I know that the question of size comes up from time to time and people have a stab at deciding on the optimum number of musicians for an ideal session. From memory I think the consensus was that it all depends on the ability of the musicians and their preparedness to work together. Today's clip from the Comhaltas site at http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_236_3_reels_from_all_the_scoil_eigse_tutors/ backs up this view as there must be more than 40 musicians playing together and I think that the result is quite impressive.
This lot sound great , of course they are all very experienced musicians, used to listening and keeping in time with a group. They also have the advantage of a quiet and attentive audience. With a very large session in a noisy pub, problems can occur when people can't hear each other properly due to all the background noise. I've sometime been in a situation where people on one side of me have gone out of time with people on the other side of the session, but clearly can't hear that this has happened, annoying if you're stuck in the middle!
Full of Christmas cheer and seasonal goodwill, I see, are we michael?
Right enough, shame about the whistle, or piccollo, but never mind. Don't focus on it. (We had a couple of punters trying out spoons last night, and it took considerable effort to keep thinking on the beat of the tune, but we managed. Just Zenned-out the out of cadence din.) Some of them don't look like they're enjoying themselves, but the joy is expressed in the music.
I know what you mean, just zen it out, I sometimes find myself having to do that, especially bodhrans. A smoke helps.
But it kind of defeats the object. You know, you want to play with people, you want to listen, you want to hear. And if half of what you are hearing is a bloody din, and the other half might well be quite good, but you can't hear it anyway.
It would have been nice to see a smile or two as well I agree with KML, a session is good music and good fun in my book as I have often had to tell my Gf's size isnt everything .
could'nt agree with you more Llig. and I dont say that often! whats the point?
I much rather a small session, where you can hear and relate to each other.
Exactly - that's why you have to practice the art of Zenning out the dross. And like anything that requires practice it also requires concentration, before it gets any easier.
Hey, this hijack deserves a discussion on its own!
It's funny as when I first seen the post "Suggestions for a one row" I thought this might referred to one last good row (fight) before the year ends - I immediately thought of posting something on the lines that "written music is always more accurate than the stuff you hear at sessions" to test Michael's reaction but this post seems to suffice!
I wasn't trying to suggest that this would be my favourite type of session (it's better to get more interaction between the musicians in an intimate setting, etc) but it just proves the point that size doesn't interfere with the music if everyone knows what they're doing.
As for smiles, remember that this was taking place at 12 mid-day, there was no bar and in any case I wouldn't like to play a session with 500 attentive listeners - I think the musicians were enjoying themselves nevertheless.
Nah, just play a louder instrument , blast out the dross!joke.
I have to say though that i would rather stay at home than have to ignore some out of tuner. Honestly, I consider my self one part of the sound. I have no desire to be part of a bad sound, If it doesnt sound good then the session 'aint big enough for the both of us' if you get my point.
I take pride in what i do, if i dont enjoy listening to the 'music' we make then I am not interested in being part of it.......
Absolutely Bannerman, the size is not an issue that cannot be surmounted......... though i cant see trad players accepting a conductor! joke!
Smiles. Interesting point, its a shame but the more pressure there is on the musicians, the more serious it gets.
I know if I could hear someone was out of tune I doubt I would'nt be smiling.
But Its really down to the tone set by the anchor'person'[s] as to whether its a laugh or a 'serious' session, this doesnt relate to the quality of the music at all.
Oh yes it is. It doesn't take much to get me out for a tune but I can't be bothered with big sessions. What's the point? - unless you want to hide and pretend to be good. About a dozen is the limit of tolerance. Just a big slushy mess IMO.
There's a time and a place for everything and there's definitely something magical about those mega-sessions that sometimes spring up at festivals or fleadhanna cheoil where the larger number of musicians in full spate can create that elusive electricity. Even if it were possible to replicate this at the more regular normal sessions, I don't think any of us would want to.
For a big session, it's best to have a dominant player or two as leader. Keeps things in tune and time! It can sound great. Love the small fireside home sessions though!
10 -12 is indeed the practical limit if you want eye contact between the musicians in a conductorless ensemble. Lose that eye contact and you'll soon get that "big slushy mess", as Bogman so aptly put it.
