I have just completed a new 5 string violin that is made form Bubinga rather than the traditional maple. This is a wonderful sounding fiddle...everything that maple has only more of it!
Strong mid range which Celtic and Bluegrass players seem to really like. I wish I could post some photos here.
How many of you players have switched to a 5 string?
I don't know what's funnier: thinking that you can learn how to play an instrument from a one-page instructional document, or thinking you can teach someone how to play an instrument by making a one-page instructional document.
However, I only said I *don't* play viola, not that I can't. Bit like the definition of a Scottish gentleman - one who *can* play the pipes ... but doesn't.
My, I've been looking for something about grandparents and sucking eggs on that eHow site, without luck, but these opening instructions from its viola page are priceless.
Step 1
Find a private area with a straight backed chair and a music stand.
Step 2:
Open the viola case and place the instrument base upon your lap.
And there's more than a hundred pages of ridiculous propositions listed by this site, including 'how to dress like Amy Winehouse' , 'how to play U2 riffs' and 'how to play trumpet with one hand' (presumably the other's rapidly penning all these articles).
Ok, naive question here perhaps, but, what is wrong with playing a five string? Doesn't it have the same four top strings as a violin but have the added benefit of a fifth lower string?Surely it's convenient to have another lower string to play? And, don't Viola's have their own cleff? Whereas I would assume that a five string violin stayed in the treble cleff?
Nothing wrong with playing a 5-string fiddle per se. The problem lies in overcoming the technical difficulties in making them - which must be why they haven't been made by the great makers and become part of the mainstream violin family over the last few hundred years. If the great luthiers of the 17th century onward had thought 5-strings were feasible we can be sure that they would be common today and the history of music for the instrument would have been markedly different.
tlittlewazzock and other luthiers on this site will have far more to say on the subject than I could usefully contribute, but it seems to me that the addition of a 5th string starts to come close to the mechanical limits of the instrument, and this in turn adversely affects the tonal qualities. An electronic 5-stringer, as used by some folk and pop groups, is usually more successful because there is no acoustic cavity and the sound is controlled by the electronics.
Bach wrote a suite for a 5-string cello (with an E-string above the A), and Schubert also wrote a cello sonata (the "Arpeggione") for a 5-string cello. Both works are commonly played today on the standard cello without any technical problems, except that the 5-part chords in the Sarabande of the Bach suite have to be modified for the standard 4-string cello. As far as I know, no examples of a 5-string cello from Bach's time now exist, but a handful of modern 5-string cellos have been made to order.
I stand to be corrected on this, but it seems to me that it is more sensible to make a 5-string viola (with an E-string) than a 5-string fiddle (with a C-string), because the viola is inherently stronger, its designed for a C-string, its tone colour differs from that of the fiddle, and could perhaps carry the E-string more successfully.
Ha ha, that's priceless. The difference between a violin and a viola is that there is a different convention in how music is written for them.
Come on now, it's nothing to do with the flexibility of having a wider range. It's the sound. Listen to a violin's bottom three strings. Then listen to a viola's top three strings. They are quite simply different instruments.
I agree, they are two different instruments. I also play violin and viola. I've considered a 5 string electric, but I really didn't like it. I like the viola. And I like the violin. I don't think a 5 string offers the best of both, in fact, in my opinion, it's kind of the opposite. There are folks that play 7-string fiddles, but it really is a different style of music, a different way of playing, and the instrument itself is different. Yes, there are similarities, but that's about it, similarities.
My 5 string design is not intended to be a combo violin/viola. It is specifically designed to be a 5 string violin that provides the player an extended tonal range. The classical world will not accept this any time soon but it is well received in all the other major genres'
There are many well known makers who have waiting list that are making 5 string violins or 5 string violas. The problem with always looking backwards and saying if "Stradivari" did not make it it can't be a worthwhile endeavor is IMHO the wrong way to look at music. The musical demands are much different that in the Baroque. If that logic was correct then the neck projections and longer fingerboards to accommodate modern classical music and larger concert halls would never have come about.
I made a 5 string, the sound was not great, the wider neck was not easy to handle and lesser string angles not good either. I did not play it so I put a huge bass bar in and turned it into an octave 4 string which works a lot better. I'll bring it along sometime if you are about for a tune Ben.
