Hello, I am a piper who has been asked to play with a renowned U.S. folk fiddler for a dance class.
My question involves the playing of reels for dancers. I play a lot of single (2x8 bars) and I know most reels in country Dancing are Double Reels (2x16), as well as a few odd balls that are 3x16.
Sorry, I just realized my notation was a little confusing.
I meant that my single reels are 8 bars to a part, usually with two parts, and that double reels are 16 bars to a part, usually with two parts (though I have some with three.)
Well all you have to do is play them twice as many times as you would play a 32 bar reel. So, if there is 192 bars in a dance set, you need to play 3 different single reels (16 bar), 4 times each. Or, you could play 3 different double reels (32 bar), 2 times each. I'm not an expert on this, but, as far as I know, it's really up to you how you arrange the tunes. Just make sure you start and stop at the right time and the tempo is ok.
I've never played a single reel for a dance, so I'm thinking you should stick with the double reels. You can look at the index of tunes in the Portland Collection and get an idea of some good tunes for dances:
Single reels work fine, in fact, they can be a blast, but it is usually best to start with doubles, 32 bars, and then lead into 16 bar tunes. Sometimes a caller / prompter will have some musical knowledge too and may even know dances where those definted 8 bar changes work beautifully. The thing is being able to hold them together in pairs, so 2 x 16 = 32, for dances that fit that structure. Some dances, Irish too, fit 3-part and larger tune sizes. The composed but official dance "The Rakes of Mallow", is perfect for single reels, and ideal are the 5-part single reels. We had worked up a set of such just for that dance... We've also fitted in, later on, multi-part tunes divisable by 32, one way or another, more direct 4-part tunes, but even using 3-part x 2, and larger. After they are comfortable with the basics and that is supported, in the case of 32 bar dances, then you can have some fun, and if you are, with respect for the dancers, the chances are they will too.
As you're in North America, you might want to also chat with the fiddler, and bring any dance teacher/caller/prompter into it, to find out what kind of introduction they prefer. In the 'old days', and still here with most things, an 'A-for-not' was and is the norm, meaning once through 8 bars, or for a 32 bar tune start ~ AAABBAABB-etc... But, some prefer 4 potatoes. You'll also need to find out about tempo, and dancers on the whole respect a steady and supportive rhythm to the usual mayhem of a session, where it fluctuates...
There are several collections, as mentioned already "The Portland Collection" ~ I & II, and Randy Miller's "New England Fiddler", but that's assuming you're meaning something like that, like contras and squares (quadrilles), big circle, sicilians, etc...? You do mention 'country dance', but that covers a wide selection of possibilities... Tell us more...
Ben, is this 'Scottish' in the RSCDS (Royal Scottish Country Dancing) way? I take it you have the ears already, and a fine fiddler too, your first place to go for tunes and agreement of sets to play. Even the Kerr (Scottish) collections are predominantly 2-part 32 bar tunes... If you go that route it won't be just 'reels', it will be jigs and strathspeys too, at the least. I'd ask your fiddler friend for some choice recordings, as I suspect they will have a great store if you don't yourself. That would also give you the ear training to know what kind of sound is expected. There are some fun ceilidh band recordings, and there are RSCDS country dance recordings too.
Playing for dance, how lucky is that. Be sure to be comfortable enough with your selections that you will not only be able to hear each other but to see the dance unfold to your music. If it comes together, whatever the type, it is a great high, one of the best...
Whichever, Scottish or English or both, as to 'country dance', it is usually more relaxed, so with your experience it shouldn't be a problem. Both appreciate, as with any dance or dancer, a pronounced and strong rhythm. I'd love to hear how it turns out.
Great Highland Bagpipes, Ben, I love dancing to pipes, but generally it isn't a good thing with Scottish, in my experience. The best I ever heard for dance came out of the Maritimes of Canada, Cape Breton. It was 'dance music', very different from the usual, and you could not keep your feet still it was that alive and happy... You luck out again, with an already established dance fiddler, emulate them, try to think past your bagpipe indoctrination and listen to and follow the lead of the fiddler. If you can get that into your playing you will be well ahead of the usual. It is a bit like classical musicians trying to play dance music and it laking all lift or dance. Yes, they can play and it can draw attention to itself, but it doesn't make you want to dance, it doesn't define the dance and help the dancer. Follow the fiddler and eventually the dance and dancers. If you can get some experience there, even if just sitting in and watching, it will help you...