If you have much more than that playing - really playing, not keeping a low profile as the less experienced wisely tend to do - then you need a focal point. Whether you call it a conductor, director, or leader isn't important - that person's role is to keep things together. In a session he obviously wouldn't use a conductor's baton, he'd use body language, probably quite unconsciously, and eye contact with individual players as necessary.
Obviously a conductor in trad is not an option but if you keep your strong musicians/instruments at the centre of the session, then this solves the problem of keeping everyone together.
I prefer small sessions too - who doesn't? But sometimes it's nice to be part of something big. Like Bannerman says, it can be magical. It's not an either/or , all/nothing, question, is it?
And at least you could tell what tune they were playing in the first clip. By that criterion, it's a success.
Big sessions! AAAagh. Ive sat in some of these where one end changes the tune and the other end does'nt! Chaos. Where the two ends get out of sync! This is where you need a strong rhythm player sitting next to a couple of loud tune-players.
I do like a large-ish session, 7-8 is plenty. It means as a rhythm guitarist I can let go and actually use the full dynamic range of my instrument.
Its not so much the numbers but rather hether people are 'on the ball', actually listening in a pro-activ way, not just referenceing every few miniutes , but really in touch with the ebb and flow. Active listening, useing eye's and ears, and even a bit of ESP!
What do you'se reckon? The psycology of a group activity, tuneing in to the group-mind.
A Session is Never Too Big ??
A Session is Never Too Big ??
I know that the question of size comes up from time to time and people have a stab at deciding on the optimum number of musicians for an ideal session. From memory I think the consensus was that it all depends on the ability of the musicians and their preparedness to work together. Today's clip from the Comhaltas site at http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_236_3_reels_from_all_the_scoil_eigse_tutors/ backs up this view as there must be more than 40 musicians playing together and I think that the result is quite impressive.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Really great- apart from that annoying thumping in the background- the bodhran tutors trying to get out of the broom cupboard
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
That supports the claim that 'size doesn't matter, it is what you do with it '....;)
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
This lot sound great , of course they are all very experienced musicians, used to listening and keeping in time with a group. They also have the advantage of a quiet and attentive audience. With a very large session in a noisy pub, problems can occur when people can't hear each other properly due to all the background noise. I've sometime been in a situation where people on one side of me have gone out of time with people on the other side of the session, but clearly can't hear that this has happened, annoying if you're stuck in the middle!
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by cathycook
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
What a feckin din. And there's a really really loud out of tune whistle in there. Aaargh, what a bloody racket
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by ...
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Full of Christmas cheer and seasonal goodwill, I see, are we michael?
Right enough, shame about the whistle, or piccollo, but never mind. Don't focus on it. (We had a couple of punters trying out spoons last night, and it took considerable effort to keep thinking on the beat of the tune, but we managed. Just Zenned-out the out of cadence din.) Some of them don't look like they're enjoying themselves, but the joy is expressed in the music.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Apart from the fact that this is not a session.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
I know what you mean, just zen it out, I sometimes find myself having to do that, especially bodhrans. A smoke helps.
But it kind of defeats the object. You know, you want to play with people, you want to listen, you want to hear. And if half of what you are hearing is a bloody din, and the other half might well be quite good, but you can't hear it anyway.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by ...
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
How about this for a big session....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/music/tv/
Try the first video that comes up.... the series finale.
Anyone fancy those guys joining in next time down the local pub?
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Barn Owl
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
It would have been nice to see a smile or two as well I agree with KML, a session is good music and good fun in my book as I have often had to tell my Gf's size isnt everything .
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
could'nt agree with you more Llig. and I dont say that often!
whats the point?
I much rather a small session, where you can hear and relate to each other.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Exactly - that's why you have to practice the art of Zenning out the dross. And like anything that requires practice it also requires concentration, before it gets any easier.
Hey, this hijack deserves a discussion on its own!
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Yes, I'd much rather have small sessions. But real life isn't always perfect.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
It's funny as when I first seen the post "Suggestions for a one row" I thought this might referred to one last good row (fight) before the year ends - I immediately thought of posting something on the lines that "written music is always more accurate than the stuff you hear at sessions" to test Michael's reaction but this post seems to suffice!
I wasn't trying to suggest that this would be my favourite type of session (it's better to get more interaction between the musicians in an intimate setting, etc) but it just proves the point that size doesn't interfere with the music if everyone knows what they're doing.
