This may have been covered elsewhere, if so just point me in the right direction.
I recently learned a very nice harmony for Banish Misfortune. Of course, if everybody in a session played harmony, then where would the melody be? I'm wondering how harmonies are received in most sessions.
curious, is the harmony that you play with irish tunes above or below the melody? In twin fiddle, it is above, with the really good players actually sandwiching the melody with double stops above and below at the same time, ala Bob Wills.
I tend to avoid harmonizing in favor of coming up with better variations. Otherwise you might be sounding perilously close to "noodling", or which is a major no-no.
I've heard that harmony notes are often selected to avoid the third in order to stay away from committing to either a major or minor mode. Any thoughts on this?
We have a flute player who comes up with the loveliest harmonies, but she tends to play them just for slow airs. Typically, she'll play the melody once or twice, and then on the next round she'll come in with the harmony. It works really well, particularly on flute, which is otherwise liable to get drowned in our very fiddle-heavy session.
I do quite a lot of little bits of harmony. But I've got to stress the *little bits*. It shouldn't last more than about a second or two. Long stretches of harmony or, heaven forbid, a completely separate 'harmony line', are just not idiomatic and spoil the tune, for my money.
(Clearly, I'm not referring to guitars and guitar chords here, although I have to say, recent experience has me hating them even more.)
...oops, nearly gave the game away there. What I clearly meant was '*beginning* to hate them when I've always previously been totally supportive of the important role they play'.
One kind of sustained harmony line that I sometimes like, as opposed to harmony from pipe drones, chordal harmony from backers, double stops or the short variations in note choice that benhall.1 describes, is a simple baseline at least an octave down. Like on a bass or cello or the bass strings of a guitar.
But I’m mostly in the “don’t care for harmony” camp. It muddies the melody.
Rereading my own post, I see that my sloppy writing makes it sound as if I have a problem with “harmony from pipe drones, chordal harmony from backers, double stops or the short variations in note choice”. It’s the sustained harmony lines played closer to the melody that I can do with out. Um, unless it’s done really really well, then of course it’s lovely. ☺
Just wondering why you are "beginning to hate" guitars. Are they playing harmonizing melody lines, or trying to use harmonizing chords?
I learn the melodies because it gives me a sense of the rhythem and strumming patterns to back the tune. Sometimes I start the song with the melody along with the other melody instruments, then switch to chords the second time through the song. It seems to give the tune some depth.
Sorry, Celtic, I was guilty of one of those 'No-nos' - the so-called 'in joke'.
I have been accused several times on this board - wrongly, I may add, of 'hating guitars'.
"recent experience has me hating them even more" was a reference to specfic events that would be enough to turn anybody off guitars - and the post that followed was me being wry, witty and amusing - NOT - and claiming, slightly sarcastically, that, in fact I don't hate them at all, but am really very supportive.
When I add harmony to a tune, I like to place it below the melody. Too much parallel harmony at the third above just kills a tune. It can almost nullify the melody.
Meanwhile, I could give you a very long list of the main crimes perpetrated by guitar so-called players, but just a few for starters:
1 Can't tune the bloody instrument. This is incredibly common, and persists even *after* you've pointed out the problem.
2 Can't hear what key something is in. I DETEST having to shout out chords when I'm trying to enjoy a tune. (And PLEASE don't anybody post that ever-so-funny link to the chord hat again - it's old hat.)
3 Complete ignorance of the music, yet apparently having the right to bash away at full volume. Here's an example: we were playing some tune in Dmix, and I had yelled out 'D' because the feckin guitar plod had played the entire first part of the tune in Emin (oh, but with an out of tune guitar, so I suppose that makes it OK ). He finally got to play D chords, oh and Amaj (!) and G (he was quite advanced). I had tried once or twice during the tune to yell out 'C' when it got to the appropriate point, so as to steer him away from the dreaded Amaj. At one point he then decided that he must have got the key wrong again, and changed the entire key for the chords he was playing to Cmaj. COMPLETE WITH FMAJ CHORDS!!! Afterwards, he remonstrated with me because I had apparently told him the 'wrong key' when I had yelled out 'D'. I said that well, it was in Dmix and he looked blank and went on to bash the first tune of the next set IN THE WRONG KEY.
