I'm currently in the process of buying a new violin to replace my £160 student thing, as it has some neck issues that I was told wouldn’t be worth repairing. So off I went down to my local violin shop, which was highly recommended, to see what sort of thing they had in my price range (around £450). I haven’t been playing very long so I didn’t want to go overboard in terms of buying something that I wouldn’t warrant, I just want something that plays well and has the correct neck angle and wont restrict my progress.
I tried out a German fiddle from 1981 for £360, which played a lot better but didn’t completely win me over on tone and then I tried the only other violin remotely in my price range, another German one from 1940 going for £500.
I really like the sound of this one, and it plays really easily and has the right balance of smoothness and clarity compared to my dull and fuzzy student thing. I’m completely happy to pay £500 for the sound it makes, but its not in great condition. I’m not bothered at all about what it looks like, the problem is that I don’t want it to just fall apart in my hands one day.
The things I can see wrong with it are that the ribs aren’t an even distance away from the edge of the back and belly the whole way round, the end pin is pulled up towards the tailpiece, the joints at the C ribs to the other ribs are a bit scruffy and there is a lot of white stuff visible between the ribs and the back and belly (old glue?). There are other things like dings round the edge of the belly and just general scratches to the varnish but I’m not concerned about these as they aren’t structural.
Should I be concerned about these things? And do you think that £500 is a reasonable price? (I know it is difficult to answer this without seeing it). I’m not for one second suggesting that the owner of the shop is trying to rip me off, as I’ve heard that he is very honest and seems to me like a very nice guy, I just don’t know anything about violins and wondered what you people thought.
I’m going back to the shop tomorrow with it (and hopefully buying it) so I’ll ask all these things then, I just thought I would ask here too
Thanks a lot
Jake
p.s sorry if these questions are impossible to answer over the internet and I’ve wasted your time
p.p.s. the violin is unlabeled, whether this means he doesn’t know who made it, I don’t know
An old "alley cat" of a fiddle that looks like it has been in a load of fights yet still sounds sweet is a great thing, but.... only at the right price.
To me £500 sounds too much with the sort of issues you describe. Add £500 to the cost of having them professionally sorted and is that what the fiddle would be worth, I wonder?
When you pay the extra that a dealer charges, you should get some sort of guarantees. What would they give you for it if you trade it in on an "upgrade" in due course? Some dealers have fairly specific terms on that.
What was that great quote on one of these threads?
If I sell it to you, it's a violin.
If I buy it from you, it's a fiddle.
Seriously, can you take someone with you to have a look at this thing? Issues like the type of glue used, and whether the oddities are easy or not to repair, will affect its saleability. In addition, there are things that look cheap to repair and aren't (and vice versa).
There are always plenty of fiddles out there! But if you like it, I don't see why you shouldn't get a knowledgeable person to accompany you to have a further look at it.
I have a German violin and bow both dating from the end of the 19th century. The older the better is what I think when it comes to german models!
I got mine for about £500 from a really good little shop in Wheldrake near York...if you're in the area, try it out, it's on the main street through the village!
can you tell whether the thing is in disrepair or was just not put together that well in the first place? this is important. You talk of scruffy joints ... have they come apart or did they never fit. look closely, you should be able to tell. 68 years is not an old fiddle, can you assertion who had it before?
Mark H (decent as always!) doesn't mention three that he has listed at danceofdelight.co.uk at less than that price. Not too far from Oxford.
Is this one with Roger C?
I wouldn't be a in a big hurry here!
Tom
The problems with the instrument sound like they may be only cosmetic, in which case they're nothing to worry about if you like the sound. If you see cracks, and odd neck angle, or evidence of major repairs like a sound post patch, then that's something to worry about.
If you really like the fiddle but are worried about the condition, ask if the shop let you take it to an independent luthier for an appraisal and estimate of any needed repairs.
I haven't got any contact details, but try getting in touch with Tom Paley, who's only down in London ( not that far from Oxford ) who deals in nice-sounding fiddles, being a musician himself.
If you're on the Milton Keynes side of Oxford I could put you in touch with a friend of mine who does some work on repair/restoration, take a look at it for you and perhaps give you an idea of what may or may not be wrong with it. And probably, as Screetch says, most importantly what it might cost to put it into playing order. Best of luck!
All the violins come with a years Guarantee and he said that if you look after a fiddle he will buy it back for the price you bought it for, which is what the person who recommended this shop did. And like i said before, this shop comes highly recommended which i why im even considering it.
Can I ask which shop it is? If it's Waters violins in Wallingford I'd second the recommendation that it's a great place to buy a fiddle.
Having said that, it's worth taking some time over buying a new fiddle and look at quite a few before you make a decision. Another great shop is Bridgewood and Neitzert in London. Really helpful staff and a good range of instruments and prices.
I take all my students there when they need a new instrument and haven't been disappointed yet. Good luck with it and hope you find a nice one.
Sorry, forgot to say you should take it to someone else for a second opinion and to hear them play it. The sound under your ear is so different from what comes across to listeners.
They should give you time to do that if you ask them. Just gone through the buying process too and found it really reassuring to hear other peoples thoughts.
I am sorry to say that I have been told that the Wheldrake business is no longer on the go. My sister used to use him for repairs etc, as did I, with him being only just down the road from me. His work was excellent, but I understand that his delivery times were getting a bit long. (If I'm wrong, I shall be delighted to be told so!). I've checked the latest Phone book for our area, but can't find him.
Ebor / DJF
I also tried to contact Dave Hodgson to get my bow rehaired, but could not get through - maybe I'll pop by sometime. His contacts are
David I Hodgson
Wheldrake
01904-448782 http://www.dihodgson.co.uk
I went to the violin shop in Beverley and found them excellent, and with a good range of fiddles
With the end pin pulled up towards the tailpiece, if you cannot stick a toothpick in there to shim the end pin, be aware that a luthier could alter the tone of the violin substantially if the bottom block were replaced.
Many of these issues are what the tone of the instrument is a bout, and if you fix them it changes.
I would not put the the other issues at the top of the list, but they could have similar outcomes from a luthier.
I have been away or I would have responded sooner.
White stuff at the corners, BAD. I don't know how many fiddle I've seen and repaired with the wrong glue that someone tried to use. If anything goes wrong, it is a VERY expensive repair when it could have been cheap. I agree that you should always get a second opinion on any fiddle purchase. My experiences have shown that no two fiddles are alike. If you don't love the fiddle, keep looking. German fiddles range from Very good to crap. There are plenty of good ones so keep looking.
A good key to the quality of an instrument, believe it or not, is the button. A thin button is a cheap instrument. Also look to the carving quality of the scroll. It tells a lot about the maker.
The Sound is most important. If it isn't what you're looking for, keep looking. I've found some wonderful American made instruments that don't cost an arm and a leg.
Thats interesting, I have always looked at the scroll as indicator of quality but never the button - by which I asume you mean the end pin (sorry my terminology)
What would a thin button or vica versa a thick button look like?
Just buy a good fiddle and find someone to properly set it up. I have found a garage sale (French) fiddle with no label that plays better than any fiddle I have in my collection.
It took 3 years of Bridges,Strings and Sound posts to get the sound I wanted and the colors I knew this fiddle should have.
Setting a fiddle would be like balancing a pencil on it's point and any combination of change in the set up will drastically enhance or degrade the tone.
I find that a change of strings (Brands)require a change of bridge configuration and or sound post position adjustment,
So what I am saying is don't get discouraged. Find something you like and have someone set it up properly. Best to learn to do this yourself, I have made it my passion.
The button is the part of the back where the neck is fixed to the body. a thin or a button the is tapered (thicker near the corpus, thinner on the edge are styles used by some makers. You will usually find on better fiddles that the thickness is even. Also the shape is more rounded and styled. It's the little thing that good makers attend to. The button is crucial to the fiddle as it is where the neck contacts the body, and transmits vibrations to the body from the neck.
Also note the some scrolls are too big or too small. There is a balance the enhances these neck vibrations, Don't believe me, get a cheap fiddle play it then cut off the scroll, or increase the mass with a weight.
THe glue is the big part of what I said earlier. I am currently struggling the repair a cheap "Chinese?" fiddle and the nut is put on with who knows what. Makes an expensive repair.
In the motorcycle world we say,"if you've got a $10 head, get a $10 helmet" It applies here too.
The price of a violin
The price of a violin
Hi,
I'm currently in the process of buying a new violin to replace my £160 student thing, as it has some neck issues that I was told wouldn’t be worth repairing. So off I went down to my local violin shop, which was highly recommended, to see what sort of thing they had in my price range (around £450). I haven’t been playing very long so I didn’t want to go overboard in terms of buying something that I wouldn’t warrant, I just want something that plays well and has the correct neck angle and wont restrict my progress.
I tried out a German fiddle from 1981 for £360, which played a lot better but didn’t completely win me over on tone and then I tried the only other violin remotely in my price range, another German one from 1940 going for £500.
I really like the sound of this one, and it plays really easily and has the right balance of smoothness and clarity compared to my dull and fuzzy student thing. I’m completely happy to pay £500 for the sound it makes, but its not in great condition. I’m not bothered at all about what it looks like, the problem is that I don’t want it to just fall apart in my hands one day.
The things I can see wrong with it are that the ribs aren’t an even distance away from the edge of the back and belly the whole way round, the end pin is pulled up towards the tailpiece, the joints at the C ribs to the other ribs are a bit scruffy and there is a lot of white stuff visible between the ribs and the back and belly (old glue?). There are other things like dings round the edge of the belly and just general scratches to the varnish but I’m not concerned about these as they aren’t structural.
Should I be concerned about these things? And do you think that £500 is a reasonable price? (I know it is difficult to answer this without seeing it). I’m not for one second suggesting that the owner of the shop is trying to rip me off, as I’ve heard that he is very honest and seems to me like a very nice guy, I just don’t know anything about violins and wondered what you people thought.
I’m going back to the shop tomorrow with it (and hopefully buying it) so I’ll ask all these things then, I just thought I would ask here too
Thanks a lot
Jake
p.s sorry if these questions are impossible to answer over the internet and I’ve wasted your time
p.p.s. the violin is unlabeled, whether this means he doesn’t know who made it, I don’t know
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by sloth
Re: The price of a violin
An old "alley cat" of a fiddle that looks like it has been in a load of fights yet still sounds sweet is a great thing, but.... only at the right price.
To me £500 sounds too much with the sort of issues you describe. Add £500 to the cost of having them professionally sorted and is that what the fiddle would be worth, I wonder?
When you pay the extra that a dealer charges, you should get some sort of guarantees. What would they give you for it if you trade it in on an "upgrade" in due course? Some dealers have fairly specific terms on that.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: The price of a violin
Uneven "edge work" and corner joints can be okay as "character," it's the other things that I'd be more concerned about.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: The price of a violin
What was that great quote on one of these threads?
If I sell it to you, it's a violin.
If I buy it from you, it's a fiddle.
Seriously, can you take someone with you to have a look at this thing? Issues like the type of glue used, and whether the oddities are easy or not to repair, will affect its saleability. In addition, there are things that look cheap to repair and aren't (and vice versa).
There are always plenty of fiddles out there! But if you like it, I don't see why you shouldn't get a knowledgeable person to accompany you to have a further look at it.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: The price of a violin
I have a German violin and bow both dating from the end of the 19th century. The older the better is what I think when it comes to german models!
I got mine for about £500 from a really good little shop in Wheldrake near York...if you're in the area, try it out, it's on the main street through the village!
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: The price of a violin
can you tell whether the thing is in disrepair or was just not put together that well in the first place? this is important. You talk of scruffy joints ... have they come apart or did they never fit. look closely, you should be able to tell. 68 years is not an old fiddle, can you assertion who had it before?
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by ...
Re: The price of a violin
Mark H (decent as always!) doesn't mention three that he has listed at danceofdelight.co.uk at less than that price. Not too far from Oxford.
Is this one with Roger C?
I wouldn't be a in a big hurry here!
Tom
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: The price of a violin
The problems with the instrument sound like they may be only cosmetic, in which case they're nothing to worry about if you like the sound. If you see cracks, and odd neck angle, or evidence of major repairs like a sound post patch, then that's something to worry about.
If you really like the fiddle but are worried about the condition, ask if the shop let you take it to an independent luthier for an appraisal and estimate of any needed repairs.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Marklar
Re: The price of a violin
I haven't got any contact details, but try getting in touch with Tom Paley, who's only down in London ( not that far from Oxford ) who deals in nice-sounding fiddles, being a musician himself.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The price of a violin
If you're on the Milton Keynes side of Oxford I could put you in touch with a friend of mine who does some work on repair/restoration, take a look at it for you and perhaps give you an idea of what may or may not be wrong with it. And probably, as Screetch says, most importantly what it might cost to put it into playing order. Best of luck!
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by john knoss
Re: The price of a violin
All the violins come with a years Guarantee and he said that if you look after a fiddle he will buy it back for the price you bought it for, which is what the person who recommended this shop did. And like i said before, this shop comes highly recommended which i why im even considering it.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by sloth
Re: The price of a violin
I think ill just ask him all these things tomorrow
thanks for your advice
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by sloth
Re: The price of a violin
A guarantee would sell me this fiddle. After a year you'll definitely know whether it was a good buy or not.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Farr
Re: The price of a violin
Can I ask which shop it is? If it's Waters violins in Wallingford I'd second the recommendation that it's a great place to buy a fiddle.
Having said that, it's worth taking some time over buying a new fiddle and look at quite a few before you make a decision. Another great shop is Bridgewood and Neitzert in London. Really helpful staff and a good range of instruments and prices.
I take all my students there when they need a new instrument and haven't been disappointed yet. Good luck with it and hope you find a nice one.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by nickyviola
Re: The price of a violin
Sorry, forgot to say you should take it to someone else for a second opinion and to hear them play it. The sound under your ear is so different from what comes across to listeners.
They should give you time to do that if you ask them. Just gone through the buying process too and found it really reassuring to hear other peoples thoughts.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by nickyviola
Re: The price of a violin
I am sorry to say that I have been told that the Wheldrake business is no longer on the go. My sister used to use him for repairs etc, as did I, with him being only just down the road from me. His work was excellent, but I understand that his delivery times were getting a bit long. (If I'm wrong, I shall be delighted to be told so!). I've checked the latest Phone book for our area, but can't find him.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: The price of a violin
Yes its Water's violins, which is why i don't think im just being ripped
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by sloth
Re: The price of a violin
Ebor / DJF
I also tried to contact Dave Hodgson to get my bow rehaired, but could not get through - maybe I'll pop by sometime. His contacts are
David I Hodgson
Wheldrake
01904-448782
http://www.dihodgson.co.uk
I went to the violin shop in Beverley and found them excellent, and with a good range of fiddles
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by domhnall.
Re: The price of a violin
With the end pin pulled up towards the tailpiece, if you cannot stick a toothpick in there to shim the end pin, be aware that a luthier could alter the tone of the violin substantially if the bottom block were replaced.
Many of these issues are what the tone of the instrument is a bout, and if you fix them it changes.
I would not put the the other issues at the top of the list, but they could have similar outcomes from a luthier.
-dogma
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: The price of a violin
I have been away or I would have responded sooner.
White stuff at the corners, BAD. I don't know how many fiddle I've seen and repaired with the wrong glue that someone tried to use. If anything goes wrong, it is a VERY expensive repair when it could have been cheap. I agree that you should always get a second opinion on any fiddle purchase. My experiences have shown that no two fiddles are alike. If you don't love the fiddle, keep looking. German fiddles range from Very good to crap. There are plenty of good ones so keep looking.
A good key to the quality of an instrument, believe it or not, is the button. A thin button is a cheap instrument. Also look to the carving quality of the scroll. It tells a lot about the maker.
The Sound is most important. If it isn't what you're looking for, keep looking. I've found some wonderful American made instruments that don't cost an arm and a leg.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by Fiddleshed
Re: The price of a violin
fiddleshed
Thats interesting, I have always looked at the scroll as indicator of quality but never the button - by which I asume you mean the end pin (sorry my terminology)
What would a thin button or vica versa a thick button look like?
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by tobes
Re: The price of a violin
Just buy a good fiddle and find someone to properly set it up. I have found a garage sale (French) fiddle with no label that plays better than any fiddle I have in my collection.
It took 3 years of Bridges,Strings and Sound posts to get the sound I wanted and the colors I knew this fiddle should have.
Setting a fiddle would be like balancing a pencil on it's point and any combination of change in the set up will drastically enhance or degrade the tone.
I find that a change of strings (Brands)require a change of bridge configuration and or sound post position adjustment,
So what I am saying is don't get discouraged. Find something you like and have someone set it up properly. Best to learn to do this yourself, I have made it my passion.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by cpicc
Re: The price of a violin
The button is the part of the back where the neck is fixed to the body. a thin or a button the is tapered (thicker near the corpus, thinner on the edge are styles used by some makers. You will usually find on better fiddles that the thickness is even. Also the shape is more rounded and styled. It's the little thing that good makers attend to. The button is crucial to the fiddle as it is where the neck contacts the body, and transmits vibrations to the body from the neck.
Also note the some scrolls are too big or too small. There is a balance the enhances these neck vibrations, Don't believe me, get a cheap fiddle play it then cut off the scroll, or increase the mass with a weight.
THe glue is the big part of what I said earlier. I am currently struggling the repair a cheap "Chinese?" fiddle and the nut is put on with who knows what. Makes an expensive repair.
In the motorcycle world we say,"if you've got a $10 head, get a $10 helmet" It applies here too.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Fiddleshed