beautiful paintings of chakras. I had a sense of outrage. How can anybody believe that nonsense and sell books about it ?
That was because there was no place that chakras could be accommodated in my belief system. The idea clashed with my paradigm of reality.
But, aha ! A few years later, after much meditation, psychedelics, etc, I realized my mistake. Chakras are internal. You have to close your eyes and go deep into inner consciousness to find chakras. Science doesn't even acknowledge that possibilty, let alone know anything about it. But buddhism does, hindu yoga does....
So, I have to bear that lesson in mind when I evaluate peculiar ideas. I'm sceptical about everything, but also open minded about everything. I like to check it out.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
So wolfbird we have more in common than I would've guessed from how things went on that previous thread.
I like the scientific method, but acknowledge that empiricism has its limits--we know (based on the scientific method) that we can't always trust our own senses, or our mind's circuitry. So there's a leap of faith in science, too.
I've also seen fairly compelling evidence of chi and chakras, though I remain unconvinced.
Less a skeptic than just awaiting more solid support for what or what not to believe....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yes, Will CPT, it took me years and years how to figure out an explanation for the conflicting views of reality, and the meaning of life, that different people have.
I mean, sincere, good people (not con men and liars) had/ have totally incompatible understandings of what the world is and what it's like and why we are here, so much so, that it's almost impossible even to discuss, because the languages and concepts are so different....
But I got there in the end (at least, to my own satisfaction).
I don't think we'd disagree much about science and it's methodology and limitations. My misgivings and dislikes of science are mostly to do with it's commercialisation and way discoveries are misused.
If we look at the religions, people normally think first of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Fewer people in the West know anything about Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. And then there's zillions of minor religions and beliefs.
There's different ways to approach knowledge. The scientific way is empirical measurement, testable falsifiable theory, etc.
But none of us have ever seen an H2O molecule. We have to accept what the scientists say, that they are decent people working in good faith. We assume, if we really wanted, we could force them to prove and demonstrate that water really is H2O.
Well, in buddhism, likewise. The Buddha said, not to believe anything just because he said it. He said check it out for yourself. Most people are happy to take the Buddha's word. But I myself was sceptical. I tried loads of other things that turned out to be crap, or fanciful nonsense.
I read all the Taoist, Hindu, Buddhist meditation manuals. I had a sceptical open mind. I worked very hard at it. It is hard work, a lot like learning to master a musical instrument. And I found what I was looking for.
The thing is, you have to understand, a lot of the texts are ancient, written in archaic, poetic language, maybe even in languages that aren't used any more. The same sort of problem as ancient biblical scrolls. You can't just reject something because it isn't immediately clear to modern Western logic.
Once you get the idea about what they're talking about, things start to fit together. It's different from scientific knowledge but no less valid. If you go to a strange city, ask for directions to the bus station, follow the advice and arrive where you wanted to get, well, that's practical, useful truth. You don't need to find fancy proof or have peer group review to validate and verify your methodology. It works in practice. You catch the bus.
It's like that with those jhanas. If you follow the instructions exactly, and persist, you get what those old guys centuries ago said you'd get. It's an exploration of inner space. Most people, especially most scientists with busy highly trained intellects don't understand how it can be possible. It doesn't figure in the Western psychological model. It's not mentioned in the school text books, so it can't exist.
The point is, not so much what to believe or not, but that, if you have your own personal direct experience, it doesn't matter what you've been told is correct or true. You just know, because you did it.
First time you might think, 'wow, that was weird', and can't really comprehend what happened. But if you find it again and again it becomes familiar, and you keep going further.
I like the jhana map (from Theravada Buddhism) but other schools of buddhism have different ways of mapping the same territory. Like, some say you go through those stages. Some explain the same sort of thing differently.
What I conclude from my own experience, is the fundamental model of reality that I was taught by the culture I grew up in, is incorrect. I mean that in a scientific sense. The common view does not correspond with the truth, rather like Galileo saying that, although it looks to everyone as if the Sun is going around the Earth (common sense, yeah ? how could anybody deny what we all observe) the truth is that the Earth goes around the Sun.
BTW, I don't think chi and chakras are very important. There's interesting things about them. Same goes for jig's link to mushin and martial arts. Some people pursue the stuff to be good at combat, some people to try and be healthy and live a long time, and other reasons. I think those reasons are inferior. I mean, if you want to be good at self-defence buy a gun, and take vitamins to be healthy. My reason, my motivation, is wanting to understand insofar as it's possible what the f**k this 'thing' is that I'm finding all around me, that people call the world or the Universe...it's a philosophical quest. I just felt, it's got no damn right to create me and then just leave me baffled and confused !
