It seems we constantly struggle with this Sisyphean challenge of trying to put tunes into sets. Whether we're preparing for gigs, changing the sets because of new band members, or just wondering what tunes would go together well if we wanted to rip off some sets, we seem to struggle like crazy figuring out which tunes to string together.
Do any of you have guidelines, rules, methods for figuring out which tunes to play together?
For starters, our sort of general principles have been:
1) what did "fill in the blank musician(s)" play in a set?
2) put tunes together in keys that make up typical chord changes (e.g., tune in D, followed by tune in G, followed by tune in A)
3) Generally prefer tunes to progress UP the scale rather than down (e.g., Em tunes follow D tunes; A tunes follow G tunes)
You kind words of advice (or admonition) are appreciated.
Yeah, I like to put them together to tell dirty jokes, for example, sometimes I Speed the Plough while Tossing the Feathers with the Maid Behind the Bar, if you know what I'm saying.
Tunes in the key of A, eh? Nobody likes the whistle player/piper, eh?
There's no rules, of course, and the best fun is stringing them together on the fly in a session off of the top of your collective heads. Woo hoo! Good times.
SWFL - agree that tunes on the fly is great fun at sessions, but sometimes it is necessary for us have scripted sets so we're not standing on stage saying to each other "I dunno, what doyou wanna play".
fiain- that's a great suggestion.
It just seems some tunes just sound really, really good togther and some do not. I'm hoping some of you have figured out why.
A good key change is F major - A major -I heard the,
kilfenora ceili band,do it once, what a lift when its two good
fast tunes{Reels} you can play well,,
jim,,,
However, the ones I usually pre-plan for a performance are ones that have come out well from the spontaneous session environment. That's the place to try your sets, and the ones that come out the best are the ones to perform.
I was going over some of my favourite sets, both ones that I put together myself and ones that I've heard at sessions and on CDs, and the very vague and general rule that seems to unify all of them is: in sets that work well, adjacent tunes differ in exactly one significant way. For instance:
* Tunes with similar rhythms, the same notes, but different tonal centres (eg, the oft-combined Maid Behind the Bar (Dmaj) followed by Cooley's Reel (Edor))
* Tunes with similar rhythms, same tonal centre, but in different modes (fiáin's idea - I like a set I made of the Festival reel (Ddor) followed by The Wise Maid (Dmaj))
* Tunes in the same key and mode and similar themes, with the second being a bit more energetic than the last (Road to Lisdoonvarna/Swallowtail Jig, both in Dmaj - compare the endings of DCD B2A | B2 E E2 and DCD AGF | GED E2. If you're not averse to changing meter, After the Battle of Aughrim/Brenda Stubbert's (march and reel, both Ador) and Morrison's Jig/Drowsy Maggie (jig and reel, both Edor) fall into this category as well.)
* Tunes in the same key and mode, similar rhythms, where the ending of the first contains the same or similar intervals as the beginning of the second, but different note (Ladies' Chain/Dennis Murphy's Polka, both in Dmaj: the former ends ABAG F2 | D2 D2; the latter begins fgfe d2 | B2 A2). (This can sometimes backfire if the similar parts are too long: a flute player last night led Tripping Up the Stairs/Swallowtail Jig, the B part of the former being almost-but-not-quite the same as the A part of the latter but shifted up a fifth; it took my fingers a few seconds to figure out what was going on.)
* Tunes in the same key, same mode, same rhythm, but with very different melodies. (The Wind that Shakes the Barley/The Merry Blacksmith, both in Dmaj) - I think of the beginning of the latter as sort of being an "upside-down version" of the beginning of the former.)
Not that I was actually thinking of any of these things when putting sets together, and I doubt that most folks putting sets together are thinking about these things as well. The only thing that the few sets I've put together have in common is that they're the tunes I found myself humming one right after the other in the shower. What good sets have in common to me as a listener is that they're the ones that catch me off guard for a few bars during the transition, and then make me think, "yeah, I wasn't expecting that, but that really works!"
