The Session >> Discussions >> Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Comments
Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I found a fiddle that I absolutely love and am debating over buying it. Do you know anything about this kind of fiddle/violin, What would it possibly be worth? Do you think I should buy it? Any general information you know about this type of fiddle/violin you would like to share, I would greatly appreciate it.
This is it:
- Its possibly a copy of a Jacobus Stainer violin.
- Possibly made in the late 1700's.
- High arch style
- It was repaired in Markneu Kirchen, Germany, by Arnold Voigt in 1940.
- It's in very good condition
- Has a great fiddle sound and lots of volume.
- Very unusual.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
"Possibly made in the late 1700's" means absolutely nothing, unless it has appraisal documents to support the claim. Those sort of claims abound. I'd just treat it like a good 20th century fiddle and buy it if you like the sound. It also makes a difference who you're buying from. Is it another player, a dealer, etc?
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
If you like the sound, pay what the sound is worth to you. Nothing else means anything without an appraisal. You can't be sure of resale value without documentation.
And yeah, the "Possibly made in the late 1700's" bit sounds very suspicious; if I were pawning a cheap 19th century trade fiddle to the public and I had no scrupples, that's probably the kind of statement that would be a winner. Why "possibly?" If it isn't known when it was made, why guess the late 1700s? Coincidence?
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
It's on consignment at elderly music.
This is what the description on the website says:
Good - Very Good condition, late 18th century Stainer copy, probably Markneukirchen work, mostly plain one piece back, light brown varnish, high arched model, a fair number of executed repairs, sweet rich tone with plenty of depth, with oblongHSC, on consignment.
here is the website: www.elderly.com/vintage/items/110U-4907.htm
It looks a bit darker when you actually see it. And at the store they said I could probably make an offer on it, it's been there for over a year.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I'm no expert on fiddles so wait for the guys who really know what they're talking about before putting too much into this comment.
But I have a real problem with the scroll on that thing...it looks like a bad day for an apprentice. If that's an indication of the overall craftsmanship on the instrument, it's a bad sign.
But I'm just a guy who plays the instrument, not an expert on the instrument itself. I certainly can't tell you anything about what it's worth, but I would shy away from it as a buyer myself.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
The left F-hole looks to be in rough shape too. A shot of the label might be useful too, but they don't offer one.
I don't think I would ever buy an instrument like that online, unless they are willing to let you try it for a week or two first. They might offer a friendly return policy, but would you have to pay for shipping? That's not cheap, for a violin.
Go to your local violin shop (or at least the nearest reputable shop), and try out as many violins as you can find in that price range, then compare it to the one Elderly is selling. Any decent violin shop should allow you to take an instrument home for a few days before expecting you to buy it--especially if you're planning to spend a few thousand dollars.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
What silver bow said, plus you might get a second opinion, e.g., have someone else play it before you buy it and opine. In fact, the more respected opinions the merrier.
Really, I would take anything elderly says with a large grain of salt. How do we know they know a thing about fiddles, and they could just be putting some speculation or more-or-less educated guesses into that blurb without really knowing what they're saying.
I really don't know what to conclude from that scroll. German violins are typically made by a team, not one person, and that scroll is simply the weakest link, so to speak, and not perceived as important (which would kind of surprise me). OTOH, it doesn't necessarily speak well that the product was allowed to leave the village with an awkard, unbalanced-looking scroll.
I think you really need to look at the big picture, so to speak, with this particular violin. How does it look, sound, and feel to you and your cohorts? I would also encourage you to play a lot of instruments in the same general price range. This will help you to know if it's really a bargain.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
It's such a shame, because we always want to find deals. This likely isn't late 1700s, it's probably mid-1800s, and certainly a Stainer-style copy. Varnish, purfling, f-holes, and to a lesser extent scrollwork (it realy isn't that bad) point to shoddy, quick construction. That said, maybe they got lucky and it sounds fantastic - you never, ever, know until you play it.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
"scrollwork (it realy isn't that bad)"
Are you kidding me? This thing is listed at $3,200! No one who carves scrolls like that would be doing so on a good instrument, in any time period. I can't help but think that this was a "practice" instrument made by a novice luthier, or just a defective product. Or a trade violin with nice fittings.
There's no excuse for that scroll in this price range, unless there's some colorful and interesting history behind it that somehow makes it make sense.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
What is 'on consigment'? Is that the same as commission sale in the UK - the shop does not actually own the instrument, but is selling it on behalf of someone else? If so, your legal contract, in the UK, when buying it is with the owner not the shop . It may still be an OK fiddle, but if it isn't and you buy it , this may be a problem.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Screetch is right. Do an image search for 18th Century violin and you'll see some very pretty instruments for nothing like that price - like here: http://www.berkeleymusic.com/used.htm
Here's some images of a real Stainer - look at those f-holes and that scroll. Breathtakingly beautiful! Then look back at the Elderly one. Not much of a "copy"!
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
taken into account the scroll, varnsih and F holes, youcan certainly get a much better looking violin for your money.
But how does it sound?
Unfortunately, violins have become "antiques" in the market, so to speak. Saying that there is really no quantifiable way to determine what a violin is worth, because most people buy a violin to play, and it is very difficult to say how much to pay for sound. That is why we try to determine the providence of a fiddle..to put a price tag on it. And thhe origin has to go hand in hand with the craftsmanship.
If I were buying that violin as a collectible "antique", I'm a fool.
If that violin has a tone that blows all the Guerneris and Veiullaimes out of the water (don't they all? hehehe) then it is priceless.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Couldn't agree more Sunnybear. It's easy to fall into the trap of buying fiddles using your eyes and not your ears.
I have a very old Stainer copy that looks very similar to the one at Elderly Instruments, which came to me in pieces. After a steep learning curve and many hours of work it eventually came to life with a beautiful voice and even tone and volume across all the strings. It has lovely rich bass and sweet top end which responds to the bow like a dream. The thing is pig ugly and has the sort of filth/patina that only comes with a couple of hundred years of playing. If I'd come across my fiddle in a dealers and put it under the ear, I'd have had no hesitation in handing over $3000 for it.