The Buddha, and many Taoist and Hindu and Zen masters suggest that there are ways to find a satisfactory answer by a different route from Western philosophical logic and scientific discoveries. I think they were right. In fact, I know they were right.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I'm reminded of the parable about the mystic who spent his entire life by a river meditating and plumbing his depths and becoming enlightened, gradually testing the water, ever so slowly learning to walk on water, and finally, one day, after many years of attempts and failure, he was able to walk across the river, atop the water.
When, during all that time, with no effort on the mystic's part, a boatman would've taken him across for a single small coin....
I come at all this from the simple perspective of thinking, observing, feeling (and whatever other abilities I discover in myself) for myself, not taking anyone else's word for anything. (Obviously, most of the time I let most mundane things slide--like whether the jar with the peanut butter label really is peanut butter or the guy with the little tin wings on his lapels at the front of the plane really is a pilot, unless reasons pop up for me to think otherwise.) But the big questions (and some not so big one) are too important to blindly trust to any other assemblage of carbon atoms.
I'm also reminded of a bumper sticker I saw the other day: "Conscious--that confusing state of mind betweeb naps."
Reverend should do a tee-shirt: "Consciousness--that confusing, unproductive, thirsty time between sessions."
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
On the original point, a classical music teacher friend of mine said that the point of studies was to provide pieces of music to practice techique on, but where it didn't matter that you were completely sick of the piece by the time you'd learnt to play it.
A real pity if you get sick of a very good piece of music through overplaying and excessive concentration on the technical problems it contains - therefore be wary of which tunes you choose to learn your techique on...
Maybe this is the cause of the bad reputation of certain tunes out there?
Chris
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
I'm familiar with the story of the mystic and the boatman, Will CPT.
Thing is, anybody could pay for a ferry. It's all thoroughly understood and explicable. But surely, any open minded scientist or philosopher who sees someone walking on the water would be curious because it's an event that defies the orthodox rules of physics. It would show that there must be something missing or mistaken in the theories.
But there's another interesting point in there, about motivation. I think motive makes a difference. If the mystic devoted his life because he wanted to do bizarre tricks, he wouldn't be enlightened in my understanding of the word.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Oh wolfbird, Hancock gets an awful rep in the mass media, yet he does not espouse aliens making crop circles, or any other nonsense they spread about him, no sir. Please don't accept that mass media slandering.
His work Supernatural is a brilliant exploration of man's earliest spirituality and the similarities shared between all mystical and spiritual experiences. He reports, the reader decides, no matter what the BBC says.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well, SWFL, I have not read that book - not sure if I've read any Hancock books actually, but my memory is unreliable - and I didn't intend to suggest *he* was promoting 'aliens make crop circles', just that he gets lumped together with the huge number of books in that area..e.g. Dan Brown
Where do you draw the line yourself, SWFL ? How do you decide ? I mean, it was hard enough years ago, when there were only books. With the internet it's even more difficult to know what's credible when there's so much crazy stuff being peddled.
Someone wrote a book about this area claiming a Dyfed Triangle similar to Bermuda Triangle. I've read about people coming to the area and claiming it's common to see Earthlights (whatever they are ?) flashing at night. I see them myself often.
Thing is they have nothing to do with UFOs or unknown physics, as claimed. The answer is easy and obvious. There's lots of lighthouses for shipping along the coast, and the flashes get reflected off low cloud.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
That's a good question. I try to remain brutally skeptical, and very strict with myself, while at the same time remaining wide open. Well, now I'm drifting into your Zen area of expertise with cryptic and conflicting notions like that, eh?
I don't know if there are any easy guidelines. I try to defy deciding, I guess. I'd love to imagine there was a way to look at everything scientifically and perform a reductio ad absurdum on everything as well, but there simply isn't. Some things need to be taken with faith, and those things I can usually verify for myself, like what is best in life? Friends, family, music, so these good things are what's important, I can touch them, feel them, they are real and I understand why they are good and beneficial. This intellectual processing of emotional subjects, for me, actually allows me to derive spiritual satisfaction from them. It satisfies my intellect and I don't feel like I'm cheating myself.
With Hancock he does that very well. He refuses to make leaps the tin-foil hat crowd would, because he's always using a strict scientific reporting process, ultimately, he's one of the last impartial investigative journalists who dares to explore wild notions while using a scientific method.
However, it's truly bizarre to think about how all cultures of mankind shared that shamanistic spirituality, all over the world, and how our modern religions and spiritual systems contain all those notions; there is another world that we can not perceive, we each can reach it inside ourselves via spiritual practice, “The kingdom of God is within you”, etc and so on.
