It's a tune I wrote myself, it's a bit different to a standard trad tune but it was inspired by the tunes of Reavy, Fahey, Dwyer and others and I didn't for a second think it would be considered controversial but Slainte begs to differ with me.
So I'd be interested to know what the rest of you think.
The way I see it, slainte has just expressed his opinion on the tune. You've taken it personally which is understandable, but you should try not to. You should also understand why other people would hold back from saying what they think when they see your reaction to slainte's comments. Whether they like it or not, you can understand why people wouldn't want to "get involved", because whatever they say it would look like they were siding with someone.
I didn't say Slainte has no right to advise about Irish music because he's Japanese, I said he's no right to try to enforce his opinions because he has only been listening to the music since 1999 and doesn't live in a situation where he is surrounded by Irish musicians playing the music.
The fact that he is Japanese has nothing to do with it really. There's plenty of Japanese musicians I know who have a great understanding of the music and they'd never have made the offensive comments he made.
Sure I got a bit upset by what he said, but I'd be upset by anyone saying something as ignorant as
'I don't think it's a good idea to post this kind of tune on this site.'
'It has nothing to do with the traditional music of Ireland.'
So I'm just putting this discussion out here to see whether others feel the same way as Slainte about it.
Of course no one will express their opinion because no one ever wants to look like they're siding with one opinion on this site do they?!!!
If you don't like the tune please feel free to say so but at least have a proper reason for it.
I compose tunes, and have taken a look at yers. It's very well written and there is order to the melody and I follow the "story" of the tune. If I knew nothing about it, Id immediately recognize it as a modern composition. I can see/hear where it could be arranged and used in movie or a TV commercial in an effective way. The emotional value of it for me isn't completely absent, the tunes and phrases stir up some feelings but I see/hear many many many possibilities for harmonic background. There is the side of Irish music that relishes in modern compositions that stray from the traditional and this tune will probably end up finding a home there. (Which the title already suggests has happened.)
My take on the "traditional" is a little different, I believe as much as traditional music has been established.. that it is still misunderstood and re rendered in ways that lose the complexities and sometimes subtle genius that inhabits it. So modern compositions (for me) are compared to "traditional" compositions/tunes where a high standard exists that few grasp completely, so the reality of me adding this tune to my "need to learn" list is low, but thats just where my romantic vision is fixed currently.
The problem with the way you've set up this discussion, is that if someone *does* feel that they can give a valid reason for not liking the tune or for it not fitting with the tradition, in attempting to discuss it they are always going to come off looking like a dipstick because of what Martin Tourish has said. You've set it up so that that person will find themselves in a no-win situation. As far as discussion of the tune goes, it ends up being a stalemate.
look if someone can actually give a valid reason for it not fitting within the tradition that contradicts what Martin T or indeed I have said then I'll be happy to acknowledge it.
However I'm not asking for that with this discussion, I'm just trying to figure out is this tune just too mad for people to consider playing. I really didn't think it was that mad when I wrote it but Slainte has the impression it sounds like Schoenberg which it certainly doesn't to my ears
OK that's fair enough, frisbee. My opinion, then, is this, FWIW. I found the tune very interesting. I'm a sucker for tunes in weird modes as you probably know. I can definitely see the influences of some of the composers you mentioned, most notably Ed Reavy, with the lydian thing. I was reminded of tunes like the Letterkenny Blacksmith, and particularly Hughie's Cap. The difference for was 3 main things:
1) Reavy and Fahy tunes tend not to be a constant stream of notes of the same length - they tend to stop in places and dwell on certain notes giving the tune time to breath and the muso a chance to make sense of the phrasing.
2) Reavy tunes (as an example) tend to have some kind of symmetry; this isn't always the case, but more often than not the part endings will have similar themes to tie them together and make them more memorable, and you won't usually get long 1st and 2nd time endings that differ massively from each other in both parts.
3) Reavy tunes tend to have contrasting pitch in the A and B parts so that the tune "goes somewhere" from one part to the other and back again. Again, this isn't always the case, just a general observation...
That's why for me the tune does not sound like a traditional tune and instead sounds modern. On the other hand, Martin Tourish seems to think it's within the bounds of the tradition, and I think he's a great player, and obviously much more knowledgable than I am, so what I've said is probably totally invalid.
O.K., I took the bait and tried to play it. It is an interesting set of notes, but not something I would really feel like playing again. The notation makes it "look" like ITM, but it doesn't sound like one, to my ears. I had a hard time trying to find the tonal center of the tune. It also doesn't lay very well on the fiddle, which I'm sure, lots of tunes not written for the fiddle don't.
I know a contemporary composer of "traditional" style tunes (old-time) and I play lots of them; his tunes really do sound "old," using conventions of composition that make them sound "traditional."
And I shouldn't have said "modern", because a tune can be both modern and traditional in style. I should have said "untraditional in style" or something.
There you go Dow, a good constructive comment. I take your points and as I said in the comments in the tune section I don't think for a second that my tune is on a par with the best of Reavy, Fahey and Dwyers and perhaps the reasons you've stated are valid.
There isn't much room to breathe in this tune, you're right, but I wouldn't always play it with all the notes I've put in, I would hold on some of the notes here and there. I'll post a sound recording of it somewhere soon just to give an example.
funny I wrote this with a banjo which is the same tuning as the fiddle, also check out one of the comments on the tune page by Joe CSS who says it's ok on the fiddle. I guess some folks find some tunes easier than others.
Oh and it's not meant to sound 'old' it's actually easy enough to write tunes that sound just like they were written two hundred years ago. The strength of composers like Reavy, Fahey and Dwyer is that their more adventurous tunes sound like a part of the tradition yet they couldn't possibly have been written before they were written. They sound fresh to me, not 'old'.
So I'm trying something new along those lines, I can tell already that some people get it and some just don't which is fair enough. If you just don't like the tune I'm not going to berate you for it.
hey I'm just responding honestly to your criticism wyogal, am I supposed to sit back and say everything you've said is right?
Dow and Sean were critical of the tune too.
I appreciate constructive criticism, you saying it doesn't fit easily on the fiddle for you is constructive and that you don't think you'd want to play it again is constructive however I'm just pointing out that someone else said it fits ok on the fiddle! Also I thought it important to point out that it was not my intention to make the tune sound 'old' like your composer friend does.
If you're going to give opinions you have to be prepared to be get your opinions critiqued you know!!!
but perhaps you make a point wyogal. right I'm not gonna respond to any more critiques of the tune until the very end of the discussion after I've heard what others make of it.
That is if anyone is brave enough to join the discussion at this stage.........
I thought that in general, there were some peculiar twists and turns that I really liked, such as the 1st bit:
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcBc | BGG^F GFDE | and this bit =FECE ^FGAD | ^FGAB GFGA | which reminded me of a Paddy Fahy tune, and this bit ...de^fa gfga | (3_bag (3ag^f gd (3_edc... It was just that for me, those bits didn't sound like they belonged in the same tune. I felt like I wanted to hear those turns, but not alongside each other, or something. Maybe it's the fact that the whole tune is pretty full-on peculiar. The thing with Reavy and Fahy tunes is that if there's a peculiar bit, like something that suggest the lydian mode, for example, that bit will nestle between phrases that sound totally trad, making the whole thing more palatable for someone who's used to trad tunes. I'm thinking of the B-part of the Letterkenny Blacksmith. The 1st phrase sounds weird, but it's "balanced" by a 2nd phrase that could have come from any tune in O'Neill's.
It just seemed like you were pretty quick to jump on what I said, trying to argue the point, being defensive.
Yes, I would recommend that you wait and hear what people have to say. If you want to argue with their opinions, then I'd say the comment, "So I'd be interested to know what the rest of you think." is rather misleading.
I know that everybody likes to think their baby is beautiful and all, but if you ask what people think about something, they tell you, don't be so quick to jump on them if what they think is not akin to what you think.
Thanks. And after reading the comments, I'd like to learn a bit more about the composers that influenced you. (surely, some of you are going "duh" but I'm a newbie)
Weird tune, I can't say that I would want to play it (too many accidentals for my taste) but if someone else wants to play it that is perfectly fine with me.
As for it being ITM or not, that is partly in how you play it, for instance if you played it solo on a piano slowly with some weird base runs it would sound more classical, but if you played it with a couple fiddles, a banjo, a flute, and a guitar it would sound more traditional.
Arlo
Well wyogal glad to know at least I've stirred some interest in the composers I like.
Ed Reavy, Paddy Fahey, Finbarr Dwyer and Tommy Peoples would be my main tune composer influences. check out some of these tunes which I think were all written since around the 1950's and some much more recently
Some of these tunes influence me for their use of accidentals, odd keys/modes etc. and others for their wide note span, Tommy Peoples has very wide leaps in his tunes for instance and while he doesn't change modes often he has some very strange turns in his tunes unlike anything written by anyone before him. Same can be said of the others.
This isn't really about the tune, but I think that the way you, frisbee, responded to slainte was rude, condescending and unfair.... and that is as an uninvolved onlooker only. Also, when you later tried to say that what you said was not about slainte being Japanese (from your comment "The Japanese Trad Police have Arrived" and onward), I really don't know how else to interpret the things you wrote to be honest. Even in your backpeddaling about the whole thing you said that "he's no right to try to enforce his opinions" (!) because he doesn't live in a place where "he is surrounded by *Irish* musicians playing the music". Um, what? Really weird, since you then go on to say that there are Japanese people with a very good understanding of the music.... presumably there would be some in the large metropolitan area where slainte lives.... so why the insistance, even here, that they be "Irish"?
