I have been having a think about the role of G# and FNat in a lot of the tunes that I play. I started off adding most of this post to a previous discussion about Cnat on flutes, but I decided to flesh it out and ask it in a new thread here. I am mostly looking at Scottish examples for me to play on the flute.
It seems to me that often Modal music got transcribed and then "straightened out" by the transcribers, e.g. the upper G# in fiddle versions of a lot of bagpipe tunes. The lower G should never be a G sharp in this situation anyway which can be a good indicator for me whether the tune was filched from a bagpipe version or not.
Looking for good recordings is not always the answer here since the straightened versions are often recorded as much or more often than the originals.
My problem is deciding how to play these. Copying the fiddlers is all very well, as is copying the pipers, or sometimes mixing them. At the moment I tend to try both and see what I like at each point, but is there any guide to what is stylistically and conventionally more acceptable. Or am I on my own with regards to questions of taste here?
And sometimes if the note is a G# on a weak note (e.g 4th quaver of a reel) e.g. in Margaree reel, second part second bar | abagNAT fdfg# | abaf... (i.e. a leading G# into an A) I find that a judicious slide up from f over the G to A can produce a nice effect. Obviously a "fudge" in the strict sense, but can work well.
And by the way, I can play a passably good half.holed G# and I do also have the option of a G# key on some of my flutes... So decisions of this nature are not about laziness for me.
I also have a version of Calum Crubach written out with one sharp, but also obviously a Pipe tune originally. Here the Cs are all either natural in the middle of a bcd triplet or sharp everywhere else. And in this case, I really wouldn't regard it as cheating to play either in the triplets, or even some other construct altogether.
FNat and F# present a similar conundrum for me. e.g. James Scott Skinner's sheet music for Tullochgorum with variations seems to have an awful lot of questionable decisions to be made about F or F#. F# sounds more modern but to me less authentic (whatever that is...) than Fnat. Sticking to what he has written only seems to give the impression that he played either anywhere, depending on how he felt at that moment. Although not all work both ways. I've gone through picking which I want where and I stick to it. I seem to be on FNat mostly, except where an F# is playing a clear role as a passing note connecting some others or contrasting with a nearby Fnat. Interestingly there are no low F# in the version I ended up with!
I do not think Skinner played "weak" notes.
He definitely experimented with modulation.
So experiment. The question is ~ what works while playing in a session(?) Many players wish to play tunes 'the way they learnt 'em' But sometimes you play an interesting modulation & someone will love it. It seems to either work or crash.
In speaking of bagpipes consider uilleann players.
I don't know about highland pipes but plenty of uilleann players modulate . . . & they throw in that ghost note . . . listen to some of Liam O'Flynn's solos. Another composer who seems to use modulations which are hard to pin down is Paddy Fahey.
It is interesting though you are considering the older pipe music.
The slide you are describing certainly is a nice effect on an open-holed flute. Do they use it with Highland pipes? The Scottish snap seems to be prevalent. In which case you need a 'crisp' G#
Hi Muse,
Playing in a session for me is more about conformity with what everyone else is playing. Or at least not clashing badly. I'm thinking about these things more for arranged playing. Although if I'm introducing a new tune then I have a good chance of influencing the setting.
I learnt the Margaree reel from Chris Norman at Boxwood last summer and he plays with GNat except where the G# is used to lead into an A at the start of the next bar. He's uses the G# key on his flute for it if I recall correctly. I will dig out the CD and check what he does there. His setting is pretty much what I am aiming for.
The highland pipes don't have a G# though my Garvie session pipes do. Therefore there are no G#s in the highland piping tradition. Once these tunes move to the fiddle they often seem to acquire the G# though.
I have posted (in the comments) the abc for the version of the Margaree reel that I play - One open question is the g at the end of the first repetition of the last part. i.e. third last bar of the ABC. from playing, I tend towards a GNat here too.
So was this a particularly ignorant queston or does no one have anything to say about it? Or should I have asked a question like "So, what rodents remind you most of each instrument and their players?" instead?
