As some of you know I have been taking a couple of weeks out from playing to concentrate on listening to others. It has been extremely valuable!!
Take for example one of my favourite albums at the moment - Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill's - Welcome Here Again. Now if you listen to my favourite track with the New Post Office on it and you then compare it to the basic dots provided here under the title of 'The Scartaglen', you almost have a different tune!!!
The message I take from this is clear but I wonder how many of us fall into the trap in our busy lives of ONLY looking at the dots? What a tragedy to not allow ourselves to be influenced and affected by great talents.
Perhaps I should add that my above comments are not to condemn those who use dots, merely a statement that they should be combined. Having listened to some examples over the last few weeks I emphasise Key's comment - it seems they can't be overstated. Equally, to perpetuate the tradition it is sometimes beneficial to record the dots as an addition to the oral tradition - thus ensuring it has a chance to endure.
Both have a place - but must be used side by side.
Remember this? What is "wrong" anyway? What is "right?" I don't read music either, and try to get as much as I can from players and recordings. However, I see nothing wrong with written forms - when used in conjunction with recordings and "listening skills" to learn this music.
After playing music for too many years, one thing I have learned is that the best musicians I have had the pleasure of working with are the ones who feel equally comfortable playing by ear and/or playing from sheet music. They combine and use both their music reading and their listening skills to improve their own playing and abilities and talent.
I usually lean from sheet music, at least for Irish music. If it's a tune I haven't heard before, once I do hear it I make adjustments to it to get it right.
I learn American Old Time music by ear. Seems easier to do that way. In fact, it seems easier for me to play the tunes I don't know than the ones I do.
Perhaps being American it's easier for me to learn Old Time music by ear. Maybe if I was Irish it would be easier to learn Irish music purely by ear.
Anyway, yes, the listening part is absolutely necessary. Unfortunately I'm about to spend 4 months away from electricity so dots is all I gots.
I never ever realised llig that there was a 'wrong' way. I always assumed that the nature of tradition was fluid. Do enlighten us on what is this 'correct' path?
On second thoughts don't bother. The argument is stale and quite honestly more than a little trite. I am just grateful that the world of traditional music is filled with people with a broader mind than yourself.
Without trying to sound like a character in a bad karate movie, there are many "paths" that lead to a tune becoming your own. Take as many as you can and enjoy the journey. Take caution however, in paving the path of the "written notes" and proclaiming permanent and true.
The tunes section of this web site is littered (nay, filled to the gunnels with toxic waste) with tunes that are quite simply wrong. And don't give me any of this "version" sh*te.
fauxcelt, it's a shame that you have never met anyone you could call one of the "the best musicians" who couldn't/didn't read music. Hopefully you will one day.
Seems a shame--within such a strongly aural tradition as Irish trad music--that it's come to this. That people need to be reminded to ***listen*** to the music they're playing.
That's just silly, and it shows that far too many people rely far too much on the dots for playing this music.
And then some of them chime in here and defend the dots...on a thread that merely asks people to listen.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with the dots, except when they become a surrogate for listening. And then it's as wrong as wrong can be.
First off, listening to recordings--though better than relying on the dots--is like picking at a mummified cadaver from the bog compared to hearing someone play live and in person.
Plus you're missing all the brilliant players who don't record.
And the "greats" who do record go about it differently than they would playing in a session or even at a performance. As soo as the mic is turned on, people tend to play within their comfort zone, sticking to prearranged versions and "variations." Not at all the free-wheeling approach they take when the mic is off.
Geez, the dots can be a useful memory aid. But this is music, not literature. And it's an aural tradition. If you really want to play this music well, then close your eyes and use your ears.
fauxcelt, it's a shame that you have never met anyone you could call one of the "the best musicians" who couldn't/didn't read music. Hopefully you will one day.
I just attended (past weekend) a piobaireachd seminar with my son. The guy who led the seminar is well known in the piobaireachd world. He reminded everybody that even this is music from an aural tradition...singing...although it is now notated to death...