I agree with most of what Dow has said. The tune has interest, but its insistence on getting every accidental in tends to overwhelm its potential for musical phrasing. "Over intellectual" comes to mind, but that's a highly subjective point--I simply don't like overly thought out music, compared to more intuitive or simply emotional compositions.
That said, I occasionally think through some motif to build a tune around, but I usually let other parts of the tune just unfold (typically by noodling around till a good phrase or two suggests themselves).
And I whioleheartedly agree with gretchen's scolding about how you responded to slainte. He's actually spent a lot of time in the Isles playing with great musicians. And the role he (and others) play in trying to preserve some Irish trad focus to the tune database is a valuable one, even if they don't succeed in filtering every tune. Without their sensibilities, the tunes here could easily be overrun by old timey, bluegrass, quebecois, scandanavian, and macedonian folk music. I don't mind the Box Tour being in the archives here, but I doubt many people will bother learning it. I know I won't--there are too many other tunes, including quirky "modern" ones, that I want to play with others at sessions.
ok Gretchen perhaps I was a bit unfair about the whole thing with Slainte but you have to see it from my point of view that as an Irish person I find it pretty strange to have a Japanese person telling me that my music has nothing to do with the Irish tradition!
I can see how my Japanese Trad Police comment can be taken the wrong way though. The Japanese musicians I'm referring to are people who either live in or have lived in Ireland for a long time and I know none of them would say what Slainte said
'I don't think it's a good idea to post this kind of tune on this site.'
'It has nothing to do with the traditional music of Ireland.'
So I may have come across as rude, condescending and unfair to Slainte but surely you can see that he did it to me first in a less direct way.
This whole thing started with me innocently posting the tune and those were the first few comments I got so I was pretty annoyed and probably went overboard in my response. So there's two of us in it gretchen but for my part I'm happy to apologise for any offence caused......
Dave, part of the problem is that just living in Ireland doesn't in itself qualitfy you as an expert on Irish trad music. In fact, American country music is a more likely strength for your Jeopardy categories.
And Hiroyuki actually knows a fair amount about Irish trad. He's a whistle and flute player, so your chromatic tune wouldn't thrill him....
Personally I have some sympathies with frisbee. IMO in Scotland we have a much more relaxed attitude to tunes. If you like it play it, if you don't, don't. I hate comments like ''It has nothing to do with the traditional music of Ireland.'' The reality is that the origins of a large percentage of tunes played within the Irish tradition had nothing or little to do with the Irish tradition in the first place. Hundreds and hundreds of Scottish tunes, for example, are played in ITM and are Masons Apron, Mrs MacLeod, Sleepy Maggie etc are accepted as normal tunes to play. At one stage these tunes had nothing to do with ITM. No tune is truly traditional, every single one was written or adapted by someone at some time.
To me those that are parochial tune-wise just sound pathetic.
What a brilliant conversation! Great to hear people getting passionate about something they believe so strongly in so fair play to Dave and Slainte respectively.
The main argument against the tune is the phrasing and musicians finding it hard to breath life into it because there are too many quavers etc... One of the keys to unlocking this tune for me personally is to understand the context in which it was written. It is part of the errigal suite, and mount errigal is in Donegal. Therefore, there is a strong Donegal influence inherent in the tune here, and the suite.
When I first heard it, I thought, oh my god, they've brought John Doherty back to life. Have a listen to his style, then try imagine himself playing it... With almost even articulation, starting off slow and getting faster.. I've heard it performed live this way and it is the most incredible journey of a tune. I could hardly sit on the seat at its debut when it started to lift!!
So, get out your old Donegal fiddle recordings, hear their chromaticism (the cassidys) and John Dohertys fiddling style. Then the fact that this has been re-created over 100 years on, is such an achievement for any composer.
One of the things I hope this tune will do is to get people thinking as they once did about tonality, and the amazing amount of possibilities inherent in our wonderful genre. (somebody provide a link to Caomhins JMI) They were all at it back in the day... we're never as bold or original as we'd like to think!
Just a technical question regarding the statement: "I'm not gonna respond to any more critiques of the tune until the very end of the discussion." How will you know when the very end has arrived? Mornington Crescent anyone?
Its a really really lovely tune and the beginning.
First part ends odd high notes after, |2 But I wish I had wrote the very first part of this tune ,,
Even nicer when played slower,,
The second part goe's out like one of my -''Out of my
head'' Improves ,,But has all the making's of a very Great reel - And I like the Ed Reavy twiddle bit (3_bag (3ag^f .
But hey am I not old of the old farts boys now,, Maybe the Salamancia Was thought of the same
way with the V.Old Guard,,
Like to here it tried with some of those sharps and flats took out..But a dam good try at being new,,
More to be Pondered than,,Discarded, I Think,,
jim,,,
Martin said--- "So, get out your old Donegal fiddle recordings, hear their chromaticism (the cassidys) and John Dohertys fiddling style. Then the fact that this has been re-created over 100 years on, is such an achievement for any composer.
One of the things I hope this tune will do is to get people thinking as they once did about tonality..."
I said---
"My take on the "traditional" is a little different, I believe as much as traditional music has been established.. that it is still misunderstood and re rendered in ways that lose the complexities and sometimes subtle genius that inhabits it. So modern compositions (for me) are compared to "traditional" compositions/tunes where a high standard exists that few grasp completely, so the reality of me adding this tune to my "need to learn" list is low, but thats just where my romantic vision is fixed currently."
Interesting comparison of quotes here... Ive often thought that if John Doherty did come back and go to a modern session that there would be the possibilty of him being scutinized, becaus the music he played IS a different thing than what is being played now. So many standard traditional tunes go places where few can think of becuase they have been slapped with formulized chord structures that pigeon hole them in ways that they dont deserve.... I dont dislike this tune, but I didn't need it to get me thinking "about tonality." I see your point and respect it and if the tune does get people thinking about tonality in traditional music, then that's a good thing, Because as you said, it IS THERE in the tradition in ways that people explore for a lifetime.... and other people ignore for a lifetime.
I kinda like it. Like Dow, I’m a sucker for modal surprises and such. I thought the melody was interesting but I would’ve appreciated more rhythmic variation, maybe more contrast between the A and B parts.
In the tradition? Maybe a bit toward the fringe, a nice novelty.
I think what Martin said above about John Doherty and others is entirely right. There's nothing new under the sun, and there seems to be less new now than there used to be.
Meanwhile, I didn't take to the tune - but then again I haven't heard it played - for one main reason: it sounds to me like a basically decent tune that's had certain notes deliberately flattened or sharpened so as to bend the thing out of shape. If you put the thing back into a more resticted mode, without so many accidentals, I think it might be a better tune.
And I'm going to say this, even though I feel like I'm going to be attacked for it: it comes across to me like arrogance to post a discussion like this, which just suggests to me a challenge to *anybody* to *dare* not to like a tune that frisbee wrote. I've posted ONE tune of mine on here. It got attacked by slainte. I've let it lie. I certainly wouldn't have posted a discussion about it. But I suppose that's because I'm not a brilliant and important composer of tunes.
Would be better to hear Martin Tourish play it. I did it in one take with no edits so there are a few duff notes and it lacks a bit of life but it'll do for this purpose.
Benhall, I posted the tune and this discussion out of curiosity not arrogance. I really didn't expect some of the responses I've got, I didn't think it was that strange a tune but I see that it is a bit much for some people.
I'm a very direct person and I guess that can come across as arrogance to some people. So SCREW YOU BENHALL.1!!!!! - just kidding
Incidentally I wrote the tune intuitively with the aid of my banjo and my imagination.
Ah ... thanks Jim, I think that might have been what I was saying too.
frisbee, that recording's helpful. But it does clarify, for me at least, that the part I have the most problem with is the second part. The first part seems to hang together - by hook or by crook - but the second just seems to drag you too far away from where you expect to be. And not for good enough reason, IMHO. I still think less accidentals, particularly in that second part, would help.
Now, as I think Martin implied above, in its original context, it may have had an entirely different effect from the one it has when taken simply as a tune in its own right ...
I once had an arranging teacher that told me "if you have to explain your piece, then its shight"...but i did find my self enjoying your recording via the link you provided...especially the B section
As far as I can see, there are 8400 tunes on this site already, and while I can see that the posting of nonsense should be discouraged, serious attempts at musical composition in Irish dance tune form (like the case in point) are perfectly acceptable. The morally correct response to a tune that you don't personally like is to write nothing at all in the "comments" section, and anyone who departs from this principal deserves everything they get.
ha! jim likes the A part and jas bas likes the B part so I guess that means that someone who is half of Jim and half of jas bas put together will really like the whole tune!
frisbee
No - Only you can do that mate ,,but I love to hear the second part Re composed in keeping with that brill first part..
And I do Agree with benhall,1 This would really make a great Banjo tune,,
jim,,,
'but I love to hear the second part Re composed in keeping with that brill first part..'
that's not gonna happen jim, I like the tune as it is, so am not gonna change it. It came out naturally like that so it'd be a bit contrived to try to go back on it now.
If you like the first half so much you'd probably like Reavy's 'Old Cameronian' which has a similar opening. If I was to rewrite it to make it more 'traditional' then it might just sound like a forgotten Reavy tune!
Don't think the Old Cameronian's on this site, it seems itself to be based on the Cameronian but is quite different.
don't worry I'm not gonna change it just cos it's not 'traditional' enough for a few begrudgers.
Incidentally I don't mean to sound crass but I heard your playing on sound lantern and enjoyed it a lot jim. I think Charlie Lennon would enjoy your version of his tune.
Seeing Dave gave his permission, I'd love to see other peoples interpretations of the tune posted. I'd like to see an attempt by fiddle4 at a new second part and maybe someone else to take out a few accidentals or rhythmically varying it.
