My instrument of choice is the synthesizer. But my best synth is unportable in the extreme, and while I have a portable (and battery powered) setup as well, not all sessions are synthesizer friendly.
So I'm considering the Anglo Concertina, and have some questions.
1. Is a 20 button instrument even worth considering? The difference in price between 20 and 30 buttons is noticeable.
Come read all about it on the site hosted by a concertina player who used to play keyboards himself, Paul Schwartz: Concertina.net, which I believe is already listed on the Links page.
Ken Coles
Short answer is for ITM the convention is to use C/G boxes almost exclusively. It takes as long to learn as any instrument. I have been at it 5 years or so and am finally intermediate level. 20-key boxes are only good for a short initial learning period, as not being able to play in D or A loses you more than half of all ITM. But many of us started that way.
I agree with Ken - it's best to save up and buy a decent 30 keyer in the first place or you'll soon regret it and only the professionals (or collectors) usually start to dabble with concertinas in other keys.
I moved to Concertina after playing bouzouki and other strings and the learning curve was steep (all those buttons!), however with practice, the buttons and differing notes on the push pull become familiar friends and when you master bellows changes, this can influence the lilt of a tune greatly (and help boost your flagging confidence in your ability to ever learn the beast).
In my view it's worth learning tunes with ornamentation from the start, as flowing ornamentation comes with plenty of practice and can differ widely depending on the notes being played.
From all I have seen there are only two tutorials which truly teach the Anglo as played in the music:
You could add to the tutorial list John Williams' (ex Solas) video, though there's only about 5 tunes covered and one of those is that hackneyed beginner's favourite "The Kesh" (not to be played in any sessions in Ireland - it's the tune equivalent of "Danny Boy" !).
Hi Dave.
Might I suggest that you consider using an English system Concertina, its similar to playing keyboards, in that the notes are the same pushed or pulled. There is a type celled a "Duet" specifically designed for playing Keyboard pieces.
Agree totally - a 30 plus box is a must - if you take to it, you will outgrow a 20 key box within a year!
Dont buy one yet - read concertina.net for a month or two and see what people say/buy/sell as a guide - Bob Tedrow seems to be the maker in the US to ask for advice.
There are a number of different trains of thought on whether to play all tunes on the middle row with accidentals as needed, to play up the C or G row, or a mixture of both.
As well as the excellent MFTrad CD, I can also recomment both of Mary McNamaras cds - she plays on the slow side with very little ornamentation - just the job for learners.
A SlowerDown package (Roni Software) is also recommended as some cds have anglos in F# etc so you need to move them up a pitch to play along (as well as slow them down).
It is not recomended for anglo players to listen to Noel Hill as they will quickly get disheartened - no one else can play like him, play as many notes or as fast as him! (Other musicians are allowed to be inspired by him though).I hear his courses/workshops are the very best and he comes to US regularly!
Do not consider English or Duet for ITM. I say this with total confidence as I am an english concertina player who plays weekly with one of the best anglo players in the world (One of the above mentioned). If
Excuse me for wandering off at a tangent, but can somebody explain to me what is meant by a C/G or D/G concertina?
I understand what it means in terms of button accordions - a B/C or C#/D, for example has two rows pitched a semitone apart, making it fully chromatic, while a D/G only allows you to play in two keys, since the two rows share all the same notes except F/F#.
So, if the same applies to the Anglo concertina, how is it possible to play in A or D on a C/G instrument? Are there other rows that people don't talk about?
Yes, there is a third row on the 30-button C/G concertina that contains a lot of accidental notes. That's the difference between the 20-button and 30-button concertina, and it's why you need a 30-button 'tina if you want to play Irish music!
You can play Irish tunes on an English, or a 20 button, or a G/D - but why would you want to do that to yourself? An experienced player might be able to fool around with those options and enjoy some Irish tunes, but starting off with one of those instruments sounds like loads of frustration waiting to happen.
I know that the 30 button C/Gs can be cost prohibitive, but I would think that it'd be better to save up and buy one rather than waste a bunch of time on another instrument. Well, not waste, as long as it's fun it's not a waste, but you know what I mean. Besides, you can always sell the instrument if you're not into it.
One thing that might help you determine if you're into it is getting some instruction.
