Hello,
I am having difficulty in setting up three titles to make a set. In past threads I read where it is advisable to change key in order to make the sound more interesting. Can anyone tell me the differences between A major, A minor, A dorian, and A mixolydian? Do the differences between these modes in the key of A remain constant in other keys? For instance, are the differences in E major, minor, dorian, and mixolydian the same? I am not a trained musician, and these terms have me a bit confused. Thanks for the help. Lowhistle
No biggie. Our western "ear" thinks in terms of major and minor keys (major are happy, minor are sad, etc. (this is a gross over-simplification)). A major and mixolydian are "major", while A minor and dorian are "minor". These differences apply no mather what key.
Each mode has its own personality. Mixolydian is "like" a seventh chord, i.e.: d-mix is like a D7 chord. It feels like it should resove to G; it has this unresolved tension inside it. With time you will hear these things, and you probably do already.
IMHO, Irish music "prefers" to be in dorian mode rather than a true minor key (i.e.: there are more tunes in e dorian than e minor).
The notes of A major are,
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A(octave)
A minor is,
A - B - C - D - E - F- G - A(octave)
A dorian is,
A - B - C - D - E - F# - G - A(octave)
A mixolydian is,
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G - A(octave)
A dorian has the notes of G major, but its start and finish is A. Similarly, A mixolydian has the notes of D major, but its start and finish is A.
The relative differences between E major, minor, dorian and mixolydian are the same too, so,
E major
E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D# - E
E minor
E - F# - G - A - B - C - D - E
E dorian
E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D - E (same notes as D major)
E mixolydian
E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D - E (same notes as A major)
Each mode has its own colour or feel. The dorian mode tends to have a "minor" feel, but not quite as "minor" as the minor mode. The mixolydian mode feels "major", but not quite as "major" as the major mode, but it is more "major" than the mixolydian mode. An easy way to hear and feel the differences between the modes is to play them on a music keyboard.
You may come across alternative names. The major mode is sometimes called the "ionian" mode, and the minor mode is sometimes called (some would say correctly) the "aeolian" mode.
The whole business of modes is very complex - it goes back to the ancient Greeks and the early Christian Church - and has doubtless provided fruitful source material for post-grad dissertations over the last century!
The modes you have mentioned are the ones that occur in more than 99% of Irish (and other celtic) trad music, but there are some rare ones - the phrygian, lydian and locrian modes which, frankly, sound weird and can have an unsettling effect on the listener and player. Mark Dow has experimented with tunes in these strange modes, but such modes aren't recommended for general session use unless you want to clear the pub!
If you want to see Mark Dow's experiments have a look at the tunes
Two Steps Up (#1537) - phrygian,
Major Konstant's (#1546) - lydian,
Triton's Trident (#1558) - locrian
The comments are instructive.
Trevor
Glauber & TM, thanks for the insight. That helps a lot. Now, can you mix the different modes in the same key in playing a set? Can you switch modes and keys in going from one piece to the next? Lowhistle
In addition to the modes, have a think about a tune in the pentatonic scale. The pentatonic scale is the major scale which is missing the 4th and the 7th, so it doesn't have any half-tones. T think this tends to make the tonal root of the tune slightly less obvious.
So, A pentatonic is: A - B - C# - E - F# - A(octave).
There are certainly some Irish tunes around which are pentatonic - or very nearly so - but for the life of me I can't think of one! (Can someone help out please?) The main thing with pentatonic tunes, if you have a guitar accompanying with chords make sure the guitarist knows how to handle pentatonic music. The chords should use *only* the notes that are in the pentatonic scale of the tune, otherwise the pentatonic effect will be ruined.
I don't think I'm ready to discuss mixing and switching modes and keys for sets; I'd prefer to leave that one to those who have more experience and skill.
I think there's probably more to selecting tunes for a set than just mixing 'n' matching modes and keys, although that itself is important.
A few ideas that have occured to me, things to bear in mind when selecting tunes:
1) Not all tunes of the same type have the same tempo; some tunes naturally play slower (or faster) than others.
2) Different tunes have different shapes (the rise and fall of the tune in each part).
3) Different tunes may have different levels and types of ornaments.
4) Each tune has its individual character.
5) A selection of tunes should build up to a climax.
6) The more #s a tune has the brighter it tends to sound. For instance, the key of A is particularly bright on the fiddle because of the resonances of the high A on the E string with the open A and an important harmonic on the D string. So it may be a good idea to finish a set with something in A.
I know, I know! I said I wouldn't discuss all this, but I thought I'd like to get these ideas down, even if I do get blown out of the water (all part of the learning experience), but I'm not going to suggest specific tunes.
