Has anybody here tried the flute lessons at Scoiltrad? If so, what did you think? I'm trying to decide if i start with a "beginner" or "intermediate" lesson, leaning towards intermediate right now. I almost bought a lesson yesterday, but their credit card processor gave out bizarre errors.
Bummer! Glauber, did you try e-mailing them about the errors? That's odd, I thought they had everything pretty much ironed out with them.
Anyway, I know a couple of fluters who have really liked the Scoiltrad lessons. Conal's settings are really cool, too. What I did was start out with an intermediate lesson, as my intonation and skill level is definitely not beginner, but my bowing still has a lot of a way to go, so I'm definitely not advanced. The intermediate lessons are just challenging enough that I'm definitely learning something, but easy enough that I don't feel like a total idiot, either. When I interviewed them, they gave me the name of a guy in Oz named Tim who plays a flute, and he pretty much said the same thing. You can see the comments that Tim gave me at http://www.celticcafe.com/music/scoiltrad/class.html
E-mail the guys at info@scoiltrad.com -- they'll help you fix the credit card problems, I'm sure.
They're thinking the problem with my credit card will go away, so i'll try again later tonight. I was waiting to se if anyone had an opinion on the level, i thought the same way, that the intermediate ones would be challenging enough for me.
The way i looked at it is, i'm pretty advanced as a flute player, but as far as Irish music is concerned, no doubt about it, i'm a beginner. I checked the sound samples and the pieces under "intermediate" sound like pieces i should be able to play at full speed. I'm looking forward to doing this. The fact that they have the personal assessment at the end of the lesson really makes this a great program.
Irina, the classes run a certain way -- the instructor plays the tune through a couple of times at regular speed, and using whatever variations of setting he feels like. Then they go through the version at 50% and 80% speeds, a part at a time, so you can learn it (there's sheet music too, if you need it). Then there's always two variants that they teach you in the setting, and two technique things they teach you. I haven't mastered all four all at once yet. Plus, because the tutor plays his own setting in the full speed, you can spend quite some time figuring out what he's doing with that, as well!
I haven't tried the beginner classes though -- if I somehow get through all the others, I may go back and see what I missed!
Irina,
i just downloaded a flute class, but haven't started working on it yet. If you haven't yet, check the link that Zina gave in her earlier post: http://www.celticcafe.com/music/scoiltrad/class.html
It's a "bow by bow" (yikes!) account of one of the fiddle classes. Also, go ahead and download the sample class they have, even if you don't play the fiddle, it's worth the time spent.
Not a lot of time to practice so far, but i started memorizing the tune this morning. I like the lesson very much. The only new "trick" i got was a different way to do rolls (he likes using the low D in the roll).
All in all, the lesson isn't hard, but what i'm really looking forward to is sending the recording back to to Conal Grada to get his feedback. It will probably take me another 10 days to be ready for that.
If that goes well (and doesn't completely crush my spirit ), i'll probably try an advanced lesson next.
Heh. It took me ages to get up the nerve to actually send my tape. I finally ended up just taping myself practicing the damn thing for about half an hour and then I sent in the try that sounded least nervous.
I think it's the assessment that I do it for more than anything else. I've gotten an awful lot out of the process in general, but it's the assessment that really keeps me motivated.
Be sure to come right out and ask Conal if he thinks you should be up a level. He'll tell you (nicely)!
Well, i sent the assessment today. Let's see what comes back.
I had trouble recording the thing because my computer (Windows 98) refused to record more than 60 seconds (i needed 67!). So i had to do 2 takes and splice them together, which created some space between the tune and the repeat. I sent a note with the recording explaining this to them.
The lads are in San Francisco (and then they come here to Denver on Wednesday). I'm not sure how they're dealing with assessments during this time period. But let us know what they say when you get the assessment back!
My business partner at The Cuirt House, Anne Marie, called up the Plough & Stars in SF yesterday to make sure they'd gotten into town all safe and sound. She got a guy with a strong Ulster accent. She asked if they'd gotten there, and he said "yes, they did, they played here last night" and she asked how they were, and he said, "How were they?! They were f*ckin' mighty!" Heh.
I'll let you know, but only if it's NOT on the lines of "Glauber, you're a disgrace for Irish music and flute players; please stick to the bodhran from now on"!
