How do you tell someone that their timing is terrible? The primary fiddle player at the session I've been attending for over a year now is really a race-hound, and not consistently so...his tunes can end up nearly twice as fast as they start. I've held my breath and clung on for dear life without pointing this out, meanwhile practicing diligently with my metronome. But last night, he criticized me for speeding up a tune. Maybe I did, I'm certainly not perfect either, so I apologized. But I'm thinking, next time he takes the ball and runs, I should politely point this out to him, so maybe he can work on it and improve, just as I try to. Any thoughts/experiences/suggestions? Thanks!
Karen
Karen - Is this the only session around? If you have an option, let your feet do the talking...haul ass, baby.
If not, stand your ground, with a smile. Sarcasm is a much used, but still highly effective weapon.
But first of all, if this self-appointed demi-god can be reached through the medium of just pure honest niceness and conversation, exhaust that avenue before you raise the stakes.
Sadly, my observations have shewn conclusively that SessionEgoMania is incurable, but, unlike any other diagnosible afflictions, it appears to subside when the sufferer is in the presence of a more acute OR chronic sufferer.
In other words, how does this person behave around a well known local BIG player, or even a visiting The Music CELEB?
I thought a session leader's position (whether Taken or Given) was to be slightly but benignly above the petty chatterings of the concerns of (so-called) mere mortals, and faultlessly produce a steady stream of standard tunes. To be involved with STUFF, like playing too fast, or slow, means he's not doing his job, and doesn't deserve the wages.
My instinct is to not criticize him... just as he oughtn't to be criticizing you. It's this simple right: none of us is perfect, therefore none of us is in a position to criticize anyone else. Especially at a session. A session is not a masterclass or a talent contest, where the person playing is there expecting to be criticized. A session is where a bunch of mates get together to chat and play some tunes and to have fun, not criticize each other. That's why I agree with Danny. Don't waste your time descending to their level. Haul ass.
isnīt humour the right strategy? but it is difficult to find the thin line between humour and sarcasm "hey, you have a date tonight?" or "did your wife/husband call you on the mobile to come home soon?" is the question me and my session mates understand right: someone speeded up and left the good pace we all started at ("oops was it me? then sorry folks, I try to stay steady the next tunes") .
the atmosphere of a session should allow you to talk frankly about these things .... politeness to me is not grinning and choking on anger, but dress possible anger in a costume of humour and take it all in all not too serious. but that needs a friendly full-duplex-communication (what is not always easy) - if this is absolute impossible (because of arrogance, demi-god-behavior or whatsoever) the correct advice was given by Danny ;o)
Only slightly serious ... but, then again, not overly flippant either!
Maybe make up a compilation of players who manage to play tunes at a nice steady lick, with grace and charm and who don't resort to "boy-racer" tactics ...
Include, say, a few tracks by Brian Rooney, Paddy Canny, Mary MacNamara, Oisin MacDiarmada, Martin Hayes, Joe Derrane ... maybe when he listens he'll find out that taking it a bit easy on the tempo allows the tune to breathe and gives the player room to ornament and experiment.
A high-octane set of reels can be an exhilarating listen; but there's a lot to be said at the same time for dropping down a gear! (Mind you that's spoken by a player who finds it difficult to get out of third gear most of the time.)
A final thing to remember ... and other sessioneers may wish to take issue or not ... is that if a player kicks off a set, then other players should play at the tempo he or she sets. If they find it difficult - either because the tempo is too fast or too slow - then they shouldn't attempt to subvert the original player's intention. I'm fortunate in that I normally play with musicians who understand this premise and don't mind occasionally getting a prod along from a colleague. But there's nothing in life more frustrating than, just when you've established a nice steady pulse for someone to attempt to put a fire under your arse. It can absolutely throw me and I find that even a tune that I've played for years and which comes as easily to me as breathing falls away from me if the tempo's too high!
One tactic I use that never fails is - encourage the others not to join in with the speed merchant.
Other options include
1) Bring a metronome along.
2) Encourage everyone else in the room to bang their feet in time to the original speed so that everyone else can stick together.
3) Enlist a big bass drum from the local brass band or Orange Lodge.
4) Resort to a conductor.
5) Make police car noises and when he stops, give him a speeding ticket.
A friend of mine turned to me after a set of tunes and just said, "Switch to Sanka." Do you guys get that in other parts of the world or just the States?
I have a theory...(here we go)...I noticed that you're from Maryland. Well, I don't know if this is an American thing (I am American) but at most of the sessions I've been to across the States I've noticed that many Americans, including myself at times, consistently have a hard time with timing. I know it's a generalization, but hear me out...
Most of us weren't suckled with tunes from our mother's breast, so maybe we don't start off with that inate "feel" for the music. That's another generalization and a different topic. But I do feel like we come into the music so hopelessly inadequate number-of-tune-wise that we focus on the notes, getting the tunes and the bowing or blowing or whatever, that we neglect having a good steady drive. And in my opinion that's the most critical thing to have if you're a musician who plays what's mostly dance music.
In a session environment most of the fancy little licks that you've worked so hard on get drowned out anyway. The best sessions are the ones where everyone's moving together.