BUT piobaireachd has a language all its own that is gaelic language based...I am not being very clear...I'll try again...for every grace note movement in piobaireachd there is a vowel SOUND that corresponds with the notation...a glutteral sound, but one that is recognizeable...but the gentleman made sure to say so that everybody understood that even if you did not know that piobaireachd language, just HUM the tune or sing it first using La La La so you could see where the tune breaths..where a singer may take a breath...very translateable to fiddle stuff both Scottish and irish (I think)
While I am inclined to agree with Will that there is a danger in listening to the 'greats', I think there is an equal danger that we ignore the fact that some are unable to access local players. Consequently,these folk rely largely on CD recording .. Now of course I realise that the internet is a vast arena filled with opportunity for people to access lesser known players but here you come across the fact that the internet is a vast repository of data, one in which you could lose yourself easily. Newcomers need to be guided to quality recordings and to this end Comhaltas should be credited.
However the responsibility of passing on the music lies with everyone of us - particularly I would argue those who use the mustard board. To this end perhaps it would be useful when uploading tunes to also include a couple of links to talented interpretations. In doing so we a) help newcomers 'understand' the music; b) provide examples of what is now known in other fields as 'best practice'; and c) help to perpetuate the aural tradition.
Of course there will be some who would argue it is not their responsibility to find these examples. In which case, why upload them?
'Newcomers need to be guided to quality recordings and to this end Comhaltas should be credited.'
Good grief, no! This is the organisation that has sat on the recordings of two of the finest fiddlers in living memory and done nothing to make them widely available since their initial release on vinyl.
If anyone should take credit for 'quality recordings' it's Claddagh and Gael Linn!
You're talking about what Comhaltas haven't done - can't you give them any credit for what they have done? The Comhaltas Tour LPs , and more recently CDs have some of the best traditional Irish music performances on them ever recorded. I agree about Claddagh and Gael Linn, but I'd say that Mulligan and also the ( whisper it ) English record companies Topic/Trailer/Free Reed/Transatlantic recorded a hell of a lot of good quality traditional Irish music available too, certainly in the 1970s and 1980s. Sad, but I think it's true - a lot of the young musicians today don't listen to these recordings. There was a perfect example earlier this week when there was some discussion about a "McDonagh's" reel. Some people on this site had "discovered " the tune on Michael O'Raghallaigh's 2nd solo concertina CD which came out about 2 years ago. I pointed out that Matt Molloy had recorded it on his first LP, in 1978 ( or thereabout ).
And if you want good traditional recordings, you can't go wrong with the 10 CD collection of "Outlet" recordings from the 1970s, "Celtic Souls" - see earlier discussions.
"The tunes section of this web site is littered (nay, filled to the gunnels with toxic waste) with tunes that are quite simply wrong."
The tunes section of this website is certainly "riddled" with tunes that have mistakes in the transcription, but give me an example of one which is "wrong", and then tell me where I can find the "correct" version, please.
Ah, I love the session (no sarcasm included) Welshman starts a thread on the benefits of listening, Llig agrees with him, and then before you know it they are arguing with each other about whether there is a correct way to play ITM or not. And to make things even better there are side arguments about the merits of recording, and whether Comhaltas are a bunch skumbags or not.
Is there anything we can't argue about?
Arlo
You wrote 'The Comhaltas Tour LPs , and more recently CDs have some of the best traditional Irish music performances on them ever recorded.'
The Comhaltas Tour LPs are largely ignorable and consist of pap for the North American market. Please do let us know about some of these recent CDs which have 'some of the best traditional Irish music performances on them ever recorded' and who has recorded them.
Oh, and if you don't think that *I* know what I'm talking about, then have a good look at the discography section on my site - http://www.irishmusicreview.com.
And, finally, you can go a hell of a long way wrong with that awful collection of Outlet material which includes some pretty dire stuff, as well as Tansey's worst album.
Welshman, I'm one of those people who learned this music at a serious distance from any centers of the tradition. So yes, I relied a fair amount on recordings. And in many ways, those recordings were misleading.
Luckily, I took advantage of access to a scant few people who were immersed in the tradition, who made it clear that recordings were okay, but no where near as good as listening to and playing with real people in real time. So every chance I got, I traveled long distances to hear people play, and I wasn't shy about talking with musicians Like Liz Carroll and Johnny Cunningham and Cathal McConnell when I had a chance. Sometimes it was 600 miles round trip to take in a concert or beggar an hour at their knee learning a tune. In the long run, the face-to-face time mattered far more than all the hours I spent listening to recordings. Without it, my playing would be stuck in recorded mode--I'd sound like a feckin sound track.
So if you live far from any musicians playing this stuff, sure, listen to recordings. Just don't mistake it for the real thing. And don't pass up any opportunities to listen and play with people in person.
Oh good, it wasn't just me who had trouble listening to that clip. Sounded like his strings were tuned to weird notes or something---I couldn't pick out a melody at all.
Yeah, and I don't like all that bouncy stuff, with the bow doing all that fancy, but - to me, at least - unmusical things across all four strings. Sometimes it sounds nice in classical - can't see a use for it meself in trad.
Wow, that has to be my least favorite ever of anything I've ever heard Martin Hayes do. (And I *do* like a lot of what Martin does.) Maybe it was a one-off thing, just to experiment, see what he could do with that approach. Sorry, but I coudn't bear to listen to more than 10 seconds of that....
Reminds me of Kevin Burke listening to some of his earlier recordings and saying (I'm paraphrasing), "Looking back, I slid into notes too much. That just doesn't sound right. No one wanting to sound traditional should do that."
it wasn't the best example of his bow pyrotechnics, but I still think it's cool. I'm not trying any of that myself mind you - too busy trying to keep my bow ON the strings. One of the things I appreciate about Martin Hayes (and Kevin Burke too) is that they're always experimenting with what they can do with the bow. Martin Hayes doesn't play like that all the time - when he does it's pretty fun to watch.
I've heard Martin play live (and I took lessons from Kevin Burke eons ago), and his off-the-string stuff leaves me cold. Kevin's playfulness with the bow strikes me as much more natural (for him!) and less focused on bowed triplets and short bows. (Sometimes Martin's short single-bow playing on jigs sounds like a pick on a mandolin. Meh.)
To each his own. I'm glad for the differences. But I can't help prefering one approach over the other.
Back to the topic, one of the negative impacts of recordings is that quite a few listeners start playing tunes to impress others. Some of "great talents" often grandstand both in studio and live recordings, and many people try to imitate their "performances" blindlessly.
I personally love listening to small kids play simple tunes. There's a lot to learn from their straightforward and "artless" playing styles.
I listen to around 4 hours ITM a day on broadband whilst working - as good if not better than going to session as you are forced to listen and not play.
You don't get the socialising, but you do get a lot more tunes played to the highest standard, that you woudln't normally hear at most sessions.
llig leahcim: "record the dots thus ensuring they have a chance to be wrong for ever and ever and ever"
Welshman: "I never ever realised llig that there was a 'wrong' way."
Welshman - if I am not mistaken, what Michael is saying is that, if there is a mistake in the transcription, due to inaccurate interval recognition, or just a simple slip of the pen, then it stays there forever. If you refer to that same transcription every time to remind yourself of the tune, then you're reinforcing that error every time. There's a difference between that and unconciously altering a tune while playing it.
You'll have fun in Butte, airport, although other than Beoga, the bands aren't as interesting this year as in years past.
I'm not sure I'm going myself, this year. My wife's 50th follows close on An Ri Ra, and that has to take precedence. We may be off camping in the mountains.
But if I'm there, you'll find me in the bar or lobby of the Finlen, rattling tunes around the room.
OK, “MacCruiskeen” – here are just a few examples of – according to you – the musicians whose music was “largely ignoreable”, and “pap for the North American market”.
1978 Comhaltas Tour LP:
Eoin Kenny, Deirdre Shannon, Conal O’Grada, Chris Droney, Seamus MacMathuna.
1983 Comhaltas Tour LP :
Michael Flatley, Tommy Keane, Jimmy McGreevy, Marcas O’Murchu, Michelle O’Sullivan, Cathal Hayden, John Regan, John Carlos, Neil Mulligan, Maeve Donnelly.
1984 Comhaltas Tour LP :
Marcus Hernon, Brid Harper, Seamus Meehan, Joe Burke, Paddy Hayes, Mike Rafferty.
1997 Tour CD – not so many well-known names, but most of them were probably under the age of 25 at the time :
Ned Kelly, Mikey Smith, Sarah-Jane Woods and Brenda McCann.
1998 Tour CD – Brian Fitzgerald, Troy Bannon, Liz Gaughan, Oisin MacDiarmada, Colm Regan, Ernestine Healy.
2004 Tour CD – Fewer players on this tour, but it did include Brendan McGlinchey, Edel Fox, and Joey Doyle.
Now anybody who thinks musicians of that standard and musical integrity would prostitute themselves by playing “pap for the North American market”, has to be full of sh*t.
None of those records or CDs have been posted in the “Recordings” section yet, but I will make a point of doing so.
The “Celtic Souls” collection has a few clunkers in it, but it does include CDs by Seamus Tansey, Finbarr Dwyer, the Belfast “Cherish The Ladies” Trio, the Armagh Piper’s Club, John & James Kelly, and individual tracks from several compilation albums. This collection can be got on eBay for about £15, including postage, and some people claim to have got it for around a fiver! If you know of a better deal, “MacCruiskeen”, let’s hear it. And Tansey’s worst album is better than most flute-players’ best.
You ignored completely my request about giving Comhaltas credit for the recordings they have released. Here are 2 examples of CCE records posted here in the “Recordings” section
The importance of listening
The importance of listening
As some of you know I have been taking a couple of weeks out from playing to concentrate on listening to others. It has been extremely valuable!!
Take for example one of my favourite albums at the moment - Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill's - Welcome Here Again. Now if you listen to my favourite track with the New Post Office on it and you then compare it to the basic dots provided here under the title of 'The Scartaglen', you almost have a different tune!!!
The message I take from this is clear but I wonder how many of us fall into the trap in our busy lives of ONLY looking at the dots? What a tragedy to not allow ourselves to be influenced and affected by great talents.
D
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by WelshGuy
Re: The importance of listening
duh ...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: The importance of listening
Now michael....steady, boy!
Some take-home messages can never be overstated. This is one of them.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: The importance of listening
I know, I know. I said "duh" because I have bang on and on and on about it constantly myself.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: The importance of listening
banged
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: The importance of listening
Perhaps I should add that my above comments are not to condemn those who use dots, merely a statement that they should be combined. Having listened to some examples over the last few weeks I emphasise Key's comment - it seems they can't be overstated. Equally, to perpetuate the tradition it is sometimes beneficial to record the dots as an addition to the oral tradition - thus ensuring it has a chance to endure.
Both have a place - but must be used side by side.
D
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by WelshGuy
Re: The importance of listening
record the dots thus ensuring they have a chance to be wrong for ever and ever and ever
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: The importance of listening
*Must* be? I don't use dots at all...or hardly ever.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: The importance of listening
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14809/comments#comment305323
Remember this? What is "wrong" anyway? What is "right?" I don't read music either, and try to get as much as I can from players and recordings. However, I see nothing wrong with written forms - when used in conjunction with recordings and "listening skills" to learn this music.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The importance of listening
After playing music for too many years, one thing I have learned is that the best musicians I have had the pleasure of working with are the ones who feel equally comfortable playing by ear and/or playing from sheet music. They combine and use both their music reading and their listening skills to improve their own playing and abilities and talent.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: The importance of listening
I usually lean from sheet music, at least for Irish music. If it's a tune I haven't heard before, once I do hear it I make adjustments to it to get it right.
I learn American Old Time music by ear. Seems easier to do that way. In fact, it seems easier for me to play the tunes I don't know than the ones I do.
Perhaps being American it's easier for me to learn Old Time music by ear. Maybe if I was Irish it would be easier to learn Irish music purely by ear.
Anyway, yes, the listening part is absolutely necessary. Unfortunately I'm about to spend 4 months away from electricity so dots is all I gots.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: The importance of listening
I never ever realised llig that there was a 'wrong' way. I always assumed that the nature of tradition was fluid. Do enlighten us on what is this 'correct' path?
D
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by WelshGuy
Re: The importance of listening
On second thoughts don't bother. The argument is stale and quite honestly more than a little trite. I am just grateful that the world of traditional music is filled with people with a broader mind than yourself.
D
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by WelshGuy
Re: The importance of listening
Without trying to sound like a character in a bad karate movie, there are many "paths" that lead to a tune becoming your own. Take as many as you can and enjoy the journey. Take caution however, in paving the path of the "written notes" and proclaiming permanent and true.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The importance of listening
The tunes section of this web site is littered (nay, filled to the gunnels with toxic waste) with tunes that are quite simply wrong. And don't give me any of this "version" sh*te.
fauxcelt, it's a shame that you have never met anyone you could call one of the "the best musicians" who couldn't/didn't read music. Hopefully you will one day.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: The importance of listening
Seems a shame--within such a strongly aural tradition as Irish trad music--that it's come to this. That people need to be reminded to ***listen*** to the music they're playing.
That's just silly, and it shows that far too many people rely far too much on the dots for playing this music.
And then some of them chime in here and defend the dots...on a thread that merely asks people to listen.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with the dots, except when they become a surrogate for listening. And then it's as wrong as wrong can be.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The importance of listening
Surely, listening is important. But are you only listening to the recordings of "great talents"?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by slainte
Re: The importance of listening
Good point, sensei slainte.
First off, listening to recordings--though better than relying on the dots--is like picking at a mummified cadaver from the bog compared to hearing someone play live and in person.
Plus you're missing all the brilliant players who don't record.
And the "greats" who do record go about it differently than they would playing in a session or even at a performance. As soo as the mic is turned on, people tend to play within their comfort zone, sticking to prearranged versions and "variations." Not at all the free-wheeling approach they take when the mic is off.
Geez, the dots can be a useful memory aid. But this is music, not literature. And it's an aural tradition. If you really want to play this music well, then close your eyes and use your ears.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The importance of listening
fauxcelt, it's a shame that you have never met anyone you could call one of the "the best musicians" who couldn't/didn't read music. Hopefully you will one day.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
He has met me.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: The importance of listening
Listen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgp-3aK_E0Q
Listen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byIciYMscy4
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by drone
Re: The importance of listening
I just attended (past weekend) a piobaireachd seminar with my son. The guy who led the seminar is well known in the piobaireachd world. He reminded everybody that even this is music from an aural tradition...singing...although it is now notated to death...
BUT piobaireachd has a language all its own that is gaelic language based...I am not being very clear...I'll try again...for every grace note movement in piobaireachd there is a vowel SOUND that corresponds with the notation...a glutteral sound, but one that is recognizeable...but the gentleman made sure to say so that everybody understood that even if you did not know that piobaireachd language, just HUM the tune or sing it first using La La La so you could see where the tune breaths..where a singer may take a breath...very translateable to fiddle stuff both Scottish and irish (I think)
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: The importance of listening
While I am inclined to agree with Will that there is a danger in listening to the 'greats', I think there is an equal danger that we ignore the fact that some are unable to access local players. Consequently,these folk rely largely on CD recording .. Now of course I realise that the internet is a vast arena filled with opportunity for people to access lesser known players but here you come across the fact that the internet is a vast repository of data, one in which you could lose yourself easily. Newcomers need to be guided to quality recordings and to this end Comhaltas should be credited.
However the responsibility of passing on the music lies with everyone of us - particularly I would argue those who use the mustard board. To this end perhaps it would be useful when uploading tunes to also include a couple of links to talented interpretations. In doing so we a) help newcomers 'understand' the music; b) provide examples of what is now known in other fields as 'best practice'; and c) help to perpetuate the aural tradition.
Of course there will be some who would argue it is not their responsibility to find these examples. In which case, why upload them?
D
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by WelshGuy
Re: The importance of listening
'Newcomers need to be guided to quality recordings and to this end Comhaltas should be credited.'
Good grief, no! This is the organisation that has sat on the recordings of two of the finest fiddlers in living memory and done nothing to make them widely available since their initial release on vinyl.
If anyone should take credit for 'quality recordings' it's Claddagh and Gael Linn!
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: The importance of listening
You're talking about what Comhaltas haven't done - can't you give them any credit for what they have done? The Comhaltas Tour LPs , and more recently CDs have some of the best traditional Irish music performances on them ever recorded. I agree about Claddagh and Gael Linn, but I'd say that Mulligan and also the ( whisper it ) English record companies Topic/Trailer/Free Reed/Transatlantic recorded a hell of a lot of good quality traditional Irish music available too, certainly in the 1970s and 1980s. Sad, but I think it's true - a lot of the young musicians today don't listen to these recordings. There was a perfect example earlier this week when there was some discussion about a "McDonagh's" reel. Some people on this site had "discovered " the tune on Michael O'Raghallaigh's 2nd solo concertina CD which came out about 2 years ago. I pointed out that Matt Molloy had recorded it on his first LP, in 1978 ( or thereabout ).
And if you want good traditional recordings, you can't go wrong with the 10 CD collection of "Outlet" recordings from the 1970s, "Celtic Souls" - see earlier discussions.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Kenny
Question for "Llig"..
"The tunes section of this web site is littered (nay, filled to the gunnels with toxic waste) with tunes that are quite simply wrong."