Still no response from Scoiltrad, almost a month after i sent them my recording. I know they were travelling (because i heard it here), but i didn't get any response from any of the emails i sent them asking what's happening. Sent another email today.
I think Scoiltrad is a great idea and the lesson i bought was wonderful, but they need to work these little things out. Right now. i'm not very happy with them.
I don't know what the lads were up to after they got back to Ireland -- 'tis Kevin you need to poke a bit with that. I'll drop him a line for you if you like.
Thanks to the intervention of the Mighty Zina Lee, my submission file was found. Seems it got misplaced in the server somewhere. I should be getting the results soon.
'Tis not how much you know, but *who* you know that counts!
Oh gawd. I'll just go slink quietly into the background for a little, all right? Heh. You wait. Within a lesson or two, you'll feel quite comfy e-mailing Conal yourself. All three of them are lovely, accessible and friendly people.
They sure are. I just got my assessment back, with some things that i already suspected (my breathing, fear of dropping notes to take breath) and some that i didn't (have to work more on rolls, really can't get away with the classical tonguing instead of the glottal stops).
He recommended a beginners lesson that addresses my problems specifically (Filhty Reel), and i'll download that soon. Also recommended practicing at a slow pace so i can master the basics, and then move on to build repertory.
Go Glauber! Scoiltrad sounds terrific--an honest critque of one's playing is a rare and immensely helpful thing, the shortest road to improvement. Your willingness to share the results is inspiring. I'm learning whistle (the way some people quit smoking--trying again for the umpteenth time), and I'm going to grab it and focus on breathing and rolls right now....
Will
Hey, that's great, Glauber! I hate it when I take a lesson and the teacher doesn't give me really solid things to work on, so I'm sure you find that really helpful! I always think slower is better than faster, myself. I am always having to rein myself in, though, even given that philosophy. Thanks for sharing, as Will says above -- it's a great way for the rest of us to learn as well, so thanks for your generosity in that.
I've no idea what the difference between classical tonguing and glottal stops is on rolls...what does that mean, exactly, said the ignorant fiddler?
The classical tonguing vs glottal stops on rolls is not really about rolls - they're separate issues.
Apparently the traditional irish flute technique rarely uses classical tonguing - articulating using a "tah". Instead, when articulating without using a cut or some other ornament, they use a glottal stop - kind of like articulating with a syllable halfway between a "hah" and a "kah", with a sharp diaphram push. To me it feels a lot like laughing.
That makes sense given that Conal is an extremely powerful fluter -- his style is very forceful and rhythmic ("Top of Coom" inspired a great many players emulating that style). Is that true of the fluters who are very lyrical and flowing as well? Or do they just use the same glottal stop only less frequently?
Playing the flute without articulation is like playing the fiddle but always bowing in the same direction. You have to stop from time to time to get air, but then you continue the same way you were before. This is not very intersting, so you use articulation to create variety.
In most flute playing traditions, this articulation is done with the tongue. Depending on the effect you want, you use something like the sillable "tu" (with a French accent), or "tuku" (double articulation, goes faster) or "tukutu" for triplets, "turu" to create a "hornpipe" feel, etc. In very rare cases you start a note with gentle breath only ("hoo"), without using the tongue, and that's always just for the first note of a slow phrase.
Irish flute playing uses a different kind of articulation, called glottal stops. You "close" your throat, so the air can't come out, then you "open" it, so the air is released with a sudden burst of pressure, sort of like a cough. This is anathema for classical flutists -- you want to keep your throat as "open" as possible all the time.
Irish flutists from the Sligo tradition (like Seamus Tansey) play with a strong rhythm, using the articulation almost percussively, with these "coughs". I imagine that these accented notes correspond to places where a dancer would hit the floor (or whatever the technical term is).
The "other" way is to articulate as little as possible, like pipers do. Use taps and cuts to separate equal notes, breathe only when needed to stay alive. Matt Molloy might be an example of this. He ornaments almost every note.
Most people are somewhere in between these 2 extremes.
The point is, don't use tonguing when playing Irish music. Use ornaments or glottal stops to separate the notes. I'm working on this.
My other problem, according to Conal is with the rolls. I really don't know what's wrong with my rolls, they sound right to me. He recommended a couple of Scoiltrad lessons to deal with these issues, and i'm looking forward to doing them.
