I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
So, as I've seen on previous discussions, most of you here seem to abhor the playing of Benoit Sauve on the recorder (though personally, I find nothing wrong with his technique, but, to save some time, I won't go into all that), but, on his site, he has some reels he plays. Does anybody have any clue as to what they are? I finally know the first one is Cooley's but the other two I can't figure out. I've been trying to transcribe it but it's been absolute hell trying to get it down because of the triplets and grace notes he apparently enjoys putting in.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The one immediately after Cooley's, played through once, is The Dawn. I don't know the third one.
A woman once told me how her husband got their budgie drunk on brandy, and it hung upside-down from its perch and sang all night. Something about Sauve's playing makes me think of that story..!
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The boy can play. But he's not Micho Russell.
The thing I find most offensive about this recording, though, is the thumping drum, twhich seems to be louder than everything else put together. (Or is it just my speakers?)
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
This sort of fast and furious playing, clever though it is, always sounds to me like a 45 rpm record playing at 78 rpm. Eventually it disappears in a cloud of dust up the orifice of the player or the recorder. Take your pick
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Well, I think Benoit's playing, especially in Morrison's, is more to showcase what a recorder is capable of. And Micho Russell played the tin whistle, I doubt he would be anything on the recorder, just getting a decent tone out of a recorder is hard, and the fingerings aren't just up and down like on a whistle. Maybe I'm just slightly poisoned by Lunasa and Matt Molloy's solos that have made me enjoy the faster side of ITM more, but this reel set is nice to listen to slowed down too. By the way, I must mention, you all do know what it's like to play all the third octave E's he puts in? Or how to finger those notes (Not to get this into a bigger discussion about recorders and whistles again)?
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
yep, your right.
Ive got nothing against speed , as long as the tune is understandable, the rhythm clear, but that just leaves me cold. Im sure technically his mastery of the instrument is good or great, but Its not really my 'cup of tea.' no offence meant.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Bearing in mind that Irish traditional music is essentially descended from the music of the Baroque period it is interesting to read Stephen Preston's comment on the playing of Baroque wind music on modern instruments, which I think can also be pertinent to the playing of Irish traditional music and, incidentally, to the 'performance' that is the subject of this discussion :
"The most important question to ask yourself is the most simple. What is the usual word for 'making' music? Of course the answer is obvious: play. Then ask yourself how often does 'playing' feel more like 'work'? Unfortunately the answer is that all too often playing is really hard work. Sometimes the difficulty of a piece is an important element, but this isn't true of most Baroque wind music. On the contrary, it was composed to give delight and pleasure to both performer and listener.
Sadly, it's not uncommon to hear Baroque music played with great technical ability but in such a way that the musical meaning and enjoyment stay out of reach. The harder such performers work, the harder their work becomes - and they never catch the real music.
The solution is to learn to 'work' less and 'play' more. Develop insight and understanding of what the music was about, how it was played and what the Baroque version of your instrument was like."
The above extract is from "A Performer's Guide to Music of the Baroque Period", published by The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music". Stephen Preston, the writer of the chapter on wind instruments, has played a leading role in the early music movement in Britain and abroad, as a solo flautist and a leading member of professional Baroque ensembles. He has also extended his interest in historically informed performance to the field of dance.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Thanks for that, Trevor. Sage advice to keep in mind. I'm in awe of Benoit's technical virtuosity, but I wish that he would use his talents better. If he slowed down just a little and hit the beat at those key points a little better, it would be glorious. It doesn't make me feel secretly superior, to know I play the tune with more lift. It makes me feel sad that someone so much better than me just doesn't get it.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Borrowed from above, quoting the quote ~
"Sadly, it's not uncommon to hear Baroque music played with great technical ability but in such a way that the musical meaning and enjoyment stay out of reach. The harder such performers work, the harder their work becomes - and they never catch the real music."
'great technical ability' in my mind includes an understanding of the music, not just being able to move your fingers quickly or your tongue. The linked to performance are arhythmic, danceless tripe. There isn't anything 'great' about what that recorder player EXECUTES... Pity the music as it is mangled to death, and I don't mean just the erratic 'speed'... I love good recorder music, this is just hogswill, sloppy, lifeless, beat to death. There is nothing 'dance' left in it, and an obvious lack of understanding and in my ears the sounds of someone out to prove something and willing to trample anything in their way to prove something, including the music... What they are trying to prove, I don't know. There was nothing in that mush that impressed me...