Trevor
The Britches Full of Stitches is pentatonic, while the Walls of Liscarroll uses a 6 note "gapped" scale. In addition, many Irish tunes, such as Rakish Paddy and Banish Misfortune, will alternate between a major and minor sound within the same phrase. Others change keys or modes from the A part to the B part.
You can use the way modes interrelate to good effect when deciding what tunes to juxtapose within a set. Basically you can think of it in terms of the circle of 5ths. In the case of Irish music, it's more like a "line of 5ths" since only a few keys are used. In the line of 5ths, different modes with the same key signature are grouped together like this:
It's quite rare to find tunes in keys at the extreme ends of this "line", and even rarer to find tunes in keys outside it.
If you can teach yourself to imagine this line in your head, you can move around it in any direction at will. Basically, the way it works is: the further you jump along the line between the keys, the more striking your key change will be. This is why shifting from Gmaj to Amaj sounds really dramatic: you're moving 2 places along the line, and adding 2 more #'s into the key signature. If you want a smooth change between tunes and you want to avoid the dramatic effect, you should try moving between the modes of one key on the line. So say if you were playing in the key of 1#, you could do a set of tunes that goes Dmix - Gmaj - Emin. Because they're all in different modes of the same key, you're guaranteed a smooth change, and all you have to think about is whether the tunes start and end high or low, and how they merge into each other.
If you want a smooth key change, as opposed to mode change, try keeping the same fundamental (base note) but moving one step along the line. For example, start a set with a tune in Dmaj (2#'s), then move one step along the line and take out the C#, which would take you into Dmix, then for the last tune in the set, you have a choice whether or not to change key.
Having said all that, I must say I agree with "Treabhar" [when did you change your name?] when he says that messing about with key & mode changes isn't the only thing you have to think about. All the things in his list above are also every bit as important. The only thing I can think of to add to that list at the moment is no. 7) it's sometimes interesting to think about which area a tune is from when you're grouping them in sets, so you could have (say) a set of French Canadian tunes, or you could deliberately chuck an F.C. tune into an Irish set, and 8) look at the way tunes begin and end, i.e. whether the last few notes lead back into the beginning or into the next tune w/o a break, whether or not there's an anacrusis [is that the right term?], and, erm, stuff.
...and what about 9) think about genre of tune. They don't all have to be one type - it can be more interesting to do things like playing a reel after a hornpipe, jig or strathspey/highlandy type thing. I'd think about doing that more for band arrangements, though. It can be nice now and again to do in a session but if overdone it can unsettle people I think.
Wow! Great responses. I have tried to incorporate many of the ideas listed above, but always thought that I was either doing something wrong (because I did not understand the modes) or was missing a key element. This helps alot, particularly the idea of the line of 5ths. I liked that because it is so visual. Thank you again. Lowhistle
Mark,
I've been searching around for a while to change "Trevor" in my screen name to its Irish equivalent (like Danny and a few others do), and only recently found out what it was.
Trevor
If it sounds all right to you, the chances are, it is. There are no hard and fast rules - it's as much down to personal aesthetics as to tradition. Keep learning other people's sets - from sessions and records - and you'll develop a feel for what makes certain tunes compatible. But you only have to listen to a few recordings of traditional music to realise that what works for one musician does not necessarily work for another. Everyone hears tunes differently, and tunes which, to one musician, obviously complement each other, it may never have occured to another musician to place together in a set.
As for different tune forms in one set, the norm in sessions seems to be to play sets of only one tune type. But in solo performance, combinations such as a slow air followed by a dance tune based on the same air (often a set dance) are not uncommon. Recording bands such as The Chieftains, The Bothy Band and Altan have done much to popularise multiple tune-type sets, and this has filtered through into session playing. Some older musicans, who have escaped some of the influence of ceilidh bands and the recording industry, almost always play tunes singly, rather in sets. This is still common for tunes with many parts, especially those from the piping repertoire.
See OK, don't know why I didn't read all this yesterday, before I totally botched my posting of Molly Ban, which I posted in Em instead of Edor. It sounds a heckuva lot like Cooley's (after I transposed it from Gmaj I think), which I always learned in Em, but apparently, since it needs 2 sharps, it should be Edorian.
Why then, can someone explain to me why, in this widely published book of tunes, there are several reels ie Cooley's, Drowsey Maggie, Cup of Tea, Morning Dew, Pigeon on the Gate, Roscommon, Ships are Sailing, etc all of which state they are in Em, with 2 (TWO) sharps, not in Edorian. Then there are other reels in the same book, ie Dunmore Lasses, Fermoy Lassies, etc, which only have one sharp & say they are also in Em. What up??
