It's an ornamentation symbol, in this case meaning a roll. I would tend to play a long roll in this particular case (g-f-g-A-g), but it's really open to interpretation.
In the example you gave, fiddler94, the roll would be played E F E D E, with the first E being held slightly longer than the rest and the second note being played either with the second finger (F) or the third finger (making it a G), and the second note is played shorter, as a grace note. Hope that makes sense.
The roll could be played several ways - I would probably play it differently for each repetition.
Note that the annotation doesn't necessarily indicate a particular note sequence,
I prefer the long roll starting down e-d-e-f#-e (note to self - read the sheet music, Eno ), which I would play with even note spacing. Starting the roll down instead of up matches the following sequence of notes better to my ear.
You could also roll the way FidDLe01 does - either giving it the uneven spacing or even spacing depending on which takes your fancy.
As a box player I might well cut it down from the f# (play a very short f# before the dotted crotchet e) which tends to emphasise the dotted note. I would only do this once in the set, though, since it's quite a powerful effect and gets too much with repetition.
Try all of these and see which one sounds best to you - it is a matter of taste after all. Try to avoid the trap of only learning one way of playing the tune as it becomes very restrictive in the long run and gets in the way when you start playing with others.
Fiddler94. There is very little chance you will be able to play a roll from a verbal description or the notation. A competent teacher of traditional music is your best bet. Failing this just listen, but it will take time.
My advice is not to worry about these ornaments for a few years, just get the tunes.
There are a wide range of possible ornaments you can use as an alternative to the note as written.
A top notch player like Tony MacMahon will ornament his tunes in 'unlikely' places, leaving notes commonly ornamented and straight while finding interesting and unusual places to express his individuality.
The other thing is that it is good practice to not repeat an ornament too much. Use variety to add dynamics.
Once again, Learn the basic melody first. The ornaments will come naturally in their own time. There must be some learner DVD's out there to help you learn by ear. Each phrase would be played slowly and carefully.
Welcome to the session and the wonderful world of Traditional Irish Music.
Enjoy.
There are two schools of thought here. One is the advice to lay off rolls "for a few years". But they are not hard, just a simple flick of the fingers, once you get used to it. And by your interest in the first place, I think you should carry it through. They are part of the music, and if you want to play the music, then go ahead.
As far as aural sources for rolls go, you'd be hard pressed to find a decent recording of Maudabawn Chapel without them.
Fair enough Llig i wouldnt argue with that. There are and were however plenty of great players who have never made a recording.
An aural tradition does'nt mean listening to CD's and learning from them! [ although i am not discounting this] It means sitting down with someone and learning a tune through human contact, and later sitting in a session and picking a tune up from enough exposure. Direct transmission.
All though its great to aspire to play like the greats we hear on tape, they are not the be all and end all of ITM.
you know what, I just listened to Maureen Fitzpatrick playing Maudabawn Chapel (on The Music of Ed Reavy, http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1060
), which happens to be my favorite recording of this tune, and she only has three rolls in the whole thing. Sometimes she substitutes trebles, cuts, or just long notes in the same spots.
fiddler94, one thing to be careful of when you're learning a tune from sheet music is almost always, the notes and especially the ornamentation markers are just a *guide* for how you're supposed to play the tune. If you play a roll on measure 11 line three *every* time, the you won't be varying the tune every time through, and it will sound repetitive and probably a little boring. You want to make it interesting. The best way to get a feel for how to use written music is to have a trad teacher go through and show you how they approach it, but if you're doing it on your own, you'll learn a lot by just comparing the music with recorded versions (and for this tune, try to listen to the way it's played by Kevin Burke, Frankie Gavin, or Sean Ryan), and note the differences between what you hear and what you see. Most of the time when I find a written version of a tune, it's pretty different from the tune I know in my head, sometimes so much so that I have to re-transcribe it so that I have a written version that I can work with. Good luck, and come back here for suggestions if you have any trouble.
"My advice is not to worry about these ornaments for a few years, just get the tunes"
I've been pondering this---jig, you can't be serious. Don't learn rolls *for a few years*?? You can't possibly have ever taught anyone how to play. I've only been playing a year and a half now, but if my teacher hadn't taught me any ornaments by now I would have definitely felt like I had the wrong teacher. He had me learning slurs in my second week! (all it is is bow distribution, which is as basic as it gets anyway). I've always had to at least *try* to put in ornaments. The only way you can play with them is by practicing them in. Sure, I practice without them to really focus on rhythm, but they have to go back in afterwards. Even one or two can have a nice effect on a tune---you don't have to play scads of them.
How old are you Kennedy?
I didnt say dont learn how to do rolls ,I keep saying dont bother trying to put them into the tunes untill you can play the tune. Thats my advice and i stick to it.
For some one who has been playing for a year or so you seem very sure. You may well feel this;
>>if my teacher hadn't taught me any ornaments by now I would have definitely felt like I had the wrong teacher.<<
But with 18months experience what makes you think you even know what you need.?
There is often a big difference between what you think you need, and what you need.
I can asure you, as someone who has been playing trad for 25 years i do know what i am talking about.
The rolls as Llig says are simple things, in a way so are the tunes. I suggest people concentrate on the tunes because that is what matters. The rolls etc are the some of extra bits we use to add 'the personal touch'. They are not integral to the tune , but to the music of advanced players. Why try to be something you are not?
If you can play your tunes perfectly at the right pace with good spirit, and technique you dont need the extra bits anyhow!
Fair enough we all want to sound like our role models, there is nothing wrong with that but just a cursory look at you tube will show some of the horrendous attempts at playing ITM!
You want to sound like those?
No i dont think so. so learn your tunes, practice your scales. If you think you are ready after 2 weeks or 2 years Ok Go for it, its up to you. You can post it up on you tube and join the crowd.
But I suggest you concentrate on intonation and rhythm.
Yeah, well, jig, my teacher has been playing for 25 years, so I think *he* knows what he’s doing, and he’s the one who makes me play my tunes with ornaments even when I’m not feeling so confident and would rather be lazy and not try them that way.
“I didnt say dont learn how to do rolls ,I keep saying dont bother trying to put them into the tunes untill you can play the tune”
So how are you supposed to learn how to play rolls if you don’t put them into the tunes? Just play them by themselves? That’s only learning them halfway. You need to put them in the tunes to get a feel for how they really need to be played, they need to be carried along with the rhythm and “rolled” just right so that they accentuate the flow of the tune.
Erm, Jig, see this is what people keep getting on your case about:
"I can asure you, as someone who has been playing trad for 25 years i do know what i am talking about."
See, there are people here who've played this music just as long or longer, to the highest level, and their approach to the music differs from yours. Their opinions may also differ from yours.
What's odd to me--and it makes me question just how welcome you'd be in any decent session, too--is how you persist in coming across as so dogmatic and arrogant, in spite of how many times others here have called you on it. That's a bit like coming to the same session every week and commandeering the tunes even though, week after week, the people who started the session years before you ask you not to start all the sets, to let someone else jump in.
I'm sure someone with your esteemed years of experience would agree that tune hogs are no fun for the other sessioneers.
Kennedy (warning: jig-induced credential rattling follows), I've played Irish fiddle for nearly 30 years, and have been teaching it for longer than Jig has played fiddle. I've taught at music shops, as part of festivals, and at a college. In fact, I've been teaching music professionally since I was 15--that's coming up on 34 years now.
I've always introduced rolls and other articulations as soon as the student is ready for them. (Which is usually within a month or two of weekly lessons.)
I usually start with cuts because they're relatively easy to do and they are a basic building block for rolls. I encourage students to practice them separate from the tune, but I show them how to put a cut, roll, etc., into one easy phrase of a tune so they can also practice the roll in context, even if it's just playing one or two bars of music over and over. Of course, when they feel comfortable, they can plug the articulation into the tune.
Sure, sone people pick i t up quicker than others, but I've never had a student not be able to learn cuts and rolls within their first year of learning fiddle--and I'm talking all ages (from 6 to 60), and including people who've never held a fiddle before.
Zina's absolutely right about 4/4 implying that the 1st beat of the 4 is the strongest, and the 3rd less so. Anyone who's been playing trad for any length of time will know that the accents may come on any of the 4 beats in trad, and it's up to the musician to be sensitive enough to the phrasing of the tune to know which one to emphasize.
The 4/4 metre also implies equally divided beats into 8 quavers like di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di. No swing. Listen to any classical music written in quavers like that and you'll not find any swing, unless it's transcribed dotted, and even then it's a very different kind of feel.
Jig hasn't taken into account that there is a way of transcribing a kind of swing in classical: the 12/8 metre, which (and this is important for the discussion) also has 4 beats to the bar. But 12/8 doesn't sound like a reel either, if you're thinking of yourself as "playing a 12/8 tune" as opposed to simply "playing a reel, how reels should be played".
Bottom line is, there might be a convention of sorts to write in common time 4/4, but that's not even consistent. There are some older publications with reels written in 2/4 (see Ryan/Cole's from the late 1800s or early 1900s for examples) and plenty sources with them written in 2/2.
It really is meaningless to talk about reels being in 4/4 to anyone - be they melody players or guitarists or bodhran players. Trad musicians should be "playing in a rhythm that's sensitive to what other musicians around them in the session are doing", not "playing in 4/4".
Sorry to encourage further discussion on the metre issue with this post, but I do worry that people reading through threads like this will take it as read that there's anything to be learnt from talking about trad in terms of 4/4 or whatever. There's simply nothing to be gained from it at all. It's gotta be said...
But what do I know, I live in Australia so apparently I shouldn't have an opinion on this music.
Will, I figured as much (I’ve often suspected that you are, in fact, my teacher, and just pretending to be from Montana). That’s why all this stuff I’ve been reading from jig didn’t sound right---the idea that only advanced players should bother with ornaments---because I’m far from advanced and I can do a few of them already. Maybe not perfectly all the time, but sometimes they do come out right, at speed, which is very cool when it happens. And I know several other beginners who can do the same.
Firstly kennedy, did he teach you rolls because>>if my teacher hadn't taught me any ornaments by now I would have definitely felt like I had the wrong teacher<>
Its a sad fact that people will compromise when it comes to earning a living. But none the less true.
Dow >>It really is meaningless to talk about reels being in 4/4 to anyone << That your opinion but its certainly not a fact.
Tat- well great, at last someone who knows a thing or two. I have but stated my position. if no one counters that with valid reasons then others are entitled to consider that opinion justified.
AS you have been doing exactly what i argue against then you will obviously feel that my view is unfounded, I accept that you have , presumably been successful in your methods. congratulations.
We have both been playing 30+ years, we have different approaches. If you feel your methods work then good for you. They run counter to everything i have learnt but so be it, work away. Im quite sure there are plenty other teachers who do the same.
Its not a question of whether some one can learn the mechanics of a cut or a roll, they are simple enough. but where and how do you use them?
To my mind its the tune that matters. Im sure your not going to tell me you can have your students playing tunes with spirit and technique in a year are you?
Exactly . the cuts and rolls can simply hinder the development of the tunes.