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The recorder sounds quite good, although the tunes are a trifle fast. I played in Manchester for a number of years with a mate who used the recorder, and he was excellent.
The drum? Well, he/she is not playing the tune, he/she is playing a taught rhythm which takes no account of the speed. It is also that "top end" style I think it is called, and this is the thing I have been complaining about. Too many players imitate John Joe playing with Flook, which is great for Flook, but a waste of time for this recording, and that is why it sounds intrusive. It is not in time with the tune, an obvious drawback for a backing instrument whose primary purpose is to keep time.
I know many people love this type of drum playing, but not me, unless you are flexible with it, as John Joe is. Too many imitators are not.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Hmmm ... I didn't like it either, although I suppose the technical ability was ... well, it wasn't impressive, was it? Because the music just left me cold.
I know the Mullingar Races well, and, even though, after several listenings (am I particularly masochistic this morning?) I can just about hear that that is, in fact, the tune he's attempting to play, it just doesn't sound like the Mullingar Races to me. It doesn't have the right 'special bits' in to be that tune.
Personally, I didn't notice the drum. I was too busy being bombarded with the manic recorder playing.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I listened to it once. Then I deleted it from my computer.
This is a simple example of how 'speed kills'.
I may be just jealous since I don't play a wind instrument
and I can't play that fast on any instrument,
but I have noticed that this type of speed
offense happens more often on wind instruments than other instruments.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Reminds me a lot of tunes played by the Galician piper, flautist and whistler Carlos Núñez, he can move his fingers at the speed of light, but...
Fortunately, it seems he is learning he can use his skills in better ways.
Re: I know this guy's music making is as irritating as a tree full of Starlings, but ~
halfwaythere ~ "I have noticed that this type of speed offense happens more often on wind instruments than other instruments."
Well, it isn't limited to winds. Many winds have a wide dynamic range to pull from, except for reeds where there's no lip contact, such as with pipes, where the dynamic range can be limited. That dynamic range can be used to give landscape to the music, to help define the dance in a melody, the rhythm, the valleys, hills and mountains, to 'lift' it and breath life into it. To race through something, akin to bad session playing, is to level it like a roller laying down hot asphalt ~ "flat out!" That and this kind of abuse is closer to feedback than music...
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Well, I'll admit I thought it was bloody awful. But the Northumbrian piper Billy Pigg, who was more or less arhythmic, could play bloody fast and all over the place time-wise and *still* sound magic nearly all the time, IMO. Maybe there's a distinct art to this. But not being accompanied by a clobberer on a drum-kit will have helped BP there.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
'This is a simple example of how 'speed kills'.' Sorry, all this proves is that just because you may be good at another type of music doesn't mean you can just decide you can play trad. That recording will do the guy no favors - to put it mildly. Bit a disaster really.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I couldn't even listen past tne first tune. Exactly the wrong way to (try to) play trad music. Compare it to Kane -- or don't bother. There is no comparison
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Gosh, that was nice, Danny!
Thanks for the link
[that means I'm happy because Kane has cheered me up - it does NOT mean I'm being sarcastic, as it seems to be used increasingly around here ... on other threads ... by other people ... oh god, stop digging ben ...]
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Sorry Key, I strongly disagree. It's awful! Yes, I've heard him, even in concert, and even with Matt Molloy in tow, and the Chieftains. Whatever mix you put him in his sad attempt at playing trad sticks out like broken glass to bare feet... It stinks!
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Well, I saw him once in concert many years ago (Galway, that is) playing those and I remember he sounded good...certainly better than the bloke this thread is meant to be featuring. All I can say is maybe that was back in the days when I didn't much about trad music, and so he sounded fine to me *then*......
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I hope you're not suggesting, Jack, that Yehudi Menuhin actually *could* play anything other than classical? Those collaborations with Stephane Grapelli were pitiful. Menuhin was completely 'shown up' by the brilliance of Grapelli.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The story I heard was that Frankie Gavin tried to instruct him on ITM fiddle at some performance where the two were playing, and the following year at the same event one of the old fellas there was overheard saying, "Where's that Yehudi McMenuhin fella?"
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
No BB I doubt we can play as well as yer man but thats hardly the point is it? Its all over the place, whether there is some technical mastery [or not] is hardly relevant, is it music?
As captain Kirk once said;'' I dont know what it is but its not ITM as we know it scotty'.
Ben, Have you Heard YM and Ravishankar? Those duets were not competitions you know! sure Stephane was the master, Yehudi readily admitted that, but thats hardy the point is it? its called playing music, that they did.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Bliss, I'm sure someone will eventually be able to invent a robot that could technically play better than that bloke. But could they invent a robot that could play with, eg, Kane's subtlety and feeling, and feel for the 'spirit' of the music? I doubt it somehow.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Yes, I did hear, a long time ago, YM and Ravi Shankar. Again, I thought he was just out of his depth. I know they weren't competitions, but, IMO, they weren't music either. YM was totally brilliant at what he was best at. He should have stuck to it.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I'm sure Yehudi Menuhin had a deep and abiding interest in jazz, folk music and Indian music, and would have liked to have played them well. But in his position he just didn't have the time to immerse himself in those musics as much as he would have wished.
Stephane Grappelli had the best of both worlds: he was self-taught as a fiddle player but later had a few years at the Paris Conservatoire.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Menuhin put both of those players up on a very high pedestal and flat out said there was no way could approach their level of mastery. He considered himself a grateful guest. I wish I could remember the name of the book to reference. It was an interesting read.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I'm interested in this idea - which has been much repeated - that Grappelli was 'self-taught'. He started, at the age of either 12 or 13, depending on who you believe, when his father, who was a violinist, taught him the basics, starting with scales, apparently ( ).
As a young teenager, he worked as a pianist accompaying silent films, playing mainly Mozart.
He studied music at the Paris Conservatoire between the ages of 16 and 20. He apparently discovered jazz around this time, when he is reported to have said "Then I discovered jazz and my vocation and kissed Amadeus goodbye."
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Look, he is playing too fast, that's it. Most melody players do this. The reason for this is that they are too busy sneering at the bodhran players, instead of listening to them.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Its not the speed per se, its that he kind of loses the rhythm, the ornaments contribute to that. Listening back to it again,Id say that it is over ornamented and the tunes are not treated as complete melodies but as a vehicle's to display the performers 'skill'.
Its not particularly fast but much too full, giving the impression of breakneck speed. The ornaments detract from the rhythm and the tune rather than adding.
Well thats my take on it anyhow.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
He's not actually playing that fast. A fair lick, yes, but no faster than the standard Dublin session speed I encountered last time I was there.
I'd expect tune players, however, to think he's playing really fast, his awful tooty phrasing and complete lack of any notion of how the diddley bits go does make it sound faster than it is. I'm surprised, however, that the best drummer in the world hadn't spotted this.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Slightly slower playing, but with dead accurate rhythm and timing, would make it sound faster than it actually is. Seems counter-intuitive, but it's true. You acquire that accuracy by slow playing (and practice), not by going flat out with your fingers in an uncoordinated mess.
And, as some of us here have said, if it's too fast to dance to then it's too fast.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The best bodhran player in the world was trying to humour melody players, and not appear to be too superior, by pointing out what is obvious to a drummer. I left that to your capable hands, Mr Llig.
Compared to our version of "The Ballydesmond Polkas" this recorder piece is a slow air.
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
AAAAAGGGGHH, it's a god damn feckin nightmare.
I agree with the jig, but not you Trev.
Jig, He doesn't use the diddley bits that WE know (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there) just trills and toots, though I agree, the whole thing is for the benefit of showing off technical mastery. So, in a way, he succeeds in that he wants to show off that he can play fast and it actually sounds faster than it is.
Trev, I don't understand you, for once. Surely, dead accurate rhythm and timing would make it sound exactly as fast as it is? Skill of this music though is to make it sound easy. So you don't play dead accurate. That makes it sound dead. You oh so subtlety pull and push it so it relaxes. How many times have you listened to the best of diddley music, loved it, then got the fiddle out to learn it and been surprised at the lick of it?
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I listened to the MP3 listed first above and came to the conclusion that either he was playing in a helium atmosphere or they had speeded up the Recorder track and added the sort of backing at a later date .
Its not speed its timing that is important .
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Its also soul that matters. the spirit.
In some ways I agree with trev though, its being 'on top' of the performance, if im allowed to use that word the pinpoint accuracy that allows the music to breathe. 'Riding' on the tune . not being dragged allong behind with one foot in the stirrup!
I would, personally here one tune played 10 times well with variation lift, drive and spirit, than three tunes flashing past in a whirl of tricks and bells on it.
I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
So, as I've seen on previous discussions, most of you here seem to abhor the playing of Benoit Sauve on the recorder (though personally, I find nothing wrong with his technique, but, to save some time, I won't go into all that), but, on his site, he has some reels he plays. Does anybody have any clue as to what they are? I finally know the first one is Cooley's but the other two I can't figure out. I've been trying to transcribe it but it's been absolute hell trying to get it down because of the triplets and grace notes he apparently enjoys putting in.
The MP3 is here:
http://www.benoitsauve.net/extraits_son/mp3H/reels2.mp3
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by JosephC
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The first tune is Jo Cooley's.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by Jon_bailey
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The one immediately after Cooley's, played through once, is The Dawn. I don't know the third one.
A woman once told me how her husband got their budgie drunk on brandy, and it hung upside-down from its perch and sang all night. Something about Sauve's playing makes me think of that story..!
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The second and third tunes are:
The Dawn http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/167
The Mullingar Races http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/225
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The boy can play. But he's not Micho Russell.
The thing I find most offensive about this recording, though, is the thumping drum, twhich seems to be louder than everything else put together. (Or is it just my speakers?)
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Thanks!
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by JosephC
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
This sort of fast and furious playing, clever though it is, always sounds to me like a 45 rpm record playing at 78 rpm. Eventually it disappears in a cloud of dust up the orifice of the player or the recorder. Take your pick
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Well, I think Benoit's playing, especially in Morrison's, is more to showcase what a recorder is capable of. And Micho Russell played the tin whistle, I doubt he would be anything on the recorder, just getting a decent tone out of a recorder is hard, and the fingerings aren't just up and down like on a whistle. Maybe I'm just slightly poisoned by Lunasa and Matt Molloy's solos that have made me enjoy the faster side of ITM more, but this reel set is nice to listen to slowed down too. By the way, I must mention, you all do know what it's like to play all the third octave E's he puts in? Or how to finger those notes (Not to get this into a bigger discussion about recorders and whistles again)?
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by JosephC
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
yep, your right.
Ive got nothing against speed , as long as the tune is understandable, the rhythm clear, but that just leaves me cold. Im sure technically his mastery of the instrument is good or great, but Its not really my 'cup of tea.' no offence meant.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
None taken
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by JosephC
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Bearing in mind that Irish traditional music is essentially descended from the music of the Baroque period it is interesting to read Stephen Preston's comment on the playing of Baroque wind music on modern instruments, which I think can also be pertinent to the playing of Irish traditional music and, incidentally, to the 'performance' that is the subject of this discussion :
"The most important question to ask yourself is the most simple. What is the usual word for 'making' music? Of course the answer is obvious: play. Then ask yourself how often does 'playing' feel more like 'work'? Unfortunately the answer is that all too often playing is really hard work. Sometimes the difficulty of a piece is an important element, but this isn't true of most Baroque wind music. On the contrary, it was composed to give delight and pleasure to both performer and listener.
Sadly, it's not uncommon to hear Baroque music played with great technical ability but in such a way that the musical meaning and enjoyment stay out of reach. The harder such performers work, the harder their work becomes - and they never catch the real music.
The solution is to learn to 'work' less and 'play' more. Develop insight and understanding of what the music was about, how it was played and what the Baroque version of your instrument was like."
The above extract is from "A Performer's Guide to Music of the Baroque Period", published by The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music". Stephen Preston, the writer of the chapter on wind instruments, has played a leading role in the early music movement in Britain and abroad, as a solo flautist and a leading member of professional Baroque ensembles. He has also extended his interest in historically informed performance to the field of dance.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The set of 3 tunes in that order are on Dubliner's 25 Years Celebration LP. I much prefer that.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by Jon Freeman
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Thanks for that, Trevor. Sage advice to keep in mind. I'm in awe of Benoit's technical virtuosity, but I wish that he would use his talents better. If he slowed down just a little and hit the beat at those key points a little better, it would be glorious. It doesn't make me feel secretly superior, to know I play the tune with more lift. It makes me feel sad that someone so much better than me just doesn't get it.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by fidkid
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Borrowed from above, quoting the quote ~
"Sadly, it's not uncommon to hear Baroque music played with great technical ability but in such a way that the musical meaning and enjoyment stay out of reach. The harder such performers work, the harder their work becomes - and they never catch the real music."
'great technical ability' in my mind includes an understanding of the music, not just being able to move your fingers quickly or your tongue. The linked to performance are arhythmic, danceless tripe. There isn't anything 'great' about what that recorder player EXECUTES... Pity the music as it is mangled to death, and I don't mean just the erratic 'speed'... I love good recorder music, this is just hogswill, sloppy, lifeless, beat to death. There is nothing 'dance' left in it, and an obvious lack of understanding and in my ears the sounds of someone out to prove something and willing to trample anything in their way to prove something, including the music... What they are trying to prove, I don't know. There was nothing in that mush that impressed me...
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Instead of taking my mind off my aching back, it amplified the pain...
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
absolute atrocious sh*te
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Still, this guy has obviously practiced his scales and arpeggios...
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by fidkid
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The recorder sounds quite good, although the tunes are a trifle fast. I played in Manchester for a number of years with a mate who used the recorder, and he was excellent.
The drum? Well, he/she is not playing the tune, he/she is playing a taught rhythm which takes no account of the speed. It is also that "top end" style I think it is called, and this is the thing I have been complaining about. Too many players imitate John Joe playing with Flook, which is great for Flook, but a waste of time for this recording, and that is why it sounds intrusive. It is not in time with the tune, an obvious drawback for a backing instrument whose primary purpose is to keep time.
I know many people love this type of drum playing, but not me, unless you are flexible with it, as John Joe is. Too many imitators are not.
But I do like the recorder.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Come on, BB, we already know he used you on that track.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Hmmm ... I didn't like it either, although I suppose the technical ability was ... well, it wasn't impressive, was it? Because the music just left me cold.
I know the Mullingar Races well, and, even though, after several listenings (am I particularly masochistic this morning?) I can just about hear that that is, in fact, the tune he's attempting to play, it just doesn't sound like the Mullingar Races to me. It doesn't have the right 'special bits' in to be that tune.
Personally, I didn't notice the drum. I was too busy being bombarded with the manic recorder playing.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I listened to it once. Then I deleted it from my computer.
This is a simple example of how 'speed kills'.
I may be just jealous since I don't play a wind instrument
and I can't play that fast on any instrument,
but I have noticed that this type of speed
offense happens more often on wind instruments than other instruments.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by halfwaythere
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Don,t forget they have two day,s racing at Mulingar.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by gooseinthenettles
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Reminds me a lot of tunes played by the Galician piper, flautist and whistler Carlos Núñez, he can move his fingers at the speed of light, but...
Fortunately, it seems he is learning he can use his skills in better ways.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: I know this guy's music making is as irritating as a tree full of Starlings, but ~
halfwaythere ~ "I have noticed that this type of speed offense happens more often on wind instruments than other instruments."
Well, it isn't limited to winds. Many winds have a wide dynamic range to pull from, except for reeds where there's no lip contact, such as with pipes, where the dynamic range can be limited. That dynamic range can be used to give landscape to the music, to help define the dance in a melody, the rhythm, the valleys, hills and mountains, to 'lift' it and breath life into it. To race through something, akin to bad session playing, is to level it like a roller laying down hot asphalt ~ "flat out!" That and this kind of abuse is closer to feedback than music...
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by ceolachan
There's no way I could 'hate' "this guy", or anyone else... Besides, I don't know him... But his music sucks!!!
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Maybe he is a good example of the results of earlier concerns?
Discussion: Blinded by technology ~ influences beyond our control!?
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by ceolachan
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16417
Discussion: The death of hi fidelity
# Posted on December 30th 2007 by dafydd
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16230
A wall of sound, rather than necessarily music, vandalism rather than art or tradition...
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Carlos has played with me, and that sorted him out. However without my steadying influence.......
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
It is not at dance tempo. (Tongue in cheque)
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by toumi
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Well, I'll admit I thought it was bloody awful. But the Northumbrian piper Billy Pigg, who was more or less arhythmic, could play bloody fast and all over the place time-wise and *still* sound magic nearly all the time, IMO. Maybe there's a distinct art to this. But not being accompanied by a clobberer on a drum-kit will have helped BP there.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
It's what Alvin & The Chipmunks would sound like if they started playing ITM.
(OK... I realize I just insulted the chipmunks... sorry.)
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
'This is a simple example of how 'speed kills'.' Sorry, all this proves is that just because you may be good at another type of music doesn't mean you can just decide you can play trad. That recording will do the guy no favors - to put it mildly. Bit a disaster really.
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by bogman
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I couldn't even listen past tne first tune. Exactly the wrong way to (try to) play trad music. Compare it to Kane -- or don't bother. There is no comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuHPu6lpgH4
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Gosh, that was nice, Danny!
[that means I'm happy because Kane has cheered me up - it does NOT mean I'm being sarcastic, as it seems to be used increasingly around here ... on other threads ... by other people ... oh god, stop digging ben ...]
Thanks for the link
# Posted on January 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
"Sorry, all this proves is that just because you may be good at another type of music doesn't mean you can just decide you can play trad."
~~~
You mean like that Yehudi McMenuhin fella?
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Cheers ben. And he's a great lad as well. Great sense of humour, young Kane has.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
No, not like the Yehudi McMenuhin guy
I meant it doesn't NECESSARILY mean you can just decide you can play trad.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by bogman
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
James Galway then?
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Galway plays a mean tin whistle, actually. no joke.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Sorry Key, I strongly disagree. It's awful! Yes, I've heard him, even in concert, and even with Matt Molloy in tow, and the Chieftains. Whatever mix you put him in his sad attempt at playing trad sticks out like broken glass to bare feet... It stinks!
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Actually, sorry, I meant to follow that with ~ It's 'bloody' awful, a 'pain'...
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ceolachan
He loves butchering "Sweeps" / "The Belfast Hornpipe" ~ one of his party pieces...
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Did you catch that continuance ~ 'butchering'?
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Well, I saw him once in concert many years ago (Galway, that is) playing those and I remember he sounded good...certainly better than the bloke this thread is meant to be featuring. All I can say is maybe that was back in the days when I didn't much about trad music, and so he sounded fine to me *then*......
.....but hmmm...maybe you're right.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAYXsFRlNs
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
..didn't KNOW much about trad music....
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I liked it better the first time, that element of mystery...
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
You did that on purpose. The camera work and Galway's whislin' has tied my gut in knots...
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I am not as quiet as that bodhran player, Phantom.
And, can anyone here play the recorder as well as the bloke on the tape?
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I've mastered the digital recorder.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I hope you're not suggesting, Jack, that Yehudi Menuhin actually *could* play anything other than classical? Those collaborations with Stephane Grapelli were pitiful. Menuhin was completely 'shown up' by the brilliance of Grapelli.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Oh, and I'm with ceolachan on Galway's attempts at trad on whistle, or flute for that matter.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The story I heard was that Frankie Gavin tried to instruct him on ITM fiddle at some performance where the two were playing, and the following year at the same event one of the old fellas there was overheard saying, "Where's that Yehudi McMenuhin fella?"
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
No BB I doubt we can play as well as yer man but thats hardly the point is it? Its all over the place, whether there is some technical mastery [or not] is hardly relevant, is it music?
As captain Kirk once said;'' I dont know what it is but its not ITM as we know it scotty'.
Ben, Have you Heard YM and Ravishankar? Those duets were not competitions you know! sure Stephane was the master, Yehudi readily admitted that, but thats hardy the point is it? its called playing music, that they did.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Bliss, I'm sure someone will eventually be able to invent a robot that could technically play better than that bloke. But could they invent a robot that could play with, eg, Kane's subtlety and feeling, and feel for the 'spirit' of the music? I doubt it somehow.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Yes, I did hear, a long time ago, YM and Ravi Shankar. Again, I thought he was just out of his depth. I know they weren't competitions, but, IMO, they weren't music either. YM was totally brilliant at what he was best at. He should have stuck to it.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I'm sure Yehudi Menuhin had a deep and abiding interest in jazz, folk music and Indian music, and would have liked to have played them well. But in his position he just didn't have the time to immerse himself in those musics as much as he would have wished.
Stephane Grappelli had the best of both worlds: he was self-taught as a fiddle player but later had a few years at the Paris Conservatoire.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
For the James Galway enthusiasts, watch his fixed grin of terror here as the music flies over his head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHcDY76a_eY&mode=related&search
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Menuhin put both of those players up on a very high pedestal and flat out said there was no way could approach their level of mastery. He considered himself a grateful guest. I wish I could remember the name of the book to reference. It was an interesting read.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by monkey440
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I'm interested in this idea - which has been much repeated - that Grappelli was 'self-taught'. He started, at the age of either 12 or 13, depending on who you believe, when his father, who was a violinist, taught him the basics, starting with scales, apparently (
).
As a young teenager, he worked as a pianist accompaying silent films, playing mainly Mozart.
He studied music at the Paris Conservatoire between the ages of 16 and 20. He apparently discovered jazz around this time, when he is reported to have said "Then I discovered jazz and my vocation and kissed Amadeus goodbye."
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
a classic example of how not to play Irish music.
too fast,and lack of phrasing.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Look, he is playing too fast, that's it. Most melody players do this. The reason for this is that they are too busy sneering at the bodhran players, instead of listening to them.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Its not the speed per se, its that he kind of loses the rhythm, the ornaments contribute to that. Listening back to it again,Id say that it is over ornamented and the tunes are not treated as complete melodies but as a vehicle's to display the performers 'skill'.
Its not particularly fast but much too full, giving the impression of breakneck speed. The ornaments detract from the rhythm and the tune rather than adding.
Well thats my take on it anyhow.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
He's not actually playing that fast. A fair lick, yes, but no faster than the standard Dublin session speed I encountered last time I was there.
I'd expect tune players, however, to think he's playing really fast, his awful tooty phrasing and complete lack of any notion of how the diddley bits go does make it sound faster than it is. I'm surprised, however, that the best drummer in the world hadn't spotted this.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Slightly slower playing, but with dead accurate rhythm and timing, would make it sound faster than it actually is. Seems counter-intuitive, but it's true. You acquire that accuracy by slow playing (and practice), not by going flat out with your fingers in an uncoordinated mess.
And, as some of us here have said, if it's too fast to dance to then it's too fast.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
The best bodhran player in the world was trying to humour melody players, and not appear to be too superior, by pointing out what is obvious to a drummer. I left that to your capable hands, Mr Llig.
Compared to our version of "The Ballydesmond Polkas" this recorder piece is a slow air.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
AAAAAGGGGHH, it's a god damn feckin nightmare.
I agree with the jig, but not you Trev.
Jig, He doesn't use the diddley bits that WE know (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there) just trills and toots, though I agree, the whole thing is for the benefit of showing off technical mastery. So, in a way, he succeeds in that he wants to show off that he can play fast and it actually sounds faster than it is.
Trev, I don't understand you, for once. Surely, dead accurate rhythm and timing would make it sound exactly as fast as it is? Skill of this music though is to make it sound easy. So you don't play dead accurate. That makes it sound dead. You oh so subtlety pull and push it so it relaxes. How many times have you listened to the best of diddley music, loved it, then got the fiddle out to learn it and been surprised at the lick of it?
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
I listened to the MP3 listed first above and came to the conclusion that either he was playing in a helium atmosphere or they had speeded up the Recorder track and added the sort of backing at a later date .
Its not speed its timing that is important .
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Its also soul that matters. the spirit.
the pinpoint accuracy that allows the music to breathe. 'Riding' on the tune . not being dragged allong behind with one foot in the stirrup!
In some ways I agree with trev though, its being 'on top' of the performance, if im allowed to use that word
I would, personally here one tune played 10 times well with variation lift, drive and spirit, than three tunes flashing past in a whirl of tricks and bells on it.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
Jaysus lads, it's only an oul tune!
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
hes playing spahetti junction.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
spaghetti junction,or possibly a typewriter.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: I know ya'll hate this guy, but what is he playing?
"....standard Dublin session speed ...."
Eh....what?
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Hugo Chavez