I've been playing fiddle for several years now and I still have difficulty with intonation on the e string; on the a note and especially on the b note. My fingers just don't want to consistently come down in the same spots. I've been playing ~ 7years. I play some scales and phrases for practice but it seems when I get to the high notes while playing a tune, I just can't nail 'em. My hand doesn't feel as comfortable while playing on the e string as it does on the other strings. Any sympathizers out there? Any suggestions or hints? Thanks
Especially the b is hard; since your a is a problem as well, I guess this might have something to do with your hand turned too much towards the 1st finger; am I right that your a en b are usually flat/too low? Try turning the hand towards the 4th finger; you won't have to stretch so much anymore. Of course this takes a bit time to settle.
When you're playing the b or the a do you have any other fingers down on the string behind it? If you do, that can stiffen the hand and prevent the instant necessary adjustment of the playing finger to get the note in tune. It helps a lot, I find, when approaching notes high up the fingerboard to mentally hear the note and to (mentally) visualise your finger on it. This is an old trick that orchestral violinists and cellists use if they've got to hit a note that's in the middle of the top half of the string.
As an interim measure, may I dare suggest something that beginners often use - a small bit of sticky tape discretely stuck (so colorless is best!) to the fingerboard at the b position so that your finger can feel it.
Kato Havas's New Approach has a lot to say about this.
Instead ob turning your ar anticlickwise, have your left palm directly facing you.
To get an effective b, take the other finger off the string, and bend your hand backward.
It is tricky, but not as tricky as it may seem. Yet, to get a b this way you have to play "thoroughfully" in Kato Havas's fashion, which I reccomend; it was very effective for me, at least.
Kato Havas's book "Stage fright" deals with this topic.
Try and check www.katohavas.com.
I do tend to play flat, especially on the b note. Maybe it is the positioning of my hand. Henk, when you say "turn your hand towards the 4th finger", do you mean that your palm will open up to face more toward your face or rather will close down more and your palm will face more off your left shoulder? And Trevor, I do tend to like to keep my g note sort of anchored because you inevitably come back down to it. Plus it gives me something to "gauge the spread of my fingers" as I reach for the b note. Thanks for your replies so far.
Make sure your hand, arm and back posture is so that your fingers can stand up straight no matter what string you're playing on. This may mean pulling your elbow in towards your bow arm as you reach the G string, and relaxing your elbow and using your wrist and forearm muscles to reach the E string. Once you can stand your fingers up straight and are using only the tips of your fingers to play the notes, you should have an easier time getting in tune.
Pat, it was not a rotation of the hand I meant, but a position of the hand a tiny bit further up the neck, so that you don't have to stretch your 4th finger that much; on the contrary, you'll have to stretch you 1st finger a bit! Be sure not to play in the so called half position (hope this term means anything to you).
Nutsmuggler is right, Kato Havas is very good at this point (and many others)!
Sometime ago I came across a reel, the name of which for the life of me I can't remember, and what struck me was that it had in the B part the sequence "gbab gbab" when "fbab fbab" would have made more musical sense in that particular context. I wonder if whoever came up with "gbab" might have had problems with the stretches involved in playing "fbab" accurately at speed. Just a thought.
Trevor
It's a problem I still have in some tunes after more than 10 years of playing. But it has got better. The more I relax and think, hey, I don't have to play that tune out at a session, then the greater the improvement. This approach has helped a lot, and as other aspects of my playing have improved so has my ability to get that b and sometimes the other 4th finger notes on the other strings too.
Thanks for the comments. They've certainly helped me out as well!
Pat, if you want to play in tune anywhere on the fiddle, pay attention to your left thumb. Many of my students find they can play in tune more easily, with hardly a thought about it if their thumb is relaxed, and they just "think in tune" (which we all do, of course. It also helps not to play too fast. We've all heard of the glories of slow practise, and there's mention of it somewhere back in the discussions on this great site.
Best luck!
Helen
Hi Pat.. Henk's idea of shifting the left thumb very slightly up the neck worked very well for me. The other thing that helped my confidence on the e string was when my teacher started me playing 3 octave g scales where you wind up way up the neck. Once I started concentrating on the intonation of those very high notes the lower notes didn't seem to be a problem anymore. Good luck !
Try leaving your first finger on the b note of the a string and at the same time stretch your little finger to the b note on the e string and play both strings...it may give you an idea of whether your placement should go up or down :{)
Playing in tune with 4th finger: Kato Havas' concept (see my post in "Kato Havas and Irish Fiddle" discussion) is to have the neck rest on the ball of the thumb, at least somewhat. This actually moves your 4th finger toward its intended sound. Also allows the hand to spread farther and naturally, instead of trying to spread the fingers sideways as is usual.
