The Session >> Discussions >> Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Comments
Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Friends of the dark slender boy, I come to you with this question: honestly, even if you're an accomplished musician do you really feel you play well after more than a pint/hr? I ask because I love beer in a social setting as much as anyone. But finally I realized that alcohol really affected my playing [not in a good way] and I'd rather play well for the sake of the music. So I've sadly given it up and now drink ginger ale or some such. Also, I've noticed that while REALLY good [pro] musicians can often carry on playing relatively decently even after a few pints [or joints, or both], sadly those of us in the middle realm do not do so well [although we often think we do]. One session in particular I'm thinking of -- where middling players' performance in session after a pint or two is unlistenable. In other words, the music suffers. I personally feel I now play much better in public sessions without the booze and I do it for the music making. I just wish I could do both, but I can't. Was wondering what others experiences are in this regard? Can good players deal with booze better in a session setting vs. beginner/intermediates? Should one wait until one is a much more grounded player before hitting the pints too heavily?
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Booze gives you great confidence to play badly and not be in the least bit embarrassed. It encourages all sorts of people to play in public who would otherwise not even dream of it. I gave up alcohol 4 years ago and have not performed in public since! As for joints, yes indeed, a nice roast of sirloin is just the ticket.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Perhaps you should practice with a few drinks in you - OK, I'm not really suggesting such a thing, but..... there is a thing called state dependent memory, which can come in to play when recalling tunes; learn a tune with a few drinks in you at a session, and you might not remember it until you've had a few drinks again. I suspect the reason you have observed good players playing well with a drink in them, is partly because they are used to doing so.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Ron
I like that. "State dependent memory" ....spoken like a true cognitive psycholgist! ;) r u one? But yes, I sense what you mean...there is that balance where booze relaxes you and perhaps helps you get into the zone so that you loose "nerves" and in fact do play better. I only found that [usually] I played worse because the booze actually made me sloppy and that would induce nerves and clenching up on the fiddle etc.. But also, perhaps, as practice in music makes you more adept at performing the same could be said for pints? One plays to drink and drinks to play....?
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I find it be just like bowling.
You start bowling, you're OK. You have a beer, you get better. You have a couple more, now you're really cooking.
BUT! There's that line you will cross when you've had just one too many. That magical plateau you've reached where every ball can't miss is gone, as quickly as it appeared, and soon you're rolling gutter balls and chucking the thing into the next person's lane. It's time to pack it in and head on home.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Some people can and I think it has to do with what Ron P said. They're used to doing so. Also, they have been playing for years and years and a certain amount of technique/muscle memory comes through anyway, drunk or not. So, yes, I think it has to do with how grounded you are.
I've only been playing for about 13 yrs, mind you, but what I've noticed is this. I used to feel that without at least one pint in me I would be too nervous to play. The booze helped me focus a bit better. Now I finally seem to be getting the hang of "letting the music play itself" naturally. Not always, but it's happening more and more without the aid of a pint. Once I start playing (or getting played!) I can kind of zone out and put the nervousness aside. This doesn't mean I don't still get distracted and lose the tune at times. But I can definitely see progress. So now, I usually just have iced tea or water when I'm playing out.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Personally I find that a little bit of beer loosens me up a bit and makes the music-playing even more fun, but I agree that too much of it makes my fingers become rather sloppy. The last gig I was at I sipped at just one pint of beer over the course of the two hours we were scheduled for and I played great the entire time without feeling too intoxicated or sloppy. I think if you want to enjoy the social pleasures of drinking beer while at a gig or session, the trick is just to alter your routine intake of it; instead of a pint an hour, a pint every two hours so your body has time to process it before your brain cells are all bumping into each other.
Ron P's idea is also rather interesting, might be something to try.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
SWFL - I used to find the same 'plateau effect' when I used to play league darts - got better up to about 2 pints, then plateau till 4-5 then... oh dear, the wheels start to fall off!
Playing fiddle it's much the same but the plateau is shorter for fast reels, and longer for airs I know well - confirmed by listening to snippets of recordings made (not by me) when I knew I'd "had a few"!
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
There was an interesting hypothesis put forward on this site some time back. In a nutshell, it said that you'd be OK if you started playing *before* or at the same time as you started drinking, but not if you started playing with a few already "on board". Some truth in that I think.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Some people reckon that if revise whilst p*ssed, you have to take your exam p*ssed to remember those facts.
Do we all have tunes that we learned whilst we were p*ssed, and can only remember/play them when p*ssed?
I guess a lot of singers learn their songs when p*ssed as they always sing them when p*ssed.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yep, domnull, that's it for me in a nutshell. If I get my playing warmed up before the alcohol kicks in, I have a much greater chance of playing well while I'm drinking. But if that buzz is going, I pretty much never warm up. I have noticed that the more experienced I get at playing, the longer I can play before that line gets crossed, too. But sessioning isn't all about the music, and many of my best session memories include a several pints and a whiskey or two.
And SWFL, didn't know that you were a bowler! We'll have to make the rendezvous into a 3 day Philoso-Trad-Bowling fest! (But we'll have to do it here, cuz I probably can't carry 60 lbs of bowling balls AND a banjo onto a plane)
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
While it's true that many of us fair to middling players play like sh**te with or without a pint or two, there isn't much incentive for a pub owner to let us play if we don't support the bar.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
McCracken:
I think in Canada it's ok to possess grass for personal use...not sure what the quantities are. That's not "illegal"...in fact, in Toronto there's a store/restaurant in Kensington Market where people go and shop/eat and smoke quite opening [grass] in the back. It's not quite blantantly advertised but it isn't hidden either. On the university campus where I work people smoke dope openly and also, apparently, throughout much of Toronto if my nose doesn't deceive me. Nobody's smoking dope openly at sessions since Toronto is "smoke free"...although the pollution is terrible. Nice irony there.
Boxielady: I agree with you. Which is why bars charge $2.50 even for a coke or gingerale. So I'm still supporting them.
Yes, I think warm up is important and that as a fiddle player especially I can cope with a slow pint over two hours much better if warmed up. Like someone mentioned above...often it's the "fumbling" of tunes or flubbing a passage here and there that the booze seems to bring on. But if warmed up that seems to happen less.
And yet it seems as if some really high end players [there are several in Toronto] can tolerate it pretty well...but, as said, perhaps the tunes are more ingrained in motor memory so they don't need to be so "conscious". Interesting.
I also notice however that one certain high end fiddle player who is known worldwide [no name dropping] and lives here does NOT drink much if at all while playing but saves it for later after sessions have wound down or he's played his fill.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
OK Rev, Summer in Colorado it is. Tell Swami wolfbird. Does this qualify as a religious trip if I'm hanging out with a Reverend and a Swami?
Even worse, I'm originally from New England where they do that candlepin bowling, ever seen that crazy stuff? I'm fluent in both bowling languages though.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I've seen the staff from a regular session here in Teedot ask the pot smoking musicians to move down the footpath because they were blocking the front door while the punters were trying to come in. It can be a little off putting when three quarters of the session gets up to "stretch their legs" and then they come back in 15 minutes later absolutely reeking of grass. Then of course the usual cliches mount up. "Jeez, that's a great tune, we haven't played that in ages" "Ummm, we just played it 20 minutes ago before you went out." Another beaut is "Hey, those two tunes go really well together we should play it like that more often" "Ummm, those tunes have been played together here for the last ten years". You get the drift. Personally I don't care what people get up to in their spare time but I think this kind of overt behaviour, much like the slobbery session hooligans in Willie Week Miltown Malbay or Galway is of no service to the tradition.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
SWFL, never seen that stuff - crazy... So you roll your first ball slowly to knock down some pins, and then blow the second ball through the carnage to take the rest down?
Lots of guest room in my spacious house... any time you wanna visit, you let me know...
Oh, and back to the topic at hand, an extremely good player that I know isn't comfortable performing if he hasn't had enough to drink - same with sessions (but I think that's so he doesn't mind stooping to our level as much)
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
You got it Rev, they just leave all the downed pins right there! Sometimes it helps, sometimes, they act as a shield for the other pins, fouling up your whole process...well, along with the beer, of course. (last phrase brought to you by the thread continuity committee)
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Drink...the curse of Irish Music and the downfall of many good musicians. Look at photos of musicians through the ages. Chances are there will be a few pints of the black stuff lurking somewhere in the photo. I love a few pints when I'm playing, it's a bit like a crutch really, but a few pints is enough. God, I've played with some 'drunks' in various bands and at different sessions over the years and listened while some dick head came out with "He plays better when he's had a few" Few meaning four and upwards. No he doesn't, he's crap, he becomes unbearable to listen to, and becomes a liability and annoying. When that happens I'm gone at the first opportunity.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
one thing i notice with some musicians, is once they get a little alcohol, they start playing stuff that their often too shy to do, like certain tunes and ornaments, it just gives them that little bit of confidence they need, however, this is just a small amount of alcohol, and with a small amount of people!!
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
mtodd, I never realized how comfortable we are in Canada with respect to weed! That may explain the new Olympic bunny suits, Stephane Dion, hours and hours of curling on television, rasin drink, and putting Don Cherry on the $5 bill.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Ah, grego, you're in Calgary, see. Drop by my neighbourhood in East Vancouver sometime, where I often head to the park with an ocarina on a sunny morning. There I've had the following conversation, on more than one occasion, with more than one different stranger:
Stranger: Man, that is like SO COOL! What's that thing you're playing? Is it like some kind of a flute?
Me: It's an ocarina.
Stranger: How does it work?
Me (demonstrates for a bit, playing a scale with exaggerated finger movements, then a simple tune)
Stranger: Holy sh1t! You're really good! Play something else!
Me: Thanks. Here - (plays something else)
Stranger: Holy f*cking sh!t! That's awesome! How many songs do you know?
Me: Mmmm..around 20 or 30, I guess.
Stranger: Kickass! Man! That is like the coolest thing EVER! (pauses, squints at me) Do you want some weed?
Granted, when this happened I was dressed entirely in hemp, had ridden my electric bike to the park, and my hair wasn't tied back. People make all sorts of assumptions, I tell ya. Anyway, this gave rise to one of a small handful of tunes I've composed, a reel I named Doobies Before Breakfast.
Anyway, topic: I don't myself drink, and dejectedly noted some time ago that not only am I never going to play nearly as well as Ashley MacIsaac - I've long been at peace with this fact - but that I am never even going to play nearly as well as *Ashley MacIsaac on acid*. Ayiiee.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
There is a danger that this kind of thread sinks to mere sanctimonious proselytising. So I'll limit my response to the personal.
I like a diddle when I've had a few. Few pints, and/or a bit of a smoke. Someone above mentioned social drinking, and that perhaps you shouldn't mix your social drinking with your music making. I just can't seem to go with this at all. I just can't seem to grasp the concept that playing diddley music down the pub with your mates could be anything other than socialising with your mates. I just can't seem to grasp the idea that just because you're socialising includes playing tunes, you should re-brand your socialising as a sober affair.
However, over the last six months or so I've been limiting myself to just a couple of pints at the beginning of the evening and then water for the next few hours. Purely practical. When I am woken after my usual diddley night at 7.00am ish I have my two kids for the whole day. And there is nothing in the world more hopeless than attempting to spend a whole day in the company of a 1 year old and a 4 year old while nursing a hangover.
So what's the difference from when I'd usually be getting a little tanked up? The only real difference in my playing is stamina. Certainly not skill, or accuracy, or inventiveness or choice of tunes or ability to pick up tunes and/or retrieve tunes. Sometimes, coming to the end of an evening, I'll find myself a little out of touch with the banter, which is a shame, but not with the music.
The biggest difference though is my tolerance for eedgits. We've always liked to think we had a zero tolerance, but since I've been "aff it", I've been a little more of a zealous enforcer. Before, I found it easier to laugh the eedgits off. But now I have more confidence to nip such stuff in the bud much quicker. My mates are much pleased with this, of course.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Amazingly, I find myself to be apparently considerably older than Michael here. My bloody kids are in their late 20s already. I take full advantage of the free beer at our regular do and find it best to avoid awkward stuff after about 10.45. If we go further afield and it's my turn to drive I'll have a quick pint very early on then drink watery liquids thereafter. I think I play better on such evenings and I have just as much fun, but it don't stop me from hitting the beer big-time next time we're on home ground and I'm not driving.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Back in the '70s when I was playing rock music was to just keep 2 beers behind the crowd. As long as they were drunker than me we all thought I sounded good. Then I listened to the recordings.............
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
About "state dependent memory"...I remember reading a study that found that anything that goes into one's memory carries a marker or tag which records the blood alcohol level, and that maximum retrieval occurs when the blood alcohol level is the same.
That explains the many people I've encountered over the years that can play extremely well when so drunk that they could barely stand up, but could not remember tunes nor play as well sober. They learned their technique and repertoire drunk, so they play best drunk.
Likewise I've done all my learning sober so if I have just a pint or two my playing goes off.
That's when the trouble comes: when people who have learned their technique and repertoire sober attempt to play when drunk.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Re 'state dependent memory'
"The particular form of learning in question, is then said to be: state dependent (sine qua non). The most familiar example from everyday life, is intoxication. Something learned, said, or done in that state may not be recalled at all, or only in part, when sober. However, get drunk again, and it all comes flooding back"
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Thank goodness I learned my music the real way, where you played if you wished and had a drink if you so desired. I make sure to avoid these session gurus.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Ah Steve, quit yer gloating. Twenties you say? I got a ways to go yet.
If anyone thinks I'm being preachy above with the Dad and hangovers comment, go ahead and get yourself wasted and then wake up at the crack of dawn to the chorus of "Dad, we're hungry!!!" and let me know how that works out for ya. I'm just saying. [shrug]
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
>>I remember reading a study that found that anything that goes into one's memory carries a marker or tag which records the blood alcohol level...