For the record i would not suggest a student learns tune untill they can make a nice sound and play their scales. If they want to play the tunes badly they will have to go to another teacher. i am not interested personally. I dont need to compromise my art for commercial success
Dow ->>I live in Australia so apparently I shouldn't have an opinion on this music.<<
It doesn't matter where you are from but your views on the bodhran certainly would make me doubt the validity of other things you say, However to answer this;
>>Jig hasn't taken into account that there is a way of transcribing a kind of swing in classical: the 12/8 metre, which (and this is important for the discussion) also has 4 beats to the bar. But 12/8 doesn't sound like a reel either, if you're thinking of yourself as "playing a 12/8 tune" as opposed to simply "playing a reel, how reels should be played".
What are you on about? Reels? 12/8? Have you actually got the faintest idea? You dont know me so actually you have no idea.Anyhow this is compound time, not 4/4 ? Im sorry you've lost me there. you want to explain what you mean?
All these comments about arrogance.... Really lads don't you know the difference between arrogance and confidence? Well there is a big difference i can assure you.
Whatever.
>Does anyone know what those little dashes (the look like tildes in Spanish) are? What do they do to the way the note is played?
>(example- measure 11 on line three of Maudabawn Chapel)
>Maya : )
As everyone said, they represent a roll (and there are more than one kind). The hard thing is if you are used to sheet music but not Irish music, just having someone tell you they are rolls isn't much help. And what would you substitute instead of the roll if you didn't want to play one? You won't know unless you learn more about the music and how it's played and what it sounds like.
I found one thing helpful was to look up "fake book" on wikipedia. That puts the sheet music into proper perspective.
Then get a good book on Irish fiddle that has a CD and listen to the examples on the CD. You'll start to understand what rolls really are.
“did he teach you rolls because>>if my teacher hadn't taught me any ornaments by now I would have definitely felt like I had the wrong teacher<>…its a sad fact that people will compromise when it comes to earning a living”
Jig that is so insulting---to imply that any teacher who teaches ornaments to a beginner is doing it *for the money*! He teaches them to me *because I need to know how to play them*. And I can play them! I can also do cuts and slides and even that slow hammer-on thingy lazyhound was talking about recently. And so can several other beginners I know! Why is this so incomprehensible to you???
Maya as you grow up & learn more about Irish traditional music could you please show respect to your fellow musicians?
Reconciliation is highly under-rated by the older generation.
Follow the advice of each of the fiddlers above. And then you decide what sounds best. Do what you are able now & just remember, if you are a good musician, you will continue to learn things the rest of your life.
Cheers!
The ridiculous thing is that how long someone has been playing isn't always an accurate barometer of their abilities and skills as a player, and probably says even less about their abilities as a teacher.
A good music teacher has to be able to analyze the elements that go into making good music, and then synthesize these back into a sensible progression for students. And you better be able to tailor that progression to suit different students and learning styles. And articulate and demonstrate the concepts and techniques in ways that are easy for the student to grasp and incorporate in their own playing.
All this takes a flair for logic, organization, analysis and synthesis, and creativity. Not to mention some talent as a musician.
Really good musicians are not uncommon. Really good teachers are rare. I've been lucky to learn from some great teachers.
Cheshire regardless of how 'much' you say you always have the ability hit the nail on the head squarely.
"Really good teachers are rare."
Sometimes you have to glean the best from the worst.
Sometimes you get very lucky.
Find the good stuff.
Tat I am really not interested in either arguing with you over this matter. If you can teach a beginner to play the fiddle with good spirit and technique in a year you really are a master instructor. I will try to suspend my incredulity .
Are you saying you are Kennedy's teacher then? As i was referring to him or her. There is no doubt that some teacher's do that, they give the student what the student wants whether that is the best thing for the student or not. Money talks. I am truly glad that you do not do this, another point in your favor.
In a year? Perhaps we have a different definition of drive and lift? Of course it all depends on how much they practice. but your telling me a year for a kid starting their first instrument, forgive me if i sound skeptical,.
Jig, why don't you tell us about your teaching experience then, and how you came by all the sage knowledge that you have. How many years have you taught? How many students? What ages? Forgive me for my own skepticism, but you haven't exactly given us any examples that prove your points. YouTube clips don't count because you never know what kind of teacher the person had, or even if they're self taught.
Hey I'm not arguing! I'm questioning your statement, thats alright isn't it? Asking for clarification... thats all.
Its no loss to me any how, I take pride in being realistic and questioning everything.
I think its the other way round actually It would be my loss if I did'nt.
'Its no loss to me any how, I take pride in being realistic and questioning everything. I think its the other way round actually It would be my loss if I did'nt.'
I've read this five times and I still don't have a clue what it means. Still, that's Jig personified.
Thanks MacCruiskeen for the new term ~ fallibilities.
When I attended public schools we learned foibles.
Of course that was ** + yrs ago.
Zina Lee, it is a pleasure to read your words.
Don't forget the nose. Then you get that silly yellow head;
; - )
Ah, you say that *now*, Tonya, but I consider Will to be a master of brevity compared to me, and I often send him articles to sub-edit for me before submitting them. *smirk*
The weird one for *me* is the apostrophe thing -- when I was in school lo these many years ago, they taught that you used the "apostrophe s" both for the contracted "it is" AND to show possessive. *sigh*
I try not to use the little yellow guys, they irritate the hell out of me. ;)
Zina, I may come across in the manner you describe but if so it is involuntary, i certainly dont intend to , unlike a number of people, here. I simply express my views, if those views are taken as insulting then that is a shame. My communication skills do, [though i like to feel effective] , i agree, lack subtlety. But i have always been one for plain speaking.
What is it you suggest i do? Ok yes i know, shut up, but apart from that. You have some suggestions for ways i could be more effective in communicating without upsetting people?
I have to say though that i still think its that my opinions them selves that are unpalatable, not my method of communication.
If someone asks a question and i answer with my considered opinion , why is that wrong?
Kennedy, i have taught on and off i dunno, since people asked me too, 10, 15 yrs?. But we all teach our selves. My confidence stems from being taught by some masters, i just do as i have learnt, and from teaching myself, as ultimately everything is self taught. The teacher just shows the way.
Im sorry i am simply not naming names. I gather this site has had an awfull reputation as a result of a few clowns, and i would never be forgiven!
I have taught a highly competent classical musician and kids and adults of all ages.
But my points in relation to ornaments come from my devoted study of ITM. Honestly, take them or leave them.
Im sorry if I maligned your teacher but to be honest I have seen the results of 'teachers' before. There is a saying , those who can, do, and those who cant teach.
I am not fore most a teacher. I am a student, as i will always remain, My suggestions are simply meant to help others on the path. If you or anyone choses to follow my recommendations, I am sure you won't regret it. Try it and in a few months or a year you can tell me how you feel. It is but a step on the path.
*sigh* Jig, dear, let me tell you straight out: you DO come across in the manner described. Is that really how you want to present yourself? Because it certainly means that people feel insulted by you, so they are certain to insult you in return (whether out in the open or behind your back), plus the knowledge you have is automatically discounted, a lot of time is wasted in arguing, etc.. I think that's a shame. Don't you?
Believe me, in the years thesesh has been in existence, there've been plenty of times we've all had to agree to disagree. I don't think it's your opinion that's the problem, it's the way the opinion is presented.
What can you do? Well, some editing before posting might be good, wherein you might consider how you might come across to someone reading who doesn't know and love you in meatspace.
For instance:
"Tat- well great, at last someone who knows a thing or two."
There's a great many people on this site who do know a thing or two, or three, or four, or five...most of them won't generally tell you how much they know, but believe me, I've met a pretty wide assortment of them. Implying that everyone else you've interacted with on the site *doesn't* know a thing or two is not going to win you any props, especially since some of them could probably play you under the table, no matter how could you consider yourself.
Two of your major tormentors, Dow and Michael, are extremely good, knowledgeable players. Both are perfectly able to agree to disagree, although Dow will wind you up about it, and Michael will insult you about it.
So answer with your considered opinion, but leave the insults out of them. If people react in a way that indicates they've been insulted, you might wish to consider that you've insulted them, whether you meant to or not.
Give it a try. I'm sure you won't regret it. Try it and in a few months, you'll know if it works. It's but a step on the path. :D
Well, not much to add to what Zina had to say...except that it's also good to acknowledge that perhaps a person who holds an opinion that is different from yours isn't necessarily wrong. Like ornaments---you say they're optional, others think they're not, and then there are arguments as to the degree to which they're important. Everyone's opinion is informed by their own personal experiences which of course are unique to everyone---so by respecting another's opinion, you're respecting their own experiences. Which is why I asked you if you had taught or not. Anyway. Cheers.
Oh, I think it's okay to think someone is dead wrong, Kennedy. The world goes around on it, as it were. Trying to figure out how to get along with people when you hold diametrically opposed opinions is something human beings have been trying to figure out (and failing, sometimes in some pretty major ways) for quite a long time. Hopefully we'll figure it out before we somehow blow up the planet.
Zina Lee don't give in to Mr.tat .
The face comes up with a simple : )
No hyphen needed.
All of these work just fine though.
:D :P :O) :/ ;)
Jig, I hope you appreciate all the good advice coming in.
Consider that as long as your opinion is "right" (to you & others ~ but not all) someone will be there to challenge that opinion.
lol - I take it out of his hide in a myriad of other ways, Tonya. Phone calls in the middle of the night, pleas for a tune title in the middle of his work day, blah blah blah...
Not to detract from your comments Jig & all, but I was just wondering if young Maya might be able to hear some fine examples of the tune in question? This is a discussion concerned with learning, I trust. So could a few willing participants please post what they consider the best example of a "Recording" of Maudabawn Chapel by Ed Reavey http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/302
No such thing as a "best", really. Eileen Ivers's version of Maudabawn Chapel is looked on very favorably by the Reavy family, for one. Jimmy Eagan's playing of Reavy tunes also is very good.
Speaking of which, John Carr (fine fiddler in Northern Colorado) informed me that Tony DiMarco told him that there are two different endings to both the A and B of Maudabawn Chapel. I later spoke to Brian Conway at the Return to Camden Town Festival, and he confirmed this. I really must go figure those two endings out, just so I know them...the vast majority of players I know play only one ending for both parts.
I too like Eileen Ivers' version of Maudabawn. It's on her Wild Blue album.
Kevin Burke's also sticks in my mind, but his recent "in person" playing of it is waaaay more interesting and inventive and playful than what he's recorded.
Zina, I play different endings for the A and B parts of Maudabawn. But then I also have different ways of beginning each part, varying how I start the A each time, and the B.
Jig, I'm sorry, but if you don't get how that old saying (and implying that I'm not familiar with it) is insulting, then perhaps it really is beyond your ken. That's too bad.
lol - yes, Michael, I know, and since I've met you in person and discovered that what Bridie found out about you from your mates was correct, I respect you anyway. :p
Yes, I heard Kevin Burke play it not so long ago and it did have some lovely new turns. It's the strength of a tune that it can take such stuff. Brilliant tune, it constantly inspires me.
We like to play it in a set with the hornpipe The Groves after it. We'll play it kind of slow, for a reel, but a fair bit quicker than the Wild Blue version, and into The Groves but played pretty straight, like Matt plays it. It's such a brilliant change from how the last part of Maudabawn Chapel resolves from the Em to the G and into The Groves with all its skipperty bits. Try it.
