Hi Linda! Welcome to the Session. We're by and large a mouthy lot, so feel free to stick in your two cents.
Explaining the dang things is easy. Irish tunes are Irish. Scottish tunes are Scottish. If you want to tell which are which by just listening, that's a little harder. But in general (although there's LOTS of exceptions), Scottish tunes jump around a bit more, they just SOUND like piping tunes to me, usually. Irish tunes usually flow a bit more. Of course, there's plenty of overlap, and then of course you can play just about any given tune either Scottish or Irish as you choose, and they sound very different. So, all in all, there's not much way to really figure it out except for the obviously Scottish ones like Jig of Slurs and Atholl Highlanders. (And even then, sometimes they'll fool you by being Donegal tunes.) This is all very helpful to you, I'm sure. And let's not add the Cape Breton and Galician and other celtic type tunes into it.
As for the names of the tunes, if it's a choice between remembering the tunes, or remembering the titles, remember the tunes.
Hi, Linda--I find that the more tunes I learn, the fewer names I remember (including my own...), but my fingers just remember the patterns. Sometimes, I can't play a tune until I recall the name, which is frustrating, when I know I know it, but then my fingers will find a familiar pattern, and the rest of the tune falls into place--except for the mistakes, which I call "ornaments."
Another disinction that may be found in Scottish music is the rhythm pattern called a "Scottish snap" in which the sixteenth note precedes the dotted eighth. It gives the music a buh-DAH buh-DAH feel, as opposed to BAH-duh BAH-duh. You see, we are all trying to be helpful!!!
So, all you much more experienced players out there, how long is it going to take before I have to hear the first three or four notes of a tune before remembering which tune goes how?
My first fiddle teacher at my first ever lesson explained the difference between everything Irish and everything Scottish as follows:
(In an Irish accent) "The Irish people never stop talking when you'd expect them to stop, always going on and on, never taking a breath, up in the air when you'd expect them to be down, down on the ground when you'd think they'd be up (breath) and everything they do reflects that - dancing, music, talking..." (Insert June's natural Scottish accent here) "And when the Scottish get to the end of a sentence they stop."
It's the clearest thing ever in my mind now. Of course Scots play Irish tunes and the Irish play Scottish tunes, but you'll find a general tendency amongst Scots to end and begin their phrasing in predictable places, no matter what kind of tunes they play. The emphasis is on single strokes and down bows and the ornamentation tends toward triplets. The first and third beat will be emphasised more often than not (in a reel)
The Irish tend to add a bunch of notes between the A and B parts to link them seamlessly together (in CERTAIN PARTS of Ireland, it should be noted) - you'll often find an Irish tune does not have a clear ending and you must make one up, or just keep playing the tune endlessly in circles until the end of the world. There are a lot of slurred notes, never where you'd think they belong, and usually in no regular pattern, the second and fourth beat will be emphasised more often than not in a reel, and they tend toward five note rolls as ornamentation.
That's of course not to say that the Irish don't use triplets and the Scottish don't use rolls.
The 16th note snap phenomenon is particular to a type of tune called a Strathspey, which is also a region of Scotlad (an island in the north), and also a type of dance. Not all tunes from Strathspey are Strathspeys, and not all Strathspeys are from Strathspey. Some tunes that masquerade as Strathspeys are actually Marches. There is no Island of March. There may however be a dance.
The most popular style of Irish playing in the New World seems to be Clare (which is a county in Ireland, but is not a dance or a type of tune). This is the style most accurately described above. Other regions of Ireland are distinctive in completely different ways.
Cape Breton music is heavily influenced by the Scots, as they are almost exclusively Scottish emigrants living for many generations in isolation. Because of this, their tunes and the Gaelic language on the island are uncommonly well preserved - so much so that they are more Scottish than the Scots, to a certain extent. Gaelic scholars go there to learn about Scottish culture (according to the Cape Bretoners).
I forgot to mention that the top half of Cape Breton was almost exclusively populated by emigrants from France. They seem to play the same stuff though.
*dusting off my hands* There. Isn't it about time someone made it all crystal clear for the everyone? Now all you need to do is learn Will's 200 common session tunes and you are officially a beginner!