Such an instrument is never going to work at all successfully acoustically. However, if it's primary function is for it to be amplified, then that's another matter. And seeings as 99.9% of music performed is amplified, good luck to you.
The ubiquitous prevalance of amplification these days opens up a whole new set of options for instrument makers to invent new things. Or should I say, "removes the requirement of an acoustic instrument to behave like one".
You've showed it me before Gavin. As you know, though, I'm a miserable stick in the mud. No adventure in my soul. For no good reason I will persist in liking the fiddle.
Conversely ... why not invent a 3 string violin? If you play with flute and pipes a lot, you don't "need" your G string. Design an instrument that doesn't have to cope with the extra resonance of it and so can bring out more of the upper register.
We need to let folks like Mark O'Conner, Casey Driessen, Darol Anger , Tania Elizabeth and Brittney Haas know that the acoustic five strings they are playing are not going to work. I guess that they need to give back the money they have made playing to big crowds and CD sales too.
Also the makers like Jon Cooper and John Silakowski who have waiting list of people wanting their 5 string instruments, that it is not going to work for them either!
I'm serious about the three string fiddle though. You could make it much narrower and flatter (same length obviously) and lighter. Think how portable it would be. Great for travelling, and you could still play ALL the tunes it.
http://orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/violine/vl-quintonTk.htm
Unfortunately, the photos and text in that link give no indication of a most important parameter if that fiddle uses a C-string - namely the depth of ribs which helps define the resonance volume. I've seen (and briefly played on) a very nice 14" viola (violin-size) which sounds as a viola should because it has the depth of ribbing a viola needs.
That old 5-stringer dating from 1700, and still in its original setup, would also be using gut strings and probably tuned to A-415 or thereabouts. A very different sound to what is required today.
I suspect that a modern hand-made 3-string fiddle wouldn't sound quite the same as a 4-string. Without the G and with different overall tension the resonances would be different. I would think that it's not just a case of taking a string away; bridge, soundpost and base-bar would have to be redesigned to give the right sort of sound, not to mention the neck, fingerboard and pegbox if you're doing the job properly.
Having said that, there aren't all that many tunes in ITM that would be completely unplayable on a 3-stringer ("Grumbling Old Man And Cackling Old Woman" and its ilk come to mind); flutes often manage to get round the absence of notes below D.
Agreed, its the depth that is the essential characteristic. Which is why a 5 string fiddle might not be able to support the C string, A 5 string viola, I think, is more suitable. The E string perhaps might suffer but I have a couple of 5stringers and have not noticed.
Sure, there are not so many tunes that use all 4 strings but some of my favs do, like Dr Gilbert,
I think the advances of string technology have 'raised' the bar so to speak, what might not have worked 100 yrs ago may well today
Just because famous players are playing 5 string "fiddles," It doesn't mean that they are using them at sessions, or for everything they do. When I played with Mark O'Connor, he was using a regular fiddle (I use the term "regular" loosely, referring to a 4-string). When I did workshops with Anger, he was using a 4-string. Then there's Mark Woods and his 7-string fretted, strap-on (yes!) electric. Which I don't want to play, but enjoyed listening to him shred with it.
I think that when one brings this discussion up on a forum such as this, one ought to understand that the responses will be varied and not at all in line with what the original poster may think.
If you look in the youtube video of Casey Driessen linked above you will see him playing into a mic.
I have seen Darol, Tania and David Blackmon all ply into mics at festivals and clubs.
By the way the 5 string Casey is playing is a John Silakowski.
Of course, Trev, everything on a three stringed fiddle would have to re-designed and it would not sound like the top three strings on a regular fiddle. That's the whole point of the conversation. The bottom four strings on a five string viola are not going to sound like a regular viola and the top four strings on a five string fiddle are not going to sound like a fiddle. This can either matter to you or not, it's no problem, but don't kid yourself that what you are getting is a regular fiddle or viola, but with a greater range. I love my fiddle and my viola and the idea that I could amalgamate the two into one instrument just doesn't appeal. What I'd lose from both would not be worth it.