I know there was a long time when my timing was silly and it took my friend saying, "Switch to Sanka," to make me aware of it. From there on it's like a whole new world of music opened up to me and I've enjoyed playing so much more. And other people have enjoyed playing with me more.
I think that the most egomaniacal people are often the most insecure people. So, maybe the Speed Racer is aware that something big is missing from his music but he's not sure what. He just may not be aware of his timing problem because we all focus so much on learning tunes,tunes,tunes and bowing,bowing,bowing that we forget how to 1234,1234. Or never learn it. He may not even know what it feels like to have that good steady pulse, even at a slower speed, especially at a slower speed.
So, I think you should find a way to gracefully tell him that he has a problem. He may get mad, but you may be doing him a big favor. I would suggest not doing it during the session, though. Maybe buy him a drink afterwards and talk to him or *God forbid* suggest playing some tunes outside of the session and address it then. (Why do we all think of sessions as the only time we can get together and play? That's another topic, though...) He'll be flattered that you want to play outside the session and he'll know that you take his music seriously. That might give you some more leeway to talk to him.
I recall singing in a church choir with other children years ago in which, after doing a song acapella, the conductor (my dad, actually) would hit the starting chord on the piano and discover that we either climbed or dropped during the course of the song. If we were unusually exuberant, we'd tend to finish higher than where we'd started, or, more commonly, we'd drop, sometimes by as much as a third.
I think the same thing happens with tempo. You can get sort of an adrenlin rush, so you find yourself just flying along. I think it's remarkable that you folks can attribute the tendency to a particular person in your session, because it seems to me that it spreads like a virus.
In any case, perhaps the "polite" thing is to blame the group's overall energy, as in, "Wow, did that one get away on us -- I sure couldn't keep up!"
In almost any ensemble of players it is quite common to find that the tempo increases when the music gets louder, and tends to slow when the music gets quieter. Perhaps it's not so much evident in sessions where there's a fairly level dynamic (i.e. loud!), but an increase in the energy or intensity of the music will surely cause a corresponding increase in speed. It's something you've got to be aware of if you're playing for dancers (set or solo), and even more so if you're cutting a cd.
For some reason, I'm reminded of a joke that was floating around these parts a while back:
The queen and President Bush met in England for some affair of state and were traveling ceremoniously by horse-drawn carriage when one of the horses let loose with an enormous fart. Both passengers diplomatically pretended not to have noticed. But a ghastly smell began to waft back toward the carriage, and the queen felt she had to break her silence: “I am so sorry, Mr. President, but there are some acts of nature which even heads of state are powerless to control.”
Bush nodded sympathetically and said, “Say no more, your majesty. In fact, if you hadn't said anything, I was ready to assume it was the horse.”
A propos of nothing in particular, the Latin word for "bush" is "frutex", which was also used in Latin comedy 2000 years ago to mean "blockhead". I'm not sure what the connection is with ITM, but perhaps some of the wind instruments have bushings in their construction.
Apart from speeding up during a tune, there is also the problem of the player who, when (s)he comes to an easy run of notes on their instrument, plays them faster than they should be played and ends up ahead of everybody else. If the player is musically sensitive enough to listen to the other players, (s)he can soon be back on track, but thatīs often not the case and the rest of the tune/set just becomes a mess - particularly if the instrument is a loud one.
It can never be emphasised too strongly to those new to sessions: Always listen with one ear to your own playing, and with the other ear to what the rest of the session - or at least the musicians near to you - are playing.
I've noticed people will speed through a hard part as well, I guess it comes from apprehension of pulling it off. Either way - the rhythm should remain steady. I liked what Aidan said about tempos - don't hijack someone else's tempo. Nothing let's the air out of my tires worse than having something sped up or slowed down.
Hi Karen, yours is only partly a musical problem. It's nice of you to worry about how to get on with this speeding fiddler when in fact he (and in most cases it's a he and not a she) should be worrying about it. No, don't keep quiet. You might think that people won't like you any more if you criticise them. But I found that an open word is usually accepted when it's honest and not insulting. Perhaps say that it gives you and the others a lot of trouble to keep up with his erratic timing and would he kindly avoid causing you humble fellow-musicians such problems. I myself would probably not manage to be humorous and to stay cool.If you do lose your temper and have good reason for it, it might get you closer to a solution than keeping quiet and getting stomach ulcers.
Invite the Fiddler to join this site. I've been cured of racing thanks to a lot of input from folk here. I think Brad was the first to point out the errors in my ways. Although I took it as a snub, I began to see the truth in it over a while.
In a somewhat similar vein are those players who play at a steady tempo but omit whole sections of tunes - half a bar or a bar, say - or even add in superfluous notes, so a reel ends up having 31 or 33 bars instead of 32. I recall visiting a session in a certain town in the South of England a couple of years ago, with an Irish box player in his 50s. Although in all other respects a good player, he was afflicted with this peculiar bar-dropping syndrome. The first time I heard it happen, I thought I was hearing a particularly unusual tune - something like a set dance - and commented on it to another muscian, whose response was a wordless gesture implying something like, " Yes, we know - we don't mention it."