Clear as only slighly muddy water now, Kerri! But that is a MASTERFUL bit of writing describing June's method of the difference between the Irish and the Scottish. *grin*
Also, don't forget that the Scottish style of fiddle playing tends to be "up bow here, down bow there, slur right here, no, don't change bow there!" In other words, bowing is very often "set" in Scottish fiddling, whereas in Irish bowing, it matters little so long as the feeling is there. I've no idea about the whistle.
I was told in Clare not to change bows until I was on a different string, and not to slur across strings. Unless, it was added, you do.
I asked Verena Commins, whose degree is in ethnomusicology and whose thesis was on Galway style playing, what differentiated Galway style playing from any other style, and she basically told me that it was extremely difficult to pinpoint, end of matter.
When interviewing Buddy MacMaster, I asked him what the old way of playing was like, and he told me flat out, "It's hard to describe. When you hear it, you just recognize it as an older way of playing."
Every time you frame a definitive about the music, you can find a jillion ways to disprove the rule. I'm quite sure everyone was trying to be helpful. (and that was supposed to be, "DON'T have to hear" in my whiny little note up further, there.)
.Trying to be scholarly about it is always such a gas! I meant to point out that everything I said there was completely unfounded, unresearched, unsupported, and off the top of my head, but my sweetheart baked cookies and I got distracted.
Hi Linda! I sure can't explain the differences between Irish and Scottish music either. But I sure like your teacher's explanation, fiddler on vermouth! I just generally know which a tune/group is when I hear it. I've listened to a lot of both (Battlefield Band, Alasdair Fraser and Silly Wizard, all from Scotland, are favorites of mine as well as the Irish stuff). If you start listening to lots of both your ear will begin to be able to distinguish them.
As to remembering tune names...I'm one of those people who at first *had* to have the name given to me or I couldn't remember the tune. Now I just have to hear a few notes and the rest of the tune turns up in my brain even though I may have no idea what it is. At the end of it I'll say "Ohhhh, that was Dunmore Lasses" or whatever. Having the name first still works faster, though! If I think of a tune title I get a mental image of where on the fingerboard it starts as well as having the tune start unspooling in my head. So I guess it's the same kind of thing cdkrueger experiences. Zina, I think I was about 3 years in when the first few notes would generally make the rest fall into place. Your mileage may vary!
Just back from the pub, so I'd thought I'd throw 2 cents in (It's all I've got left anyay). I like what Zina says about 'piping tunes'. If you can picture a bagpipe wailing away at the tune, it's probably Scottish.
One thing I notice about Scottish vs. Irish tunes is that the Scottish feel more 'understandable' to me whereas the Irish tunes have a distinct element of 'weirdness' about them.
The old-time American mountain music, bluegrass and country and western owe more to the Scottish (and of course the North Irish) influence than to the rest of Ireland. I think, as an American, I hear something more familiar in the Scottish than I do with the Irish. Of course, It's that weirdness that attracts me to the Irish style, so I continue to bang away at the fiddle until I create something that may approximate it.
Finally, I think the Scotts tunes are far more rigid and martial and orderly whereas the Irish tend to flow and ebb into beautiful circles.
Actually, I can remember tune names. I can remember tunes. But I often can't remember the tune until I hear the first three notes. It's very aggravating. What I need is for the tune name to simply make the tune fall into place full blown into my head. It's especially aggravating when you're trying to go from one tune into the other. *sigh*
Hey Kevin, it must be nice to still have two cents left to rub together. I generally come home almost completely penniless. That's when it's time to start going through the sofa cushions.
new on the block
new on the block
My name is linda. I'm new to The Sessions. I've been playing the bodhr
# Posted on November 4th 2001 by linda
Re: new on the block
Hi Linda! Welcome to the Session. We're by and large a mouthy lot, so feel free to stick in your two cents.
And let's not add the Cape Breton and Galician and other celtic type tunes into it.