Could you expand on that please. Goes into "memory" where and by which means? And what is the tag? Is it a chemical marker? Any chance you could recall the paper?
I gave up alcohol nearly 2 years ago. Well near enough anyway. A family member had just died as a result of long-term alcohol abuse. I decided I was not going to take the chance and follow in his footsteps. I don't think I miss it, and I go out to sessions and play without a drink in me. There's been maybe half a dozen occasions max during that period when I have had some drinks. All it does is make me light headed, kind of relaxed (but also wired) and mildly elated for a couple of hours, then I wake up the next day feeling headachey and wobbly and generally dire all day, so it's not worth it for me. It never improved my playing when I did drink, and I think I play with more "power", better intonation and better rhythm now.
So that's my contribution to this thread.
I spent an awful lot of time (and money) in pubs and at parties for about 20 years. For about 7 years, a guy I played with happened to be a dope dealer, so there was always free hash and grass. The landlords of pubs would keep sending over free drinks, folks would buy us drinks without asking. I just got used to coping with enormous quantities. I also got to see numerous alcoholics and casualties.
Time came when the only period of the 24 hours when I felt good was after the first drink. I tried to stop a couple of times, lasted a week or a month. I had the choice. Pull out, or keep on. I was walking across the road to my house alone in the early hours, after a crappy evening listening to stupid drunks and potheads arguing and falling over. I stood five minutes in the middle of the road and made my decision.
It was *really* hard to stop. Took eighteen months before I had a day without getting a pang that said 'what you really need is a drink'. Then I was free.
Don't mean to sound self-righteous, but IMO now, I see alcohol as nasty, poisonous, treacherous stuff. It can make you feel good, but it's a deal with the devil.
If you can handle pot as a sacred plant for special times, I think it can show you a lot. People who smoke all the time tend to get to be rather boring, IMO. Maybe this is provocative and controversial, but I think it would probably everybody should take LSD, or mushrooms, or ayahuasca, or salvia, or mescaline, just the once. The way Aldous Huxley explained, in 'Doors of Perception' and elsewhere. To get a really deep experience of what 'being' is.
But, of course, what I think is inconsequential and irrelevant. The politicians and police aren't going to ask my advice on drug laws, and the kids are going to take whatever they to take, regardless of me, or the politicians and police. There's a lot of drugs I never got around to, heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, MDMA, and plenty of others, so i don't have an educated view on them.
Nowadays, I like my consciousness exactly as it is. I enjoy being me through the whole 24 hours, no problem.
I don't really care what anybody else takes. I suspect that everyone has the basic right to put whatever chemicals they wish into their own body. I get more wound up about all the noxious substances that corporations put into our food without telling us than about illegal drug use or folks seeking refuge or pleasure in chemicals that they like.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Was that repeated remark aimed at my comments, llig ?
sanctimonious, def. 'feigned piety'
proselytise, def. 'attempt to induce someone to a different POV'.
As far as I know, there has never been a soceity or culture which didn't use chemicals to alter consciousness. It seems a rather basic human characteristic. I was just speaking about my own experience and the conclusions I drew. I really don't care what other people take, it's their own responsibility, not mine.
With regard to the topic, as some others have commented, some people enjoy a few drinks and can play well or better. But there's a tipping point, where the alcohol starts to intrude.
In my teens, I met Derroll Adams several times and hung around with him. A most remarkable man, and amazing singer and banjo player. The change from sober to drunk was distressing to watch, sort of Jekyll and Hyde transition.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Hmm. I was listening to a government minister saying that they are going to disregard the advice of the experts and reclassify cannabis to 'send out a signal' to young people.
Seems to me, the main message that sends out is that politicians are unprincipled, mendacious and hypocritical, and have a deluded opinion of themselves. I never met anyone ever who smoked or didn't smoke because of what a government minister had said.
I take your point, llig, about preaching. I can think of dozens of cases where concerned individuals have tried to persuade someone that their drug and/or alcohol habit was bad, and it's usually been a complete waste of breath. I think it has to be left to personal choice, similar to being a vegetarian or not.
Probably, if the Govt. wants kids not to smoke dope, best way would be to make it compulsory, then they'd all find ways to avoid doing it
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Incidentally, I recall a 17 year old lad who called by here, for some reason, a few years back. We got into conversation, and he asked me if I wanted any drugs, so I asked what could he get, and the list was impressive, ketamine, crack, speed, heroin, ecstasy, etc, etc, all within an hour of delivery, and this in a tiny remote rural village. I declined the offer, but it does say something about contemporary culture. Of course, that lad knew absolutely nothing of the pharmacology or long term hazards of any of the substances, just the prices. I'm all in favour of honest education about all drugs, including those prescribed by doctors, and including alcohol, so that people know what's what. I've known more than one person whose life got wrecked by legal prescription medicine, but that's another issue.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Don't know precisely how much weight to give that site and the studies, KML, because quite recently there was radio discussion where the evidence was contested by people who seemed to know what they were talking about.
However, even if those risks are correct, the way I see it, many pleasurable activities are dangerous, for example, rock climbing, horse riding, etc., and loads of people take massive risks everyday, fishermen, soldiers, miners, etc. and there's none of the nonsense and hysteria that usually accompanies conversations about drugs.
Personally, I believe that mind expanding drugs, are, or can be, a good thing. But you need to do some research first and know something about what you're doing, and be very careful, because there are risks. I've said this to numerous folks who've asked my advice. Mostly, I've been ignored
I really don't like the responsibility of telling others what they should or shouldn't do, but if anybody asked me if they should take psychedelics, my preferred option would be, that there are safer, more sensible, routes to the very same insights.
But, realistically, if drugs are available and someone's set upon trying them, they're probably not interested in my advice that the slow lane is safer and more reliable in the long term. I know this, because, at times in my life, everyone I've known, maybe 150 individuals, was taking pot and booze and other stuff everyday, like it was just 'normal'. Some did get badly messed up, and I was often asked for my opinion and help.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
"I believe, if we take habitual drunkards as a class, their heads
and their hearts will bear an advantageous comparison with those
of any other class. There seems ever to have been a proneness in
the brilliant and warm-blooded to fall into this vice." Abraham Lincoln
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I've done both a fair bit of rock climbing and a fair bit of dope in the past (oh.. and come think of it, schizophrenia research, almost forgot that). I'd rather run the risk of breaking my arm (the chances of which are very slight if you're roped up properly, and got good protection in) than run the risk of developing schizophrenia any day. The group which this latest group of studies, headed by Robin Murray, are targetting, is young teenagers, whose brains are still developing. The last thing they need is so-called "mind expanding" drugs to interfere with where particular neurons are sending out dendrites to. I haven't a clue which radio program you were referring to, but are you sure that is as objective an assessment of this situation as a scientific study with statistically significant cohorts and controls?
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I didn't give full attention to that programme or note the speakers. It may have been Colin Blakemore (see links)
Why did you take precautions when you climbed, KML ? I mean, if you wanted to avoid all risk, safer to stay in your bedroom. Obviously, your'e prepared to take some risk in tandem with the rewards.
I assume you didn't become schizophrenic from cannabis. Tell people about the risk (whatever it may be) so they can make an informed decision,IMO.
What I find ridiculous is the irrationality that always appears when the word 'drugs' is mentioned. Food and beverage companies have been putting E number additives and trans fats and pesticide residues into food that children eat for decades, and the dose them with Ritalin, etc.
Please don't misunderstand my position. I'm not saying I'd want any child to smoke tobacco or pot or sniff glue or eat food that's full of crap, too much salt, sugar, synthetic dyes, or anything like that. Thing is, a lot do these things, and a lot of adults havn't a clue themselves, and drink alcohol way over the danger limit.
"We should take very seriously the growing evidence of a link between cannabis smoking and psychosis. But this is still in the realm of correlation rather than causation. Cigarette-smoking and drinking are also very high among young people heading for schizophrenia, but no one has suggested that they cause psychosis. And what of the alarming stories of horrifyingly powerful 'skunk'? Some newspapers have told us that the level of THC, the active ingredient, in street cannabis today is 20 or 30 times higher than 10 years ago. That would be rather surprising, given that THC content was 7 per cent on average in 1995.
In reality, two studies, due to be published later this year, concluded that the average THC content has doubled. This might be a cause for some concern, but what we don't know is whether this has affected the amount of cannabis that users smoke. "
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
About schizophrenia - there's so much stigma and fear about mental illness that it's almost as difficult to discuss as drugs or God or similar emotive topics.
If you actually study the history of psychiatry over the last two or three centuries, the record is deeply shocking. As much as anything, it's been a tool for social control, keeping dissidents and misfits under control, and absolutely appalling things have been inflicted upon people in the name of 'cureing' them.
The way I see it, 'normal' just means average. Half the population above the line, half below. It doesn't tell us anything about what 'sanity' is or means. But you can be certified insane purely because your behaviour doesn't fit the norm, and receive electro convulsive 'therapy' (which damages the brain) and be forced to take powerful drugs (which damage the brain) and be labelled as 'mad', which means you get ostracized, just because a psychiatrist claims to see symptoms of some pathology that's described in the text book.
Yesterday, you were standing up for gays in Jamaica, KML. But it's only a few years since American psychiatry classified homosexuality as a mental disease, to be treated with all kinds of mediaval practices, like lobotomy. And in the USSR, to disagree with the government was a mental illness requiring treatment.
I would like to see a lot more understanding for folks who have breakdowns or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or whatever. It's a common thing, I think one in four at some time in their lives. Personally, I think it can be a very positive experience, if it's looked at from a different paradigm to the standard old fashioned orthodoxy.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yes, I've heard that type of "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" analysis of mental illness and psychosis before, the stigma of society and so on. And to a certain extent that is correct. But it is also dangerous, not least to people with schizophrenia. Apart from very debilitating symptoms such as hearing voices, other hallucinations, delusions, avolition, disordered thought and sometimes catatonia, severe depression (endogenous depression, not JUST being depressed about having SCZ) and suicidal thoughts are not uncommon among people with SCZ. I've never had it, but somehow I don't think that can possibly be a positive experience. Sorry, that's just me.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Taking your thinking to its logical conclusion, do you think it would be a positive experience to have Alzheimer's Disease or Parkinson's?
These are more easily characterised diagnostically: AD by prevalence of plaques and tangles in the hippocampus and neocortex; PD by loss of substantia nigra in the brain stem. So these are neuropathological hallmarks. They thus elicit sympathy, not stigmatisation, from society. SCZ does not have such a clearly defined pathology. So maybe that's why some "liberally" minded people may think it can be a positive experience, thinking it is "just" a "state of mind" rather than a characterisable disease. That's the only justification I can think of for you making such platitudinous statements.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I don't think I take exactly the position that you are suggesting, KML.
There was a fashionable extreme anti-psychiatry movement in the 1970-80's, but things have moved a long way since then.
You didn't see this on tv I assume ? remarkable film.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Hey, 'platitudinous' is unwarranted !
I'm serious. Unlike alzheimer's or parkinson's, people can go into a mental illness (it could be considered differently, e.g. a mental or spiritual re-arrangement) and come out of it again, and come out being richer, deeper, stronger, individuals than before. Honest with themselves, honest with other people.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I think I understand what you saying about the "positive" experience. I have experienced depression, have highs and lows. My question for my doctor and therapist has been "Do I sacrifice the highs to alleviate the lows?" My answer, with their support has been, "no." There is a book that I read a long time ago called "The Gift of the Dark Angel," it addresses some of these issues.
I don't think I would recommend my route to those suffering from more serious cases, it's up to them and their doctors to find what's best.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Well, wyogal, I guess that in an ideal, perfect, world, there'd be no suffering, no diseases, no AIDS or cancer or post-traumatic stress disorder. But the funny thing is, most of the really nice, wise people I ever met have been through all kinds of hardships and tragedies, and the ones who've had an easy ride tend to be shallow, silly, superficial.
Getting back to folks taking drink or drugs, I think one of the reasons is because they cannot cope with the highs and lows. But it's counter productive. If you take a drink every time you feel down, you never learn better ways, and never face what's really going on.
There's a woman I know well who had a massive breakdown after quite a lot of drug usage, and was diagnosed bi polar. A long time ago. She's almost always buzzing, gets 10 times as much done as most people. I told her, she seemed very speedy to me. She seemed fraught by the comment, as if it was a criticism of fault, because she was afraid of seeming 'crazy'. I told her, if that's your nature, then be it, it's wonderful to have so much energy. Wish I did.
But then she hits a few days of being down, when life seems pointless. She's learned to understand the cycle. She just stays in the house, curls up with a book, thinks about stuff.
In my estimation, if you can keep yourself fed, clean, pay the bills, etc, so you don't burden someone else with looking after you, that's good enough, that's 'sane'. I think it's the mainstream culture and it's values that is crazy and needs changing...but that's another thread
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I wasn't talking about KIDZ, llig well, maybe adolescents.
Actually, I had in mind some drug taking punks with mohicans and rings in their noses and all that stuff, all bravado and swagger, and yet when you get to know them, they're scared, insecure and worried about going mad...
This is the guy. I like his take on this whole mental thing...a big step forward, IMO
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yeah, I think it's terrible how we treat people now who hear voices. We should be cannonising them like they did in the old days instead of trying to cure them.