From your profile I see that you live in NC. There's an excellent concertina player up here in Asheville that gives lessons (can't promise he'd take on another student, but I bet he'd at least show you a few things) and there are several players in the Raleigh area. I think they might go to the James Joyce, but I'm not sure.
There's also the Swannanoa Gathering in the summer and from what I understand, the Charlottesville crowd has some concertina players, at least one excellent one that I know of.
So, I think your possibilities for getting a few pointers in Anglo concertina are out there. It'd be a lot easier than figuring out Irish tunes on the English, 20 button, or a G/C on your own.
Basically, I think that the best reason to save up and go with a C/G is that you're not going to be able to find people to help you out or be able to go to workshops very easily if you do anything else.
I would also highly recommend Barlycorn Concertinas. I haven't gotten a concertina through them, but I have arranged the purchase of a flute and Chris is great to work with.
i know i'm doing a 'me-to' here, but *don't* get a 20 button anglo. you'll outgrow it way too fast -- and the lack of a C-sharp will make you crazy.
*do* get an anglo rather than any other sort of concertina, but make sure you buy one with at least 30 buttons. i agree with everyone who's said that an english just isn't suitable for irish music. it's not impossible to play irish well on an english concertina, but the tendency of an english to want to be played smoothly makes it hard to get the proper rhythm.
of the mid-range concertinas made now, the one edgely concertina i've played was very good. i also liked the anglos that the button box sells, although i'm a bit dubious about the waxed reeds. i haven't played a tedrow yet, but i hear good things about them.
if you can find a 30-button lachenal with good action (and there *are* some of those), that might be the best solution among the less expensive alternatives.
and given the choice between the 50s wheatstone and the stagi, i'd wait for something better to come along. i've played a few 50s wheatstones and haven't cared much for any of them.
Every one of Dave's questions has been covered in detail at concertina.net, some by me, some by others. I have tried 7 mid-level new makes with accordion reeds and it is interesting how they vary. I have editorialized there (guys, us poor working stiffs have to start with _something_) that Stagis or 20-key Lachenals got a lot of us started. Many more people than will admit it, and some quite well-known. I won't retype all that here, Dave, go check the articles there, and the 11,000 messages in the bulletin board archive. Every single one of your questions is hashed over in great detail several times a year for about 5 years now. BTW 26-key Lachenals turn up at decent prices and they have enough notes to get you going.
I know a great player in or very near N.C. You need to meet some live bodies with concertinas -- it will help.
Yes, C/G anglos are at a premium at the moment, especially metal-ended Jeffries (up to double the cost of a top-of-the-range metal-ended english) BUT, you will have no problems whatsoever selling it.
Aim high - get the best 30 plus key you can.
I have never seen any tutors for ITM on other concertina layouts - its the bellows work that makes the rhythm.
I've been reading extensively over at Concertina.net, and here, and Bob Tedrow, Chris Algar, Wendy Morrison, and the folks at Button Box have been extremely generous with their time over the phone.
Essentially, it is looking like I cannot meet all three of the desired goals within my constraints.
Goals:
1. An instrument that is more generally accepted and more portable than synthesizers for ITM
2. Sufficient range to play enough tunes to be worth the learning and the expense.
3. Access to workshops and teachers (also not something generally an option for synthesizers and ITM)
Constraints:
1. Total cost under $1000US
2. A quality instrument that will last and not depreciate in value
So, what I've found is:
30 button C/G anglos (either mid-range new or vintage restored) meet all three goals, but fail on the cost constraint.
The 30 button C/G Stagis also meet all three goals, but fail on the quality constraint.
20 button C/G anglos (vintage restored), meet both constraints, but have limited range.
A 20 button G/D anglo (vintage restored, there really is one) would meet both constraints, but make workshops difficult or impossible.
A 48 button English concertina (vintage restored) may squeak in under the cost constraint, but again, makes workshops difficult or impossible, although there is a local teacher.
You pretty well sum it up, Dave. Maybe you should post your little summary as an article at concertina.net. If you've talked to the names you've named, you won't have missed anything. Aren't they great people? Very helpful to all of us.
You can't get a perfect, inexpensive starter instrument for most other musical idioms either. Nevertheless, many people somehow get started all the time. If this is your interest, you will too.