This wouldn't be as a competition or rivalary, but a wonderful example of everyones take on the same thing. It'd be the first time it's really happened on this site also...
I don't think I'd be the man to play with its compositional structure but if i get a chance, I might bang down a version of it.
This is what folk music is about: everyones individuality being expressed through the medium of the same raw materials. (tunes)
I think, we'd be taking a huge step in the developement of trad if we had the get up and go to make our own interpretations of Daves piece (in this case) and post them for discussion.
Just for a laugh because I can't sleep thought I'd learn how to use that soundlantern.....not in frisbees league of course and don't panic, I'm not putting it into the tunes section
frisbee
my version of the first part --Mate,,,,,Dont mean to offend
You have wrote a very good tune,,
X:12
T:Tourish's Tour Around The Box
M:4/4
L:1/8
R:reel
K:Cmaj
DE |:
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcBG |(3AG^F G3z|
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcAG | BGA/^c/e/ d2z||
What no one has said yet about this tune that all it's phrases are constricted by the bar lines. This, I'm afraid frisbee, leaves it the category of the mundane. No amount of clever turns and accidentals can save it. Sorry.
Not Completely- This is the way I would play this tune ,If
I had the skill to do the flats and sharps Right,,jim,,
X:12
T:Tourish's Tour Around The Box
M:4/4
L:1/8
R:reel
K:Cmaj
DE |:
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcBG |(3AG^F G3z|
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcAG | BG^ce d2||
GA|:
_BAGA =BcdB | d^cAG ^FDDE | =FECE ^FGAD |^FGAB GFGA|
_BAGA =BcdB | d^cAG ^FDDE | =FECE ^FGAD |^FGAB G4||
that's how you 'see' it michael, it wasn't written like it looks on paper. if played right it has a flow about it that takes it out of bar-lines, for instance I think of the first two bars of the second half as one long phrase and plenty of notes before barlines are part of the phrase in the next bar. It is not all four square, maybe that's how it sounds when I play it but it's not meant to.
Then again we rarely agree on things michael so I'd hardly expect you say anything other than what you have, in fact I take it as a compliment that you find it mundane
I never looked at it on paper, only listened to your recording. Every phrase is the same length:
deedle // dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de dum de deedle dum de/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de deedle dum de deedle/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de dum de deedle dum de/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de deedle dum de deedle//
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de dum de deedle dum de/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de deedle dum de deedle/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de dum de deedle dum de/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de deedle dum de deedle//
yep I didn't play it very well, I can admit that and even said so when posting it, the guitar isn't the best instrument for getting phrasing into tunes like this, hopefully Martin will put a recording up somewhere so you can hear that an instrument with better sustain can phrase it nicer than I did.
I'd do a fiddle recording of it but I think that would only complicate matters!
Hey just posted a tune called The Caledonian No. 3. Have a look and tell me what your thoughts are on its unusually high level of structural chromaticism. Also, I didn't compose this... It's a genuine tune from the late 1800's, East Donegal.
now you see that bit in the middle of the weird old jig is more chromatic than anything in my tune. in my tune there really isn't any direct chromaticism, i.e. no three notes are connected chromatically. That's something I got from Reavy and Co.
and if chromaticism offends any of you then you better avoid this old nugget
You are all getting hung up on the chromaticism. Good tunes are about the interesting juxtaposition, turning and completion of phrases. How phrases build a whole. How phrases surprise and fit together.
not your criticism michael, cos all you do on this site is criticise in a negative way.
I don't expect you of all people to like it so you can say what you like about it, I rarely take anything you say seriously. Every now and again you come up with some common sense such as
'Good tunes are about the interesting juxtaposition, turning and completion of phrases. How phrases build a whole. How phrases surprise and fit together'.
If you don't think my tune has these ingredients that's your opinion but I beg to differ.
Just an observation (thought I had already made this point):
When you ask what people think, and they tell you, take it. The immediate knee-jerk reaction to those that don't particularly like the tune smells of arrogance. One should not have to explain one's music when given criticism. The music needs to speak for itself. It should not need explanation of it's structure, or excuses about a recording one has made of it, etc.
It's just a tune.
Some will like it, others won't. No amount of explanation will sway either.
Thanks for posting tunes by those other composers, by the way.
Ah lads! I personally believe that folk music is neither good or bad: it's relevant.
Now can we get back to talking about music!!
Anyhow Llig, phrasing is heavily affected by harmonic change and that being the theme of this tune, suggests that numerous phrasings are indeed possible. Ones opinion on exactly where this tunes modal and harmonic emphasis shifts determines how one would phrase it and that is going to lead to some very interesting interpretations down the line indeed!
yeah but some people like Michael don't give constructive criticism, there has been plenty of constructive criticism which I've appreciated but the kind of carp Michael bleats out most of the time is very destructive and deliberately so but perhaps you're right again wyogal maybe I should just ignore it.
Think I'll go to bed and dream up a nice simple tune to post next time..........
Egad! After that shoenberg piece that you posted, frisbee, I will never ever tell anyone that they sound like shoenberg. Where did they find the notes, in a trash bin?
By the way, what was that woman complaining about in the piece?
The dog, who is tone-deaf, got up and went outside, unwilling to come back in, and he's tolerant of my screeching.
I wish you would post a recording of your tune. I would like to hear it played by someone who can do it well.
firsbee denigrates anyone's views that he doesn't like, and this thread certainly isn't the first time. If he'd actually bother to take in what michael has said, he might just learn something. But he seems to think he's "above" that.
It's bad enough when someone gets instantly defensive over critiques of their work, but it's a bit mad when you explicitly ask for it and then can't take it.
Your tune is much more coherent than Schoenberg. I think this is the type of tune that Flook would just jump on. I've heard lots of tunes like this played up Manchester way. I wouldn't compare it to the likes of Reavy or Fahey, but I would say it has a certain Liz Carroll quality about it when played quickly. Esp her older compositions. Would anyone like to debate that she's not trad? It's all about perspective and interpretation. On another note, it's not up to slainte or anyone else to decide what is trad and what's not. Obviously, this tune has its roots in Celtic music. Those of us who've played and listened to the music for a good time know when a tune is just downright out of the realm of Celtic/Irish music. This tune is well within the confines. Fair play!
Oh, I'd also like to mention that with all the BS going on in the world today, this whole debate seems a little trivial relative to some black dots on a piece of paper in a sea of a million tunes.
Although it's an easy, and often lazy, approach to message board discussions, I don't think the sort of ad hominem attacks that Frisbee seems to be leveling really elevate the discussion here.
I also don't get the point of taking the argument to the larger message board, it smacks of tattling on a schoolyard fight.
So at this point I'm not even commenting on the point of this thread, I'm commenting on the process of this thread's point.
As to Llig and his comments, I find his often brief statements to have more insight than much of what's posted on this mustard board
I listened to the recording and found it excruciatingly boring. Reminded me of little kids that come to my house and poke randomly and quickly at the keys of my piano. Frisbee, since you felt compelled to post it, you should have let it slide into oblivian instead of drawing so much attention to it and you.
I think it's a tune that grows on you, after you've tried playing it or listened to it a few times . The first time I tried playing it I wasn't sure if I liked it, but after a few more goes and getting some variation into it it's definitely growing on me .Maybe when I think I've got it well enough I'll put my interpretation up on Sound Lantern too. To me it doe's remind me of some of Finbarr Dwyer's tunes.
If I was going to use some of the ideas for a tune, whilst keeping the whole chromatic thing, I'd probably chop huge chunks out of it and simplify it loads, ending up with something like this off the top of my head:
That'd be how I'd make sense of it for myself. Yeah ok, I didn't get to use that nice snippet from the middle of the B-part, but I'd just try and work that into another tune or something.
So, frisbee lays into anyone who dares criticise this "tune," (including a racist attack on slainte) and seems surprised when anyone responds.
I think we can draw our own conclusions.
Yeah I agree, that firsbee guy is a terrible racist, belligerent guy who wouldn't know a good tune if it hit him. He should just sit back and accept the criticism of those who say this is a mundane, boring tune which has nothing to do with the tradition.
Thats a bit harsh Chad.
I think Will nailed it though.
Frisbee's done it before, and most of his threads seem to slag things off. (From haircuts, to pubs). However when things don't go his way......RUNNNNNN...
The annoying thing is, having met him once or twice, he seems like a nice fellow. His online presence doesn't befit him.
If Dave had spent more time in the 'tunes' section, he'd understand what an important contributor Slainte is. Those comments come up all the time, but I think as most people do who know him, have to understand a lot is often lost in Translation.
You know, there's a Masters Degree in Cyber psychology here in Dun Laoghaire. It sounds interesting.....You could learn so much about certain posters.
So when did I meet you before Hugo (if that is your real name)? Did I act nice? Must have been an off day for me
Oh and if you look at the tune comments sections you'll see that it seems me and Slainte have patched things up so those politically correct people accusing me of racism can get off their high horses now.
see trouble with me is it's sometimes hard to tell when I'm being serious and when I'm just taking the p*ss to rise people.....I'm not sure myself half the time
ignoring the main arguement, I can't play the sound clips at work, nor drag out my abnjo for a go myself. I'll jump in with an aside...
Is there any way to search the tunes database by composer? Obviously the Paddy Fahey tunes are easy to find as are any other tunes named after the composer, but other than that any suggestions?
chris, just type in a composers name in the tune search and some of their tunes will come up, otherwise look up the composers in google and you'll find reference to tunes they've written.