IMO all doctors and anyone concerned about 'mental illness' would find it illuminating, and for the general public it might give a better understanding of the problems.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
OK, maybe platitudinous was harsh. Apologies if it stung. It just seemed that you were dismissive of some of the real suffering people with psychiatric illness go through, but you have explained it in depth a bit more now. There are now recognised anatomical correlates in SCZ and BPD (bipolar disease) - I co-authored a few. So maybe those conditions will in future be treated with less popular stigma. The point is, i would not wish to encourage younger teenagers and adolescents (ages 12-18) to smoke weed as there is a 40% or whatever increase in risk of them developing SCZ later on, stigmatised or not. Also, I DON'T think you need to suffer all your life to be good, or interesting. That just seems to me like trying to salvage some justification out of not playing the cards you were dealt with very well. But maybe that's just me being cynical.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I wasn't STUNG, Danny ! Just a bit frustrated that you might think I take this stuff in a flippant or lackadaisical manner.
I also wouldn't recommend young people or anyone to smoke weed. But it's a pointless statement. I'm not in a position to change what anybody does.
And I never said that anyone needs to 'suffer all their life to be good or interesting'.....but suffering afflicts people uninvited and unavoidably. My point is, that it can be very positive. It doesn't have to be seen as some terrible misfortune to be feared. It's a challenge, and if it's overcome, that's a triumph for the individual.
Sometimes suffering is intolerable, breaks people, destroys them. But we all get defeated by death in the end, whatever. That's another thread really, but that's why I reject some of the ideas that have turned up recently. IMO, religion is good. Science is no comfort, neither is existentialism, if your wife gets breast cancer, or your child gets abducted or you crash your car and get paraplegic. That kind of suffering or crisis is when a person needs some sort of spiritual resources, IMO.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Tossing in something that might (or not) be relevant to the several topics threading through this thread:
Addicitions and disorders all come in a range of intensity and a range of frequency. At the lower end of both scales, it becomes difficult or impossible to differentiate between "normal" and abnormal. But as you go up the scale in intensity and/or frequency, life grows more problematic for whoever's experiencing the symptoms.
At the mild end of things, not everyone needs or wants to be "cured" of their difference. Science should make us smarter. As the father of a son who's on the very high functioning autism spectrum, I hope there's a trend toward accepting some milder issues as within the range of the human norm, while we work toward treatment for more severe issues.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Religion is the husk of the faithless. Who said that? It's a good one.
Wolfbird, the only spirituallity I need is knowing the atoms in my body have been around since the beginning, and they be bonding in new ways long after I'm gone.
Science is the source of genuine wonder and awe--I don't need any more comfort than that wonder and awe provides.
Some people look up at the stars and feel impossibly insignificant, so they grasp at straw gods. Others look at the stars and realize they are--to the very stuff of their molecular being--part of it all, inseparably part of all existence.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Not sure what you mean, llig.
Wasn't I saying that not all suffering (accidents, illness, failure, loss, etc.) can be overcome ? But even if you do overcome suffering, you're still going to die. That put's it into proportion, no ? I don't find the idea of death depressing. Just reminds me to get on with things, make good use of the time, etc.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Seems you (and grego) misunderstand my drift, KML
I'm not against science, or disparaging it's achievements, or what it has produced that reduces suffering (e.g. anaesthetics)
But if you're awake at night and thinking of a friend who took their own life, thinking about chemical formulae or Monty Python isn't the sort of thing that makes sense of life or provides answers. All religions have specialized in that area for millennia.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Not sure what this says about me, but I find a lot of spiritual solace in humor. Often, when things seem their darkest for me, spirituality fails when "SPAM!" succeeds.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I guess we are all different, SWFL, and pleased that you are abnormal and I agree, a good laugh is a wonderful thing, (and something for which science has no explanation).
Maybe I caused confusion by giving examples. I just meant that set backs and tragedies test a person in many ways. It can be anything really, like failing to get the job you wanted, or marriage break up, or business goes bust, or whatever.
Existentialism ( from which Monty Python draws it's view of life) just leaves us as meaningless entities in an absurd Universe.
The old mechanistic attitude that the medical profession has, mostly, sees us as biological machines, that can be adjusted chemically, like tinkering with a motor car engine.
Lots of people take that sort of philosophy for granted, even if they are not fully conscious of the beliefs and how they arose historically and culturally.
I don't expect, or even want, anybody to change their ideas to match mine. Just that, when I've hit hard times, I found spiritual resources which got me through.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
For sure wolfbird, I totally understand. I think sometimes my soul need a humourous jump start to reconnect to the spiritual side of things. Then I can be nice and helpful to others and actually feel like I'm spiritually accomplishing something again.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Nope, sorry. When I lay awake at night pondering the imponderables, I prefer to hypothesize, test, assess, synthesize, and hypothesize anew until I fall asleep. Better that than rely on thousands year old childish myths made up by people who believed the world was flat, disease was caused by impeity, and stoning was neither cruel nor unusual punishment for even minor transgressions.
Put it in more prosaic terms: When I'm 30,000 feet above the ground, hurtling along at 500 miles per hour, sipping my ginger ale and gnoshing on peanuts, and we hit a spot of turbulence, I notice some people bargaining with their gods to keep the plane in the air. Given how many millions of people over the centuries have perished in the name of religion, I prefer to put my faith in the Bernouli effect.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Well, Will CPT, that's your portrayal of what the word religion means. I had to use the word because there isn't another to cover the territory, which is vast.
You present a caricature which only touches upon a few negative aspects of one or two brands of religion. Not all myths are childish, not all religions include stoning to death, etc. There are positive aspects to all religions, which is why they are still around.
But,I don't think this thread can stand a discussion on comparative religion, so I'm going to leave it there, if I may.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
...oh yes, and when I say 'spiritual' (lest I be mistaken) I mean playing in sessions with friends, being a father to my sons, helping little old ladies cross the street (I live in Florida, do you have any idea how many old ladies are out walking around in traffic?), and so on.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Actually, I'm with Wolf on this one. Religion (which isn't a very good word to describe any personal spiritual experience) to be truly meaningful has to begin with what you actually experience yourself. As I said at the beginning of the "Irrelevance" thread, you *are* at the centre of the universe as you perceive it. Hinduism starts with this deliberately childlike perception of ones place in the universe and grows out from there. Western reductionist-Greek-philosophy- thinking religions tell you that god is some big daddy in the sky, encouraging schism and division right from the start. So it's no wonder that Will has a jaundiced view of these myth-peddlar religions.
Anyway. What will we talk about now? Music? Seems somewhat pedestrian after all that lot........
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
How many are alive, well, happy and prospering because of religion.
How many people have been kept away from mind destroying substances because of the teaching of their religion?
It doesn't seem all bad. What's messed up is the constant pointing at those who, throughout history, have perverted religion as examples of religious people.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Interesting thread.
I guess all I have to add is that the theory that drug use and mental illness (a loaded term but I'll use it here for the sake of brevity) are connected isn't exactly cutting edge. It's kind of a nineteenth century idea packaged in twenty-first science. If you read the writing of nineteenth century doctors postulating on the causes of insanity, excessive drink comes up frequently, with detailed medical explanations for why. Their medical constructs could explain this for them as well as ours do. Which is to say, well enough for some in the professional community but not so well for others. As you might expect, these claims were contested. But the Edinburgh medical school anyway seemed to teach a model describing lunacy as a brain disease in part caused by heredity, alcohol as well as assorted other "moral" failings.
This was interesting when insanity defense cases got to court, especially after 1843, as judges wanted to know if the defendant knew the difference between right and wrong. Many psychiatrists didn't like that criteria because they felt there was a species of insanity wherein the defendant knew what he did was wrong or illegal or whatever, but did it anyway because he suffered from what they called "moral insanity."
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I should add that I use terms like "insanity" and "lunacy" because that's what early modern medicine as well as lay terminology used. I'm aware that it's regarded as somewhat offensive now. But if I'm talking about historical stuff, that's what I use (as is pretty common practice for historians of psychiatry). Not meant to be offensive.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Religion is indeed a very bad word with which to describe any personal spiritual experience. The religious most certainly do not have the monopoly the spiritual. An atheist has just as much right to be spirited ... for example, to play a tune with spirit. Religion is an entirely different thing, it's about spooks and fairy stories and deities and intelligent design and when you die you don't actually die. et-cetera
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
LOL, grego, I used Bernouli effect as shorthand for the laws of physics. Yes, I'd rather put my faith in a system of thinking that encourages us to revise our understanding of reality as we learn new ideas and develop new tools for exploring that reality. Reigious faith encourages only adherence to old fables poorly told, and allows revision only when in its own favor, or when forced by irrefutable evidence to do so.
No, Danny, I'm not ignorant of Hinduism or Buddhism or Jain Dharma of Islam. But every religion is a belief system with few if any testable precepts. What is offered without proof of any testable kind can readily be dismissed--no justification is needed for not believing.
Science too is a human construct, and so has its own foibles. But it does a far better job at explaining reality as we experience it than any of the old myths that took root before the age of reason and the scientific method.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
For anyone interested in the issues that arise when the supposedly incompatible worldviews or paradigms of atheistic science and of religion (or maybe that should read 'spiritual experiences' to avoid the baggage and prejudice that the word 'religion' carries) clash or overlap, there's a fascinating archive here where scientists talk about the topic.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I've just had a look at that website, and there is absolutly no proof that any scientists submitted any of those stories. As a matter of fact, many of them seem to be written in the exact same style as the designer of the website. Mmm. Not that I'm in the least sceptical or anything.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Just re-read this whole thread, and gave it a bit of thought.
I wouldn't want anything I said to be taken as encouraging anybody to take anything, because I don't want to be a cause of any harm. My advice for anybody who takes drugs, or has a problem with alcohol or drugs, or is tempted to try, or is worried about someone else, etc...get educated ! There's no excuse. All the classic literature is readily availabe here, you only need to be able to read, and then make your own judgements.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
So, what are you saying, thedon ? Someone has gone to the trouble of making them all up ? Maybe some of the submissions may be fanciful, I didn't read them all, and maybe there's no check on the credentials mentioned. Nothing wrong with being sceptical, I'm sceptical of everything, and there's loads of very dodgy stuff on the internet. But I do have some confidence in Charles Tart himself, he is a established authority in the field, and has a reputation to protect.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Tart? Sour. If he's busy "protecting his reputation," then he's not behaving like a scientist. Besides, I prefer to think for myself.
Wolfbird, "atheistic" is at least as baggage-weary as "religious," especially when you link it to "science" in one breath like that. "Atheist"--someone who doesn't believe in the unbelievable--a rather ingrown, pointless word, eh?
Here's what I believe in (a la Bull Durham):
Nyah
Cuts, rolls, and triplets articulated with clarity and verve
A nimble 60-gram pernambuco bow
Hammy's embouchure cutting skills
Well aged whiskey
Homemade apple pie
Flirting
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
You sound very Zen, Will.
Anyway, are we allowed to discuss religion , politics or football teams?
I know a good antidote to addictions, feeling in need of religion, and that big empty feeling:
Take up a sport....jogging, athletics, rock climbing, cycling, even do it competitively. Works for me.
Better still...play music.
Now why didn't someone say that before?
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
"Tart? Sour. If he's busy "protecting his reputation," then he's not behaving like a scientist."
What I meant, Will CPT, is, that, as you ought to know, if a scientist fakes the data, they risk losing their reputation.
Atheistic is a perfectly valid word. It means, as you ought to know, Will CPT, 'without a belief in God'. There are some scientists who do have a belief in God.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Pity ITM wasn't included...
"...parallel with Martinez’s research on the use of alcohol to stimulate and individual’s religious experience, Zinberg (1984) researched alcohol’s ability to increase ones sense of euphoria. Zinberg (1984) stated that alcohol speeds up an individual’s mood, either increasing depression or euphoria, in harmony with pre-existing circumstances. The setting of a music club, and type of music played would be an example of these already present conditions. Zinberg (1984) studied marijuana users as well as alcohol users, and found that many of the marijuana users began using the drug while listening to music. “Some claimed that marijuana slowed down the time sense so that they could hear and experience music more explicitly and precisely, note by note, theme by theme”
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Well, technically Atheist it comes from the greek atheos which means without god, a-without, theos-god, rather than without a "belief" in god. The word is usually used as a negative, rather than a positive. To be without god is to be an evil, damned person. Very different connotation than how you are using it. Or maybe not?
And yes, there are some scientists who believe in god. I understand it's about 3-5%, which is really an anomaly, rather than a significant proportion. Most scientists are also a-toothfairiests, a-santaclausists, and a-giantspagettimonsterists, but strangly we don't use those terms much.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
thedon, *all* words have an etymological origin and history.
I'm speaking in contemporary english, using the commonly understood meanings of the words. I'm well aware of the greek basis of atheist. The term is usually used to distinguish those who don't believe in a God from those who do, e.g. atheists, agnostics, and people with faith.
I don't accept that it carries any negative connotations, or means an evil or damned person. I've never heard it used in that sense in the UK, but maybe it is used differently wherever you are.
I agree. The majority of present day scientists are atheists or agnostics. So what ?
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I think that after many, many years research I have found that amongst myself and various colleagues around the world there seems to be the following rules. One drink over a period of time = good playing. Two? a bit dodgy. Three? there go the ears. Four? well, goodnight, I'm out of here. Five? we are in danger of loosing the session. Six? You said what to the publicans mother?
oops, I seem to have refered back to the actual question asked at the start of this thread. ;p
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
My position regarding science and religion is, with some minor quibbles, similar to that of this guy, who explains the background far more eloquently than I can
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Sorry to appear flippant wolfbird, and I don't have the time just now to check out those links. But a brief explanation is called for. Many people, including myself, object to the term atheist. It starts with the presumption of the belief in god, and then puts a negative in front of it. This does not happen with any other non belief. How many people refer to themselves as an athorist, or azuest? Or an apurpleunicornist? Belief in something that has absolutly no supportive evidence should not be the starting point. Far better to use the terms rationalist, or even humanist than the term atheist.