4 Can't play in time. I'm sorry, but this is so common as to be almost universal amongst guitarists. It's pitiful.
Right. Rant over. Sorry for the hijack. Back to thread chaps.
That's too bad about your experience with guitar "so-called" players. Our guitar players are quite good, trade off playing guitar and mandolin, and have a great sense of rhythm. The guitar is used as support, backing. They are also likely to be the players that tune their instruments more finely than anyone else. They are also probably the most humble members of our small group, saying very little and playing great music on some great instruments.
Simply playing the tune a third above is playing in unison, not playing in harmony.
True harmony playing is an absolute delight and greatly enhances the tune. Provided it's done right, of course. I was fortunate enough to have a highly talented whistler sit next to me at the last festival I was at and proceed to play a beautiful harmony to the tune I was banging out. Mind you, she turned up on stage later in the day...and she was half my age
The unfortunate thing about the guitar is that it's relatively easy to get started on, and then not progress far on. So if you are unlucky you may get someone who is similar to a tune player who knows a couple of dozen tunes but proceeds to play through everything.
We are forunate in that we have a very talented mandola player as the main and often the only backer. The two guitarists who sometime come, though rarely at the same time, are also very good so local budding bedroom guitarists know what minimum standard is the norm.
Regards to harmony I would say that those who can know they can and those who aren't sure shouldn't.
'playing the tune a third above is playing in unison, not playing in harmony'. Being the devil's advocate, I have to disagree. Technically in terms of intervals, a third above (or below) is not unison and can outline or define the harmonic structure more clearly against the tune itself. But I agree that hamonies that go past the basic mirroring of the melody a third above/below is much more creative and beautiful. I understand what you're trying to say though bc.
I have good opinions of the guitar, I think because some of my earlier ITM experiences involved listening to Liz Carroll and John Doyle play together (concert and CD). I'm not sure how I feel about harmonic lines from melody instruments though. It seems to work better for airs, waltzes, etc. I like the cello bass line thing for Scottish tunes, but the idea of parallel thirds the whole time doesn't sound that appealing. I am open to being proved wrong, however.
I think a little harmony goes a loooooooooooooooong way.
Let's not forget this is a melody-based tradition, where for many years a single musician playing was the norm, and that the session we now so love and rejoice in is a very modern thing, arguably post-WWII for Britain (I'm sure someone can come up with chapter and verse for previous discussions on this ).
I suggest that most harmonies are found being demonstrated in bands playing arrangements in concerts, and that anyone less competent should simply leave them alone.
Hand me down my bouzouki, I need to practice that chord progression.........
In days gone by, when most pubs had a piano, and homes had a piano when today they have instead wall-to-wall television, the piano would have accompanied a lot of melody playing, supplying a supportive bass line and harmony, as the better guitarists do today. This is like the centuries-old musical tradition of the "basso continuo" part (typically cello and harpsichord) found in a lot of Baroque music.
Oh dear... benhal.1 is having another guitar rant. I must admit, I'm probably one of the quickest to start putting down guitars, and I play one of the bloody things. Mostly though, it's not the instrument that's at fault when people start to say they hate a particular instrument - it's the lack of taste, sensitivity and musicality in the person playing the offending instrument. Generally, I prefer not to hear piano accordions, or bodhrans in sessions - but played well, they can be great. Similarly, a favourite instrument may be a curse in a session if in the wrong hands...
Regarding harmony, personally I prefer not to hear it, unless done very sparingly, by someone who knows what they're doing. I much prefer to hear someone playing an octave down every now and again.