Which ever notes you choose make sure it is fun.
That is usually what gets people to join in
The question is not ignorant so much as it is tedious.
Oh yes; we do tedium here. The clinical term is insomnia.
Sorry if I'm sounding a but petulant by the way, but I'd hoped for more helpful answers. I'm a Scot living in Hamburg and am somewhat lacking in local acquaintances with enough of a clue to ask here.
But this is, as pointed out above, an Irish Traditional Music site - I'm not sure what other sites there are that may be able to help you more - maybe some of the piping sites will be more useful for questions like this, as I think there are probably quite a few pipers dabbling with the flute, but definitely a lot playing playing whistles. Again, good luck to you.
Sorry, "crackpot", but I come to this website to discuss Irish music, not Scottish, apart from correcting the stupid mistakes some people make when they insist on posting Scottish tunes here.
I wonder if you know about this -
I have tape recordings of a few Scottish flute players which you might be interested in. I'll send you a pm this weekend.
[ RonP- will give you a call this weekend. Hope all is well with you and family. How about the Orkney festival - have you seen the line-up yet ? ]
My pleasure Crackpot. The founding members were apparently Irish players. Some early discussions concerned how far to venture beyond the Irish. If the Irish tradition has a strong foundation it is due to both the purist & those enjoy listening to & playing the music of, at least, their closest neighbors. Protest Scottish music if you must . . . this site will continue to discuss the Irish music you cherish as well as relative traditions.
I think it's an interesting question. I came across the same problem when submitting this tune http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3526 which has a high G#. I was told that it was a bagpipe tune, and that the # should be natural. Whoever it was who pounced on me has still not replied to my comment that if it was a bagpipe tune, then why was there a high B? I think the tendency in Scottish music is to be overly purist about these things. In the end it doesn't matter unless you are actually changing the essence of the tune. The reality is that these notes get changed all the time in Scottish and Irish music, according to how the musician "feels" the essence of the tune. Sometimes this can lead to whole tunes becoming minor when they were once major or vice versa. Off the top of my head and example of this is The Merry Old Woman as listed in O'Neill's and Scully Casey's (aka Quilty Shore). Maybe someone at some point was playing from O'Neill's and played it by accident in the minor key (Gdor), or maybe they tried it like that deliberately as an experiment and liked it that way. They played it to someone else like that, and it got passed on from there. Might have been Scully Casey.. who knows?
I think that the importance of the issue of whether to worry about what is "acceptable" or not depends on how good you are at playing and how much experience you have with the music. If you're a beginner who relies on sheetmusic, then of course you're going to worry about what notes you should be playing. If you've been playing for years and immersed yourself in the music and listened to a lot of great players, you don't have to worry about what is "stylistically and conventionally more acceptable", because that happens all on its own. You can breathe your own life into the tune in the way that you want to.
On the other hand, perhaps that's a very traditional Irish way of looking at things. Scottish music has a whole different mindset regarding issues of convention and style. But as pointed out above, this is a website for Irish music, so what you're gonna get is the opinion of Irish musicians.
Hi Kenny - that's quite some line-up for a Scottish festival indeed! However, looks like there'll be several guitar players around with some of these bands (although all very good players, as far as I can see) - so options form me taking the guitar out of it's case may be limited - having said that, I'd say the craic'd be good. I'll speak to the boss here!
G# and FNat - Modes.
G# and FNat - Modes.
I have been having a think about the role of G# and FNat in a lot of the tunes that I play. I started off adding most of this post to a previous discussion about Cnat on flutes, but I decided to flesh it out and ask it in a new thread here. I am mostly looking at Scottish examples for me to play on the flute.
It seems to me that often Modal music got transcribed and then "straightened out" by the transcribers, e.g. the upper G# in fiddle versions of a lot of bagpipe tunes. The lower G should never be a G sharp in this situation anyway which can be a good indicator for me whether the tune was filched from a bagpipe version or not.
