I keep hearing tunes I want to learn. Often they have been composed by living Irish players. Or at least alive during the 20th c.
I would guess some players actually 'write' their tunes ~ while other composers play them but never write them out.
I respect that the tradition is passed along by hearing the tunes played. No dispute, that is what makes it a living tradition . . . but ~
& it is just a question ~ "Who has actually written their tunes on paper?"
To show my ignorance I will give my assumptions about two composers. I have always assumed Charlie Lennon 'wrote' out some tunes. Alternatively I assume Paddy O'Brien played his compositions & (eventually) they were written out by someone else.
My ulterior motive is that I am very curious about who comes up with all these tunes. Also I should mention I am mainly curious about the tunes of players who are no longer with us but were here not so long ago.
Thanks!
I suppose it boils down to whether the originator of the tune was able to read and write the dots. If he could, then he would be more likely to commit the tune to paper at some stage, perhaps as part of his personal "tune book". Otherwise, if the tune gets played often enough then someone else will notice it and take the trouble to transcribe it (or today, record it and then transcribe it) - an example of the survival of the fittest. That's how most of O'Neill's massive collection came about.
It seems Fr. PJ Kelly left many manuscripts of his own compositions. You can listen to the interview about his tunebook on The Late Session Programme Listings 2007: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thelatesession/1121129.html
Programme 21: 27th May 2007 http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-latesession-2007-05-27.smil
(starts around 46:40)
"Fr. PJ Kelly, who died last year, was a well-known composer from East Galway. On tonight's show, his colleague, Fr. Alo Connaughton, will discuss the recently published collection of Fr Kelly's tunes."
My blood was ready to boil on reading the title of this forum, but then........
There are of course three different types of "original trad" compositions;
those written/composed by trad musicians, accepted into the repertoire because they fit with all the others;
those written by people too lazy to find other tunes to fill their cds; you won't hear these ever again, they're cr*p;
those writen by people completely outside the tradition, who have no idea how ITM/STM, etc., work; these too will fade unless they're in part of a larger artwork which gets released into the public consciousness. Art/classical/modern pro composers really don't get the basic musical ideas that underline traditional music, and will come up with ersatz compositions that won't appeal to the trad community of musicians, and so won't get repeated and replayed.
Certainly some musicians "working in the tradition" never wrote their stuff down - they had little idea that it would come to be valued, and played it for themselves and their friends, and reached their satisfaction that way. And, if it's good, it gets accepted into the tradition. It doesn't take too long.
Also I should mention I am mainly curious about the tunes of players who are no longer with us but were here not so long ago.
Thanks!
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Tonya
If that's the case you shouldn't have mentioned Charlie Lennon who is very much alive!!!
I think most composers come up with the tunes in their heads or with an instrument and some of them eventually write them down, this is what Charlie does. Of course some of them can't read or write music so it remains in their heads or on tape until someone transcribes them.
This is the case with the late Ed Reavy, it was his son Joseph who wrote them down. Reavy is perhaps the most performed/recorded of recent tune composers.
Here's an interesting quote from Tommy Peoples who's written some great tunes.
"I would have written down a good few in a certain period. Generally I tend to just write a tune down on paper rather than pull an instrument out. It might change a little bit afterwards. I generally do that if I'm sitting down with some spare time on my hands, being a non- practicing workaholic."
Paddy Fahey doesn't write his tunes down, they're all in his memory although most of them have been notated and are available in an MA Thesis in UL done by Maria Holohan.
Some other recent composers of great tunes include Junior Crehan, Liz Carroll and Finbar Dwyer
I'd also like to take exception to Guernsey Pete saying
'Art/classical/modern pro composers really don't get the basic musical ideas that underline traditional music,'
That's too big a generalisation, while it is probably true of 'most' classical composers there are some people who write extended 'classical-style' works who also regularly play traditional music. Seán O'Riada being one example from the past. Trouble is this is mainly true outside of Ireland and Britain in that it is only in places like Eastern Europe where traditional music is taken very seriously by the classical establishment. Trad is still looked down upon here to some extent and so some Irish composers think they can 'improve' the music and think they get all they need to know about the music through sheet-music. But that's a whole other issue to what Tonya was on about......