Yes, sorry to have ranted, Ron. As I've said plenty of times before, I actually like guitars - used to play one once - but I'm just so often appalled by the standard out there, that's all.
You're right, it's the people, not the players. Guitar can be a beautiful instrument, as exemplified on another thread just yesterday:
Aye benhal.1, that's Tony McManus. It's not the best illustration of just how subtle and tasteful he can be - have you heard the album called "Kintail", which he and Alasdair Fraser recorded?
Re bad guitar playing - yes, the general standard is very, very poor (but I wouldn't consider myself to be "good", just perhaps more tasteful than many might be). On several occasions over the years, I've seen me walk into a bar where there was what could, and should have been a good session, only to immediately turn and walk out straight away. There was one session I visited on occasions a few months back, where it was fine for me to take out my fiddle and join in the odd set I knew, but there was a very loud guitarist, beside whom I often ended up sitting - purely because of the time I always landed in there; bottom line was I couldn't cope with the racket being made, and have never been back since.
I must admit, because of my location, I don't play much at all in sessions these days - just the odd tune and occasional gig with a (very) good locally based fiddle player. Over the past few years, I'd say I've played a lot more music in Ireland when on holiday, than in Scotland for the rest of the year. Most of my music these days is listening to CDs / Radio nan Gaidheal when driving. But, that's not necessarily a bad thing - quite a lot goes in and sticks, although it may not be initially apparent...
Maybe this belongs down the hall in that discussion about the future of ITM, but I wonder if that future might bring more harmony playing by melody instruments. I’m thinking about the trajectory of the past few decades, where we’ve seen plenty of exploration of harmony in the rhythm section, brief bits of harmony by melody instruments and a general tendency to make creative arrangements. [I’m talking here about bands, of course, but we all know how that feeds into sessions.] Fiddles and flutes playing harmony parts seems like a natural progression.
No value judgement intended, just a tentative prediction. I know we’ve had plenty of opposition to the practice on the mustard board, but the folks who speak out in this forum do not constitute a representative sample of … anything.
Playing harmony is well established and has been for some years now where I play. Though I don't make a distinction between what is described as the strummers' harmony and the melody players' harmony. The tunes themselves are harmonic and rhythmic constructions and whether the music follows a single line or a more dense structure of simultaneous layers is merely a didactic distinction.
The divisive nature of the melody players verses the backers is unhelpful. Once you start to recognise the tunes as harmonic structures in their own right, rather than merely lines of unrelated notes, then this division can be melted away. (And, of course, once you start to recognise the tunes as rhythmic structures in their own right, you can do away with your superfluous drummers.)
One of the reasons I love the viola so much in a session is it is designed to bridge the gap between melody and accompaniment.
Harmony in sessions
Harmony in sessions
This may have been covered elsewhere, if so just point me in the right direction.
I recently learned a very nice harmony for Banish Misfortune. Of course, if everybody in a session played harmony, then where would the melody be? I'm wondering how harmonies are received in most sessions.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by dfost
Re: Harmony in sessions
I try not to overdo it, I sometimes play a harmony to another banjo (since 2 tenor banjo's in 1 session could get overcrowded really soon).
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Dark Raven
Re: Harmony in sessions
curious, is the harmony that you play with irish tunes above or below the melody? In twin fiddle, it is above, with the really good players actually sandwiching the melody with double stops above and below at the same time, ala Bob Wills.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Harmony in sessions
Irish (lower case "i" was unintentional!)
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Harmony in sessions
I usually player the higher third to the melody.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Dark Raven
Re: Harmony in sessions
I tend to avoid harmonizing in favor of coming up with better variations. Otherwise you might be sounding perilously close to "noodling", or which is a major no-no.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Harmony in sessions
Response to wyogal. This particular harmony is lower than the melody - it's really quite subtle and nice. Here's a link:
http://www.dannycarnahan.com/writing/sheet-music/banish_harmony.html
I've heard that harmony notes are often selected to avoid the third in order to stay away from committing to either a major or minor mode. Any thoughts on this?