However, I am now to bed, and just so this thread won't be deleted by the big J because it has no relivance to ITM, I would just like to state that diddly idle, diddly iddle, diddly iddle dum.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
If it makes you happier, thedon, yes, substitute rationalist, humanist, materialist, whatever...I was making a distinction between two areas, science v. religion, so atheist seemed appropriate shorthand. Yours is the first objection to the term I've come across, and it hardly seems like a serious matter to my mind, but if it seriously bothers you, I hope it doesn't disturb your sleep.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Really? Try using the term with Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens, or most other writers on the subject. It's pretty common. Seriously. If you haven't come across this objection before, then you haven't read many "Atheists" writers, if indeed any at all. Can I suggest the above two, plus maybe A C Greyling, Michel Onfray or Sam Harris and you will find it's a very common objection.
And no, I'll sleep just fine. Thanks for your concern.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
And, hey, thedon, if the only reason why 'atheist' should be substituted is because the likes of Dawkins and Hitchens don't like it, then I'll rejoice in using the term whenever I can.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Oh dear oh dear. Enough said I think. I'm out of here.
That is probably the stupidist thing I have read in a long time.
Seriously, you have just lost all credibility. "Strawmen of their own invention" Pathetic.
Way behind the times? What, you're cutting edge?
I'm off to talk about diddly.
cheers, have a nice delusional life.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Looks like you can't win on this website. A couple of years ago, around Christmas, I took a verbal kicking from some Christian members for questioning Jesus's virgin birth and his reincarnation. Not that I cared in particular. And now here's wolf getting a pounding for suggesting there might be a god after all...or even that we're spiritual beings or something. Funny innit? As I say you can't win. Let's all just not ever post any opinions on here ever again, eh? How interesting would that be?
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
My anal attention to detail can't help but notice that the word 'atheist' *doesn't* mean not believing in God, but not believing in *a* God. That is, it is a belief that there is no God, or Gods. So, for instance, an "athorist" would still, in fact, be an "atheist".
Who is this "BRIAN" they speak of? Is he the god that is written about?
Somone told be "god" was a geezer from Catford or envorirons called "Brian".
It that true?
One have never knowingly encountered this character...
Some have said that I was sent by Brian but one says unto you, oh diddley people, he was only Brian the Baptist.
The true prophet is but to rise, the ITM Mohammed as it were,over and above your Jesus bloke like Jesus of Nazareth was to Moses (et al) and Mohammed is to Jesus!
Oh sons of Abraham rejoyce!
And may the friends of Krishna be smug...
I didn't think there were any Christians...you know, like...real Christans! left?!
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
KML, I'm not, never have, been making any claim whatsoever saying that there is, (or isn't) 'a God'.
My disdain for Dawkins and C. Hitchens (to distinguish from his brother, Peter) is because of their fundamentalist zealotry, exactly the sort of intolerant attitude that thedon demonstrates so clearly.
Those people are not 'defending science' as they claim, they are defending their own religion which I'd call scientism.
It's a religion that's just as crazy as the Creationists or similar religious fanatics. Anybody who doesn't agree with their crude 19thC reductionist materialist version of science is a heretic to be burned.
Fortunately, there are plenty of scientists, probably the majority, with a more enlightened open minded attitude.
.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
" There are several different kinds of skeptics. Some have a healthy skepticism which involves questioning new ideas, looking critically at evidence, but includes an open-mindedness and willingness to accept new ideas or evidence if the case is persuasive. I have no problem with skeptics of this kind, and this healthy skepticism is an essential part of scientific discovery. However, there is another kind of skeptic, the dogmatic skeptic or scientific fundamentalist, who is more concerned to defend a materialist ideology than to pursue scientific inquiry in an open-minded manner.
Such skeptics tend to oppose the kind of research I'm doing on principle, on the grounds that these questions should not be asked in a scientific way, and that subjects like the sense of being stared at, psychic pets, and memory in nature lie outside the scope of science. This kind of skeptic has made materialistic science into a kind of religion, and in my experience is not open to reason or evidence, although they often call themselves rationalists. In my opinion the correct approach in science is to put forward hypotheses, and to look at evidence in a rational manner, rather than rule out whole areas of inquiry and dismiss evidence out of hand because of some preconceived dogma. "
Rupert Sheldrake
IMO, Dawkins, Hitchens, et al, are the saints and gurus of SCIENTISM, an intolerant blinkered materialist ideology that denies any POV is possible other than their own. It's not science.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
'Anybody who doesn't agree with their crude 19thC reductionist materialist version of science is a heretic to be burned.'
?
are you sure that's not a bit of hyperbole,wolfbird?
i can't speak for hitchens but when i read dawkins' 'god delusion' book i'm sure there was n't any invitation to start burning anybody.
i no longer have the copy so i can't be sure.
i'm not here to argue the stylistic merits of dawkins or even what he's going on about as this thread has mutated quite enough already - but i don't think it's helpful to put words of a violent nature into someone else's mouth.
if he did write that people should be burned,then fair comment.
mind you,i do remember listening to a clergyman on the 'today' programme sometime last year opining that dawkins' book should be consigned to the flames so maybe he saw something i missed!
of course,the cleansing fire did come in handy with my banjo all those years ago...
oh,and my answer to the original poster of this thread is: yes it is - sometimes and with some people.i think...
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
biggus dave, if you read certain right wing evangelical 'Christian' fundamentalist websites, they hate Dawkins and see him as satanic (because he's a Darwinist).
And, if you read Dawkin's supporters websites, they slag off the Creationists, insulting them and their beliefs (in Intelligent Design, etc).
I don't support either side. I think both sides are pitiful and benighted.
Dawkins never misses a chance to ridicule religious beliefs. That's not science, it's propaganda, aggressively attacking other people because they don't happen to agree with you.
When I said 'burning heretics' I don't mean he wrote that in literal words, just that it's the same damn phenomena, as the Catholic Church's attitude towards non-believers during the Inquisition.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Again, if anyone is at all interested, my personal position re Science v. God, coincides very nicely with this guy's
"Science is often characterized as providing objective knowledge of the world as it exists independently of consciousness, whereas the humanities in general, and religion in particular, pertain to human experience. In this way, science is commonly viewed as being "objective," whereas religion is "subjective." In contrast to this popular idea, in this paper I shall argue that both scientific and religious truths cover a spectrum in terms of their invariance across multiple cognitive frames of reference. A highly objective truth, for instance, is one that is invariant across a wide range of cognitive frames of reference, including different modes of observation and different types of conceptual frameworks. A highly subjective truth, on the other hand, is one that is valid only for a very limited range of cognitive frames of reference. Following this model of intersubjective frames of reference, the validity of a truth-claim is tested, not in reference to some purely objective realm of existence, independent of all modes of inquiry, but in reference to multiple modes of perceptual and conceptual knowledge. With this criterion of truth, both scientific and religious modes of knowledge are seen to be inextricably embedded in human experience. Moreover, following this model, human consciousness--so long omitted from the scientific worldview--is seen to play a central role in both the natural world of science as well as the world of religious truths."
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
yes,i'm well aware of the situation between dawkins and his detractors.
i've got my thoughts too,such as they are.
but i still think we should be careful not to make incendiary comments.
and if you think that's a terrible pun...
...well.you'ld be right - and i've got plenty more...
by the way,wolfbird,not quite on topic but possibly relevant all the same - there used to be a cellist in one of the london bands who did have a severe drink problem and everyone knew it,including the conductors.
when one of the arm wavers asked him how he could still play so well when he was pi**ed the reply came:'because i practise when i'm pi**ed'.
what that adds to the sum of human knowledge i really don't know.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Well, biggus dave, perhaps I over-reacted a bit, about being told not to use a perfectly good and useful word (atheist) merely because I might offend Dawkins or Hitchens. Every time I've read or heard them, they say things that are deeply offensive to people of serious religious faith. Even though I do not myself share that (Abrahamic) faith, I respect people's right to hold their beliefs.
Dawkins arrogance and hubris does offend me. It's like he stands up beating his chest, "I'm so tough, I'm so smart, I don't need no God". Okay, fine. But not everyone is as tough and smart as Dawkins. For millions, God is central to their daily existence, and, for them, very real. What's more, they behave ethically in line with religious morality. Science has no moral code to offer. (Ok, maybe humanism does, but I don't favour humanism for a whole lot of other reasons).
People *need* a moral code that they can respect. Even if they don't stick to it, at least they know the acceptable boundaries. Just like on this site. There's limits to what is tolerable. Science cannot do that job. Religions have been doing it for thousands of years. Obviously, they are a very long way from perfect, but I see that as their important social role.
One other thing. Years ago, there was debate over Dawkins selfish gene metaphor. His arrogance and intolerance was already apparent then. As it turned out, he was wrong, and Lynn Margulis was right. To my mind, the latter is the better scientist, but she doesn't see any need to aggressively attack people who don't agree with her.
Anyways, that cellist does sound like a case of the state dependent memory, mentioned about a mile back up the page. It's not something I know much about, but it figures.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
ta for the link,wolfbird.
i quite like the old buddhist lads,mainly because they don't tend to preach at you and they don't believe in god.
well,that and the loving kindness with the compassion too.
if i were to join any club that had a vaguely spiritual bent,that's where i would go first.
indeed,they were the boys who taught me the meditation thingy.
i should start up again!
ianyway,knowing you don't care for mr. dawkins, here's a couple of richard feynman link.s..
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yes, biggus dave, they taught me the meditation thingy too, Throssel Hole Priory...
I guess it's personal with me and Dawkins. I've read his books. He's very good on the biology, although too reductionist, like he slags Lovelock, (who I also think is a better scientist in some ways, with a broader vision). Ernst Mayr is probably better than both, and he says there's no incompatibility between Darwin and Gaia theory. What annoys me about Dawkins, as i said, is when he comes out of the science and tells me that I have to agree with him or else I must be irrational, sheesh...
Yeah, Feynman is very cool. I love his delight and enthusiasm.
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Just remembered that someone said I was stupid and deluded because I didn't share their worship of Richard Dawkins, et al, and his foolish vendetta against religion...
Well, here's a little quote from someone I'd consider a more eminent biologist than Dawkins...a scientist who didn't see any need to start a turf war with religion.
"The funny thing is if in England, you ask a man in the street who the greatest living Darwinian is, he will say Richard Dawkins. And indeed, Dawkins has done a marvelous job of popularizing Darwinism. But Dawkins' basic theory of the gene being the object of evolution is totally non-Darwinian. I would not call him the greatest Darwinian." Ernst Mayr
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I have found that, often, a little alcohol can be a help, but there is a fine line between loosened up and loused up.
A piper friend was once asked how he could play so well when he was soooo drunk. He replied: Simple. Practice drunk. Maybe there is something to this "state dependent memory" after all.
We often tell folks "The more you drink the better we sound".
Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Friends of the dark slender boy, I come to you with this question: honestly, even if you're an accomplished musician do you really feel you play well after more than a pint/hr? I ask because I love beer in a social setting as much as anyone. But finally I realized that alcohol really affected my playing [not in a good way] and I'd rather play well for the sake of the music. So I've sadly given it up and now drink ginger ale or some such. Also, I've noticed that while REALLY good [pro] musicians can often carry on playing relatively decently even after a few pints [or joints, or both], sadly those of us in the middle realm do not do so well [although we often think we do]. One session in particular I'm thinking of -- where middling players' performance in session after a pint or two is unlistenable. In other words, the music suffers. I personally feel I now play much better in public sessions without the booze and I do it for the music making. I just wish I could do both, but I can't. Was wondering what others experiences are in this regard? Can good players deal with booze better in a session setting vs. beginner/intermediates? Should one wait until one is a much more grounded player before hitting the pints too heavily?
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Booze gives you great confidence to play badly and not be in the least bit embarrassed. It encourages all sorts of people to play in public who would otherwise not even dream of it. I gave up alcohol 4 years ago and have not performed in public since! As for joints, yes indeed, a nice roast of sirloin is just the ticket.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Perhaps you should practice with a few drinks in you - OK, I'm not really suggesting such a thing, but..... there is a thing called state dependent memory, which can come in to play when recalling tunes; learn a tune with a few drinks in you at a session, and you might not remember it until you've had a few drinks again. I suspect the reason you have observed good players playing well with a drink in them, is partly because they are used to doing so.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Ron
I like that. "State dependent memory" ....spoken like a true cognitive psycholgist! ;) r u one? But yes, I sense what you mean...there is that balance where booze relaxes you and perhaps helps you get into the zone so that you loose "nerves" and in fact do play better. I only found that [usually] I played worse because the booze actually made me sloppy and that would induce nerves and clenching up on the fiddle etc.. But also, perhaps, as practice in music makes you more adept at performing the same could be said for pints? One plays to drink and drinks to play....?
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I find it be just like bowling.
You start bowling, you're OK. You have a beer, you get better. You have a couple more, now you're really cooking.
BUT! There's that line you will cross when you've had just one too many. That magical plateau you've reached where every ball can't miss is gone, as quickly as it appeared, and soon you're rolling gutter balls and chucking the thing into the next person's lane. It's time to pack it in and head on home.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Some people can and I think it has to do with what Ron P said. They're used to doing so. Also, they have been playing for years and years and a certain amount of technique/muscle memory comes through anyway, drunk or not. So, yes, I think it has to do with how grounded you are.