Strictly speaking, they're wrong. E minor only has 1 sharp. If there are 2 sharps in the scale, it's E dorian, and should be listed as such, because it is a completely different key from E minor, and it's related to D major rather than G major. The problem is that some tunebooks don't talk about modes like the dorian, and they think it's simpler for people to talk in terms of major and minor. As you can see, it only confuses people more.
The other confusing aspect of this is that it's sort of acceptable to write these tunes as E minor and actually transcribe the extra C# into the ABC/sheetmusic as an accidental in order to draw extra attention to it. Likewise, there are plenty tunes that contain elements of both the minor and dorian, so in other words they contain both C nats and C sharps. In this case, it's up to the transcriber to decide which mode to choose, and therefore which of the C's have to have an accidental before them.
I hope that's not too garbled. Basically you're right and they're silly and confusing.
It doesn't help much that on the accompanying CD, just before each tune, he'll announce, "Cooley's Reel, Key of Eminor" or what have you, when you're looking right at the book & there's 2 bloody sharps in the key signature. Talk about negative reinforcement.
Thank you Dubg. I feel slightly less cranky. But only slightly.
I think one of the reasons we tend to refer to E dorian and E minor tunes as 'E minor' is that the only relevance that music theory has to many players is in terms of being able to tell a potential accompaniest what chords to play, and I guess Em chords are a good starting point for both scales. As far as worrying about what tunes go with which(?), and whether tunes should vary mode/scale within themselves, surely you should follow your ears, not a set of rules. If you take a modal tune like 'Gander in the Pratie Hole' for example, messing around with the scale (in reality switching between C and Csharp), is a nice way of adding some variation, but probably doesn't warrent too much theoretical analysis....
Some tunes meander from one mode to another and back again, and sometimes it's not at all obvious what the modal/key basis (if any) of the tune is. I wonder if there's something to be said, at any rate as far as beginners are concerned, for announcing that a tune is in 2 sharps, or 1 sharp, etc without mentioning the key or mode. I think this could work in a session environment.
Trevor
next points are
10) Good sets tend to raise the main notes from tune to tune.
11) Very good (and long) sets will not continousely build up power, but there will be more peaceful moments in between i.e. there is the full band playing and the next tune starts with the whisle only. I would call it sawtooth arrangements, you can build up very long party like live pieces.
and starting on D and going up the white notes we get
DORIAN
PHRYGIAN
LYDIAN
MIXOLYDIAN and
AEOLIAN
He said the Ionian and Locrian modes were "Bastard modes" so were not really relevant. (For those interested) The Ionian was not known to the Greeks and the Locrian is only a theoretical mode without a "perfect" fifth. The "Hypo" or plagal modes are also ignored in this mnemonic.
Ottery, I agree that you should follow your ears, but there are definite rules behind it all, and I don't think that following that up and learning the theory behind it necessarily hampers the making of good music, just because we like to think that trad is handed down in a sort of natural, mysterious process. The "switching" that you talk about is for me one of the most intriguing aspects of trad music, and I think that noticing what's going on and learning how it works and why can improve listening and playing skills. I guess on the other hand it could also blinker you and make you get stuck in a rut, so I completely see your point...
Treabhar, I agree that a lot of the time it is unclear what mode a tune is in, and this is another thing that I find really interesting about trad. I also agree that with trad music there is a very strong case for talking in terms of e.g. "the key of 1#" instead of "the key of E minor" or "the key of G major". The fixation with major and minor as you know comes from the theoretical analysis of classical music, and with trad this kind of analysis simply doesn't tell the whole story. It's like trying to make a square fit into a circle, or whatever the expression is.
Urs, I'm intrigued by your comment number 10, and not quite sure what you mean. If you mean that you'd go up from D to G, couldn't you also say that you'd gone *down* a 5th to G? I think I've probably totally misunderstood what you've said... Can you explain?
...And another thought occurs to me with respect to what Ottery and Trevor have said: I think that talking about "the key of 1#" in the context of some sort of analysis is fine, but like Ottery says, it's more useful for a backer in a session if someone shouts "E MINOR", coz then at least you can slam onto a chord that will sound right, and then you can work out what to do next by ear
[by the way I'd like to make a formal appeal now for more tune players to call keys like this - backers will love you for it and it helps to keep the set going smoothly - please ]
...whereas on the other hand if some tune player shouted "1#!" to me, I wouldn't know whether to expect G major, A dorian or what. I could potentially back with chords that I found sounded acceptable until the 2nd part came up, whereupon I would realise that I'd been completely in the wrong mode
I'm not dissing anyone who wants to know the theory behind the music, and I don't think there is is anything mysterious or magical behind the passing on of this tradition. But I do think it is a a 'natural process', in that the way the body of music came about was through people with no formal knowledge of music theory hearing and understanding modes and scales and using them to create music. I just worry that people with no musical training will see a thread like this with lists of Lydians Phridians Spiddians and Mixamatosis and just go "eek!" and switch off.