Sounds like a good recipe, Michael. I like it slow-ish, too (though not at the Wild Blue saunter). Lately, I've been pairing it with either Kerryman's Daughter after or Beare Island. Also goes well with Tuttles.
Talk about karma and chaos theory,the flap of a butterfly's wing that starts a cyclone...all this because a smiley 8th grade Maya asked what a tilde symbol means ! ..this is some crazy place to hang out,(as I think you americans say).Far out,man.
Maya, Here are some of the recordings of Maudabawn Chapel which have been recommended in this Discussion.
Maureen Fitzpatrick on The Music Of Ed Reavy ~ Various Artists
Track 12 http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1060
Just guessing Jim Eagan may have recorded this version on;
Augusta: 20 Years Of Irish Music
Track 19: Love At The Endings/Maudabawn Chapel/The Hunter's House http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2354
You mean they kinda go faster and faster,like a vortex,like a kinda auger,Danny,and screw themselves down into the centre of the planet never to be seen again? is that the one? or am I way off? ))
Exactly correct wolf. Occasionally they come out the other side and end up playing the tune in Japan, or Australia. That's why The Butterfly is such a popular tune in Oz.
Aha! I just KNEW there's was some explanation for all that Oz weirdness...but what happens when they they start doing it down there? Do they suddenly rise up out of the soil here? That could be kinda spooky...
Of course. Why the hell do you think there are so many Aussies in London? And while we're at it, where do you think Ayer's Rock came from? That was one that never made it all the way to Oz. A tragedy. The poor buggers got so close as well.
Yep they've reached London for sure. Many are in disguise as motor bike and cycle couriers. And guess what company they work for? Yep. You guessed - Cyclone.
Heck,Danny.It all fits together when you put it like that.Butterflies and cyclones and jiggy dancing and all that terrible stuff...I expect it'll be all over the papers tomorrow....Ayers Rock.sheeesh...makes ye think
Yep It all adds up doesn't it? Maybe we ought to keep it quiet, before the Daily Star gets a hold of the story.
Oh, and BTW, that should be: we *shall* never surrender.
And also if you were to transgenically insert buffoon genes into a baboon, I suppose you would get a bafoon. Terrifying thought. Imagine a cross between David Cameron and King Kong.
Yeah,Danny.Keep it under yer hat,as they say.A horse is as good as a wink.I'm going to light a candle and stumble up the stair and see if the bed is still there and dream about tildes.(Adjusts cap,thanks all for the enlightenment and departs stage left.)
He could have meant bodhran. That's an insult in michael's vocabulary.
Anyway, I'm not Irish. I was Russian around Hungary on Thursday, but I got some Turkey on a Pole, dipped it in Greece and Chile but I'm all Finnish now.
But maybe wolfbird is. An Irish Wolfbird.
"Does anyone know what those little dashes (the look like tildes in Spanish) are? What do they do to the way the note is played?
(example- measure 11 on line three of Maudabawn Chapel)
Maya : )"
Beg your pardon, but that is what the thread is about. I have no interest in stifling healthy debate but I think every thread should attempt to resolve back to where it began. Anything else is a new subject. Hopefully it is up there somewhere; all covered in mustard.
Oh, also, correction on the Paddy in the Smoke note---that's Martin Byrnes playing it, not Tony MacMahon. Very spooky & brilliant rendition it is, too!
Just a note before i go out; >> I also have to wonder what jig thinks about all the pros who teach workshops and give private lesson>>
Lads lets be clear, how many 10yr old beginers go to these work shops?
I will take an 8yr old within a few years they will be playing tunes .
When they can do this, and the ornaments that i teach . then they can at will put them in. However I personally feel that it is the tunes that matter, With spirit and technique.
With a whistle student they will get different ornaments than a fiddle student, different to a banjo student, different for a guitar student. etc There will be crossovers fair enough.
Were Tat to come to a banjo lesson of mine I might well ask him not to use ornaments. or i might not, it depends on each and every individual. I am first and foremost a Coach. I am there to help an individual to progress.
That is how i can teach musicians who are far better that me in ways, but complete novices in others. I teach ITM , and improvisation. I regularly see competent musicians who cant freely improvise and play in other styles. I can, and have been successful in passing this experience on.
Ornaments are where we , as traditional musicians improvise. If you are not ornamenting in this spirit and understanding then there is plenty more work to be done.
By learning the basic melody, as in all styles of music, you will be able to become adept at Improvising within the traditional frame work. Rote learning of ornaments is not the same at all by any stretch of the imagination.
Any how enough said, have a nice weekend.
I was just recently at the Return to Camden Town Festival. I don't know if they were 10 years old, but there were plenty of younger players in the workshops -- in fact, it was mainly younger players because the workshops with Brian Conway and Mick Mulvey were during the workday.
Miltown Malbay is full of kids in the workshops.
Actually, most of the larger, mainstream festivals have plenty of kids in the workshops...
To go to a workshop , presumably they can already play to a certain extent. A rank beginner is , i would have thought out of place in these places unless it were for rank beginners of course.
I personally would not even consider teaching tunes on the fiddle until the instruments itself can be played. I suggest that the tunes are learnt on the tin whistle, the first instrument taught around here. Were they to insist i would simply refer them to someone else.
As an aside in referance to the out rage at the saying referring to teachers id just like to quote Sir Yehudi Menuhin here, hope no one finds it TOO offensive
'' I would say that at least nine out of ten teachers, and probably 99 out of a hundred, teachers do harm;they are not aware, perhaps in their vanity and their blindness, of the damage they are doing.If a teacher can avoid this negative achievement , if he avoids doing any harm,even if he does not do any good, he is already a pretty good teacher.''
Jig, for what it's worth, my approach to teaching is a bit different. I do give people a tune on their first lesson. Here's how it works, and why I prefer this approach. I'll use fiddle as the example, although the basic method is the same for mandolin, banjo, guitar, etc.
With a new student who's never held an instrument before, I usually spend about 15 minutes going over basic stuff like how to hold the bow, how to move the bow arm, how to hold the fiddle, and--most importantly--how to stay relaxed.
Then we make lots of noise, just playing open strings. I want them to enjoy the sounds the fiddle can make. This also gives me a chance to offer guidance on how it feels to relax the hands, keep the bow perpendicular to the strings, and all the other nuances a beginner needs to be reminded of. I'll keep giving these pointers for many lessons to follow.
Next, I walk them through a D major scalde. And then I start teaching them a tune--usually something they already know the melody to. With little kids, I ask them about simple tunes they're likely to already be familiar with, like Frere Jacques, You Are My Sunshine, and so on. With adults, the tune choices sometimes cover a broader range--some grown ups have spent years listening to Irish trad, so we can start with a simple jig, polka, or reel.
When I find a tune that the student can lilt at least a bar or two of, then we starting sussing it out on the fiddle. I've never had anyone who couldn't do this at the first lesson, and the joy on their faces is priceless as they eke out a familiar melody on this unfamiliar instrument.
The reason I do this at the very first lesson is to tap directly into the core reason they're trying to learn an instrument--to learn how to play *music.* No one decides to take lessons so they can learn to play scales and do bowing drills. Most people don't even realize that they need to learn how to hold the instrument--that thought doesn't occur to them. No, a person comes to a music teacher because they want to make music. So I get them started on the very first day. This does wonders for their motivation.
Of course it usually takes constant diligence on my part to help them work on their form, intonation, tone, etc. But all of that can be taught through the tune. And the tune gives them a reason to want to learn all those things.
Kennedy, some schools of thought adhere to the notion that technique precedes music making. I had a piano teacher like that once, and it's probably why I never learned to make music on piano.
My question would be, "how?"
(Mind, I'm not pointing this a jig specifically. If anyone an answer this, I'm interested.)
How is it even possible to learn to play a musical instrument without learning tunes? Is it all just scales and exercises until some level of competency is reached? How long does that take? Who has the patience for such an approach (other than kids forced to take music lessons by their parents)?
When I run that idea through my head (only learning scales first), for myself, I know I never would have been able to learn that way. That's no fun! I would have sneaked in tunes at home (which I do anyway!)---which would have negated the method, I would think.
Jig, do you actually get students who have never played fiddle before who are willing to only play scales and exercises before they learn tunes?
[ everything here is my opinion]
Well to be honest will scales are a bit advanced for a beginner
I like to separate the left and right side completely at first. So would concentrate on a Good bowing technique to the exclusion of the left hand entirely. Using different techniques and parts of the bow. Holding the fiddle , posture , relaxation. etc.
I would be happy to teach a simple tune on the whistle from day 1 were they capable, however in practice i teach scales and arpeggi, patterns, first perhaps airs. I suggest traditional Irish airs as the first entry to jigs and reels. In orde; Airs, tunes they might know, then polkas, jigs, reels. .
I would, to be honest suggest to any beginner to start with the tin whistle. Sure if they are determined its the fiddle or nothing! then they can do the two in tandem.
So, fiddle; left hand scales using the fingers to sound the notes, progressing on to the bow when there is good bow control. This can take time. But the fiddle is not to be rushed. I found it immensely difficult and spent years attaining a smooth singing tone. we all arent as slow as me fortunately
Once a student has tunes on the whistle, quite possibly 10 or more and can use the bow without too many errors, they can play[1st position] scales WELL [as can be expected] and do the two together then they are free to 'join the dots' ie figure out the tunes on the fiddle.
So now they can play tunes on the fiddle, worked out with their own initiative. by ear. [with some help ok]
The reliance on notation is an error i feel in beginning Trad Fiddle. Now this method described distances the fiddle from notation because though its quite common here to use whistle tab in teaching kids the whistle this is because the lessons are en mass. Learning a tune bar by bar one at a time by ear is my preferred method, one on one.
Writing them down is 'ok' with reservations, if the student cant remember the tune. BUT I prefer one tune at a time. Learn one tune well. remember it , practice it and you will not need to write it down.
So that is a rough over view of the stages i would aim for . we are all individuals and each should be taught as an individual preferably.
However in the age of mass communication and consumption , and the present popularity and financial constraints it is sadly necessary to accept some compromise and teach groups of kids. This i leave to others.
I would be the first to admit my methods are not particularly fast, but i feel that with time , persistance and dedication . Good results are achieved.
I feel that intonation is the most important factor for the left hand. Bow control and rhythm for the right.
Tunes learnt on the whistle can then be played. And they sound nice.
The students ear is, for the fiddle, the most important factor bar none. we all need to listen to what we do. The ear should not be allowed to ignore bad , scratchy out of tune playing and I certainly wont!
Also, by learning the tunes on the whistle the student is given a voice which sounds clear, in tune and is not difficult. they then know how the tunes should sound. The mechanics of playing the fiddle are distanced from the making of' music'.
This has positive psychological effects in many ways.
OK i know what you are going to say; They came for fiddle lessons, not whistle!. Tough, take it or leave it
Will, i would not fault your methods. they work for you. We both have the same aim, music, just different approaches And we are in very different situations.I live in the west of Ireland, kids learn the whistle almost automatically here!
Actually i dont think our approaches are so different anyhow.