I agree that sets that create a natural lift and resolve with the key progressions (as listed above) are fun to listen to. However, one of my favorite sets is one I learned off an Irish Tradition record where Congress/ Down the Broom/ Star of Munster all stay in Am. Really, almost anything goes doesn't it? If it appeals to the ear it's a good set.
Well, sex can be better with tunes or romantic songs to set the mood, but I don't find music necessary, and certainly not so carefully arranged as the posts so far seem to suggest....
I almost never know ahead of time what I'm playing after the first tune, though I do tend to group tunes together the same way over time, so I have a few 'standard' sets that I play.
If I'm in a session, and no one else knows the first tune or two in a set, I'll finish with a standard that I'm pretty sure everyone knows.
I suppose there is a slight preference for tunes that move "up" in tonal center. I also find I will stay in the same key through out the set. There are other ways to establish contrast.
One thing I enjoy is actually letting the dynamic level DROP going from one tune to the next.
In sessions, I tend to prefer the follow-on tune to be a surprise, rather than have very worked out sets ahead of time. I like the dynamic of recognizing a tune on the fly and coming up with a musically effective way to 'latch on.'
Or not, if I don't know the tune. SWFL's been stretching out my repertoire!
Excuse me, Will CPT, but what Jusa Nutter Eejit said was
"SETS that create a natural lift".
Please clean your glasses, or take a cold shower.
TD&M, I had no idea you put so much thought into your sets.
I'm impressed.
Was the enigmatic "flute player last night" the same one who re-named the tune which had temporarily lost its 4th part,
"Shark In The Morning"?
SWFL Fiddler
Your answer about the Ones that are tried in the
session environment,, Are by far the best,because even
good sets you and a friend make up in the house, dont
always work when you play them out.Tried in a session environment- Is a good Answer...
jim,,
SWFL - you misunderstand! I meant your set building based on suggestive names with implied vulgarity. That's what impresses me. However, I also respect your ability to conjure up regular tunes on the fly to build sets as well.
On a side note, if memory serves, I think yer man Van Steenwyk made a Phoenix session a few years ago. Class fiddler and Class gentlemen. Played a lovely version of Maudabawn Chapel. Please visit us again...
Oldstrings - oh, this thought I put into putting sets together tends to occur in retrospect, although now that I've been able to identify a few general elements that make sets work, the hit:miss ratio of the sets I put together myself is greater than it used to be. Still, of the examples of sets that I gave, only two are ones I actually put together myself - the others are just ones I've enjoyed.
We used to have a whistle player who was into building the perfect set. "How about these ones?" he'd say. "They're all in G." "Yeah, but they're all in a *different* G." That's when I started thinking it doesn't matter all that much if you can make the set work.
As well you know, so does our good man from Miami, Mr. Van Steenwyk. In fact, it gets a little "Beavis and Butthead" from time to time with the set names, but I can see you enjoy such nonsense as much as we do!
Putting tunes into sets
Putting tunes into sets
It seems we constantly struggle with this Sisyphean challenge of trying to put tunes into sets. Whether we're preparing for gigs, changing the sets because of new band members, or just wondering what tunes would go together well if we wanted to rip off some sets, we seem to struggle like crazy figuring out which tunes to string together.
Do any of you have guidelines, rules, methods for figuring out which tunes to play together?
For starters, our sort of general principles have been:
1) what did "fill in the blank musician(s)" play in a set?
2) put tunes together in keys that make up typical chord changes (e.g., tune in D, followed by tune in G, followed by tune in A)
3) Generally prefer tunes to progress UP the scale rather than down (e.g., Em tunes follow D tunes; A tunes follow G tunes)
You kind words of advice (or admonition) are appreciated.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by daddae
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Someone I know does an effective set of four polkas.