So in answer to Keelin's question: make sure you can have the fiddle for a while on approval and give it a try. Chances are it's been in the shop for 12 months because people have been buying with their eyes and you may very well end up with a great fiddle.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Screetch, I never said it was a good deal (it's not, you can find mid-1800 Stainer copies for under a thousand, if you look) - all I said is that the scroll isn't as bad as the f-holes or purfling
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
'being', It looks like the bridge is plane, not maple from the pictures, changing the sound (softer wood I think); the strings, tailpiece and chinrest will need changing to make it usable costing extra.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
hmm very differing opinions.... I think that this fiddle sounds incredible for fiddle playing, almost exactly how Jim Williams described his. At the store they have a room with around 25 or so used fiddles and this one was definitely my favorite, I played it for 45 min. out of the 2 and a half hours I was there trying out fiddles. My parents are NOT willing to pay the price it's listed for.
It sounds like the general opinion is that it's not worth $3,200. My parents don't think that it is either. If I had $3,200 I would buy it but since I don't, I'm thinking I'm not going to be getting it. I'm wondering if anyone knows how often I would come across another one similar to it, if I can't get a good price on this one.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
If you are going to buy a fiddle online pahdah hound on EBay is good and he has a return policy.I think you should find and play a fiddle before you part with your hard earned wedge, it doesn't matter a damn how it looks if it sounds awful
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Well I'm actually not thinking it's worth $3,200, because there was another fiddle I liked second to this fiddle. It had great sound (nothing compared to the one we're talking about), and was listed at around $500. My parents want to get that one, but I think it would very much a disappointment after playing the other one. I really really love the other one, any advice?
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
advice:
1) go to another shop
2) tell the luthier how much (maximum) you have to spend
3) ask him to show you the fiddles in your price range without revealing the price
4) buy the one you like
really, it is so easy to become involved with a violin because of price (not saying you are, just saying it is)...you get very wrapped up in the fact taht this violin costs so much money so it really must be worth it
other violins will come along, especially since you are young and your parents are the ones buying the violin
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I feel for you Keelin. As I said, the one you have there is very similar to the one I have. The scroll looks slightly different and not as well formed as mine but that means nothing. It was common practice to pinch nice scrolls and put them on named fiddles which needed a new or better neck for some reason. So that one may have started out with a much better scroll/neck and lost it along the way.
I have no advice on how to raise the $3200 that the owner of this fiddle wants. I will say this though, you've learned an invaluable lesson. If you can walk in to a room with 25 fiddles in it and find the best sounding one there, without being hampered by any prior knowledge of what a good fiddle should "LOOK LIKE", then eventually you will find another one as good and maybe cheap enough for you to buy. Because now, you are armed with KNOWLEDGE!
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
"hmm very differing opinions.... I think that this fiddle sounds incredible for fiddle playing"
Our opinions are only based on how the instrument looks. It looks low-quality to me, but I haven't played it. You're the only one here who has played it. For a musician, the sound is much more important than its looks or quality.
If it sounds great to you buy it. Play some other fiddles in that price range, but if you can't find anything that you like the sound of better for that kind of money, ignore what we are saying and buy it. The important thing is how it sounds, and how much YOU like it.
There's a bit of concern about resale value though, if you trade up later. It may be hard to get your investment back with this fiddle, unless you can really impress a buyer with the sound.
But if you love the sound and you don't think that you'll want to sell it to trade up later, buy it. The important thing is to have a fiddle that you like to play.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I we assume that the sound and feel of the fiddle is the most important thing, and money is just a negotiable detail....
And if you are really convinced that it is the right violin for you, you might ask your parents what sort of price they *would* consider a good investment, for that instrument. Then make that offer to the store, see what they say. If it's been there for a year, the store might be willing to make a deal to move it.
Or maybe try for some sort of a "rent to own" deal. The store doesn't make any money on it if it just sits there. Why not try some creative approaches--you don't have anything to lose, right?
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
that's just the catch, Screetch...violins ARE sold by look, for the most part...
for a German factory instrument with the issues this fiddle has, it is by no stretch worth the asking price, especially without a label (or even with one for that matter).
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Sunny bear's advice is good. Mine is along the same lines but more long-winded (of course).
Keelin, hope this isn't patronizing, but, from an old and grey-haired POV, and from someone who's lived the quest for the perfect fiddle:
OK so you've fallen in love with this fiddle. But if you haven't got the money to buy it, it's unattainable. Falling in love with the unattainable is very alluring, especially when you're young and passionate. (Delicious agony - thousands of poets have thrilled to it.)
If you can't do that, I suggest a cooling off period of a few weeks. If the fiddle has been there for a year, it's likely to be there for a while longer. Chill out, explore other options. And that doesn't mean just sitting for a few weeks mooning after and longing for that one fiddle. Go out and try more - lots more.
If you had $3200 to spend, you could find a LOT of very good other fiddles to try - ones that you could be surer of the resale value, too. So you don't have $3200. But there are lots of fiddles out there for much less. Try some, not just in one store...
As a general rule, never spend money on a fiddle, especially serious money like that, without being allowed to take it (and maybe a couple of others) home. Good dealers will let you do this.
If you are still in love after a cooling off period, and if you can take it home, try it in different rooms, and in combination with other instruments, for a few days. And definitely take it to a proper violin dealer for an appraisal. They might tell you it's worth much less than the asking price. In which case, I don't think it's fair to even ask your parents to poney up for it.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
keelin, you do have an option here. Low-ball it and see if you can get a fair price.
A fair price for that fiddle is probably around $600-$1000. Offer the store something in that range and see what they say. If they try to tell you that it's "late 1700s" or any of that garbage, point out that there's no documentation of that and the fiddle is obviously poorly made.
If the shop has any idea of what they are about, they know quite well that it's likely to just collect dust with a $3200 price tag. They did say that they were wiling to negotiate a price, so I would consider $3200 to be a sucker price and they might well take far less for it.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
you know, buying a violin is not like buying a used car if you are dealing with reputable luthiers...I don't care if the fiddle is "on commission"..the sale is representative of the shop and the shop should work with the seller to put the violin up at a fair price to everybody involved to begin with...
I would never, ever buy anything from a shop that will negotiate a price..that to me just stinks of someone trying to sucker someone else into paying a higher price for the product than it is really worth..
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
So you never buy in sales?
Everyshop will put a 'sucker price' on their goods, its called business. If you pay the price on the label then you are the sucker
Things are worth what someone will pay for them. If I buy a piece of pewter for 50£ and decide its worth 300£ . If someone buys it, it was worth 300 to that person. simple.
Fiddles are the same. especially 'old' fiddles. I mean, 3200$ is a lot of money. You could get a hand made instrument for that kind of money. It could simply be a fake!