I've been listening to Maxim Vengarov with Lawrence Power playing the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante for Violin and Viola. It's the exploration of the differences between the instruments that make it. It's brilliant
But this is very different music to the stuff I play. This music is simple and 99% of it falls within the range of the open D string on the fiddle to the B on the E string. The music is simple, so why not make the instrument simpler? Design an instrument with the music in mind. I imagine a really bright sounding instrument with a higher tension than a regular fiddle which would help your snappy rolls etc. You could make the body thinner and not as deep, but longer, as there is no need to move your left hand out of first position. And for ease of portability, the bow could be the same length as the instrument - you don't need a full length bow for diddley music. And what effect would putting the sound post under the D string have? I bet you'd get a really strong open D, especially with the extra tension.
Come on instrument makers, think about it. I bet there's a market for a dedicated diddley fiddle. We know that as far as the sound goes, you have to compromise when you add a string. So what could you gain if you lost one?
Have you actually played on a well made 5 stringer? or even a cheapie? I wonder if you are talking theory or practice....
Are you a luthier? do you know some theory, perhaps you could explain why a 5 stringer is a compromise.
Well, I think that those who play 5-string fiddles often play certain styles suited to a such, and best of luck to them. And stradibarrius: Those are really beautiful instruments! I'm glad that you've found a market for those, I bet those paying for and playing them are very pleased. Just like I'm pleased with a 4 string - my style is based around 4 string fiddle (not that I play much fiddle).
I don't think there's much of a marked for 3-string fiddles in Irish music - but I'd like to hear if any of you every goes down that road - must be a different sound/tone, and thus interesting for the rest of us to hear!
Well I played a 4string for 15yrs before moving up in size to a viola, with 5strings. love the extra size, though its a bit heavier.... I find many possibilities have opened up, tunes in different keys. but the C string , for me , simply expands the range... , great for chords and stuff...
Check Darol's5 string forum out http://5stringviolins.com/forum/ Darol, Casey, Tania and David all play 5 strings as their #1 instrument now.
"I think that when one brings this discussion up on a forum such as this, one ought to understand that the responses will be varied and not at all in line with what the original poster may think." What kind of forum is "this one"??
I think if you read the original thread, I ask a question and made no statement of fact. I also stated that the 5 string is not for everyone. You are the one who turned this into a negative thread with the attitude that it can't work, sound good or be played by real men!
For those of you who are open to something new, not a replacement for the existing, I hop[e you try a 5 string someday.
I never said a five string wouldn't/couldn't sound good. I just said they could not work/sound like a regular violin or viola. The whole point is that they are different instruments, and I applaud that - especially as the need for them to work acoustically is removed. I'm not being negative, choice is great.
What jig says about the possibilities being opened up, tunes in different keys, the C string expanding the range is fine - if that's what you are looking for in your music.
Jig also mentions his five string viola is "a bit heavier". Yeah, it would be. I often play tunes, regular full on session speed sets (all of the tune, rolls, bowing etc but an octave down, and with the much heavier viola bow) on my viola and it's great fun. But feckin hell, I'm feckin knackered after after it. And when I get back to the fiddle it's like playing a toy.
Stradibarrius, I have played five string fiddle things and I've acually found them to constric rarther than to expand my musical range (or maytbe I've just never played a good one).
(And no one has mentioned the bow yet? My fiddle bow and my viola bow are as important to the differences between the instruments as the instruments themselves.)
But back to the three stringed fiddle. What do you reckon? What could you make one sound like? Any instrument design is a compromise between the higher frequencies and the lower ones. Do you not think that designing an instrument that focuses on a less, rarther than an a more axpanded range, would be interesting?
Yeah, and the five string doesn't sound like a viola or a fiddle, and 'cause they are all miked individually, you have no idea what the real balance of the instrument;s might really be.
For me experimentation is always interesting. Some ideas work and other don't.
The three string idea is one I have never thought about. I am not sure I understand the reason for going to a 3 string. Don't mis-understand I am not saying it is a bad idea, I'm saying I would be interested in hearing thoughts as to why a 3 string might be a good idea.
A four string violin/viola's design and construction is a compromise to get the low notes and the high ones working in harmony. A five string is even more of a compromise. Could not a three string instrument be more focused? Especially if you didn't have to make the body short enough to get your left hand into anything above 1st position.
I just think that you could make a really loud, bright, small instrument if you loose the G string. It would/could be perfectly suited to traditional Irish music.