I've only been playing for about 13 yrs, mind you, but what I've noticed is this. I used to feel that without at least one pint in me I would be too nervous to play. The booze helped me focus a bit better. Now I finally seem to be getting the hang of "letting the music play itself" naturally. Not always, but it's happening more and more without the aid of a pint. Once I start playing (or getting played!) I can kind of zone out and put the nervousness aside. This doesn't mean I don't still get distracted and lose the tune at times. But I can definitely see progress. So now, I usually just have iced tea or water when I'm playing out.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by soft black stars
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Personally I find that a little bit of beer loosens me up a bit and makes the music-playing even more fun, but I agree that too much of it makes my fingers become rather sloppy. The last gig I was at I sipped at just one pint of beer over the course of the two hours we were scheduled for and I played great the entire time without feeling too intoxicated or sloppy. I think if you want to enjoy the social pleasures of drinking beer while at a gig or session, the trick is just to alter your routine intake of it; instead of a pint an hour, a pint every two hours so your body has time to process it before your brain cells are all bumping into each other.
Ron P's idea is also rather interesting, might be something to try.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Glass of Beer
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
SWFL - I used to find the same 'plateau effect' when I used to play league darts - got better up to about 2 pints, then plateau till 4-5 then... oh dear, the wheels start to fall off!
Playing fiddle it's much the same but the plateau is shorter for fast reels, and longer for airs I know well - confirmed by listening to snippets of recordings made (not by me) when I knew I'd "had a few"!
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by domnull
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
There was an interesting hypothesis put forward on this site some time back. In a nutshell, it said that you'd be OK if you started playing *before* or at the same time as you started drinking, but not if you started playing with a few already "on board". Some truth in that I think.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by domnull
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Some people reckon that if revise whilst p*ssed, you have to take your exam p*ssed to remember those facts.
Do we all have tunes that we learned whilst we were p*ssed, and can only remember/play them when p*ssed?
I guess a lot of singers learn their songs when p*ssed as they always sing them when p*ssed.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
"I guess a lot of singers learn their songs when p*ssed as they always sing them when p*ssed."
LOL ! geoff
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yep, domnull, that's it for me in a nutshell. If I get my playing warmed up before the alcohol kicks in, I have a much greater chance of playing well while I'm drinking. But if that buzz is going, I pretty much never warm up. I have noticed that the more experienced I get at playing, the longer I can play before that line gets crossed, too. But sessioning isn't all about the music, and many of my best session memories include a several pints and a whiskey or two.
And SWFL, didn't know that you were a bowler! We'll have to make the rendezvous into a 3 day Philoso-Trad-Bowling fest! (But we'll have to do it here, cuz I probably can't carry 60 lbs of bowling balls AND a banjo onto a plane)
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Isnt marijuana illegal in Canada and most places?
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
While it's true that many of us fair to middling players play like sh**te with or without a pint or two, there isn't much incentive for a pub owner to let us play if we don't support the bar.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by boxielady
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
McCracken:
I think in Canada it's ok to possess grass for personal use...not sure what the quantities are. That's not "illegal"...in fact, in Toronto there's a store/restaurant in Kensington Market where people go and shop/eat and smoke quite opening [grass] in the back. It's not quite blantantly advertised but it isn't hidden either. On the university campus where I work people smoke dope openly and also, apparently, throughout much of Toronto if my nose doesn't deceive me. Nobody's smoking dope openly at sessions since Toronto is "smoke free"...although the pollution is terrible. Nice irony there.
Boxielady: I agree with you. Which is why bars charge $2.50 even for a coke or gingerale. So I'm still supporting them.
Yes, I think warm up is important and that as a fiddle player especially I can cope with a slow pint over two hours much better if warmed up. Like someone mentioned above...often it's the "fumbling" of tunes or flubbing a passage here and there that the booze seems to bring on. But if warmed up that seems to happen less.
And yet it seems as if some really high end players [there are several in Toronto] can tolerate it pretty well...but, as said, perhaps the tunes are more ingrained in motor memory so they don't need to be so "conscious". Interesting.
I also notice however that one certain high end fiddle player who is known worldwide [no name dropping] and lives here does NOT drink much if at all while playing but saves it for later after sessions have wound down or he's played his fill.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
OK Rev, Summer in Colorado it is. Tell Swami wolfbird. Does this qualify as a religious trip if I'm hanging out with a Reverend and a Swami?
Even worse, I'm originally from New England where they do that candlepin bowling, ever seen that crazy stuff? I'm fluent in both bowling languages though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candlepin_bowling
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I've seen the staff from a regular session here in Teedot ask the pot smoking musicians to move down the footpath because they were blocking the front door while the punters were trying to come in. It can be a little off putting when three quarters of the session gets up to "stretch their legs" and then they come back in 15 minutes later absolutely reeking of grass. Then of course the usual cliches mount up. "Jeez, that's a great tune, we haven't played that in ages" "Ummm, we just played it 20 minutes ago before you went out." Another beaut is "Hey, those two tunes go really well together we should play it like that more often" "Ummm, those tunes have been played together here for the last ten years". You get the drift. Personally I don't care what people get up to in their spare time but I think this kind of overt behaviour, much like the slobbery session hooligans in Willie Week Miltown Malbay or Galway is of no service to the tradition.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Patkiwi
Darts!!!
domnull! What is more painful, playing darts with a bunch of drunks or playing this music with a bunch of drunks?
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
SWFL, never seen that stuff - crazy... So you roll your first ball slowly to knock down some pins, and then blow the second ball through the carnage to take the rest down?
Lots of guest room in my spacious house... any time you wanna visit, you let me know...
Oh, and back to the topic at hand, an extremely good player that I know isn't comfortable performing if he hasn't had enough to drink - same with sessions (but I think that's so he doesn't mind stooping to our level as much)
Pete
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
You got it Rev, they just leave all the downed pins right there! Sometimes it helps, sometimes, they act as a shield for the other pins, fouling up your whole process...well, along with the beer, of course. (last phrase brought to you by the thread continuity committee)
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I like to tell others sitting around me, "the more you drink the better I sound, I promise"
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by The Lonesome Bowman
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Drink...the curse of Irish Music and the downfall of many good musicians. Look at photos of musicians through the ages. Chances are there will be a few pints of the black stuff lurking somewhere in the photo. I love a few pints when I'm playing, it's a bit like a crutch really, but a few pints is enough. God, I've played with some 'drunks' in various bands and at different sessions over the years and listened while some dick head came out with "He plays better when he's had a few" Few meaning four and upwards. No he doesn't, he's crap, he becomes unbearable to listen to, and becomes a liability and annoying. When that happens I'm gone at the first opportunity.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
one thing i notice with some musicians, is once they get a little alcohol, they start playing stuff that their often too shy to do, like certain tunes and ornaments, it just gives them that little bit of confidence they need, however, this is just a small amount of alcohol, and with a small amount of people!!
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by S.Doherty
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
mtodd, I never realized how comfortable we are in Canada with respect to weed! That may explain the new Olympic bunny suits, Stephane Dion, hours and hours of curling on television, rasin drink, and putting Don Cherry on the $5 bill.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by grego
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Ah, grego, you're in Calgary, see. Drop by my neighbourhood in East Vancouver sometime, where I often head to the park with an ocarina on a sunny morning. There I've had the following conversation, on more than one occasion, with more than one different stranger:
Stranger: Man, that is like SO COOL! What's that thing you're playing? Is it like some kind of a flute?
Me: It's an ocarina.
Stranger: How does it work?
Me (demonstrates for a bit, playing a scale with exaggerated finger movements, then a simple tune)
Stranger: Holy sh1t! You're really good! Play something else!
Me: Thanks. Here - (plays something else)
Stranger: Holy f*cking sh!t! That's awesome! How many songs do you know?
Me: Mmmm..around 20 or 30, I guess.
Stranger: Kickass! Man! That is like the coolest thing EVER! (pauses, squints at me) Do you want some weed?
Granted, when this happened I was dressed entirely in hemp, had ridden my electric bike to the park, and my hair wasn't tied back. People make all sorts of assumptions, I tell ya. Anyway, this gave rise to one of a small handful of tunes I've composed, a reel I named Doobies Before Breakfast.
Anyway, topic: I don't myself drink, and dejectedly noted some time ago that not only am I never going to play nearly as well as Ashley MacIsaac - I've long been at peace with this fact - but that I am never even going to play nearly as well as *Ashley MacIsaac on acid*. Ayiiee.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
C'mon grego, don't you sing the national anthem at sporting events and such? "Oh Cannibis...."
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Oh, Will, you joke, but:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/whatsnew/cannabisday.html
(July 1 is Canada Day)
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yes it is.
But done in excess.......
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
“Here's to alcohol: the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.”
-Homer
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by The Lonesome Bowman
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Sure it izz.
DiddlyDeeEedYlddidDiddlyDeeEedYlddidDiddlyDeeEedYlddidDiddlyDeeEedYlddidDiddlyDeeEedYlddidDiddlyDeeEedYlddidDiddlyDeeEedYlddidDiddlyDeeEedYlddid...
Howzat?
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Piece
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
In my world I play better when I have had a few but still know my limits. My guage is when I fall over I stop playing.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by belfastfifer
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
There is a danger that this kind of thread sinks to mere sanctimonious proselytising. So I'll limit my response to the personal.
I like a diddle when I've had a few. Few pints, and/or a bit of a smoke. Someone above mentioned social drinking, and that perhaps you shouldn't mix your social drinking with your music making. I just can't seem to go with this at all. I just can't seem to grasp the concept that playing diddley music down the pub with your mates could be anything other than socialising with your mates. I just can't seem to grasp the idea that just because you're socialising includes playing tunes, you should re-brand your socialising as a sober affair.
However, over the last six months or so I've been limiting myself to just a couple of pints at the beginning of the evening and then water for the next few hours. Purely practical. When I am woken after my usual diddley night at 7.00am ish I have my two kids for the whole day. And there is nothing in the world more hopeless than attempting to spend a whole day in the company of a 1 year old and a 4 year old while nursing a hangover.
So what's the difference from when I'd usually be getting a little tanked up? The only real difference in my playing is stamina. Certainly not skill, or accuracy, or inventiveness or choice of tunes or ability to pick up tunes and/or retrieve tunes. Sometimes, coming to the end of an evening, I'll find myself a little out of touch with the banter, which is a shame, but not with the music.
The biggest difference though is my tolerance for eedgits. We've always liked to think we had a zero tolerance, but since I've been "aff it", I've been a little more of a zealous enforcer. Before, I found it easier to laugh the eedgits off. But now I have more confidence to nip such stuff in the bud much quicker. My mates are much pleased with this, of course.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Right on Pop, I hear ya. Being Dad and hangovers do not mix, I will second that motion.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Amazingly, I find myself to be apparently considerably older than Michael here. My bloody kids are in their late 20s already. I take full advantage of the free beer at our regular do and find it best to avoid awkward stuff after about 10.45. If we go further afield and it's my turn to drive I'll have a quick pint very early on then drink watery liquids thereafter. I think I play better on such evenings and I have just as much fun, but it don't stop me from hitting the beer big-time next time we're on home ground and I'm not driving.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Back in the '70s when I was playing rock music was to just keep 2 beers behind the crowd. As long as they were drunker than me we all thought I sounded good. Then I listened to the recordings.............
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Ham
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
About "state dependent memory"...I remember reading a study that found that anything that goes into one's memory carries a marker or tag which records the blood alcohol level, and that maximum retrieval occurs when the blood alcohol level is the same.
That explains the many people I've encountered over the years that can play extremely well when so drunk that they could barely stand up, but could not remember tunes nor play as well sober. They learned their technique and repertoire drunk, so they play best drunk.
Likewise I've done all my learning sober so if I have just a pint or two my playing goes off.
That's when the trouble comes: when people who have learned their technique and repertoire sober attempt to play when drunk.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Amazing what some people busy themselves with. Soon we'll be told how much to drink at a session, they already try to tell us what to play.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by beal atha
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Re 'state dependent memory'
"The particular form of learning in question, is then said to be: state dependent (sine qua non). The most familiar example from everyday life, is intoxication. Something learned, said, or done in that state may not be recalled at all, or only in part, when sober. However, get drunk again, and it all comes flooding back"
http://www.lionsroar.name/research_papers.htm
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Thank goodness I learned my music the real way, where you played if you wished and had a drink if you so desired. I make sure to avoid these session gurus.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by beal atha
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Ah Steve, quit yer gloating. Twenties you say? I got a ways to go yet.
If anyone thinks I'm being preachy above with the Dad and hangovers comment, go ahead and get yourself wasted and then wake up at the crack of dawn to the chorus of "Dad, we're hungry!!!" and let me know how that works out for ya. I'm just saying. [shrug]
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
>>I remember reading a study that found that anything that goes into one's memory carries a marker or tag which records the blood alcohol level...
Could you expand on that please. Goes into "memory" where and by which means? And what is the tag? Is it a chemical marker? Any chance you could recall the paper?
I gave up alcohol nearly 2 years ago. Well near enough anyway. A family member had just died as a result of long-term alcohol abuse. I decided I was not going to take the chance and follow in his footsteps. I don't think I miss it, and I go out to sessions and play without a drink in me. There's been maybe half a dozen occasions max during that period when I have had some drinks. All it does is make me light headed, kind of relaxed (but also wired) and mildly elated for a couple of hours, then I wake up the next day feeling headachey and wobbly and generally dire all day, so it's not worth it for me. It never improved my playing when I did drink, and I think I play with more "power", better intonation and better rhythm now.
So that's my contribution to this thread.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
beal atha has it nailed to a tee. (raises glass)
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Some leads here perhaps, KML
http://www.transformations.net.nz/trancescript/parts-intergration-and-psychotherapy.html
I spent an awful lot of time (and money) in pubs and at parties for about 20 years. For about 7 years, a guy I played with happened to be a dope dealer, so there was always free hash and grass. The landlords of pubs would keep sending over free drinks, folks would buy us drinks without asking. I just got used to coping with enormous quantities. I also got to see numerous alcoholics and casualties.