Get it appraised. or forget it.
Besides, I have to say that its your folks with the money, not you.
Accept reality, you will have many setbacks in life, that will likely hurt you a lot more than a fiddle you cant afford.
I personally have never spend more than 1000$ on an instrument in 33 years of playing. I can be pretty sure that in another 33 yrs i wont either! 500 bucks will get you something that will do. ITs how you play it that matters after all!
My favourite fiddle at the moment cost me 1$ [90$ postage] the strings cost about 50$ a few upgrades and i have change out of 200 dollars.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
sunnybear, how can you not see the graft? The graft lines are clearly visible on the side picture below the g peg, the 2 woods being completely different (scroll is plain, graft is figured). I still think the bridge may be plane, the medullary rays seeming to be too strong for maple. http://shop.violinbridges.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=354926
The front of the bridge cuts through the rays at an angle, making them look like bold spots.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
no Jig, that is simply not true...
I said go to a "reputable" luthier...they are not used car salesmen and do not put "sucker" prices on their instruments..do you never go to a reputable luthier?
you are right @ old fiddles though and hence my comment about them being "antiques" in trade and not "instruments"
and it is not always "how you play it" that matters...maybe to someone with a tin ear perhaps...
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Sunnybear, as far as I can tell, violin shops (especially the reputable ones!) are almost always negotiable with their prices. The negotiable range might not be huge, but it is usually flexible, especially when you’re also dealing with trade-ins. The only exception I can think of is perhaps a client who wanted to sell an instrument on consignment and refused to accept anything but the listing price. But in these cases the shops might refuse to carry the instrument if they think the price would scare off too many buyers, because then they would have to carry and be responsible for the instrument with no benefit to themselves.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
The base line is straight down from the left extremity of the G peg and the feather edge going up at about 2 o clock from it about halfway on the picture between the left of the peg and the chin. This is how everybody I know does neck grafts.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
For what it's worth, Elderly is a fine, reputable institution, but specialising more in bluegrass than Irish, esp. Martin guitars, 5-string banjos and mandolins, rather than fiddles. Some decent deals can be found in their fiddle room though. The staff is pretty knowledgeable – I forget the head luthier/fiddle repair guy's name but he's well regarded. that doesn't mean this particular instrument is what they claim it to be, though. They could make a mistake, though, a sort of honest one blinded by wishful thinking.
In the end, it is all about the sound, anyway. And not really even the sound under the player's ear, more the sound others will hear when standing three feet or more away.
I wonder if any members on this board have stopped by Elderly to try this instrument out, and wouldn't mind reporting their impressions. Fran, I'm talking to you!
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Of course i go to a reputable luthier, but the fact is that a high asking price is standard practice. You could allmost say that the bigger the reputation, the bigger the asking price! I dont like the term 'sucker price',
Im sorry but the most renowned international specialistshave been taken for 'a ride' more times than you would believe in the fields of antiques, and archeology. It can come down to scientific analysis, to get the true picture.
A good reputation is a valuable thing. but no guarantee.
In this field, of antique musical intruments, you may well pay for the name, age, etc etc , what it sounds like! may be pretty irelevant. A proffessional faker could, i assure you, knock out , instruments to fool many people who should perhaps know better. .
Of course I am not saying this instrument is anything but what it is label'd as, however best take with a pinch of salt.
Back to the asking price. a high asking price is not immoral, or dishonest or disreputable in any way.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Reminds me of a little story, fella goes up to one of the top international violinist, comments, thats a fine sounding instrument you have there, he says. The violinist, who's name escapes me, put the fiddle to his ear, funny, he says, I cant hear anything
A good fiddler can make a cheap instrument shine, a poor fiddler could have a Guarnerius, and he will still sound like a poor fiddler, all be it one playing a fine instrument!.
Of course we all want an instrument that we love, that sings for us, has that tone we want in a fiddle. But priority number one is the players skill.
In fact I would say, without hesitation the bow is at least half the instrument, A good bow will last a life time [we hope!]
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
jig, the violinist you refer to was Heifitz commenting to a patron
I agree with the statement that the top priority is the players skill
but if it were that and that alone then Heifitz would not have played a Strad and Hilary Hahn would not be playing a Vuillaume
ummm
or maybe they would have
in any case it is still my opinion that, since the original poster asked for opinions, it is my opinion, having seen via the internet and not at all hearing this fiddle, that money would be better spent elsewhere.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I have a super slow connection at the moment, on an 'antique' computer, so I havent looked at the fiddle in question.
Heifitz, thought so but was'nt sure. Lovely little story though
There's no argument that the better the fiddle the better.
Not having seen or heard the fiddle, my opinion would be that 3grand is too much to spend on an instrument untill the player is really 'something else'. When you can earn the money playing on a cheap fiddle then you certainly can justify an upgrade
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Grafts - if the fiddle were really as old as it is supposed to be, it would not have the original neck now, because it would have been converted from baroque to modern configuration sometime in the 19th century.
Normally they grafted the original pegbox and scroll back onto the new neck. There seems to be no sign of this - so it looks to me that either the instrument does not date back earlier than c. 1870, or the entire neck and scroll are not original.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
“my opinion would be that 3grand is too much to spend on an instrument untill the player is really 'something else'. When you can earn the money playing on a cheap fiddle then you certainly can justify an upgrade”
I know a lot of people feel this way, but I really don’t agree, for two reasons: a) cheap fiddles usually sound cheap, and why not play something that sounds beautiful, if you can, and b) upgrading is a pain in the arse and ultimately a more expensive way to go---why not avoid it and buy a good instrument that you won’t have to upgrade later? And 3 grand (dollars, not euros---important distinction these days) is not that expensive in the violin world anyway.
Just my $.02. I have no idea what that particular fiddle sounds like, so it’s impossible to say what the best choice is. It’s not a very nice-looking one, for sure---the woods are very plain and the varnish job isn’t great. Something tells me the person who put it on consignment is asking too much for it---people often do that when they overpaid for the thing themselves and want to get their money back.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I recently came to be the owner of one of these old Stainer models. My aunt got in for a song off of e-bay or someplace. She had it for a while and ultimately decided it sounded too fiddley (she plays classical) for her taste, so she sent it to me in exchange for another violin I had, and rarely played. It sustained some damage in shipping (neck had come partly unglued from the back, and so on), and when I first got a look at it I didn’t have much hope for it ever being worth my time. It was damaged enough to be unplayable so I couldn’t even hear what it sounded like. I took it in to a local high-end “reputable” shop to see what the repairs would cost, and they basically told me it was not worth their time or mine to touch such fiddles, and that these high arched Stainer types are a-dime-a-dozen.