I find, as Bob noted above, that the thumb (ie: ball of the thumb) must be under the finger(s) sounding. This is the real answer, and espec with the Gypsy Hand works for all sounds except when the body of the instr gets in the way higher up (ie: for most trad fiddle musics). Once this is understood by your LH, the high notes are easy. As Kato says": It's either easy or it's impossible.
Also helps (see my Kato Havas post) to have fingers touching strings but not string touching fingerboard. Release. The hands are more open than one might imagine.
No stretching! ouch. When the hand moves with the sounds played, all sounds are possible. Not necessary to turn the wrist to play music.
Tape is not good. Play by hearing and by feel. Let Suzuki and others play by sight - it doesn't work. This is one reason trad players have more heart in their playing - reading notation is an exterior activity, thus musicmaking from notation tends to be an exterior activity (tho needn't be). - vlnplyr
Here's a little experiment. Stand relaxed with your arms hanging loose and the hands relaxed. The hands should be gently curved when they are relaxed. Now as gently as possible touch a finger with the thumb. The finger you touch is almost certain to be the second finger, which is the longest and strongest of the fingers.
It therefore makes sense to me when holding the fiddle to have the thumb and second finger opposed to each other (my left hand position is like this when I play the cello), which gives the maximum stability to the hand and enables a reach (not a "stretch"!) of the 4th finger to that high B (and beyond) easy. If you have the thumb opposed to the first finger, then that reach will indeed feel difficult.
The other night during a session the lights briefly went out in the pub except for a couple of dim emergency bulbs. We continued playing as if nothing had happened, and a voice from the bar area plaintively asked "how can they play in the dark?"
Playing in tune on E string
Playing in tune on E string
I've been playing fiddle for several years now and I still have difficulty with intonation on the e string; on the a note and especially on the b note. My fingers just don't want to consistently come down in the same spots. I've been playing ~ 7years. I play some scales and phrases for practice but it seems when I get to the high notes while playing a tune, I just can't nail 'em. My hand doesn't feel as comfortable while playing on the e string as it does on the other strings. Any sympathizers out there? Any suggestions or hints? Thanks
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Pat
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Especially the b is hard; since your a is a problem as well, I guess this might have something to do with your hand turned too much towards the 1st finger; am I right that your a en b are usually flat/too low? Try turning the hand towards the 4th finger; you won't have to stretch so much anymore. Of course this takes a bit time to settle.
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Henk Bos
Re: Playing in tune on E string
When you're playing the b or the a do you have any other fingers down on the string behind it? If you do, that can stiffen the hand and prevent the instant necessary adjustment of the playing finger to get the note in tune. It helps a lot, I find, when approaching notes high up the fingerboard to mentally hear the note and to (mentally) visualise your finger on it. This is an old trick that orchestral violinists and cellists use if they've got to hit a note that's in the middle of the top half of the string.
As an interim measure, may I dare suggest something that beginners often use - a small bit of sticky tape discretely stuck (so colorless is best!) to the fingerboard at the b position so that your finger can feel it.
Trevor
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Kato Havas's New Approach has a lot to say about this.
Instead ob turning your ar anticlickwise, have your left palm directly facing you.
To get an effective b, take the other finger off the string, and bend your hand backward.
It is tricky, but not as tricky as it may seem. Yet, to get a b this way you have to play "thoroughfully" in Kato Havas's fashion, which I reccomend; it was very effective for me, at least.
Kato Havas's book "Stage fright" deals with this topic.
Try and check www.katohavas.com.
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by nutsmuggler
Re: Playing in tune on E string
I do tend to play flat, especially on the b note. Maybe it is the positioning of my hand. Henk, when you say "turn your hand towards the 4th finger", do you mean that your palm will open up to face more toward your face or rather will close down more and your palm will face more off your left shoulder? And Trevor, I do tend to like to keep my g note sort of anchored because you inevitably come back down to it. Plus it gives me something to "gauge the spread of my fingers" as I reach for the b note. Thanks for your replies so far.
# Posted on April 19th 2003 by Pat
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Make sure your hand, arm and back posture is so that your fingers can stand up straight no matter what string you're playing on. This may mean pulling your elbow in towards your bow arm as you reach the G string, and relaxing your elbow and using your wrist and forearm muscles to reach the E string. Once you can stand your fingers up straight and are using only the tips of your fingers to play the notes, you should have an easier time getting in tune.