Charlie Lennon is very much alive.
I hope my post did not imply anything else.
My mention of Charlie Lennon is for several reasons.
You do not have to be dead to qualify . . . but you are (deceased) I do not want to forget those Irish composers.
Apologies to Mr. Lennon & frisbee!
Ed Reavy's tunes have also been written down--you can buy the books or open an abc file here: http://www.reavy.us/
Even when written down, such tunes still go through the "folk process" of being changed as they're played and aurally passed along by all us folks. Which is how a tune written in the traditional idiom becomes even more "traditional."
Tony "Sully" Sullivan is a compser of superb tunes. In another thread Bliss talks about 'Exile of Erin', but he also composed 'Arkle Mountain', 'Butlers of Glen Avenue' and 'Sully's No. 37'. Most have been recorded somewhere by the likes of Mike McGoldrick and Danu.
For thoose that haven't heard it, check out 'King of the Session', a more recent slip jig in Am that is up there with the best of them in my opinion.
Frisbee may be right about me, I was in Grumpy Old Man mode, but someone claimed recently, in an article in the Guardian, that a friend of his, a compser, "could dash off a couple of traditional tunes before breakfast".
Well, who will know for a generation or two ?
That brings it full circle. When do you embrace a tune before it has survived the test of time?
For the thread I was focusing on 20th c. composers. However, at our session we play tunes composed in this century as well. In the long run some tunes may not find their way into the tradition. Still, if I like what I hear. . . I will try to introduce a few. Maybe some of the young upstarts will stand beside the older tunes in the future. Others ~ will fizzle.
original traditional compostions
original traditional compostions
I keep hearing tunes I want to learn. Often they have been composed by living Irish players. Or at least alive during the 20th c.
I would guess some players actually 'write' their tunes ~ while other composers play them but never write them out.
I respect that the tradition is passed along by hearing the tunes played. No dispute, that is what makes it a living tradition . . . but ~
& it is just a question ~ "Who has actually written their tunes on paper?"
To show my ignorance I will give my assumptions about two composers. I have always assumed Charlie Lennon 'wrote' out some tunes. Alternatively I assume Paddy O'Brien played his compositions & (eventually) they were written out by someone else.
My ulterior motive is that I am very curious about who comes up with all these tunes. Also I should mention I am mainly curious about the tunes of players who are no longer with us but were here not so long ago.
Thanks!
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Tonya
Re: original traditional compositions
I suppose it boils down to whether the originator of the tune was able to read and write the dots. If he could, then he would be more likely to commit the tune to paper at some stage, perhaps as part of his personal "tune book". Otherwise, if the tune gets played often enough then someone else will notice it and take the trouble to transcribe it (or today, record it and then transcribe it) - an example of the survival of the fittest. That's how most of O'Neill's massive collection came about.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: original traditional compostions
It seems Fr. PJ Kelly left many manuscripts of his own compositions. You can listen to the interview about his tunebook on The Late Session Programme Listings 2007: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thelatesession/1121129.html
Programme 21: 27th May 2007 http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-latesession-2007-05-27.smil
(starts around 46:40)
"Fr. PJ Kelly, who died last year, was a well-known composer from East Galway. On tonight's show, his colleague, Fr. Alo Connaughton, will discuss the recently published collection of Fr Kelly's tunes."
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by slainte
Re: original traditional compostions
My blood was ready to boil on reading the title of this forum, but then........
There are of course three different types of "original trad" compositions;
those written/composed by trad musicians, accepted into the repertoire because they fit with all the others;
those written by people too lazy to find other tunes to fill their cds; you won't hear these ever again, they're cr*p;
those writen by people completely outside the tradition, who have no idea how ITM/STM, etc., work; these too will fade unless they're in part of a larger artwork which gets released into the public consciousness. Art/classical/modern pro composers really don't get the basic musical ideas that underline traditional music, and will come up with ersatz compositions that won't appeal to the trad community of musicians, and so won't get repeated and replayed.
Certainly some musicians "working in the tradition" never wrote their stuff down - they had little idea that it would come to be valued, and played it for themselves and their friends, and reached their satisfaction that way. And, if it's good, it gets accepted into the tradition. It doesn't take too long.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: original traditional compostions
Also I should mention I am mainly curious about the tunes of players who are no longer with us but were here not so long ago.
Thanks!
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Tonya
If that's the case you shouldn't have mentioned Charlie Lennon who is very much alive!!!
I think most composers come up with the tunes in their heads or with an instrument and some of them eventually write them down, this is what Charlie does. Of course some of them can't read or write music so it remains in their heads or on tape until someone transcribes them.
This is the case with the late Ed Reavy, it was his son Joseph who wrote them down. Reavy is perhaps the most performed/recorded of recent tune composers.
Here's an interesting quote from Tommy Peoples who's written some great tunes.
"I would have written down a good few in a certain period. Generally I tend to just write a tune down on paper rather than pull an instrument out. It might change a little bit afterwards. I generally do that if I'm sitting down with some spare time on my hands, being a non- practicing workaholic."
http://www.irishfiddle.com/peoplesinterview.html
Paddy Fahey doesn't write his tunes down, they're all in his memory although most of them have been notated and are available in an MA Thesis in UL done by Maria Holohan.
Some other recent composers of great tunes include Junior Crehan, Liz Carroll and Finbar Dwyer
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: original traditional compostions
I'd also like to take exception to Guernsey Pete saying
'Art/classical/modern pro composers really don't get the basic musical ideas that underline traditional music,'
That's too big a generalisation, while it is probably true of 'most' classical composers there are some people who write extended 'classical-style' works who also regularly play traditional music. Seán O'Riada being one example from the past. Trouble is this is mainly true outside of Ireland and Britain in that it is only in places like Eastern Europe where traditional music is taken very seriously by the classical establishment. Trad is still looked down upon here to some extent and so some Irish composers think they can 'improve' the music and think they get all they need to know about the music through sheet-music. But that's a whole other issue to what Tonya was on about......
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: original traditional compostions
Charlie Lennon is very much alive.
I hope my post did not imply anything else.
My mention of Charlie Lennon is for several reasons.
You do not have to be dead to qualify . . . but you are (deceased) I do not want to forget those Irish composers.
Apologies to Mr. Lennon & frisbee!
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Tonya
Re: original traditional compostions
Ed Reavy's tunes have also been written down--you can buy the books or open an abc file here: http://www.reavy.us/
Even when written down, such tunes still go through the "folk process" of being changed as they're played and aurally passed along by all us folks. Which is how a tune written in the traditional idiom becomes even more "traditional."
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: original traditional compostions
Tony "Sully" Sullivan is a compser of superb tunes. In another thread Bliss talks about 'Exile of Erin', but he also composed 'Arkle Mountain', 'Butlers of Glen Avenue' and 'Sully's No. 37'. Most have been recorded somewhere by the likes of Mike McGoldrick and Danu.
For thoose that haven't heard it, check out 'King of the Session', a more recent slip jig in Am that is up there with the best of them in my opinion.
His web site is: http://www.halshawmusic.co.uk
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: original traditional compostions
Frisbee may be right about me, I was in Grumpy Old Man mode, but someone claimed recently, in an article in the Guardian, that a friend of his, a compser, "could dash off a couple of traditional tunes before breakfast".
Well, who will know for a generation or two ?
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: original traditional compostions
That brings it full circle. When do you embrace a tune before it has survived the test of time?
For the thread I was focusing on 20th c. composers. However, at our session we play tunes composed in this century as well. In the long run some tunes may not find their way into the tradition. Still, if I like what I hear. . . I will try to introduce a few. Maybe some of the young upstarts will stand beside the older tunes in the future. Others ~ will fizzle.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Tonya
Re: original traditional compostions
A tune only survives the "test of time" if players embrace it as a newborn. And then more players embrace it as it skates through adolescence.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Will Harmon