They sent me to a guy, who was willing to take their dirty work, and he thought it had potential. I went ahead and got the thing minimally repaired, convinced I was probably wasting my money. Turns out I wasn’t, it’s now become my main fiddle, even though my other violin is hand-made, technically better, so much prettier, and worth more for sure. At first, I was a little put off by the Stainer’s fullness and volume, being accustomed to something much more subtle and mellow, but I got used to it and now I really like it. Now, my other fiddle almost sounds dull. The sound has also improved a lot with playing. I’ve played a couple of Stainer copies and they definitely have a sound all their own.
My violin is the same basic idea as the one in the pictures except it has a decent scroll, the F-holes and purfling are *much* nicer, and it generally looks better all the way around. It has a bunch of repaired cracks and the usual label inside that says something in German and “1716”. Mine does not have a graft.
I wonder if that strange chinrest in the picture is there to cover up the fact that the tail-piece rests against the body in places because of the high arching. Mine has a little piece of leather under the tail-piece to keep it from scratching. This can’t be great for the sound. I think my fiddle could be improved a bit with some more work, but I haven’t got ‘round to it yet, because I’m satisfied as it is. While I like this fiddle, I sure as hell wouldn’t pay three grand for it. Of course, spending three thousand dollars on a fiddle is so far out of my lexicon at this point, and it’s all relative I suppose.
Anyhow, I guess the moral of this story is, that fiddle is probably not worth anything close to what they’re asking, and you can certainly find another, similar fiddle for a lot less money. I'd be inclined to offer them whatever your parents are willing to pay, because I doubt they'll ever sell it as it stands. If you do pay that for it, be aware that if you sell it you’d be hard pressed to ever get your money back and some snooty violin shop will at some point tell you it isn’t even worth looking at, so be sure you’re going to want to keep it forever.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I do not have either the visual acuity or the luthierian skills to determine from the web photographs whether or not the neck is grafted. However, looking at http://elderly.com/images/vintage/110U/110U-4907_front.jpg it appears to me that the peg box is not facing in quite the same direction as the body of the instrument; it appears to be slightly twisted towards the treble side. In particular, I can see the outside of the peg box on the G/D side, but not on the A/E side, whereas the front of the instrument is directly facing the camera. Of course, this may be an artefact of the photography, but if that twist in the position of the peg box really is there then it ties in well with the artistic disaster that is the scroll, and the even more ugly cutting work carried out when the bass-side f-hole was made (I.e. an apprentice having a bad day and no supervision).
If the instrument is of 18c vintage then I would have expected to see smooth varnish wear on the lower bout of the belly on one or other side (or both) of the tail-piece, because that is how the instrument would have been mostly held by the player's chin before the chin rest was invented by Spohr in the 1820s (see the massive varnish wear in the photos of the violin played by Paganini). What you can just see in another photo of this "Stainer" instrument - http://elderly.com/images/vintage/110U/110U-4907_body-front.jpg - is that at least one side of that central chin rest (which, incidentally, is a modern version of the design first proposed by Spohr) has abrasions which do not look much like the wear from a chin, bearded or otherwise. I'm not surprised that they have been covered up by that chin rest.
Incidentally, I am of the view that prospective buyers of violins on the internet would be better served if photos included at least one front view without a chin rest, and a side view. No side view here - so it's difficult or impossible to see
1) the arching of the belly (with some high-arched fiddles you can see daylight through both f-holes by looking across the instrument), and
2) whether there is contact between the tail-piece and the belly due to high arching.
I find it difficult to imagine that a maker of high-arched instruments of the status of Stainer wouldn't have considered the possibility of the tail-piece touching the belly, and so would have arranged the geometry so that this would not happen. Neck angles and bridge heights were different to modern instruments. Tail-pieces in baroque times weren't quite the elaborate affairs we have now, and fine tuners were unknown. And another "incidentally" - if pegs are fitted properly it is quite possible to tune a steel E from the peg without having a fine tuner fitted - thereby benefiting the tone.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I'm guessing the people who own this violin want more money because of repairs. So what is the general idea of what this fiddle is worth. I've looked all over ebay and craigslist just to see what similiar fiddles are selling for but mostly I found all the ones similiar need a lot of repair and were selling for around $100-$200. And I'm not very educated in what all the parts of the fiddle are named. Sorry but, what is a graft?
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
A graft is sticking something onto something else - a plant cutting onto a different rootstock, a bit of skin from the bum to cover a burn on the face, etc.
When violins of the baroque period were converted to the modern configuration, a new neck was "grafted" onto the fiddle body, and the old pegbox and scroll was carefully cut off the old neck and joined or "grafted" onto the new neck. On a fiddle that has been subjected to this treatment, you can see the join between the new neck and the old pegbox. Sometimes you have to look very carefully to see it.
I was told by my luthier that if a fiddle has no neck graft, you can reckon that it was made later than about 1870-1875.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I didn't end up getting that fiddle. I got a different one that I love! It's very loud with a lovely deep sound and dark color. And it was a fair price to make all of you happy ($1,200 U.S.).
Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I found a fiddle that I absolutely love and am debating over buying it. Do you know anything about this kind of fiddle/violin, What would it possibly be worth? Do you think I should buy it? Any general information you know about this type of fiddle/violin you would like to share, I would greatly appreciate it.
This is it:
- Its possibly a copy of a Jacobus Stainer violin.
- Possibly made in the late 1700's.
- High arch style
- It was repaired in Markneu Kirchen, Germany, by Arnold Voigt in 1940.
- It's in very good condition
- Has a great fiddle sound and lots of volume.
- Very unusual.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by keelin
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Actually it's spelled Arnold Voight
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by keelin
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
"Possibly made in the late 1700's" means absolutely nothing, unless it has appraisal documents to support the claim. Those sort of claims abound. I'd just treat it like a good 20th century fiddle and buy it if you like the sound. It also makes a difference who you're buying from. Is it another player, a dealer, etc?
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by polkageist
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
d'accord
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
If you like the sound, pay what the sound is worth to you. Nothing else means anything without an appraisal. You can't be sure of resale value without documentation.