Frisbee – this tune sounds nothing like Fahy, Dwyer, Reavey. Part of the thing that made their tunes traditional was that people were able to play them. Ok so Scott Skinner may have been able to play this piece (personally I think he would have turned his nose up at it) but do you really think the rural players of the early 20th century would have been able to play it?
“I think it's sad that the trad police seem to have opened up a branch in Japan and you've appointed yourself chief of police!!”
Every civilized society has a police force Frisbee.
“There you go Dow, a good constructive comment.”
Patronising or what!!
“it's actually easy enough to write tunes that sound just like they were written two hundred years ago.”
Please keep going this is too good!!
Martin T – Its very commendable that you are delving into the belly of your Donegal heritage and thanks for the link to The Caledonian.
Oh and by the way did you compose that tune you played on the Gradam Ceol? Congratulations by the way, I couldn’t help noticing the name of it – Liobhan Song – a spoonerism of Siobhan Long! Intentional or not?
“When I first heard it, I thought, oh my god, they've brought John Doherty back to life.”
Believe me he’s spinning in his grave….
"He should just sit back and accept the criticism of those who say this is a mundane, boring tune which has nothing to do with the tradition."
Ummmm, yes. You asked, people told you. And it is just their opinion.
Jeremy's original intentions was that the tunes should be representative of those which might be heard in a typical Irish session. Of course, they didn't need to be universally popular but the guidelines were that you had either heard them on your travels or they featured within your "local session".
Using this criteria, there's surely no problem with including tunes which might not sound particularly Irish or structured in a slightly different way. They could also include tunes from other countries(Scotland, the most obvious example) or cultures, hybrids etc as long as they got a fairly regular airing somewhere.
On the other side of the coin, should a tune automatically be submitted JUST because it meets some determined criteria for an "approved" structure of an Irish tune whether a new composition or otherwise? It might be very obscure, possibly not even very good and be of no real benefit to the Tune Section.
Right it seems this discussion is running out of steam, I'm quite tired of it at this stage myself so I'll leave by saying this.
This discussion was originally posted because someone objected to me posting the tune on this site.
It seems at least some of you find the tune interesting or worthwhile so to me that's justification for posting it. The person who originally objected to it being posted has since retracted this.
The tune is not everyone's cup of tea, I never thought it would be but at least the unusual nature of it got people talking and if nothing else introduced some people to the concept that Irish tunes aren't all simply restricted to one key or mode.
In defending the tune I've come across to some people as rude and belligerent, fair enough, I apologise for any offence caused but don't apologise for posting the tune or inciting debate.
Anyway that's it from me, think I'll take a break from this website for a while. It's too time consuming. I can hear you all cheering now...........
"This discussion was originally posted because someone objected to me posting the tune on this site."
So, you really don't want to know what people think of the tune, you just want to argue with people that don't like it. You really just want to poke people with a stick.
I don't care at this point about discussions regarding your tune, I don't care who influenced your composition.
I'm done with an open mind about it, as your intentions were just to inflame.
Personally, I don't like your tune. I thought it wasn't really musical, especially the B section.
Martin Tourish asked me to post this on sound lantern cos he wasn't sure how to do it. This is him playing the tune, if you don't like it after hearing him play it you'll probably never like it.
I don't hear it... I'll try again.
BTW, The tune is not controversial, it's the way you've gone about it, quite defensive, asking, but not really wanting, feedback.
ok something weird going on over at Sound Lantern, I uploaded the file on my page and it replaced Cathy's version of the tune for some reason! tried again and the same thing happened.
Sorry Cathy you'll have to ask your friends at Sound Lantern to check that out. In the meantime if you want to hear Martin play the tune check out Cathy's link!
Jim,
I think you heard Martin Tourish, there, not myself, something weird happened on Sound Lantern, and the recording of Martin has misteriously supplanted the one of me on my channel! Hopefully it will get sorted soon, meanwhile go to my channel to hear Martin Tourish play the tune on box, my fiddle version has disapeared.
Ok Cathy -- Comment I left on your site =
Oh well its much better - Tell him sharron would make a fortune with this one ,,Her being in the Know. jim,,,,
This is not an attack on you, or your tune but simply how I see this.
**
'This discussion was originally posted because someone objected to me posting the tune on this site.'
People object to tunes being posted in the 'tunes' section everyday, but rarely has a discussion been started about it...
There is a 'comments' section for a reason. It doesn't matter a shi*e if he's from Japan or Skibereen. He respects this music.
'It seems at least some of you find the tune interesting or worthwhile so to me that's justification for posting it. '
The tune or the discussion? Does this mean, everytime somebody posts one of their own tunes, they should post a discussion alongside it? NO THANKS.
'The person who originally objected to it being posted has since retracted this.'
I bet deep down he still feels exactly the same.
'but at least the unusual nature of it got people talking '
No. Your dedicated discusion, and reactions did that.
Frisbee ~ "ha! jim likes the A part and jas bas likes the B part so I guess that means that someone who is half of Jim and half of jas bas put together will really like the whole tune!"
Is this tune a step too far?
Is this tune a step too far?
Ok I posted this tune last night blissfully unaware that it would cause the ensuing debate on the comments section.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8417
It's a tune I wrote myself, it's a bit different to a standard trad tune but it was inspired by the tunes of Reavy, Fahey, Dwyer and others and I didn't for a second think it would be considered controversial but Slainte begs to differ with me.
So I'd be interested to know what the rest of you think.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
The way I see it, slainte has just expressed his opinion on the tune. You've taken it personally which is understandable, but you should try not to. You should also understand why other people would hold back from saying what they think when they see your reaction to slainte's comments. Whether they like it or not, you can understand why people wouldn't want to "get involved", because whatever they say it would look like they were siding with someone.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I think you're pushing it to tell slainte that he has no right to advise about Irish music because he's Japanese.
But personally, I like the tune.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I didn't say Slainte has no right to advise about Irish music because he's Japanese, I said he's no right to try to enforce his opinions because he has only been listening to the music since 1999 and doesn't live in a situation where he is surrounded by Irish musicians playing the music.
The fact that he is Japanese has nothing to do with it really. There's plenty of Japanese musicians I know who have a great understanding of the music and they'd never have made the offensive comments he made.
Sure I got a bit upset by what he said, but I'd be upset by anyone saying something as ignorant as
'I don't think it's a good idea to post this kind of tune on this site.'
'It has nothing to do with the traditional music of Ireland.'
So I'm just putting this discussion out here to see whether others feel the same way as Slainte about it.
Of course no one will express their opinion because no one ever wants to look like they're siding with one opinion on this site do they?!!!
If you don't like the tune please feel free to say so but at least have a proper reason for it.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I compose tunes, and have taken a look at yers. It's very well written and there is order to the melody and I follow the "story" of the tune. If I knew nothing about it, Id immediately recognize it as a modern composition. I can see/hear where it could be arranged and used in movie or a TV commercial in an effective way. The emotional value of it for me isn't completely absent, the tunes and phrases stir up some feelings but I see/hear many many many possibilities for harmonic background. There is the side of Irish music that relishes in modern compositions that stray from the traditional and this tune will probably end up finding a home there. (Which the title already suggests has happened.)
My take on the "traditional" is a little different, I believe as much as traditional music has been established.. that it is still misunderstood and re rendered in ways that lose the complexities and sometimes subtle genius that inhabits it. So modern compositions (for me) are compared to "traditional" compositions/tunes where a high standard exists that few grasp completely, so the reality of me adding this tune to my "need to learn" list is low, but thats just where my romantic vision is fixed currently.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
In my reply in line 4... "tunes" shoulda been "turns"
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Thank you Sean for that constructive reasoned comment.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
The problem with the way you've set up this discussion, is that if someone *does* feel that they can give a valid reason for not liking the tune or for it not fitting with the tradition, in attempting to discuss it they are always going to come off looking like a dipstick because of what Martin Tourish has said. You've set it up so that that person will find themselves in a no-win situation. As far as discussion of the tune goes, it ends up being a stalemate.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Ok I take that back - Sean that was brave of you
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Dow, are you saying that i was sucked into being overly diplomatic?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Or.... Ahhh....... Brave?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
look if someone can actually give a valid reason for it not fitting within the tradition that contradicts what Martin T or indeed I have said then I'll be happy to acknowledge it.
However I'm not asking for that with this discussion, I'm just trying to figure out is this tune just too mad for people to consider playing. I really didn't think it was that mad when I wrote it but Slainte has the impression it sounds like Schoenberg which it certainly doesn't to my ears
Here's some Schoenberg!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjAhEcHZQFE&feature=related
I'm very open to someone saying something like
'I wouldn't play that tune cos it doesn't fit easily on the whistle' or
'I wouldn't play that tune cos I prefer simpler straightforward melodies'
or
'I don't like the sound of the tune so I wouldn't play it'
However I really didn't like Slainte's attempt to dismiss it and get it taken off the site. So I'm looking for more reasoned opinions of the tune.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
You're welcome frisbee.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
OK that's fair enough, frisbee. My opinion, then, is this, FWIW. I found the tune very interesting. I'm a sucker for tunes in weird modes as you probably know. I can definitely see the influences of some of the composers you mentioned, most notably Ed Reavy, with the lydian thing. I was reminded of tunes like the Letterkenny Blacksmith, and particularly Hughie's Cap. The difference for was 3 main things:
1) Reavy and Fahy tunes tend not to be a constant stream of notes of the same length - they tend to stop in places and dwell on certain notes giving the tune time to breath and the muso a chance to make sense of the phrasing.
2) Reavy tunes (as an example) tend to have some kind of symmetry; this isn't always the case, but more often than not the part endings will have similar themes to tie them together and make them more memorable, and you won't usually get long 1st and 2nd time endings that differ massively from each other in both parts.