Whether he was 'suckled with tunes from his mother's breast', I don't know, but I would say that he had at least grown up with some awareness of traditional music and had probably played for some 30 years or more. In light of this, you might say, "He ought to know better." But the fact is, he didn't (and probably still doesn't) and as somebody who has been playing this music for less than a decade, and whose first tunes came from recordings of commercial bands and from dots on paper, it is not my place to tell him. The banjo player with whom he regularly plays, an Englishman and relative latecomer to Irish music, has learnt his indiosyncracies (or, at least, learnt to anticipate them, as I doubt he ever plays a tune the same twice), and can play along to him quite happily.
Admittedly, this is not quite the same as trying to keep up (or down) with somebody who cannot keep a steady pace, but I think it is necessary to be aware that some people play the way they do, just because they do. No matter what anyone says, I believe there is a kind of unwritten, unspoken hierarchy in ITM, which is based on much more than just technical ability or size of repertoire.
A rather aggressive and blustery friend of mine owned recently that he had discovered that people will tend to do things for you if you ask them nicely. My subconscious response was, "brilliant deduction, there, Holmes," but it does work.
If you want to be proactive, ask to play the tune slowly. Show humility--not being servile, just humble. It costs you nothing and won't give you an electric shock. If properly phrased it's a compliment to the other player. "I'd love to master this piece, but I'm not up to your level (or speed, or quality of playing) yet. Could we try it a little more slowly than usual this time until I've got it?"
If it's after the fact, instead of telling somebody that you thought it sped up, or that you thought it was too fast, ask. Don't tell, ASK. Ask dispassionately, "Was that faster at the end than it was when we started?" You could be wrong, and you could be right. If your impression was right, they might notice it and do something about it next time. If your impression was wrong, they can always say, "Nope."
If feel strongly that your impression was right and they're not willing to cop to it or be nice to you, THEN you can haul ass.
Playing in time is one of the two most difficult things a musician has to master (intonation is the other, if appropriate to the instrument). The basic problem is that a person's mental perception of time doesn't equate to the actuality until they've learnt (whether formally or not) to really listen to their playing, and that is the most difficult thing for any aspiring musician to master. When the player discovers the knack of listening to him/herself objectively as if another person is playing then progress can be meteoric.
The business of playing in time isn't something that comes naturally to most people; they have to be taught it and eventually discipline themselves to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if many mature players (not necessarily mature in years) have a good sense of time because it was instilled into them in their formative years by a good teacher.
I know for a fact that I never start off slowly , then start to speed up towardsthendofatune.
Nor do I evr drp any nots.
In other words, I reckon we are all guilty of some foible when leading a set, especially when the spotlight is on you, but some people are worse than others. Karen's problem was that yer man does the speeding up, then accuses her of it. Maybe he only puts his foot down on the gas when you're around, and he was miffed that you could keep up with him, hence he started giving out to you.
Playing some tunes at a clippy pace can be fun, IF there's concensus for it, as can doing so slowly, savouring each note, so to speak. Flute players tend to play faster than some other instrument players. I know for a fact that I physically cannot play D/G box at even half the velocity of playing the flute. I know someone who accuses me of playing the flute too fast, but when I pick up the box they set off at lightning pace - to teach me a lesson, I suppose. How grown up is that?
2 other little things spring to mind here.
#1. I've been in sessions which have been painfully slow - and I mean literally painfully, for a flute player. Lips turning blue through hypoxia, jaw, diaphragm and intercostal muscles going ischaemic, waiting for a phrase to end. Also it's bliddy boring, not only to play, but to listen to. In my book that's worse than too fast.
#2. I was, a while ago, accused, by someone I'd been regularly playing with for a couple of years, that I would start a tune, then half way through, jack on it, ie ditch it, when no-one joined in (cos they didn't have it). That one stung - we all occasionally do it, and I've heard even very good players do that. You just seem to drive off without having consulted your mental road map first. So I got careful, to start only what I meant to finish, AND also to let this person lead a tune (s)he'd started, at least once all the way through, before joining in. Lo and behold, yer one was doing on a REGULAR basis what they'd accused me of! Other than that I actually quite like the person, hence I've tried to conceal their identity, not that they hit this website.
So I sympathise with Karen through experience (of a slightly different nature but in essence similar - ie being accused by the guilty.) Anyway, enough of the bitching from me, I'm well over that lot of stuff.
Wow, this community rocks. (or ITMs?) I am truly impressed with both the number and quality of responses to my query...many many thanks to all of you for your input and support!
Karen
Most of the time these days I,m more direct and just say it if somebodys speeding up.If they are not sitting next to me I will more likely say something like "we are speeding up".So far I haven,t be hit! The problem is that a lot of people interpret "criticism" as being critical and it carrys with it a negative conatation.The temption then is to say nothing (but then moun to other people).After all it only a speeding tune - not a car,no-ones life is in danger.Keep a look out for the my next posting "session rage" if this new spirit of bravado backfires.
Chris, if you're going to do a posting on "session rage" then you'll obviously need some practical experience. I think something suitable could be arranged When's our next session - Monday isn't it?