Cara
# Posted on April 19th 2003 by carafiddle
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Pat, it was not a rotation of the hand I meant, but a position of the hand a tiny bit further up the neck, so that you don't have to stretch your 4th finger that much; on the contrary, you'll have to stretch you 1st finger a bit! Be sure not to play in the so called half position (hope this term means anything to you).
Nutsmuggler is right, Kato Havas is very good at this point (and many others)!
# Posted on April 19th 2003 by Henk Bos
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Sometime ago I came across a reel, the name of which for the life of me I can't remember, and what struck me was that it had in the B part the sequence "gbab gbab" when "fbab fbab" would have made more musical sense in that particular context. I wonder if whoever came up with "gbab" might have had problems with the stretches involved in playing "fbab" accurately at speed. Just a thought.
Trevor
# Posted on April 19th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Playing in tune on E string
It's a problem I still have in some tunes after more than 10 years of playing. But it has got better. The more I relax and think, hey, I don't have to play that tune out at a session, then the greater the improvement. This approach has helped a lot, and as other aspects of my playing have improved so has my ability to get that b and sometimes the other 4th finger notes on the other strings too.
Thanks for the comments. They've certainly helped me out as well!
# Posted on April 20th 2003 by Fiiddle R
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Pat, if you want to play in tune anywhere on the fiddle, pay attention to your left thumb. Many of my students find they can play in tune more easily, with hardly a thought about it if their thumb is relaxed, and they just "think in tune" (which we all do, of course. It also helps not to play too fast. We've all heard of the glories of slow practise, and there's mention of it somewhere back in the discussions on this great site.
Best luck!
Helen
# Posted on April 20th 2003 by fiddlefingers
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Hi Pat.. Henk's idea of shifting the left thumb very slightly up the neck worked very well for me. The other thing that helped my confidence on the e string was when my teacher started me playing 3 octave g scales where you wind up way up the neck. Once I started concentrating on the intonation of those very high notes the lower notes didn't seem to be a problem anymore. Good luck !
Bob
# Posted on April 20th 2003 by bmcivor
Re: Playing in tune on E string
If you know your not playing in tune, tour nine tenths of the way there.
# Posted on April 21st 2003 by ...
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Try leaving your first finger on the b note of the a string and at the same time stretch your little finger to the b note on the e string and play both strings...it may give you an idea of whether your placement should go up or down :{)
# Posted on April 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Playing in tune with 4th finger: Kato Havas' concept (see my post in "Kato Havas and Irish Fiddle" discussion) is to have the neck rest on the ball of the thumb, at least somewhat. This actually moves your 4th finger toward its intended sound. Also allows the hand to spread farther and naturally, instead of trying to spread the fingers sideways as is usual.
I find, as Bob noted above, that the thumb (ie: ball of the thumb) must be under the finger(s) sounding. This is the real answer, and espec with the Gypsy Hand works for all sounds except when the body of the instr gets in the way higher up (ie: for most trad fiddle musics). Once this is understood by your LH, the high notes are easy. As Kato says": It's either easy or it's impossible.
Also helps (see my Kato Havas post) to have fingers touching strings but not string touching fingerboard. Release. The hands are more open than one might imagine.
No stretching! ouch. When the hand moves with the sounds played, all sounds are possible. Not necessary to turn the wrist to play music.
Tape is not good. Play by hearing and by feel. Let Suzuki and others play by sight - it doesn't work. This is one reason trad players have more heart in their playing - reading notation is an exterior activity, thus musicmaking from notation tends to be an exterior activity (tho needn't be). - vlnplyr
# Posted on December 30th 2003 by vlnplyr
Re: Playing in tune on E string
Here's a little experiment. Stand relaxed with your arms hanging loose and the hands relaxed. The hands should be gently curved when they are relaxed. Now as gently as possible touch a finger with the thumb. The finger you touch is almost certain to be the second finger, which is the longest and strongest of the fingers.
It therefore makes sense to me when holding the fiddle to have the thumb and second finger opposed to each other (my left hand position is like this when I play the cello), which gives the maximum stability to the hand and enables a reach (not a "stretch"!) of the 4th finger to that high B (and beyond) easy. If you have the thumb opposed to the first finger, then that reach will indeed feel difficult.
Trevor
# Posted on December 30th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Playing in tune on E string
The other night during a session the lights briefly went out in the pub except for a couple of dim emergency bulbs. We continued playing as if nothing had happened, and a voice from the bar area plaintively asked "how can they play in the dark?"
Trevor
# Posted on December 30th 2003 by Trevor Jennings