Explaining the dang things is easy. Irish tunes are Irish. Scottish tunes are Scottish. If you want to tell which are which by just listening, that's a little harder. But in general (although there's LOTS of exceptions), Scottish tunes jump around a bit more, they just SOUND like piping tunes to me, usually. Irish tunes usually flow a bit more. Of course, there's plenty of overlap, and then of course you can play just about any given tune either Scottish or Irish as you choose, and they sound very different. So, all in all, there's not much way to really figure it out except for the obviously Scottish ones like Jig of Slurs and Atholl Highlanders. (And even then, sometimes they'll fool you by being Donegal tunes.) This is all very helpful to you, I'm sure.
As for the names of the tunes, if it's a choice between remembering the tunes, or remembering the titles, remember the tunes.
Zina
# Posted on November 4th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: new on the block
Hi, Linda--I find that the more tunes I learn, the fewer names I remember (including my own...), but my fingers just remember the patterns. Sometimes, I can't play a tune until I recall the name, which is frustrating, when I know I know it, but then my fingers will find a familiar pattern, and the rest of the tune falls into place--except for the mistakes, which I call "ornaments."
Another disinction that may be found in Scottish music is the rhythm pattern called a "Scottish snap" in which the sixteenth note precedes the dotted eighth. It gives the music a buh-DAH buh-DAH feel, as opposed to BAH-duh BAH-duh. You see, we are all trying to be helpful!!!
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by woman of the house
Re: new on the block
So, all you much more experienced players out there, how long is it going to take before I have to hear the first three or four notes of a tune before remembering which tune goes how?
Zina
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: new on the block
My first fiddle teacher at my first ever lesson explained the difference between everything Irish and everything Scottish as follows:
(In an Irish accent) "The Irish people never stop talking when you'd expect them to stop, always going on and on, never taking a breath, up in the air when you'd expect them to be down, down on the ground when you'd think they'd be up (breath) and everything they do reflects that - dancing, music, talking..." (Insert June's natural Scottish accent here) "And when the Scottish get to the end of a sentence they stop."
It's the clearest thing ever in my mind now. Of course Scots play Irish tunes and the Irish play Scottish tunes, but you'll find a general tendency amongst Scots to end and begin their phrasing in predictable places, no matter what kind of tunes they play. The emphasis is on single strokes and down bows and the ornamentation tends toward triplets. The first and third beat will be emphasised more often than not (in a reel)
The Irish tend to add a bunch of notes between the A and B parts to link them seamlessly together (in CERTAIN PARTS of Ireland, it should be noted) - you'll often find an Irish tune does not have a clear ending and you must make one up, or just keep playing the tune endlessly in circles until the end of the world. There are a lot of slurred notes, never where you'd think they belong, and usually in no regular pattern, the second and fourth beat will be emphasised more often than not in a reel, and they tend toward five note rolls as ornamentation.
That's of course not to say that the Irish don't use triplets and the Scottish don't use rolls.
The 16th note snap phenomenon is particular to a type of tune called a Strathspey, which is also a region of Scotlad (an island in the north), and also a type of dance. Not all tunes from Strathspey are Strathspeys, and not all Strathspeys are from Strathspey. Some tunes that masquerade as Strathspeys are actually Marches. There is no Island of March. There may however be a dance.
The most popular style of Irish playing in the New World seems to be Clare (which is a county in Ireland, but is not a dance or a type of tune). This is the style most accurately described above. Other regions of Ireland are distinctive in completely different ways.
Cape Breton music is heavily influenced by the Scots, as they are almost exclusively Scottish emigrants living for many generations in isolation. Because of this, their tunes and the Gaelic language on the island are uncommonly well preserved - so much so that they are more Scottish than the Scots, to a certain extent. Gaelic scholars go there to learn about Scottish culture (according to the Cape Bretoners).
I forgot to mention that the top half of Cape Breton was almost exclusively populated by emigrants from France. They seem to play the same stuff though.
*dusting off my hands* There. Isn't it about time someone made it all crystal clear for the everyone? Now all you need to do is learn Will's 200 common session tunes and you are officially a beginner!