Was with Ged Foley telling the wannabees to not play. He would just stop in the middle of a tune if someone was playing cluelessly.
Years later I saw another variant which was much kinder. After a few weeks of putting up with a bit of noise, one of the session leaders brought in a photocopied document on session ettiquite and gave it to the would-be blunderer, with a smile.
A while back at a very full session, we were all happily going along on a set of tunes, when on the last one I noticed something or someone sounded very wrong. I don't think I have been playing long enough to criticize others, but it sounded so off and I was being a little hot-headed and blurted out to the session leader, "Was somebody playing in the wrong key?' He (kind soul that he was (is)) smiled and said, "Umm, interesting chords." That instanty diffused what could have been an ugly situation.
I later asked my teacher's husband if he would have said anything in that situation, and he answered me indirectly, "One doesn't make any friends by pointing out what others are doing wrong." It certainly humbled me and gave me a different perspective on session playing. Of course, the offending musician was not *constantly* playing in the wrong key, and since I don't go to the session regularly, I didn't have to put up with it if it had been the case (I don't think it was, though).
Try starting off a set about as fast as the guy has finnished his set. Then stop a couple of bars in, applologise to every one, then stast again at a decent speed. A few of those and he''l get the message
Two wildlife film makers in the serengeti shooting a pride of lions with a long lense.
The camera man looks down and sees the sound man gingerley taking off his hiking boots and lacing up his nike trainers.
"Don't be crazy man," says he, "shoes won't make a difference, you'll never out run a lion."
"Hey," comes the reply, "as long as I can out run you."
I had to tell a bodrahn banger to stop last night. I felt terrible doing it but at least I got the backing of the rest of us. It's a daft thing to feel bad though, when it's the offender who should be the one feeling bad. Infact this whole discussion is back to front. Are we really discussing the etiquette of dealing with people who have no etiquette?
Said drum banger came up to me after and asked me why I asked him to stop. I told him the truth, that he was not playing in time and that he was too loud. "What do you mean I wasn't playing in time?" he asked. I just lost it after that.
Go on Michael. Tell us more.
You just lost it? You mean a sort of red mist descended before your eyes and when you came round there were bits of goatskin hanging from the light fittings and the bodhran player was being stretchered off laying on his front`because of where the broken bits of frame had been shoved?
Or was it less dramatic?
The red mist did indeed come down. Or was it the black mist with the creamy white head? Anyway, said drum offender was saved by a combination of my mates holding me back and my mates giving said offender more of what he deserved.
He kept saying, "but I was playing in time"
and we kept saying, "try using your ears"
and he'd say, "I do listen"
and round and round it went.
Some one told me you can buy a bodrhan in Ireland that comes with a little booklet entitled "learn to play in an hour". I really want to know who wrote that book. can any one out there give me details?
Michael, Ask your bodhran-bashing buddy- he probably wrote it...
Surreptitiously kicking a bad bodhran player in the shins under cover of the table when you want them to stop playing out of time/too loudly has worked for me in the past - just don't own up to it!
I hope you're joking 'cos that's asking for trouble. I would never advise the use of violence in a session in any circumstances. And it's cowardly not to own up.
One time I was playing with a very good fiddler & a new musician came to the session. The leader of the session welcomed him & offered him a seat. We went into some tunes & this guy just started wiggling his fingers & playing a good impression of a dial-up modem. The leader of the session leaned over & said, "Sorry, that's just not working" in a friendly way.
I guess the moral of the story is that humorous stabs & passive agressive behaviour just makes for bad karma down the road. A kind & sensible approach will probably fix the problem quicker. It can be uncomfortable or painless it's all a matter of wording/body language etc..
the etiquette of criticism
the etiquette of criticism
How do you tell someone that their timing is terrible? The primary fiddle player at the session I've been attending for over a year now is really a race-hound, and not consistently so...his tunes can end up nearly twice as fast as they start. I've held my breath and clung on for dear life without pointing this out, meanwhile practicing diligently with my metronome. But last night, he criticized me for speeding up a tune. Maybe I did, I'm certainly not perfect either, so I apologized. But I'm thinking, next time he takes the ball and runs, I should politely point this out to him, so maybe he can work on it and improve, just as I try to. Any thoughts/experiences/suggestions? Thanks!
Karen
# Posted on April 10th 2003 by ketida
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Karen - Is this the only session around? If you have an option, let your feet do the talking...haul ass, baby.
If not, stand your ground, with a smile. Sarcasm is a much used, but still highly effective weapon.
But first of all, if this self-appointed demi-god can be reached through the medium of just pure honest niceness and conversation, exhaust that avenue before you raise the stakes.
Sadly, my observations have shewn conclusively that SessionEgoMania is incurable, but, unlike any other diagnosible afflictions, it appears to subside when the sufferer is in the presence of a more acute OR chronic sufferer.
In other words, how does this person behave around a well known local BIG player, or even a visiting The Music CELEB?
I thought a session leader's position (whether Taken or Given) was to be slightly but benignly above the petty chatterings of the concerns of (so-called) mere mortals, and faultlessly produce a steady stream of standard tunes. To be involved with STUFF, like playing too fast, or slow, means he's not doing his job, and doesn't deserve the wages.