Sorry if I rant a bit, I love it when dance and music become one, whatever the version...
Maybe the fiddler would be willing and have the time to record some things for you to learn by ear? If you aren't as familiar with each others music and playing together, there's always the old way, just one, or two tunes to a set...
My fiddle teacher has been helping put together a set of Scottish reels for a dance set. It is a 32 bar set consisiting of :Chckered Stockings ( It has an A part only) 2x, Short-Coated Mary (AB) once through, The Old Grey Cat (ABBA), Spirit of Pultney (AB) once through, Reprise Checkered Stockings once through, Short-Coated Mary reprise once through and finish with Checkered Stockings to come full circle.
Ouch! ~ Sorry Pirate-Fiddler, I know people do this, but it really is one of those things that wind me up ~ one tune after the other, whether or not you repeat the string of tunes again. For one it doesn't give the dancers something to associate with, to hum when they leave the dance floor, for another it ends up being robotic, like going through the motions but not really playing the music, playing the dots... You might be able to dance to it, but it, for me, usually means staid and lifeless bounce... Yes, as I said, I know others don't agree and practice this rush of melodies, but I can't see how it does the music or the dance any good, personally speaking... It is a 'new way' courtesy of the folks of the RSCDS, and to me an abuse of the music... I have found myself in sessions like this, where they never repeated a tune but just rattled one off after the other, so I know some take this for granted, but I like the music too much to listen to typewriters. I wouldn't stay and suffer through that for long. My curiosity answered I'd go elsewhere. I wouldn't even choose to sit and listen to that for long, and I have never enjoyed it on the dance side of it...
You and your fiddle teacher aren't alone doing this, but I would strongly warn against it, as I have. You can take the warning or leave it...
HI, Ben. Long time no see at session. Is it David who'll be playing with you? He's very supportive if you ask him exactly what he wants. Who's teaching the class? The caller rules! JC's has several Scottish sets for country dancing. I'm assuming 32 bar tunes would do the trick; but it's best to ask the organizers of the class.
Ceol,
It sound like you assume I am primaraly a "HIghland Style" piper. The truth is, I play dance music with fiddlers and guitar players all the time, just not normally for dancers in dance sets. Also, the highland pipes are not my pipe of choice, that would be the Scottish border pipes. My question was not on material or tune choice, but on arrangement. I normally arrange things in performance-style sets, not dance sets.
Sorry if that came off snappy, it is not my intention.
Vonnieestes,
No, I am not playing with Dave. I am playing with Pete Sutherland of Vermont for a class at my college. We are hiring him in. At this point he also might decide to play guitar rather than fiddle.
No, it didn't Ben. Nice, border pipes, lovely... Pete Sutherland, very nice... I'm beaming, you are lucky, and good on Pete to consider guitar for the dance, to accompany you.
Yes ~ 32 bar tunes, and two to a set should be sufficient, several times through each. Keep it simple, even one tune in a set done well, and that gives you more freedom to plug into the dance and daners and learn from them...
YES! ~ Definitely contact the teacher/caller. I'm surprised if I didn't start with that, but I'm pretty shot from this continuing 'lurgy', but getting better. I haven't put a quarantine sign on the outside door yet...
I am getting more and more interested in hearing a report after you get this going. I wish I could attend the classes...
Good luck! My fingers are crossed for you, but I'm also confident, your openness in asking is a good sign...
Ah, Pete. Yes, he also volunteers music lessons at a private school once a week.
We've played only one country barn dance with him, definitely not staid Scottish or English style - he was on 5 string banjo; but he can do many styles with ease on practically any stringed instrument. Have great fun with him and the dancers! And listen to the caller!!!!
Reels for country dancing
Reels for country dancing
Hello, I am a piper who has been asked to play with a renowned U.S. folk fiddler for a dance class.
My question involves the playing of reels for dancers. I play a lot of single (2x8 bars) and I know most reels in country Dancing are Double Reels (2x16), as well as a few odd balls that are 3x16.
What is the ruling on setting up sets of reels?
Thanks in advance.
# Posted on March 12th 2008 by Ben Miller
Re: Reels for country dancing
Sorry, I just realized my notation was a little confusing.
I meant that my single reels are 8 bars to a part, usually with two parts, and that double reels are 16 bars to a part, usually with two parts (though I have some with three.)
How should these be arranged for country dancing?