Looking for good recordings is not always the answer here since the straightened versions are often recorded as much or more often than the originals.
My problem is deciding how to play these. Copying the fiddlers is all very well, as is copying the pipers, or sometimes mixing them. At the moment I tend to try both and see what I like at each point, but is there any guide to what is stylistically and conventionally more acceptable. Or am I on my own with regards to questions of taste here?
And sometimes if the note is a G# on a weak note (e.g 4th quaver of a reel) e.g. in Margaree reel, second part second bar | abagNAT fdfg# | abaf... (i.e. a leading G# into an A) I find that a judicious slide up from f over the G to A can produce a nice effect. Obviously a "fudge" in the strict sense, but can work well.
And by the way, I can play a passably good half.holed G# and I do also have the option of a G# key on some of my flutes... So decisions of this nature are not about laziness for me.
I also have a version of Calum Crubach written out with one sharp, but also obviously a Pipe tune originally. Here the Cs are all either natural in the middle of a bcd triplet or sharp everywhere else. And in this case, I really wouldn't regard it as cheating to play either in the triplets, or even some other construct altogether.
FNat and F# present a similar conundrum for me. e.g. James Scott Skinner's sheet music for Tullochgorum with variations seems to have an awful lot of questionable decisions to be made about F or F#. F# sounds more modern but to me less authentic (whatever that is...) than Fnat. Sticking to what he has written only seems to give the impression that he played either anywhere, depending on how he felt at that moment. Although not all work both ways. I've gone through picking which I want where and I stick to it. I seem to be on FNat mostly, except where an F# is playing a clear role as a passing note connecting some others or contrasting with a nearby Fnat. Interestingly there are no low F# in the version I ended up with!
Chris.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
I do not think Skinner played "weak" notes.
He definitely experimented with modulation.
So experiment. The question is ~ what works while playing in a session(?) Many players wish to play tunes 'the way they learnt 'em' But sometimes you play an interesting modulation & someone will love it. It seems to either work or crash.
In speaking of bagpipes consider uilleann players.
I don't know about highland pipes but plenty of uilleann players modulate . . . & they throw in that ghost note . . . listen to some of Liam O'Flynn's solos. Another composer who seems to use modulations which are hard to pin down is Paddy Fahey.
It is interesting though you are considering the older pipe music.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Ben Steen
. . . Margaree Reel
I have not heard this reel; http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/3265
I recognize 2 of the commentators as a pair who can help answer your questions. Which of the recordings do you like? I was wondering how Chris Norman plays the tune. http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1441
The slide you are describing certainly is a nice effect on an open-holed flute. Do they use it with Highland pipes? The Scottish snap seems to be prevalent. In which case you need a 'crisp' G#
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Hi Muse,
Playing in a session for me is more about conformity with what everyone else is playing. Or at least not clashing badly. I'm thinking about these things more for arranged playing. Although if I'm introducing a new tune then I have a good chance of influencing the setting.
I learnt the Margaree reel from Chris Norman at Boxwood last summer and he plays with GNat except where the G# is used to lead into an A at the start of the next bar. He's uses the G# key on his flute for it if I recall correctly. I will dig out the CD and check what he does there. His setting is pretty much what I am aiming for.
The highland pipes don't have a G# though my Garvie session pipes do. Therefore there are no G#s in the highland piping tradition. Once these tunes move to the fiddle they often seem to acquire the G# though.
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
I have posted (in the comments) the abc for the version of the Margaree reel that I play - One open question is the g at the end of the first repetition of the last part. i.e. third last bar of the ABC. from playing, I tend towards a GNat here too.
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
So was this a particularly ignorant queston or does no one have anything to say about it? Or should I have asked a question like "So, what rodents remind you most of each instrument and their players?" instead?
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Which ever notes you choose make sure it is fun.
That is usually what gets people to join in
The question is not ignorant so much as it is tedious.
Oh yes; we do tedium here. The clinical term is insomnia.