Time came when the only period of the 24 hours when I felt good was after the first drink. I tried to stop a couple of times, lasted a week or a month. I had the choice. Pull out, or keep on. I was walking across the road to my house alone in the early hours, after a crappy evening listening to stupid drunks and potheads arguing and falling over. I stood five minutes in the middle of the road and made my decision.
It was *really* hard to stop. Took eighteen months before I had a day without getting a pang that said 'what you really need is a drink'. Then I was free.
Don't mean to sound self-righteous, but IMO now, I see alcohol as nasty, poisonous, treacherous stuff. It can make you feel good, but it's a deal with the devil.
If you can handle pot as a sacred plant for special times, I think it can show you a lot. People who smoke all the time tend to get to be rather boring, IMO. Maybe this is provocative and controversial, but I think it would probably everybody should take LSD, or mushrooms, or ayahuasca, or salvia, or mescaline, just the once. The way Aldous Huxley explained, in 'Doors of Perception' and elsewhere. To get a really deep experience of what 'being' is.
But, of course, what I think is inconsequential and irrelevant. The politicians and police aren't going to ask my advice on drug laws, and the kids are going to take whatever they to take, regardless of me, or the politicians and police. There's a lot of drugs I never got around to, heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, MDMA, and plenty of others, so i don't have an educated view on them.
Nowadays, I like my consciousness exactly as it is. I enjoy being me through the whole 24 hours, no problem.
I don't really care what anybody else takes. I suspect that everyone has the basic right to put whatever chemicals they wish into their own body. I get more wound up about all the noxious substances that corporations put into our food without telling us than about illegal drug use or folks seeking refuge or pleasure in chemicals that they like.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
There is a danger that this kind of thread sinks to mere sanctimonious proselytising.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Could be, Michael, but wolf and myself have just related personal experiences and the conclusions thus drawn.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Was that repeated remark aimed at my comments, llig ?
sanctimonious, def. 'feigned piety'
proselytise, def. 'attempt to induce someone to a different POV'.
As far as I know, there has never been a soceity or culture which didn't use chemicals to alter consciousness. It seems a rather basic human characteristic. I was just speaking about my own experience and the conclusions I drew. I really don't care what other people take, it's their own responsibility, not mine.
With regard to the topic, as some others have commented, some people enjoy a few drinks and can play well or better. But there's a tipping point, where the alcohol starts to intrude.
In my teens, I met Derroll Adams several times and hung around with him. A most remarkable man, and amazing singer and banjo player. The change from sober to drunk was distressing to watch, sort of Jekyll and Hyde transition.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I t wasn't specifically aimed at you wolf, just a general note for everyone to be careful not to preach.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
michael, stop preaching, please
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Hmm. I was listening to a government minister saying that they are going to disregard the advice of the experts and reclassify cannabis to 'send out a signal' to young people.
Seems to me, the main message that sends out is that politicians are unprincipled, mendacious and hypocritical, and have a deluded opinion of themselves. I never met anyone ever who smoked or didn't smoke because of what a government minister had said.
I take your point, llig, about preaching. I can think of dozens of cases where concerned individuals have tried to persuade someone that their drug and/or alcohol habit was bad, and it's usually been a complete waste of breath. I think it has to be left to personal choice, similar to being a vegetarian or not.
Probably, if the Govt. wants kids not to smoke dope, best way would be to make it compulsory, then they'd all find ways to avoid doing it
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Incidentally, I recall a 17 year old lad who called by here, for some reason, a few years back. We got into conversation, and he asked me if I wanted any drugs, so I asked what could he get, and the list was impressive, ketamine, crack, speed, heroin, ecstasy, etc, etc, all within an hour of delivery, and this in a tiny remote rural village. I declined the offer, but it does say something about contemporary culture. Of course, that lad knew absolutely nothing of the pharmacology or long term hazards of any of the substances, just the prices. I'm all in favour of honest education about all drugs, including those prescribed by doctors, and including alcohol, so that people know what's what. I've known more than one person whose life got wrecked by legal prescription medicine, but that's another issue.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
What a shame. No hypocrysy intended but:
http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Don't know precisely how much weight to give that site and the studies, KML, because quite recently there was radio discussion where the evidence was contested by people who seemed to know what they were talking about.
However, even if those risks are correct, the way I see it, many pleasurable activities are dangerous, for example, rock climbing, horse riding, etc., and loads of people take massive risks everyday, fishermen, soldiers, miners, etc. and there's none of the nonsense and hysteria that usually accompanies conversations about drugs.
Personally, I believe that mind expanding drugs, are, or can be, a good thing. But you need to do some research first and know something about what you're doing, and be very careful, because there are risks. I've said this to numerous folks who've asked my advice. Mostly, I've been ignored
I really don't like the responsibility of telling others what they should or shouldn't do, but if anybody asked me if they should take psychedelics, my preferred option would be, that there are safer, more sensible, routes to the very same insights.
But, realistically, if drugs are available and someone's set upon trying them, they're probably not interested in my advice that the slow lane is safer and more reliable in the long term. I know this, because, at times in my life, everyone I've known, maybe 150 individuals, was taking pot and booze and other stuff everyday, like it was just 'normal'. Some did get badly messed up, and I was often asked for my opinion and help.
http://www.stanislavgrof.com/
http://www.spiritualemergence.org.au/
http://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/ratsch_christian/ratsch_christian.shtml
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
"I believe, if we take habitual drunkards as a class, their heads
and their hearts will bear an advantageous comparison with those
of any other class. There seems ever to have been a proneness in
the brilliant and warm-blooded to fall into this vice." Abraham Lincoln
http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I've done both a fair bit of rock climbing and a fair bit of dope in the past (oh.. and come think of it, schizophrenia research, almost forgot that). I'd rather run the risk of breaking my arm (the chances of which are very slight if you're roped up properly, and got good protection in) than run the risk of developing schizophrenia any day. The group which this latest group of studies, headed by Robin Murray, are targetting, is young teenagers, whose brains are still developing. The last thing they need is so-called "mind expanding" drugs to interfere with where particular neurons are sending out dendrites to. I haven't a clue which radio program you were referring to, but are you sure that is as objective an assessment of this situation as a scientific study with statistically significant cohorts and controls?
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I didn't give full attention to that programme or note the speakers. It may have been Colin Blakemore (see links)
Why did you take precautions when you climbed, KML ? I mean, if you wanted to avoid all risk, safer to stay in your bedroom. Obviously, your'e prepared to take some risk in tandem with the rewards.
I assume you didn't become schizophrenic from cannabis. Tell people about the risk (whatever it may be) so they can make an informed decision,IMO.
What I find ridiculous is the irrationality that always appears when the word 'drugs' is mentioned. Food and beverage companies have been putting E number additives and trans fats and pesticide residues into food that children eat for decades, and the dose them with Ritalin, etc.
Please don't misunderstand my position. I'm not saying I'd want any child to smoke tobacco or pot or sniff glue or eat food that's full of crap, too much salt, sugar, synthetic dyes, or anything like that. Thing is, a lot do these things, and a lot of adults havn't a clue themselves, and drink alcohol way over the danger limit.
"We should take very seriously the growing evidence of a link between cannabis smoking and psychosis. But this is still in the realm of correlation rather than causation. Cigarette-smoking and drinking are also very high among young people heading for schizophrenia, but no one has suggested that they cause psychosis. And what of the alarming stories of horrifyingly powerful 'skunk'? Some newspapers have told us that the level of THC, the active ingredient, in street cannabis today is 20 or 30 times higher than 10 years ago. That would be rather surprising, given that THC content was 7 per cent on average in 1995.
In reality, two studies, due to be published later this year, concluded that the average THC content has doubled. This might be a cause for some concern, but what we don't know is whether this has affected the amount of cannabis that users smoke. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/04/drugsandalcohol.drugspolicy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/30/drugsandalcohol.medicalresearch
http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2277790,00.html
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
This thread has become like an edition of the BMJ
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by domnull
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
About schizophrenia - there's so much stigma and fear about mental illness that it's almost as difficult to discuss as drugs or God or similar emotive topics.
If you actually study the history of psychiatry over the last two or three centuries, the record is deeply shocking. As much as anything, it's been a tool for social control, keeping dissidents and misfits under control, and absolutely appalling things have been inflicted upon people in the name of 'cureing' them.
The way I see it, 'normal' just means average. Half the population above the line, half below. It doesn't tell us anything about what 'sanity' is or means. But you can be certified insane purely because your behaviour doesn't fit the norm, and receive electro convulsive 'therapy' (which damages the brain) and be forced to take powerful drugs (which damage the brain) and be labelled as 'mad', which means you get ostracized, just because a psychiatrist claims to see symptoms of some pathology that's described in the text book.
Yesterday, you were standing up for gays in Jamaica, KML. But it's only a few years since American psychiatry classified homosexuality as a mental disease, to be treated with all kinds of mediaval practices, like lobotomy. And in the USSR, to disagree with the government was a mental illness requiring treatment.
I would like to see a lot more understanding for folks who have breakdowns or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or whatever. It's a common thing, I think one in four at some time in their lives. Personally, I think it can be a very positive experience, if it's looked at from a different paradigm to the standard old fashioned orthodoxy.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
ITM is therapeutic, domnull ! Music therapy...
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yes, I've heard that type of "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" analysis of mental illness and psychosis before, the stigma of society and so on. And to a certain extent that is correct. But it is also dangerous, not least to people with schizophrenia. Apart from very debilitating symptoms such as hearing voices, other hallucinations, delusions, avolition, disordered thought and sometimes catatonia, severe depression (endogenous depression, not JUST being depressed about having SCZ) and suicidal thoughts are not uncommon among people with SCZ. I've never had it, but somehow I don't think that can possibly be a positive experience. Sorry, that's just me.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Taking your thinking to its logical conclusion, do you think it would be a positive experience to have Alzheimer's Disease or Parkinson's?
These are more easily characterised diagnostically: AD by prevalence of plaques and tangles in the hippocampus and neocortex; PD by loss of substantia nigra in the brain stem. So these are neuropathological hallmarks. They thus elicit sympathy, not stigmatisation, from society. SCZ does not have such a clearly defined pathology. So maybe that's why some "liberally" minded people may think it can be a positive experience, thinking it is "just" a "state of mind" rather than a characterisable disease. That's the only justification I can think of for you making such platitudinous statements.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I don't think I take exactly the position that you are suggesting, KML.
There was a fashionable extreme anti-psychiatry movement in the 1970-80's, but things have moved a long way since then.
You didn't see this on tv I assume ? remarkable film.
http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/D/dr_hears_voices/index.html
http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/0-9/4health/mind/wwr_schizophrenia.html
Do you think that , what most people consider 'being normal' is a positive experience, KML ?
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Hey, 'platitudinous' is unwarranted !
I'm serious. Unlike alzheimer's or parkinson's, people can go into a mental illness (it could be considered differently, e.g. a mental or spiritual re-arrangement) and come out of it again, and come out being richer, deeper, stronger, individuals than before. Honest with themselves, honest with other people.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I think I understand what you saying about the "positive" experience. I have experienced depression, have highs and lows. My question for my doctor and therapist has been "Do I sacrifice the highs to alleviate the lows?" My answer, with their support has been, "no." There is a book that I read a long time ago called "The Gift of the Dark Angel," it addresses some of these issues.
I don't think I would recommend my route to those suffering from more serious cases, it's up to them and their doctors to find what's best.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Well, wyogal, I guess that in an ideal, perfect, world, there'd be no suffering, no diseases, no AIDS or cancer or post-traumatic stress disorder. But the funny thing is, most of the really nice, wise people I ever met have been through all kinds of hardships and tragedies, and the ones who've had an easy ride tend to be shallow, silly, superficial.
Getting back to folks taking drink or drugs, I think one of the reasons is because they cannot cope with the highs and lows. But it's counter productive. If you take a drink every time you feel down, you never learn better ways, and never face what's really going on.
There's a woman I know well who had a massive breakdown after quite a lot of drug usage, and was diagnosed bi polar. A long time ago. She's almost always buzzing, gets 10 times as much done as most people. I told her, she seemed very speedy to me. She seemed fraught by the comment, as if it was a criticism of fault, because she was afraid of seeming 'crazy'. I told her, if that's your nature, then be it, it's wonderful to have so much energy. Wish I did.
But then she hits a few days of being down, when life seems pointless. She's learned to understand the cycle. She just stays in the house, curls up with a book, thinks about stuff.
In my estimation, if you can keep yourself fed, clean, pay the bills, etc, so you don't burden someone else with looking after you, that's good enough, that's 'sane'. I think it's the mainstream culture and it's values that is crazy and needs changing...but that's another thread
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
flipin 'eck, I'd no idea my kids were insane
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
' fraid so, Llig............."a chip of the old block" an' all that
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by domnull
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I wasn't talking about KIDZ, llig
well, maybe adolescents.
Actually, I had in mind some drug taking punks with mohicans and rings in their noses and all that stuff, all bravado and swagger, and yet when you get to know them, they're scared, insecure and worried about going mad...
This is the guy. I like his take on this whole mental thing...a big step forward, IMO
http://www.rufusmay.com/
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Don't know if we've escaped the sanctimonious proselytising, but domnull was right, here's the BMJ
http://rufusmay.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=9
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yeah, I think it's terrible how we treat people now who hear voices. We should be cannonising them like they did in the old days instead of trying to cure them.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
If anyone's interested, the whole film can be downloaded here
http://www.mininova.org/tor/1346615
IMO all doctors and anyone concerned about 'mental illness' would find it illuminating, and for the general public it might give a better understanding of the problems.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
OK, maybe platitudinous was harsh. Apologies if it stung. It just seemed that you were dismissive of some of the real suffering people with psychiatric illness go through, but you have explained it in depth a bit more now. There are now recognised anatomical correlates in SCZ and BPD (bipolar disease) - I co-authored a few. So maybe those conditions will in future be treated with less popular stigma. The point is, i would not wish to encourage younger teenagers and adolescents (ages 12-18) to smoke weed as there is a 40% or whatever increase in risk of them developing SCZ later on, stigmatised or not. Also, I DON'T think you need to suffer all your life to be good, or interesting. That just seems to me like trying to salvage some justification out of not playing the cards you were dealt with very well. But maybe that's just me being cynical.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I wasn't STUNG, Danny !
Just a bit frustrated that you might think I take this stuff in a flippant or lackadaisical manner.
I also wouldn't recommend young people or anyone to smoke weed. But it's a pointless statement. I'm not in a position to change what anybody does.
And I never said that anyone needs to 'suffer all their life to be good or interesting'.....but suffering afflicts people uninvited and unavoidably. My point is, that it can be very positive. It doesn't have to be seen as some terrible misfortune to be feared. It's a challenge, and if it's overcome, that's a triumph for the individual.
Sometimes suffering is intolerable, breaks people, destroys them. But we all get defeated by death in the end, whatever. That's another thread really, but that's why I reject some of the ideas that have turned up recently. IMO, religion is good. Science is no comfort, neither is existentialism, if your wife gets breast cancer, or your child gets abducted or you crash your car and get paraplegic. That kind of suffering or crisis is when a person needs some sort of spiritual resources, IMO.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Tossing in something that might (or not) be relevant to the several topics threading through this thread:
Addicitions and disorders all come in a range of intensity and a range of frequency. At the lower end of both scales, it becomes difficult or impossible to differentiate between "normal" and abnormal. But as you go up the scale in intensity and/or frequency, life grows more problematic for whoever's experiencing the symptoms.
At the mild end of things, not everyone needs or wants to be "cured" of their difference. Science should make us smarter. As the father of a son who's on the very high functioning autism spectrum, I hope there's a trend toward accepting some milder issues as within the range of the human norm, while we work toward treatment for more severe issues.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
bloody hell. "Religion is good" and "We all get defeated by death in the end" and "Science is no comfort".
You really are depressed
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Naah, llig....very happy...think Jim Morrison and the Doors, "Riders on the storm..."
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Religion is the husk of the faithless. Who said that? It's a good one.
Wolfbird, the only spirituallity I need is knowing the atoms in my body have been around since the beginning, and they be bonding in new ways long after I'm gone.
Science is the source of genuine wonder and awe--I don't need any more comfort than that wonder and awe provides.
Some people look up at the stars and feel impossibly insignificant, so they grasp at straw gods. Others look at the stars and realize they are--to the very stuff of their molecular being--part of it all, inseparably part of all existence.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Wolfbird. Trust me. Someone gets cancer, science CAN be a comfort.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by grego
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Then why see the only inevitability about life as being defeated?
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Okay, if that's how you see it, grego, I have no wish to diminish your comfort.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
And if someone gets Schizophrenia risperidal can be a comfort - science made that.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Not sure what you mean, llig.
Wasn't I saying that not all suffering (accidents, illness, failure, loss, etc.) can be overcome ? But even if you do overcome suffering, you're still going to die. That put's it into proportion, no ? I don't find the idea of death depressing. Just reminds me to get on with things, make good use of the time, etc.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Seems you (and grego) misunderstand my drift, KML
I'm not against science, or disparaging it's achievements, or what it has produced that reduces suffering (e.g. anaesthetics)
But if you're awake at night and thinking of a friend who took their own life, thinking about chemical formulae or Monty Python isn't the sort of thing that makes sense of life or provides answers. All religions have specialized in that area for millennia.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Not sure what this says about me, but I find a lot of spiritual solace in humor. Often, when things seem their darkest for me, spirituality fails when "SPAM!" succeeds.
Of course, I'm on the opposite side of normal.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
This thread is just like life...
You start out with drink, and you end up prattling on about the Meaning of Life!
Find a pub.
Or rent The Meaning of Life.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by grego
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I guess we are all different, SWFL, and pleased that you are abnormal
and I agree, a good laugh is a wonderful thing, (and something for which science has no explanation).
Maybe I caused confusion by giving examples. I just meant that set backs and tragedies test a person in many ways. It can be anything really, like failing to get the job you wanted, or marriage break up, or business goes bust, or whatever.
Existentialism ( from which Monty Python draws it's view of life) just leaves us as meaningless entities in an absurd Universe.
The old mechanistic attitude that the medical profession has, mostly, sees us as biological machines, that can be adjusted chemically, like tinkering with a motor car engine.
Lots of people take that sort of philosophy for granted, even if they are not fully conscious of the beliefs and how they arose historically and culturally.
I don't expect, or even want, anybody to change their ideas to match mine. Just that, when I've hit hard times, I found spiritual resources which got me through.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
...and eat "SPAM!"
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Oh, sorry, the above was my add-on suggestion for grego.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
For sure wolfbird, I totally understand. I think sometimes my soul need a humourous jump start to reconnect to the spiritual side of things. Then I can be nice and helpful to others and actually feel like I'm spiritually accomplishing something again.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
needs, not need
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Nope, sorry. When I lay awake at night pondering the imponderables, I prefer to hypothesize, test, assess, synthesize, and hypothesize anew until I fall asleep. Better that than rely on thousands year old childish myths made up by people who believed the world was flat, disease was caused by impeity, and stoning was neither cruel nor unusual punishment for even minor transgressions.
Put it in more prosaic terms: When I'm 30,000 feet above the ground, hurtling along at 500 miles per hour, sipping my ginger ale and gnoshing on peanuts, and we hit a spot of turbulence, I notice some people bargaining with their gods to keep the plane in the air. Given how many millions of people over the centuries have perished in the name of religion, I prefer to put my faith in the Bernouli effect.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
When I lay awake at night pondering the imponderables, I prefer to do stuff like pretend I can fly or do real magic or something
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Well, Will CPT, that's your portrayal of what the word religion means. I had to use the word because there isn't another to cover the territory, which is vast.
You present a caricature which only touches upon a few negative aspects of one or two brands of religion. Not all myths are childish, not all religions include stoning to death, etc. There are positive aspects to all religions, which is why they are still around.
But,I don't think this thread can stand a discussion on comparative religion, so I'm going to leave it there, if I may.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
...oh yes, and when I say 'spiritual' (lest I be mistaken) I mean playing in sessions with friends, being a father to my sons, helping little old ladies cross the street (I live in Florida, do you have any idea how many old ladies are out walking around in traffic?), and so on.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Actually, I'm with Wolf on this one. Religion (which isn't a very good word to describe any personal spiritual experience) to be truly meaningful has to begin with what you actually experience yourself. As I said at the beginning of the "Irrelevance" thread, you *are* at the centre of the universe as you perceive it. Hinduism starts with this deliberately childlike perception of ones place in the universe and grows out from there. Western reductionist-Greek-philosophy- thinking religions tell you that god is some big daddy in the sky, encouraging schism and division right from the start. So it's no wonder that Will has a jaundiced view of these myth-peddlar religions.
Anyway. What will we talk about now? Music? Seems somewhat pedestrian after all that lot........
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
How many are alive, well, happy and prospering because of religion.
How many people have been kept away from mind destroying substances because of the teaching of their religion?
It doesn't seem all bad. What's messed up is the constant pointing at those who, throughout history, have perverted religion as examples of religious people.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Interesting thread.
I guess all I have to add is that the theory that drug use and mental illness (a loaded term but I'll use it here for the sake of brevity) are connected isn't exactly cutting edge. It's kind of a nineteenth century idea packaged in twenty-first science. If you read the writing of nineteenth century doctors postulating on the causes of insanity, excessive drink comes up frequently, with detailed medical explanations for why. Their medical constructs could explain this for them as well as ours do. Which is to say, well enough for some in the professional community but not so well for others. As you might expect, these claims were contested. But the Edinburgh medical school anyway seemed to teach a model describing lunacy as a brain disease in part caused by heredity, alcohol as well as assorted other "moral" failings.
This was interesting when insanity defense cases got to court, especially after 1843, as judges wanted to know if the defendant knew the difference between right and wrong. Many psychiatrists didn't like that criteria because they felt there was a species of insanity wherein the defendant knew what he did was wrong or illegal or whatever, but did it anyway because he suffered from what they called "moral insanity."
I'm rambling. Oh dear.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I should add that I use terms like "insanity" and "lunacy" because that's what early modern medicine as well as lay terminology used. I'm aware that it's regarded as somewhat offensive now. But if I'm talking about historical stuff, that's what I use (as is pretty common practice for historians of psychiatry). Not meant to be offensive.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Will CPT - Put your faith in Bernoulli? - Hah! Read and doubt your faith:
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/AERO/airflylvl3.htm
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by grego
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Religion is indeed a very bad word with which to describe any personal spiritual experience. The religious most certainly do not have the monopoly the spiritual. An atheist has just as much right to be spirited ... for example, to play a tune with spirit. Religion is an entirely different thing, it's about spooks and fairy stories and deities and intelligent design and when you die you don't actually die. et-cetera
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
LOL, grego, I used Bernouli effect as shorthand for the laws of physics. Yes, I'd rather put my faith in a system of thinking that encourages us to revise our understanding of reality as we learn new ideas and develop new tools for exploring that reality. Reigious faith encourages only adherence to old fables poorly told, and allows revision only when in its own favor, or when forced by irrefutable evidence to do so.
No, Danny, I'm not ignorant of Hinduism or Buddhism or Jain Dharma of Islam. But every religion is a belief system with few if any testable precepts. What is offered without proof of any testable kind can readily be dismissed--no justification is needed for not believing.
Science too is a human construct, and so has its own foibles. But it does a far better job at explaining reality as we experience it than any of the old myths that took root before the age of reason and the scientific method.
Hup! I'm off to play some tunes.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Double L with the spiritual atheism. Word.
No gloating Will! I'm almost there.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
For anyone interested in the issues that arise when the supposedly incompatible worldviews or paradigms of atheistic science and of religion (or maybe that should read 'spiritual experiences' to avoid the baggage and prejudice that the word 'religion' carries) clash or overlap, there's a fascinating archive here where scientists talk about the topic.
http://www.issc-taste.org/main/introduction.shtml
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I've just had a look at that website, and there is absolutly no proof that any scientists submitted any of those stories. As a matter of fact, many of them seem to be written in the exact same style as the designer of the website. Mmm. Not that I'm in the least sceptical or anything.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by blah
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Just re-read this whole thread, and gave it a bit of thought.
I wouldn't want anything I said to be taken as encouraging anybody to take anything, because I don't want to be a cause of any harm. My advice for anybody who takes drugs, or has a problem with alcohol or drugs, or is tempted to try, or is worried about someone else, etc...get educated ! There's no excuse. All the classic literature is readily availabe here, you only need to be able to read, and then make your own judgements.
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
So, what are you saying, thedon ? Someone has gone to the trouble of making them all up ? Maybe some of the submissions may be fanciful, I didn't read them all, and maybe there's no check on the credentials mentioned. Nothing wrong with being sceptical, I'm sceptical of everything, and there's loads of very dodgy stuff on the internet. But I do have some confidence in Charles Tart himself, he is a established authority in the field, and has a reputation to protect.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Tart? Sour. If he's busy "protecting his reputation," then he's not behaving like a scientist. Besides, I prefer to think for myself.
Wolfbird, "atheistic" is at least as baggage-weary as "religious," especially when you link it to "science" in one breath like that. "Atheist"--someone who doesn't believe in the unbelievable--a rather ingrown, pointless word, eh?
Here's what I believe in (a la Bull Durham):
Nyah
Cuts, rolls, and triplets articulated with clarity and verve
A nimble 60-gram pernambuco bow
Hammy's embouchure cutting skills
Well aged whiskey
Homemade apple pie
Flirting
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
You sound very Zen, Will.
Anyway, are we allowed to discuss religion , politics or football teams?
I know a good antidote to addictions, feeling in need of religion, and that big empty feeling:
Take up a sport....jogging, athletics, rock climbing, cycling, even do it competitively. Works for me.
Better still...play music.
Now why didn't someone say that before?
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
"Tart? Sour. If he's busy "protecting his reputation," then he's not behaving like a scientist."
What I meant, Will CPT, is, that, as you ought to know, if a scientist fakes the data, they risk losing their reputation.
Atheistic is a perfectly valid word. It means, as you ought to know, Will CPT, 'without a belief in God'. There are some scientists who do have a belief in God.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Many of the greats, wolf. Isaac Newton for a start.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Wow, after reading all this....I need a drink!
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by halfwaythere
Re: Infamy,infamy!
'alchemy,alchemy!....they've all got it alchemy'...
sorry,that's the wrong Carry On line...
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Pity ITM wasn't included...
"...parallel with Martinez’s research on the use of alcohol to stimulate and individual’s religious experience, Zinberg (1984) researched alcohol’s ability to increase ones sense of euphoria. Zinberg (1984) stated that alcohol speeds up an individual’s mood, either increasing depression or euphoria, in harmony with pre-existing circumstances. The setting of a music club, and type of music played would be an example of these already present conditions. Zinberg (1984) studied marijuana users as well as alcohol users, and found that many of the marijuana users began using the drug while listening to music. “Some claimed that marijuana slowed down the time sense so that they could hear and experience music more explicitly and precisely, note by note, theme by theme”
http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/253.asp
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Well, technically Atheist it comes from the greek atheos which means without god, a-without, theos-god, rather than without a "belief" in god. The word is usually used as a negative, rather than a positive. To be without god is to be an evil, damned person. Very different connotation than how you are using it. Or maybe not?