They go: D Major, B Minor, A Major, D Major.
(that is, in that order.)
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Although it seems stupid, I like to put tunes with similar/same names together. For example, the two tenpenny bits fit together well in a set
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by alexthomas
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Yeah, I like to put them together to tell dirty jokes, for example, sometimes I Speed the Plough while Tossing the Feathers with the Maid Behind the Bar, if you know what I'm saying.
Tunes in the key of A, eh? Nobody likes the whistle player/piper, eh?
There's no rules, of course, and the best fun is stringing them together on the fly in a session off of the top of your collective heads. Woo hoo! Good times.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Putting tunes into sets
I like changes from minor to major keys without changing the basic note. Amin/dor -> Amaj is great, for example Brenda Stubbert's -> Frank's Reel.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by s.g.
Re: Putting tunes into sets
SWFL - agree that tunes on the fly is great fun at sessions, but sometimes it is necessary for us have scripted sets so we're not standing on stage saying to each other "I dunno, what doyou wanna play".
fiain- that's a great suggestion.
It just seems some tunes just sound really, really good togther and some do not. I'm hoping some of you have figured out why.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by daddae
Re: Putting tunes into sets
A good key change is F major - A major -I heard the,
kilfenora ceili band,do it once, what a lift when its two good
fast tunes{Reels} you can play well,,
jim,,,
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Of course!
However, the ones I usually pre-plan for a performance are ones that have come out well from the spontaneous session environment. That's the place to try your sets, and the ones that come out the best are the ones to perform.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Putting tunes into sets
I was going over some of my favourite sets, both ones that I put together myself and ones that I've heard at sessions and on CDs, and the very vague and general rule that seems to unify all of them is: in sets that work well, adjacent tunes differ in exactly one significant way. For instance:
* Tunes with similar rhythms, the same notes, but different tonal centres (eg, the oft-combined Maid Behind the Bar (Dmaj) followed by Cooley's Reel (Edor))
* Tunes with similar rhythms, same tonal centre, but in different modes (fiáin's idea - I like a set I made of the Festival reel (Ddor) followed by The Wise Maid (Dmaj))
* Tunes in the same key and mode and similar themes, with the second being a bit more energetic than the last (Road to Lisdoonvarna/Swallowtail Jig, both in Dmaj - compare the endings of DCD B2A | B2 E E2 and DCD AGF | GED E2. If you're not averse to changing meter, After the Battle of Aughrim/Brenda Stubbert's (march and reel, both Ador) and Morrison's Jig/Drowsy Maggie (jig and reel, both Edor) fall into this category as well.)
* Tunes in the same key and mode, similar rhythms, where the ending of the first contains the same or similar intervals as the beginning of the second, but different note (Ladies' Chain/Dennis Murphy's Polka, both in Dmaj: the former ends ABAG F2 | D2 D2; the latter begins fgfe d2 | B2 A2). (This can sometimes backfire if the similar parts are too long: a flute player last night led Tripping Up the Stairs/Swallowtail Jig, the B part of the former being almost-but-not-quite the same as the A part of the latter but shifted up a fifth; it took my fingers a few seconds to figure out what was going on.)
* Tunes in the same key, same mode, same rhythm, but with very different melodies. (The Wind that Shakes the Barley/The Merry Blacksmith, both in Dmaj) - I think of the beginning of the latter as sort of being an "upside-down version" of the beginning of the former.)
Not that I was actually thinking of any of these things when putting sets together, and I doubt that most folks putting sets together are thinking about these things as well. The only thing that the few sets I've put together have in common is that they're the tunes I found myself humming one right after the other in the shower. What good sets have in common to me as a listener is that they're the ones that catch me off guard for a few bars during the transition, and then make me think, "yeah, I wasn't expecting that, but that really works!"