As for smiles, remember that this was taking place at 12 mid-day, there was no bar and in any case I wouldn't like to play a session with 500 attentive listeners - I think the musicians were enjoying themselves nevertheless.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Nah, just play a louder instrument , blast out the dross!
joke.
I have to say though that i would rather stay at home than have to ignore some out of tuner. Honestly, I consider my self one part of the sound. I have no desire to be part of a bad sound, If it doesnt sound good then the session 'aint big enough for the both of us' if you get my point.
I take pride in what i do, if i dont enjoy listening to the 'music' we make then I am not interested in being part of it.......
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Absolutely Bannerman, the size is not an issue that cannot be surmounted......... though i cant see trad players accepting a conductor!
joke!
Smiles. Interesting point, its a shame but the more pressure there is on the musicians, the more serious it gets.
I know if I could hear someone was out of tune I doubt I would'nt be smiling.
But Its really down to the tone set by the anchor'person'[s] as to whether its a laugh or a 'serious' session, this doesnt relate to the quality of the music at all.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Her whistle is pretty bad though - it's like the aural equivalent of sucking lemons, no? Hard to smile through that.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Dragut Reis
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Not that I'm averse to the odd bit of, ahem, microtonal experimentation myself...
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Dragut Reis
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Did I detect just a tiny bit of hair-tossing? They must have been nearly ready to enjoy themselves (once the pub opened).
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by geoffwright
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
For anyone wishing to understand Geoff's hair-tossing fetish...
http://www.brackenrigg.co.uk/
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Oh yes it is. It doesn't take much to get me out for a tune but I can't be bothered with big sessions. What's the point? - unless you want to hide and pretend to be good. About a dozen is the limit of tolerance. Just a big slushy mess IMO.
# Posted on December 22nd 2007 by bogman
Now for Something Completely Different !
There's a time and a place for everything and there's definitely something magical about those mega-sessions that sometimes spring up at festivals or fleadhanna cheoil where the larger number of musicians in full spate can create that elusive electricity. Even if it were possible to replicate this at the more regular normal sessions, I don't think any of us would want to.
As for something completely different, have a look at a "one man" situation over at http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_236_4_lilting_from_seamus_brogan_in_west_london/ where that noble but rare art of dydling is ably demonstrated by Wexford's Séamus Brogan.
# Posted on December 22nd 2007 by Bannerman
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
For a big session, it's best to have a dominant player or two as leader. Keeps things in tune and time! It can sound great. Love the small fireside home sessions though!
# Posted on December 22nd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
"About a dozen is the limit of tolerance"
10 -12 is indeed the practical limit if you want eye contact between the musicians in a conductorless ensemble. Lose that eye contact and you'll soon get that "big slushy mess", as Bogman so aptly put it.
If you have much more than that playing - really playing, not keeping a low profile as the less experienced wisely tend to do - then you need a focal point. Whether you call it a conductor, director, or leader isn't important - that person's role is to keep things together. In a session he obviously wouldn't use a conductor's baton, he'd use body language, probably quite unconsciously, and eye contact with individual players as necessary.
# Posted on December 24th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Obviously a conductor in trad is not an option but if you keep your strong musicians/instruments at the centre of the session, then this solves the problem of keeping everyone together.
# Posted on December 24th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
I prefer small sessions too - who doesn't? But sometimes it's nice to be part of something big. Like Bannerman says, it can be magical. It's not an either/or , all/nothing, question, is it?
And at least you could tell what tune they were playing in the first clip. By that criterion, it's a success.
# Posted on December 24th 2007 by Bren
Re: A Session is Never Too Big ??
Big sessions! AAAagh. Ive sat in some of these where one end changes the tune and the other end does'nt! Chaos. Where the two ends get out of sync! This is where you need a strong rhythm player sitting next to a couple of loud tune-players.
I do like a large-ish session, 7-8 is plenty. It means as a rhythm guitarist I can let go and actually use the full dynamic range of my instrument.
Its not so much the numbers but rather hether people are 'on the ball', actually listening in a pro-activ way, not just referenceing every few miniutes , but really in touch with the ebb and flow. Active listening, useing eye's and ears, and even a bit of ESP!
What do you'se reckon? The psycology of a group activity, tuneing in to the group-mind.
# Posted on December 24th 2007 by piobagusfidil