Danny.
# Posted on April 10th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: the etiquette of criticism
My instinct is to not criticize him... just as he oughtn't to be criticizing you. It's this simple right: none of us is perfect, therefore none of us is in a position to criticize anyone else. Especially at a session. A session is not a masterclass or a talent contest, where the person playing is there expecting to be criticized. A session is where a bunch of mates get together to chat and play some tunes and to have fun, not criticize each other. That's why I agree with Danny. Don't waste your time descending to their level. Haul ass.
# Posted on April 10th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: the etiquette of criticism
[several hours later] I've been chuckling at that expression all day - I should use it more - thanks Danny!
# Posted on April 10th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: the etiquette of criticism
isnīt humour the right strategy? but it is difficult to find the thin line between humour and sarcasm "hey, you have a date tonight?" or "did your wife/husband call you on the mobile to come home soon?" is the question me and my session mates understand right: someone speeded up and left the good pace we all started at ("oops was it me? then sorry folks, I try to stay steady the next tunes") .
the atmosphere of a session should allow you to talk frankly about these things .... politeness to me is not grinning and choking on anger, but dress possible anger in a costume of humour and take it all in all not too serious. but that needs a friendly full-duplex-communication (what is not always easy) - if this is absolute impossible (because of arrogance, demi-god-behavior or whatsoever) the correct advice was given by Danny ;o)
# Posted on April 10th 2003 by crannog
Re: the etiquette of criticism
One I got sledged with - after playing "The Cup of Tea" I was asked "You sure it's not called the Cup of Coffee? Espresso?"
Danny
# Posted on April 10th 2003 by Rudall the time
Only slightly serious ... but, then again, not overly flippant either!
Maybe make up a compilation of players who manage to play tunes at a nice steady lick, with grace and charm and who don't resort to "boy-racer" tactics ...
Include, say, a few tracks by Brian Rooney, Paddy Canny, Mary MacNamara, Oisin MacDiarmada, Martin Hayes, Joe Derrane ... maybe when he listens he'll find out that taking it a bit easy on the tempo allows the tune to breathe and gives the player room to ornament and experiment.
A high-octane set of reels can be an exhilarating listen; but there's a lot to be said at the same time for dropping down a gear! (Mind you that's spoken by a player who finds it difficult to get out of third gear most of the time.)
A final thing to remember ... and other sessioneers may wish to take issue or not ... is that if a player kicks off a set, then other players should play at the tempo he or she sets. If they find it difficult - either because the tempo is too fast or too slow - then they shouldn't attempt to subvert the original player's intention. I'm fortunate in that I normally play with musicians who understand this premise and don't mind occasionally getting a prod along from a colleague. But there's nothing in life more frustrating than, just when you've established a nice steady pulse for someone to attempt to put a fire under your arse. It can absolutely throw me and I find that even a tune that I've played for years and which comes as easily to me as breathing falls away from me if the tempo's too high!
# Posted on April 10th 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: the etiquette of criticism
One tactic I use that never fails is - encourage the others not to join in with the speed merchant.
Other options include
1) Bring a metronome along.
2) Encourage everyone else in the room to bang their feet in time to the original speed so that everyone else can stick together.
3) Enlist a big bass drum from the local brass band or Orange Lodge.
4) Resort to a conductor.
5) Make police car noises and when he stops, give him a speeding ticket.
# Posted on April 10th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: the etiquette of criticism
A friend of mine turned to me after a set of tunes and just said, "Switch to Sanka." Do you guys get that in other parts of the world or just the States?
I have a theory...(here we go)...I noticed that you're from Maryland. Well, I don't know if this is an American thing (I am American) but at most of the sessions I've been to across the States I've noticed that many Americans, including myself at times, consistently have a hard time with timing. I know it's a generalization, but hear me out...
Most of us weren't suckled with tunes from our mother's breast, so maybe we don't start off with that inate "feel" for the music. That's another generalization and a different topic. But I do feel like we come into the music so hopelessly inadequate number-of-tune-wise that we focus on the notes, getting the tunes and the bowing or blowing or whatever, that we neglect having a good steady drive. And in my opinion that's the most critical thing to have if you're a musician who plays what's mostly dance music.
In a session environment most of the fancy little licks that you've worked so hard on get drowned out anyway. The best sessions are the ones where everyone's moving together.
I know there was a long time when my timing was silly and it took my friend saying, "Switch to Sanka," to make me aware of it. From there on it's like a whole new world of music opened up to me and I've enjoyed playing so much more. And other people have enjoyed playing with me more.
I think that the most egomaniacal people are often the most insecure people. So, maybe the Speed Racer is aware that something big is missing from his music but he's not sure what. He just may not be aware of his timing problem because we all focus so much on learning tunes,tunes,tunes and bowing,bowing,bowing that we forget how to 1234,1234. Or never learn it. He may not even know what it feels like to have that good steady pulse, even at a slower speed, especially at a slower speed.
So, I think you should find a way to gracefully tell him that he has a problem. He may get mad, but you may be doing him a big favor. I would suggest not doing it during the session, though. Maybe buy him a drink afterwards and talk to him or *God forbid* suggest playing some tunes outside of the session and address it then. (Why do we all think of sessions as the only time we can get together and play? That's another topic, though...) He'll be flattered that you want to play outside the session and he'll know that you take his music seriously. That might give you some more leeway to talk to him.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by jerball
Re: the etiquette of criticism
I recall singing in a church choir with other children years ago in which, after doing a song acapella, the conductor (my dad, actually) would hit the starting chord on the piano and discover that we either climbed or dropped during the course of the song. If we were unusually exuberant, we'd tend to finish higher than where we'd started, or, more commonly, we'd drop, sometimes by as much as a third.
I think the same thing happens with tempo. You can get sort of an adrenlin rush, so you find yourself just flying along. I think it's remarkable that you folks can attribute the tendency to a particular person in your session, because it seems to me that it spreads like a virus.
In any case, perhaps the "polite" thing is to blame the group's overall energy, as in, "Wow, did that one get away on us -- I sure couldn't keep up!"
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: the etiquette of criticism
In almost any ensemble of players it is quite common to find that the tempo increases when the music gets louder, and tends to slow when the music gets quieter. Perhaps it's not so much evident in sessions where there's a fairly level dynamic (i.e. loud!), but an increase in the energy or intensity of the music will surely cause a corresponding increase in speed. It's something you've got to be aware of if you're playing for dancers (set or solo), and even more so if you're cutting a cd.
Trevor
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: the etiquette of criticism
For some reason, I'm reminded of a joke that was floating around these parts a while back:
The queen and President Bush met in England for some affair of state and were traveling ceremoniously by horse-drawn carriage when one of the horses let loose with an enormous fart. Both passengers diplomatically pretended not to have noticed. But a ghastly smell began to waft back toward the carriage, and the queen felt she had to break her silence: “I am so sorry, Mr. President, but there are some acts of nature which even heads of state are powerless to control.”
Bush nodded sympathetically and said, “Say no more, your majesty. In fact, if you hadn't said anything, I was ready to assume it was the horse.”
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: the etiquette of criticism
The dreaded ” surfaces again! I guess it represents quotation marks. Sorry!
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by cuchulain54
”
We spell check because we care
G5
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by Gra5ity
Re: the etiquette of criticism
A propos of nothing in particular, the Latin word for "bush" is "frutex", which was also used in Latin comedy 2000 years ago to mean "blockhead". I'm not sure what the connection is with ITM, but perhaps some of the wind instruments have bushings in their construction.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Apart from speeding up during a tune, there is also the problem of the player who, when (s)he comes to an easy run of notes on their instrument, plays them faster than they should be played and ends up ahead of everybody else. If the player is musically sensitive enough to listen to the other players, (s)he can soon be back on track, but thatīs often not the case and the rest of the tune/set just becomes a mess - particularly if the instrument is a loud one.
It can never be emphasised too strongly to those new to sessions: Always listen with one ear to your own playing, and with the other ear to what the rest of the session - or at least the musicians near to you - are playing.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by murfbox
Re: the etiquette of criticism
I've noticed people will speed through a hard part as well, I guess it comes from apprehension of pulling it off. Either way - the rhythm should remain steady. I liked what Aidan said about tempos - don't hijack someone else's tempo. Nothing let's the air out of my tires worse than having something sped up or slowed down.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by Mad Baloney
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Hi Karen, yours is only partly a musical problem. It's nice of you to worry about how to get on with this speeding fiddler when in fact he (and in most cases it's a he and not a she) should be worrying about it. No, don't keep quiet. You might think that people won't like you any more if you criticise them. But I found that an open word is usually accepted when it's honest and not insulting. Perhaps say that it gives you and the others a lot of trouble to keep up with his erratic timing and would he kindly avoid causing you humble fellow-musicians such problems. I myself would probably not manage to be humorous and to stay cool.If you do lose your temper and have good reason for it, it might get you closer to a solution than keeping quiet and getting stomach ulcers.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by kuec
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Invite the Fiddler to join this site. I've been cured of racing thanks to a lot of input from folk here. I think Brad was the first to point out the errors in my ways. Although I took it as a snub, I began to see the truth in it over a while.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by Mark Cordova
Re: the etiquette of criticism
In a somewhat similar vein are those players who play at a steady tempo but omit whole sections of tunes - half a bar or a bar, say - or even add in superfluous notes, so a reel ends up having 31 or 33 bars instead of 32. I recall visiting a session in a certain town in the South of England a couple of years ago, with an Irish box player in his 50s. Although in all other respects a good player, he was afflicted with this peculiar bar-dropping syndrome. The first time I heard it happen, I thought I was hearing a particularly unusual tune - something like a set dance - and commented on it to another muscian, whose response was a wordless gesture implying something like, " Yes, we know - we don't mention it."
Whether he was 'suckled with tunes from his mother's breast', I don't know, but I would say that he had at least grown up with some awareness of traditional music and had probably played for some 30 years or more. In light of this, you might say, "He ought to know better." But the fact is, he didn't (and probably still doesn't) and as somebody who has been playing this music for less than a decade, and whose first tunes came from recordings of commercial bands and from dots on paper, it is not my place to tell him. The banjo player with whom he regularly plays, an Englishman and relative latecomer to Irish music, has learnt his indiosyncracies (or, at least, learnt to anticipate them, as I doubt he ever plays a tune the same twice), and can play along to him quite happily.
Admittedly, this is not quite the same as trying to keep up (or down) with somebody who cannot keep a steady pace, but I think it is necessary to be aware that some people play the way they do, just because they do. No matter what anyone says, I believe there is a kind of unwritten, unspoken hierarchy in ITM, which is based on much more than just technical ability or size of repertoire.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: the etiquette of criticism
A rather aggressive and blustery friend of mine owned recently that he had discovered that people will tend to do things for you if you ask them nicely. My subconscious response was, "brilliant deduction, there, Holmes," but it does work.
If you want to be proactive, ask to play the tune slowly. Show humility--not being servile, just humble. It costs you nothing and won't give you an electric shock. If properly phrased it's a compliment to the other player. "I'd love to master this piece, but I'm not up to your level (or speed, or quality of playing) yet. Could we try it a little more slowly than usual this time until I've got it?"
If it's after the fact, instead of telling somebody that you thought it sped up, or that you thought it was too fast, ask. Don't tell, ASK. Ask dispassionately, "Was that faster at the end than it was when we started?" You could be wrong, and you could be right. If your impression was right, they might notice it and do something about it next time. If your impression was wrong, they can always say, "Nope."
If feel strongly that your impression was right and they're not willing to cop to it or be nice to you, THEN you can haul ass.
---Michael B.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Playing in time is one of the two most difficult things a musician has to master (intonation is the other, if appropriate to the instrument). The basic problem is that a person's mental perception of time doesn't equate to the actuality until they've learnt (whether formally or not) to really listen to their playing, and that is the most difficult thing for any aspiring musician to master. When the player discovers the knack of listening to him/herself objectively as if another person is playing then progress can be meteoric.
The business of playing in time isn't something that comes naturally to most people; they have to be taught it and eventually discipline themselves to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if many mature players (not necessarily mature in years) have a good sense of time because it was instilled into them in their formative years by a good teacher.
Trevor
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: the etiquette of criticism
I know for a fact that I never start off slowly , then start to speed up towardsthendofatune.
Nor do I evr drp any nots.
In other words, I reckon we are all guilty of some foible when leading a set, especially when the spotlight is on you, but some people are worse than others. Karen's problem was that yer man does the speeding up, then accuses her of it. Maybe he only puts his foot down on the gas when you're around, and he was miffed that you could keep up with him, hence he started giving out to you.
Playing some tunes at a clippy pace can be fun, IF there's concensus for it, as can doing so slowly, savouring each note, so to speak. Flute players tend to play faster than some other instrument players. I know for a fact that I physically cannot play D/G box at even half the velocity of playing the flute. I know someone who accuses me of playing the flute too fast, but when I pick up the box they set off at lightning pace - to teach me a lesson, I suppose. How grown up is that?
2 other little things spring to mind here.
#1. I've been in sessions which have been painfully slow - and I mean literally painfully, for a flute player. Lips turning blue through hypoxia, jaw, diaphragm and intercostal muscles going ischaemic, waiting for a phrase to end. Also it's bliddy boring, not only to play, but to listen to. In my book that's worse than too fast.
#2. I was, a while ago, accused, by someone I'd been regularly playing with for a couple of years, that I would start a tune, then half way through, jack on it, ie ditch it, when no-one joined in (cos they didn't have it). That one stung - we all occasionally do it, and I've heard even very good players do that. You just seem to drive off without having consulted your mental road map first. So I got careful, to start only what I meant to finish, AND also to let this person lead a tune (s)he'd started, at least once all the way through, before joining in. Lo and behold, yer one was doing on a REGULAR basis what they'd accused me of! Other than that I actually quite like the person, hence I've tried to conceal their identity, not that they hit this website.
So I sympathise with Karen through experience (of a slightly different nature but in essence similar - ie being accused by the guilty.) Anyway, enough of the bitching from me, I'm well over that lot of stuff.
Danny
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Just do what an old friend of mine used to do -- shout loudly "QUICK, AFTER HIM/HER!!" and he/ she generally gets the idea.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by LongNote
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Wow, this community rocks. (or ITMs?) I am truly impressed with both the number and quality of responses to my query...many many thanks to all of you for your input and support!
Karen
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by ketida
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Most of the time these days I,m more direct and just say it if somebodys speeding up.If they are not sitting next to me I will more likely say something like "we are speeding up".So far I haven,t be hit! The problem is that a lot of people interpret "criticism" as being critical and it carrys with it a negative conatation.The temption then is to say nothing (but then moun to other people).After all it only a speeding tune - not a car,no-ones life is in danger.Keep a look out for the my next posting "session rage" if this new spirit of bravado backfires.
# Posted on April 12th 2003 by Christopher Reynolds
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Ask if his name is Arkle [or some other well know horse].
Racing commentaries usually do the trick here!
# Posted on April 12th 2003 by breandan
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Chris, if you're going to do a posting on "session rage" then you'll obviously need some practical experience. I think something suitable could be arranged
When's our next session - Monday isn't it?
Trevor
# Posted on April 12th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Two experiences
Was with Ged Foley telling the wannabees to not play. He would just stop in the middle of a tune if someone was playing cluelessly.
Years later I saw another variant which was much kinder. After a few weeks of putting up with a bit of noise, one of the session leaders brought in a photocopied document on session ettiquite and gave it to the would-be blunderer, with a smile.
--Eliot
# Posted on April 14th 2003 by Eliot
Re: the etiquette of criticism
A while back at a very full session, we were all happily going along on a set of tunes, when on the last one I noticed something or someone sounded very wrong. I don't think I have been playing long enough to criticize others, but it sounded so off and I was being a little hot-headed and blurted out to the session leader, "Was somebody playing in the wrong key?' He (kind soul that he was (is)) smiled and said, "Umm, interesting chords." That instanty diffused what could have been an ugly situation.
I later asked my teacher's husband if he would have said anything in that situation, and he answered me indirectly, "One doesn't make any friends by pointing out what others are doing wrong." It certainly humbled me and gave me a different perspective on session playing. Of course, the offending musician was not *constantly* playing in the wrong key, and since I don't go to the session regularly, I didn't have to put up with it if it had been the case (I don't think it was, though).
# Posted on April 14th 2003 by Andee
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Try starting off a set about as fast as the guy has finnished his set. Then stop a couple of bars in, applologise to every one, then stast again at a decent speed. A few of those and he''l get the message
# Posted on April 14th 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Hey Michael, we hadn't heard from you in a long while...
# Posted on April 14th 2003 by Andee
Re: the etiquette of criticism
This often happens when I'm playing with a friend of mine, ( a mandola player) :
He says: You are running too fast!
I replay: I'm running after you!!
# Posted on April 14th 2003 by gian marco
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Two wildlife film makers in the serengeti shooting a pride of lions with a long lense.
The camera man looks down and sees the sound man gingerley taking off his hiking boots and lacing up his nike trainers.
"Don't be crazy man," says he, "shoes won't make a difference, you'll never out run a lion."
"Hey," comes the reply, "as long as I can out run you."
# Posted on April 15th 2003 by llig leahcim
I had to tell a bodrahn banger to stop last night. I felt terrible doing it but at least I got the backing of the rest of us. It's a daft thing to feel bad though, when it's the offender who should be the one feeling bad. Infact this whole discussion is back to front. Are we really discussing the etiquette of dealing with people who have no etiquette?
Said drum banger came up to me after and asked me why I asked him to stop. I told him the truth, that he was not playing in time and that he was too loud. "What do you mean I wasn't playing in time?" he asked. I just lost it after that.
# Posted on April 15th 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Go on Michael. Tell us more.
You just lost it? You mean a sort of red mist descended before your eyes and when you came round there were bits of goatskin hanging from the light fittings and the bodhran player was being stretchered off laying on his front`because of where the broken bits of frame had been shoved?
Or was it less dramatic?
# Posted on April 15th 2003 by Ottery
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Michael's back.
Trevor
# Posted on April 16th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: the etiquette of criticism
who? what about his back, trevor?
# Posted on April 16th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Statement of fact. Michael Gill has returned to posting after a long absence.
Trevor
# Posted on April 16th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: the etiquette of criticism
The red mist did indeed come down. Or was it the black mist with the creamy white head? Anyway, said drum offender was saved by a combination of my mates holding me back and my mates giving said offender more of what he deserved.
He kept saying, "but I was playing in time"
and we kept saying, "try using your ears"
and he'd say, "I do listen"
and round and round it went.
Some one told me you can buy a bodrhan in Ireland that comes with a little booklet entitled "learn to play in an hour". I really want to know who wrote that book. can any one out there give me details?
PS I havn't had a mac for three months
# Posted on April 16th 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Michael, Ask your bodhran-bashing buddy- he probably wrote it...
Surreptitiously kicking a bad bodhran player in the shins under cover of the table when you want them to stop playing out of time/too loudly has worked for me in the past - just don't own up to it!
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by jackdaw7
Re: the etiquette of criticism
I hope you're joking 'cos that's asking for trouble. I would never advise the use of violence in a session in any circumstances. And it's cowardly not to own up.
Danny.
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: the etiquette of criticism
Just a joke. You wouldn't really want your session disintegrating into something resembling a saloon-bar fight-scene out of a John Wayne movie.
James
# Posted on April 19th 2003 by jackdaw7
Re: the etiquette of criticism
One time I was playing with a very good fiddler & a new musician came to the session. The leader of the session welcomed him & offered him a seat. We went into some tunes & this guy just started wiggling his fingers & playing a good impression of a dial-up modem. The leader of the session leaned over & said, "Sorry, that's just not working" in a friendly way.
I guess the moral of the story is that humorous stabs & passive agressive behaviour just makes for bad karma down the road. A kind & sensible approach will probably fix the problem quicker. It can be uncomfortable or painless it's all a matter of wording/body language etc..
# Posted on April 22nd 2003 by Mad Baloney