Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Rather than post this to Tunes I thought I'd post this here as it is my first attempt at creating an ABC file. Comments welcome on style, accuracy (or inaccuracy) or just general help. Neither my theoretical musical knowledge, time nor ear are wonderful so be gentle on a first attempt - it's the first thing I have ever tried to transcribe to muscial dots.
The tune is by Catriona Mackay of Fiddlers Bid and I heard it on Transatlantic Sessions 3 and liked it. As I wanted a friend to play it (who likes dots) I thought I'd have a go at transcribing it so that he could learn to play it. It's mentioned a few times on this site but there is no transciption yet that I could find. Still, I wouldn't have learned anything if there had been
One of the difficult things I found was trying to decide what was ornament and what was tune and the Harp is a different sort of beast to the mandolin I try and play it on
X:1
T:Swan LK243
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:120
N:Probably many more grace notes and ornaments in the original
C:Catriona Mackay
Z:Nick 23/01/08
K:F
|:FG|Af (3e/f/e/ c Ac|G4FB|A4Fc|ABG2FG|
Af (3e/f/e/ cAc|GAce fcAB|G3cF2-|F4FG|
Af (3e/f/e/ cAc|G4FB|A4Fc|ABG2FG|
Af (3e/f/e/ cAc|GAc efc|ABG3c|ABG2FE|
D3FCF|B,3CDF|G4FG|(3G/A/G/ FG2F (3E/F/C/|
D3FCF|B,3A,3|B,A,B, CDB,|C3F (3E/F/E/ C|
D3FCF|B,3CDF|G4FG|(3G/A/G/ FG2F(3E/F/ C/|
D3FCF|B,3A,3|B,A,B, CDF|G3Ace|
f4(3f/g/f/ e|c4BA|BcF3A|BAB cde|
fgfe (3f/g/f/ e|c4BA|BcF3A|BAB cde|
f4(3f/g/f/ e|c4BA|BcF3A|BAB ceg|
agfe (3f/g/f/ e|c4BA|BcF3G|F4:|
When you post a tune it is for members who use the "Tunes" tab.
The initial posting can be stripped down to the notes. The reason for this is that you, or anyone else, can post additional "Comments" under that tab. As you stated, mactavish, on mandolin you might not play the same ornaments (articulations) as a harpist. Look over some tune "Comments" & you will probably find some good examples
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Try downloading a program that will allow you to view the sheet music before posting it. I use ABC Navigator 2. It lets you view the sheet music and listen to a MIDI file of the ABC notation that you enter into it. I'm not very good at writing out the dots either, so I use it to check my work before posting it onto this site. I also use it to listen to tunes that I come across that are in ABC notation.
FYI, you can always edit the ABC notation of a tune after you post it here, if someone points out a mistake or has a suggestion.
Navigator 2 works ~ onine you can use the Covert-A-Matic http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
FidDLe01 is correct about being able to edit your Abc text after posting. I do believe however that once the sheet music (& probably MIDI) appear they might refer to whatever is in Abc at the time.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
I know some folks are opposed to it, but I prefer to have a tune notated as played. Of course, that represents just one pass at one version of the tune and notation never captures everything, etc., but I can’t think of a situation where I’d prefer having the little stylistic bits removed.
I like to see comments attached with alternate versions and different approaches to the "ornamentation". If somebody wants to enter an "unornamented" version, then fine. I don't care (much) which is the official posting.
Some ornaments are not possible on some instruments, marking all the ornaments as played by say a banjo player can just confuse other instrumentalists, as it becomes impossible to play as written. That is why we generally dont put the ornaments in unless it states specifically which instrument the notatiion is for/ from. ie; pipers or fiddlers version.
It is more considerate of other musicians to refrain from marking out the ornaments in full.It makes it easier to read for those of us new to reading as well.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Yes, the instrument should be noted. Good point. Still I'd rather have something representing a tune as played on *some* instrument. That’s more meaningful and useful to *me*. It’s okay with me if a stripped down version is also included.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Ok, but i argue it is not a stripped down version, it is the tune, the melody. simple and clear. we can build upon that melodic base or not as we choose.How we choose to ornament is a personal decision, whether we wish to copy some great fiddler is up to us, but it is not really the idea surely?
There is a good reason for people like Breandon Breathnach, to notate tunes in the standard fashion, without ornaments. It allows us to use our own minds to decide what and where to ornament.
When I teach a tune I rarely include ornaments, just the bones. once the tune is learnt then perhaps i might suggest possibilities.
The point is it leaves it up to us to use our brain to ornament the tune.
A big part of the music is us putting 'our say 'on the tune, some people like florid highly ornamented stuff in their homes, others prefer the zen like simplicity.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
"There is a good reason for people like Breandon Breathnach, to notate tunes in the standard fashion, without ornaments."
What?!!?!!!!!
Breandan Breathnach went out of his *way* to notate ornaments in just about every tune he ever wrote down. I have all the 'Ceol Rince' books and once had the privilege to meet the man.
Look at Breathnach's transcriptions. There's ornaments *all over the place*. Not only that, but he gave, in the front of every book, a detailed guide as to how the particular - his own invention - notations for the ornaments should be played on the various instruments associated with the Irish tradition.
(The meeting was a weird experience, actually. I was in a music shop, somewhere in the West, I've got a feeling it was Tralee, and this strange man sidled up to me [he really did 'sidle'] and started telling how great a particular series of tune books was and what fantastic academic knowledge was displayed by whoever had put them together, and how there weren't really any other books to compare with them. He was right, of course.)
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
He used one system for No 1 and 3 and in 2 he wrote out the ornaments, he reverted back to a simpler setting in 3 though he still puts in cuts and triplets, but not rolls etc.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Bob, I really dont think it is semantics, but a basic principle of ITM.
That being it is a personal/regional choice as to how to ornament. .If people get the impression that you 'must put a roll here' or whatever because thats how it is written, it diminishes the art of playing the tunes with our own interpenetration. Or if one regional style promotes its own brand of ITM exceptionally well, we might end up with only this style.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Advice to post a tune in the Tunes Section initially in an unornamented format has nothing whatsoever to do with arguments about whether a "tune" is, or is not, defined by its ornaments. The reason is a purely pragmatic one so as to make it easier to search for a tune on this website using a fragment of ABC code.
If a tune is in the Tunes Section in an ABC format festooned with all sorts of ornaments a simple ABC sequence in the tune may not be identified by a search because it will have been obscured by the ornaments, and so the tune itself may not be found. Even worse is to post a tune with chord sequences!
It is for this simple practical reason that ornaments and chord sequences are best left to versions of the tune later on in the comments section.
Sorry lazyhound you make a good point. Just keep in mind that if you are searching for a tune with Abc code it works better under the Home Page Link Search than the Tunes Search Link. Cheers hound dog!
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
I'm really really fecked off with this argument about what is tune and what is ornament.
You play a tune. You sit and play a tune. Every single nuance of your music is the tune. A lot of it is your messing with it, but it's all tune. And it's impossible to separate what is regurgitation and what is personally developed repetition and what is on the fly improvisation. It's impossible. The terms "tune" and "decoration" are inseparable.
I'm not interested in the semantics of it either, but I'm afraid it's semantics that causes this whole bloody confusion in the first place. The idea that we have these precious things that are written in stone (or worse still, embeded in the impregnable, unalterable world wide web) called "tunes" and that we use our own interpretations to hang baubles on them is preposterous. It's just not how it works.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
"Bob, I really dont think it is semantics, but a basic principle of ITM."
But it really *is* semantics. We're using different labels for the same object - the tune with the fine-scale stylistic elements stripped out. The twiddly bits, as Michael says. All I'm saying is that, whether that minimal representation is posted or not, I, personally, am far more interested in seeing real, living, breathing versions of the tune as played in the real world. The more interpretations, the better.
Trevor's point is well taken, though, for those who do ABC searches for tunes. But wouldn't the tune be found as easily in the comments as in the official tune posting? I don't know, since I've never done that search. Whatever. The question was raised (again) as to whether the stripped down tune should be posted *instead* of a more accurate representation of how the tune is played in real life. As a member of this community, I'm expressing my preference that the more full realized tune be posted. I really don't care whether the stripped down tune is also posted.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
TheMuse - yes, I fail to see it. I think I see what *you* mean, but I cannot understand suggesting that rolls aren't notated in Ceol Rince 1 and 3, or that Breathnach notated tunes 'without ornaments'. I know they're not written out in full every single time - he uses a short cut, but he still provides his own full notation for the rolls and where they 'should' go.
But the original comment was that Breathnach notated tunes without ornaments, and it's simply not true. There are cuts, rolls, triplets, even notations for when to slide up - or down - to a note.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
So, what was my first attempt at ABC like and how could it be improved? Is there much that is glaringly wrong in it?
On THIS particular tune would you consider the triplets as part of the tune (I guess I did otherwise I would have left them out)? When the fiddle comes in and plays the tune on the versions I've heard it plays the themes slightly differently to the harp. There are various grace notes throughout however which I don't consider part of the tune and those I did leave out.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
*instead* of a more accurate representation of how the tune is played in real life'' By who Bob?
Yes benhall, fair enough, but its not where they 'should' go, but where an ornament was when he transcribed them.
Llig>>. Every single nuance of your music is the tune. >> No. its your interpretation of the tune. A highly ornamented tune is no more or less a tune than a simple setting with little if any ornaments. Its that simple. Even then regional variation can mean a tune is so different in one area it could almost be a different tune.... but its not, its the same tune with a different setting.
Mactavish, I cant help you. I have only ever notated 2 tunes in ABC. so.... triplets, hmmm. well thats debatable. Is the cork hornpipe the cork hornpipe with no triplets?
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Breathnach notated tunes as he heard them played, and in many instances he gives the source.
If you see an ornamented tune in print it's no big problem for you to mentally ignore the ornaments and to "see" the skeleton of the tune if you so wish when searching for a tune. But it's quite a different matter, as I pointed out above, if a search program here is trying to find a string of ABC characters when other characters connected with ornamentation are part of the mix. It's not an impossible task to write a search program that ignores ornaments, but I don't expect to see it implemented here any time time soon.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
''it's no big problem for you to mentally ignore the ornaments''
For some people this is true. But say the tune above; personally i found it unreadable because of the 'ornaments' I am not used to reading semiquaver triplets. I dont know how they sound. so as someone who taught myself to read at age 30 or so, I am working with limitations you might not realise. Ok, my problem, fair enough, but why submit any tune? to share it with others right? so why confuse issues with ornaments only relevant to a particular instrument?
For centuries the dots have been the only way to record tunes , in some cases save them from oblivion. I enjoy finding new tunes from the dots. I dont have to hear them if they are written simply and clearly. The idea is to communicate. for some people, the written ornaments get in the way of this.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Back to the tune; i notice that, say in bar14, the notes are grouped in two sets of three. this should really be 3 groups of 2 otherwise you are indicating a rhythm change, into a jig... This is the convention right?
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
mactavish
It looks ok, the midi sounds ok to me. It's good enough for me to understand the flow of the tune and compelling enough for me to want to hear it played for real. That's all I expect from a decent submission. I think the repeat dots are unnecessary. If you want to know if it's perfect and a monument to abc notation, you'll need to get your answer from somebody else.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
“*instead* of a more accurate representation of how the tune is played in real life'' By who Bob?”
By anyone who enjoys playing the tune! There is no definitive version. There are only instances of the tune being played. Given a binary choice, I’d rather see a passable representation of one of those instances than the stripped-down entity that serves as an aid to ABC searches.
I can hardly wait to see this tune posted.
Interesting discussion. It reminds me of learning ornamentations. I have learned from pipers & flute players. Grey Larsen calls them 'articulations'.
He has even come up with a notation system which differs from the classic system.
I think it is grand that people post "full" versions &/or various interpretations. A stripped down version is useful for 2 purposes;
1) This gives you a 'lead sheet'
With this you should be able to play the tune, as well as articulate most; if not all; of the twiddly bits.
2) The "Tunes Comments" section is an excellent place for posting various interpretations. You may (if one chooses) submit a simple version & ~ ad infinitum ~ add comments (w/abcs) of articulate on a given instrument, how Liam O'Flynn plays the tune, different keys . . .
Now the question of the tune with or without the twiddly bits: One short anwer ~ notes & twiddly bits = trad tune.
So why the lead sheet?
Long answer . . .
Not so you can play notes & no twiddly bits;
You should however have at least a sense of where the bits go;
One side comment is about writing Abcs. The lead sheet is often very straightforward (in terms of text editing). With articulated versions it becomes much more important to get the editing right. Having said that I think some people are in fact able to write up excellent full version scores with abcs. I try to my self ~ But all thinks considered keep the visual charts to a minimum. Use your ears to play. Use abcs to discuss tunes online.
If you have not done so already check out some of the "Tunes Comments" I can think of some session members who can provide you with pages of full versions on any given tune.
It helps to know that you can use Abc's to generate a score even if it is not the one which was originally submitted.
The link above (Tune-O-Tron) is just one online editor which gives you a pdf score &/or MIDI. You can transpose ABCs on other sites . . . etc. . .
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
For me, the main reason to post a stripped-down version of the tune first is that it's easier to find using an advanced search. Otherwise the searcher must guess which articulations the poster included and exactly how they were written out. Same goes for chords.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
My point exactly. Most people, most of the time won't think to do a homepage search. The site will be more useful in general if the 1st submission is a very basic, common version.
Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Rather than post this to Tunes I thought I'd post this here as it is my first attempt at creating an ABC file. Comments welcome on style, accuracy (or inaccuracy) or just general help. Neither my theoretical musical knowledge, time nor ear are wonderful so be gentle on a first attempt - it's the first thing I have ever tried to transcribe to muscial dots.
The tune is by Catriona Mackay of Fiddlers Bid and I heard it on Transatlantic Sessions 3 and liked it. As I wanted a friend to play it (who likes dots) I thought I'd have a go at transcribing it so that he could learn to play it. It's mentioned a few times on this site but there is no transciption yet that I could find. Still, I wouldn't have learned anything if there had been
One of the difficult things I found was trying to decide what was ornament and what was tune and the Harp is a different sort of beast to the mandolin I try and play it on
X:1
T:Swan LK243
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:120
N:Probably many more grace notes and ornaments in the original
C:Catriona Mackay
Z:Nick 23/01/08
K:F
|:FG|Af (3e/f/e/ c Ac|G4FB|A4Fc|ABG2FG|
Af (3e/f/e/ cAc|GAce fcAB|G3cF2-|F4FG|
Af (3e/f/e/ cAc|G4FB|A4Fc|ABG2FG|
Af (3e/f/e/ cAc|GAc efc|ABG3c|ABG2FE|
D3FCF|B,3CDF|G4FG|(3G/A/G/ FG2F (3E/F/C/|
D3FCF|B,3A,3|B,A,B, CDB,|C3F (3E/F/E/ C|
D3FCF|B,3CDF|G4FG|(3G/A/G/ FG2F(3E/F/ C/|
D3FCF|B,3A,3|B,A,B, CDF|G3Ace|
f4(3f/g/f/ e|c4BA|BcF3A|BAB cde|
fgfe (3f/g/f/ e|c4BA|BcF3A|BAB cde|
f4(3f/g/f/ e|c4BA|BcF3A|BAB ceg|
agfe (3f/g/f/ e|c4BA|BcF3G|F4:|
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by mactavish
Swan LK243
Here is Catriona playing on Transatlantic Sessions;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e6GleQ9sl0
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
"One of the difficult things I found was trying to decide what was ornament and what was tune."
Take the leap of lateral thinking and realise that's because the "so called" oornament are part of the tune.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ...
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
I was advised by a friend who uses this site that good practice is to post a tune WITHOUT grace notes and ornamentation hence the comment
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by mactavish
First attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
When you post a tune it is for members who use the "Tunes" tab.
The initial posting can be stripped down to the notes. The reason for this is that you, or anyone else, can post additional "Comments" under that tab. As you stated, mactavish, on mandolin you might not play the same ornaments (articulations) as a harpist. Look over some tune "Comments" & you will probably find some good examples
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Try downloading a program that will allow you to view the sheet music before posting it. I use ABC Navigator 2. It lets you view the sheet music and listen to a MIDI file of the ABC notation that you enter into it. I'm not very good at writing out the dots either, so I use it to check my work before posting it onto this site. I also use it to listen to tunes that I come across that are in ABC notation.
FYI, you can always edit the ABC notation of a tune after you post it here, if someone points out a mistake or has a suggestion.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by fiddleplayer01
ABC comments/help welcome
Navigator 2 works ~ onine you can use the Covert-A-Matic
http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
FidDLe01 is correct about being able to edit your Abc text after posting. I do believe however that once the sheet music (& probably MIDI) appear they might refer to whatever is in Abc at the time.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
I used the concertina.net converter which does that sort of thing
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by mactavish
;)
onine = online
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Covert-a-Matic - is that the CIA version?
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by mactavish
Oh my!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
How to do triplets? when i put 3 in front of the notes I thought it should come up as a triplet... but not on the concertina site... confused.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Triplet (Abc)
(3
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
thanks, sorted. 2nd tune posted
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
I know some folks are opposed to it, but I prefer to have a tune notated as played. Of course, that represents just one pass at one version of the tune and notation never captures everything, etc., but I can’t think of a situation where I’d prefer having the little stylistic bits removed.
I like to see comments attached with alternate versions and different approaches to the "ornamentation". If somebody wants to enter an "unornamented" version, then fine. I don't care (much) which is the official posting.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
Revalation.
Some ornaments are not possible on some instruments, marking all the ornaments as played by say a banjo player can just confuse other instrumentalists, as it becomes impossible to play as written. That is why we generally dont put the ornaments in unless it states specifically which instrument the notatiion is for/ from. ie; pipers or fiddlers version.
It is more considerate of other musicians to refrain from marking out the ornaments in full.It makes it easier to read for those of us new to reading as well.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Yes, the instrument should be noted. Good point. Still I'd rather have something representing a tune as played on *some* instrument. That’s more meaningful and useful to *me*. It’s okay with me if a stripped down version is also included.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Ok, but i argue it is not a stripped down version, it is the tune, the melody. simple and clear. we can build upon that melodic base or not as we choose.How we choose to ornament is a personal decision, whether we wish to copy some great fiddler is up to us, but it is not really the idea surely?
There is a good reason for people like Breandon Breathnach, to notate tunes in the standard fashion, without ornaments. It allows us to use our own minds to decide what and where to ornament.
When I teach a tune I rarely include ornaments, just the bones. once the tune is learnt then perhaps i might suggest possibilities.
The point is it leaves it up to us to use our brain to ornament the tune.
A big part of the music is us putting 'our say 'on the tune, some people like florid highly ornamented stuff in their homes, others prefer the zen like simplicity.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Well, I’m not interested in a semantic argument. You can call it “the tune” and I’ll call it a stripped down version of the tune.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
"There is a good reason for people like Breandon Breathnach, to notate tunes in the standard fashion, without ornaments."
What?!!?!!!!!
Breandan Breathnach went out of his *way* to notate ornaments in just about every tune he ever wrote down. I have all the 'Ceol Rince' books and once had the privilege to meet the man.
Look at Breathnach's transcriptions. There's ornaments *all over the place*. Not only that, but he gave, in the front of every book, a detailed guide as to how the particular - his own invention - notations for the ornaments should be played on the various instruments associated with the Irish tradition.
(The meeting was a weird experience, actually. I was in a music shop, somewhere in the West, I've got a feeling it was Tralee, and this strange man sidled up to me [he really did 'sidle'] and started telling how great a particular series of tune books was and what fantastic academic knowledge was displayed by whoever had put them together, and how there weren't really any other books to compare with them. He was right, of course.)
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ethical blend
Swan LK243
O. K. how about these 2 preferences in context ~
Swan LK243?
Llig . . .
Jig . . .
Bob . . .
Etc . . ?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Comments/help welcome
benall1 ~ do you fail to see how you absolute confirmed what jig is stating ?????!!!!!!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
He used one system for No 1 and 3 and in 2 he wrote out the ornaments, he reverted back to a simpler setting in 3 though he still puts in cuts and triplets, but not rolls etc.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Bob, I really dont think it is semantics, but a basic principle of ITM.
That being it is a personal/regional choice as to how to ornament. .If people get the impression that you 'must put a roll here' or whatever because thats how it is written, it diminishes the art of playing the tunes with our own interpenetration. Or if one regional style promotes its own brand of ITM exceptionally well, we might end up with only this style.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Swan LK243
Thanks jig
mactavish, unless someone has an 'actual' suggestion, I think you've got it.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Advice to post a tune in the Tunes Section initially in an unornamented format has nothing whatsoever to do with arguments about whether a "tune" is, or is not, defined by its ornaments. The reason is a purely pragmatic one so as to make it easier to search for a tune on this website using a fragment of ABC code.
If a tune is in the Tunes Section in an ABC format festooned with all sorts of ornaments a simple ABC sequence in the tune may not be identified by a search because it will have been obscured by the ornaments, and so the tune itself may not be found. Even worse is to post a tune with chord sequences!
It is for this simple practical reason that ornaments and chord sequences are best left to versions of the tune later on in the comments section.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
?
Try searching from the "Home" page
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Swan LK243??????!!!!!!
Sorry lazyhound you make a good point. Just keep in mind that if you are searching for a tune with Abc code it works better under the Home Page Link Search than the Tunes Search Link. Cheers hound dog!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Swan LK243 - first attempt
It's a boat on Shetland Island ~ eh?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
I'm really really fecked off with this argument about what is tune and what is ornament.
You play a tune. You sit and play a tune. Every single nuance of your music is the tune. A lot of it is your messing with it, but it's all tune. And it's impossible to separate what is regurgitation and what is personally developed repetition and what is on the fly improvisation. It's impossible. The terms "tune" and "decoration" are inseparable.
I'm not interested in the semantics of it either, but I'm afraid it's semantics that causes this whole bloody confusion in the first place. The idea that we have these precious things that are written in stone (or worse still, embeded in the impregnable, unalterable world wide web) called "tunes" and that we use our own interpretations to hang baubles on them is preposterous. It's just not how it works.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ...
Swan LK243
Fine ~ You write it out.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
"Bob, I really dont think it is semantics, but a basic principle of ITM."
But it really *is* semantics. We're using different labels for the same object - the tune with the fine-scale stylistic elements stripped out. The twiddly bits, as Michael says. All I'm saying is that, whether that minimal representation is posted or not, I, personally, am far more interested in seeing real, living, breathing versions of the tune as played in the real world. The more interpretations, the better.
Trevor's point is well taken, though, for those who do ABC searches for tunes. But wouldn't the tune be found as easily in the comments as in the official tune posting? I don't know, since I've never done that search. Whatever. The question was raised (again) as to whether the stripped down tune should be posted *instead* of a more accurate representation of how the tune is played in real life. As a member of this community, I'm expressing my preference that the more full realized tune be posted. I really don't care whether the stripped down tune is also posted.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
TheMuse - yes, I fail to see it. I think I see what *you* mean, but I cannot understand suggesting that rolls aren't notated in Ceol Rince 1 and 3, or that Breathnach notated tunes 'without ornaments'. I know they're not written out in full every single time - he uses a short cut, but he still provides his own full notation for the rolls and where they 'should' go.
But the original comment was that Breathnach notated tunes without ornaments, and it's simply not true. There are cuts, rolls, triplets, even notations for when to slide up - or down - to a note.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
So, what was my first attempt at ABC like and how could it be improved? Is there much that is glaringly wrong in it?
On THIS particular tune would you consider the triplets as part of the tune (I guess I did otherwise I would have left them out)? When the fiddle comes in and plays the tune on the versions I've heard it plays the themes slightly differently to the harp. There are various grace notes throughout however which I don't consider part of the tune and those I did leave out.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by mactavish
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
*instead* of a more accurate representation of how the tune is played in real life'' By who Bob?
Yes benhall, fair enough, but its not where they 'should' go, but where an ornament was when he transcribed them.
Llig>>. Every single nuance of your music is the tune. >> No. its your interpretation of the tune. A highly ornamented tune is no more or less a tune than a simple setting with little if any ornaments. Its that simple. Even then regional variation can mean a tune is so different in one area it could almost be a different tune.... but its not, its the same tune with a different setting.
Mactavish, I cant help you. I have only ever notated 2 tunes in ABC. so.... triplets, hmmm. well thats debatable. Is the cork hornpipe the cork hornpipe with no triplets?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
I know it's not where they *should* go. Hence the inverted commas in my original comment.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
fair enough.
Interesting thread.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16447about ornaments.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Breathnach notated tunes as he heard them played, and in many instances he gives the source.
If you see an ornamented tune in print it's no big problem for you to mentally ignore the ornaments and to "see" the skeleton of the tune if you so wish when searching for a tune. But it's quite a different matter, as I pointed out above, if a search program here is trying to find a string of ABC characters when other characters connected with ornamentation are part of the mix. It's not an impossible task to write a search program that ignores ornaments, but I don't expect to see it implemented here any time time soon.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
''it's no big problem for you to mentally ignore the ornaments''
For some people this is true. But say the tune above; personally i found it unreadable because of the 'ornaments' I am not used to reading semiquaver triplets. I dont know how they sound. so as someone who taught myself to read at age 30 or so, I am working with limitations you might not realise. Ok, my problem, fair enough, but why submit any tune? to share it with others right? so why confuse issues with ornaments only relevant to a particular instrument?
For centuries the dots have been the only way to record tunes , in some cases save them from oblivion. I enjoy finding new tunes from the dots. I dont have to hear them if they are written simply and clearly. The idea is to communicate. for some people, the written ornaments get in the way of this.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
jig - that last post is "like a red rag to a Llig"
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by domhnall.
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Back to the tune; i notice that, say in bar14, the notes are grouped in two sets of three. this should really be 3 groups of 2 otherwise you are indicating a rhythm change, into a jig... This is the convention right?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
domnull, really? why?
and anyhow, should i care?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
There are plenty of tunes we all know and play that were rescued from oblivion solely because people like Captain O'Neill notated them.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
mactavish
It looks ok, the midi sounds ok to me. It's good enough for me to understand the flow of the tune and compelling enough for me to want to hear it played for real. That's all I expect from a decent submission. I think the repeat dots are unnecessary. If you want to know if it's perfect and a monument to abc notation, you'll need to get your answer from somebody else.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ∅
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
“*instead* of a more accurate representation of how the tune is played in real life'' By who Bob?”
By anyone who enjoys playing the tune! There is no definitive version. There are only instances of the tune being played. Given a binary choice, I’d rather see a passable representation of one of those instances than the stripped-down entity that serves as an aid to ABC searches.
Apologies to mactavish for the digression.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Fair enough, but its not really a digression is it? we are talking about submitting tunes with or without ornaments. Pro's and con's.
Laitch, where did you translate the ABC into midi?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
ABCMus translates any ABC into midi.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
jig
http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
It's one of the choices after the abc file submission is processed.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ∅
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
thanks, live and learn eh
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Swan LK243 - comments
I can hardly wait to see this tune posted.
Interesting discussion. It reminds me of learning ornamentations. I have learned from pipers & flute players. Grey Larsen calls them 'articulations'.
He has even come up with a notation system which differs from the classic system.
I think it is grand that people post "full" versions &/or various interpretations. A stripped down version is useful for 2 purposes;
1) This gives you a 'lead sheet'
With this you should be able to play the tune, as well as articulate most; if not all; of the twiddly bits.
2) The "Tunes Comments" section is an excellent place for posting various interpretations. You may (if one chooses) submit a simple version & ~ ad infinitum ~ add comments (w/abcs) of articulate on a given instrument, how Liam O'Flynn plays the tune, different keys . . .
Now the question of the tune with or without the twiddly bits: One short anwer ~ notes & twiddly bits = trad tune.
So why the lead sheet?
Long answer . . .
Not so you can play notes & no twiddly bits;
You should however have at least a sense of where the bits go;
One side comment is about writing Abcs. The lead sheet is often very straightforward (in terms of text editing). With articulated versions it becomes much more important to get the editing right. Having said that I think some people are in fact able to write up excellent full version scores with abcs. I try to my self ~ But all thinks considered keep the visual charts to a minimum. Use your ears to play. Use abcs to discuss tunes online.
If you have not done so already check out some of the "Tunes Comments" I can think of some session members who can provide you with pages of full versions on any given tune.
It helps to know that you can use Abc's to generate a score even if it is not the one which was originally submitted.
The link above (Tune-O-Tron) is just one online editor which gives you a pdf score &/or MIDI. You can transpose ABCs on other sites . . . etc. . .
Shetland tune about a boat?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHOVnFLOV4
Any one spot a roll? plenty of triplets/cuts.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX18CMR1I9Y
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
For me, the main reason to post a stripped-down version of the tune first is that it's easier to find using an advanced search. Otherwise the searcher must guess which articulations the poster included and exactly how they were written out. Same goes for chords.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by GaryAMartin
ABC comments/help welcome
I believe the Advanced Tune Search only searches the 1st 'submission' of a tune.
A homepage search will find abc code in TuneComments:
Paste this into TuneAdvancedSearch;
B2 GB AGEG | DGGF G2AB |
~ you get no matches
With a homepage search you get a hit on "Father Kelly's Reel"
The fragment is from a version in the "Comments"
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
My point exactly. Most people, most of the time won't think to do a homepage search. The site will be more useful in general if the 1st submission is a very basic, common version.
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Swan LK243 - first attempt at ABC comments/help welcome
Very helpfull muse, not that i have ever done a search, but now I know how to.
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by piobagusfidil