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by dfost
Re: Harmony in sessions
We have a flute player who comes up with the loveliest harmonies, but she tends to play them just for slow airs. Typically, she'll play the melody once or twice, and then on the next round she'll come in with the harmony. It works really well, particularly on flute, which is otherwise liable to get drowned in our very fiddle-heavy session.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Harmony in sessions
Thanks! I'll have to try it!
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Harmony in sessions
I do quite a lot of little bits of harmony. But I've got to stress the *little bits*. It shouldn't last more than about a second or two. Long stretches of harmony or, heaven forbid, a completely separate 'harmony line', are just not idiomatic and spoil the tune, for my money.
(Clearly, I'm not referring to guitars and guitar chords here, although I have to say, recent experience has me hating them even more.)
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
...oops, nearly gave the game away there. What I clearly meant was '*beginning* to hate them when I've always previously been totally supportive of the important role they play'.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
Important to whom, exactly?
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by pfft
Re: Harmony in sessions
One kind of sustained harmony line that I sometimes like, as opposed to harmony from pipe drones, chordal harmony from backers, double stops or the short variations in note choice that benhall.1 describes, is a simple baseline at least an octave down. Like on a bass or cello or the bass strings of a guitar.
But I’m mostly in the “don’t care for harmony” camp. It muddies the melody.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by fidkid
Re: Harmony in sessions
Rereading my own post, I see that my sloppy writing makes it sound as if I have a problem with “harmony from pipe drones, chordal harmony from backers, double stops or the short variations in note choice”. It’s the sustained harmony lines played closer to the melody that I can do with out. Um, unless it’s done really really well, then of course it’s lovely. ☺
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by fidkid
Re: Harmony in sessions
Yes, I'm with you - your revised position, that is, fidkid. Oh, and except that last sentence.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
Hello, Ben.
Just wondering why you are "beginning to hate" guitars. Are they playing harmonizing melody lines, or trying to use harmonizing chords?
I learn the melodies because it gives me a sense of the rhythem and strumming patterns to back the tune. Sometimes I start the song with the melody along with the other melody instruments, then switch to chords the second time through the song. It seems to give the tune some depth.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Harmony in sessions
Sorry, Celtic, I was guilty of one of those 'No-nos' - the so-called 'in joke'.
I have been accused several times on this board - wrongly, I may add, of 'hating guitars'.
"recent experience has me hating them even more" was a reference to specfic events that would be enough to turn anybody off guitars - and the post that followed was me being wry, witty and amusing - NOT - and claiming, slightly sarcastically, that, in fact I don't hate them at all, but am really very supportive.
Wasn't much of a joke really was it?
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
When I add harmony to a tune, I like to place it below the melody. Too much parallel harmony at the third above just kills a tune. It can almost nullify the melody.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Harmony in sessions
Meanwhile, I could give you a very long list of the main crimes perpetrated by guitar so-called players, but just a few for starters:
). He finally got to play D chords, oh and Amaj (!) and G (he was quite advanced). I had tried once or twice during the tune to yell out 'C' when it got to the appropriate point, so as to steer him away from the dreaded Amaj. At one point he then decided that he must have got the key wrong again, and changed the entire key for the chords he was playing to Cmaj. COMPLETE WITH FMAJ CHORDS!!! Afterwards, he remonstrated with me because I had apparently told him the 'wrong key' when I had yelled out 'D'. I said that well, it was in Dmix and he looked blank and went on to bash the first tune of the next set IN THE WRONG KEY.
1 Can't tune the bloody instrument. This is incredibly common, and persists even *after* you've pointed out the problem.
2 Can't hear what key something is in. I DETEST having to shout out chords when I'm trying to enjoy a tune. (And PLEASE don't anybody post that ever-so-funny link to the chord hat again - it's old hat.)
3 Complete ignorance of the music, yet apparently having the right to bash away at full volume. Here's an example: we were playing some tune in Dmix, and I had yelled out 'D' because the feckin guitar plod had played the entire first part of the tune in Emin (oh, but with an out of tune guitar, so I suppose that makes it OK
4 Can't play in time. I'm sorry, but this is so common as to be almost universal amongst guitarists. It's pitiful.
Right. Rant over. Sorry for the hijack. Back to thread chaps.
Ah, that sweet harmony ...
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
you should have asked him to stop playing
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by ...
Re: Harmony in sessions
That's too bad about your experience with guitar "so-called" players. Our guitar players are quite good, trade off playing guitar and mandolin, and have a great sense of rhythm. The guitar is used as support, backing. They are also likely to be the players that tune their instruments more finely than anyone else. They are also probably the most humble members of our small group, saying very little and playing great music on some great instruments.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Harmony in sessions
Simply playing the tune a third above is playing in unison, not playing in harmony.
True harmony playing is an absolute delight and greatly enhances the tune. Provided it's done right, of course. I was fortunate enough to have a highly talented whistler sit next to me at the last festival I was at and proceed to play a beautiful harmony to the tune I was banging out. Mind you, she turned up on stage later in the day...and she was half my age
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: Harmony in sessions
The unfortunate thing about the guitar is that it's relatively easy to get started on, and then not progress far on. So if you are unlucky you may get someone who is similar to a tune player who knows a couple of dozen tunes but proceeds to play through everything.
We are forunate in that we have a very talented mandola player as the main and often the only backer. The two guitarists who sometime come, though rarely at the same time, are also very good so local budding bedroom guitarists know what minimum standard is the norm.
Regards to harmony I would say that those who can know they can and those who aren't sure shouldn't.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by bogman
Re: Harmony in sessions
'playing the tune a third above is playing in unison, not playing in harmony'. Being the devil's advocate, I have to disagree. Technically in terms of intervals, a third above (or below) is not unison and can outline or define the harmonic structure more clearly against the tune itself. But I agree that hamonies that go past the basic mirroring of the melody a third above/below is much more creative and beautiful. I understand what you're trying to say though bc.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by b2jay
Re: Harmony in sessions
"Regards to harmony I would say that those who can know they can and those who aren't sure shouldn't"
That is SO-O-O-O-O spot on, bogman. Beautifully put.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
... ooh ... except for those people who *think* they know they can when, in fact, they can't ...
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
I have good opinions of the guitar, I think because some of my earlier ITM experiences involved listening to Liz Carroll and John Doyle play together (concert and CD). I'm not sure how I feel about harmonic lines from melody instruments though. It seems to work better for airs, waltzes, etc. I like the cello bass line thing for Scottish tunes, but the idea of parallel thirds the whole time doesn't sound that appealing. I am open to being proved wrong, however.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by jasonb
Re: Harmony in sessions
I think a little harmony goes a loooooooooooooooong way.
Let's not forget this is a melody-based tradition, where for many years a single musician playing was the norm, and that the session we now so love and rejoice in is a very modern thing, arguably post-WWII for Britain (I'm sure someone can come up with chapter and verse for previous discussions on this ).
I suggest that most harmonies are found being demonstrated in bands playing arrangements in concerts, and that anyone less competent should simply leave them alone.
Hand me down my bouzouki, I need to practice that chord progression.........
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Harmony in sessions
I thought trying to play harmony on fiddle or whatever was a session no-no...