3) Reavy tunes tend to have contrasting pitch in the A and B parts so that the tune "goes somewhere" from one part to the other and back again. Again, this isn't always the case, just a general observation...
That's why for me the tune does not sound like a traditional tune and instead sounds modern. On the other hand, Martin Tourish seems to think it's within the bounds of the tradition, and I think he's a great player, and obviously much more knowledgable than I am, so what I've said is probably totally invalid.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
difference for *me*
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
breathE
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
O.K., I took the bait and tried to play it. It is an interesting set of notes, but not something I would really feel like playing again. The notation makes it "look" like ITM, but it doesn't sound like one, to my ears. I had a hard time trying to find the tonal center of the tune. It also doesn't lay very well on the fiddle, which I'm sure, lots of tunes not written for the fiddle don't.
I know a contemporary composer of "traditional" style tunes (old-time) and I play lots of them; his tunes really do sound "old," using conventions of composition that make them sound "traditional."
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
And I shouldn't have said "modern", because a tune can be both modern and traditional in style. I should have said "untraditional in style" or something.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
There you go Dow, a good constructive comment. I take your points and as I said in the comments in the tune section I don't think for a second that my tune is on a par with the best of Reavy, Fahey and Dwyers and perhaps the reasons you've stated are valid.
There isn't much room to breathe in this tune, you're right, but I wouldn't always play it with all the notes I've put in, I would hold on some of the notes here and there. I'll post a sound recording of it somewhere soon just to give an example.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
'It also doesn't lay very well on the fiddle' -
funny I wrote this with a banjo which is the same tuning as the fiddle, also check out one of the comments on the tune page by Joe CSS who says it's ok on the fiddle. I guess some folks find some tunes easier than others.
Oh and it's not meant to sound 'old' it's actually easy enough to write tunes that sound just like they were written two hundred years ago. The strength of composers like Reavy, Fahey and Dwyer is that their more adventurous tunes sound like a part of the tradition yet they couldn't possibly have been written before they were written. They sound fresh to me, not 'old'.
So I'm trying something new along those lines, I can tell already that some people get it and some just don't which is fair enough. If you just don't like the tune I'm not going to berate you for it.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
whatever...
some people just want compliments, I guess.
I gave you my honest opinion, didn't realize you were going to critique my opinion...
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
hey I'm just responding honestly to your criticism wyogal, am I supposed to sit back and say everything you've said is right?
Dow and Sean were critical of the tune too.
I appreciate constructive criticism, you saying it doesn't fit easily on the fiddle for you is constructive and that you don't think you'd want to play it again is constructive however I'm just pointing out that someone else said it fits ok on the fiddle! Also I thought it important to point out that it was not my intention to make the tune sound 'old' like your composer friend does.
If you're going to give opinions you have to be prepared to be get your opinions critiqued you know!!!
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
but perhaps you make a point wyogal. right I'm not gonna respond to any more critiques of the tune until the very end of the discussion after I've heard what others make of it.
That is if anyone is brave enough to join the discussion at this stage.........
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I thought that in general, there were some peculiar twists and turns that I really liked, such as the 1st bit:
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcBc | BGG^F GFDE | and this bit =FECE ^FGAD | ^FGAB GFGA | which reminded me of a Paddy Fahy tune, and this bit ...de^fa gfga | (3_bag (3ag^f gd (3_edc... It was just that for me, those bits didn't sound like they belonged in the same tune. I felt like I wanted to hear those turns, but not alongside each other, or something. Maybe it's the fact that the whole tune is pretty full-on peculiar. The thing with Reavy and Fahy tunes is that if there's a peculiar bit, like something that suggest the lydian mode, for example, that bit will nestle between phrases that sound totally trad, making the whole thing more palatable for someone who's used to trad tunes. I'm thinking of the B-part of the Letterkenny Blacksmith. The 1st phrase sounds weird, but it's "balanced" by a 2nd phrase that could have come from any tune in O'Neill's.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
It just seemed like you were pretty quick to jump on what I said, trying to argue the point, being defensive.
Yes, I would recommend that you wait and hear what people have to say. If you want to argue with their opinions, then I'd say the comment, "So I'd be interested to know what the rest of you think." is rather misleading.
I know that everybody likes to think their baby is beautiful and all, but if you ask what people think about something, they tell you, don't be so quick to jump on them if what they think is not akin to what you think.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
point taken wyogal, sorry for jumping on you so quickly
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Thanks. And after reading the comments, I'd like to learn a bit more about the composers that influenced you. (surely, some of you are going "duh" but I'm a newbie)
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Weird tune, I can't say that I would want to play it (too many accidentals for my taste) but if someone else wants to play it that is perfectly fine with me.
As for it being ITM or not, that is partly in how you play it, for instance if you played it solo on a piano slowly with some weird base runs it would sound more classical, but if you played it with a couple fiddles, a banjo, a flute, and a guitar it would sound more traditional.
Arlo
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Nopstavon
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Well wyogal glad to know at least I've stirred some interest in the composers I like.
Ed Reavy, Paddy Fahey, Finbarr Dwyer and Tommy Peoples would be my main tune composer influences. check out some of these tunes which I think were all written since around the 1950's and some much more recently
Reavy
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5552
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/295
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/304
Fahey
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1402
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7087
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2940
Dwyer
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/696
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2315
Peoples
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4486
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/488
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/671
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8411
Some of these tunes influence me for their use of accidentals, odd keys/modes etc. and others for their wide note span, Tommy Peoples has very wide leaps in his tunes for instance and while he doesn't change modes often he has some very strange turns in his tunes unlike anything written by anyone before him. Same can be said of the others.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
This isn't really about the tune, but I think that the way you, frisbee, responded to slainte was rude, condescending and unfair.... and that is as an uninvolved onlooker only. Also, when you later tried to say that what you said was not about slainte being Japanese (from your comment "The Japanese Trad Police have Arrived" and onward), I really don't know how else to interpret the things you wrote to be honest. Even in your backpeddaling about the whole thing you said that "he's no right to try to enforce his opinions" (!) because he doesn't live in a place where "he is surrounded by *Irish* musicians playing the music". Um, what? Really weird, since you then go on to say that there are Japanese people with a very good understanding of the music.... presumably there would be some in the large metropolitan area where slainte lives.... so why the insistance, even here, that they be "Irish"?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by gretchen
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I agree with most of what Dow has said. The tune has interest, but its insistence on getting every accidental in tends to overwhelm its potential for musical phrasing. "Over intellectual" comes to mind, but that's a highly subjective point--I simply don't like overly thought out music, compared to more intuitive or simply emotional compositions.
That said, I occasionally think through some motif to build a tune around, but I usually let other parts of the tune just unfold (typically by noodling around till a good phrase or two suggests themselves).
And I whioleheartedly agree with gretchen's scolding about how you responded to slainte. He's actually spent a lot of time in the Isles playing with great musicians. And the role he (and others) play in trying to preserve some Irish trad focus to the tune database is a valuable one, even if they don't succeed in filtering every tune. Without their sensibilities, the tunes here could easily be overrun by old timey, bluegrass, quebecois, scandanavian, and macedonian folk music. I don't mind the Box Tour being in the archives here, but I doubt many people will bother learning it. I know I won't--there are too many other tunes, including quirky "modern" ones, that I want to play with others at sessions.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
ok Gretchen perhaps I was a bit unfair about the whole thing with Slainte but you have to see it from my point of view that as an Irish person I find it pretty strange to have a Japanese person telling me that my music has nothing to do with the Irish tradition!
I can see how my Japanese Trad Police comment can be taken the wrong way though. The Japanese musicians I'm referring to are people who either live in or have lived in Ireland for a long time and I know none of them would say what Slainte said
'I don't think it's a good idea to post this kind of tune on this site.'
'It has nothing to do with the traditional music of Ireland.'
So I may have come across as rude, condescending and unfair to Slainte but surely you can see that he did it to me first in a less direct way.
This whole thing started with me innocently posting the tune and those were the first few comments I got so I was pretty annoyed and probably went overboard in my response. So there's two of us in it gretchen but for my part I'm happy to apologise for any offence caused......
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Dave, part of the problem is that just living in Ireland doesn't in itself qualitfy you as an expert on Irish trad music. In fact, American country music is a more likely strength for your Jeopardy categories.
And Hiroyuki actually knows a fair amount about Irish trad. He's a whistle and flute player, so your chromatic tune wouldn't thrill him....
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Personally I have some sympathies with frisbee. IMO in Scotland we have a much more relaxed attitude to tunes. If you like it play it, if you don't, don't. I hate comments like ''It has nothing to do with the traditional music of Ireland.'' The reality is that the origins of a large percentage of tunes played within the Irish tradition had nothing or little to do with the Irish tradition in the first place. Hundreds and hundreds of Scottish tunes, for example, are played in ITM and are Masons Apron, Mrs MacLeod, Sleepy Maggie etc are accepted as normal tunes to play. At one stage these tunes had nothing to do with ITM. No tune is truly traditional, every single one was written or adapted by someone at some time.
To me those that are parochial tune-wise just sound pathetic.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by bogman
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I know living in Ireland doesn't qualify anyone to being an expert on Irish traditional music, but it certainly helps in a very big way!
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
A step too far South!
What a brilliant conversation! Great to hear people getting passionate about something they believe so strongly in so fair play to Dave and Slainte respectively.
The main argument against the tune is the phrasing and musicians finding it hard to breath life into it because there are too many quavers etc... One of the keys to unlocking this tune for me personally is to understand the context in which it was written. It is part of the errigal suite, and mount errigal is in Donegal. Therefore, there is a strong Donegal influence inherent in the tune here, and the suite.