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by Kerri Brown
Re: new on the block
Clear as only slighly muddy water now, Kerri! But that is a MASTERFUL bit of writing describing June's method of the difference between the Irish and the Scottish. *grin*
Also, don't forget that the Scottish style of fiddle playing tends to be "up bow here, down bow there, slur right here, no, don't change bow there!" In other words, bowing is very often "set" in Scottish fiddling, whereas in Irish bowing, it matters little so long as the feeling is there. I've no idea about the whistle.
I was told in Clare not to change bows until I was on a different string, and not to slur across strings. Unless, it was added, you do.
I asked Verena Commins, whose degree is in ethnomusicology and whose thesis was on Galway style playing, what differentiated Galway style playing from any other style, and she basically told me that it was extremely difficult to pinpoint, end of matter.
When interviewing Buddy MacMaster, I asked him what the old way of playing was like, and he told me flat out, "It's hard to describe. When you hear it, you just recognize it as an older way of playing."
Every time you frame a definitive about the music, you can find a jillion ways to disprove the rule. I'm quite sure everyone was trying to be helpful. (and that was supposed to be, "DON'T have to hear" in my whiny little note up further, there.)
Zina
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: new on the block
.Trying to be scholarly about it is always such a gas! I meant to point out that everything I said there was completely unfounded, unresearched, unsupported, and off the top of my head, but my sweetheart baked cookies and I got distracted.
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by Kerri Brown
Re: new on the block
Hi Linda! I sure can't explain the differences between Irish and Scottish music either. But I sure like your teacher's explanation, fiddler on vermouth! I just generally know which a tune/group is when I hear it. I've listened to a lot of both (Battlefield Band, Alasdair Fraser and Silly Wizard, all from Scotland, are favorites of mine as well as the Irish stuff). If you start listening to lots of both your ear will begin to be able to distinguish them.
As to remembering tune names...I'm one of those people who at first *had* to have the name given to me or I couldn't remember the tune. Now I just have to hear a few notes and the rest of the tune turns up in my brain even though I may have no idea what it is. At the end of it I'll say "Ohhhh, that was Dunmore Lasses" or whatever. Having the name first still works faster, though! If I think of a tune title I get a mental image of where on the fingerboard it starts as well as having the tune start unspooling in my head. So I guess it's the same kind of thing cdkrueger experiences. Zina, I think I was about 3 years in when the first few notes would generally make the rest fall into place. Your mileage may vary!
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by soft black stars
Re: new on the block
Just back from the pub, so I'd thought I'd throw 2 cents in (It's all I've got left anyay). I like what Zina says about 'piping tunes'. If you can picture a bagpipe wailing away at the tune, it's probably Scottish.
One thing I notice about Scottish vs. Irish tunes is that the Scottish feel more 'understandable' to me whereas the Irish tunes have a distinct element of 'weirdness' about them.
The old-time American mountain music, bluegrass and country and western owe more to the Scottish (and of course the North Irish) influence than to the rest of Ireland. I think, as an American, I hear something more familiar in the Scottish than I do with the Irish. Of course, It's that weirdness that attracts me to the Irish style, so I continue to bang away at the fiddle until I create something that may approximate it.
Finally, I think the Scotts tunes are far more rigid and martial and orderly whereas the Irish tend to flow and ebb into beautiful circles.
Slan.
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by Caoimghgin
Re: new on the block
Actually, I can remember tune names. I can remember tunes. But I often can't remember the tune until I hear the first three notes. It's very aggravating. What I need is for the tune name to simply make the tune fall into place full blown into my head. It's especially aggravating when you're trying to go from one tune into the other. *sigh*
Hey Kevin, it must be nice to still have two cents left to rub together. I generally come home almost completely penniless. That's when it's time to start going through the sofa cushions.
zls
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: new on the block
My experience from twenty (very short!) years of playing Irish music: 1. everybody here is right (which shouldn
# Posted on November 6th 2001 by Joerg Froese
Re: new on the block
I had similar experience. "That's a lovely tune", said she, "what's it called?".
"The Man of the House", said I.
"It should be 'The Woman of the House!'", she quipped.
"Why on earth would you want to steal the name of another lovely tune away from where it belongs?" I replied, somewhat bemused.
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by Gael Force