And yeah, the "Possibly made in the late 1700's" bit sounds very suspicious; if I were pawning a cheap 19th century trade fiddle to the public and I had no scrupples, that's probably the kind of statement that would be a winner. Why "possibly?" If it isn't known when it was made, why guess the late 1700s? Coincidence?
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
It's on consignment at elderly music.
This is what the description on the website says:
Good - Very Good condition, late 18th century Stainer copy, probably Markneukirchen work, mostly plain one piece back, light brown varnish, high arched model, a fair number of executed repairs, sweet rich tone with plenty of depth, with oblongHSC, on consignment.
here is the website: www.elderly.com/vintage/items/110U-4907.htm
It looks a bit darker when you actually see it. And at the store they said I could probably make an offer on it, it's been there for over a year.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by keelin
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I'm no expert on fiddles so wait for the guys who really know what they're talking about before putting too much into this comment.
But I have a real problem with the scroll on that thing...it looks like a bad day for an apprentice. If that's an indication of the overall craftsmanship on the instrument, it's a bad sign.
But I'm just a guy who plays the instrument, not an expert on the instrument itself. I certainly can't tell you anything about what it's worth, but I would shy away from it as a buyer myself.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
The left F-hole looks to be in rough shape too. A shot of the label might be useful too, but they don't offer one.
I don't think I would ever buy an instrument like that online, unless they are willing to let you try it for a week or two first. They might offer a friendly return policy, but would you have to pay for shipping? That's not cheap, for a violin.
Go to your local violin shop (or at least the nearest reputable shop), and try out as many violins as you can find in that price range, then compare it to the one Elderly is selling. Any decent violin shop should allow you to take an instrument home for a few days before expecting you to buy it--especially if you're planning to spend a few thousand dollars.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Georgi
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
What silver bow said, plus you might get a second opinion, e.g., have someone else play it before you buy it and opine. In fact, the more respected opinions the merrier.
Really, I would take anything elderly says with a large grain of salt. How do we know they know a thing about fiddles, and they could just be putting some speculation or more-or-less educated guesses into that blurb without really knowing what they're saying.
I really don't know what to conclude from that scroll. German violins are typically made by a team, not one person, and that scroll is simply the weakest link, so to speak, and not perceived as important (which would kind of surprise me). OTOH, it doesn't necessarily speak well that the product was allowed to leave the village with an awkard, unbalanced-looking scroll.
I think you really need to look at the big picture, so to speak, with this particular violin. How does it look, sound, and feel to you and your cohorts? I would also encourage you to play a lot of instruments in the same general price range. This will help you to know if it's really a bargain.
Caveat emptor.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
It's such a shame, because we always want to find deals. This likely isn't late 1700s, it's probably mid-1800s, and certainly a Stainer-style copy. Varnish, purfling, f-holes, and to a lesser extent scrollwork (it realy isn't that bad) point to shoddy, quick construction. That said, maybe they got lucky and it sounds fantastic - you never, ever, know until you play it.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by reenactor
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
"scrollwork (it realy isn't that bad)"
Are you kidding me? This thing is listed at $3,200! No one who carves scrolls like that would be doing so on a good instrument, in any time period. I can't help but think that this was a "practice" instrument made by a novice luthier, or just a defective product. Or a trade violin with nice fittings.
There's no excuse for that scroll in this price range, unless there's some colorful and interesting history behind it that somehow makes it make sense.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
'And at the store they said I could probably make an offer on it, it's been there for over a year'.
That doesn't sound good to me. Why wasn't it bought sooner? Probably because .......
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
What is 'on consigment'? Is that the same as commission sale in the UK - the shop does not actually own the instrument, but is selling it on behalf of someone else? If so, your legal contract, in the UK, when buying it is with the owner not the shop . It may still be an OK fiddle, but if it isn't and you buy it , this may be a problem.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by c.g.
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Screetch is right. Do an image search for 18th Century violin and you'll see some very pretty instruments for nothing like that price - like here: http://www.berkeleymusic.com/used.htm
Here's some images of a real Stainer - look at those f-holes and that scroll. Breathtakingly beautiful! Then look back at the Elderly one. Not much of a "copy"!
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
didn't put the link in - here it is:http://www.usd.edu/smm/Violins/Before1800/Stainerviolin.html
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I have only three words of advice :-
AVOID AVOID AVOID!!!!!
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Freddy Frog
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
taken into account the scroll, varnsih and F holes, youcan certainly get a much better looking violin for your money.
But how does it sound?
Unfortunately, violins have become "antiques" in the market, so to speak. Saying that there is really no quantifiable way to determine what a violin is worth, because most people buy a violin to play, and it is very difficult to say how much to pay for sound. That is why we try to determine the providence of a fiddle..to put a price tag on it. And thhe origin has to go hand in hand with the craftsmanship.
If I were buying that violin as a collectible "antique", I'm a fool.
If that violin has a tone that blows all the Guerneris and Veiullaimes out of the water (don't they all? hehehe) then it is priceless.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Couldn't agree more Sunnybear. It's easy to fall into the trap of buying fiddles using your eyes and not your ears.
I have a very old Stainer copy that looks very similar to the one at Elderly Instruments, which came to me in pieces. After a steep learning curve and many hours of work it eventually came to life with a beautiful voice and even tone and volume across all the strings. It has lovely rich bass and sweet top end which responds to the bow like a dream. The thing is pig ugly and has the sort of filth/patina that only comes with a couple of hundred years of playing. If I'd come across my fiddle in a dealers and put it under the ear, I'd have had no hesitation in handing over $3000 for it.
So in answer to Keelin's question: make sure you can have the fiddle for a while on approval and give it a try. Chances are it's been in the shop for 12 months because people have been buying with their eyes and you may very well end up with a great fiddle.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Jim Williams
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Screetch, I never said it was a good deal (it's not, you can find mid-1800 Stainer copies for under a thousand, if you look) - all I said is that the scroll isn't as bad as the f-holes or purfling
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by reenactor
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
reenactor, that is one ugly a*s*s scroll
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Price and description look fairly accurate to me. The neck graft would indicate the date bing correct
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by tlittlewazzock
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
'being', It looks like the bridge is plane, not maple from the pictures, changing the sound (softer wood I think); the strings, tailpiece and chinrest will need changing to make it usable costing extra.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by tlittlewazzock
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
it is hard to tell about the bridge..
the strings are one of the Vision line of strings and assuming they are new should be an ok place to start
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
actually, the bridge appears to be maple upon 2nd glance
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
and I don't see a neck or a scroll graft either
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
hmm very differing opinions.... I think that this fiddle sounds incredible for fiddle playing, almost exactly how Jim Williams described his. At the store they have a room with around 25 or so used fiddles and this one was definitely my favorite, I played it for 45 min. out of the 2 and a half hours I was there trying out fiddles. My parents are NOT willing to pay the price it's listed for.
It sounds like the general opinion is that it's not worth $3,200. My parents don't think that it is either. If I had $3,200 I would buy it but since I don't, I'm thinking I'm not going to be getting it. I'm wondering if anyone knows how often I would come across another one similar to it, if I can't get a good price on this one.
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by keelin
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
If you are going to buy a fiddle online pahdah hound on EBay is good and he has a return policy.I think you should find and play a fiddle before you part with your hard earned wedge, it doesn't matter a damn how it looks if it sounds awful
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Red Robin
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Well I'm actually not thinking it's worth $3,200, because there was another fiddle I liked second to this fiddle. It had great sound (nothing compared to the one we're talking about), and was listed at around $500. My parents want to get that one, but I think it would very much a disappointment after playing the other one. I really really love the other one, any advice?
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by keelin
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
advice:
1) go to another shop
2) tell the luthier how much (maximum) you have to spend
3) ask him to show you the fiddles in your price range without revealing the price
4) buy the one you like
really, it is so easy to become involved with a violin because of price (not saying you are, just saying it is)...you get very wrapped up in the fact taht this violin costs so much money so it really must be worth it
other violins will come along, especially since you are young and your parents are the ones buying the violin
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I see that you are in Lansing...
there are several great violin shops in Ann Arbor
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I feel for you Keelin. As I said, the one you have there is very similar to the one I have. The scroll looks slightly different and not as well formed as mine but that means nothing. It was common practice to pinch nice scrolls and put them on named fiddles which needed a new or better neck for some reason. So that one may have started out with a much better scroll/neck and lost it along the way.
I have no advice on how to raise the $3200 that the owner of this fiddle wants. I will say this though, you've learned an invaluable lesson. If you can walk in to a room with 25 fiddles in it and find the best sounding one there, without being hampered by any prior knowledge of what a good fiddle should "LOOK LIKE", then eventually you will find another one as good and maybe cheap enough for you to buy. Because now, you are armed with KNOWLEDGE!
I wish you good luck in your quest.
Jim
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Jim Williams
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
"hmm very differing opinions.... I think that this fiddle sounds incredible for fiddle playing"
Our opinions are only based on how the instrument looks. It looks low-quality to me, but I haven't played it. You're the only one here who has played it. For a musician, the sound is much more important than its looks or quality.
If it sounds great to you buy it. Play some other fiddles in that price range, but if you can't find anything that you like the sound of better for that kind of money, ignore what we are saying and buy it. The important thing is how it sounds, and how much YOU like it.
There's a bit of concern about resale value though, if you trade up later. It may be hard to get your investment back with this fiddle, unless you can really impress a buyer with the sound.
But if you love the sound and you don't think that you'll want to sell it to trade up later, buy it. The important thing is to have a fiddle that you like to play.
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I we assume that the sound and feel of the fiddle is the most important thing, and money is just a negotiable detail....
And if you are really convinced that it is the right violin for you, you might ask your parents what sort of price they *would* consider a good investment, for that instrument. Then make that offer to the store, see what they say. If it's been there for a year, the store might be willing to make a deal to move it.
Or maybe try for some sort of a "rent to own" deal. The store doesn't make any money on it if it just sits there. Why not try some creative approaches--you don't have anything to lose, right?
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by John Galt
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Ack. *If* we assume...
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by John Galt
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
that's just the catch, Screetch...violins ARE sold by look, for the most part...
for a German factory instrument with the issues this fiddle has, it is by no stretch worth the asking price, especially without a label (or even with one for that matter).
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Sunny bear's advice is good. Mine is along the same lines but more long-winded (of course).
Keelin, hope this isn't patronizing, but, from an old and grey-haired POV, and from someone who's lived the quest for the perfect fiddle:
OK so you've fallen in love with this fiddle. But if you haven't got the money to buy it, it's unattainable. Falling in love with the unattainable is very alluring, especially when you're young and passionate. (Delicious agony - thousands of poets have thrilled to it.)
If you can't do that, I suggest a cooling off period of a few weeks. If the fiddle has been there for a year, it's likely to be there for a while longer. Chill out, explore other options. And that doesn't mean just sitting for a few weeks mooning after and longing for that one fiddle. Go out and try more - lots more.
If you had $3200 to spend, you could find a LOT of very good other fiddles to try - ones that you could be surer of the resale value, too. So you don't have $3200. But there are lots of fiddles out there for much less. Try some, not just in one store...
As a general rule, never spend money on a fiddle, especially serious money like that, without being allowed to take it (and maybe a couple of others) home. Good dealers will let you do this.
If you are still in love after a cooling off period, and if you can take it home, try it in different rooms, and in combination with other instruments, for a few days. And definitely take it to a proper violin dealer for an appraisal. They might tell you it's worth much less than the asking price. In which case, I don't think it's fair to even ask your parents to poney up for it.
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
keelin, you do have an option here. Low-ball it and see if you can get a fair price.
A fair price for that fiddle is probably around $600-$1000. Offer the store something in that range and see what they say. If they try to tell you that it's "late 1700s" or any of that garbage, point out that there's no documentation of that and the fiddle is obviously poorly made.
If the shop has any idea of what they are about, they know quite well that it's likely to just collect dust with a $3200 price tag. They did say that they were wiling to negotiate a price, so I would consider $3200 to be a sucker price and they might well take far less for it.
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
you know, buying a violin is not like buying a used car if you are dealing with reputable luthiers...I don't care if the fiddle is "on commission"..the sale is representative of the shop and the shop should work with the seller to put the violin up at a fair price to everybody involved to begin with...
I would never, ever buy anything from a shop that will negotiate a price..that to me just stinks of someone trying to sucker someone else into paying a higher price for the product than it is really worth..
do not trust this shop
find someone reputable to deal with
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
So you never buy in sales?
Everyshop will put a 'sucker price' on their goods, its called business. If you pay the price on the label then you are the sucker
Things are worth what someone will pay for them. If I buy a piece of pewter for 50£ and decide its worth 300£ . If someone buys it, it was worth 300 to that person. simple.
Fiddles are the same. especially 'old' fiddles. I mean, 3200$ is a lot of money. You could get a hand made instrument for that kind of money. It could simply be a fake!
Get it appraised. or forget it.
Besides, I have to say that its your folks with the money, not you.
Accept reality, you will have many setbacks in life, that will likely hurt you a lot more than a fiddle you cant afford.
I personally have never spend more than 1000$ on an instrument in 33 years of playing. I can be pretty sure that in another 33 yrs i wont either! 500 bucks will get you something that will do. ITs how you play it that matters after all!
My favourite fiddle at the moment cost me 1$ [90$ postage] the strings cost about 50$ a few upgrades and i have change out of 200 dollars.
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
sunnybear, how can you not see the graft? The graft lines are clearly visible on the side picture below the g peg, the 2 woods being completely different (scroll is plain, graft is figured). I still think the bridge may be plane, the medullary rays seeming to be too strong for maple. http://shop.violinbridges.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=354926
The front of the bridge cuts through the rays at an angle, making them look like bold spots.
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by tlittlewazzock
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
no Jig, that is simply not true...
I said go to a "reputable" luthier...they are not used car salesmen and do not put "sucker" prices on their instruments..do you never go to a reputable luthier?
you are right @ old fiddles though and hence my comment about them being "antiques" in trade and not "instruments"
and it is not always "how you play it" that matters...maybe to someone with a tin ear perhaps...
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I still don't believe that is a scroll graft...
most grafts would be dome at the point where the neck and the heel of the scroll would meet, not in the middle of the pegbox
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Sunnybear, as far as I can tell, violin shops (especially the reputable ones!) are almost always negotiable with their prices. The negotiable range might not be huge, but it is usually flexible, especially when you’re also dealing with trade-ins. The only exception I can think of is perhaps a client who wanted to sell an instrument on consignment and refused to accept anything but the listing price. But in these cases the shops might refuse to carry the instrument if they think the price would scare off too many buyers, because then they would have to carry and be responsible for the instrument with no benefit to themselves.
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
The base line is straight down from the left extremity of the G peg and the feather edge going up at about 2 o clock from it about halfway on the picture between the left of the peg and the chin. This is how everybody I know does neck grafts.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by tlittlewazzock
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
For what it's worth, Elderly is a fine, reputable institution, but specialising more in bluegrass than Irish, esp. Martin guitars, 5-string banjos and mandolins, rather than fiddles. Some decent deals can be found in their fiddle room though. The staff is pretty knowledgeable – I forget the head luthier/fiddle repair guy's name but he's well regarded. that doesn't mean this particular instrument is what they claim it to be, though. They could make a mistake, though, a sort of honest one blinded by wishful thinking.
In the end, it is all about the sound, anyway. And not really even the sound under the player's ear, more the sound others will hear when standing three feet or more away.
I wonder if any members on this board have stopped by Elderly to try this instrument out, and wouldn't mind reporting their impressions. Fran, I'm talking to you!
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by fidkid
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
ok, well if it IS a graft, that is the best workmanship on the whole fiddle
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Of course i go to a reputable luthier, but the fact is that a high asking price is standard practice. You could allmost say that the bigger the reputation, the bigger the asking price! I dont like the term 'sucker price',
Im sorry but the most renowned international specialistshave been taken for 'a ride' more times than you would believe in the fields of antiques, and archeology. It can come down to scientific analysis, to get the true picture.
A good reputation is a valuable thing. but no guarantee.
In this field, of antique musical intruments, you may well pay for the name, age, etc etc , what it sounds like! may be pretty irelevant. A proffessional faker could, i assure you, knock out , instruments to fool many people who should perhaps know better. .
Of course I am not saying this instrument is anything but what it is label'd as, however best take with a pinch of salt.
Back to the asking price. a high asking price is not immoral, or dishonest or disreputable in any way.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Reminds me of a little story, fella goes up to one of the top international violinist, comments, thats a fine sounding instrument you have there, he says. The violinist, who's name escapes me, put the fiddle to his ear, funny, he says, I cant hear anything
A good fiddler can make a cheap instrument shine, a poor fiddler could have a Guarnerius, and he will still sound like a poor fiddler, all be it one playing a fine instrument!.
Of course we all want an instrument that we love, that sings for us, has that tone we want in a fiddle. But priority number one is the players skill.
In fact I would say, without hesitation the bow is at least half the instrument, A good bow will last a life time [we hope!]
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
jig, the violinist you refer to was Heifitz commenting to a patron
I agree with the statement that the top priority is the players skill
but if it were that and that alone then Heifitz would not have played a Strad and Hilary Hahn would not be playing a Vuillaume
ummm
or maybe they would have
in any case it is still my opinion that, since the original poster asked for opinions, it is my opinion, having seen via the internet and not at all hearing this fiddle, that money would be better spent elsewhere.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I have a super slow connection at the moment, on an 'antique' computer, so I havent looked at the fiddle in question.
Heifitz, thought so but was'nt sure. Lovely little story though
There's no argument that the better the fiddle the better.
Not having seen or heard the fiddle, my opinion would be that 3grand is too much to spend on an instrument untill the player is really 'something else'. When you can earn the money playing on a cheap fiddle then you certainly can justify an upgrade
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
Grafts - if the fiddle were really as old as it is supposed to be, it would not have the original neck now, because it would have been converted from baroque to modern configuration sometime in the 19th century.
Normally they grafted the original pegbox and scroll back onto the new neck. There seems to be no sign of this - so it looks to me that either the instrument does not date back earlier than c. 1870, or the entire neck and scroll are not original.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
“my opinion would be that 3grand is too much to spend on an instrument untill the player is really 'something else'. When you can earn the money playing on a cheap fiddle then you certainly can justify an upgrade”
I know a lot of people feel this way, but I really don’t agree, for two reasons: a) cheap fiddles usually sound cheap, and why not play something that sounds beautiful, if you can, and b) upgrading is a pain in the arse and ultimately a more expensive way to go---why not avoid it and buy a good instrument that you won’t have to upgrade later? And 3 grand (dollars, not euros---important distinction these days) is not that expensive in the violin world anyway.