The tunes section of this website is certainly "riddled" with tunes that have mistakes in the transcription, but give me an example of one which is "wrong", and then tell me where I can find the "correct" version, please.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Kenny
Re: The importance of listening
Ah, I love the session (no sarcasm included) Welshman starts a thread on the benefits of listening, Llig agrees with him, and then before you know it they are arguing with each other about whether there is a correct way to play ITM or not. And to make things even better there are side arguments about the merits of recording, and whether Comhaltas are a bunch skumbags or not.
Is there anything we can't argue about?
Arlo
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Nopstavon
Re: The importance of listening
Dearie, me, Kenny,
You really don't know what you're talking about.
You wrote 'The Comhaltas Tour LPs , and more recently CDs have some of the best traditional Irish music performances on them ever recorded.'
The Comhaltas Tour LPs are largely ignorable and consist of pap for the North American market. Please do let us know about some of these recent CDs which have 'some of the best traditional Irish music performances on them ever recorded' and who has recorded them.
Oh, and if you don't think that *I* know what I'm talking about, then have a good look at the discography section on my site - http://www.irishmusicreview.com.
And, finally, you can go a hell of a long way wrong with that awful collection of Outlet material which includes some pretty dire stuff, as well as Tansey's worst album.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: The importance of listening
Welshman, I'm one of those people who learned this music at a serious distance from any centers of the tradition. So yes, I relied a fair amount on recordings. And in many ways, those recordings were misleading.
Luckily, I took advantage of access to a scant few people who were immersed in the tradition, who made it clear that recordings were okay, but no where near as good as listening to and playing with real people in real time. So every chance I got, I traveled long distances to hear people play, and I wasn't shy about talking with musicians Like Liz Carroll and Johnny Cunningham and Cathal McConnell when I had a chance. Sometimes it was 600 miles round trip to take in a concert or beggar an hour at their knee learning a tune. In the long run, the face-to-face time mattered far more than all the hours I spent listening to recordings. Without it, my playing would be stuck in recorded mode--I'd sound like a feckin sound track.
So if you live far from any musicians playing this stuff, sure, listen to recordings. Just don't mistake it for the real thing. And don't pass up any opportunities to listen and play with people in person.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The importance of listening
Dang, Drone, put out some red flags before you unleash something like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byIciYMscy4
on us next time. You'll have half of us whimpering in the corner. Ouch.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: The importance of listening
Er ... actually I was whimpering in the corner with *both* of the YouTube links Drone posted.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: The importance of listening
Oh good, it wasn't just me who had trouble listening to that clip. Sounded like his strings were tuned to weird notes or something---I couldn't pick out a melody at all.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by kennedy
Re: The importance of listening
Yeah, and I don't like all that bouncy stuff, with the bow doing all that fancy, but - to me, at least - unmusical things across all four strings. Sometimes it sounds nice in classical - can't see a use for it meself in trad.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: The importance of listening
Does this qualify as bow bouncing? If so then I'm for it...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DcRCxRtsMMY
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by airport
Re: The importance of listening
Wow, that has to be my least favorite ever of anything I've ever heard Martin Hayes do. (And I *do* like a lot of what Martin does.) Maybe it was a one-off thing, just to experiment, see what he could do with that approach. Sorry, but I coudn't bear to listen to more than 10 seconds of that....
Reminds me of Kevin Burke listening to some of his earlier recordings and saying (I'm paraphrasing), "Looking back, I slid into notes too much. That just doesn't sound right. No one wanting to sound traditional should do that."
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The importance of listening
it wasn't the best example of his bow pyrotechnics, but I still think it's cool. I'm not trying any of that myself mind you - too busy trying to keep my bow ON the strings. One of the things I appreciate about Martin Hayes (and Kevin Burke too) is that they're always experimenting with what they can do with the bow. Martin Hayes doesn't play like that all the time - when he does it's pretty fun to watch.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by airport
Re: The importance of listening
I've heard Martin play live (and I took lessons from Kevin Burke eons ago), and his off-the-string stuff leaves me cold. Kevin's playfulness with the bow strikes me as much more natural (for him!) and less focused on bowed triplets and short bows. (Sometimes Martin's short single-bow playing on jigs sounds like a pick on a mandolin. Meh.)