So much depends on age , aptitude and previous knowledge.
Yep, it sounds like our end goals are the same, and there's some overlap in our methods as well. I agree that learning this music by ear is best. I encourage my students to bring a recording device so they can listen to the tunes and lessons over and over. And yes, it's all about getting a strong, clear tone and steady, lively rhythm. I'm happy that the people I've taught get both of those fairly quickly.
Frankly, it's valuable to have different teachers with different methods available to folks who want to learn to play music. While teaching the same core ideas, skills, and principles, I tend to tailor my methods to each student's abilities, learning style, and personality. But there are bound to be people who would be more comfortable and do better with someone else teaching them. That's not in itself a bad thing.
Teaching is like being a doctor--the first rule is "do no harm." Beyond that, any method that produces happy, competent musicians who love to play is a good method.
Well, I guess the advantage of jig's method is that I would be able to play the whistle!
It doesn't sound like a bad method, jig, but honestly, I don't think I would have had the patience to stick with it. I wanted to play tunes, so much so that I did (and still do) anything it took to play them---they are a great motivating force for me. Months of nothing but scales and plucking and bowing would have done me in.
Of course, I'm not a kid. Don't you find that adults need different kind of instruction than kids do?
Of course , ive said that frequently. Everyone is an individual.
I would like to think that were you to come to me, You would come because you were recommended to go to me . But ultimately its your choice you are free to find another teacher. It all depends on you. What you can do, what you cant do. And on me, what i can do.
And make no mistake you will find teachers a lot cheaper to employ than me! I will be happy to recomend others. Mind you i also am happy to teach for free. If i have reason.
As far as the whistle goes i recomend it to everyone. its simple fun, cheap, you can play it in the rain[important here in Ireland]
It is in my opinion the pinnacle of Traditional instruments.
There is nothing better than a tin whistle played well. I know it doesn't have the Kudos that the pipes or fiddle have but at the price , who cares!
Cover your eyes oh ye of faint heart, The words of Joseph Szegeti;
''How often have we asked ourselves when a hopeless case in his or her late twenties was playing; how was it possible that none of the four or five teachers through whose hands they had passed in the course of 15 or 16 years of study had the honesty to tell them the truth and nothing but the truth? Can it be that the private teachers whose livelihood happens to depend on giving lessons cannot 'afford' in every sense of the word to tell the truth and lose a pupil? ''
zina, i was told i was being insulting. as you can see , the view i expressed was held by some of the greatest musicians . Why on earth would you suggest that this opinion might be inappropriate?
surely we are hear to learn.?
There seem to be two different methods of avoiding loss of face here allong with loosing an argument. Resort to personal insults, stop responding, and/or twisting words around, Sorry 3 main methods....... Well I certainly didnt expect the Spanish inquisition when i posted on this thread!
Im sorry zina, i am not used to being abused, i certainly would wonder what i were doing here were there not a great majority of interesting amusing and informative characters.
I have the strength of my convictions based upon nearly three and a half decades of daily and intensive study research and the playing of music. I am thankfull my mind is open to the wise words of others and i am more than ready to listen and learn. Of which i still have a lot to do.
respectfully .jig.
LOL -- good on you for that, Jig. But do keep in mind that the greatest musicians are human too, thereby being fallible, and often the goals of the greatest musicians might be a bit different from those of the musicians who make up the world of Irish trad music.
Sometimes music should be made because the people making it enjoy it, not because it should be to the highest standard. Sometimes it should be made to the highest standard. And the definition of "highest standard" is very malleable. There's room for it all.
I've told this story before, but...
I once sat in a studio every week, with one student. I did that for over a year, an hour every week. This lovely adult dancer couldn't seem to figure out how to dance sevens. She just couldn't get it. I tried every method I could think of, I wrote them down on paper, I had her sing the steps, I tried math, I tried art, but mainly I sat on my arse and had her practice sevens. Sometimes she'd get it, and then the next time she tried it, she didn't.
Our TCRG didn't give up on her, and I didn't either, and most importantly, she didn't give up on herself, even when both of us were literally crying with frustration. After a year or so, she finally got it. I was so pleased for her, and we were finally able to send her to the next level of classes.
Our school ended up splitting, and she decided to go with the other school. I was a bit hurt, but that's the way it goes. A year or so later, I was approached by her new TCRG, who told me that the dancer had placed first at a feis, and she had asked her TCRG to tell me that she knew that she owed that first to me and to her old TCRG.
I couldn't have been more pleased and happy and proud than if one of our 8 year olds had become a world champion.
If someone wants to make music, no matter how hopeless they are, if they won't give up, I'll try to not give up on them, if they're my student.
As an aside, if you are feeling abused, then do remember that others feel the exact same way. It won't actually help anything, but it does help promote empathy. ;)
Oh, now I'm remembering my first fiddle lesson, just under a year and a half ago. I'd never held a fiddle bow before, but I'd had a few years of recorder and piano - more than a decade earlier.
My first lesson - half an hour - went like this: "Here's your fiddle; here's how to hold it. Here's how to hold the bow. Here's more or less what you want to be doing with the bow; this will take some time before it feels natural, so don't worry. Here are your strings - G, D, A, and E. Here's where the fingers go. Got that? All right, we have fifteen minutes left, so here's your first tune."
My second lesson went like this: "So, how was your first week? Good? Great. Let's now play that tune we learned last lesson."
Incidentally, I spent some time - not much, a few minutes per day - playing scales during my first few weeks, just to get used to where my fingers were supposed to go. My teacher found it odd that I would do this of my own accord. A few months in, after I played a tune for him, my teacher gave me a pained look and said, "You're playing a bit sharp there. You know, I don't like scales, but maybe..."
None of this is to suggest that my teacher has fed me tune after tune with no attention to technique. Most lessons he gives me a new tune, and assigns me one or two aspects of technique to focus on - enough to keep me busy but not so much that I'll get overwhelmed. Often, he'll choose a tune for me based on which aspects of technique that tune lends itself to me practicing, and that's a lot more fun than scales (which do little for developing much besides intonation, as far as I can tell).
And I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but while I can see how intonation and tone can be taught and learned via technical exercises (scales and suchlike), I can't think of a better way to learn to play Irish rhythms than to play Irish tunes. What sort of non-reel sequence of notes captures the cadence of a reel, and even if such a sequence of notes exists, what advantage is there to playing that sequence of notes instead of just learning a simple reel? Seriously, we're talking all of 32 bars here, usually 16 repeated - I played (piano) etudes far longer than that. And in Irish music, intonation and tone certainly aren't inconsequential, but the rhythm is the thing.
Well scales are an immensely important part of music. They are the building blocks upon which our tunes are built. But beyond that they are the key to improvisation within modal music. I assure you with all my heart that tie spent in your scales will reward you in the coming years out of all proportion to the effort put in.
Yes i agree >>), I can't think of a better way to learn to play Irish rhythms than to play Irish tunes. <<
That is not in doubt, as i have said i recomend tunes learnt on the whistle. Of course with the whistle, the mechanics of playing a note wont take so long! place the plastic end in mouth, blow gently.
none the less you can easily isolate any aspect of trad to exercise on the fiddle and this comes highly recommended. bowing patterns, scratch triplets, slurs difficult bars, string crossing , etc. etc .
Practice individual phrases. There can be awfull lot happening in a simple reel.
When you can play a tune with no technical errors, at the correct pace then you are able to start really playing the music.
There is no substitute for perfect intonation. As playing trad is often a group activity it is possible to hide behind the general sound of the fretted instruments, whistle etc. This certainly takes the pressure of a fiddler, BUT still, at home practice your scales. In my opinion until you can stand , unsupported, upon you own two feet you are not yet a 'fiddler'.[in a musical sense if you get my meaning]
Look i dont know your teacher TDAM. but i will say one thing. A lot of my experience i put down to strudying with more teachers than i could mention. I would happily travel across the country or to a different country to study with a master. I really recomend this approach. Really there is no such thing as advanced tunes or techniques, just the basics played well. If your teacher wold be offended by you studying with another teacher then, if i were you i would reconsider studying with that instructor. A good teacher will always put his student first. If you can spare the time and effort entailed then find other teachers as well.
There may come a time when you have to choose your own path away from one of your instructors. having seen what different teachers have to offer you will be better able to judge.
Of course if possible one teacher with immaculate credentials would be preferable , as long, that is ,that you were still able to develop your own style.
But personal style is something that comes naturally after many many years , not something to be pulled out of a hat, not some trick, but genuine natural development.
I think that with the surfeit of commercial recordings a lot of people wish to achieve a high level without accomplishing the intermediate levels. There is no substitute for time spent.
Saying that of course i have met many incredibly gifted teenagers who have played 10 -12 years . But whether they have a personal style ...
Whether personal style is something to aim for is another debatable point, after all, the idea is to have fun , make beautiful music, so that others also enjoy our music.
Zina>>they won't give up, I'll try to not give up on them, if they're my student.<<
I am delighted to hear of you and your students success. it makes me feel good to hear people caring about each other.
Congratulations are in order i think.
Your attitude demonstrates that of a conscientious and caring, dedicated teacher.
Notations (?)
Notations (?)
Does anyone know what those little dashes (the look like tildes in Spanish) are? What do they do to the way the note is played?
(example- measure 11 on line three of Maudabawn Chapel)
Maya : )
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by fiddler94
Re: Notations (?)
It's an ornamentation symbol, in this case meaning a roll. I would tend to play a long roll in this particular case (g-f-g-A-g), but it's really open to interpretation.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Notations (?)
By the way, they are not ornaments in the standard sense of the definition. They are not decorative additions, they are part of the tune.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Notations (?)
In the example you gave, fiddler94, the roll would be played E F E D E, with the first E being held slightly longer than the rest and the second note being played either with the second finger (F) or the third finger (making it a G), and the second note is played shorter, as a grace note. Hope that makes sense.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by fiddleplayer01
Re: Notations (?)
The roll could be played several ways - I would probably play it differently for each repetition.
), which I would play with even note spacing. Starting the roll down instead of up matches the following sequence of notes better to my ear.
Note that the annotation doesn't necessarily indicate a particular note sequence,
I prefer the long roll starting down e-d-e-f#-e (note to self - read the sheet music, Eno
You could also roll the way FidDLe01 does - either giving it the uneven spacing or even spacing depending on which takes your fancy.
As a box player I might well cut it down from the f# (play a very short f# before the dotted crotchet e) which tends to emphasise the dotted note. I would only do this once in the set, though, since it's quite a powerful effect and gets too much with repetition.
Try all of these and see which one sounds best to you - it is a matter of taste after all. Try to avoid the trap of only learning one way of playing the tune as it becomes very restrictive in the long run and gets in the way when you start playing with others.
Eno
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Notations (?)
Fiddler94. There is very little chance you will be able to play a roll from a verbal description or the notation. A competent teacher of traditional music is your best bet. Failing this just listen, but it will take time.
My advice is not to worry about these ornaments for a few years, just get the tunes.
There are a wide range of possible ornaments you can use as an alternative to the note as written.
A top notch player like Tony MacMahon will ornament his tunes in 'unlikely' places, leaving notes commonly ornamented and straight while finding interesting and unusual places to express his individuality.