And yes, there are some scientists who believe in god. I understand it's about 3-5%, which is really an anomaly, rather than a significant proportion. Most scientists are also a-toothfairiests, a-santaclausists, and a-giantspagettimonsterists, but strangly we don't use those terms much.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by blah
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
thedon, *all* words have an etymological origin and history.
I'm speaking in contemporary english, using the commonly understood meanings of the words. I'm well aware of the greek basis of atheist. The term is usually used to distinguish those who don't believe in a God from those who do, e.g. atheists, agnostics, and people with faith.
I don't accept that it carries any negative connotations, or means an evil or damned person. I've never heard it used in that sense in the UK, but maybe it is used differently wherever you are.
I agree. The majority of present day scientists are atheists or agnostics. So what ?
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I think that after many, many years research I have found that amongst myself and various colleagues around the world there seems to be the following rules. One drink over a period of time = good playing. Two? a bit dodgy. Three? there go the ears. Four? well, goodnight, I'm out of here. Five? we are in danger of loosing the session. Six? You said what to the publicans mother?
oops, I seem to have refered back to the actual question asked at the start of this thread. ;p
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by blah
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
damn, I've forgotten how to do smilies.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by blah
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
My position regarding science and religion is, with some minor quibbles, similar to that of this guy, who explains the background far more eloquently than I can
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2381164272554857228&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=171251376607384591&hl=en
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Sorry to appear flippant wolfbird, and I don't have the time just now to check out those links. But a brief explanation is called for. Many people, including myself, object to the term atheist. It starts with the presumption of the belief in god, and then puts a negative in front of it. This does not happen with any other non belief. How many people refer to themselves as an athorist, or azuest? Or an apurpleunicornist? Belief in something that has absolutly no supportive evidence should not be the starting point. Far better to use the terms rationalist, or even humanist than the term atheist.
However, I am now to bed, and just so this thread won't be deleted by the big J because it has no relivance to ITM, I would just like to state that diddly idle, diddly iddle, diddly iddle dum.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by blah
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Relivance? I mean relevance.
To bed, to bed. Damn this keyboard, it can't spell.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by blah
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
If it makes you happier, thedon, yes, substitute rationalist, humanist, materialist, whatever...I was making a distinction between two areas, science v. religion, so atheist seemed appropriate shorthand. Yours is the first objection to the term I've come across, and it hardly seems like a serious matter to my mind, but if it seriously bothers you, I hope it doesn't disturb your sleep.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Really? Try using the term with Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens, or most other writers on the subject. It's pretty common. Seriously. If you haven't come across this objection before, then you haven't read many "Atheists" writers, if indeed any at all. Can I suggest the above two, plus maybe A C Greyling, Michel Onfray or Sam Harris and you will find it's a very common objection.
And no, I'll sleep just fine. Thanks for your concern.
ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by blah
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I've read 'em, thedon. They're all way behind the times, fighting idiotic rearguard battles against strawmen of their own invention.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
And, hey, thedon, if the only reason why 'atheist' should be substituted is because the likes of Dawkins and Hitchens don't like it, then I'll rejoice in using the term whenever I can.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Oh dear oh dear. Enough said I think. I'm out of here.
That is probably the stupidist thing I have read in a long time.
Seriously, you have just lost all credibility. "Strawmen of their own invention" Pathetic.
Way behind the times? What, you're cutting edge?
I'm off to talk about diddly.
cheers, have a nice delusional life.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by blah
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Looks like you can't win on this website. A couple of years ago, around Christmas, I took a verbal kicking from some Christian members for questioning Jesus's virgin birth and his reincarnation. Not that I cared in particular. And now here's wolf getting a pounding for suggesting there might be a god after all...or even that we're spiritual beings or something. Funny innit? As I say you can't win. Let's all just not ever post any opinions on here ever again, eh? How interesting would that be?
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
My anal attention to detail can't help but notice that the word 'atheist' *doesn't* mean not believing in God, but not believing in *a* God. That is, it is a belief that there is no God, or Gods. So, for instance, an "athorist" would still, in fact, be an "atheist".
Me? I'm a "lapsed Catholic". So much easier.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by ethical blend
Who is this "BRIAN" they speak of? Is he the god that is written about?
Somone told be "god" was a geezer from Catford or envorirons called "Brian".
It that true?
One have never knowingly encountered this character...
Some have said that I was sent by Brian but one says unto you, oh diddley people, he was only Brian the Baptist.
The true prophet is but to rise, the ITM Mohammed as it were,over and above your Jesus bloke like Jesus of Nazareth was to Moses (et al) and Mohammed is to Jesus!
Oh sons of Abraham rejoyce!
And may the friends of Krishna be smug...
I didn't think there were any Christians...you know, like...real Christans! left?!
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by yhaalhouse
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
KML, I'm not, never have, been making any claim whatsoever saying that there is, (or isn't) 'a God'.
My disdain for Dawkins and C. Hitchens (to distinguish from his brother, Peter) is because of their fundamentalist zealotry, exactly the sort of intolerant attitude that thedon demonstrates so clearly.
Those people are not 'defending science' as they claim, they are defending their own religion which I'd call scientism.
It's a religion that's just as crazy as the Creationists or similar religious fanatics. Anybody who doesn't agree with their crude 19thC reductionist materialist version of science is a heretic to be burned.
Fortunately, there are plenty of scientists, probably the majority, with a more enlightened open minded attitude.
.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
" There are several different kinds of skeptics. Some have a healthy skepticism which involves questioning new ideas, looking critically at evidence, but includes an open-mindedness and willingness to accept new ideas or evidence if the case is persuasive. I have no problem with skeptics of this kind, and this healthy skepticism is an essential part of scientific discovery. However, there is another kind of skeptic, the dogmatic skeptic or scientific fundamentalist, who is more concerned to defend a materialist ideology than to pursue scientific inquiry in an open-minded manner.
Such skeptics tend to oppose the kind of research I'm doing on principle, on the grounds that these questions should not be asked in a scientific way, and that subjects like the sense of being stared at, psychic pets, and memory in nature lie outside the scope of science. This kind of skeptic has made materialistic science into a kind of religion, and in my experience is not open to reason or evidence, although they often call themselves rationalists. In my opinion the correct approach in science is to put forward hypotheses, and to look at evidence in a rational manner, rather than rule out whole areas of inquiry and dismiss evidence out of hand because of some preconceived dogma. "
Rupert Sheldrake
IMO, Dawkins, Hitchens, et al, are the saints and gurus of SCIENTISM, an intolerant blinkered materialist ideology that denies any POV is possible other than their own. It's not science.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
'Anybody who doesn't agree with their crude 19thC reductionist materialist version of science is a heretic to be burned.'
?
are you sure that's not a bit of hyperbole,wolfbird?
i can't speak for hitchens but when i read dawkins' 'god delusion' book i'm sure there was n't any invitation to start burning anybody.
i no longer have the copy so i can't be sure.
i'm not here to argue the stylistic merits of dawkins or even what he's going on about as this thread has mutated quite enough already - but i don't think it's helpful to put words of a violent nature into someone else's mouth.
if he did write that people should be burned,then fair comment.
mind you,i do remember listening to a clergyman on the 'today' programme sometime last year opining that dawkins' book should be consigned to the flames so maybe he saw something i missed!
of course,the cleansing fire did come in handy with my banjo all those years ago...
oh,and my answer to the original poster of this thread is: yes it is - sometimes and with some people.i think...
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
biggus dave, if you read certain right wing evangelical 'Christian' fundamentalist websites, they hate Dawkins and see him as satanic (because he's a Darwinist).
And, if you read Dawkin's supporters websites, they slag off the Creationists, insulting them and their beliefs (in Intelligent Design, etc).
I don't support either side. I think both sides are pitiful and benighted.
Dawkins never misses a chance to ridicule religious beliefs. That's not science, it's propaganda, aggressively attacking other people because they don't happen to agree with you.
When I said 'burning heretics' I don't mean he wrote that in literal words, just that it's the same damn phenomena, as the Catholic Church's attitude towards non-believers during the Inquisition.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Again, if anyone is at all interested, my personal position re Science v. God, coincides very nicely with this guy's
"Science is often characterized as providing objective knowledge of the world as it exists independently of consciousness, whereas the humanities in general, and religion in particular, pertain to human experience. In this way, science is commonly viewed as being "objective," whereas religion is "subjective." In contrast to this popular idea, in this paper I shall argue that both scientific and religious truths cover a spectrum in terms of their invariance across multiple cognitive frames of reference. A highly objective truth, for instance, is one that is invariant across a wide range of cognitive frames of reference, including different modes of observation and different types of conceptual frameworks. A highly subjective truth, on the other hand, is one that is valid only for a very limited range of cognitive frames of reference. Following this model of intersubjective frames of reference, the validity of a truth-claim is tested, not in reference to some purely objective realm of existence, independent of all modes of inquiry, but in reference to multiple modes of perceptual and conceptual knowledge. With this criterion of truth, both scientific and religious modes of knowledge are seen to be inextricably embedded in human experience. Moreover, following this model, human consciousness--so long omitted from the scientific worldview--is seen to play a central role in both the natural world of science as well as the world of religious truths."
http://www.srhe.ucsb.edu/lectures/info/wallace.html
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Sorry, that's only the abstract. The text is here, if anyone wants it.
http://www.srhe.ucsb.edu/lectures/text/wallaceText.html
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
yes,i'm well aware of the situation between dawkins and his detractors.
i've got my thoughts too,such as they are.
but i still think we should be careful not to make incendiary comments.
and if you think that's a terrible pun...
...well.you'ld be right - and i've got plenty more...
by the way,wolfbird,not quite on topic but possibly relevant all the same - there used to be a cellist in one of the london bands who did have a severe drink problem and everyone knew it,including the conductors.
when one of the arm wavers asked him how he could still play so well when he was pi**ed the reply came:'because i practise when i'm pi**ed'.
what that adds to the sum of human knowledge i really don't know.
but somebody will.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Well, biggus dave, perhaps I over-reacted a bit, about being told not to use a perfectly good and useful word (atheist) merely because I might offend Dawkins or Hitchens. Every time I've read or heard them, they say things that are deeply offensive to people of serious religious faith. Even though I do not myself share that (Abrahamic) faith, I respect people's right to hold their beliefs.
Dawkins arrogance and hubris does offend me. It's like he stands up beating his chest, "I'm so tough, I'm so smart, I don't need no God". Okay, fine. But not everyone is as tough and smart as Dawkins. For millions, God is central to their daily existence, and, for them, very real. What's more, they behave ethically in line with religious morality. Science has no moral code to offer. (Ok, maybe humanism does, but I don't favour humanism for a whole lot of other reasons).
People *need* a moral code that they can respect. Even if they don't stick to it, at least they know the acceptable boundaries. Just like on this site. There's limits to what is tolerable. Science cannot do that job. Religions have been doing it for thousands of years. Obviously, they are a very long way from perfect, but I see that as their important social role.
One other thing. Years ago, there was debate over Dawkins selfish gene metaphor. His arrogance and intolerance was already apparent then. As it turned out, he was wrong, and Lynn Margulis was right. To my mind, the latter is the better scientist, but she doesn't see any need to aggressively attack people who don't agree with her.
Anyways, that cellist does sound like a case of the state dependent memory, mentioned about a mile back up the page. It's not something I know much about, but it figures.
Be happy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bf6D5T-EVw
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
ta for the link,wolfbird.
i quite like the old buddhist lads,mainly because they don't tend to preach at you and they don't believe in god.
well,that and the loving kindness with the compassion too.
if i were to join any club that had a vaguely spiritual bent,that's where i would go first.
indeed,they were the boys who taught me the meditation thingy.
i should start up again!
ianyway,knowing you don't care for mr. dawkins, here's a couple of richard feynman link.s..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSZNsIFID28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU8PId_6xec&NR=1
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Yes, biggus dave, they taught me the meditation thingy too, Throssel Hole Priory...
I guess it's personal with me and Dawkins. I've read his books. He's very good on the biology, although too reductionist, like he slags Lovelock, (who I also think is a better scientist in some ways, with a broader vision). Ernst Mayr is probably better than both, and he says there's no incompatibility between Darwin and Gaia theory. What annoys me about Dawkins, as i said, is when he comes out of the science and tells me that I have to agree with him or else I must be irrational, sheesh...
Yeah, Feynman is very cool. I love his delight and enthusiasm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEftG26r1Tc&feature=related
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
Just remembered that someone said I was stupid and deluded because I didn't share their worship of Richard Dawkins, et al, and his foolish vendetta against religion...
Well, here's a little quote from someone I'd consider a more eminent biologist than Dawkins...a scientist who didn't see any need to start a turf war with religion.
"The funny thing is if in England, you ask a man in the street who the greatest living Darwinian is, he will say Richard Dawkins. And indeed, Dawkins has done a marvelous job of popularizing Darwinism. But Dawkins' basic theory of the gene being the object of evolution is totally non-Darwinian. I would not call him the greatest Darwinian." Ernst Mayr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Mayr
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Intoxicated Traditional Music (ITM): Is it really possible to play well while under the influence?
I have found that, often, a little alcohol can be a help, but there is a fine line between loosened up and loused up.
A piper friend was once asked how he could play so well when he was soooo drunk. He replied: Simple. Practice drunk. Maybe there is something to this "state dependent memory" after all.
We often tell folks "The more you drink the better we sound".
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by ismisepol