I don't know what it means, to be honest, however I refuse to decide on anything before I'm intellectually satisfied with my decision. Does that make any sense?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Sure, SWFL, it makes sense. I used to take the position (which may also be Hancock's, I don't know) that Mircea Eliade wrote about, that there are universal human experiences, first perceived by shamans - being the spiritual experts in hunter-gatherer soceities, and then, as soceities grew larger and developed into civilizations, the same experiences became the basis of the full- blown developed religions. Seems a reasonable hypothesis at least. He was a serious, scholarly man and gathered masses of evidence.Although I have read some quite persuasive critiques of Eliade.
But then I hit post-modern philosophy, logocentrism, de-constructionism, all that stuff. All we are doing is telling ourselves stories (of varying qualities). That philosophical approach can demolish most belief systems. But funnily enough, it can't touch zen.
If you read the teachings of the zen masters, they're the very opposite of logocentric. They say abandon all thought if you want to progress. That's why, IMO, zen is unique. It's a belief system which has, as it's purpose, the demolition of belief systems, including, ultimately, it's own. That is, it teaches direct insight into the nature of reality, using a highly sophisticated practical methodology developed by thousands and thousands of contributors over the last two or three millennia.
To paraphrase, very briefly, your position for requiring intellectual satisfaction - zen says you can't find ultimate truth by intellectual means, it requires a different approach.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
The Golden Bough is another good read on the beginnings and development of belief systems.
) , that's a fair point you make. Maybe it's just me, but in 30 years of playing this music, I've never gotten tired of a single tune yet. And the tunes I learned much of my technique on are still some of my favorites, with a deeper understanding and sentimental connection for me.
Crackpot (no, not you, Ian
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Yeah, Will CPT, I've read The Golden Bough, but it's been completely rejected by mainstream anthropology and archaeology.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Of course. So?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Well, seeing as you ask, Will CPT, it's an excellent example of the problem, as SWFL put it so neatly above. How does one decide ?
If the consensus amongst the specialists who devote their careers to studying a subject is that James Frazer is not acceptable, how does one estimate the book ?
Or, to make it slightly more emotive, look at the clash between Charles Darwin and those who took a literal interpretation of Genesis in the 19th. C.
Do you believe A, or do you believe B ? My position is, that I investigated buddhism, etc, as an open-minded sceptic, and found I could verify the claims I read about, by direct personal experience. That's good enough for me. I trust my own judgement, regardless of what others may believe.
It's a bit like the controversy over acupuncture in the 1960s. Western science was almost unanimous in denouncing acupuncture as garbage, in the same category they put astrology and numerology. They weren't even interested in looking at the evidence. It didn't fit the orthodox medical paradigm, so they based their judgement on prejudice.
And then someone went to China and observed anaesthesis provided by acupuncture during major surgery.
My personal position re the stuff I believe is similar to that, like having observed it first hand.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Agreed. It's also often a matter of being able to distinguish the baby from the proverbial bathwater. I haven't found a book yet (certainly not Frazer's) that I competely agreed with. But that doesn't negate the valid and valuable information a given book does contain.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
It's tough, isn't it Will CPT. A lot of the time, we are not much bothered about controversial debates between A and B over some esoteric subject. For example, ley lines. I've met many people with total faith in the existence of ley lines. It is a kind of religion for them. I don't even like to attack their views, because if it's harmless and keeps them happy, why not ?
But if they ask my position, I have to explain I can't accept or believe. The evidence is illusory. You draw *any* straight line on a map (especially for a densely populated place like UK, maybe different in US or Australia) and it's impossible *not* to connect significant archaeological sites.
But sometimes it can be incredibly hard, if it's a matter of life or death, even one's own. I've been in that position. Do I believe this guy or that guy ?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Of course, anyone who tries to remain rational and reasonable is led to admit, in the end, that certainty is elusive and ephemeral at best. Whereas zealots of any stripe are champions of certainty--a highly seductive quality. And a misapprehension is more dangerous to the degree of truth it contains.
Live precariously--anything else is just a pretense.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Ha,ha, yes, Will CPT, well, we can agree on that last bit, "live precariously"...I learned that one the hard way alright
It was amazing to discover that I could let go and stop trying 'to get' and found whatever I needed was already here, or turned up just when It was wanted. I live more precariously than anyone else I know, it's a great way to be
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
Never tired, eh Will? Yeah...
(to the tune of Woody Guthrie's "Never Tire of the Road")
Never tire of the tunes,
Never tire of a mighty session,
Never tire of the ways of the craic,
Down at the pub is a-calling me...
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning to Play This Music by Playing the Tunes
LOL, Ian, that's great! Another tee-shirt for Reverend.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will Harmon