The design of all instruments that play more than one note is a compromise to get them all sounding OK. You must be aware of some fiddles where the top end is great but the bottom ent too week? etc
The fiddle in question is currently in Shetland, being played by a superb Danish fiddler called Henrik Jansberg. Not only have I played it myself and loved it instantly, but this thread came up in conversation at Monday night's session when we were taking the mickey out of Irish sessions that don't allow non-Irish tunes and the people who practically live on ITM discussion forums. He mentioned the thread and how the poor luthier was sandbagged before the conversation moved onto three-stringed fiddles, and I remembered reading it ... we had a great laugh about the whole thing. Just thought I'd look up the thread, re-read it, have another great laugh and share that little anecdote with you all.
New 5 string violin I made
New 5 string violin I made
I have just completed a new 5 string violin that is made form Bubinga rather than the traditional maple. This is a wonderful sounding fiddle...everything that maple has only more of it!
Strong mid range which Celtic and Bluegrass players seem to really like. I wish I could post some photos here.
How many of you players have switched to a 5 string?
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by Stradibarrius
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I think I caught a glimpse of it over on the Maestronet forums. Very nice!
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by jasten
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I play violin and viola. They are different instruments
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Post some links to the pictures. would love to see them.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by session savage
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Well, you could post links to some photos, which is probably at least as good as posting the photos themselves.
... not that I'm interested - I'm in the same camp as Michael on this one ... except that I don't play viola ...
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Here you go Ben ...
http://www.ehow.com/how_908_play-viola.html
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by jamascc
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I don't know what's funnier: thinking that you can learn how to play an instrument from a one-page instructional document, or thinking you can teach someone how to play an instrument by making a one-page instructional document.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by mcdevincabe
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Why, thank you, jamascc!
However, I only said I *don't* play viola, not that I can't. Bit like the definition of a Scottish gentleman - one who *can* play the pipes ... but doesn't.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Hey, try this: http://www.ehow.com/how_2089473_play-tin-whistle.html
Fabulous! Now I know where I've been going wrong all these years!! Hah!!
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by cyber-bullying is a criminal offence
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Advertise yer useless **** somewhere else.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by Farr
Re: New 5 string violin I made
What more could you possibly want? lol
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by jamascc
Re: New 5 string violin I made
My, I've been looking for something about grandparents and sucking eggs on that eHow site, without luck, but these opening instructions from its viola page are priceless.
Step 1
Find a private area with a straight backed chair and a music stand.
Step 2:
Open the viola case and place the instrument base upon your lap.
And there's more than a hundred pages of ridiculous propositions listed by this site, including 'how to dress like Amy Winehouse' , 'how to play U2 riffs' and 'how to play trumpet with one hand' (presumably the other's rapidly penning all these articles).
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New 5 string violin I made
No, no, Mac. That's not what the other hand is doing at all ...
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Ok, naive question here perhaps, but, what is wrong with playing a five string? Doesn't it have the same four top strings as a violin but have the added benefit of a fifth lower string?Surely it's convenient to have another lower string to play? And, don't Viola's have their own cleff? Whereas I would assume that a five string violin stayed in the treble cleff?
Please clarify this for me....
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by bowburner
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Nothing wrong with playing a 5-string fiddle per se. The problem lies in overcoming the technical difficulties in making them - which must be why they haven't been made by the great makers and become part of the mainstream violin family over the last few hundred years. If the great luthiers of the 17th century onward had thought 5-strings were feasible we can be sure that they would be common today and the history of music for the instrument would have been markedly different.
tlittlewazzock and other luthiers on this site will have far more to say on the subject than I could usefully contribute, but it seems to me that the addition of a 5th string starts to come close to the mechanical limits of the instrument, and this in turn adversely affects the tonal qualities. An electronic 5-stringer, as used by some folk and pop groups, is usually more successful because there is no acoustic cavity and the sound is controlled by the electronics.
Bach wrote a suite for a 5-string cello (with an E-string above the A), and Schubert also wrote a cello sonata (the "Arpeggione") for a 5-string cello. Both works are commonly played today on the standard cello without any technical problems, except that the 5-part chords in the Sarabande of the Bach suite have to be modified for the standard 4-string cello. As far as I know, no examples of a 5-string cello from Bach's time now exist, but a handful of modern 5-string cellos have been made to order.
I stand to be corrected on this, but it seems to me that it is more sensible to make a 5-string viola (with an E-string) than a 5-string fiddle (with a C-string), because the viola is inherently stronger, its designed for a C-string, its tone colour differs from that of the fiddle, and could perhaps carry the E-string more successfully.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Ha ha, that's priceless. The difference between a violin and a viola is that there is a different convention in how music is written for them.
Come on now, it's nothing to do with the flexibility of having a wider range. It's the sound. Listen to a violin's bottom three strings. Then listen to a viola's top three strings. They are quite simply different instruments.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I agree, they are two different instruments. I also play violin and viola. I've considered a 5 string electric, but I really didn't like it. I like the viola. And I like the violin. I don't think a 5 string offers the best of both, in fact, in my opinion, it's kind of the opposite. There are folks that play 7-string fiddles, but it really is a different style of music, a different way of playing, and the instrument itself is different. Yes, there are similarities, but that's about it, similarities.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by wyogal
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Here is a link to some photos http://www.myspace.com/dudleyviolins go to the "pics" obviously.
My 5 string design is not intended to be a combo violin/viola. It is specifically designed to be a 5 string violin that provides the player an extended tonal range. The classical world will not accept this any time soon but it is well received in all the other major genres'
There are many well known makers who have waiting list that are making 5 string violins or 5 string violas. The problem with always looking backwards and saying if "Stradivari" did not make it it can't be a worthwhile endeavor is IMHO the wrong way to look at music. The musical demands are much different that in the Baroque. If that logic was correct then the neck projections and longer fingerboards to accommodate modern classical music and larger concert halls would never have come about.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Stradibarrius
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I should have also posted some music being made with a 5 string by a Grammy nominated musician.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1wmisbm07d0
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Stradibarrius
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Well then, thank goodness, after all these wasted centuries that we now have you around who knows better, Stradibarrius.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I made a 5 string, the sound was not great, the wider neck was not easy to handle and lesser string angles not good either. I did not play it so I put a huge bass bar in and turned it into an octave 4 string which works a lot better. I'll bring it along sometime if you are about for a tune Ben.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by tlittlewazzock
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Such an instrument is never going to work at all successfully acoustically. However, if it's primary function is for it to be amplified, then that's another matter. And seeings as 99.9% of music performed is amplified, good luck to you.
The ubiquitous prevalance of amplification these days opens up a whole new set of options for instrument makers to invent new things. Or should I say, "removes the requirement of an acoustic instrument to behave like one".
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
You've showed it me before Gavin. As you know, though, I'm a miserable stick in the mud. No adventure in my soul. For no good reason I will persist in liking the fiddle.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Conversely ... why not invent a 3 string violin? If you play with flute and pipes a lot, you don't "need" your G string. Design an instrument that doesn't have to cope with the extra resonance of it and so can bring out more of the upper register.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Just gimme a pair of scissors ...
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: New 5 string violin I made
http://orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/violine/vl-quintonTk.htm
not new then....
Infallible wiki?!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
We need to let folks like Mark O'Conner, Casey Driessen, Darol Anger , Tania Elizabeth and Brittney Haas know that the acoustic five strings they are playing are not going to work. I guess that they need to give back the money they have made playing to big crowds and CD sales too.
Also the makers like Jon Cooper and John Silakowski who have waiting list of people wanting their 5 string instruments, that it is not going to work for them either!
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by Stradibarrius
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Where have you heard Mark O'Conner, Casey Driessen, Darol Anger , Tania Elizabeth and Brittney Haa play their five string fiddles acoustically?
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I'm serious about the three string fiddle though. You could make it much narrower and flatter (same length obviously) and lighter. Think how portable it would be. Great for travelling, and you could still play ALL the tunes it.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Well, you could hardly play ALL the tunes on a 3 string fiddle!. Besides the 3 string was the first fiddle, came befor the 4 stringer. .And do you think this fiddle;http://orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/violine/vl-quintonTk.htmdidnt work?!
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
thats this fiddle;http://orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/violine/vl-quintonTk.htm
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
http://orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/violine/vl-quintonTk.htm
Unfortunately, the photos and text in that link give no indication of a most important parameter if that fiddle uses a C-string - namely the depth of ribs which helps define the resonance volume. I've seen (and briefly played on) a very nice 14" viola (violin-size) which sounds as a viola should because it has the depth of ribbing a viola needs.
That old 5-stringer dating from 1700, and still in its original setup, would also be using gut strings and probably tuned to A-415 or thereabouts. A very different sound to what is required today.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I suspect that a modern hand-made 3-string fiddle wouldn't sound quite the same as a 4-string. Without the G and with different overall tension the resonances would be different. I would think that it's not just a case of taking a string away; bridge, soundpost and base-bar would have to be redesigned to give the right sort of sound, not to mention the neck, fingerboard and pegbox if you're doing the job properly.
Having said that, there aren't all that many tunes in ITM that would be completely unplayable on a 3-stringer ("Grumbling Old Man And Cackling Old Woman" and its ilk come to mind); flutes often manage to get round the absence of notes below D.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Agreed, its the depth that is the essential characteristic. Which is why a 5 string fiddle might not be able to support the C string, A 5 string viola, I think, is more suitable. The E string perhaps might suffer but I have a couple of 5stringers and have not noticed.
Sure, there are not so many tunes that use all 4 strings but some of my favs do, like Dr Gilbert,
I think the advances of string technology have 'raised' the bar so to speak, what might not have worked 100 yrs ago may well today
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
It does say that the tuning was probably: a-e-a-e-a or g-d-g-d-g.
for the5stringer in the photo. Amati's first 2 fiddles were supposedly 3 stringers.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Just because famous players are playing 5 string "fiddles," It doesn't mean that they are using them at sessions, or for everything they do. When I played with Mark O'Connor, he was using a regular fiddle (I use the term "regular" loosely, referring to a 4-string). When I did workshops with Anger, he was using a 4-string. Then there's Mark Woods and his 7-string fretted, strap-on (yes!) electric. Which I don't want to play, but enjoyed listening to him shred with it.
I think that when one brings this discussion up on a forum such as this, one ought to understand that the responses will be varied and not at all in line with what the original poster may think.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by wyogal
Re: New 5 string violin I made
If you look in the youtube video of Casey Driessen linked above you will see him playing into a mic.
I have seen Darol, Tania and David Blackmon all ply into mics at festivals and clubs.
By the way the 5 string Casey is playing is a John Silakowski.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by Stradibarrius
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Of course, Trev, everything on a three stringed fiddle would have to re-designed and it would not sound like the top three strings on a regular fiddle. That's the whole point of the conversation. The bottom four strings on a five string viola are not going to sound like a regular viola and the top four strings on a five string fiddle are not going to sound like a fiddle. This can either matter to you or not, it's no problem, but don't kid yourself that what you are getting is a regular fiddle or viola, but with a greater range. I love my fiddle and my viola and the idea that I could amalgamate the two into one instrument just doesn't appeal. What I'd lose from both would not be worth it.
I've been listening to Maxim Vengarov with Lawrence Power playing the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante for Violin and Viola. It's the exploration of the differences between the instruments that make it. It's brilliant
But this is very different music to the stuff I play. This music is simple and 99% of it falls within the range of the open D string on the fiddle to the B on the E string. The music is simple, so why not make the instrument simpler? Design an instrument with the music in mind. I imagine a really bright sounding instrument with a higher tension than a regular fiddle which would help your snappy rolls etc. You could make the body thinner and not as deep, but longer, as there is no need to move your left hand out of first position. And for ease of portability, the bow could be the same length as the instrument - you don't need a full length bow for diddley music. And what effect would putting the sound post under the D string have? I bet you'd get a really strong open D, especially with the extra tension.
Come on instrument makers, think about it. I bet there's a market for a dedicated diddley fiddle. We know that as far as the sound goes, you have to compromise when you add a string. So what could you gain if you lost one?
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Have you actually played on a well made 5 stringer? or even a cheapie? I wonder if you are talking theory or practice....
Are you a luthier? do you know some theory, perhaps you could explain why a 5 stringer is a compromise.
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Well, I think that those who play 5-string fiddles often play certain styles suited to a such, and best of luck to them. And stradibarrius: Those are really beautiful instruments! I'm glad that you've found a market for those, I bet those paying for and playing them are very pleased. Just like I'm pleased with a 4 string - my style is based around 4 string fiddle (not that I play much fiddle).
I don't think there's much of a marked for 3-string fiddles in Irish music - but I'd like to hear if any of you every goes down that road - must be a different sound/tone, and thus interesting for the rest of us to hear!
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by Larshansen
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Well I played a 4string for 15yrs before moving up in size to a viola, with 5strings. love the extra size, though its a bit heavier.... I find many possibilities have opened up, tunes in different keys. but the C string , for me , simply expands the range... , great for chords and stuff...
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Check Darol's5 string forum out
http://5stringviolins.com/forum/ Darol, Casey, Tania and David all play 5 strings as their #1 instrument now.
"I think that when one brings this discussion up on a forum such as this, one ought to understand that the responses will be varied and not at all in line with what the original poster may think." What kind of forum is "this one"??
I think if you read the original thread, I ask a question and made no statement of fact. I also stated that the 5 string is not for everyone. You are the one who turned this into a negative thread with the attitude that it can't work, sound good or be played by real men!
For those of you who are open to something new, not a replacement for the existing, I hop[e you try a 5 string someday.
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by Stradibarrius
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I never said a five string wouldn't/couldn't sound good. I just said they could not work/sound like a regular violin or viola. The whole point is that they are different instruments, and I applaud that - especially as the need for them to work acoustically is removed. I'm not being negative, choice is great.
What jig says about the possibilities being opened up, tunes in different keys, the C string expanding the range is fine - if that's what you are looking for in your music.
Jig also mentions his five string viola is "a bit heavier". Yeah, it would be. I often play tunes, regular full on session speed sets (all of the tune, rolls, bowing etc but an octave down, and with the much heavier viola bow) on my viola and it's great fun. But feckin hell, I'm feckin knackered after after it. And when I get back to the fiddle it's like playing a toy.
Stradibarrius, I have played five string fiddle things and I've acually found them to constric rarther than to expand my musical range (or maytbe I've just never played a good one).
(And no one has mentioned the bow yet? My fiddle bow and my viola bow are as important to the differences between the instruments as the instruments themselves.)
But back to the three stringed fiddle. What do you reckon? What could you make one sound like? Any instrument design is a compromise between the higher frequencies and the lower ones. Do you not think that designing an instrument that focuses on a less, rarther than an a more axpanded range, would be interesting?
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Interesting link you posted on the other thread Llig, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR1l169_mVA
Note, Athena is playing a 5 string fiddle.....
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Yeah, and the five string doesn't sound like a viola or a fiddle, and 'cause they are all miked individually, you have no idea what the real balance of the instrument;s might really be.
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
Sounds good to me anyway
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: New 5 string violin I made
For me experimentation is always interesting. Some ideas work and other don't.
The three string idea is one I have never thought about. I am not sure I understand the reason for going to a 3 string. Don't mis-understand I am not saying it is a bad idea, I'm saying I would be interested in hearing thoughts as to why a 3 string might be a good idea.
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by Stradibarrius
Re: New 5 string violin I made
A four string violin/viola's design and construction is a compromise to get the low notes and the high ones working in harmony. A five string is even more of a compromise. Could not a three string instrument be more focused? Especially if you didn't have to make the body short enough to get your left hand into anything above 1st position.
I just think that you could make a really loud, bright, small instrument if you loose the G string. It would/could be perfectly suited to traditional Irish music.
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
I what way is a standard 4 string a compromise? Which instrument was compromised to make the 4 string? I'm sorry if I am missing something here.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Stradibarrius
Re: New 5 string violin I made
The design of all instruments that play more than one note is a compromise to get them all sounding OK. You must be aware of some fiddles where the top end is great but the bottom ent too week? etc
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: New 5 string violin I made
The fiddle in question is currently in Shetland, being played by a superb Danish fiddler called Henrik Jansberg. Not only have I played it myself and loved it instantly, but this thread came up in conversation at Monday night's session when we were taking the mickey out of Irish sessions that don't allow non-Irish tunes and the people who practically live on ITM discussion forums. He mentioned the thread and how the poor luthier was sandbagged before the conversation moved onto three-stringed fiddles, and I remembered reading it ... we had a great laugh about the whole thing. Just thought I'd look up the thread, re-read it, have another great laugh and share that little anecdote with you all.
Cheers, S
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Swift