The thing with glottal stops and probably the reason they didn't become standard flute technique outside Irish music is that they're not very fast; you can't do fast stacatto phrases with them. But then you don't do fast stacatto phrases in Irish music anyway.
Since i'm blabbing about flute playing the tu-tu, tu-ku, etc, stuff above is just a guide to how you configure your mouth, throat and tongue. You're not supposed to voice the syllables. The French accent thing is important because you want to open up your throat as much as possible, like you have to do when saying the French word for "you" (tu).
There you have it, that's all i know about flute playing.
On the topic of what's wrong with my rolls, it seems to be 2 problems:
(1) I'm still spending too much time on the cut and the pat.
(2) I'm doing rolls as if they were rhythmically equivalent to a triplet (that is, creating 3 notes of equal length). According to Conal, the first note takes half of the beat, then the two others are a quarter beat each.
Back to practing... I downloaded the "Filthy Reel" lesson, and this tune seems to be mostly rolls.
See now, if you take fiddle lessons from Kevin, he'll tell you that you need FIVE notes in your roll, all of an equal length. At least there's less math involved. *grin*
What part of a roll is the "pat"? I'm learning all sorts of stuff about flutes that I didn't know!
Pat is the same thing as tap (and it's also the same thing backwards!). Maybe i just mistyped it? It's the blip from below (like the cut is the blip from above). There's also the short roll to deal with. The short roll is like the long roll without the initial (longer) note.
I just had to go back and check, and yes, he spells it "pat" instead of "tap".
What's killing me in this tune is that there is a long roll on B followed by a short roll on G. He wants me to do this like:
(B{^c}B/{G}B/) ({B}G/{D}G/)
The key is to practice slowly until the fingers "get it". Of course he doesn't do the short roll when he plays the tune at half speed (but it's definitely there when he plays at full speed).
Listening to Conal's performance in the lesson, i still hear 3 equal notes (like a triplet), not long-short-short. Maybe we're talking about the same thing with different words somehow. I'm emailing him to see what he says.
This is what he said before:
[...]
> Each roll consists of a note that is decorated by a cut (at
> least two notes above the note being rolled) and a pat (somewhere > below the
> note being rolled). The duration of both the cut and the pat is negligible
> and they serve only to introduce the desired rhythmic effect.
> Taking the G roll as an example:
Ah, I get my disconnect now -- it IS five notes. I knew I was going to regret having a mental block around the maths! You were explaining it right. I was just hearing it wrong. Heh.
It's five notes, but the cut and the tap/pat are not considered notes, they're done as quickly as possible just as a way to separate the other 3. Does this make sense? They should sound as quick "blips" or squeaks.
It all started with the pipes, where you have constant flow of air. The only way to play the same note more than once is to use a cut or a tap to separate it. I know that with the uilean pipes you can stop the airflow by blocking the end of the canter with your leg, but apparently it's still easier and less "stacatto" to use a cut or a pat. A lot of pipers also play whistle, and the flute technique is in large part adapted from the whistle. So we inherited a lot of our ornamentation from the pipers, by way of the whistle.
Most of the time, the note you use to cut or tap doesn't matter, as long as one is above & the other below the main note. Conal complicates things with his fondness for tapping on low D (it does sound nice).
Yes, I get it -- Kevin likes his rolls completely even once you start the rolls, though. I always find this stuff interesting, the different ways different people ornament.
Now that I can actually play rolls on whistle (thanks to inspiration from Glauber and others on this site), and can compare them to how they work on fiddle, I'll weigh in on this (with the authority vested in me by the little man behind the curtain, never mind the smoke and mirrors).
Long rolls are rhythmically the same on these instruments--one main note that is decorated with cuts and pats. *Most* trad players hold the main note before rippling through the cuts and pats, as Glauber reports, for about half the beat that the long roll will cover. The remaining cut/main note/pat/main note covers the rest of the beat. The result is something like:
DAAAH-di-da-de-da
So you have five "notes" (except the cuts and pats aren't articulated as notes with pitch--just interruptions--hiccups--in the flow of the main note). And the rhythm of the roll is such that the first note is "long," and the remaining four notes are evenly spaced over the remaining beat. On a long roll, that's usually a dotted quarter note (or three eighth notes).