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Putting tunes into sets
I agree that sets that create a natural lift and resolve with the key progressions (as listed above) are fun to listen to. However, one of my favorite sets is one I learned off an Irish Tradition record where Congress/ Down the Broom/ Star of Munster all stay in Am. Really, almost anything goes doesn't it? If it appeals to the ear it's a good set.
SWFL - I like the way your brain works.
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Well, sex can be better with tunes or romantic songs to set the mood, but I don't find music necessary, and certainly not so carefully arranged as the posts so far seem to suggest....
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Putting tunes into sets
I almost never know ahead of time what I'm playing after the first tune, though I do tend to group tunes together the same way over time, so I have a few 'standard' sets that I play.
If I'm in a session, and no one else knows the first tune or two in a set, I'll finish with a standard that I'm pretty sure everyone knows.
I suppose there is a slight preference for tunes that move "up" in tonal center. I also find I will stay in the same key through out the set. There are other ways to establish contrast.
One thing I enjoy is actually letting the dynamic level DROP going from one tune to the next.
In sessions, I tend to prefer the follow-on tune to be a surprise, rather than have very worked out sets ahead of time. I like the dynamic of recognizing a tune on the fly and coming up with a musically effective way to 'latch on.'
Or not, if I don't know the tune. SWFL's been stretching out my repertoire!
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Excuse me, Will CPT, but what Jusa Nutter Eejit said was
"SETS that create a natural lift".
Please clean your glasses, or take a cold shower.
TD&M, I had no idea you put so much thought into your sets.
I'm impressed.
Was the enigmatic "flute player last night" the same one who re-named the tune which had temporarily lost its 4th part,
"Shark In The Morning"?
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Putting tunes into sets
SWFL Fiddler
Your answer about the Ones that are tried in the
session environment,, Are by far the best,because even
good sets you and a friend make up in the house, dont
always work when you play them out.Tried in a session environment- Is a good Answer...
jim,,
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Putting tunes into sex
"And the sharks they played melodions, at the dawning of the day".
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Thanks Jusa Nutter and Jim, it seems like a natural progression, right? "Works well in the session, let's put it on the set list for the gig!"
...and nobody let jwvansteenwyk fool ya, he's too humble, I've learned plenty from that character!
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Putting tunes into sets
SWFL - you misunderstand! I meant your set building based on suggestive names with implied vulgarity. That's what impresses me. However, I also respect your ability to conjure up regular tunes on the fly to build sets as well.
On a side note, if memory serves, I think yer man Van Steenwyk made a Phoenix session a few years ago. Class fiddler and Class gentlemen. Played a lovely version of Maudabawn Chapel. Please visit us again...
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Putting tunes into sets
admonition - what a great word.
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by session savage
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Admonition seems so much more appropriate than "criticism" when you're among friends...
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by daddae
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Oldstrings - oh, this thought I put into putting sets together tends to occur in retrospect, although now that I've been able to identify a few general elements that make sets work, the hit:miss ratio of the sets I put together myself is greater than it used to be. Still, of the examples of sets that I gave, only two are ones I actually put together myself - the others are just ones I've enjoyed.
And yes, that was the flute player...
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Putting tunes into sets
We used to have a whistle player who was into building the perfect set. "How about these ones?" he'd say. "They're all in G." "Yeah, but they're all in a *different* G." That's when I started thinking it doesn't matter all that much if you can make the set work.
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by Gzeg
Re: Putting tunes into sets
LOL Jusa Nutter! I'm glad you appreciate that!
As well you know, so does our good man from Miami, Mr. Van Steenwyk. In fact, it gets a little "Beavis and Butthead" from time to time with the set names, but I can see you enjoy such nonsense as much as we do!
# Posted on February 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Putting tunes into sets
Ah, you're too kind, Mr. eedjit! The fact is, though, that it was you Phoenicians who were pulling me along!
I remember two banjo players and both of ya's were wonderful, subtle players. Had a terrific time. Hope I can get to AZ again, soon!
# Posted on February 27th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk