Having recently visited Southern Ireland ( for work ) I saw several artist's perform, Almost all of them sang rebel songs and i thought they were fantastic, Is it wrong do you think for an englishman to enjoy those songs, Or is it wrong even to speak of them ? Anyway it has inspired me to improve my Mandolin playing.
Aah a tricky one dean24, If you like the melody then who's to say you can't learn and play it. With the troubles more or less over (thank god) in Ireland then why not both sides of the coin learn each others music and play it without bothering anyone. However i dare say you would be better playing them out of ears shot of people who might be offended if you catch my drift?
Some Rebel songs do have catchy tunes which can be played melodic but maybe we're too close to the smoking fire to enjoy them publicly. It may be the next generation that can do this Dean my friend.
To be honest it is the lyrics in some of the songs that i think make the song, For example Sean South from Garryowen, The words make the hairs on my neck stand up. The only people I wish not to offend here are the Irish, I was very sad to leave and can't wait to go again.
Some rebel songs, Boolavogue, Four Green Fields, and the anti-colonial song "Only our Rivers" are great songs.
Some of the more modern songs are a bit touchy as yet.
As for being English, the songs should be suitable for you. What had the Troubles got to do with the English?
That is not as daft as it sounds. On a number of occasions I have been showing English friends around Belfast, saying, that's a great pub there, you'll be alright, no-one is bothered about English people, but I am not going in.
I do however dislike rebel songs been sung in a triumphalist manner, and I really, really dislike the Wolfe Tones making a fortune out of the troubles in the North, and shaming the man's memory with naked sectarianism.
BB is right. I have an English accent and I never had any problems or experienced hostility from anyone when I used to visit my cousins in Belfast who lived in Andytown.
There were some parts of the city, though, where I was glad that people didn´t know my name !
I, too, like Sean South as a good march often in demand when you´re playing at ceilis, and the words were certainly stirring, but we had a singer once in our group who came from Limerick and he flatly refused to sing the song if it was requested.
He knew Sean South´s family and had some *very* uncomplimentary things to say about Sean and everything they stood for. Still, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but we used to play it as a march, which made a welcome change from the rigs and the jeels .
I knew the real "leader" who was Sean Garland, as in "and their leader was..........". So like a lot of these songs historically incorrect.
The Souths were traditional Limerick conservatives, Limerick being the place where a Mayor used to go to the local cinema to separate snogging couples.
Correct me if I´m wrong, BB, but Sean South, aligning himself with the provos, was on the extreme right of the political spectrum, in direct line from O´Duffy´s blueshirts.
Whereas Sean Garland was far to the left of the stickies of Gardiner Street.
I wouldn't worry too much about beltng out a few rebel songs. I regularly play/ sing Bobby Sands songs and my neighbours don't react - other than to say that my singing is still ****.
Music is the ultimate peacemaker and if we can all see the beauty in the tunes well, maybe ... just maybe we could learn to live together.
I'm not so sure about music being a peacemaker. Songs have been used to glorify war and violence and thus have been part of the problem. But by now to a lot of people the rebel songs have become detached from their original meaning.
It gets a bit silly when you have Englishmen singing Irish rebel songs to a German audience (as I experienced last Saturday) .
Good point- not much sense in posturing out of context, but maybe that applies to most protest songs. They have their relevance and their sell-by date, and their historical value. After that, it's the music that decides if they sink or swim.
I have to agree with BB when he says that "some of the more modern songs are a bit touchy as yet" but my guess is that with time they will become accepted by most people. Sean South is a case in point referring to an incident in the 1950s whereas the other song (Roddy McCorley) also political and to the same melody never seems to ruffle any feathers.
I'm not convinced that the English are blameless when it comes to the Irish Question and that it's all our fault - take Maggie Thatcher into any pub in the Falls Road if you don't believe me.
We also have to be careful of our history here as just because Limerick may have had a right wing crackpot Lord Mayor it's a bit unfair to assume that the South family would have shared his views. As for right wing versus left wing Republicans, there was only one IRA in the 1950s and the Provisionals weren't formed until the late 1960s. As for the Provos being on the extreme right, this couldn't be farther from the truth as the policies of their political wing, Sinn Féin would, in some circles, be seen as being too far to the left.
Partly it's a question of the Irish image abroad. Rebel songs are part of this. Some people just like them because they are catchy. Others try to market themselves as Irish using the rebel attitude.
In the case I mentioned I don't suspect any political implications. It makes me cringe when people sing songs and completely ignore the origins and meaning. This happens quite often when Germans sing songs in English.
Agreed, Bannerman, that it was anachronistic to suggest that Sean South was a provo when, as you say, the split occurred in the 60s and the Brookeborough incident in which he and Sean Garland were involved took place in 1957.
Much depends on how you define left and right in political terms, but I think there is an area where extreme conservative reactionary attitudes justify violence to achieve their aims, and in this, their methods coincide with some elements of the extreme left, or anarchism/nihilism.
Perhaps all this is an oversimplification but, as you say, it´s not the place to be discussing it.
The tunes in themselves are, generally, fine ones and depending on the venue and/or the audience, I see no reason why most of them can´t be sung - unless of course the singer or the group object to singing them on principle.
It's pobably the way they're performed that matters and that there's no triumphalism or trying to put anyone down involved. Most of these are good songs marking something which did happen in a historical context and tend normally to have super melodies (The Patriot Game, Jame Connolly and Grace are ones that immediately come to mind)
Right on the button, Bannerman. On the matter of the Irish image abroad, mentioned by kuec, I prefer the subtler approach. There's no point falling into the WT trap of perpetuating a certain stereotype, fairly untypical of any Irish people I have known.
These songs all have something Irish America needs desperately, which is why they are still asked for constantly. I often oblige.
What they have is...gumption? Moxie? Balls? Testicular fortitude? Yeah, that's it. We've forgotten how to be the people that threw the tea in the harbor and that knew that the best government was one terrified of the people, not the other way around.
I like the 1798 songs the best because they give me the opportunity to remind folks how Wolfe Tone, Henry Joy, etc. were Protestant rebels for Irish freedom. That's the true spirit that I'm talking about above, people united against nonsense and BS.
When I was at school in Ireland which is around 60 years ago, we sung all those great songs such as - A Nation Once Again - 'The Bold Fenian Men - Who fears to speak of '98 - The Foggy Dew - ' Kelly from Killann - The Croppy Boy and many more in the same vein. At the time we didn't look on them as so called rebel songs but as historical songs. They all had good tunes that you learn to play easy enough on a musical instrument. Sadly over the past forty years many of the tunes have been high jacked and different words added. Roddy Mc Corey became Sean South from Garryowen and James Connolly fitted nicely to the air of the lovely Scottish song 'Dark Lochnagar. Consequently many of the lovely airs that we had played for years were avoided during the recent troubles, both by the Radio Stations and the landlords of many of the venues that I played in at the time. Even the late Dermot O'Brien's hit record 'The Merry Ploughboy' from the sixties (a song we used to sing when we were kids in the forties) fell victim to the ban for obvious reasons.
Regarding English accents in Ireland - I was visiting Cork back in 1998 right about the time the Good Friday accord was going to a vote. While in a pub with obvious nationalist leanings I watched while an English couple, who were very polite, exchanged pleasantries and politics with one of the locals without issue. Moments later a couple from Boston entered - the very embodiment of an Irish American stereo type - loud, proud and wearing a "Disband the RUC tee-shirt. Now THAT accent, coupled with the tee-shirt and the attitude, got several angry glares. As an American, I quietly cringed and looked away.
SWFL and BB make good points about Tone. Wolfe founded the "United" Irishman not a sectarian hate -group. Strange how his name today is associated with a musical group that does mostly one-sided rebel tunes. I wonder what his take would be if he were alive today...
I can identify with your embarassment, JNE. Trouble is, SWFL, (how can I put this politely?)- this is not really about what Irish America needs. Using old rebel songs to summon balls in the supine seems pretty desperate and exploitative to me.
What's really ironic is if you had a group of say 50 people in a room and you belted out some rebel songs/ Tunes you're more likely to offend the Irish people than the English. Anyway if you can get an audience of 50 people to sit and listen in the first place then you're doing ok.
P-K, I suspect you may have misinterpreted SWFL's post.
In a vast cultural melting pot/salad bowl like the US, this music helps bring a sense of pride and cultural identity to many within the community. I know it may be difficult to understand - "why don't you all just see yourself as Americans?" Well we do - but there is always that underlying theme of "tribe" and perseverance that is difficult to articulate. This music fills that void for many - even if they don't fully understand the history behind the message. I think that is what my man SWFL is saying.
Murfbox, South himself was extreme right wing, and Garland became one of us, I mean "The Stickies". From 1998 Sinn Fein pretend to beleft wing, but ask the Classroom Assistants in N.Ireland if that is the case, Minister Ruane being worse than Maggie Thatcher. Provies and Sticks emerged in December 1969, Sean South was New Year's Day, 1957.
The Patriot Game had a nice air, and was about the same incident as Sean South.
I would sing "Only our Rivers" but explain that it could be about any country, as it is an anti-colonial song.
Both sides in the North sing songs to the same air, but with different words. And I agree with Jusa Nutter about two pint patriot Irish Americans, but we cannot condemn all Irish Americans because of a few.
Thanks, JNE- I wasn't meaning to call SWFL personally- sorry if it came across that way (also, I forgot to thank him for flagging the "Coming Into Clover" book a while back- an interesting take on the present situation over there).
I suppose I have a bit of a thing about political song in general-and its potential use as an emotional tool in unfocused rabble-rousing anywhere.
Bliss I used to think the "Two-Pint Patriot" crowd was a fading group of dinosaurs in the US - but then I saw this review on i-Tunes regarding the wonderful CD "Paddy in the Smoke" -
"Irish dancing in an English Pub? First of all that title is a disgrace. The English enslaved and brutalized the Irish for hundreds of years. The fact that Irish jig music would be played in a London pub is rediculous (sic). The English could care less about the Irish. To all my fellow New Yorkers, friends from Boston and back home, happy Saint Patrick's Day...Not Paddy's Day!!! (Paddy is an insult to Irishmen)"
Jusa Nutter's got it nailed, there's no hooting and hollering P-K, no passing of the collection plate. There's much more quiet reflection and usually someone asking me a question about the history, which gives me a chane to bore everyone with my other hobby until another set is struck up. I end up sounding like a history professor. Zzzz...
Glad I remembered I was a fiddler before I became a full fledged folk singer. [shudder] [/sarcasm]
Paddy in the Smoke is a great CD if you enjoy an old style recording of a live session. I love it. Lots of great tunes. The curious review I found on i-Tunes was clearly posted by someone who knows nothing about Irish session music and simply got fired up when he saw "Irish music" and "London" in the same sentence. If he knew anything about the musicians involved he would have known immediately that many of them were Irish immigrants who were living in England. Completely unrelated to anything remotely political.
Having been visiting the US since the late '70s' I came to the conclusion that those with views about Ireland seemed unaware of the most recent political changes ( Bill Clinton excepted, obviously ), and had feelings that went back to the time their ancestors had left, and were fossilized. The realities of two communities, as opposed to their feelings that it was "The Irish" against "The British" was what made the US a fertile ground for IRA collections.
As an idealistic and foolhardy (English) teenager some 40 years ago I worked on building sites for a number of years in Portsmouth and Manchester mostly with Irishmen and some Scots, and when the pubs closed the party carried on in the site huts with unbelievable quantities of bottled Guinness and brandy. I always had a guitar and harmonica, and everyone used to belt out rebel songs to my accompaniment (I learnt them from the Clancy Brothers song book, and still have my copy). A couple of hours after all collapsing in a comatose heap, everyone was up driving diggers and suchlike. I knew people who could play a few tunes on the whistle, but had no idea about the wealth of traditional music then.
Rebel songs are like the Blues, it doesn't matter who sings them so long as the singer understands WHY they need to be sung. Then they'll come out proper. It's about the story that needs told, not about what your accent sounds like, or what your skin colour is. Another good example is legendary mandolin player Bill Monroe. I forget the exact words of a song I once heard him play, but it was about white people keeping him down. He's white, but it didn't matter since the song was sung right. He understood the heart and the suffering behind the words and I think anyone who would fault him for singing it would be a fool. So if you can put heart into the songs, then by all means, go for it!
The way I understand it, many rebel songs tell a *specific* story, often in a way designed to rally the troops, whereas the blues, while it might spring from a specific event or circumstance, conveyed a rather more general sense of oppression or injustice- making it more transferable to other places and other circumstances.
Rebel Songs
Rebel Songs
Having recently visited Southern Ireland ( for work ) I saw several artist's perform, Almost all of them sang rebel songs and i thought they were fantastic, Is it wrong do you think for an englishman to enjoy those songs, Or is it wrong even to speak of them ? Anyway it has inspired me to improve my Mandolin playing.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by dean24
Re: Rebel Songs
Depends whose side yer on
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Rebel Songs
Aah a tricky one dean24, If you like the melody then who's to say you can't learn and play it. With the troubles more or less over (thank god) in Ireland then why not both sides of the coin learn each others music and play it without bothering anyone. However i dare say you would be better playing them out of ears shot of people who might be offended if you catch my drift?
Some Rebel songs do have catchy tunes which can be played melodic but maybe we're too close to the smoking fire to enjoy them publicly. It may be the next generation that can do this Dean my friend.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by upmine3
Re: Rebel Songs
To be honest it is the lyrics in some of the songs that i think make the song, For example Sean South from Garryowen, The words make the hairs on my neck stand up. The only people I wish not to offend here are the Irish, I was very sad to leave and can't wait to go again.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by dean24
Re: Rebel Songs
'kevin barry' was apparently a popular song in some sections of the british army.
i've always liked 'kelly,the boy from killane' both for tune and words.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by biggus dave
Re: Rebel Songs
Some rebel songs, Boolavogue, Four Green Fields, and the anti-colonial song "Only our Rivers" are great songs.
Some of the more modern songs are a bit touchy as yet.
As for being English, the songs should be suitable for you. What had the Troubles got to do with the English?
That is not as daft as it sounds. On a number of occasions I have been showing English friends around Belfast, saying, that's a great pub there, you'll be alright, no-one is bothered about English people, but I am not going in.
I do however dislike rebel songs been sung in a triumphalist manner, and I really, really dislike the Wolfe Tones making a fortune out of the troubles in the North, and shaming the man's memory with naked sectarianism.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Rebel Songs
BB is right. I have an English accent and I never had any problems or experienced hostility from anyone when I used to visit my cousins in Belfast who lived in Andytown.
There were some parts of the city, though, where I was glad that people didn´t know my name !
I, too, like Sean South as a good march often in demand when you´re playing at ceilis, and the words were certainly stirring, but we had a singer once in our group who came from Limerick and he flatly refused to sing the song if it was requested.
He knew Sean South´s family and had some *very* uncomplimentary things to say about Sean and everything they stood for. Still, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but we used to play it as a march, which made a welcome change from the rigs and the jeels .
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Rebel Songs
I knew the real "leader" who was Sean Garland, as in "and their leader was..........". So like a lot of these songs historically incorrect.
The Souths were traditional Limerick conservatives, Limerick being the place where a Mayor used to go to the local cinema to separate snogging couples.
And of course I was right, I am from Andytown
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Rebel Songs
Correct me if I´m wrong, BB, but Sean South, aligning himself with the provos, was on the extreme right of the political spectrum, in direct line from O´Duffy´s blueshirts.
Whereas Sean Garland was far to the left of the stickies of Gardiner Street.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Rebel Songs
I wouldn't worry too much about beltng out a few rebel songs. I regularly play/ sing Bobby Sands songs and my neighbours don't react - other than to say that my singing is still ****.
Music is the ultimate peacemaker and if we can all see the beauty in the tunes well, maybe ... just maybe we could learn to live together.
OK - sermon over. Pass the beer!
D
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by WelshGuy
Re: Rebel Songs
'Songs Without Words'- isn't that what this music is all about?- as I was saying to Daniel only the other day...
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
I'm not so sure about music being a peacemaker. Songs have been used to glorify war and violence and thus have been part of the problem. But by now to a lot of people the rebel songs have become detached from their original meaning.
It gets a bit silly when you have Englishmen singing Irish rebel songs to a German audience (as I experienced last Saturday) .
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by kuec
Re: Rebel Songs
Good point- not much sense in posturing out of context, but maybe that applies to most protest songs. They have their relevance and their sell-by date, and their historical value. After that, it's the music that decides if they sink or swim.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
Perhaps the Englishman in question was a sympathiser, in which case why wouldn't he want to sing them?
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Rebel Songs
I have to agree with BB when he says that "some of the more modern songs are a bit touchy as yet" but my guess is that with time they will become accepted by most people. Sean South is a case in point referring to an incident in the 1950s whereas the other song (Roddy McCorley) also political and to the same melody never seems to ruffle any feathers.
I'm not convinced that the English are blameless when it comes to the Irish Question and that it's all our fault - take Maggie Thatcher into any pub in the Falls Road if you don't believe me.
We also have to be careful of our history here as just because Limerick may have had a right wing crackpot Lord Mayor it's a bit unfair to assume that the South family would have shared his views. As for right wing versus left wing Republicans, there was only one IRA in the 1950s and the Provisionals weren't formed until the late 1960s. As for the Provos being on the extreme right, this couldn't be farther from the truth as the policies of their political wing, Sinn Féin would, in some circles, be seen as being too far to the left.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Rebel Songs
The prospect of taking Maggie Thatcher into a pub anywhere is appalling. Imagine sharing your nuts with her?
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
Completely off-topic, but if anyone knows anything of a maternity clinic existing in Gardiner Street around 1914, could you pm me?
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
Don't worry P-K, I think we're all a bit off-topic here and maybe need to heed Jig's comment over at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16099 regarding religion and politics.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Rebel Songs
Partly it's a question of the Irish image abroad. Rebel songs are part of this. Some people just like them because they are catchy. Others try to market themselves as Irish using the rebel attitude.
In the case I mentioned I don't suspect any political implications. It makes me cringe when people sing songs and completely ignore the origins and meaning. This happens quite often when Germans sing songs in English.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by kuec
Re: Rebel Songs
Agreed, Bannerman, that it was anachronistic to suggest that Sean South was a provo when, as you say, the split occurred in the 60s and the Brookeborough incident in which he and Sean Garland were involved took place in 1957.
Much depends on how you define left and right in political terms, but I think there is an area where extreme conservative reactionary attitudes justify violence to achieve their aims, and in this, their methods coincide with some elements of the extreme left, or anarchism/nihilism.
Perhaps all this is an oversimplification but, as you say, it´s not the place to be discussing it.
The tunes in themselves are, generally, fine ones and depending on the venue and/or the audience, I see no reason why most of them can´t be sung - unless of course the singer or the group object to singing them on principle.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Rebel Songs
It's pobably the way they're performed that matters and that there's no triumphalism or trying to put anyone down involved. Most of these are good songs marking something which did happen in a historical context and tend normally to have super melodies (The Patriot Game, Jame Connolly and Grace are ones that immediately come to mind)
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Rebel Songs
'The Leaving of Liverpool-Sean South-Boys of Wexford' form a good, upbeat set.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
Right on the button, Bannerman. On the matter of the Irish image abroad, mentioned by kuec, I prefer the subtler approach. There's no point falling into the WT trap of perpetuating a certain stereotype, fairly untypical of any Irish people I have known.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
These songs all have something Irish America needs desperately, which is why they are still asked for constantly. I often oblige.
What they have is...gumption? Moxie? Balls? Testicular fortitude? Yeah, that's it. We've forgotten how to be the people that threw the tea in the harbor and that knew that the best government was one terrified of the people, not the other way around.
I like the 1798 songs the best because they give me the opportunity to remind folks how Wolfe Tone, Henry Joy, etc. were Protestant rebels for Irish freedom. That's the true spirit that I'm talking about above, people united against nonsense and BS.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Rebel Songs
BS, aka crap, crap, baloney, etc.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Rebel Songs
Oops, that's a lot of crap.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Rebel Songs
Er...crap, for that matter. That was the translation I was looking form, sorry, carry on.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Rebel Songs
In the interests of balance, I think you should spend your next hols in Nornirn and listen to some Nationalist songs, then make your mind up.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Rebel Songs
When I was at school in Ireland which is around 60 years ago, we sung all those great songs such as - A Nation Once Again - 'The Bold Fenian Men - Who fears to speak of '98 - The Foggy Dew - ' Kelly from Killann - The Croppy Boy and many more in the same vein. At the time we didn't look on them as so called rebel songs but as historical songs. They all had good tunes that you learn to play easy enough on a musical instrument. Sadly over the past forty years many of the tunes have been high jacked and different words added. Roddy Mc Corey became Sean South from Garryowen and James Connolly fitted nicely to the air of the lovely Scottish song 'Dark Lochnagar. Consequently many of the lovely airs that we had played for years were avoided during the recent troubles, both by the Radio Stations and the landlords of many of the venues that I played in at the time. Even the late Dermot O'Brien's hit record 'The Merry Ploughboy' from the sixties (a song we used to sing when we were kids in the forties) fell victim to the ban for obvious reasons.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Free Reed
Re: Rebel Songs
Regarding English accents in Ireland - I was visiting Cork back in 1998 right about the time the Good Friday accord was going to a vote. While in a pub with obvious nationalist leanings I watched while an English couple, who were very polite, exchanged pleasantries and politics with one of the locals without issue. Moments later a couple from Boston entered - the very embodiment of an Irish American stereo type - loud, proud and wearing a "Disband the RUC tee-shirt. Now THAT accent, coupled with the tee-shirt and the attitude, got several angry glares. As an American, I quietly cringed and looked away.
SWFL and BB make good points about Tone. Wolfe founded the "United" Irishman not a sectarian hate -group. Strange how his name today is associated with a musical group that does mostly one-sided rebel tunes. I wonder what his take would be if he were alive today...
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Rebel Songs
I can identify with your embarassment, JNE. Trouble is, SWFL, (how can I put this politely?)- this is not really about what Irish America needs. Using old rebel songs to summon balls in the supine seems pretty desperate and exploitative to me.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
What's really ironic is if you had a group of say 50 people in a room and you belted out some rebel songs/ Tunes you're more likely to offend the Irish people than the English. Anyway if you can get an audience of 50 people to sit and listen in the first place then you're doing ok.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by upmine3
Re: Rebel Songs
P-K, I suspect you may have misinterpreted SWFL's post.
In a vast cultural melting pot/salad bowl like the US, this music helps bring a sense of pride and cultural identity to many within the community. I know it may be difficult to understand - "why don't you all just see yourself as Americans?" Well we do - but there is always that underlying theme of "tribe" and perseverance that is difficult to articulate. This music fills that void for many - even if they don't fully understand the history behind the message. I think that is what my man SWFL is saying.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Rebel Songs
Murfbox, South himself was extreme right wing, and Garland became one of us, I mean "The Stickies". From 1998 Sinn Fein pretend to beleft wing, but ask the Classroom Assistants in N.Ireland if that is the case, Minister Ruane being worse than Maggie Thatcher. Provies and Sticks emerged in December 1969, Sean South was New Year's Day, 1957.
The Patriot Game had a nice air, and was about the same incident as Sean South.
I would sing "Only our Rivers" but explain that it could be about any country, as it is an anti-colonial song.
Both sides in the North sing songs to the same air, but with different words. And I agree with Jusa Nutter about two pint patriot Irish Americans, but we cannot condemn all Irish Americans because of a few.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Rebel Songs
Thanks, JNE- I wasn't meaning to call SWFL personally- sorry if it came across that way (also, I forgot to thank him for flagging the "Coming Into Clover" book a while back- an interesting take on the present situation over there).
I suppose I have a bit of a thing about political song in general-and its potential use as an emotional tool in unfocused rabble-rousing anywhere.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
Bliss I used to think the "Two-Pint Patriot" crowd was a fading group of dinosaurs in the US - but then I saw this review on i-Tunes regarding the wonderful CD "Paddy in the Smoke" -
"Irish dancing in an English Pub? First of all that title is a disgrace. The English enslaved and brutalized the Irish for hundreds of years. The fact that Irish jig music would be played in a London pub is rediculous (sic). The English could care less about the Irish. To all my fellow New Yorkers, friends from Boston and back home, happy Saint Patrick's Day...Not Paddy's Day!!! (Paddy is an insult to Irishmen)"
I'll let you all draw you own conclusions.
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Rebel Songs
Jusa Nutter's got it nailed, there's no hooting and hollering P-K, no passing of the collection plate. There's much more quiet reflection and usually someone asking me a question about the history, which gives me a chane to bore everyone with my other hobby until another set is struck up. I end up sounding like a history professor. Zzzz...
Glad I remembered I was a fiddler before I became a full fledged folk singer. [shudder] [/sarcasm]
# Posted on December 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
England?
The English must be ghastly even now.
Paddy in Smoke is on a list of CDs I planned to purchase.
Is it a disgrace?
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Rebel Songs
Paddy in the Smoke is a great CD if you enjoy an old style recording of a live session. I love it. Lots of great tunes. The curious review I found on i-Tunes was clearly posted by someone who knows nothing about Irish session music and simply got fired up when he saw "Irish music" and "London" in the same sentence. If he knew anything about the musicians involved he would have known immediately that many of them were Irish immigrants who were living in England. Completely unrelated to anything remotely political.
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Rebel Songs
One of my few boasts, as "modesty" is my middle name, is that I played in the Favourite pub in London, and that was before my bodhran days.
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Rebel Songs
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/281
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by biggus dave
Re: Rebel Songs
Having been visiting the US since the late '70s' I came to the conclusion that those with views about Ireland seemed unaware of the most recent political changes ( Bill Clinton excepted, obviously ), and had feelings that went back to the time their ancestors had left, and were fossilized. The realities of two communities, as opposed to their feelings that it was "The Irish" against "The British" was what made the US a fertile ground for IRA collections.
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Rebel Songs
As an idealistic and foolhardy (English) teenager some 40 years ago I worked on building sites for a number of years in Portsmouth and Manchester mostly with Irishmen and some Scots, and when the pubs closed the party carried on in the site huts with unbelievable quantities of bottled Guinness and brandy. I always had a guitar and harmonica, and everyone used to belt out rebel songs to my accompaniment (I learnt them from the Clancy Brothers song book, and still have my copy). A couple of hours after all collapsing in a comatose heap, everyone was up driving diggers and suchlike. I knew people who could play a few tunes on the whistle, but had no idea about the wealth of traditional music then.
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Rebel Songs
Rebel songs are like the Blues, it doesn't matter who sings them so long as the singer understands WHY they need to be sung. Then they'll come out proper. It's about the story that needs told, not about what your accent sounds like, or what your skin colour is. Another good example is legendary mandolin player Bill Monroe. I forget the exact words of a song I once heard him play, but it was about white people keeping him down. He's white, but it didn't matter since the song was sung right. He understood the heart and the suffering behind the words and I think anyone who would fault him for singing it would be a fool. So if you can put heart into the songs, then by all means, go for it!
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by mistercliff
Re: Rebel Songs
The way I understand it, many rebel songs tell a *specific* story, often in a way designed to rally the troops, whereas the blues, while it might spring from a specific event or circumstance, conveyed a rather more general sense of oppression or injustice- making it more transferable to other places and other circumstances.
# Posted on December 17th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Rebel Songs
Listen to songs by Leadbelly or Woody Guthrie.
For instance '1913 Christmas Massacre'.
# Posted on December 17th 2007 by Ben Steen