# Posted on March 12th 2008 by Ben Miller
Re: Reels for country dancing
Well all you have to do is play them twice as many times as you would play a 32 bar reel. So, if there is 192 bars in a dance set, you need to play 3 different single reels (16 bar), 4 times each. Or, you could play 3 different double reels (32 bar), 2 times each. I'm not an expert on this, but, as far as I know, it's really up to you how you arrange the tunes. Just make sure you start and stop at the right time and the tempo is ok.
Good luck with it anyway, sounds fun!
# Posted on March 12th 2008 by 52Paddy
Re: Reels for country dancing
There is know issues with the divisions of tune lengths within the set? No: "'A' part should be thins long" kind of thing?
# Posted on March 12th 2008 by Ben Miller
Re: Reels for country dancing
I've never played a single reel for a dance, so I'm thinking you should stick with the double reels. You can look at the index of tunes in the Portland Collection and get an idea of some good tunes for dances:
http://www.theportlandcollection.com/books_and_cds.htm
good luck!
# Posted on March 12th 2008 by airport
Re: Reels for country dancing
Single reels work fine, in fact, they can be a blast, but it is usually best to start with doubles, 32 bars, and then lead into 16 bar tunes. Sometimes a caller / prompter will have some musical knowledge too and may even know dances where those definted 8 bar changes work beautifully. The thing is being able to hold them together in pairs, so 2 x 16 = 32, for dances that fit that structure. Some dances, Irish too, fit 3-part and larger tune sizes. The composed but official dance "The Rakes of Mallow", is perfect for single reels, and ideal are the 5-part single reels. We had worked up a set of such just for that dance... We've also fitted in, later on, multi-part tunes divisable by 32, one way or another, more direct 4-part tunes, but even using 3-part x 2, and larger. After they are comfortable with the basics and that is supported, in the case of 32 bar dances, then you can have some fun, and if you are, with respect for the dancers, the chances are they will too.
As you're in North America, you might want to also chat with the fiddler, and bring any dance teacher/caller/prompter into it, to find out what kind of introduction they prefer. In the 'old days', and still here with most things, an 'A-for-not' was and is the norm, meaning once through 8 bars, or for a 32 bar tune start ~ AAABBAABB-etc... But, some prefer 4 potatoes. You'll also need to find out about tempo, and dancers on the whole respect a steady and supportive rhythm to the usual mayhem of a session, where it fluctuates...
There are several collections, as mentioned already "The Portland Collection" ~ I & II, and Randy Miller's "New England Fiddler", but that's assuming you're meaning something like that, like contras and squares (quadrilles), big circle, sicilians, etc...? You do mention 'country dance', but that covers a wide selection of possibilities... Tell us more...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Reels for country dancing
"renowned U.S. folk fiddler" ~ what better source for specifics... Lucky you, so much to learn and someone to guide you... Good luck...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Reels for country dancing
We haven't decided whether it will be English or Scottish style dancing yet... The music choice will definitely be more Scottish....
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Ben Miller
Re: Reels for country dancing
Ben, is this 'Scottish' in the RSCDS (Royal Scottish Country Dancing) way? I take it you have the ears already, and a fine fiddler too, your first place to go for tunes and agreement of sets to play. Even the Kerr (Scottish) collections are predominantly 2-part 32 bar tunes... If you go that route it won't be just 'reels', it will be jigs and strathspeys too, at the least. I'd ask your fiddler friend for some choice recordings, as I suspect they will have a great store if you don't yourself. That would also give you the ear training to know what kind of sound is expected. There are some fun ceilidh band recordings, and there are RSCDS country dance recordings too.
Playing for dance, how lucky is that. Be sure to be comfortable enough with your selections that you will not only be able to hear each other but to see the dance unfold to your music. If it comes together, whatever the type, it is a great high, one of the best...
Whichever, Scottish or English or both, as to 'country dance', it is usually more relaxed, so with your experience it shouldn't be a problem. Both appreciate, as with any dance or dancer, a pronounced and strong rhythm. I'd love to hear how it turns out.
Great Highland Bagpipes, Ben, I love dancing to pipes, but generally it isn't a good thing with Scottish, in my experience. The best I ever heard for dance came out of the Maritimes of Canada, Cape Breton. It was 'dance music', very different from the usual, and you could not keep your feet still it was that alive and happy... You luck out again, with an already established dance fiddler, emulate them, try to think past your bagpipe indoctrination and listen to and follow the lead of the fiddler. If you can get that into your playing you will be well ahead of the usual. It is a bit like classical musicians trying to play dance music and it laking all lift or dance. Yes, they can play and it can draw attention to itself, but it doesn't make you want to dance, it doesn't define the dance and help the dancer. Follow the fiddler and eventually the dance and dancers. If you can get some experience there, even if just sitting in and watching, it will help you...