You can dabble in fiddle or guitar for a few hundred dollars (I have, I love playing my $325 fiddle), but with concertina it is hard to do that. I don't mean to be a traitor to the concertina community, but a fellow ITM concertina player tells some concertina wannabes that all your constraints are easier to meet with a B/C accordion. More teachers and fellow players too (in the U.S. at least). It is worth considering. Good luck.
Well, after much thought, and a lot of research, I am getting a vintage Lachenal 20 button G/D concertina (5 fold bellows, steel reeds, newly restored) from Barleycorn Concertinas.
It meets my constraints, although I won't be able to take much advantage of workshops or teaching materials.
The final deciding point was that a vintage 20 key G/D is extremely rare, so it was either get it now or not get it.
I should be able to work from the C/G fingerings to prepare a set of G/D fingerings, so I am going to try to pick a tune or two and workout the fingerings and arrangement to learn when it gets here.
Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Questions about the Anglo Concertina
My instrument of choice is the synthesizer. But my best synth is unportable in the extreme, and while I have a portable (and battery powered) setup as well, not all sessions are synthesizer friendly.
So I'm considering the Anglo Concertina, and have some questions.
1. Is a 20 button instrument even worth considering? The difference in price between 20 and 30 buttons is noticeable.
2. C/G or G/D?
3. How difficult is it to learn?
# Posted on May 13th 2003 by Dave Weinstein
Anglo Concertina
Come read all about it on the site hosted by a concertina player who used to play keyboards himself, Paul Schwartz: Concertina.net, which I believe is already listed on the Links page.
Ken Coles
Short answer is for ITM the convention is to use C/G boxes almost exclusively. It takes as long to learn as any instrument. I have been at it 5 years or so and am finally intermediate level. 20-key boxes are only good for a short initial learning period, as not being able to play in D or A loses you more than half of all ITM. But many of us started that way.
# Posted on May 13th 2003 by KenC
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
I agree with Ken - it's best to save up and buy a decent 30 keyer in the first place or you'll soon regret it and only the professionals (or collectors) usually start to dabble with concertinas in other keys.
I moved to Concertina after playing bouzouki and other strings and the learning curve was steep (all those buttons!), however with practice, the buttons and differing notes on the push pull become familiar friends and when you master bellows changes, this can influence the lilt of a tune greatly (and help boost your flagging confidence in your ability to ever learn the beast).
In my view it's worth learning tunes with ornamentation from the start, as flowing ornamentation comes with plenty of practice and can differ widely depending on the notes being played.
From all I have seen there are only two tutorials which truly teach the Anglo as played in the music:
Niall Vallely's excellent MadforTrad video-based CD-ROM to be found at http://www.madfortrad.com.
and
"The Anglo Concertina - Handbook of Tunes and Methods for Irish Traditional Music" by Frank Edgley (http://www.concertinas.ca).
# Posted on May 13th 2003 by Concertina Player
You could add to the tutorial list John Williams' (ex Solas) video, though there's only about 5 tunes covered and one of those is that hackneyed beginner's favourite "The Kesh" (not to be played in any sessions in Ireland - it's the tune equivalent of "Danny Boy" !).
# Posted on May 13th 2003 by Concertina Player
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Hi Dave.
Might I suggest that you consider using an English system Concertina, its similar to playing keyboards, in that the notes are the same pushed or pulled. There is a type celled a "Duet" specifically designed for playing Keyboard pieces.
All the best PP
# Posted on May 13th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Agree totally - a 30 plus box is a must - if you take to it, you will outgrow a 20 key box within a year!
Dont buy one yet - read concertina.net for a month or two and see what people say/buy/sell as a guide - Bob Tedrow seems to be the maker in the US to ask for advice.
There are a number of different trains of thought on whether to play all tunes on the middle row with accidentals as needed, to play up the C or G row, or a mixture of both.
As well as the excellent MFTrad CD, I can also recomment both of Mary McNamaras cds - she plays on the slow side with very little ornamentation - just the job for learners.
A SlowerDown package (Roni Software) is also recommended as some cds have anglos in F# etc so you need to move them up a pitch to play along (as well as slow them down).
It is not recomended for anglo players to listen to Noel Hill as they will quickly get disheartened - no one else can play like him, play as many notes or as fast as him! (Other musicians are allowed to be inspired by him though).I hear his courses/workshops are the very best and he comes to US regularly!
# Posted on May 13th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Are there ITM workshops for English and/or Duet concertinas?
One of the things leading me to consider learning the Concertina is that I can't really take advantage of workshop environments with the synthesizers.
# Posted on May 13th 2003 by Dave Weinstein
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Do not consider English or Duet for ITM. I say this with total confidence as I am an english concertina player who plays weekly with one of the best anglo players in the world (One of the above mentioned). If
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Tusong200
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
If the option were a 20 button restored vintage instrument (for example, a Lachenal, or a 30 button modern Stagi, which would people recommend?
The notion of spending $1600-$2000 on an instrument that I don't know I'll continue with is somewhat difficult to overcome.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dave Weinstein
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Excuse me for wandering off at a tangent, but can somebody explain to me what is meant by a C/G or D/G concertina?
I understand what it means in terms of button accordions - a B/C or C#/D, for example has two rows pitched a semitone apart, making it fully chromatic, while a D/G only allows you to play in two keys, since the two rows share all the same notes except F/F#.
So, if the same applies to the Anglo concertina, how is it possible to play in A or D on a C/G instrument? Are there other rows that people don't talk about?
Excuse my ignorance.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Yes, there is a third row on the 30-button C/G concertina that contains a lot of accidental notes. That's the difference between the 20-button and 30-button concertina, and it's why you need a 30-button 'tina if you want to play Irish music!
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by johnkerr
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
And yet another question.
It seems that a 20 button G/D concertina would handle quite a large number of tunes (D, E Dorian, G, and E Minor).
Is this a reasonable step (knowing that the fingering knowledge is completely lost if changing to a C/G) to see if I enjoy playing the instrument?
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dave Weinstein
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
You can play Irish tunes on an English, or a 20 button, or a G/D - but why would you want to do that to yourself? An experienced player might be able to fool around with those options and enjoy some Irish tunes, but starting off with one of those instruments sounds like loads of frustration waiting to happen.
I know that the 30 button C/Gs can be cost prohibitive, but I would think that it'd be better to save up and buy one rather than waste a bunch of time on another instrument. Well, not waste, as long as it's fun it's not a waste, but you know what I mean. Besides, you can always sell the instrument if you're not into it.
One thing that might help you determine if you're into it is getting some instruction.
From your profile I see that you live in NC. There's an excellent concertina player up here in Asheville that gives lessons (can't promise he'd take on another student, but I bet he'd at least show you a few things) and there are several players in the Raleigh area. I think they might go to the James Joyce, but I'm not sure.
There's also the Swannanoa Gathering in the summer and from what I understand, the Charlottesville crowd has some concertina players, at least one excellent one that I know of.
So, I think your possibilities for getting a few pointers in Anglo concertina are out there. It'd be a lot easier than figuring out Irish tunes on the English, 20 button, or a G/C on your own.
Basically, I think that the best reason to save up and go with a C/G is that you're not going to be able to find people to help you out or be able to go to workshops very easily if you do anything else.
I would also highly recommend Barlycorn Concertinas. I haven't gotten a concertina through them, but I have arranged the purchase of a flute and Chris is great to work with.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by jerball
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
P.S. - No one expects the piano accordion!
But, if you pick that one up let me know before you show up at our session so I can pack the ear plugs! HaHa!
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by jerball
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
One consideration is a restored 1950s era Wheatstone 20 button, which would cost about the same as a modern Stagi 30 button, both in C/G.
If the choice were between those two instruments, what do people recommend?
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dave Weinstein
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
i know i'm doing a 'me-to' here, but *don't* get a 20 button anglo. you'll outgrow it way too fast -- and the lack of a C-sharp will make you crazy.