I think that more worrying than people with no musical training going EEEK and switching off would be those with some musical training thinking that if they can follow this thread, then they know diddly.
Like Keanu Reeves in the Matrix when his eyes flutter and he is able to pronounce, "I know kung fu"
Just a quick note on combining tunes in sets: traditionally there there are 2 ways of doing it:
(1) tunes that sound alike
(2) tunes that contrast
and you normally see some of each in a session. So as you see, the rules give you a lot of space. If it sounds right, then it's ok.
The only modes (other than the major/jonian and minor/aeolian) used in Irish music are dorian and mixolydian. Dorian is a cool minor mode, very useful, and i think it's actually more common in Irish music than the true minor keys. Mixolydian is for weird tunes that have internal tension, like "The Old Bush" and "Banish Misfortune". Mixolydian tunes sound "ancient" to me.
In my old band, as I was telling Will, we had a running joke, where if we'd take a request or something, I'd ask the fiddle player what key is this in, & he'd show me 1, 2 or 3 fingers like a catcher in American baseball indicating to the pitcher if he wants a fastball, sinker or changeup.
It was almost always our backer who picked the key (or mode) in those circumstances. As a melody player, it makes me more aware of that oversimplification, & how not to take a good backer for granted. On the other hand, I can't think of a single backer, well maybe one or two, besides Dow, who would know what to do if I yelled "E dorian!"
Glauber, I'm not sure how true it is to say that your method is traditional, when you consider what David said earlier about older players who play tunes singly. I think that it doesn't matter so much for sessions, but for bands or people who want to perform, there's a knack to putting together tunes that would "work". If you can do this purely by ear and feel alone, then great, but it's worth recognising that there are tools and shortcuts available to make it easier. Something like the line of 5ths is useful precisely because it *isn't* limiting. With it you can describe any key or mode change used in Irish music on the one hand, and you can also use it as a tool to get ideas for putting together your own sets.
Back in the day, when church music was at its height, the Ionian mode (major) was banned. Apparently the mode lent itself easily to songs of drunkenness and debauchery and musical scholars were worried that it would lead to impure thoughts.
I'm quite fond of mixolydian, myself. I feel that it gives a nice bit of salt to the tune. Or just playing a major tune, and every now and then flattening the seventh. Yum.
When Andre Previn was contracted film music composer in Holywood, he was banned by the studio bosses from writing anything in a minor key. Too depressing
My rule 10) Good sets tend to raise the main notes from tune to tune
is not very clear I'm afraid. What I mean is that the melody lines should be at a higher pitch. This does not mean necessarily the mode note is higher.
The reason for this is the fact higher and shriller notes will be heard better and make more tension and higher 'energy'.
[OT Some say that's an argument for a matriarchat society some thousand years ago - if woman where the leaders they needed the voices easy to hear.]
I sometimes try to make new settings around one 'new' tune by searching the tune before or after with the help of my pure mode knowledge and some of these rules. Most of the tunes I found like that are the absolutely wrong ones, but these procedure might shorten the search time.
Another method is to play on a few notes after the tune to find out how the next one can start and than I search for tunes whith thi start. That's a IT based method when practiced with the help of an abc tune finder.
On the internet it is easy to google the name of a tune and to find out what other people might have combined - sometimes great ideas, sometimes not at all!
Modes
Modes
Hello,
I am having difficulty in setting up three titles to make a set. In past threads I read where it is advisable to change key in order to make the sound more interesting. Can anyone tell me the differences between A major, A minor, A dorian, and A mixolydian? Do the differences between these modes in the key of A remain constant in other keys? For instance, are the differences in E major, minor, dorian, and mixolydian the same? I am not a trained musician, and these terms have me a bit confused. Thanks for the help. Lowhistle
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by LoWhistle
Re: Modes
No biggie. Our western "ear" thinks in terms of major and minor keys (major are happy, minor are sad, etc. (this is a gross over-simplification)). A major and mixolydian are "major", while A minor and dorian are "minor". These differences apply no mather what key.
Each mode has its own personality. Mixolydian is "like" a seventh chord, i.e.: d-mix is like a D7 chord. It feels like it should resove to G; it has this unresolved tension inside it. With time you will hear these things, and you probably do already.
IMHO, Irish music "prefers" to be in dorian mode rather than a true minor key (i.e.: there are more tunes in e dorian than e minor).
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by glauber
Re: Modes
The notes of A major are,
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A(octave)
A minor is,
A - B - C - D - E - F- G - A(octave)
A dorian is,
A - B - C - D - E - F# - G - A(octave)
A mixolydian is,
A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G - A(octave)
A dorian has the notes of G major, but its start and finish is A. Similarly, A mixolydian has the notes of D major, but its start and finish is A.
The relative differences between E major, minor, dorian and mixolydian are the same too, so,
E major
E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D# - E
E minor
E - F# - G - A - B - C - D - E
E dorian
E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D - E (same notes as D major)
E mixolydian
E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D - E (same notes as A major)
Each mode has its own colour or feel. The dorian mode tends to have a "minor" feel, but not quite as "minor" as the minor mode. The mixolydian mode feels "major", but not quite as "major" as the major mode, but it is more "major" than the mixolydian mode. An easy way to hear and feel the differences between the modes is to play them on a music keyboard.
You may come across alternative names. The major mode is sometimes called the "ionian" mode, and the minor mode is sometimes called (some would say correctly) the "aeolian" mode.
The whole business of modes is very complex - it goes back to the ancient Greeks and the early Christian Church - and has doubtless provided fruitful source material for post-grad dissertations over the last century!
The modes you have mentioned are the ones that occur in more than 99% of Irish (and other celtic) trad music, but there are some rare ones - the phrygian, lydian and locrian modes which, frankly, sound weird and can have an unsettling effect on the listener and player. Mark Dow has experimented with tunes in these strange modes, but such modes aren't recommended for general session use unless you want to clear the pub!
If you want to see Mark Dow's experiments have a look at the tunes
Two Steps Up (#1537) - phrygian,
Major Konstant's (#1546) - lydian,
Triton's Trident (#1558) - locrian
The comments are instructive.
Trevor
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modes
Sorry about the typo in the 4th para of my post.
I should have typed that the mixolydian mode has a more major feel than the dorian mode.
Trevor
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modes
Glauber & TM, thanks for the insight. That helps a lot. Now, can you mix the different modes in the same key in playing a set? Can you switch modes and keys in going from one piece to the next? Lowhistle
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by LoWhistle
Re: Modes
In addition to the modes, have a think about a tune in the pentatonic scale. The pentatonic scale is the major scale which is missing the 4th and the 7th, so it doesn't have any half-tones. T think this tends to make the tonal root of the tune slightly less obvious.
So, A pentatonic is: A - B - C# - E - F# - A(octave).
There are certainly some Irish tunes around which are pentatonic - or very nearly so - but for the life of me I can't think of one! (Can someone help out please?) The main thing with pentatonic tunes, if you have a guitar accompanying with chords make sure the guitarist knows how to handle pentatonic music. The chords should use *only* the notes that are in the pentatonic scale of the tune, otherwise the pentatonic effect will be ruined.
I don't think I'm ready to discuss mixing and switching modes and keys for sets; I'd prefer to leave that one to those who have more experience and skill.
Trevor
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modes
I think there's probably more to selecting tunes for a set than just mixing 'n' matching modes and keys, although that itself is important.
A few ideas that have occured to me, things to bear in mind when selecting tunes:
1) Not all tunes of the same type have the same tempo; some tunes naturally play slower (or faster) than others.
2) Different tunes have different shapes (the rise and fall of the tune in each part).
3) Different tunes may have different levels and types of ornaments.
4) Each tune has its individual character.
5) A selection of tunes should build up to a climax.
6) The more #s a tune has the brighter it tends to sound. For instance, the key of A is particularly bright on the fiddle because of the resonances of the high A on the E string with the open A and an important harmonic on the D string. So it may be a good idea to finish a set with something in A.
I know, I know! I said I wouldn't discuss all this, but I thought I'd like to get these ideas down, even if I do get blown out of the water (all part of the learning experience), but I'm not going to suggest specific tunes.
Trevor
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modes
The Britches Full of Stitches is pentatonic, while the Walls of Liscarroll uses a 6 note "gapped" scale. In addition, many Irish tunes, such as Rakish Paddy and Banish Misfortune, will alternate between a major and minor sound within the same phrase. Others change keys or modes from the A part to the B part.
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by russellrapport
Re: Modes
You can use the way modes interrelate to good effect when deciding what tunes to juxtapose within a set. Basically you can think of it in terms of the circle of 5ths. In the case of Irish music, it's more like a "line of 5ths" since only a few keys are used. In the line of 5ths, different modes with the same key signature are grouped together like this:
2b - 1b - 0#/b - 1# - 2# - 3# - 4#
2b = Gmin
1b = Fmaj, Gdor, Dmin
0b/# = Cmaj, Ddor, Gmix, Amin
1# = Gmaj, Ador, Dmix, Emin
2# = Dmaj, Edor, Amix, Bmin
3# = Amaj, Bdor, Emix, F#min
4# = Emaj, Bmix
It's quite rare to find tunes in keys at the extreme ends of this "line", and even rarer to find tunes in keys outside it.
If you can teach yourself to imagine this line in your head, you can move around it in any direction at will. Basically, the way it works is: the further you jump along the line between the keys, the more striking your key change will be. This is why shifting from Gmaj to Amaj sounds really dramatic: you're moving 2 places along the line, and adding 2 more #'s into the key signature. If you want a smooth change between tunes and you want to avoid the dramatic effect, you should try moving between the modes of one key on the line. So say if you were playing in the key of 1#, you could do a set of tunes that goes Dmix - Gmaj - Emin. Because they're all in different modes of the same key, you're guaranteed a smooth change, and all you have to think about is whether the tunes start and end high or low, and how they merge into each other.
If you want a smooth key change, as opposed to mode change, try keeping the same fundamental (base note) but moving one step along the line. For example, start a set with a tune in Dmaj (2#'s), then move one step along the line and take out the C#, which would take you into Dmix, then for the last tune in the set, you have a choice whether or not to change key.
Hope that makes sense.
Dow
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modes
Having said all that, I must say I agree with "Treabhar" [when did you change your name?] when he says that messing about with key & mode changes isn't the only thing you have to think about. All the things in his list above are also every bit as important. The only thing I can think of to add to that list at the moment is no. 7) it's sometimes interesting to think about which area a tune is from when you're grouping them in sets, so you could have (say) a set of French Canadian tunes, or you could deliberately chuck an F.C. tune into an Irish set, and 8) look at the way tunes begin and end, i.e. whether the last few notes lead back into the beginning or into the next tune w/o a break, whether or not there's an anacrusis [is that the right term?], and, erm, stuff.
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by Dr. Dow
...and what about 9) think about genre of tune. They don't all have to be one type - it can be more interesting to do things like playing a reel after a hornpipe, jig or strathspey/highlandy type thing. I'd think about doing that more for band arrangements, though. It can be nice now and again to do in a session but if overdone it can unsettle people I think.
# Posted on May 3rd 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modes
Wow! Great responses. I have tried to incorporate many of the ideas listed above, but always thought that I was either doing something wrong (because I did not understand the modes) or was missing a key element. This helps alot, particularly the idea of the line of 5ths. I liked that because it is so visual. Thank you again. Lowhistle
# Posted on May 4th 2003 by LoWhistle
Re: Modes
Mark,
I've been searching around for a while to change "Trevor" in my screen name to its Irish equivalent (like Danny and a few others do), and only recently found out what it was.
Trevor
# Posted on May 4th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modes
Another version of Dow is "Dubg" apparently. Maybe I'll stick with Dow.
# Posted on May 4th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modes
Lowhistle,
If it sounds all right to you, the chances are, it is. There are no hard and fast rules - it's as much down to personal aesthetics as to tradition. Keep learning other people's sets - from sessions and records - and you'll develop a feel for what makes certain tunes compatible. But you only have to listen to a few recordings of traditional music to realise that what works for one musician does not necessarily work for another. Everyone hears tunes differently, and tunes which, to one musician, obviously complement each other, it may never have occured to another musician to place together in a set.
As for different tune forms in one set, the norm in sessions seems to be to play sets of only one tune type. But in solo performance, combinations such as a slow air followed by a dance tune based on the same air (often a set dance) are not uncommon. Recording bands such as The Chieftains, The Bothy Band and Altan have done much to popularise multiple tune-type sets, and this has filtered through into session playing. Some older musicans, who have escaped some of the influence of ceilidh bands and the recording industry, almost always play tunes singly, rather in sets. This is still common for tunes with many parts, especially those from the piping repertoire.
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Modes
See OK, don't know why I didn't read all this yesterday, before I totally botched my posting of Molly Ban, which I posted in Em instead of Edor. It sounds a heckuva lot like Cooley's (after I transposed it from Gmaj I think), which I always learned in Em, but apparently, since it needs 2 sharps, it should be Edorian.
Why then, can someone explain to me why, in this widely published book of tunes, there are several reels ie Cooley's, Drowsey Maggie, Cup of Tea, Morning Dew, Pigeon on the Gate, Roscommon, Ships are Sailing, etc all of which state they are in Em, with 2 (TWO) sharps, not in Edorian. Then there are other reels in the same book, ie Dunmore Lasses, Fermoy Lassies, etc, which only have one sharp & say they are also in Em. What up??
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Modes
Strictly speaking, they're wrong. E minor only has 1 sharp. If there are 2 sharps in the scale, it's E dorian, and should be listed as such, because it is a completely different key from E minor, and it's related to D major rather than G major. The problem is that some tunebooks don't talk about modes like the dorian, and they think it's simpler for people to talk in terms of major and minor. As you can see, it only confuses people more.
The other confusing aspect of this is that it's sort of acceptable to write these tunes as E minor and actually transcribe the extra C# into the ABC/sheetmusic as an accidental in order to draw extra attention to it. Likewise, there are plenty tunes that contain elements of both the minor and dorian, so in other words they contain both C nats and C sharps. In this case, it's up to the transcriber to decide which mode to choose, and therefore which of the C's have to have an accidental before them.
I hope that's not too garbled. Basically you're right and they're silly and confusing.
Dow
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modes
It doesn't help much that on the accompanying CD, just before each tune, he'll announce, "Cooley's Reel, Key of Eminor" or what have you, when you're looking right at the book & there's 2 bloody sharps in the key signature. Talk about negative reinforcement.
Thank you Dubg. I feel slightly less cranky. But only slightly.
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Modes
I think one of the reasons we tend to refer to E dorian and E minor tunes as 'E minor' is that the only relevance that music theory has to many players is in terms of being able to tell a potential accompaniest what chords to play, and I guess Em chords are a good starting point for both scales. As far as worrying about what tunes go with which(?), and whether tunes should vary mode/scale within themselves, surely you should follow your ears, not a set of rules. If you take a modal tune like 'Gander in the Pratie Hole' for example, messing around with the scale (in reality switching between C and Csharp), is a nice way of adding some variation, but probably doesn't warrent too much theoretical analysis....
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Modes
Some tunes meander from one mode to another and back again, and sometimes it's not at all obvious what the modal/key basis (if any) of the tune is. I wonder if there's something to be said, at any rate as far as beginners are concerned, for announcing that a tune is in 2 sharps, or 1 sharp, etc without mentioning the key or mode. I think this could work in a session environment.
Trevor
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modes
next points are
10) Good sets tend to raise the main notes from tune to tune.
11) Very good (and long) sets will not continousely build up power, but there will be more peaceful moments in between i.e. there is the full band playing and the next tune starts with the whisle only. I would call it sawtooth arrangements, you can build up very long party like live pieces.
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by swisspiper
Re: Modes Mnemonic
My theory teacher taught me to remember
DiPLoMA
and starting on D and going up the white notes we get
DORIAN
PHRYGIAN
LYDIAN
MIXOLYDIAN and
AEOLIAN
He said the Ionian and Locrian modes were "Bastard modes" so were not really relevant. (For those interested) The Ionian was not known to the Greeks and the Locrian is only a theoretical mode without a "perfect" fifth. The "Hypo" or plagal modes are also ignored in this mnemonic.
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Modes
Ottery, I agree that you should follow your ears, but there are definite rules behind it all, and I don't think that following that up and learning the theory behind it necessarily hampers the making of good music, just because we like to think that trad is handed down in a sort of natural, mysterious process. The "switching" that you talk about is for me one of the most intriguing aspects of trad music, and I think that noticing what's going on and learning how it works and why can improve listening and playing skills. I guess on the other hand it could also blinker you and make you get stuck in a rut, so I completely see your point...
Treabhar, I agree that a lot of the time it is unclear what mode a tune is in, and this is another thing that I find really interesting about trad. I also agree that with trad music there is a very strong case for talking in terms of e.g. "the key of 1#" instead of "the key of E minor" or "the key of G major". The fixation with major and minor as you know comes from the theoretical analysis of classical music, and with trad this kind of analysis simply doesn't tell the whole story. It's like trying to make a square fit into a circle, or whatever the expression is.
Urs, I'm intrigued by your comment number 10, and not quite sure what you mean. If you mean that you'd go up from D to G, couldn't you also say that you'd gone *down* a 5th to G? I think I've probably totally misunderstood what you've said... Can you explain?
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modes
...And another thought occurs to me with respect to what Ottery and Trevor have said: I think that talking about "the key of 1#" in the context of some sort of analysis is fine, but like Ottery says, it's more useful for a backer in a session if someone shouts "E MINOR", coz then at least you can slam onto a chord that will sound right, and then you can work out what to do next by ear
]
[by the way I'd like to make a formal appeal now for more tune players to call keys like this - backers will love you for it and it helps to keep the set going smoothly - please
...whereas on the other hand if some tune player shouted "1#!" to me, I wouldn't know whether to expect G major, A dorian or what. I could potentially back with chords that I found sounded acceptable until the 2nd part came up, whereupon I would realise that I'd been completely in the wrong mode
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modes
I'm not dissing anyone who wants to know the theory behind the music, and I don't think there is is anything mysterious or magical behind the passing on of this tradition. But I do think it is a a 'natural process', in that the way the body of music came about was through people with no formal knowledge of music theory hearing and understanding modes and scales and using them to create music. I just worry that people with no musical training will see a thread like this with lists of Lydians Phridians Spiddians and Mixamatosis and just go "eek!" and switch off.
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Modes
Yeah
# Posted on May 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modes
I think that more worrying than people with no musical training going EEEK and switching off would be those with some musical training thinking that if they can follow this thread, then they know diddly.
Like Keanu Reeves in the Matrix when his eyes flutter and he is able to pronounce, "I know kung fu"
# Posted on May 6th 2003 by ...
There is no spoon
Just a quick note on combining tunes in sets: traditionally there there are 2 ways of doing it:
(1) tunes that sound alike
(2) tunes that contrast
and you normally see some of each in a session. So as you see, the rules give you a lot of space. If it sounds right, then it's ok.
The only modes (other than the major/jonian and minor/aeolian) used in Irish music are dorian and mixolydian. Dorian is a cool minor mode, very useful, and i think it's actually more common in Irish music than the true minor keys. Mixolydian is for weird tunes that have internal tension, like "The Old Bush" and "Banish Misfortune". Mixolydian tunes sound "ancient" to me.
g
# Posted on May 6th 2003 by glauber
Re: Modes
In my old band, as I was telling Will, we had a running joke, where if we'd take a request or something, I'd ask the fiddle player what key is this in, & he'd show me 1, 2 or 3 fingers like a catcher in American baseball indicating to the pitcher if he wants a fastball, sinker or changeup.
It was almost always our backer who picked the key (or mode) in those circumstances. As a melody player, it makes me more aware of that oversimplification, & how not to take a good backer for granted. On the other hand, I can't think of a single backer, well maybe one or two, besides Dow, who would know what to do if I yelled "E dorian!"
# Posted on May 6th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Modes
Glauber, I'm not sure how true it is to say that your method is traditional, when you consider what David said earlier about older players who play tunes singly. I think that it doesn't matter so much for sessions, but for bands or people who want to perform, there's a knack to putting together tunes that would "work". If you can do this purely by ear and feel alone, then great, but it's worth recognising that there are tools and shortcuts available to make it easier. Something like the line of 5ths is useful precisely because it *isn't* limiting. With it you can describe any key or mode change used in Irish music on the one hand, and you can also use it as a tool to get ideas for putting together your own sets.
Dubg
# Posted on May 6th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modes
Interesting Historical Fact
Back in the day, when church music was at its height, the Ionian mode (major) was banned. Apparently the mode lent itself easily to songs of drunkenness and debauchery and musical scholars were worried that it would lead to impure thoughts.
I'm quite fond of mixolydian, myself. I feel that it gives a nice bit of salt to the tune. Or just playing a major tune, and every now and then flattening the seventh. Yum.
Cat
# Posted on May 7th 2003 by cat
Re: Modes
Another interesting 'istorical fact.
When Andre Previn was contracted film music composer in Holywood, he was banned by the studio bosses from writing anything in a minor key. Too depressing
# Posted on May 7th 2003 by ...
Re: Modes
Have you heard his "Lament for Soon-Yi?" Guess that won't go into any of Woody's flicks, b/c boy, is it mournful.
# Posted on May 8th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Modes
My rule 10) Good sets tend to raise the main notes from tune to tune
is not very clear I'm afraid. What I mean is that the melody lines should be at a higher pitch. This does not mean necessarily the mode note is higher.
The reason for this is the fact higher and shriller notes will be heard better and make more tension and higher 'energy'.
[OT Some say that's an argument for a matriarchat society some thousand years ago - if woman where the leaders they needed the voices easy to hear.]
I sometimes try to make new settings around one 'new' tune by searching the tune before or after with the help of my pure mode knowledge and some of these rules. Most of the tunes I found like that are the absolutely wrong ones, but these procedure might shorten the search time.
Another method is to play on a few notes after the tune to find out how the next one can start and than I search for tunes whith thi start. That's a IT based method when practiced with the help of an abc tune finder.
On the internet it is easy to google the name of a tune and to find out what other people might have combined - sometimes great ideas, sometimes not at all!
# Posted on May 11th 2003 by swisspiper