Just my $.02. I have no idea what that particular fiddle sounds like, so it’s impossible to say what the best choice is. It’s not a very nice-looking one, for sure---the woods are very plain and the varnish job isn’t great. Something tells me the person who put it on consignment is asking too much for it---people often do that when they overpaid for the thing themselves and want to get their money back.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
ten quid that neck is grafted. Any takers?
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by tlittlewazzock
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I recently came to be the owner of one of these old Stainer models. My aunt got in for a song off of e-bay or someplace. She had it for a while and ultimately decided it sounded too fiddley (she plays classical) for her taste, so she sent it to me in exchange for another violin I had, and rarely played. It sustained some damage in shipping (neck had come partly unglued from the back, and so on), and when I first got a look at it I didn’t have much hope for it ever being worth my time. It was damaged enough to be unplayable so I couldn’t even hear what it sounded like. I took it in to a local high-end “reputable” shop to see what the repairs would cost, and they basically told me it was not worth their time or mine to touch such fiddles, and that these high arched Stainer types are a-dime-a-dozen.
They sent me to a guy, who was willing to take their dirty work, and he thought it had potential. I went ahead and got the thing minimally repaired, convinced I was probably wasting my money. Turns out I wasn’t, it’s now become my main fiddle, even though my other violin is hand-made, technically better, so much prettier, and worth more for sure. At first, I was a little put off by the Stainer’s fullness and volume, being accustomed to something much more subtle and mellow, but I got used to it and now I really like it. Now, my other fiddle almost sounds dull. The sound has also improved a lot with playing. I’ve played a couple of Stainer copies and they definitely have a sound all their own.
My violin is the same basic idea as the one in the pictures except it has a decent scroll, the F-holes and purfling are *much* nicer, and it generally looks better all the way around. It has a bunch of repaired cracks and the usual label inside that says something in German and “1716”. Mine does not have a graft.
I wonder if that strange chinrest in the picture is there to cover up the fact that the tail-piece rests against the body in places because of the high arching. Mine has a little piece of leather under the tail-piece to keep it from scratching. This can’t be great for the sound. I think my fiddle could be improved a bit with some more work, but I haven’t got ‘round to it yet, because I’m satisfied as it is. While I like this fiddle, I sure as hell wouldn’t pay three grand for it. Of course, spending three thousand dollars on a fiddle is so far out of my lexicon at this point, and it’s all relative I suppose.
Anyhow, I guess the moral of this story is, that fiddle is probably not worth anything close to what they’re asking, and you can certainly find another, similar fiddle for a lot less money. I'd be inclined to offer them whatever your parents are willing to pay, because I doubt they'll ever sell it as it stands. If you do pay that for it, be aware that if you sell it you’d be hard pressed to ever get your money back and some snooty violin shop will at some point tell you it isn’t even worth looking at, so be sure you’re going to want to keep it forever.
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by rapidbackpeddler
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I'll send you my address
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
oh, that was to tittlewazzcok
I called Elderly to a fellow named Jeremy...he checked...no graft...
so what does 10 quid translate to in the (failing) american dollar?
# Posted on December 21st 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I do not have either the visual acuity or the luthierian skills to determine from the web photographs whether or not the neck is grafted. However, looking at http://elderly.com/images/vintage/110U/110U-4907_front.jpg it appears to me that the peg box is not facing in quite the same direction as the body of the instrument; it appears to be slightly twisted towards the treble side. In particular, I can see the outside of the peg box on the G/D side, but not on the A/E side, whereas the front of the instrument is directly facing the camera. Of course, this may be an artefact of the photography, but if that twist in the position of the peg box really is there then it ties in well with the artistic disaster that is the scroll, and the even more ugly cutting work carried out when the bass-side f-hole was made (I.e. an apprentice having a bad day and no supervision).
If the instrument is of 18c vintage then I would have expected to see smooth varnish wear on the lower bout of the belly on one or other side (or both) of the tail-piece, because that is how the instrument would have been mostly held by the player's chin before the chin rest was invented by Spohr in the 1820s (see the massive varnish wear in the photos of the violin played by Paganini). What you can just see in another photo of this "Stainer" instrument - http://elderly.com/images/vintage/110U/110U-4907_body-front.jpg - is that at least one side of that central chin rest (which, incidentally, is a modern version of the design first proposed by Spohr) has abrasions which do not look much like the wear from a chin, bearded or otherwise. I'm not surprised that they have been covered up by that chin rest.
Incidentally, I am of the view that prospective buyers of violins on the internet would be better served if photos included at least one front view without a chin rest, and a side view. No side view here - so it's difficult or impossible to see
1) the arching of the belly (with some high-arched fiddles you can see daylight through both f-holes by looking across the instrument), and
2) whether there is contact between the tail-piece and the belly due to high arching.
I find it difficult to imagine that a maker of high-arched instruments of the status of Stainer wouldn't have considered the possibility of the tail-piece touching the belly, and so would have arranged the geometry so that this would not happen. Neck angles and bridge heights were different to modern instruments. Tail-pieces in baroque times weren't quite the elaborate affairs we have now, and fine tuners were unknown. And another "incidentally" - if pegs are fitted properly it is quite possible to tune a steel E from the peg without having a fine tuner fitted - thereby benefiting the tone.
# Posted on December 23rd 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I'm guessing the people who own this violin want more money because of repairs. So what is the general idea of what this fiddle is worth. I've looked all over ebay and craigslist just to see what similiar fiddles are selling for but mostly I found all the ones similiar need a lot of repair and were selling for around $100-$200. And I'm not very educated in what all the parts of the fiddle are named. Sorry but, what is a graft?
# Posted on December 29th 2007 by keelin
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
A graft is sticking something onto something else - a plant cutting onto a different rootstock, a bit of skin from the bum to cover a burn on the face, etc.
When violins of the baroque period were converted to the modern configuration, a new neck was "grafted" onto the fiddle body, and the old pegbox and scroll was carefully cut off the old neck and joined or "grafted" onto the new neck. On a fiddle that has been subjected to this treatment, you can see the join between the new neck and the old pegbox. Sometimes you have to look very carefully to see it.
I was told by my luthier that if a fiddle has no neck graft, you can reckon that it was made later than about 1870-1875.
# Posted on December 31st 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Does anyone know anything about this type of fiddle/violin?
I didn't end up getting that fiddle. I got a different one that I love! It's very loud with a lovely deep sound and dark color. And it was a fair price to make all of you happy ($1,200 U.S.).
Thanks so much for all of your help!
Hannah
# Posted on May 2nd 2008 by keelin