Sorry if I rant a bit, I love it when dance and music become one, whatever the version...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Reels for country dancing
Maybe the fiddler would be willing and have the time to record some things for you to learn by ear? If you aren't as familiar with each others music and playing together, there's always the old way, just one, or two tunes to a set...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Reels for country dancing
For a dance class, seems like one or two tunes to a set will be enough. I'm with ceol - lucky you!
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by airport
Re: Reels for country dancing
My fiddle teacher has been helping put together a set of Scottish reels for a dance set. It is a 32 bar set consisiting of :Chckered Stockings ( It has an A part only) 2x, Short-Coated Mary (AB) once through, The Old Grey Cat (ABBA), Spirit of Pultney (AB) once through, Reprise Checkered Stockings once through, Short-Coated Mary reprise once through and finish with Checkered Stockings to come full circle.
It's a good soild set
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Reels for country dancing
Ouch! ~ Sorry Pirate-Fiddler, I know people do this, but it really is one of those things that wind me up ~ one tune after the other, whether or not you repeat the string of tunes again. For one it doesn't give the dancers something to associate with, to hum when they leave the dance floor, for another it ends up being robotic, like going through the motions but not really playing the music, playing the dots... You might be able to dance to it, but it, for me, usually means staid and lifeless bounce... Yes, as I said, I know others don't agree and practice this rush of melodies, but I can't see how it does the music or the dance any good, personally speaking... It is a 'new way' courtesy of the folks of the RSCDS, and to me an abuse of the music... I have found myself in sessions like this, where they never repeated a tune but just rattled one off after the other, so I know some take this for granted, but I like the music too much to listen to typewriters. I wouldn't stay and suffer through that for long. My curiosity answered I'd go elsewhere. I wouldn't even choose to sit and listen to that for long, and I have never enjoyed it on the dance side of it...
You and your fiddle teacher aren't alone doing this, but I would strongly warn against it, as I have. You can take the warning or leave it...
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Reels for country dancing
HI, Ben. Long time no see at session. Is it David who'll be playing with you? He's very supportive if you ask him exactly what he wants. Who's teaching the class? The caller rules! JC's has several Scottish sets for country dancing. I'm assuming 32 bar tunes would do the trick; but it's best to ask the organizers of the class.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by vonnieestes
Re: Reels for country dancing
Ceol,
It sound like you assume I am primaraly a "HIghland Style" piper. The truth is, I play dance music with fiddlers and guitar players all the time, just not normally for dancers in dance sets. Also, the highland pipes are not my pipe of choice, that would be the Scottish border pipes. My question was not on material or tune choice, but on arrangement. I normally arrange things in performance-style sets, not dance sets.
Sorry if that came off snappy, it is not my intention.
Vonnieestes,
No, I am not playing with Dave. I am playing with Pete Sutherland of Vermont for a class at my college. We are hiring him in. At this point he also might decide to play guitar rather than fiddle.
It should be fun.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Ben Miller
Re: Reels for country dancing
No, it didn't Ben. Nice, border pipes, lovely... Pete Sutherland, very nice... I'm beaming, you are lucky, and good on Pete to consider guitar for the dance, to accompany you.
Yes ~ 32 bar tunes, and two to a set should be sufficient, several times through each. Keep it simple, even one tune in a set done well, and that gives you more freedom to plug into the dance and daners and learn from them...
YES! ~ Definitely contact the teacher/caller. I'm surprised if I didn't start with that, but I'm pretty shot from this continuing 'lurgy', but getting better. I haven't put a quarantine sign on the outside door yet...
I am getting more and more interested in hearing a report after you get this going. I wish I could attend the classes...
Good luck! My fingers are crossed for you, but I'm also confident, your openness in asking is a good sign...
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Reels for country dancing
Ah, Pete. Yes, he also volunteers music lessons at a private school once a week.
We've played only one country barn dance with him, definitely not staid Scottish or English style - he was on 5 string banjo; but he can do many styles with ease on practically any stringed instrument. Have great fun with him and the dancers! And listen to the caller!!!!
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by vonnieestes