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
I guess actual questions about how to play the music are rather tedious compared to elevated considerations of session politics etc.
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Maybe because it's a question about Scottish music on an Irish music site?
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Precisely.
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by Kenny
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Plenty of Scottish music and players of Scottish music here...
Kenny, you're in Scotland and play the flute - perhaps you might have something to say about Scottish music on the Flute?
Anyway, I'll look elsewhere for sensible comments about the music. Thanks to TheMuse for actually addressing the question.
'bye,
Chris.
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Sorry if I'm sounding a but petulant by the way, but I'd hoped for more helpful answers. I'm a Scot living in Hamburg and am somewhat lacking in local acquaintances with enough of a clue to ask here.
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Crackpot - try listening to what Iain MacDonald, or Chris Norman do with any pipe tunes they might play on the flute. Good luck.
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by Ron P
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
But this is, as pointed out above, an Irish Traditional Music site - I'm not sure what other sites there are that may be able to help you more - maybe some of the piping sites will be more useful for questions like this, as I think there are probably quite a few pipers dabbling with the flute, but definitely a lot playing playing whistles. Again, good luck to you.
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by Ron P
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Sorry, "crackpot", but I come to this website to discuss Irish music, not Scottish, apart from correcting the stupid mistakes some people make when they insist on posting Scottish tunes here.
I wonder if you know about this -
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2900
I have tape recordings of a few Scottish flute players which you might be interested in. I'll send you a pm this weekend.
[ RonP- will give you a call this weekend. Hope all is well with you and family. How about the Orkney festival - have you seen the line-up yet ? ]
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by Kenny
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
My pleasure Crackpot. The founding members were apparently Irish players. Some early discussions concerned how far to venture beyond the Irish. If the Irish tradition has a strong foundation it is due to both the purist & those enjoy listening to & playing the music of, at least, their closest neighbors. Protest Scottish music if you must . . . this site will continue to discuss the Irish music you cherish as well as relative traditions.
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
I think it's an interesting question. I came across the same problem when submitting this tune http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3526 which has a high G#. I was told that it was a bagpipe tune, and that the # should be natural. Whoever it was who pounced on me has still not replied to my comment that if it was a bagpipe tune, then why was there a high B? I think the tendency in Scottish music is to be overly purist about these things. In the end it doesn't matter unless you are actually changing the essence of the tune. The reality is that these notes get changed all the time in Scottish and Irish music, according to how the musician "feels" the essence of the tune. Sometimes this can lead to whole tunes becoming minor when they were once major or vice versa. Off the top of my head and example of this is The Merry Old Woman as listed in O'Neill's and Scully Casey's (aka Quilty Shore). Maybe someone at some point was playing from O'Neill's and played it by accident in the minor key (Gdor), or maybe they tried it like that deliberately as an experiment and liked it that way. They played it to someone else like that, and it got passed on from there. Might have been Scully Casey.. who knows?
I think that the importance of the issue of whether to worry about what is "acceptable" or not depends on how good you are at playing and how much experience you have with the music. If you're a beginner who relies on sheetmusic, then of course you're going to worry about what notes you should be playing. If you've been playing for years and immersed yourself in the music and listened to a lot of great players, you don't have to worry about what is "stylistically and conventionally more acceptable", because that happens all on its own. You can breathe your own life into the tune in the way that you want to.
On the other hand, perhaps that's a very traditional Irish way of looking at things. Scottish music has a whole different mindset regarding issues of convention and style. But as pointed out above, this is a website for Irish music, so what you're gonna get is the opinion of Irish musicians.
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: G# and FNat - Modes.
Hi Kenny - that's quite some line-up for a Scottish festival indeed! However, looks like there'll be several guitar players around with some of these bands (although all very good players, as far as I can see) - so options form me taking the guitar out of it's case may be limited - having said that, I'd say the craic'd be good. I'll speak to the boss here!
# Posted on April 19th 2008 by Ron P