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by jasonb
Re: Harmony in sessions
In days gone by, when most pubs had a piano, and homes had a piano when today they have instead wall-to-wall television, the piano would have accompanied a lot of melody playing, supplying a supportive bass line and harmony, as the better guitarists do today. This is like the centuries-old musical tradition of the "basso continuo" part (typically cello and harpsichord) found in a lot of Baroque music.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Harmony in sessions
Oh dear... benhal.1 is having another guitar rant. I must admit, I'm probably one of the quickest to start putting down guitars, and I play one of the bloody things. Mostly though, it's not the instrument that's at fault when people start to say they hate a particular instrument - it's the lack of taste, sensitivity and musicality in the person playing the offending instrument. Generally, I prefer not to hear piano accordions, or bodhrans in sessions - but played well, they can be great. Similarly, a favourite instrument may be a curse in a session if in the wrong hands...
Regarding harmony, personally I prefer not to hear it, unless done very sparingly, by someone who knows what they're doing. I much prefer to hear someone playing an octave down every now and again.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Harmony in sessions
Yes, sorry to have ranted, Ron. As I've said plenty of times before, I actually like guitars - used to play one once - but I'm just so often appalled by the standard out there, that's all.
You're right, it's the people, not the players. Guitar can be a beautiful instrument, as exemplified on another thread just yesterday:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Dr-dxaoz3g
[I don't care *how* many times that vid is linked to - it's one of the most beautiful things I've heard on the net, or elsewhere for that matter]
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
Aye benhal.1, that's Tony McManus. It's not the best illustration of just how subtle and tasteful he can be - have you heard the album called "Kintail", which he and Alasdair Fraser recorded?
Re bad guitar playing - yes, the general standard is very, very poor (but I wouldn't consider myself to be "good", just perhaps more tasteful than many might be). On several occasions over the years, I've seen me walk into a bar where there was what could, and should have been a good session, only to immediately turn and walk out straight away. There was one session I visited on occasions a few months back, where it was fine for me to take out my fiddle and join in the odd set I knew, but there was a very loud guitarist, beside whom I often ended up sitting - purely because of the time I always landed in there; bottom line was I couldn't cope with the racket being made, and have never been back since.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Harmony in sessions
I've met Tony - not that he'd remember me - but what a lovely bloke. The man's a total genius and I know *just* how subtle he can be.
)
I haven't heard that album, Ron, but I'll look it out. (Trouble is, I'm not good at listening to CDs etc - I just like playing.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Harmony in sessions
Good man yourself.
I must admit, because of my location, I don't play much at all in sessions these days - just the odd tune and occasional gig with a (very) good locally based fiddle player. Over the past few years, I'd say I've played a lot more music in Ireland when on holiday, than in Scotland for the rest of the year. Most of my music these days is listening to CDs / Radio nan Gaidheal when driving. But, that's not necessarily a bad thing - quite a lot goes in and sticks, although it may not be initially apparent...
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Harmony in sessions
Maybe this belongs down the hall in that discussion about the future of ITM, but I wonder if that future might bring more harmony playing by melody instruments. I’m thinking about the trajectory of the past few decades, where we’ve seen plenty of exploration of harmony in the rhythm section, brief bits of harmony by melody instruments and a general tendency to make creative arrangements. [I’m talking here about bands, of course, but we all know how that feeds into sessions.] Fiddles and flutes playing harmony parts seems like a natural progression.
No value judgement intended, just a tentative prediction. I know we’ve had plenty of opposition to the practice on the mustard board, but the folks who speak out in this forum do not constitute a representative sample of … anything.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Harmony in sessions
Playing harmony is well established and has been for some years now where I play. Though I don't make a distinction between what is described as the strummers' harmony and the melody players' harmony. The tunes themselves are harmonic and rhythmic constructions and whether the music follows a single line or a more dense structure of simultaneous layers is merely a didactic distinction.
The divisive nature of the melody players verses the backers is unhelpful. Once you start to recognise the tunes as harmonic structures in their own right, rather than merely lines of unrelated notes, then this division can be melted away. (And, of course, once you start to recognise the tunes as rhythmic structures in their own right, you can do away with your superfluous drummers.)
One of the reasons I love the viola so much in a session is it is designed to bridge the gap between melody and accompaniment.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by ...