To each his own. I'm glad for the differences. But I can't help prefering one approach over the other.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The importance of listening
I feel exactly the same way, Will. That's horrible. Here's Martin Hayes' best fiddle playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TABSf0AcdVQ
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by slainte
Re: The importance of listening
Ah, well, and here's Kevin playing a jig--lovely bowing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icaL8o2wYTs
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The importance of listening
Back to the topic, one of the negative impacts of recordings is that quite a few listeners start playing tunes to impress others. Some of "great talents" often grandstand both in studio and live recordings, and many people try to imitate their "performances" blindlessly.
I personally love listening to small kids play simple tunes. There's a lot to learn from their straightforward and "artless" playing styles.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by slainte
Re: The importance of listening
Sorry Slan, diverting again - here's Kevin Burke wearing a very skinny tie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHPSj5Eb8oY
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by airport
Re: The importance of listening
Oh and Will, I may come to that Butte fest just so we can continue this discussion over a pint and some tunes
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by airport
Re: The importance of listening
I listen to around 4 hours ITM a day on broadband whilst working - as good if not better than going to session as you are forced to listen and not play.
You don't get the socialising, but you do get a lot more tunes played to the highest standard, that you woudln't normally hear at most sessions.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: The importance of listening
llig leahcim: "record the dots thus ensuring they have a chance to be wrong for ever and ever and ever"
Welshman: "I never ever realised llig that there was a 'wrong' way."
Welshman - if I am not mistaken, what Michael is saying is that, if there is a mistake in the transcription, due to inaccurate interval recognition, or just a simple slip of the pen, then it stays there forever. If you refer to that same transcription every time to remind yourself of the tune, then you're reinforcing that error every time. There's a difference between that and unconciously altering a tune while playing it.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The importance of listening
Granama, you'll find examples of this on almost every page of O'Neill's "1001", which is why O'Neill isn't for the beginner.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The importance of listening
You'll have fun in Butte, airport, although other than Beoga, the bands aren't as interesting this year as in years past.
I'm not sure I'm going myself, this year. My wife's 50th follows close on An Ri Ra, and that has to take precedence. We may be off camping in the mountains.
But if I'm there, you'll find me in the bar or lobby of the Finlen, rattling tunes around the room.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The importance of listening
OK, “MacCruiskeen” – here are just a few examples of – according to you – the musicians whose music was “largely ignoreable”, and “pap for the North American market”.
1978 Comhaltas Tour LP:
Eoin Kenny, Deirdre Shannon, Conal O’Grada, Chris Droney, Seamus MacMathuna.
1983 Comhaltas Tour LP :
Michael Flatley, Tommy Keane, Jimmy McGreevy, Marcas O’Murchu, Michelle O’Sullivan, Cathal Hayden, John Regan, John Carlos, Neil Mulligan, Maeve Donnelly.
1984 Comhaltas Tour LP :
Marcus Hernon, Brid Harper, Seamus Meehan, Joe Burke, Paddy Hayes, Mike Rafferty.
1997 Tour CD – not so many well-known names, but most of them were probably under the age of 25 at the time :
Ned Kelly, Mikey Smith, Sarah-Jane Woods and Brenda McCann.
1998 Tour CD – Brian Fitzgerald, Troy Bannon, Liz Gaughan, Oisin MacDiarmada, Colm Regan, Ernestine Healy.
2004 Tour CD – Fewer players on this tour, but it did include Brendan McGlinchey, Edel Fox, and Joey Doyle.
Now anybody who thinks musicians of that standard and musical integrity would prostitute themselves by playing “pap for the North American market”, has to be full of sh*t.
None of those records or CDs have been posted in the “Recordings” section yet, but I will make a point of doing so.
The “Celtic Souls” collection has a few clunkers in it, but it does include CDs by Seamus Tansey, Finbarr Dwyer, the Belfast “Cherish The Ladies” Trio, the Armagh Piper’s Club, John & James Kelly, and individual tracks from several compilation albums. This collection can be got on eBay for about £15, including postage, and some people claim to have got it for around a fiver! If you know of a better deal, “MacCruiskeen”, let’s hear it. And Tansey’s worst album is better than most flute-players’ best.
You ignored completely my request about giving Comhaltas credit for the recordings they have released. Here are 2 examples of CCE records posted here in the “Recordings” section
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display.php/2936
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display.php/2934
….and the person who posted them …….??
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Kenny
Re: The importance of listening
Kenny,
If there was ever to be a world's missing the point competition, you'd fend off all-comers.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: The importance of listening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TABSf0AcdVQ
Great ink Slainte , but would someone tell him to stop tapping his foot four to the floor !
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by piobagusfidil