*do* get an anglo rather than any other sort of concertina, but make sure you buy one with at least 30 buttons. i agree with everyone who's said that an english just isn't suitable for irish music. it's not impossible to play irish well on an english concertina, but the tendency of an english to want to be played smoothly makes it hard to get the proper rhythm.
of the mid-range concertinas made now, the one edgely concertina i've played was very good. i also liked the anglos that the button box sells, although i'm a bit dubious about the waxed reeds. i haven't played a tedrow yet, but i hear good things about them.
if you can find a 30-button lachenal with good action (and there *are* some of those), that might be the best solution among the less expensive alternatives.
and given the choice between the 50s wheatstone and the stagi, i'd wait for something better to come along. i've played a few 50s wheatstones and haven't cared much for any of them.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by sarahc
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Every one of Dave's questions has been covered in detail at concertina.net, some by me, some by others. I have tried 7 mid-level new makes with accordion reeds and it is interesting how they vary. I have editorialized there (guys, us poor working stiffs have to start with _something_) that Stagis or 20-key Lachenals got a lot of us started. Many more people than will admit it, and some quite well-known. I won't retype all that here, Dave, go check the articles there, and the 11,000 messages in the bulletin board archive. Every single one of your questions is hashed over in great detail several times a year for about 5 years now. BTW 26-key Lachenals turn up at decent prices and they have enough notes to get you going.
I know a great player in or very near N.C. You need to meet some live bodies with concertinas -- it will help.
Best,
Ken
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by KenC
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Yes, C/G anglos are at a premium at the moment, especially metal-ended Jeffries (up to double the cost of a top-of-the-range metal-ended english) BUT, you will have no problems whatsoever selling it.
Aim high - get the best 30 plus key you can.
I have never seen any tutors for ITM on other concertina layouts - its the bellows work that makes the rhythm.
# Posted on May 15th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
I've been reading extensively over at Concertina.net, and here, and Bob Tedrow, Chris Algar, Wendy Morrison, and the folks at Button Box have been extremely generous with their time over the phone.
Essentially, it is looking like I cannot meet all three of the desired goals within my constraints.
Goals:
1. An instrument that is more generally accepted and more portable than synthesizers for ITM
2. Sufficient range to play enough tunes to be worth the learning and the expense.
3. Access to workshops and teachers (also not something generally an option for synthesizers and ITM)
Constraints:
1. Total cost under $1000US
2. A quality instrument that will last and not depreciate in value
So, what I've found is:
30 button C/G anglos (either mid-range new or vintage restored) meet all three goals, but fail on the cost constraint.
The 30 button C/G Stagis also meet all three goals, but fail on the quality constraint.
20 button C/G anglos (vintage restored), meet both constraints, but have limited range.
A 20 button G/D anglo (vintage restored, there really is one) would meet both constraints, but make workshops difficult or impossible.
A 48 button English concertina (vintage restored) may squeak in under the cost constraint, but again, makes workshops difficult or impossible, although there is a local teacher.
Is there anything I'm missing in this?
Thanks again for everyone's help...
# Posted on May 15th 2003 by Dave Weinstein
You've got it
You pretty well sum it up, Dave. Maybe you should post your little summary as an article at concertina.net. If you've talked to the names you've named, you won't have missed anything. Aren't they great people? Very helpful to all of us.
You can't get a perfect, inexpensive starter instrument for most other musical idioms either. Nevertheless, many people somehow get started all the time. If this is your interest, you will too.
You can dabble in fiddle or guitar for a few hundred dollars (I have, I love playing my $325 fiddle), but with concertina it is hard to do that. I don't mean to be a traitor to the concertina community, but a fellow ITM concertina player tells some concertina wannabes that all your constraints are easier to meet with a B/C accordion. More teachers and fellow players too (in the U.S. at least). It is worth considering. Good luck.
# Posted on May 15th 2003 by KenC
Re: Questions about the Anglo Concertina
Well, after much thought, and a lot of research, I am getting a vintage Lachenal 20 button G/D concertina (5 fold bellows, steel reeds, newly restored) from Barleycorn Concertinas.
It meets my constraints, although I won't be able to take much advantage of workshops or teaching materials.
The final deciding point was that a vintage 20 key G/D is extremely rare, so it was either get it now or not get it.
I should be able to work from the C/G fingerings to prepare a set of G/D fingerings, so I am going to try to pick a tune or two and workout the fingerings and arrangement to learn when it gets here.
Wish me luck...
# Posted on June 2nd 2003 by Dave Weinstein