Kevin Burke explains the short roll as the same flurry of five notes, but done without the main note preamble--the second you land on the note to be rolled, you cut and pat it. More of a:
Da-di-da-de-da
The short roll thus lands more on the beat, whereas the long roll delays the cuts and pats till after the beat. A short roll can be used to fill a dotted quarter note space, or can be crammed into a plain quarter note space if your fingers are quick and the tune isn't running away at lightspeed.
Does this help? The point is, the cuts and pats come at the end of the long roll, yet they are evenly spaced within their alloted time there. Imagine a mighty locomotive that is 100 meters long, pulling four box cars each 25 meters long, all barrelling down the track. (This analogy also explains the musical term "train wreck.")
I have recently started the flute and i'm practicing reels at the moment. I have the notes ok but i'm finding it difficult to insert a pulse in to the music. Does anyone have any advice about how to master the timing of reels on the flute?
welcome to a lifetime of fun and frustration.
I said this before, will say again: go to www.scoiltrad.com, get a *beginner* lesson, get advice from a pro. I'm doing "Filthy Reel", and that's nothing but rolls. If you're just starting on the flute, that may be a little too hard. Maybe you could email them and ask for a suggestion of what lesson to take. If you buy your lesson before the end of 2001, you get a second one for free, so remember to ask them to recommend 2 lessons.
Here's Conal O Grada's answer to my question about rolls:
"Hello Glauber
In terms of the duration of notes in a roll its best not to get hung up on
definitions in terms of timing and to let you ears instead search for the
rhythm and effect that you are after. In a roll the first note is emphasised
using a glottal stop and is slightly longer than the other two which have to
include both the cut and the pat. It is very important to have really crisp
cuts and quick definite pats. I think I may have mentioned a good exercise
for rolling...playing a number of rolls on the same note in succession
without taking a breath between them, allocating a beat to each roll,
starting each roll on the beat and using a glottal on the first note of each
roll (what a sentence...I couldn't say it in one breath not to mind play
it!). I reckon that with 10 minutes practice a day over the period of a
month that your rolling technique would really improve."
Hey Oliver -- I think one thing we haven't mentioned yet is to listen listen listen to lots of great music until it's coming out your ears. If you want to play strictly traditional music, stick with the greats, like Conal O'Grada's "Top of Coom", Matt Molloy's anything, etc. If you want to play traditional music with a modern twist, there's Lunasa, Michael McGoldrick, and lots others. The fluters here can give you better examples than me (as I'm a fiddler, not a fluter) of specific albums to listen to.
It'll take a while of listening, but you'll eventually settle on a style that you like, and then it's a matter of listening more, and practicing until your fingers bleed! Don't be too impatient with yourself. It'll come. Kevin Glackin told me that you should expect to be playing about ten years before your rolls and bowed triplets are acceptable. He was kidding. Sort of. Heh.
Glauber, Conal's answer is great! Isn't it funny that Irish musicians always say not to worry about things like timing and things, but if you play it 'wrong', they tell you so immediately? *grin* At least, if they're teaching you, they do. I've been practising scales and rolls for about ten minutes everytime I pick up the fiddle, but not ten minutes just on rolls. I can see I've been slacking off. I shall have to start spending ten minutes with each, and then work my way up from there until they're better. And I'm still working on bowed triplets. *sigh* They're getting better, but I'd still hesitate to trot them out in public.
Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Has anybody here tried the flute lessons at Scoiltrad? If so, what did you think? I'm trying to decide if i start with a "beginner" or "intermediate" lesson, leaning towards intermediate right now. I almost bought a lesson yesterday, but their credit card processor gave out bizarre errors.
g
# Posted on October 23rd 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Bummer! Glauber, did you try e-mailing them about the errors? That's odd, I thought they had everything pretty much ironed out with them.
Anyway, I know a couple of fluters who have really liked the Scoiltrad lessons. Conal's settings are really cool, too. What I did was start out with an intermediate lesson, as my intonation and skill level is definitely not beginner, but my bowing still has a lot of a way to go, so I'm definitely not advanced. The intermediate lessons are just challenging enough that I'm definitely learning something, but easy enough that I don't feel like a total idiot, either. When I interviewed them, they gave me the name of a guy in Oz named Tim who plays a flute, and he pretty much said the same thing. You can see the comments that Tim gave me at http://www.celticcafe.com/music/scoiltrad/class.html
E-mail the guys at info@scoiltrad.com -- they'll help you fix the credit card problems, I'm sure.
Zina
# Posted on October 23rd 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
They're thinking the problem with my credit card will go away, so i'll try again later tonight. I was waiting to se if anyone had an opinion on the level, i thought the same way, that the intermediate ones would be challenging enough for me.
I'll definitely give it a try, then, thanks!
g
# Posted on October 23rd 2001 by glauber
The way i looked at it is, i'm pretty advanced as a flute player, but as far as Irish music is concerned, no doubt about it, i'm a beginner. I checked the sound samples and the pieces under "intermediate" sound like pieces i should be able to play at full speed. I'm looking forward to doing this. The fact that they have the personal assessment at the end of the lesson really makes this a great program.
# Posted on October 23rd 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
I
# Posted on October 23rd 2001 by Irina
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Irina, the classes run a certain way -- the instructor plays the tune through a couple of times at regular speed, and using whatever variations of setting he feels like. Then they go through the version at 50% and 80% speeds, a part at a time, so you can learn it (there's sheet music too, if you need it). Then there's always two variants that they teach you in the setting, and two technique things they teach you. I haven't mastered all four all at once yet. Plus, because the tutor plays his own setting in the full speed, you can spend quite some time figuring out what he's doing with that, as well!
I haven't tried the beginner classes though -- if I somehow get through all the others, I may go back and see what I missed!
Zina
# Posted on October 24th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Irina,
i just downloaded a flute class, but haven't started working on it yet. If you haven't yet, check the link that Zina gave in her earlier post:
http://www.celticcafe.com/music/scoiltrad/class.html
It's a "bow by bow" (yikes!) account of one of the fiddle classes. Also, go ahead and download the sample class they have, even if you don't play the fiddle, it's worth the time spent.
# Posted on October 24th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
"bow by bow". *groan* Bad boy, Glauber. No biscuit! hehehe
(Would that make it "bow by wow"?)
# Posted on October 24th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
So Glauber, how have you liked the lesson so far?
zls
# Posted on October 26th 2001 by Zina Lee
Not a lot of time to practice so far, but i started memorizing the tune this morning. I like the lesson very much. The only new "trick" i got was a different way to do rolls (he likes using the low D in the roll).
), i'll probably try an advanced lesson next.
All in all, the lesson isn't hard, but what i'm really looking forward to is sending the recording back to to Conal Grada to get his feedback. It will probably take me another 10 days to be ready for that.
If that goes well (and doesn't completely crush my spirit
# Posted on October 26th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Heh. It took me ages to get up the nerve to actually send my tape. I finally ended up just taping myself practicing the damn thing for about half an hour and then I sent in the try that sounded least nervous.
I think it's the assessment that I do it for more than anything else. I've gotten an awful lot out of the process in general, but it's the assessment that really keeps me motivated.
Be sure to come right out and ask Conal if he thinks you should be up a level. He'll tell you (nicely)!
Zina
# Posted on October 26th 2001 by Zina Lee
Nicely!
You think?
Well, i sent the assessment today. Let's see what comes back.
I had trouble recording the thing because my computer (Windows 98) refused to record more than 60 seconds (i needed 67!). So i had to do 2 takes and splice them together, which created some space between the tune and the repeat. I sent a note with the recording explaining this to them.
g
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
The lads are in San Francisco (and then they come here to Denver on Wednesday). I'm not sure how they're dealing with assessments during this time period. But let us know what they say when you get the assessment back!
My business partner at The Cuirt House, Anne Marie, called up the Plough & Stars in SF yesterday to make sure they'd gotten into town all safe and sound. She got a guy with a strong Ulster accent. She asked if they'd gotten there, and he said "yes, they did, they played here last night" and she asked how they were, and he said, "How were they?! They were f*ckin' mighty!" Heh.
Zina
P.S. Yes, nicely! heh.
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
I'll let you know, but only if it's NOT on the lines of "Glauber, you're a disgrace for Irish music and flute players; please stick to the bodhran from now on"!
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Yes, I can really see that happening -- NOT. hehehe
# Posted on November 5th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Still no response from Scoiltrad, almost a month after i sent them my recording. I know they were travelling (because i heard it here), but i didn't get any response from any of the emails i sent them asking what's happening. Sent another email today.
I think Scoiltrad is a great idea and the lesson i bought was wonderful, but they need to work these little things out. Right now. i'm not very happy with them.
# Posted on November 23rd 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
I don't know what the lads were up to after they got back to Ireland -- 'tis Kevin you need to poke a bit with that. I'll drop him a line for you if you like.
zls
# Posted on November 23rd 2001 by Zina Lee
Whups, I mean Conal, not Kevin...
# Posted on November 23rd 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Thanks to the intervention of the Mighty Zina Lee, my submission file was found. Seems it got misplaced in the server somewhere. I should be getting the results soon.
'Tis not how much you know, but *who* you know that counts!
# Posted on November 26th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Oh gawd. I'll just go slink quietly into the background for a little, all right? Heh. You wait. Within a lesson or two, you'll feel quite comfy e-mailing Conal yourself.
All three of them are lovely, accessible and friendly people.
Zina
# Posted on November 26th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
They sure are. I just got my assessment back, with some things that i already suspected (my breathing, fear of dropping notes to take breath) and some that i didn't (have to work more on rolls, really can't get away with the classical tonguing instead of the glottal stops).
He recommended a beginners lesson that addresses my problems specifically (Filhty Reel), and i'll download that soon. Also recommended practicing at a slow pace so i can master the basics, and then move on to build repertory.
So i'm not switching to the bodhran yet.
g
# Posted on November 27th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Go Glauber! Scoiltrad sounds terrific--an honest critque of one's playing is a rare and immensely helpful thing, the shortest road to improvement. Your willingness to share the results is inspiring. I'm learning whistle (the way some people quit smoking--trying again for the umpteenth time), and I'm going to grab it and focus on breathing and rolls right now....
Will
# Posted on November 27th 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Hey, that's great, Glauber! I hate it when I take a lesson and the teacher doesn't give me really solid things to work on, so I'm sure you find that really helpful! I always think slower is better than faster, myself. I am always having to rein myself in, though, even given that philosophy. Thanks for sharing, as Will says above -- it's a great way for the rest of us to learn as well, so thanks for your generosity in that.
I've no idea what the difference between classical tonguing and glottal stops is on rolls...what does that mean, exactly, said the ignorant fiddler?
Zina
# Posted on November 27th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
The classical tonguing vs glottal stops on rolls is not really about rolls - they're separate issues.
Apparently the traditional irish flute technique rarely uses classical tonguing - articulating using a "tah". Instead, when articulating without using a cut or some other ornament, they use a glottal stop - kind of like articulating with a syllable halfway between a "hah" and a "kah", with a sharp diaphram push. To me it feels a lot like laughing.
# Posted on November 28th 2001 by jomac
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
That makes sense given that Conal is an extremely powerful fluter -- his style is very forceful and rhythmic ("Top of Coom" inspired a great many players emulating that style). Is that true of the fluters who are very lyrical and flowing as well? Or do they just use the same glottal stop only less frequently?
Zina
# Posted on November 28th 2001 by Zina Lee
Flute articulation
Playing the flute without articulation is like playing the fiddle but always bowing in the same direction. You have to stop from time to time to get air, but then you continue the same way you were before. This is not very intersting, so you use articulation to create variety.
In most flute playing traditions, this articulation is done with the tongue. Depending on the effect you want, you use something like the sillable "tu" (with a French accent), or "tuku" (double articulation, goes faster) or "tukutu" for triplets, "turu" to create a "hornpipe" feel, etc. In very rare cases you start a note with gentle breath only ("hoo"), without using the tongue, and that's always just for the first note of a slow phrase.
Irish flute playing uses a different kind of articulation, called glottal stops. You "close" your throat, so the air can't come out, then you "open" it, so the air is released with a sudden burst of pressure, sort of like a cough. This is anathema for classical flutists -- you want to keep your throat as "open" as possible all the time.
Irish flutists from the Sligo tradition (like Seamus Tansey) play with a strong rhythm, using the articulation almost percussively, with these "coughs". I imagine that these accented notes correspond to places where a dancer would hit the floor (or whatever the technical term is).
The "other" way is to articulate as little as possible, like pipers do. Use taps and cuts to separate equal notes, breathe only when needed to stay alive. Matt Molloy might be an example of this. He ornaments almost every note.
Most people are somewhere in between these 2 extremes.
The point is, don't use tonguing when playing Irish music. Use ornaments or glottal stops to separate the notes. I'm working on this.
My other problem, according to Conal is with the rolls. I really don't know what's wrong with my rolls, they sound right to me. He recommended a couple of Scoiltrad lessons to deal with these issues, and i'm looking forward to doing them.
glauber
# Posted on November 30th 2001 by glauber
The thing with glottal stops and probably the reason they didn't become standard flute technique outside Irish music is that they're not very fast; you can't do fast stacatto phrases with them. But then you don't do fast stacatto phrases in Irish music anyway.
# Posted on November 30th 2001 by glauber
Tukutuku
Since i'm blabbing about flute playing the tu-tu, tu-ku, etc, stuff above is just a guide to how you configure your mouth, throat and tongue. You're not supposed to voice the syllables. The French accent thing is important because you want to open up your throat as much as possible, like you have to do when saying the French word for "you" (tu).
There you have it, that's all i know about flute playing.
# Posted on November 30th 2001 by glauber
Rolling in trouble
On the topic of what's wrong with my rolls, it seems to be 2 problems:
(1) I'm still spending too much time on the cut and the pat.
(2) I'm doing rolls as if they were rhythmically equivalent to a triplet (that is, creating 3 notes of equal length). According to Conal, the first note takes half of the beat, then the two others are a quarter beat each.
Back to practing... I downloaded the "Filthy Reel" lesson, and this tune seems to be mostly rolls.
# Posted on December 3rd 2001 by glauber
Filthy Reel -- filthy rolls
Yikes! now i decided i don't know how to do rolls, at all. I may still be looking for that bodhran after all.
# Posted on December 3rd 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
See now, if you take fiddle lessons from Kevin, he'll tell you that you need FIVE notes in your roll, all of an equal length. At least there's less math involved. *grin*
What part of a roll is the "pat"? I'm learning all sorts of stuff about flutes that I didn't know!
zls
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by Zina Lee
Pat
Pat is the same thing as tap (and it's also the same thing backwards!). Maybe i just mistyped it? It's the blip from below (like the cut is the blip from above). There's also the short roll to deal with. The short roll is like the long roll without the initial (longer) note.
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by glauber
I just had to go back and check, and yes, he spells it "pat" instead of "tap".
What's killing me in this tune is that there is a long roll on B followed by a short roll on G. He wants me to do this like:
(B{^c}B/{G}B/) ({B}G/{D}G/)
The key is to practice slowly until the fingers "get it". Of course he doesn't do the short roll when he plays the tune at half speed (but it's definitely there when he plays at full speed).
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by glauber
Listening to Conal's performance in the lesson, i still hear 3 equal notes (like a triplet), not long-short-short. Maybe we're talking about the same thing with different words somehow. I'm emailing him to see what he says.
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Let me know what Conal says -- now I'm curious!
zls
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by Zina Lee
Conal O'Roll
This is what he said before:
[...]
> Each roll consists of a note that is decorated by a cut (at
> least two notes above the note being rolled) and a pat (somewhere > below the
> note being rolled). The duration of both the cut and the pat is negligible
> and they serve only to introduce the desired rhythmic effect.
> Taking the G roll as an example:
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Ah, I get my disconnect now -- it IS five notes. I knew I was going to regret having a mental block around the maths!
You were explaining it right. I was just hearing it wrong. Heh.
zls
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by Zina Lee
Notes and blips
It's five notes, but the cut and the tap/pat are not considered notes, they're done as quickly as possible just as a way to separate the other 3. Does this make sense? They should sound as quick "blips" or squeaks.
It all started with the pipes, where you have constant flow of air. The only way to play the same note more than once is to use a cut or a tap to separate it. I know that with the uilean pipes you can stop the airflow by blocking the end of the canter with your leg, but apparently it's still easier and less "stacatto" to use a cut or a pat. A lot of pipers also play whistle, and the flute technique is in large part adapted from the whistle. So we inherited a lot of our ornamentation from the pipers, by way of the whistle.
Most of the time, the note you use to cut or tap doesn't matter, as long as one is above & the other below the main note. Conal complicates things with his fondness for tapping on low D (it does sound nice).
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Yes, I get it -- Kevin likes his rolls completely even once you start the rolls, though. I always find this stuff interesting, the different ways different people ornament.
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Now that I can actually play rolls on whistle (thanks to inspiration from Glauber and others on this site), and can compare them to how they work on fiddle, I'll weigh in on this (with the authority vested in me by the little man behind the curtain, never mind the smoke and mirrors).
Long rolls are rhythmically the same on these instruments--one main note that is decorated with cuts and pats. *Most* trad players hold the main note before rippling through the cuts and pats, as Glauber reports, for about half the beat that the long roll will cover. The remaining cut/main note/pat/main note covers the rest of the beat. The result is something like:
DAAAH-di-da-de-da
So you have five "notes" (except the cuts and pats aren't articulated as notes with pitch--just interruptions--hiccups--in the flow of the main note). And the rhythm of the roll is such that the first note is "long," and the remaining four notes are evenly spaced over the remaining beat. On a long roll, that's usually a dotted quarter note (or three eighth notes).
Kevin Burke explains the short roll as the same flurry of five notes, but done without the main note preamble--the second you land on the note to be rolled, you cut and pat it. More of a:
Da-di-da-de-da
The short roll thus lands more on the beat, whereas the long roll delays the cuts and pats till after the beat. A short roll can be used to fill a dotted quarter note space, or can be crammed into a plain quarter note space if your fingers are quick and the tune isn't running away at lightspeed.
Does this help? The point is, the cuts and pats come at the end of the long roll, yet they are evenly spaced within their alloted time there. Imagine a mighty locomotive that is 100 meters long, pulling four box cars each 25 meters long, all barrelling down the track. (This analogy also explains the musical term "train wreck.")
Will
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
I have recently started the flute and i'm practicing reels at the moment. I have the notes ok but i'm finding it difficult to insert a pulse in to the music. Does anyone have any advice about how to master the timing of reels on the flute?
# Posted on December 4th 2001 by oliver
Rolls
Hello, Oliver,
welcome to a lifetime of fun and frustration.
I said this before, will say again: go to www.scoiltrad.com, get a *beginner* lesson, get advice from a pro. I'm doing "Filthy Reel", and that's nothing but rolls. If you're just starting on the flute, that may be a little too hard. Maybe you could email them and ask for a suggestion of what lesson to take. If you buy your lesson before the end of 2001, you get a second one for free, so remember to ask them to recommend 2 lessons.
Here's Conal O Grada's answer to my question about rolls:
"Hello Glauber
In terms of the duration of notes in a roll its best not to get hung up on
definitions in terms of timing and to let you ears instead search for the
rhythm and effect that you are after. In a roll the first note is emphasised
using a glottal stop and is slightly longer than the other two which have to
include both the cut and the pat. It is very important to have really crisp
cuts and quick definite pats. I think I may have mentioned a good exercise
for rolling...playing a number of rolls on the same note in succession
without taking a breath between them, allocating a beat to each roll,
starting each roll on the beat and using a glottal on the first note of each
roll (what a sentence...I couldn't say it in one breath not to mind play
it!). I reckon that with 10 minutes practice a day over the period of a
month that your rolling technique would really improve."
# Posted on December 5th 2001 by glauber
Re: Scoiltrad flute lessons?
Hey Oliver -- I think one thing we haven't mentioned yet is to listen listen listen to lots of great music until it's coming out your ears. If you want to play strictly traditional music, stick with the greats, like Conal O'Grada's "Top of Coom", Matt Molloy's anything, etc. If you want to play traditional music with a modern twist, there's Lunasa, Michael McGoldrick, and lots others. The fluters here can give you better examples than me (as I'm a fiddler, not a fluter) of specific albums to listen to.
Don't be too impatient with yourself. It'll come. Kevin Glackin told me that you should expect to be playing about ten years before your rolls and bowed triplets are acceptable. He was kidding. Sort of. Heh.
It'll take a while of listening, but you'll eventually settle on a style that you like, and then it's a matter of listening more, and practicing until your fingers bleed!
Glauber, Conal's answer is great! Isn't it funny that Irish musicians always say not to worry about things like timing and things, but if you play it 'wrong', they tell you so immediately? *grin* At least, if they're teaching you, they do. I've been practising scales and rolls for about ten minutes everytime I pick up the fiddle, but not ten minutes just on rolls. I can see I've been slacking off. I shall have to start spending ten minutes with each, and then work my way up from there until they're better. And I'm still working on bowed triplets. *sigh* They're getting better, but I'd still hesitate to trot them out in public.
zls
# Posted on December 5th 2001 by Zina Lee