When I first heard it, I thought, oh my god, they've brought John Doherty back to life. Have a listen to his style, then try imagine himself playing it... With almost even articulation, starting off slow and getting faster.. I've heard it performed live this way and it is the most incredible journey of a tune. I could hardly sit on the seat at its debut when it started to lift!!
So, get out your old Donegal fiddle recordings, hear their chromaticism (the cassidys) and John Dohertys fiddling style. Then the fact that this has been re-created over 100 years on, is such an achievement for any composer.
One of the things I hope this tune will do is to get people thinking as they once did about tonality, and the amazing amount of possibilities inherent in our wonderful genre. (somebody provide a link to Caomhins JMI) They were all at it back in the day... we're never as bold or original as we'd like to think!
Martin.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by martin t
Re: Is this tune a step beyond steps?
Does it dance?
I still haven't found the Ebs...
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
It'd actually be so cool if someone wrote a dance for it!! You could easily dance to it... all about the way you play it.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by martin t
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I couldn't make head nor tail of it playing it from the music but would like to hear frisbee or Martin's version.
Me playing it from the dots didn't sound too enthralling, but I can do that to a tune
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Bren
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
repasted from the tunes comment section
'there's an Eb in the second last bar ceolachan, you hardly notice it but it's there!'
This really isn't meant for dancing to, it's meant for listening to. Reavy and Fahey both said the same about their tunes.
Still any good musician could make it sound like a dance tune and any good dancer could dance to it.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Just a technical question regarding the statement: "I'm not gonna respond to any more critiques of the tune until the very end of the discussion." How will you know when the very end has arrived? Mornington Crescent anyone?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
yeah as you can see I've changed my mind on that one Gary!
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Its a really really lovely tune and the beginning.
First part ends odd high notes after, |2 But I wish I had wrote the very first part of this tune ,,
Even nicer when played slower,,
The second part goe's out like one of my -''Out of my
head'' Improves ,,But has all the making's of a very Great reel - And I like the Ed Reavy twiddle bit (3_bag (3ag^f .
But hey am I not old of the old farts boys now,, Maybe the Salamancia Was thought of the same
way with the V.Old Guard,,
Like to here it tried with some of those sharps and flats took out..But a dam good try at being new,,
More to be Pondered than,,Discarded, I Think,,
jim,,,
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
What the bloody hell does that lot mean, Jim?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Martin said--- "So, get out your old Donegal fiddle recordings, hear their chromaticism (the cassidys) and John Dohertys fiddling style. Then the fact that this has been re-created over 100 years on, is such an achievement for any composer.
One of the things I hope this tune will do is to get people thinking as they once did about tonality..."
I said---
"My take on the "traditional" is a little different, I believe as much as traditional music has been established.. that it is still misunderstood and re rendered in ways that lose the complexities and sometimes subtle genius that inhabits it. So modern compositions (for me) are compared to "traditional" compositions/tunes where a high standard exists that few grasp completely, so the reality of me adding this tune to my "need to learn" list is low, but thats just where my romantic vision is fixed currently."
Interesting comparison of quotes here... Ive often thought that if John Doherty did come back and go to a modern session that there would be the possibilty of him being scutinized, becaus the music he played IS a different thing than what is being played now. So many standard traditional tunes go places where few can think of becuase they have been slapped with formulized chord structures that pigeon hole them in ways that they dont deserve.... I dont dislike this tune, but I didn't need it to get me thinking "about tonality." I see your point and respect it and if the tune does get people thinking about tonality in traditional music, then that's a good thing, Because as you said, it IS THERE in the tradition in ways that people explore for a lifetime.... and other people ignore for a lifetime.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I kinda like it. Like Dow, I’m a sucker for modal surprises and such. I thought the melody was interesting but I would’ve appreciated more rhythmic variation, maybe more contrast between the A and B parts.
In the tradition? Maybe a bit toward the fringe, a nice novelty.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I think what Martin said above about John Doherty and others is entirely right. There's nothing new under the sun, and there seems to be less new now than there used to be.
Meanwhile, I didn't take to the tune - but then again I haven't heard it played - for one main reason: it sounds to me like a basically decent tune that's had certain notes deliberately flattened or sharpened so as to bend the thing out of shape. If you put the thing back into a more resticted mode, without so many accidentals, I think it might be a better tune.
And I'm going to say this, even though I feel like I'm going to be attacked for it: it comes across to me like arrogance to post a discussion like this, which just suggests to me a challenge to *anybody* to *dare* not to like a tune that frisbee wrote. I've posted ONE tune of mine on here. It got attacked by slainte. I've let it lie. I certainly wouldn't have posted a discussion about it. But I suppose that's because I'm not a brilliant and important composer of tunes.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Ok I've done a recording on guitar and posted it here
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=416&Path=tourish%27s+tour.mp3
Would be better to hear Martin Tourish play it. I did it in one take with no edits so there are a few duff notes and it lacks a bit of life but it'll do for this purpose.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
benhall.1
What the bloody hell does that lot mean, Jim?
It means I like It, but theres to many sharps and flats
in it for me,,
jim,,,
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Benhall, I posted the tune and this discussion out of curiosity not arrogance. I really didn't expect some of the responses I've got, I didn't think it was that strange a tune but I see that it is a bit much for some people.
I'm a very direct person and I guess that can come across as arrogance to some people. So SCREW YOU BENHALL.1!!!!! - just kidding
Incidentally I wrote the tune intuitively with the aid of my banjo and my imagination.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Ah ... thanks Jim, I think that might have been what I was saying too.
frisbee, that recording's helpful. But it does clarify, for me at least, that the part I have the most problem with is the second part. The first part seems to hang together - by hook or by crook - but the second just seems to drag you too far away from where you expect to be. And not for good enough reason, IMHO. I still think less accidentals, particularly in that second part, would help.
Now, as I think Martin implied above, in its original context, it may have had an entirely different effect from the one it has when taken simply as a tune in its own right ...
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Ah SCREW YOU TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nuh-nuh I can do more '!'s than you.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I bet you see my point though ...
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
frisbee
Can I have that tune First part all but the last bar,
Please Please ,, lovelist Bit,,
jim,,,,
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I once had an arranging teacher that told me "if you have to explain your piece, then its shight"...but i did find my self enjoying your recording via the link you provided...especially the B section
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by jasbas
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
btw has anyone else noticed that the thing that's *really* wrong with it is it's a banjo tune?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
As far as I can see, there are 8400 tunes on this site already, and while I can see that the posting of nonsense should be discouraged, serious attempts at musical composition in Irish dance tune form (like the case in point) are perfectly acceptable. The morally correct response to a tune that you don't personally like is to write nothing at all in the "comments" section, and anyone who departs from this principal deserves everything they get.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Finbar Saunders2
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
what do you mean jim, do you want to take it and make a 'normal' tune out of it? if so be my guest.........
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
ha! jim likes the A part and jas bas likes the B part so I guess that means that someone who is half of Jim and half of jas bas put together will really like the whole tune!
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
frisbee
No - Only you can do that mate ,,but I love to hear the second part Re composed in keeping with that brill first part..
And I do Agree with benhall,1 This would really make a great Banjo tune,,
jim,,,
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
'but I love to hear the second part Re composed in keeping with that brill first part..'
that's not gonna happen jim, I like the tune as it is, so am not gonna change it. It came out naturally like that so it'd be a bit contrived to try to go back on it now.
If you like the first half so much you'd probably like Reavy's 'Old Cameronian' which has a similar opening. If I was to rewrite it to make it more 'traditional' then it might just sound like a forgotten Reavy tune!
Don't think the Old Cameronian's on this site, it seems itself to be based on the Cameronian but is quite different.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
frisbee
Dont Change the tune -If Ed Reavy and Tony sully {banjo}
had Done that = What a loss,,
jim,,
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
don't worry I'm not gonna change it just cos it's not 'traditional' enough for a few begrudgers.
Incidentally I don't mean to sound crass but I heard your playing on sound lantern and enjoyed it a lot jim. I think Charlie Lennon would enjoy your version of his tune.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
This thread is getting brill!!!
Seeing Dave gave his permission, I'd love to see other peoples interpretations of the tune posted. I'd like to see an attempt by fiddle4 at a new second part and maybe someone else to take out a few accidentals or rhythmically varying it.
This wouldn't be as a competition or rivalary, but a wonderful example of everyones take on the same thing. It'd be the first time it's really happened on this site also...
I don't think I'd be the man to play with its compositional structure but if i get a chance, I might bang down a version of it.
This is what folk music is about: everyones individuality being expressed through the medium of the same raw materials. (tunes)
I think, we'd be taking a huge step in the developement of trad if we had the get up and go to make our own interpretations of Daves piece (in this case) and post them for discussion.
Who dares?!!!!!!!
The bold Mr T.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by martin t
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Who cares?!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Just for a laugh because I can't sleep thought I'd learn how to use that soundlantern.....not in frisbees league of course
and don't panic, I'm not putting it into the tunes section
http://www.soundlantern.com:80/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=417&Path=Almost May.mp3
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
frisbee
my version of the first part --Mate,,,,,Dont mean to offend
You have wrote a very good tune,,
X:12
T:Tourish's Tour Around The Box
M:4/4
L:1/8
R:reel
K:Cmaj
DE |:
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcBG |(3AG^F G3z|
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcAG | BGA/^c/e/ d2z||
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Or this last bar -my abc 's are Hopeless-
BG^ce d2z||
jim,,
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
What no one has said yet about this tune that all it's phrases are constricted by the bar lines. This, I'm afraid frisbee, leaves it the category of the mundane. No amount of clever turns and accidentals can save it. Sorry.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Not Completely- This is the way I would play this tune ,If
I had the skill to do the flats and sharps Right,,jim,,
X:12
T:Tourish's Tour Around The Box
M:4/4
L:1/8
R:reel
K:Cmaj
DE |:
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcBG |(3AG^F G3z|
=FEFG cFAF | dGBd d^cAB | =cBcF AcAG | BG^ce d2||
GA|:
_BAGA =BcdB | d^cAG ^FDDE | =FECE ^FGAD |^FGAB GFGA|
_BAGA =BcdB | d^cAG ^FDDE | =FECE ^FGAD |^FGAB G4||
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
X: 1
T: Tourish's Tour Around The Box
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Cmaj
DE |: =FEFG cFAF dGBd d^cAB =cBcF AcBc BGG^F GFDE =FEFG cFAF
dGBd d^cAB 1=cBce d^cAG ^FA^ce d2DE :|2=cBce de^fa | a^ged ^ceA2
|: _BAGA =BcdB d^cAG ^FDDE =FECE ^FGAD ^FGAB GFGA
_BABd c=Bce de^fa gfga (3_bag (3ag^f gd (3_edc |1 =Bc^fa g2 GA :|2 =BGG^F G2
Just for you Llig!!!!!!!
Ha!!!
And fair play to fiddle4!! I think this is class!!!! Who's next!!
Oh and great tune wolfbird!!!
Martin
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by martin t
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
that's how you 'see' it michael, it wasn't written like it looks on paper. if played right it has a flow about it that takes it out of bar-lines, for instance I think of the first two bars of the second half as one long phrase and plenty of notes before barlines are part of the phrase in the next bar. It is not all four square, maybe that's how it sounds when I play it but it's not meant to.
Then again we rarely agree on things michael so I'd hardly expect you say anything other than what you have, in fact I take it as a compliment that you find it mundane
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Martin
Good take I am Impressed..
jim,,
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I never looked at it on paper, only listened to your recording. Every phrase is the same length:
deedle // dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de dum de deedle dum de/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de deedle dum de deedle/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de dum de deedle dum de/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de deedle dum de deedle//
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de dum de deedle dum de/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de deedle dum de deedle/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de dum de deedle dum de/
dum de dum de, deedle dum de / dum de deedle dum de deedle//
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
yep I didn't play it very well, I can admit that and even said so when posting it, the guitar isn't the best instrument for getting phrasing into tunes like this, hopefully Martin will put a recording up somewhere so you can hear that an instrument with better sustain can phrase it nicer than I did.
I'd do a fiddle recording of it but I think that would only complicate matters!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: a step too far from long ago
Hey just posted a tune called The Caledonian No. 3. Have a look and tell me what your thoughts are on its unusually high level of structural chromaticism. Also, I didn't compose this... It's a genuine tune from the late 1800's, East Donegal.
Enjoy.
Martin.
p.s. Llig, you're gas!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by martin t
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Martin
1800's, you say - Who said the Young one are so cool-lol
jim,,,
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
now you see that bit in the middle of the weird old jig is more chromatic than anything in my tune. in my tune there really isn't any direct chromaticism, i.e. no three notes are connected chromatically. That's something I got from Reavy and Co.
and if chromaticism offends any of you then you better avoid this old nugget
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3459
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Yopu know what I find really annoying about all this? Frisbee posts in the first posting of "his" tune in the tune section:
"Spot prize goes to the first person who successfully learns this and uploads a recording of it somewhere."
And then the first recording of it is posted by himself.
And all this bloody "Ed Reavy, Paddy Fahey, Finbarr Dwyer and Tommy Peoples would be my main tune composer influences".
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
well I'm glad I annoyed you michael, you're normally the one who annoys everyone else
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
You are all getting hung up on the chromaticism. Good tunes are about the interesting juxtaposition, turning and completion of phrases. How phrases build a whole. How phrases surprise and fit together.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
you're just hung up full stop!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Are you not interested in my criticism?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
...
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
not your criticism michael, cos all you do on this site is criticise in a negative way.
I don't expect you of all people to like it so you can say what you like about it, I rarely take anything you say seriously. Every now and again you come up with some common sense such as
'Good tunes are about the interesting juxtaposition, turning and completion of phrases. How phrases build a whole. How phrases surprise and fit together'.
If you don't think my tune has these ingredients that's your opinion but I beg to differ.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Just an observation (thought I had already made this point):
When you ask what people think, and they tell you, take it. The immediate knee-jerk reaction to those that don't particularly like the tune smells of arrogance. One should not have to explain one's music when given criticism. The music needs to speak for itself. It should not need explanation of it's structure, or excuses about a recording one has made of it, etc.
It's just a tune.
Some will like it, others won't. No amount of explanation will sway either.
Thanks for posting tunes by those other composers, by the way.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Ah lads! I personally believe that folk music is neither good or bad: it's relevant.
Now can we get back to talking about music!!
Anyhow Llig, phrasing is heavily affected by harmonic change and that being the theme of this tune, suggests that numerous phrasings are indeed possible. Ones opinion on exactly where this tunes modal and harmonic emphasis shifts determines how one would phrase it and that is going to lead to some very interesting interpretations down the line indeed!
Martin
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by martin t
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
yeah but some people like Michael don't give constructive criticism, there has been plenty of constructive criticism which I've appreciated but the kind of carp Michael bleats out most of the time is very destructive and deliberately so but perhaps you're right again wyogal maybe I should just ignore it.
Think I'll go to bed and dream up a nice simple tune to post next time..........
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17286/comments#comment359655
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16895/comments#comment351399
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
wow that's amazing, are they the only two times you've made a nice comment here Michael?!!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
definitely off to bed now.....
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Egad! After that shoenberg piece that you posted, frisbee, I will never ever tell anyone that they sound like shoenberg. Where did they find the notes, in a trash bin?
By the way, what was that woman complaining about in the piece?
The dog, who is tone-deaf, got up and went outside, unwilling to come back in, and he's tolerant of my screeching.
I wish you would post a recording of your tune. I would like to hear it played by someone who can do it well.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Ron Foreman
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
firsbee denigrates anyone's views that he doesn't like, and this thread certainly isn't the first time. If he'd actually bother to take in what michael has said, he might just learn something. But he seems to think he's "above" that.
It's bad enough when someone gets instantly defensive over critiques of their work, but it's a bit mad when you explicitly ask for it and then can't take it.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Your tune is much more coherent than Schoenberg. I think this is the type of tune that Flook would just jump on. I've heard lots of tunes like this played up Manchester way. I wouldn't compare it to the likes of Reavy or Fahey, but I would say it has a certain Liz Carroll quality about it when played quickly. Esp her older compositions. Would anyone like to debate that she's not trad? It's all about perspective and interpretation. On another note, it's not up to slainte or anyone else to decide what is trad and what's not. Obviously, this tune has its roots in Celtic music. Those of us who've played and listened to the music for a good time know when a tune is just downright out of the realm of Celtic/Irish music. This tune is well within the confines. Fair play!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Odin
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Oh, I'd also like to mention that with all the BS going on in the world today, this whole debate seems a little trivial relative to some black dots on a piece of paper in a sea of a million tunes.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Odin
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Although it's an easy, and often lazy, approach to message board discussions, I don't think the sort of ad hominem attacks that Frisbee seems to be leveling really elevate the discussion here.
I also don't get the point of taking the argument to the larger message board, it smacks of tattling on a schoolyard fight.
So at this point I'm not even commenting on the point of this thread, I'm commenting on the process of this thread's point.
As to Llig and his comments, I find his often brief statements to have more insight than much of what's posted on this mustard board
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by dirtyheel
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I listened to the recording and found it excruciatingly boring. Reminded me of little kids that come to my house and poke randomly and quickly at the keys of my piano. Frisbee, since you felt compelled to post it, you should have let it slide into oblivian instead of drawing so much attention to it and you.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I think it's a tune that grows on you, after you've tried playing it or listened to it a few times . The first time I tried playing it I wasn't sure if I liked it, but after a few more goes and getting some variation into it it's definitely growing on me .Maybe when I think I've got it well enough I'll put my interpretation up on Sound Lantern too. To me it doe's remind me of some of Finbarr Dwyer's tunes.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
If I was going to use some of the ideas for a tune, whilst keeping the whole chromatic thing, I'd probably chop huge chunks out of it and simplify it loads, ending up with something like this off the top of my head:
K: Ddor
E|~=F3A cFAc|dGBd efgf|eccB cedc|BGG^F G=FDE|
=FCFA dcBA|BGBd gfed|ec~c2 AcGE|FDDC D3:|
|:A|de^fa ~g3a|_bgg^f g=fde|fc~c2 fga^f|~g2dc _BGDE|
=FCFA dcBA|BGBd gfed|ec~c2 AcGE|FDDC D3:|
That'd be how I'd make sense of it for myself. Yeah ok, I didn't get to use that nice snippet from the middle of the B-part, but I'd just try and work that into another tune or something.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
So, frisbee lays into anyone who dares criticise this "tune," (including a racist attack on slainte) and seems surprised when anyone responds.
I think we can draw our own conclusions.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Here's a hornpipe version I started playing with, in F:
K: Fmaj
F3A cFAc|dGBd efgf|ecc=B cedc|BGG^F GCEG|
FEFA cFAc|dGBd efgf|eccd cBGE|1 F2FE F2 (3BAG:|2 F2
FE F3G||
|:cdeg f3g|affg fecd|~_e3d egf=e|fecB GFEG|
FEFA cFAc|dGBd efgf|eccd cBGE|1 F2FE F3G:|2 F2FE F2 (3BAG||
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Yeah I agree, that firsbee guy is a terrible racist, belligerent guy who wouldn't know a good tune if it hit him. He should just sit back and accept the criticism of those who say this is a mundane, boring tune which has nothing to do with the tradition.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Thats a bit harsh Chad.
I think Will nailed it though.
Frisbee's done it before, and most of his threads seem to slag things off. (From haircuts, to pubs). However when things don't go his way......RUNNNNNN...
The annoying thing is, having met him once or twice, he seems like a nice fellow. His online presence doesn't befit him.
If Dave had spent more time in the 'tunes' section, he'd understand what an important contributor Slainte is. Those comments come up all the time, but I think as most people do who know him, have to understand a lot is often lost in Translation.
You know, there's a Masters Degree in Cyber psychology here in Dun Laoghaire. It sounds interesting.....You could learn so much about certain posters.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
QED
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
PS - Thats not directed at any poster in particular.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
So when did I meet you before Hugo (if that is your real name)? Did I act nice? Must have been an off day for me
Oh and if you look at the tune comments sections you'll see that it seems me and Slainte have patched things up so those politically correct people accusing me of racism can get off their high horses now.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
see trouble with me is it's sometimes hard to tell when I'm being serious and when I'm just taking the p*ss to rise people.....I'm not sure myself half the time
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Were you just taking the p*ss with this tune then?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Agreed.
Slainte's a nice fellow, who comes across very direct - his intentions are always positive though. His contributions here are very valuble.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
ignoring the main arguement, I can't play the sound clips at work, nor drag out my abnjo for a go myself. I'll jump in with an aside...
as are any other tunes named after the composer, but other than that any suggestions?
Is there any way to search the tunes database by composer? Obviously the Paddy Fahey tunes are easy to find
Cheers - Chris
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
HA..You're some man Michael
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
chris, just type in a composers name in the tune search and some of their tunes will come up, otherwise look up the composers in google and you'll find reference to tunes they've written.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
just use the surname
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
When I first heard this tune I Though , thats way over the top
But now I think its what cathy said -
>>I think it's a tune that grows on you,
jim,,,,
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Frisbee – this tune sounds nothing like Fahy, Dwyer, Reavey. Part of the thing that made their tunes traditional was that people were able to play them. Ok so Scott Skinner may have been able to play this piece (personally I think he would have turned his nose up at it) but do you really think the rural players of the early 20th century would have been able to play it?
“I think it's sad that the trad police seem to have opened up a branch in Japan and you've appointed yourself chief of police!!”
Every civilized society has a police force Frisbee.
“There you go Dow, a good constructive comment.”
Patronising or what!!
“it's actually easy enough to write tunes that sound just like they were written two hundred years ago.”
Please keep going this is too good!!
Martin T – Its very commendable that you are delving into the belly of your Donegal heritage and thanks for the link to The Caledonian.
Oh and by the way did you compose that tune you played on the Gradam Ceol? Congratulations by the way, I couldn’t help noticing the name of it – Liobhan Song – a spoonerism of Siobhan Long! Intentional or not?
“When I first heard it, I thought, oh my god, they've brought John Doherty back to life.”
Believe me he’s spinning in his grave….
Loving this thread!!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I rather enjoyed the tune, especially when I hear frisbee’s ‘bucket guitar version and it starts to come alive. $00.02US
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by fidkid
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
You play this tune to Seamus Tansey and tell us what he thinks...
I bet criticism won't be restricted to 'foreigners'.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by kuec
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
"He should just sit back and accept the criticism of those who say this is a mundane, boring tune which has nothing to do with the tradition."
Ummmm, yes. You asked, people told you. And it is just their opinion.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Jeremy's original intentions was that the tunes should be representative of those which might be heard in a typical Irish session. Of course, they didn't need to be universally popular but the guidelines were that you had either heard them on your travels or they featured within your "local session".
Using this criteria, there's surely no problem with including tunes which might not sound particularly Irish or structured in a slightly different way. They could also include tunes from other countries(Scotland, the most obvious example) or cultures, hybrids etc as long as they got a fairly regular airing somewhere.
On the other side of the coin, should a tune automatically be submitted JUST because it meets some determined criteria for an "approved" structure of an Irish tune whether a new composition or otherwise? It might be very obscure, possibly not even very good and be of no real benefit to the Tune Section.
Just started a new thread about this
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17325
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Johnny Jay
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Right it seems this discussion is running out of steam, I'm quite tired of it at this stage myself so I'll leave by saying this.
This discussion was originally posted because someone objected to me posting the tune on this site.
It seems at least some of you find the tune interesting or worthwhile so to me that's justification for posting it. The person who originally objected to it being posted has since retracted this.
The tune is not everyone's cup of tea, I never thought it would be but at least the unusual nature of it got people talking and if nothing else introduced some people to the concept that Irish tunes aren't all simply restricted to one key or mode.
In defending the tune I've come across to some people as rude and belligerent, fair enough, I apologise for any offence caused but don't apologise for posting the tune or inciting debate.
Anyway that's it from me, think I'll take a break from this website for a while. It's too time consuming. I can hear you all cheering now...........
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
As I said I might, here's a link to my take on this tune;
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=422&Path=Tourish%27s+tour+around+the+box.mp3
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
bloody hell
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
"This discussion was originally posted because someone objected to me posting the tune on this site."
So, you really don't want to know what people think of the tune, you just want to argue with people that don't like it. You really just want to poke people with a stick.
I don't care at this point about discussions regarding your tune, I don't care who influenced your composition.
I'm done with an open mind about it, as your intentions were just to inflame.
Personally, I don't like your tune. I thought it wasn't really musical, especially the B section.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Once you get out they drag you back in......
Martin Tourish asked me to post this on sound lantern cos he wasn't sure how to do it. This is him playing the tune, if you don't like it after hearing him play it you'll probably never like it.
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=423&Path=Tourish%27s+Tour+Around+the+Box.mp3
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
hold on a minute that file didn't work for some reason, will be back again in a minute..
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
I don't hear it... I'll try again.
BTW, The tune is not controversial, it's the way you've gone about it, quite defensive, asking, but not really wanting, feedback.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
ok something weird going on over at Sound Lantern, I uploaded the file on my page and it replaced Cathy's version of the tune for some reason! tried again and the same thing happened.
Sorry Cathy you'll have to ask your friends at Sound Lantern to check that out. In the meantime if you want to hear Martin play the tune check out Cathy's link!
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=422&Path=Tourish%27s+tour+around+the+box.mp3
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
God, this thread has become mad! Well, I thought i'd give the tune a blast anyhow so there it is!
VocalDivaStead... Yeah, I wrote the Liobhan Song and there might have been an anagram in there alright!!!
All the best,
Tour.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by martin t
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
It's sounds better. But it's no better.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Hi Frisbee,
that's really strange, I've emailed Basil at Sound Lantern to see if he can sort it! Good to hear Martin's version anyway.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Told you frisbee you had a good tune there- cathys Version,,
Just proves that,,
jim,,,
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Jim,
I think you heard Martin Tourish, there, not myself, something weird happened on Sound Lantern, and the recording of Martin has misteriously supplanted the one of me on my channel! Hopefully it will get sorted soon, meanwhile go to my channel to hear Martin Tourish play the tune on box, my fiddle version has disapeared.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Ok Cathy -- Comment I left on your site =
Oh well its much better - Tell him sharron would make a fortune with this one ,,Her being in the Know. jim,,,,
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
This is not an attack on you, or your tune but simply how I see this.
**
'This discussion was originally posted because someone objected to me posting the tune on this site.'
People object to tunes being posted in the 'tunes' section everyday, but rarely has a discussion been started about it...
There is a 'comments' section for a reason. It doesn't matter a shi*e if he's from Japan or Skibereen. He respects this music.
'It seems at least some of you find the tune interesting or worthwhile so to me that's justification for posting it. '
The tune or the discussion? Does this mean, everytime somebody posts one of their own tunes, they should post a discussion alongside it? NO THANKS.
'The person who originally objected to it being posted has since retracted this.'
I bet deep down he still feels exactly the same.
'but at least the unusual nature of it got people talking '
No. Your dedicated discusion, and reactions did that.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Jeremy will simply paste all this into the comments next to the tune anyway and delete it from the discussions.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
well said hugo.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
This has to be entirely the most important tune in the tradition.
Well, at least in theSession database ... I'm sure no tune has received more comments and analysis.
Well done, frisbee! I'm sure you'll get an entry in the field guides to traditional music now.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by grego
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
There's actually another tune in theSession database, which received more comments and analysis. I wish I could delete my comments about it.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by slainte
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Go on slainte "name that tune"
- Chris
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Start off fresh Slainte.
Be all positive and nice. Here's a dinger.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8428/comments#comment360649
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
That's a very popular tune penned by a French man.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by slainte
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Nope, your turn, el presidente.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by slainte
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Frisbee, let's be honest; no matter how hard you try you'll never reach the dizzy heights of the Purple Headed Monster or the Samurai.
leave it to the experts
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Frisbee ~ "ha! jim likes the A part and jas bas likes the B part so I guess that means that someone who is half of Jim and half of jas bas put together will really like the whole tune!"
Or completely not like it at all
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Is this tune a step too far?
Fris' asked a fair question... "Is this tune a step too far?"
Even though what I wrote previously was eloquent beyond compare, I must admit that I didn't clearly answer the question.
Is this tune a step too far?
No. He had every right to post it. God knows it's better than "Wizard's Walk"... ALOT BETTER!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by The Merry Highlander