The other thing is that it is good practice to not repeat an ornament too much. Use variety to add dynamics.
Once again, Learn the basic melody first. The ornaments will come naturally in their own time. There must be some learner DVD's out there to help you learn by ear. Each phrase would be played slowly and carefully.
Welcome to the session and the wonderful world of Traditional Irish Music.
Enjoy.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
There are two schools of thought here. One is the advice to lay off rolls "for a few years". But they are not hard, just a simple flick of the fingers, once you get used to it. And by your interest in the first place, I think you should carry it through. They are part of the music, and if you want to play the music, then go ahead.
As far as aural sources for rolls go, you'd be hard pressed to find a decent recording of Maudabawn Chapel without them.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Notations (?)
Fair enough Llig i wouldnt argue with that. There are and were however plenty of great players who have never made a recording.
An aural tradition does'nt mean listening to CD's and learning from them! [ although i am not discounting this] It means sitting down with someone and learning a tune through human contact, and later sitting in a session and picking a tune up from enough exposure. Direct transmission.
All though its great to aspire to play like the greats we hear on tape, they are not the be all and end all of ITM.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
you know what, I just listened to Maureen Fitzpatrick playing Maudabawn Chapel (on The Music of Ed Reavy,
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1060
), which happens to be my favorite recording of this tune, and she only has three rolls in the whole thing. Sometimes she substitutes trebles, cuts, or just long notes in the same spots.
fiddler94, one thing to be careful of when you're learning a tune from sheet music is almost always, the notes and especially the ornamentation markers are just a *guide* for how you're supposed to play the tune. If you play a roll on measure 11 line three *every* time, the you won't be varying the tune every time through, and it will sound repetitive and probably a little boring. You want to make it interesting. The best way to get a feel for how to use written music is to have a trad teacher go through and show you how they approach it, but if you're doing it on your own, you'll learn a lot by just comparing the music with recorded versions (and for this tune, try to listen to the way it's played by Kevin Burke, Frankie Gavin, or Sean Ryan), and note the differences between what you hear and what you see. Most of the time when I find a written version of a tune, it's pretty different from the tune I know in my head, sometimes so much so that I have to re-transcribe it so that I have a written version that I can work with. Good luck, and come back here for suggestions if you have any trouble.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
"My advice is not to worry about these ornaments for a few years, just get the tunes"
I've been pondering this---jig, you can't be serious. Don't learn rolls *for a few years*?? You can't possibly have ever taught anyone how to play. I've only been playing a year and a half now, but if my teacher hadn't taught me any ornaments by now I would have definitely felt like I had the wrong teacher. He had me learning slurs in my second week! (all it is is bow distribution, which is as basic as it gets anyway). I've always had to at least *try* to put in ornaments. The only way you can play with them is by practicing them in. Sure, I practice without them to really focus on rhythm, but they have to go back in afterwards. Even one or two can have a nice effect on a tune---you don't have to play scads of them.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
How old are you Kennedy?
I didnt say dont learn how to do rolls ,I keep saying dont bother trying to put them into the tunes untill you can play the tune. Thats my advice and i stick to it.
For some one who has been playing for a year or so you seem very sure. You may well feel this;
>>if my teacher hadn't taught me any ornaments by now I would have definitely felt like I had the wrong teacher.<<
But with 18months experience what makes you think you even know what you need.?
There is often a big difference between what you think you need, and what you need.
I can asure you, as someone who has been playing trad for 25 years i do know what i am talking about.
The rolls as Llig says are simple things, in a way so are the tunes. I suggest people concentrate on the tunes because that is what matters. The rolls etc are the some of extra bits we use to add 'the personal touch'. They are not integral to the tune , but to the music of advanced players. Why try to be something you are not?
If you can play your tunes perfectly at the right pace with good spirit, and technique you dont need the extra bits anyhow!
Fair enough we all want to sound like our role models, there is nothing wrong with that but just a cursory look at you tube will show some of the horrendous attempts at playing ITM!
You want to sound like those?
No i dont think so. so learn your tunes, practice your scales. If you think you are ready after 2 weeks or 2 years Ok Go for it, its up to you. You can post it up on you tube and join the crowd.
But I suggest you concentrate on intonation and rhythm.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
Yeah, well, jig, my teacher has been playing for 25 years, so I think *he* knows what he’s doing, and he’s the one who makes me play my tunes with ornaments even when I’m not feeling so confident and would rather be lazy and not try them that way.
“I didnt say dont learn how to do rolls ,I keep saying dont bother trying to put them into the tunes untill you can play the tune”
So how are you supposed to learn how to play rolls if you don’t put them into the tunes? Just play them by themselves? That’s only learning them halfway. You need to put them in the tunes to get a feel for how they really need to be played, they need to be carried along with the rhythm and “rolled” just right so that they accentuate the flow of the tune.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
Erm, Jig, see this is what people keep getting on your case about:
"I can asure you, as someone who has been playing trad for 25 years i do know what i am talking about."
See, there are people here who've played this music just as long or longer, to the highest level, and their approach to the music differs from yours. Their opinions may also differ from yours.
What's odd to me--and it makes me question just how welcome you'd be in any decent session, too--is how you persist in coming across as so dogmatic and arrogant, in spite of how many times others here have called you on it. That's a bit like coming to the same session every week and commandeering the tunes even though, week after week, the people who started the session years before you ask you not to start all the sets, to let someone else jump in.
I'm sure someone with your esteemed years of experience would agree that tune hogs are no fun for the other sessioneers.
Well, the same sort of etiquette applies here.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
Kennedy (warning: jig-induced credential rattling follows), I've played Irish fiddle for nearly 30 years, and have been teaching it for longer than Jig has played fiddle. I've taught at music shops, as part of festivals, and at a college. In fact, I've been teaching music professionally since I was 15--that's coming up on 34 years now.
I've always introduced rolls and other articulations as soon as the student is ready for them. (Which is usually within a month or two of weekly lessons.)
I usually start with cuts because they're relatively easy to do and they are a basic building block for rolls. I encourage students to practice them separate from the tune, but I show them how to put a cut, roll, etc., into one easy phrase of a tune so they can also practice the roll in context, even if it's just playing one or two bars of music over and over. Of course, when they feel comfortable, they can plug the articulation into the tune.
Sure, sone people pick i t up quicker than others, but I've never had a student not be able to learn cuts and rolls within their first year of learning fiddle--and I'm talking all ages (from 6 to 60), and including people who've never held a fiddle before.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
Zina's absolutely right about 4/4 implying that the 1st beat of the 4 is the strongest, and the 3rd less so. Anyone who's been playing trad for any length of time will know that the accents may come on any of the 4 beats in trad, and it's up to the musician to be sensitive enough to the phrasing of the tune to know which one to emphasize.
The 4/4 metre also implies equally divided beats into 8 quavers like di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di. No swing. Listen to any classical music written in quavers like that and you'll not find any swing, unless it's transcribed dotted, and even then it's a very different kind of feel.
Jig hasn't taken into account that there is a way of transcribing a kind of swing in classical: the 12/8 metre, which (and this is important for the discussion) also has 4 beats to the bar. But 12/8 doesn't sound like a reel either, if you're thinking of yourself as "playing a 12/8 tune" as opposed to simply "playing a reel, how reels should be played".
Bottom line is, there might be a convention of sorts to write in common time 4/4, but that's not even consistent. There are some older publications with reels written in 2/4 (see Ryan/Cole's from the late 1800s or early 1900s for examples) and plenty sources with them written in 2/2.
It really is meaningless to talk about reels being in 4/4 to anyone - be they melody players or guitarists or bodhran players. Trad musicians should be "playing in a rhythm that's sensitive to what other musicians around them in the session are doing", not "playing in 4/4".
Sorry to encourage further discussion on the metre issue with this post, but I do worry that people reading through threads like this will take it as read that there's anything to be learnt from talking about trad in terms of 4/4 or whatever. There's simply nothing to be gained from it at all. It's gotta be said...
But what do I know, I live in Australia so apparently I shouldn't have an opinion on this music.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Notations (?)
Will, I figured as much (I’ve often suspected that you are, in fact, my teacher, and just pretending to be from Montana). That’s why all this stuff I’ve been reading from jig didn’t sound right---the idea that only advanced players should bother with ornaments---because I’m far from advanced and I can do a few of them already. Maybe not perfectly all the time, but sometimes they do come out right, at speed, which is very cool when it happens. And I know several other beginners who can do the same.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
Firstly kennedy, did he teach you rolls because>>if my teacher hadn't taught me any ornaments by now I would have definitely felt like I had the wrong teacher<>
Its a sad fact that people will compromise when it comes to earning a living. But none the less true.
Dow >>It really is meaningless to talk about reels being in 4/4 to anyone << That your opinion but its certainly not a fact.
Tat- well great, at last someone who knows a thing or two. I have but stated my position. if no one counters that with valid reasons then others are entitled to consider that opinion justified.
AS you have been doing exactly what i argue against then you will obviously feel that my view is unfounded, I accept that you have , presumably been successful in your methods. congratulations.
We have both been playing 30+ years, we have different approaches. If you feel your methods work then good for you. They run counter to everything i have learnt but so be it, work away. Im quite sure there are plenty other teachers who do the same.
Its not a question of whether some one can learn the mechanics of a cut or a roll, they are simple enough. but where and how do you use them?
To my mind its the tune that matters. Im sure your not going to tell me you can have your students playing tunes with spirit and technique in a year are you?
Exactly . the cuts and rolls can simply hinder the development of the tunes.
For the record i would not suggest a student learns tune untill they can make a nice sound and play their scales. If they want to play the tunes badly they will have to go to another teacher. i am not interested personally. I dont need to compromise my art for commercial success
Dow ->>I live in Australia so apparently I shouldn't have an opinion on this music.<<
It doesn't matter where you are from but your views on the bodhran certainly would make me doubt the validity of other things you say, However to answer this;
>>Jig hasn't taken into account that there is a way of transcribing a kind of swing in classical: the 12/8 metre, which (and this is important for the discussion) also has 4 beats to the bar. But 12/8 doesn't sound like a reel either, if you're thinking of yourself as "playing a 12/8 tune" as opposed to simply "playing a reel, how reels should be played".
What are you on about? Reels? 12/8? Have you actually got the faintest idea? You dont know me so actually you have no idea.Anyhow this is compound time, not 4/4 ? Im sorry you've lost me there. you want to explain what you mean?
All these comments about arrogance.... Really lads don't you know the difference between arrogance and confidence? Well there is a big difference i can assure you.
Whatever.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
>Does anyone know what those little dashes (the look like tildes in Spanish) are? What do they do to the way the note is played?
>(example- measure 11 on line three of Maudabawn Chapel)
>Maya : )
As everyone said, they represent a roll (and there are more than one kind). The hard thing is if you are used to sheet music but not Irish music, just having someone tell you they are rolls isn't much help. And what would you substitute instead of the roll if you didn't want to play one? You won't know unless you learn more about the music and how it's played and what it sounds like.
I found one thing helpful was to look up "fake book" on wikipedia. That puts the sheet music into proper perspective.
Then get a good book on Irish fiddle that has a CD and listen to the examples on the CD. You'll start to understand what rolls really are.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Notations (?)
“did he teach you rolls because>>if my teacher hadn't taught me any ornaments by now I would have definitely felt like I had the wrong teacher<>…its a sad fact that people will compromise when it comes to earning a living”
Jig that is so insulting---to imply that any teacher who teaches ornaments to a beginner is doing it *for the money*! He teaches them to me *because I need to know how to play them*. And I can play them! I can also do cuts and slides and even that slow hammer-on thingy lazyhound was talking about recently. And so can several other beginners I know! Why is this so incomprehensible to you???
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
Maya as you grow up & learn more about Irish traditional music could you please show respect to your fellow musicians?
Reconciliation is highly under-rated by the older generation.
Follow the advice of each of the fiddlers above. And then you decide what sounds best. Do what you are able now & just remember, if you are a good musician, you will continue to learn things the rest of your life.
Cheers!
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Notations (?)
The ridiculous thing is that how long someone has been playing isn't always an accurate barometer of their abilities and skills as a player, and probably says even less about their abilities as a teacher.
A good music teacher has to be able to analyze the elements that go into making good music, and then synthesize these back into a sensible progression for students. And you better be able to tailor that progression to suit different students and learning styles. And articulate and demonstrate the concepts and techniques in ways that are easy for the student to grasp and incorporate in their own playing.
All this takes a flair for logic, organization, analysis and synthesis, and creativity. Not to mention some talent as a musician.
Really good musicians are not uncommon. Really good teachers are rare. I've been lucky to learn from some great teachers.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Will Harmon
Teachers
Cheshire regardless of how 'much' you say you always have the ability hit the nail on the head squarely.
"Really good teachers are rare."
Sometimes you have to glean the best from the worst.
Sometimes you get very lucky.
Find the good stuff.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Notations (?)
Heh, Tonya, sometimes I type too much here in hopes of avoiding work....
Mea culpa.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
Cant keep away! oh well
43-9= 34 come on Mac that wasn't too hard
Tat I am really not interested in either arguing with you over this matter. If you can teach a beginner to play the fiddle with good spirit and technique in a year you really are a master instructor. I will try to suspend my incredulity .
Are you saying you are Kennedy's teacher then? As i was referring to him or her. There is no doubt that some teacher's do that, they give the student what the student wants whether that is the best thing for the student or not. Money talks. I am truly glad that you do not do this, another point in your favor.
In a year? Perhaps we have a different definition of drive and lift? Of course it all depends on how much they practice. but your telling me a year for a kid starting their first instrument, forgive me if i sound skeptical,.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
Jig, why don't you tell us about your teaching experience then, and how you came by all the sage knowledge that you have. How many years have you taught? How many students? What ages? Forgive me for my own skepticism, but you haven't exactly given us any examples that prove your points. YouTube clips don't count because you never know what kind of teacher the person had, or even if they're self taught.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
Hey I'm not arguing! I'm questioning your statement, thats alright isn't it? Asking for clarification... thats all.
Its no loss to me any how, I take pride in being realistic and questioning everything.
I think its the other way round actually It would be my loss if I did'nt.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
'Its no loss to me any how, I take pride in being realistic and questioning everything. I think its the other way round actually It would be my loss if I did'nt.'
I've read this five times and I still don't have a clue what it means. Still, that's Jig personified.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Notational fallibilities
Thanks MacCruiskeen for the new term ~ fallibilities.
When I attended public schools we learned foibles.
Of course that was ** + yrs ago.
Zina Lee, it is a pleasure to read your words.
Don't forget the nose. Then you get that silly yellow head;
; - )
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Notations (?)
Ah, you say that *now*, Tonya, but I consider Will to be a master of brevity compared to me, and I often send him articles to sub-edit for me before submitting them. *smirk*
The weird one for *me* is the apostrophe thing -- when I was in school lo these many years ago, they taught that you used the "apostrophe s" both for the contracted "it is" AND to show possessive. *sigh*
I try not to use the little yellow guys, they irritate the hell out of me. ;)
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
Ah, now we know her weakness...
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
Zina, I may come across in the manner you describe but if so it is involuntary, i certainly dont intend to , unlike a number of people, here. I simply express my views, if those views are taken as insulting then that is a shame. My communication skills do, [though i like to feel effective] , i agree, lack subtlety. But i have always been one for plain speaking.
What is it you suggest i do? Ok yes i know, shut up, but apart from that. You have some suggestions for ways i could be more effective in communicating without upsetting people?
I have to say though that i still think its that my opinions them selves that are unpalatable, not my method of communication.
If someone asks a question and i answer with my considered opinion , why is that wrong?
Kennedy, i have taught on and off i dunno, since people asked me too, 10, 15 yrs?. But we all teach our selves. My confidence stems from being taught by some masters, i just do as i have learnt, and from teaching myself, as ultimately everything is self taught. The teacher just shows the way.
Im sorry i am simply not naming names. I gather this site has had an awfull reputation as a result of a few clowns, and i would never be forgiven!
I have taught a highly competent classical musician and kids and adults of all ages.
But my points in relation to ornaments come from my devoted study of ITM. Honestly, take them or leave them.
Im sorry if I maligned your teacher but to be honest I have seen the results of 'teachers' before. There is a saying , those who can, do, and those who cant teach.
I am not fore most a teacher. I am a student, as i will always remain, My suggestions are simply meant to help others on the path. If you or anyone choses to follow my recommendations, I am sure you won't regret it. Try it and in a few months or a year you can tell me how you feel. It is but a step on the path.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
*sigh* Jig, dear, let me tell you straight out: you DO come across in the manner described. Is that really how you want to present yourself? Because it certainly means that people feel insulted by you, so they are certain to insult you in return (whether out in the open or behind your back), plus the knowledge you have is automatically discounted, a lot of time is wasted in arguing, etc.. I think that's a shame. Don't you?
Believe me, in the years thesesh has been in existence, there've been plenty of times we've all had to agree to disagree. I don't think it's your opinion that's the problem, it's the way the opinion is presented.
What can you do? Well, some editing before posting might be good, wherein you might consider how you might come across to someone reading who doesn't know and love you in meatspace.
For instance:
"Tat- well great, at last someone who knows a thing or two."
There's a great many people on this site who do know a thing or two, or three, or four, or five...most of them won't generally tell you how much they know, but believe me, I've met a pretty wide assortment of them. Implying that everyone else you've interacted with on the site *doesn't* know a thing or two is not going to win you any props, especially since some of them could probably play you under the table, no matter how could you consider yourself.
Two of your major tormentors, Dow and Michael, are extremely good, knowledgeable players. Both are perfectly able to agree to disagree, although Dow will wind you up about it, and Michael will insult you about it.
So answer with your considered opinion, but leave the insults out of them. If people react in a way that indicates they've been insulted, you might wish to consider that you've insulted them, whether you meant to or not.
Give it a try. I'm sure you won't regret it. Try it and in a few months, you'll know if it works. It's but a step on the path. :D
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
Sorry, typing faster than my fingers can keep up with: "no matter how GOOD you consider yourself".
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
P.S. Pbbbbhttthhhhht to you, Will. *smirk*
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
Well, not much to add to what Zina had to say...except that it's also good to acknowledge that perhaps a person who holds an opinion that is different from yours isn't necessarily wrong. Like ornaments---you say they're optional, others think they're not, and then there are arguments as to the degree to which they're important. Everyone's opinion is informed by their own personal experiences which of course are unique to everyone---so by respecting another's opinion, you're respecting their own experiences. Which is why I asked you if you had taught or not. Anyway. Cheers.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
Oh, I think it's okay to think someone is dead wrong, Kennedy.
The world goes around on it, as it were. Trying to figure out how to get along with people when you hold diametrically opposed opinions is something human beings have been trying to figure out (and failing, sometimes in some pretty major ways) for quite a long time. Hopefully we'll figure it out before we somehow blow up the planet.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
tee hee, or blow up the yellow board
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Notations (?)
Not like you haven't tried, Michael. :p
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Before you hit that "Post" button
Zina Lee don't give in to Mr.tat .
The face comes up with a simple : )
No hyphen needed.
All of these work just fine though.
:D :P :O) :/ ;)
Jig, I hope you appreciate all the good advice coming in.
Consider that as long as your opinion is "right" (to you & others ~ but not all) someone will be there to challenge that opinion.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Notations (?)
lol - I take it out of his hide in a myriad of other ways, Tonya. Phone calls in the middle of the night, pleas for a tune title in the middle of his work day, blah blah blah...
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
Um, yeah, Zeens gives as good as she takes, believe me. *smirk*
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
"Consider that as long as your opinion is "right" (to you & others ~ but not all) someone will be there to challenge that opinion."
Dialectic? Thesis plus antithesis produces synthesis,which becomes the new thesis,in an infinite spiral....the stairway to 'truth'...
or maybe not.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by wolfbird
Any examples for Maya
Not to detract from your comments Jig & all, but I was just wondering if young Maya might be able to hear some fine examples of the tune in question? This is a discussion concerned with learning, I trust. So could a few willing participants please post what they consider the best example of a "Recording" of Maudabawn Chapel by Ed Reavey
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/302
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Notations (?)
No such thing as a "best", really. Eileen Ivers's version of Maudabawn Chapel is looked on very favorably by the Reavy family, for one. Jimmy Eagan's playing of Reavy tunes also is very good.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
Yeah, I like Eileen Ivers's version of Maudabawn Chapel. Easy to learn from too, because of the pace.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Notations (?)
Speaking of which, John Carr (fine fiddler in Northern Colorado) informed me that Tony DiMarco told him that there are two different endings to both the A and B of Maudabawn Chapel. I later spoke to Brian Conway at the Return to Camden Town Festival, and he confirmed this. I really must go figure those two endings out, just so I know them...the vast majority of players I know play only one ending for both parts.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
I too like Eileen Ivers' version of Maudabawn. It's on her Wild Blue album.
Kevin Burke's also sticks in my mind, but his recent "in person" playing of it is waaaay more interesting and inventive and playful than what he's recorded.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
Zina, I play different endings for the A and B parts of Maudabawn. But then I also have different ways of beginning each part, varying how I start the A each time, and the B.
Jig, I'm sorry, but if you don't get how that old saying (and implying that I'm not familiar with it) is insulting, then perhaps it really is beyond your ken. That's too bad.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
lol - yes, Michael, I know, and since I've met you in person and discovered that what Bridie found out about you from your mates was correct, I respect you anyway. :p
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
I've got the transcription from Ed Reavy's playing of the tune, Will, I just haven't had time nor energy to sit down with it!
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
Yes, I heard Kevin Burke play it not so long ago and it did have some lovely new turns. It's the strength of a tune that it can take such stuff. Brilliant tune, it constantly inspires me.
We like to play it in a set with the hornpipe The Groves after it. We'll play it kind of slow, for a reel, but a fair bit quicker than the Wild Blue version, and into The Groves but played pretty straight, like Matt plays it. It's such a brilliant change from how the last part of Maudabawn Chapel resolves from the Em to the G and into The Groves with all its skipperty bits. Try it.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Notations (?)
Sounds like a good recipe, Michael. I like it slow-ish, too (though not at the Wild Blue saunter). Lately, I've been pairing it with either Kerryman's Daughter after or Beare Island. Also goes well with Tuttles.
I'll have to give Groves a go with it.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
Talk about karma and chaos theory,the flap of a butterfly's wing that starts a cyclone...all this because a smiley 8th grade Maya asked what a tilde symbol means ! ..this is some crazy place to hang out,(as I think you americans say).Far out,man.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by wolfbird
Recordings of Maudabawn Chapel
Maya, Here are some of the recordings of Maudabawn Chapel which have been recommended in this Discussion.
Maureen Fitzpatrick on The Music Of Ed Reavy ~ Various Artists
Track 12
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1060
Tony McMahon on Paddy In The Smoke ~ Various Artists
Track 1 : Maudabawn Chapel / Lafferty's
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/281
Eileen Ivers on Wild Blue
Track 3: Maudabawn Chapel
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/357
Just guessing Jim Eagan may have recorded this version on;
Augusta: 20 Years Of Irish Music
Track 19: Love At The Endings/Maudabawn Chapel/The Hunter's House
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2354
Kevin Burke In Good Company - The Very Best Of
Track 12: Maudabawn Chapel / The Wild Irishman/ The Mother
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/405
Kevin Burke In Concert
Track 4: The Cottage Groves / Maudabawn Chapel / The Beare Island
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/60
Kevin Burke And Mícheál O'Domhnaill
Track 1: Maudabawn Chapel / The Wild Irishman / The Moher
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/100
There is a link but I don't see it on; Second Story ~ Open House (?)
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1462
Thanks everybody!
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Notations (?)
Thanks Tonya, It really is a cracker of a tune
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by llig leahcim
Thanks Maya
Credit where credit is due
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Notations (?)
You mean they kinda go faster and faster,like a vortex,like a kinda auger,Danny,and screw themselves down into the centre of the planet never to be seen again? is that the one? or am I way off?
))
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Notations (?)
Exactly correct wolf. Occasionally they come out the other side and end up playing the tune in Japan, or Australia. That's why The Butterfly is such a popular tune in Oz.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Notations (?)
Aha! I just KNEW there's was some explanation for all that Oz weirdness...but what happens when they they start doing it down there? Do they suddenly rise up out of the soil here? That could be kinda spooky...
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Notations (?)
Of course. Why the hell do you think there are so many Aussies in London? And while we're at it, where do you think Ayer's Rock came from? That was one that never made it all the way to Oz. A tragedy. The poor buggers got so close as well.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Notations (?)
Well,damn.I never realized.The implications are just awful,Danny.Whatever's to be done? Are there Aussies in London already? I'm shocked.Phew!
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Notations (?)
No toil?
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Notations (?)
Yep they've reached London for sure. Many are in disguise as motor bike and cycle couriers. And guess what company they work for? Yep. You guessed - Cyclone.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Notations (?)
What about 'fight 'em on the beaches' and 'our finest hour' ?
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Notations (?)
We will NEVER surrender.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Notations (?)
Heck,Danny.It all fits together when you put it like that.Butterflies and cyclones and jiggy dancing and all that terrible stuff...I expect it'll be all over the papers tomorrow....Ayers Rock.sheeesh...makes ye think
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Notations (?)
Yep It all adds up doesn't it? Maybe we ought to keep it quiet, before the Daily Star gets a hold of the story.
Oh, and BTW, that should be: we *shall* never surrender.
And also if you were to transgenically insert buffoon genes into a baboon, I suppose you would get a bafoon. Terrifying thought. Imagine a cross between David Cameron and King Kong.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Notations (?)
Yeah,Danny.Keep it under yer hat,as they say.A horse is as good as a wink.I'm going to light a candle and stumble up the stair and see if the bed is still there and dream about tildes.(Adjusts cap,thanks all for the enlightenment and departs stage left.)
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Notations (?)
night night - tilde we meet again
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by BegF
Re: Notations (?)
Absolutely. You can Bring a Horse with a Heart Water from the Well, but a Bird in the Bush is worth two Butterflies.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Notations (?)
He could have meant bodhran. That's an insult in michael's vocabulary.
Anyway, I'm not Irish. I was Russian around Hungary on Thursday, but I got some Turkey on a Pole, dipped it in Greece and Chile but I'm all Finnish now.
But maybe wolfbird is. An Irish Wolfbird.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Notations (?)
"Does anyone know what those little dashes (the look like tildes in Spanish) are? What do they do to the way the note is played?
(example- measure 11 on line three of Maudabawn Chapel)
Maya : )"
Beg your pardon, but that is what the thread is about. I have no interest in stifling healthy debate but I think every thread should attempt to resolve back to where it began. Anything else is a new subject. Hopefully it is up there somewhere; all covered in mustard.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Notations (?)
Oh, also, correction on the Paddy in the Smoke note---that's Martin Byrnes playing it, not Tony MacMahon. Very spooky & brilliant rendition it is, too!
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
Just a note before i go out; >> I also have to wonder what jig thinks about all the pros who teach workshops and give private lesson>>
Lads lets be clear, how many 10yr old beginers go to these work shops?
I will take an 8yr old within a few years they will be playing tunes .
When they can do this, and the ornaments that i teach . then they can at will put them in. However I personally feel that it is the tunes that matter, With spirit and technique.
With a whistle student they will get different ornaments than a fiddle student, different to a banjo student, different for a guitar student. etc There will be crossovers fair enough.
Were Tat to come to a banjo lesson of mine I might well ask him not to use ornaments. or i might not, it depends on each and every individual. I am first and foremost a Coach. I am there to help an individual to progress.
That is how i can teach musicians who are far better that me in ways, but complete novices in others. I teach ITM , and improvisation. I regularly see competent musicians who cant freely improvise and play in other styles. I can, and have been successful in passing this experience on.
Ornaments are where we , as traditional musicians improvise. If you are not ornamenting in this spirit and understanding then there is plenty more work to be done.
By learning the basic melody, as in all styles of music, you will be able to become adept at Improvising within the traditional frame work. Rote learning of ornaments is not the same at all by any stretch of the imagination.
Any how enough said, have a nice weekend.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
I was just recently at the Return to Camden Town Festival. I don't know if they were 10 years old, but there were plenty of younger players in the workshops -- in fact, it was mainly younger players because the workshops with Brian Conway and Mick Mulvey were during the workday.
Miltown Malbay is full of kids in the workshops.
Actually, most of the larger, mainstream festivals have plenty of kids in the workshops...
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
I don't think anyone has suggested learning "rote ornamentation." Certainly not how I teach.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
To go to a workshop , presumably they can already play to a certain extent. A rank beginner is , i would have thought out of place in these places unless it were for rank beginners of course.
I personally would not even consider teaching tunes on the fiddle until the instruments itself can be played. I suggest that the tunes are learnt on the tin whistle, the first instrument taught around here. Were they to insist i would simply refer them to someone else.
As an aside in referance to the out rage at the saying referring to teachers id just like to quote Sir Yehudi Menuhin here, hope no one finds it TOO offensive
'' I would say that at least nine out of ten teachers, and probably 99 out of a hundred, teachers do harm;they are not aware, perhaps in their vanity and their blindness, of the damage they are doing.If a teacher can avoid this negative achievement , if he avoids doing any harm,even if he does not do any good, he is already a pretty good teacher.''
Shocking huh?
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
Jig, for what it's worth, my approach to teaching is a bit different. I do give people a tune on their first lesson. Here's how it works, and why I prefer this approach. I'll use fiddle as the example, although the basic method is the same for mandolin, banjo, guitar, etc.
With a new student who's never held an instrument before, I usually spend about 15 minutes going over basic stuff like how to hold the bow, how to move the bow arm, how to hold the fiddle, and--most importantly--how to stay relaxed.
Then we make lots of noise, just playing open strings. I want them to enjoy the sounds the fiddle can make. This also gives me a chance to offer guidance on how it feels to relax the hands, keep the bow perpendicular to the strings, and all the other nuances a beginner needs to be reminded of. I'll keep giving these pointers for many lessons to follow.
Next, I walk them through a D major scalde. And then I start teaching them a tune--usually something they already know the melody to. With little kids, I ask them about simple tunes they're likely to already be familiar with, like Frere Jacques, You Are My Sunshine, and so on. With adults, the tune choices sometimes cover a broader range--some grown ups have spent years listening to Irish trad, so we can start with a simple jig, polka, or reel.
When I find a tune that the student can lilt at least a bar or two of, then we starting sussing it out on the fiddle. I've never had anyone who couldn't do this at the first lesson, and the joy on their faces is priceless as they eke out a familiar melody on this unfamiliar instrument.
The reason I do this at the very first lesson is to tap directly into the core reason they're trying to learn an instrument--to learn how to play *music.* No one decides to take lessons so they can learn to play scales and do bowing drills. Most people don't even realize that they need to learn how to hold the instrument--that thought doesn't occur to them. No, a person comes to a music teacher because they want to make music. So I get them started on the very first day. This does wonders for their motivation.
Of course it usually takes constant diligence on my part to help them work on their form, intonation, tone, etc. But all of that can be taught through the tune. And the tune gives them a reason to want to learn all those things.
That's just my approach. Your mileage may vary.
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
"I personally would not even consider teaching tunes on the fiddle until the instruments itself can be played"
Why?
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
Kennedy, some schools of thought adhere to the notion that technique precedes music making. I had a piano teacher like that once, and it's probably why I never learned to make music on piano.
My question would be, "how?"
(Mind, I'm not pointing this a jig specifically. If anyone an answer this, I'm interested.)
How is it even possible to learn to play a musical instrument without learning tunes? Is it all just scales and exercises until some level of competency is reached? How long does that take? Who has the patience for such an approach (other than kids forced to take music lessons by their parents)?
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
When I run that idea through my head (only learning scales first), for myself, I know I never would have been able to learn that way. That's no fun! I would have sneaked in tunes at home (which I do anyway!)---which would have negated the method, I would think.
Jig, do you actually get students who have never played fiddle before who are willing to only play scales and exercises before they learn tunes?
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
[ everything here is my opinion]
Well to be honest will scales are a bit advanced for a beginner
I like to separate the left and right side completely at first. So would concentrate on a Good bowing technique to the exclusion of the left hand entirely. Using different techniques and parts of the bow. Holding the fiddle , posture , relaxation. etc.
I would be happy to teach a simple tune on the whistle from day 1 were they capable, however in practice i teach scales and arpeggi, patterns, first perhaps airs. I suggest traditional Irish airs as the first entry to jigs and reels. In orde; Airs, tunes they might know, then polkas, jigs, reels. .
I would, to be honest suggest to any beginner to start with the tin whistle. Sure if they are determined its the fiddle or nothing! then they can do the two in tandem.
So, fiddle; left hand scales using the fingers to sound the notes, progressing on to the bow when there is good bow control. This can take time. But the fiddle is not to be rushed. I found it immensely difficult and spent years attaining a smooth singing tone. we all arent as slow as me fortunately
Once a student has tunes on the whistle, quite possibly 10 or more and can use the bow without too many errors, they can play[1st position] scales WELL [as can be expected] and do the two together then they are free to 'join the dots' ie figure out the tunes on the fiddle.
So now they can play tunes on the fiddle, worked out with their own initiative. by ear. [with some help ok]
The reliance on notation is an error i feel in beginning Trad Fiddle. Now this method described distances the fiddle from notation because though its quite common here to use whistle tab in teaching kids the whistle this is because the lessons are en mass. Learning a tune bar by bar one at a time by ear is my preferred method, one on one.
Writing them down is 'ok' with reservations, if the student cant remember the tune. BUT I prefer one tune at a time. Learn one tune well. remember it , practice it and you will not need to write it down.
So that is a rough over view of the stages i would aim for . we are all individuals and each should be taught as an individual preferably.
However in the age of mass communication and consumption , and the present popularity and financial constraints it is sadly necessary to accept some compromise and teach groups of kids. This i leave to others.
I would be the first to admit my methods are not particularly fast, but i feel that with time , persistance and dedication . Good results are achieved.
I feel that intonation is the most important factor for the left hand. Bow control and rhythm for the right.
Tunes learnt on the whistle can then be played. And they sound nice.
The students ear is, for the fiddle, the most important factor bar none. we all need to listen to what we do. The ear should not be allowed to ignore bad , scratchy out of tune playing and I certainly wont!
Also, by learning the tunes on the whistle the student is given a voice which sounds clear, in tune and is not difficult. they then know how the tunes should sound. The mechanics of playing the fiddle are distanced from the making of' music'.
This has positive psychological effects in many ways.
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
OK i know what you are going to say; They came for fiddle lessons, not whistle!. Tough, take it or leave it
Will, i would not fault your methods. they work for you. We both have the same aim, music, just different approaches And we are in very different situations.I live in the west of Ireland, kids learn the whistle almost automatically here!
Actually i dont think our approaches are so different anyhow.
So much depends on age , aptitude and previous knowledge.
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
Yep, it sounds like our end goals are the same, and there's some overlap in our methods as well. I agree that learning this music by ear is best. I encourage my students to bring a recording device so they can listen to the tunes and lessons over and over. And yes, it's all about getting a strong, clear tone and steady, lively rhythm. I'm happy that the people I've taught get both of those fairly quickly.
Frankly, it's valuable to have different teachers with different methods available to folks who want to learn to play music. While teaching the same core ideas, skills, and principles, I tend to tailor my methods to each student's abilities, learning style, and personality. But there are bound to be people who would be more comfortable and do better with someone else teaching them. That's not in itself a bad thing.
Teaching is like being a doctor--the first rule is "do no harm." Beyond that, any method that produces happy, competent musicians who love to play is a good method.
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Notations (?)
Well, I guess the advantage of jig's method is that I would be able to play the whistle!
It doesn't sound like a bad method, jig, but honestly, I don't think I would have had the patience to stick with it. I wanted to play tunes, so much so that I did (and still do) anything it took to play them---they are a great motivating force for me. Months of nothing but scales and plucking and bowing would have done me in.
Of course, I'm not a kid. Don't you find that adults need different kind of instruction than kids do?
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Notations (?)
Of course , ive said that frequently. Everyone is an individual.
I would like to think that were you to come to me, You would come because you were recommended to go to me . But ultimately its your choice you are free to find another teacher. It all depends on you. What you can do, what you cant do. And on me, what i can do.
And make no mistake you will find teachers a lot cheaper to employ than me! I will be happy to recomend others. Mind you i also am happy to teach for free. If i have reason.
As far as the whistle goes i recomend it to everyone. its simple fun, cheap, you can play it in the rain[important here in Ireland]
It is in my opinion the pinnacle of Traditional instruments.
There is nothing better than a tin whistle played well. I know it doesn't have the Kudos that the pipes or fiddle have but at the price , who cares!
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
Cover your eyes oh ye of faint heart, The words of Joseph Szegeti;
''How often have we asked ourselves when a hopeless case in his or her late twenties was playing; how was it possible that none of the four or five teachers through whose hands they had passed in the course of 15 or 16 years of study had the honesty to tell them the truth and nothing but the truth? Can it be that the private teachers whose livelihood happens to depend on giving lessons cannot 'afford' in every sense of the word to tell the truth and lose a pupil? ''
yes truly shocking huh.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
*sigh* Jig, have you ever just let something go?
Because this might be a good time.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
zina, i was told i was being insulting. as you can see , the view i expressed was held by some of the greatest musicians . Why on earth would you suggest that this opinion might be inappropriate?
surely we are hear to learn.?
There seem to be two different methods of avoiding loss of face here allong with loosing an argument. Resort to personal insults, stop responding, and/or twisting words around, Sorry 3 main methods....... Well I certainly didnt expect the Spanish inquisition when i posted on this thread!
Im sorry zina, i am not used to being abused, i certainly would wonder what i were doing here were there not a great majority of interesting amusing and informative characters.
I have the strength of my convictions based upon nearly three and a half decades of daily and intensive study research and the playing of music. I am thankfull my mind is open to the wise words of others and i am more than ready to listen and learn. Of which i still have a lot to do.
respectfully .jig.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
blah blah blah, sanctimonious self righteous fool perhaps but at least i try.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
LOL -- good on you for that, Jig. But do keep in mind that the greatest musicians are human too, thereby being fallible, and often the goals of the greatest musicians might be a bit different from those of the musicians who make up the world of Irish trad music.
Sometimes music should be made because the people making it enjoy it, not because it should be to the highest standard. Sometimes it should be made to the highest standard. And the definition of "highest standard" is very malleable. There's room for it all.
I've told this story before, but...
I once sat in a studio every week, with one student. I did that for over a year, an hour every week. This lovely adult dancer couldn't seem to figure out how to dance sevens. She just couldn't get it. I tried every method I could think of, I wrote them down on paper, I had her sing the steps, I tried math, I tried art, but mainly I sat on my arse and had her practice sevens. Sometimes she'd get it, and then the next time she tried it, she didn't.
Our TCRG didn't give up on her, and I didn't either, and most importantly, she didn't give up on herself, even when both of us were literally crying with frustration. After a year or so, she finally got it. I was so pleased for her, and we were finally able to send her to the next level of classes.
Our school ended up splitting, and she decided to go with the other school. I was a bit hurt, but that's the way it goes. A year or so later, I was approached by her new TCRG, who told me that the dancer had placed first at a feis, and she had asked her TCRG to tell me that she knew that she owed that first to me and to her old TCRG.
I couldn't have been more pleased and happy and proud than if one of our 8 year olds had become a world champion.
If someone wants to make music, no matter how hopeless they are, if they won't give up, I'll try to not give up on them, if they're my student.
As an aside, if you are feeling abused, then do remember that others feel the exact same way. It won't actually help anything, but it does help promote empathy. ;)
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Zina Lee
Re: Notations (?)
Oh, now I'm remembering my first fiddle lesson, just under a year and a half ago. I'd never held a fiddle bow before, but I'd had a few years of recorder and piano - more than a decade earlier.
My first lesson - half an hour - went like this: "Here's your fiddle; here's how to hold it. Here's how to hold the bow. Here's more or less what you want to be doing with the bow; this will take some time before it feels natural, so don't worry. Here are your strings - G, D, A, and E. Here's where the fingers go. Got that? All right, we have fifteen minutes left, so here's your first tune."
My second lesson went like this: "So, how was your first week? Good? Great. Let's now play that tune we learned last lesson."
Incidentally, I spent some time - not much, a few minutes per day - playing scales during my first few weeks, just to get used to where my fingers were supposed to go. My teacher found it odd that I would do this of my own accord. A few months in, after I played a tune for him, my teacher gave me a pained look and said, "You're playing a bit sharp there. You know, I don't like scales, but maybe..."
None of this is to suggest that my teacher has fed me tune after tune with no attention to technique. Most lessons he gives me a new tune, and assigns me one or two aspects of technique to focus on - enough to keep me busy but not so much that I'll get overwhelmed. Often, he'll choose a tune for me based on which aspects of technique that tune lends itself to me practicing, and that's a lot more fun than scales (which do little for developing much besides intonation, as far as I can tell).
And I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but while I can see how intonation and tone can be taught and learned via technical exercises (scales and suchlike), I can't think of a better way to learn to play Irish rhythms than to play Irish tunes. What sort of non-reel sequence of notes captures the cadence of a reel, and even if such a sequence of notes exists, what advantage is there to playing that sequence of notes instead of just learning a simple reel? Seriously, we're talking all of 32 bars here, usually 16 repeated - I played (piano) etudes far longer than that. And in Irish music, intonation and tone certainly aren't inconsequential, but the rhythm is the thing.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Notations (?)
Well scales are an immensely important part of music. They are the building blocks upon which our tunes are built. But beyond that they are the key to improvisation within modal music. I assure you with all my heart that tie spent in your scales will reward you in the coming years out of all proportion to the effort put in.
Yes i agree >>), I can't think of a better way to learn to play Irish rhythms than to play Irish tunes. <<
That is not in doubt, as i have said i recomend tunes learnt on the whistle. Of course with the whistle, the mechanics of playing a note wont take so long! place the plastic end in mouth, blow gently.
none the less you can easily isolate any aspect of trad to exercise on the fiddle and this comes highly recommended. bowing patterns, scratch triplets, slurs difficult bars, string crossing , etc. etc .
Practice individual phrases. There can be awfull lot happening in a simple reel.
When you can play a tune with no technical errors, at the correct pace then you are able to start really playing the music.
There is no substitute for perfect intonation. As playing trad is often a group activity it is possible to hide behind the general sound of the fretted instruments, whistle etc. This certainly takes the pressure of a fiddler, BUT still, at home practice your scales. In my opinion until you can stand , unsupported, upon you own two feet you are not yet a 'fiddler'.[in a musical sense if you get my meaning]
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Notations (?)
Look i dont know your teacher TDAM. but i will say one thing. A lot of my experience i put down to strudying with more teachers than i could mention. I would happily travel across the country or to a different country to study with a master. I really recomend this approach. Really there is no such thing as advanced tunes or techniques, just the basics played well. If your teacher wold be offended by you studying with another teacher then, if i were you i would reconsider studying with that instructor. A good teacher will always put his student first. If you can spare the time and effort entailed then find other teachers as well.
There may come a time when you have to choose your own path away from one of your instructors. having seen what different teachers have to offer you will be better able to judge.
Of course if possible one teacher with immaculate credentials would be preferable , as long, that is ,that you were still able to develop your own style.
But personal style is something that comes naturally after many many years , not something to be pulled out of a hat, not some trick, but genuine natural development.
I think that with the surfeit of commercial recordings a lot of people wish to achieve a high level without accomplishing the intermediate levels. There is no substitute for time spent.
Saying that of course i have met many incredibly gifted teenagers who have played 10 -12 years . But whether they have a personal style ...
Whether personal style is something to aim for is another debatable point, after all, the idea is to have fun , make beautiful music, so that others also enjoy our music.
Zina>>they won't give up, I'll try to not give up on them, if they're my student.<<
I am delighted to hear of you and your students success. it makes me feel good to hear people caring about each other.
Congratulations are in order i think.
Your attitude demonstrates that of a conscientious and caring, dedicated teacher.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil