I have noticed over the years people reaching a standered that allows them to make money, or at which they are content, and staying there, .In itself ,this is not bad, however i also note other peoples reaction to this!
That being annoyance, that year after year these people do not improve, their 'game' stays at the same level. They continue to arrive at the session, play badly, perhaps not learning new tunes, or just playing them with terrible rhythm etc
So really i was hoping that this post might alert some people that perhaps this might be you?!
And the antidote to this is self evaluation, honest reflection, and focused practice.
Now i note some people do not practice,simply playing at the session, and i would suggest that, apart from the lucky few who are so gifted, this approach could perhaps be the cause of this lack of progress.
I hear some people saying that they see no need to improve, they are already brilliant! This might be the case,however this same attitude is one they would condemn in others, arriving at the session,playing there instrument poorly, or not knowing the tunes etc.
So ; at what point, if any do you consider it ok to stop practicing
I just read this weekend that "mastering" playing an instrument requires 10,000 hours of practice. At 3 hours of practice a day it would take 10 years. The book claimed that talent has little to do with it and that if you put that kind of effort into most things, not just music, you could master it in that amount of time. Not my opinion just the books. But I'm running out of years fast.
For me, playing music is about expression and having fun, not about perfecting technique. That said, I imagine my playing will always change and grow with me through the years. There's always room for improvement, in service to being expressive and having fun.
I don't think I'll ever be satidfied with my playing and practice every chance I get. However, Jig - I think you may have unrealistic expectations if you think everybody is going to have the same passion for this as you do. Some folks are very content just keeping this as a quirky little hobby. Some folks simply have a tin ear, no musical gifts what-so-ever - but still like to participate as best they can because, after all, it is a lot of fun. That is the beauty and the beast of this communal music.
Jig, I guess you can take some satisfaction in knowing that the vast majority of people who post here probably practice and play quite a bit . Let's face it, if we post here we are probably a bit crazy and obsessive about this music.
OK but the technique is there solely to facilitate expression.
My point is that a focus on the 'self having fun' can be detrimental to the group activity, the session. the lack of technique in an individual , in a group context , can be a reason why some people are not so welcome. I may be happy strumming my jazz chords but others maybe not.
Do we not have some sort of obligation to continue to improve so as not to impede others progress if we wish to play with others? Or is it acceptable to simply remain at a level we are having fun at, after all it can be hard work to improve.Are we not just being lazy? and self centered?
Jig, some folks are lazy, but many more simply cannot do what you are asking. For those that are wrecking your session because of absolute clueless behavior - well, you know what to do. Otherwise, you will just have to decide if you want to run out the casual musicians who will never achieve what you are striving and asking for simply because they do not, nor will they ever, possess the skill. It is up to the musician to decide how much they want to improve - but it is up to the individual session to decide how much perpetual incompetence they are willing to endure. Eventually, the folks who chose not to progress (or cannot progress) are left in the dust anyway right?
Oh come on, how ever busy you are you can spend 10 minutes a day to improve! Any how its not my sessions, rather friends of mine.
I gave up on many sessions years ago for a number of reasons, this being just one.
The point of this discussion is not to moan, rather to try to offer another viewpoint, We can all; improve, I don't care how good you are, you can get better! Are we not servants of Irish music, or is it just a toy for us to play with, like spoilt children?
To my mind the tunes are there, in the ether, all we are doing is articulating them, manifesting them,alright, this might be a bit esoteric, but we are all entitled to our views!
Oh, I agree Jig - everyone can improve - if they have the desire. Not everyone has that fire in them - so how do we deal with them in our sessions? I have no idea how to politely motivate somebody else who has not progressed one iota in three years of session playing without sounding like an arogant ass. I have some friends who grew up in New York sessions who would probably at some point just turn to the plodder and say "Yo, youse have been comin' in here for three years now - how come you still suck so F#@*^% bad? I just personally could never do that to somebody. So how do you handle it? I just go about my business and accept those kinds of folks as part of the landscape.
Jig, I think there is something very definately part of a person's make-up here. There seems to me to be a range, although I don't know how to measure it. It starts with people who never want to learn anything and at the other end of the scale people who thrive and literally almost die if they cannot continue to learn.
Being an old wrinkly with a few years experience, I have never had to try to continue to learn and am thankful that I have been given the trait of needing to expand my knowledge. I can remember school, which I loved and just thriving on the new.
This said, one could say that I'm being very self-centered because I am following my own needs without thinking of others. I don't see this myself, however I may just be self-centered!
Having said this, I really think that the "kick" one gets out of learning something new or improving something already known, gets transmitted to others through one's own heightened awareness and pleasures.
I’m not sure this makes sense now I’ve read it, but what the hell it’s how I feel. I’m somewhat fortunate that living on my own, I’m able to play and practice whenever and for whatever length of time I decide. I think many people succumb to the pressures of their own environment and use them as an excuse to stop learning. Peer pressure, work pressure etc has a lot to do with it I’m sure.
One thing is certain, to continue on a road of learning is the most valuable gift I was ever given! It makes me sad to see some people, who obviously have a talent, literally throw away their time in mundane life pastimes as a matter of course. I have many musicians who fit your description Lig, and like you, I believe there is always room for improvement. The end result, especially in playing music, is that others around you benefit directly from that improvement.
Phew…… sorry about that, but your thread got to me…..
if i hadn't spent so much time woodshedding yesterday that my fingers are stiff and my shoulders hurt i'd think i was being nagged. there are things i want to be better at and things i need to do. i play because i need to play. i used to want to be a better artist, but i just didn't find that i *needed* to paint. i know folks who say "i need to practice more!", but they don't really need to, or they would. no amount of nagging will help.
hey thats Jig not lig!
I like this;
>>"Yo, youse have been comin' in here for three years now - how come you still suck so F#@*^% bad? <<
Maybe i will try it one day!
Fair enough, all of you.
I would say that its perhaps because no one has ever said this to them that they continue to arrive at the sessions somewhat worse than they were last week!
Maybe we should practice saying something like this in the mirror so that when push comes to shove we can just say it without hesitation!
Anyhow if the cap fits, wear it....
If you think this might apply to you.... do something about it!
I don't practise. Not ever. The only thing I ever do is rehearse some bit of a tune that trips me up sometimes. There's a bit in the B part of Spootiskerry and there's a bit in the B part of Willafjord, for example. I just need to play the offending bars a couple of times through to repair the busted neural connections. This I can do just before the chaps strike up the first bars. I play this moosic for fun. I am not going to practise having fun, thank you. If you think that makes me a sloppy muso, I invite you to come and listen. Though just don't expect me to perform.
"I play this moosic for fun. I am not going to practise having fun, thank you. "
See, I've found that the better I get - which is strongly correlated to the amount that I practice - the more fun I have. So I suppose I do practice having fun.
Jig, I am with you. If you don't practise then at best you can hope for is not to get any worse. That is fine for people who are content with their lot and it's great that people can enjoy the music at different levels. Of course the music is about enjoyment but more me the more I practise the more I enjoy playing. The downside is that the more I practise the less people I enjoy playing with. I hate big sessions with 10 or more musicians - just sounds like a big blurry mess to me. Give me 5 of 6 folk who practise any day.
Of course I expect to be shot down in flames for expressing these thoughts but as far as I'm concerned those who make excuses not to practise don't love the music as much as they make out they do and are just kidding themselves
Bogman - your sentiments are not unusual by any means, and probably reflect the attitudes of most of us. For example, if you are a 4 handicap on the golfcourse, it's only natural you would rather play with other skilled golfers rather than somebody who needs 15 strokes just to reach the pin.
However, it might do us all some good to adjust our expectations somewhat to fit the type of sessions we attend. When you go to a session that you KNOW is large or has many beginners, it seems a pointless excersise to get upset when those folks then play to their skill and comfort level.
Not all of us a blessed like Steve Shaw and his highly developed neural synapses. I need to practice - not just because I want to get better, but because I can't stop touching my instrument... er, wait - that didn't sound right.
Good point Jusa. I shouldn't have said I 'hate' big sessions. That is a bit generalistic. I hate most big sessions but not always. If it's at my local I'm usually quite happy to play with most folk but I don't often join in with large sessions in other places. I do find it stange when people have little interest in learning new tunes though. Is it not for the tunes we are in this for in the first place?
Another nice sideswipe from tat! Never mind. I am not blessed with highly-developed neural connections nor have I stopped developing since my teens. In fact I didn't start until my 40s. And I actually feel really sorry for anyone who thinks that sex is about helping each other to achieve peak experiences. Very hippy. We'll all end up being regaled with anecdotes about "the session experience" next. Right. You practise your instrument to get to a proficient standard, and after that you have fun learning tunes from whatever source and then even more fun by playing in sessions. This site is not primarily for people who are learning to play their instrument. It is about acquiring tunes and playing them in an authentic style of one's choosing (no paradox intended!). That is not practice. That is fun. And you grow and develop whilst you're at it. Unless it's your life's mission to preach to others about it all of course.
The first post ended with 'So ; at what point, if any do you consider it ok to stop practicing?' If you are learning new tunes then you're practising them. Who can find a new tune and play it without practising? There are folk who do neither though and that can lead to frustrations.
Steve, at this point you are content with your level of playing, you can play the tunes you like, to a level you are happy with. this is fine, great,but at some point in the future you may start to feel 'stale' you may get fed up with your repertoire and wish to move up a level, there will. if i am not mistaken be tunes you will, today, find very hard to play. to play these tunes you will need to practice. practice is not dull, it is fun! the small gains from one week will add up over the course of a year,this is satisfying. rewarding.
However, to my mind this discussion is not about the quantity of tunes, rather the quality. The expression, subtle variation,the tasteful positioning of ornaments, the fluid, relaxed hallmark of players who have put the hours in,at home, in the woodshed, when other folk are out having 'fun' getting p*ssed, or watching big brother!
I thought it was all about you, actually, Mr Disingenuous. However. Petty side-issues aside, OK bogman, of course you are right about new tunes. This is just a difference in the way we use words. I've never regarded the repetition of tunes in order to learn them as "practice," though it's clearly OK to view the process in those terms if you like. Practice is what I consciously did many moons ago to get the chops. When I learn a new tune I am probably still unconsciously honing the chops (I hope so), especially when trying to pick up the trickier bits of tunes, but I'm no longer consciously aware of that aspect so I don't regard it as practice. The word "practice" has blood, sweat, tears, schoolroom and chore written all over it, and I don't get that when I'm learning a new tune. I'm ridiculously enthusiastic about getting out there and playing it as soon as possible, usually long before it's insinuated itself properly into my tiny brain, but that's all part of the fun (and the learning, which never stops). But heavens above, we both know what we're talking about so let's bandy words no more.
Oh snap! - Steve just played the "tradpiper" card - ouch. To be fair - Steve it was me Nutter, who joked about your blessed synapses, not CPT. But I was only messing around - not trying to insult you.
It sound like you gents are just arguing semantics and word choices right now. Whether it's ironing out wrinkles, learning new tunes, or just woodshedding for the joy/pain of it - I think we all agree, there's nothing wrong with wanting and trying to improve.
Fair do's Steve. Maybe the word 'practise' should be replaced with a more fun sounding word for when we leave school, (bit late for both of us I know ) I do like threads like this though as I think there are ideas for all of us to think about.
At some point, most of us improve just by playing, without necessarily slaving away at some practice regimen. But it doesn't hurt to pay attention to aspects that can bear to be improved.
In a pinch, a pint of 8.5 percent porter always improves my playing....
Practice? I doubt many people have much opportunity to practise, due to the demands of work, spouses, children etc. The best most can do is get out to a session once a week. Personally, I'm blessed in that I am single, without children and I repair instruments in a music shop, so I'm constantly surrounded by instruments to pick up and play a tune on. Even so, I'm lazy and impatient, so I don't 'practise' as such - I play whatever tune I feel like playing, perhaps I'll try playing a tune that is in my head but I haven't played before. I would, no doubt, be a far better musician if I allocated time each day for structured practice.
But to say that, because I don't do this, I don't improve would be a fallacy. There are things that can be learned from playing with other musicians that could not be learned from any amount of solitary practice. I am fortunate enough to have two sessions a week right on my doorstep, and organise a few private ones now and again, so there's plenty of opportunity. Having moved in the last year, I have had to learn a new repertoire (very little of which is Irish, incidentally, so new styles of playing, as well).
I admit that, without a solid practice routine, my technique has been more-or less on a plateau for the last 3 or 4 years, with occasional small leaps following intensive spates of playing (during the summer festival season in Ireland, for example) and the (minimum) necessary advances to facilitate new styles.
Verdict: Guilty
"And the antidote to this is self evaluation, honest reflection, and focused practice."
Sorry, Jusa ( I can't bring myself to call you either "nutter" or "eejit!"), I rolled two posts into one there to take a pot at and you were not the intended target of my untimely contumely. On the whole we all seem to be agreeing, which can be boring though a certain unmistakable warmth can emanate therefrom too. Maybe it's just impossible to divorce practice from the tune-learning process.
Following the analogy, if vehicles ahead are holding you up, do you want to allow yourself to get frustrated, tailgate and honk your horn, or would you prefer to plan ahead, give a reasonable signal, and pass them by?
The post was in reference to a friend of mine who was bemoaning a few players we both know's lack of tangible improvement over the course of the last 10-15 years. And dedicated to other folk i know who mistakenly think they already know 'it all'.
So it got me thinking about the motivation to improve and lack of it, and why?
In one of those cases it is surely an overinflated ego, in others i think simply they are unaware of how they sound. If you always/only play at sessions then it is easy to hide behind the better players.
But i think that it is also commensurate upon us to respect the music, which to my mind means to play it well, perhaps only a few airs, but played well, or specializing in jigs,perhaps concentrateing on a smaller no of tunes.
In a way perhaps it is like a circle,start with the harvest home , and after a few decades perhaps returning to it but with a greater depth of understanding. But the journey in between!
[disclaimer: the below isn't aimed at anyone posting here]
I really can't understand how someone could feel that they were at a level where it was unnecessary to try to improve. To me, the better you are the more motivated you should be to improve.
If you're a really good player who can belt out tunes perfectly without any practice or effort, then why not shoot for greatness?
If you're good, why not work to become great? If you're great, why not shoot be become a master? How can you not want to take your investment of time and effort to another level, especially if you have a shot at reaching a level few acheive?
I can understand a lack of motivation at a low skill level, but I just can't understand it at a high level of skill. I guess it's possible to hit the ceiling on your talent, but I think very few people actually approach the limits of their potential.
If you're winning a marathon, why sit down a few feet from the finish line and call it "good enough?"
To comment on name' changes s post above, No one mentioned solitary! Bands practice.. they focus on aspects of playing together that can be improved by discussion and decision. In fact a band practice can comprise more talking than playing, but still progress, rapidly.
Fair enough it may be tedious, and it may rufel ego's and feathers, but it works. same with solo practice. perfecting a rif, or staying with that metronome can be tedious, but does it pay off in the long run? yes it does.
Funny that i always thought it was folk that didn't practice but insist on playing at sessions who were the w@!"£$s
Well, you know what thought did don't you. And I suppose you sit in sessions, decide who are the w@!"£$s and then brand them as non-practisers. How unsympathetic you must sometimes seem. Some of us have better things to evaluate. And, while you're at it, own up.
Actually steve i dont. Unsympathetic? yep thats me. Damn i guess you took that comment personally! i can honestly say it was not aimed at you in any way. It was simply a response to wyogal.....Never mind, not the first time i put my foot in my mouth!
actually, it was someone in a band that called practice mm.
Sometimes I practice, sometimes not so much. My husband and I perform together, but very rarely do we practice together. We did a couple of times and it was kind of like the time we wallpapered the bathroom together.... not a good idea! Our gigs are kind of like dates for us... I know, we need to get a life!!
We tell our audience that they don't know just how "live" the music really is!
Most of the people I know who admit to not practicing or playing much between sessions are simply overwhelmed with work, house remodeling, kids, laundry, etc. For most of these, it's a "time of life" issue--they're dealing with young kids, both parents working full time, doing all of the housekeeping and maintenance themselves cuz they can't afford a professional, and on and on.
At my local level, I'm just happy these people are motivated enough to keep playing at all, coming to the sessions, joining in the craic, and occasionally picking up a new tune along the way.
The rest of my session mates and me are busy, too, but we manage to make time on a regualr basis to learn tunes, hone our chops, etc. Most of us have played one, two, or three decades, and we're keenly aware that if we miss a day of playing, we feel rusty. If we miss two days, other musicians notice that we sound rusty. And if we miss three days in a row, *everyone* knows we're rusty.
But it's also nice to finally reach the stage where, if you really can't play for the days between sessions, you're back in the swing of things within 15 minutes of tunes. Sometimes, a break even does you some good.
I'm sorry, i don't buy that. if you want to do something you will find a way. if you don't, you will find an excuse!
10 minutes a day adds up over time.that is a minimum. For example, if my students ar'nt willing to put that in, then i am not interested in teaching them, its that simple.
Thats 4 1/2 hours focused practice over a month. Your telling me these folk don't find time to kick back in front of the telly, or cant find time to go for a drink ! Its a matter of priority's .
Why do we play? why do we session? Why practice?
I just remembered one thing I do practise. Changeovers in sets, especially new ones. Disastrous to not do this I've found. Mind you, you could still call that rehearsal, not practice. I'm hanging on by a thread here!
Jig, I don't disagree in principle, but life isn't always that easy for us mortals. I know people who've battled serious, debilitating illness for years, people raising disabled kids, people with two or three jobs, etc.
All I'm saying is that there can be times in a person's life when the music has to take a back seat, no matter how much you love it. Sometimes this is just a month or two. But sometimes life gangs up on a person and a years can go by where there's just no time to worry about your musical progress.
For some of us, our professional lives keep us away from home until later in the evening. . . . a time I don;t care to play my flute because it's annoying for the neighbors.
OTOH the harp is a perfect late-night instrument. It still sounds soothing even if the player sucks.
No one said it was easy tat! not me... what i say is that it depends on your motivation. If they are suffering under the circumstances you describe then how do they find time to go to a session? or play at all?
My point is simple; if you want to improve, practice every day for at least 10 min, if you dont , and you dont really care then what are you doing on this site?
I can assure you that ingraining the daily habbit is worth while.
For example wormdiet; go and stand in a field, or under an overpass to practise, at least you are not trying to learn the saxaphone!
If you want to do it you will find a way. Do you?
jig, and others, there's a point at which the learning curve levels off, to the point that 10 min/day isn't enough to keep improving. Such little practice, for all but absolute beginners, is barely enough to *maintain* one's skills.
I currently put 10-12h/week into my instrument, a figure that has been fairly constant for the last year or so, and it's definitely been taking me more time than it used to to see small improvements. Heck, when I first started, it took me a scant few hours to go from never having held a bow before, to being able to play a simple tune (albeit quite badly). Now, I'm devoting a great deal of my practice time to honing certain skills that seem like they should be a lot simpler to develop than they've turned out to be. Lack of time *is* an issue, probably even moreso for very skilled players. I'm sure that eventually I'll get to the point that 10-12h/week will not be enough time for me to improve my technique. Then again, by that time my technique and experience will probably be sufficient for me to use my time learning new tunes more effective.
I have a second hobby, wheel-thrown pottery, that I've been doing seriously for some six years. I'm currently at a level where I'd need to spend upwards of ten hours per week in the studio in order to see any significant improvement. I simply don't have the time or inclination for that; I have other interests and commitments. Unless I decide to become a professional potter, I'll have to content myself on working on new forms every here and there, making headway when I can but not taking improvement as a given consequence of the time I put in. Meanwhile, my pottery students can muck about for a few minutes every other week or so and get reasonably good quite quickly.
Ok, my 10 min is just a minimum. But none the less, if those 10 are committed to they can easily stretch out to an hour or more.
My point is that if a day goes by without practice that can turn into a week, and into a month and........
Its a principle i am suggesting. Daily focus on personal improvement. And to be honest i would class pulling the fiddle out and polishing it or changing a string as part of that focus. Without fail. some directed attention.
After 30 yrs at this game I still do this. Recently ive been focused on building a house, and I admit that after 8-10hours hard graft , i have let slip this focus, but temporarily. And I actually am lucky enough in general to be able to devote a lot more than 10m a day to my 'study'.
I am a serious musician, i have been nearly all my life. It is fun, but it is also work.
I know full well that not everyone can or wants to devote their life to music. That is not what i am on about. One instrument, one style is more than enough for most folk.
And 10-20min a day is enough to move forward, especially including weekly sessions.
This daily focus will allow a busy person to progress, perhaps not rapidly, but progress to a degree.
No argument there jig. But most of us who participate here probably do put in the time on a daily or at least regular basis. I've played this music for 30 years, daily (except when injuries--e.g., a crushed ulnar nerve)intervened. So you're preaching to the choir, championing the obvious.
All my students get the same mantra: "Better to do 10 minutes a day than skip a day and play for an hour." It's the daily repetition that creates the neural synapses for tunes and techniques.
But when a student calls and tells me their dad is dying or the house burned down, or they've been up three days with a kid with the croup, I don't remind them to practice 10 minutes every day anyway. Life happens.
That business of "mastering an instrument takes 10K hours" is really concerned with those youngsters in classical music who start learning an instrument at about age 5 and will have attained complete technical mastery by their mid-teens if they expect to win world-class competitions by their mid-twenties and an assurance of lucrative contracts thereafter. The work-load these musicians do is tougher than most of us can imagine, and continues right through their working life.
Musicians at that stratospheric level clearly are the exception, by definition, but it's quite feasible for a much larger number of older people to reach a professional standard (i.e. good enough for others to pay to hear them or take lessons from them) on the basis of 4-6K of the RIGHT sort of study and practice - say 20 hours per week for 4-6 years. The will to do it, application, and a good teacher are the most important factors.
Trevor, if it's the same book I read (This is Your Brain on Music), the author (a neuroscientist) extapolates that 10k hours to any age and basically any complex skill.
But I agree that many adults don't realize how many thousands of hours those child "prodigies" put in on their instruments to get as good as they are.
The other good news for us oldsters is that it doesn't take as many hours to learn a new instrument to a fairly high level of ability if you have "mastered" a different instrument in the same genre. At least that's been my experience. I'm by no means a brilliant tenor banjo or flute player yet, but I'm lightyears ahead on both compared to where I was just 4 years in on fiddle (back in my teens). And I don't play banjo and flute near as much as I should.
Bit like learning a third language--the first and second languages grease the chutes for subsequent tongues (so to speak).
Fair enough tat, for the converted,all i do is state the obvious. For the likes of those who turn up at sessions, play out of tune, sans rhythm, still playing the same sets they were 5 yrs ago, these post are for you. Some people do , no doubt, rest on their laurels, however faded they might be.
To them it is acceptable to stay at their 'present' leval.
To be honest i think this relates to so mant complaints i read on this forum, like Micky Finn's post the other day.
Lazy's comment about the right sort of study bears a second look. After all practicing playing out of tune with bad rhythm will help you get better; at playing out of tune with bad rhythm!
This post wasnt inspired by newbies, but by people who should , perhaps, know better.
I think the objective is to be able to play without others, and still sound great. Just playing at sessions will allow them to hide behind the larger sound, relying on a backer to give the rhythm say.
Newbies are often inspired, they may not have so many 'chops' but they sure know they want them! and can be focused on getting them. Its people who have played to a poor standard for years that this is aimed at. those who dont practice to improve because they cant be bothered.
I agree from experiance about 2nd instruments being easier, but your point about 2nd or 3rd languages ! my girlfriend speaks 5 languages fluently and i struggle with one, my first language!
I have actually been thinking about this post and applying it to another aspect of my life. Sometimes it is not so clear how to start a project that is so large it can be intimidating, so i am going to apply my own medicine to; my 2nd language and next project. I too drift through life more than i feel i like...... So ....
"To comment on name' changes s post above, No one mentioned solitary! Bands practice."
True, Jig. i was thinking that as I was writing, not least because I am currently playing in a few 'bands', if we allow a fairly broad description of the word. Practising as a band offers, of course, its own benefits to the individual musician as well as to the band as a whole. But, while playing as part of a band may help develop, say, precision of timing and rhythmic drive, it does not usually offer much opportunity to focus on finer details, such as ornamentation and individual variation - features which are central to being a good traditional musician. There is not much use in going to a band practice every week without practising your own parts individually from one week to the next (...which, admittedly, I too often do).
Anyway, jig, I was assuming that since, for most of us, playing traditional music is primarily about playing informally and recreationally, rather than 'performing', that we were talking about solitary practice.
Fair enough, but the discussion was actually broader, encompassing self evaluation, and honest reflection. remember?
My point is that there are many facets to this game, ignoring one part in favor of another is not recommended.
You can end up on the wrong end of someones glare at a session if you dont practice at home, and all work and no play make jack a very dull boy! as they say. so i should get out more!
Expanding on my last, I suppose you might choose to practise together with a fellow musician rather than in isolation - not necessarily the same as a 'band practice', since you may not be rehearsing with a view to giving a performance together. But at what point does a joint practice session cross over into being a session? If you play tunes together with a friend, is that not a session? A smaller session, maybe, than you'll typically find in a pub, but otherwise, what's the difference?
To my mind that is a session. The difference to as i see it is whether you are playing in public..
Also by practicing i really mean taking an aspect of your playing, be it a tune, or 'rolls' or part of a tune or a particular picking or bowing technique etc and focusing on that aspect . Repeating it till it gets boring, then doing it some more. Im a great man for scales,arpeggios and patterns. I found that this kind of practice really paid off . So that upon returning to the group activity, sessions etc these little aspects of my playing all added up.
I prefer smaller sessions in some ways, two people, rhythm and melody. or say fiddle flute and rhythm.[backing].
Id just like to say that 2 days have gone by and my new resolution to spend 10m on my Spanish and next project has not taken off yet.
But i will keep at it. right, today. and i have those 20 min to catch up with too!
The continual search to improve.
The continual search to improve.
I have noticed over the years people reaching a standered that allows them to make money, or at which they are content, and staying there, .In itself ,this is not bad, however i also note other peoples reaction to this!
That being annoyance, that year after year these people do not improve, their 'game' stays at the same level. They continue to arrive at the session, play badly, perhaps not learning new tunes, or just playing them with terrible rhythm etc
So really i was hoping that this post might alert some people that perhaps this might be you?!
And the antidote to this is self evaluation, honest reflection, and focused practice.
Now i note some people do not practice,simply playing at the session, and i would suggest that, apart from the lucky few who are so gifted, this approach could perhaps be the cause of this lack of progress.
I hear some people saying that they see no need to improve, they are already brilliant! This might be the case,however this same attitude is one they would condemn in others, arriving at the session,playing there instrument poorly, or not knowing the tunes etc.
So ; at what point, if any do you consider it ok to stop practicing
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
When I'm perfect
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Kheelch
Re: The continual search to improve.
I just read this weekend that "mastering" playing an instrument requires 10,000 hours of practice. At 3 hours of practice a day it would take 10 years. The book claimed that talent has little to do with it and that if you put that kind of effort into most things, not just music, you could master it in that amount of time. Not my opinion just the books. But I'm running out of years fast.
Mary
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Antikhntr
Re: The continual search to improve.
Stop practicing? May as well stop playing.
I would never want to get to a point where I couldn't improve, that would be depressing. Fortunately, that isn't going to happen.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Marklar
Re: The continual search to improve.
For me, playing music is about expression and having fun, not about perfecting technique. That said, I imagine my playing will always change and grow with me through the years. There's always room for improvement, in service to being expressive and having fun.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: The continual search to improve.
I don't think I'll ever be satidfied with my playing and practice every chance I get. However, Jig - I think you may have unrealistic expectations if you think everybody is going to have the same passion for this as you do. Some folks are very content just keeping this as a quirky little hobby. Some folks simply have a tin ear, no musical gifts what-so-ever - but still like to participate as best they can because, after all, it is a lot of fun. That is the beauty and the beast of this communal music.
Jig, I guess you can take some satisfaction in knowing that the vast majority of people who post here probably practice and play quite a bit . Let's face it, if we post here we are probably a bit crazy and obsessive about this music.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The continual search to improve.
OK but the technique is there solely to facilitate expression.
My point is that a focus on the 'self having fun' can be detrimental to the group activity, the session. the lack of technique in an individual , in a group context , can be a reason why some people are not so welcome. I may be happy strumming my jazz chords but others maybe not.
Do we not have some sort of obligation to continue to improve so as not to impede others progress if we wish to play with others? Or is it acceptable to simply remain at a level we are having fun at, after all it can be hard work to improve.Are we not just being lazy? and self centered?
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
Jig, some folks are lazy, but many more simply cannot do what you are asking. For those that are wrecking your session because of absolute clueless behavior - well, you know what to do. Otherwise, you will just have to decide if you want to run out the casual musicians who will never achieve what you are striving and asking for simply because they do not, nor will they ever, possess the skill. It is up to the musician to decide how much they want to improve - but it is up to the individual session to decide how much perpetual incompetence they are willing to endure. Eventually, the folks who chose not to progress (or cannot progress) are left in the dust anyway right?
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The continual search to improve.
Oh come on, how ever busy you are you can spend 10 minutes a day to improve! Any how its not my sessions, rather friends of mine.
I gave up on many sessions years ago for a number of reasons, this being just one.
The point of this discussion is not to moan, rather to try to offer another viewpoint, We can all; improve, I don't care how good you are, you can get better! Are we not servants of Irish music, or is it just a toy for us to play with, like spoilt children?
To my mind the tunes are there, in the ether, all we are doing is articulating them, manifesting them,alright, this might be a bit esoteric, but we are all entitled to our views!
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
Oh, I agree Jig - everyone can improve - if they have the desire. Not everyone has that fire in them - so how do we deal with them in our sessions? I have no idea how to politely motivate somebody else who has not progressed one iota in three years of session playing without sounding like an arogant ass. I have some friends who grew up in New York sessions who would probably at some point just turn to the plodder and say "Yo, youse have been comin' in here for three years now - how come you still suck so F#@*^% bad? I just personally could never do that to somebody. So how do you handle it? I just go about my business and accept those kinds of folks as part of the landscape.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The continual search to improve.
Jig, I think there is something very definately part of a person's make-up here. There seems to me to be a range, although I don't know how to measure it. It starts with people who never want to learn anything and at the other end of the scale people who thrive and literally almost die if they cannot continue to learn.
Being an old wrinkly with a few years experience, I have never had to try to continue to learn and am thankful that I have been given the trait of needing to expand my knowledge. I can remember school, which I loved and just thriving on the new.
This said, one could say that I'm being very self-centered because I am following my own needs without thinking of others. I don't see this myself, however I may just be self-centered!
Having said this, I really think that the "kick" one gets out of learning something new or improving something already known, gets transmitted to others through one's own heightened awareness and pleasures.
I’m not sure this makes sense now I’ve read it, but what the hell it’s how I feel. I’m somewhat fortunate that living on my own, I’m able to play and practice whenever and for whatever length of time I decide. I think many people succumb to the pressures of their own environment and use them as an excuse to stop learning. Peer pressure, work pressure etc has a lot to do with it I’m sure.
One thing is certain, to continue on a road of learning is the most valuable gift I was ever given! It makes me sad to see some people, who obviously have a talent, literally throw away their time in mundane life pastimes as a matter of course. I have many musicians who fit your description Lig, and like you, I believe there is always room for improvement. The end result, especially in playing music, is that others around you benefit directly from that improvement.
Phew…… sorry about that, but your thread got to me…..
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by tctelboy
Re: The continual search to improve.
if i hadn't spent so much time woodshedding yesterday that my fingers are stiff and my shoulders hurt i'd think i was being nagged. there are things i want to be better at and things i need to do. i play because i need to play. i used to want to be a better artist, but i just didn't find that i *needed* to paint. i know folks who say "i need to practice more!", but they don't really need to, or they would. no amount of nagging will help.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by 'tinamatt
Re: The continual search to improve.
hey thats Jig not lig!
I like this;
>>"Yo, youse have been comin' in here for three years now - how come you still suck so F#@*^% bad? <<
Maybe i will try it one day!
Fair enough, all of you.
I would say that its perhaps because no one has ever said this to them that they continue to arrive at the sessions somewhat worse than they were last week!
Maybe we should practice saying something like this in the mirror so that when push comes to shove we can just say it without hesitation!
Anyhow if the cap fits, wear it....
If you think this might apply to you.... do something about it!
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
I don't practise. Not ever. The only thing I ever do is rehearse some bit of a tune that trips me up sometimes. There's a bit in the B part of Spootiskerry and there's a bit in the B part of Willafjord, for example. I just need to play the offending bars a couple of times through to repair the busted neural connections. This I can do just before the chaps strike up the first bars. I play this moosic for fun. I am not going to practise having fun, thank you. If you think that makes me a sloppy muso, I invite you to come and listen. Though just don't expect me to perform.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
"I play this moosic for fun. I am not going to practise having fun, thank you. "
See, I've found that the better I get - which is strongly correlated to the amount that I practice - the more fun I have. So I suppose I do practice having fun.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: The continual search to improve.
Jig, I am with you. If you don't practise then at best you can hope for is not to get any worse. That is fine for people who are content with their lot and it's great that people can enjoy the music at different levels. Of course the music is about enjoyment but more me the more I practise the more I enjoy playing. The downside is that the more I practise the less people I enjoy playing with. I hate big sessions with 10 or more musicians - just sounds like a big blurry mess to me. Give me 5 of 6 folk who practise any day.
Of course I expect to be shot down in flames for expressing these thoughts but as far as I'm concerned those who make excuses not to practise don't love the music as much as they make out they do and are just kidding themselves
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by bogman
Re: The continual search to improve.
Bogman - your sentiments are not unusual by any means, and probably reflect the attitudes of most of us. For example, if you are a 4 handicap on the golfcourse, it's only natural you would rather play with other skilled golfers rather than somebody who needs 15 strokes just to reach the pin.
However, it might do us all some good to adjust our expectations somewhat to fit the type of sessions we attend. When you go to a session that you KNOW is large or has many beginners, it seems a pointless excersise to get upset when those folks then play to their skill and comfort level.
Not all of us a blessed like Steve Shaw and his highly developed neural synapses. I need to practice - not just because I want to get better, but because I can't stop touching my instrument... er, wait - that didn't sound right.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The continual search to improve.
Playing music is like making love--the better you and your partner(s) are at helping each other acheive peak experiences, the more fun it is.
I feel sorry for anyone who thinks they learned all they need to know about either back in their teens....
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: The continual search to improve.
Good point Jusa. I shouldn't have said I 'hate' big sessions. That is a bit generalistic. I hate most big sessions but not always. If it's at my local I'm usually quite happy to play with most folk but I don't often join in with large sessions in other places. I do find it stange when people have little interest in learning new tunes though. Is it not for the tunes we are in this for in the first place?
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by bogman
Re: The continual search to improve.
CPT - I still get the same feedback from both (sex and sessions)
"Whoa! what's the rush?"
or
"what exactly are trying to DO there...?"
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The continual search to improve.
Ha ha, good one CPT. Maybe some of the old standard tunes are the missionary - everyone enjoys them but why stop there?
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by bogman
Re: The continual search to improve.
Another nice sideswipe from tat! Never mind. I am not blessed with highly-developed neural connections nor have I stopped developing since my teens. In fact I didn't start until my 40s. And I actually feel really sorry for anyone who thinks that sex is about helping each other to achieve peak experiences. Very hippy. We'll all end up being regaled with anecdotes about "the session experience" next. Right. You practise your instrument to get to a proficient standard, and after that you have fun learning tunes from whatever source and then even more fun by playing in sessions. This site is not primarily for people who are learning to play their instrument. It is about acquiring tunes and playing them in an authentic style of one's choosing (no paradox intended!). That is not practice. That is fun. And you grow and develop whilst you're at it. Unless it's your life's mission to preach to others about it all of course.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
The first post ended with 'So ; at what point, if any do you consider it ok to stop practicing?' If you are learning new tunes then you're practising them. Who can find a new tune and play it without practising? There are folk who do neither though and that can lead to frustrations.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by bogman
Re: The continual search to improve.
Erm, Steve, not everything's about *you,* okay?
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: The continual search to improve.
Steve, at this point you are content with your level of playing, you can play the tunes you like, to a level you are happy with. this is fine, great,but at some point in the future you may start to feel 'stale' you may get fed up with your repertoire and wish to move up a level, there will. if i am not mistaken be tunes you will, today, find very hard to play. to play these tunes you will need to practice. practice is not dull, it is fun! the small gains from one week will add up over the course of a year,this is satisfying. rewarding.
However, to my mind this discussion is not about the quantity of tunes, rather the quality. The expression, subtle variation,the tasteful positioning of ornaments, the fluid, relaxed hallmark of players who have put the hours in,at home, in the woodshed, when other folk are out having 'fun' getting p*ssed, or watching big brother!
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
I thought it was all about you, actually, Mr Disingenuous. However. Petty side-issues aside, OK bogman, of course you are right about new tunes. This is just a difference in the way we use words. I've never regarded the repetition of tunes in order to learn them as "practice," though it's clearly OK to view the process in those terms if you like. Practice is what I consciously did many moons ago to get the chops. When I learn a new tune I am probably still unconsciously honing the chops (I hope so), especially when trying to pick up the trickier bits of tunes, but I'm no longer consciously aware of that aspect so I don't regard it as practice. The word "practice" has blood, sweat, tears, schoolroom and chore written all over it, and I don't get that when I'm learning a new tune. I'm ridiculously enthusiastic about getting out there and playing it as soon as possible, usually long before it's insinuated itself properly into my tiny brain, but that's all part of the fun (and the learning, which never stops). But heavens above, we both know what we're talking about so let's bandy words no more.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
Thanks for the advice, tradpiper.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
Oh snap! - Steve just played the "tradpiper" card - ouch. To be fair - Steve it was me Nutter, who joked about your blessed synapses, not CPT. But I was only messing around - not trying to insult you.
It sound like you gents are just arguing semantics and word choices right now. Whether it's ironing out wrinkles, learning new tunes, or just woodshedding for the joy/pain of it - I think we all agree, there's nothing wrong with wanting and trying to improve.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The continual search to improve.
Fair do's Steve. Maybe the word 'practise' should be replaced with a more fun sounding word for when we leave school, (bit late for both of us I know
) I do like threads like this though as I think there are ideas for all of us to think about.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by bogman
Re: The continual search to improve.
At some point, most of us improve just by playing, without necessarily slaving away at some practice regimen. But it doesn't hurt to pay attention to aspects that can bear to be improved.
In a pinch, a pint of 8.5 percent porter always improves my playing....
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: The continual search to improve.
Practice? I doubt many people have much opportunity to practise, due to the demands of work, spouses, children etc. The best most can do is get out to a session once a week. Personally, I'm blessed in that I am single, without children and I repair instruments in a music shop, so I'm constantly surrounded by instruments to pick up and play a tune on. Even so, I'm lazy and impatient, so I don't 'practise' as such - I play whatever tune I feel like playing, perhaps I'll try playing a tune that is in my head but I haven't played before. I would, no doubt, be a far better musician if I allocated time each day for structured practice.
But to say that, because I don't do this, I don't improve would be a fallacy. There are things that can be learned from playing with other musicians that could not be learned from any amount of solitary practice. I am fortunate enough to have two sessions a week right on my doorstep, and organise a few private ones now and again, so there's plenty of opportunity. Having moved in the last year, I have had to learn a new repertoire (very little of which is Irish, incidentally, so new styles of playing, as well).
I admit that, without a solid practice routine, my technique has been more-or less on a plateau for the last 3 or 4 years, with occasional small leaps following intensive spates of playing (during the summer festival season in Ireland, for example) and the (minimum) necessary advances to facilitate new styles.
Verdict: Guilty
"And the antidote to this is self evaluation, honest reflection, and focused practice."
I think I score a safe 2 out of 3.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The continual search to improve.
Sorry, Jusa ( I can't bring myself to call you either "nutter" or "eejit!"), I rolled two posts into one there to take a pot at and you were not the intended target of my untimely contumely. On the whole we all seem to be agreeing, which can be boring though a certain unmistakable warmth can emanate therefrom too. Maybe it's just impossible to divorce practice from the tune-learning process.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
"continue on a road of learning" (tctelboy)
Following the analogy, if vehicles ahead are holding you up, do you want to allow yourself to get frustrated, tailgate and honk your horn, or would you prefer to plan ahead, give a reasonable signal, and pass them by?
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: The continual search to improve.
The post was in reference to a friend of mine who was bemoaning a few players we both know's lack of tangible improvement over the course of the last 10-15 years. And dedicated to other folk i know who mistakenly think they already know 'it all'.
So it got me thinking about the motivation to improve and lack of it, and why?
In one of those cases it is surely an overinflated ego, in others i think simply they are unaware of how they sound. If you always/only play at sessions then it is easy to hide behind the better players.
But i think that it is also commensurate upon us to respect the music, which to my mind means to play it well, perhaps only a few airs, but played well, or specializing in jigs,perhaps concentrateing on a smaller no of tunes.
In a way perhaps it is like a circle,start with the harvest home , and after a few decades perhaps returning to it but with a greater depth of understanding. But the journey in between!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
[disclaimer: the below isn't aimed at anyone posting here]
I really can't understand how someone could feel that they were at a level where it was unnecessary to try to improve. To me, the better you are the more motivated you should be to improve.
If you're a really good player who can belt out tunes perfectly without any practice or effort, then why not shoot for greatness?
If you're good, why not work to become great? If you're great, why not shoot be become a master? How can you not want to take your investment of time and effort to another level, especially if you have a shot at reaching a level few acheive?
I can understand a lack of motivation at a low skill level, but I just can't understand it at a high level of skill. I guess it's possible to hit the ceiling on your talent, but I think very few people actually approach the limits of their potential.
If you're winning a marathon, why sit down a few feet from the finish line and call it "good enough?"
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Marklar
Re: The continual search to improve.
Flippin' Nora.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
Not you, screetch.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
I've heard of another word for practice, actually two words: Musical mastur....... you get it.....
ha
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Wyogal
Re: The continual search to improve.
I thought that phrase meant something else entirely.
This one time at band camp...
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Marklar
Re: The continual search to improve.
LOL, went to band camp for years!!! Although didn't use a flute....
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Wyogal
Re: The continual search to improve.
Funny that i always thought it was folk that didn't practice but insist on playing at sessions who were the w@!"£$s
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
To comment on name' changes s post above, No one mentioned solitary! Bands practice.. they focus on aspects of playing together that can be improved by discussion and decision. In fact a band practice can comprise more talking than playing, but still progress, rapidly.
Fair enough it may be tedious, and it may rufel ego's and feathers, but it works. same with solo practice. perfecting a rif, or staying with that metronome can be tedious, but does it pay off in the long run? yes it does.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
Funny that i always thought it was folk that didn't practice but insist on playing at sessions who were the w@!"£$s
Well, you know what thought did don't you. And I suppose you sit in sessions, decide who are the w@!"£$s and then brand them as non-practisers. How unsympathetic you must sometimes seem. Some of us have better things to evaluate. And, while you're at it, own up.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
Actually steve i dont. Unsympathetic? yep thats me. Damn i guess you took that comment personally! i can honestly say it was not aimed at you in any way. It was simply a response to wyogal.....Never mind, not the first time i put my foot in my mouth!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
actually, it was someone in a band that called practice mm.
Sometimes I practice, sometimes not so much. My husband and I perform together, but very rarely do we practice together. We did a couple of times and it was kind of like the time we wallpapered the bathroom together.... not a good idea! Our gigs are kind of like dates for us... I know, we need to get a life!!
We tell our audience that they don't know just how "live" the music really is!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Wyogal
Re: The continual search to improve.
Most of the people I know who admit to not practicing or playing much between sessions are simply overwhelmed with work, house remodeling, kids, laundry, etc. For most of these, it's a "time of life" issue--they're dealing with young kids, both parents working full time, doing all of the housekeeping and maintenance themselves cuz they can't afford a professional, and on and on.
At my local level, I'm just happy these people are motivated enough to keep playing at all, coming to the sessions, joining in the craic, and occasionally picking up a new tune along the way.
The rest of my session mates and me are busy, too, but we manage to make time on a regualr basis to learn tunes, hone our chops, etc. Most of us have played one, two, or three decades, and we're keenly aware that if we miss a day of playing, we feel rusty. If we miss two days, other musicians notice that we sound rusty. And if we miss three days in a row, *everyone* knows we're rusty.
But it's also nice to finally reach the stage where, if you really can't play for the days between sessions, you're back in the swing of things within 15 minutes of tunes. Sometimes, a break even does you some good.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: The continual search to improve.
I'm sorry, i don't buy that. if you want to do something you will find a way. if you don't, you will find an excuse!
10 minutes a day adds up over time.that is a minimum. For example, if my students ar'nt willing to put that in, then i am not interested in teaching them, its that simple.
Thats 4 1/2 hours focused practice over a month. Your telling me these folk don't find time to kick back in front of the telly, or cant find time to go for a drink ! Its a matter of priority's .
Why do we play? why do we session? Why practice?
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
I just remembered one thing I do practise. Changeovers in sets, especially new ones. Disastrous to not do this I've found. Mind you, you could still call that rehearsal, not practice. I'm hanging on by a thread here!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The continual search to improve.
Jig, I don't disagree in principle, but life isn't always that easy for us mortals. I know people who've battled serious, debilitating illness for years, people raising disabled kids, people with two or three jobs, etc.
All I'm saying is that there can be times in a person's life when the music has to take a back seat, no matter how much you love it. Sometimes this is just a month or two. But sometimes life gangs up on a person and a years can go by where there's just no time to worry about your musical progress.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: The continual search to improve.
For some of us, our professional lives keep us away from home until later in the evening. . . . a time I don;t care to play my flute because it's annoying for the neighbors.
OTOH the harp is a perfect late-night instrument. It still sounds soothing even if the player sucks.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by wormdiet
Re: The continual search to improve.
No one said it was easy tat! not me... what i say is that it depends on your motivation. If they are suffering under the circumstances you describe then how do they find time to go to a session? or play at all?
My point is simple; if you want to improve, practice every day for at least 10 min, if you dont , and you dont really care then what are you doing on this site?
I can assure you that ingraining the daily habbit is worth while.
For example wormdiet; go and stand in a field, or under an overpass to practise, at least you are not trying to learn the saxaphone!
If you want to do it you will find a way. Do you?
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
jig, and others, there's a point at which the learning curve levels off, to the point that 10 min/day isn't enough to keep improving. Such little practice, for all but absolute beginners, is barely enough to *maintain* one's skills.
I currently put 10-12h/week into my instrument, a figure that has been fairly constant for the last year or so, and it's definitely been taking me more time than it used to to see small improvements. Heck, when I first started, it took me a scant few hours to go from never having held a bow before, to being able to play a simple tune (albeit quite badly). Now, I'm devoting a great deal of my practice time to honing certain skills that seem like they should be a lot simpler to develop than they've turned out to be. Lack of time *is* an issue, probably even moreso for very skilled players. I'm sure that eventually I'll get to the point that 10-12h/week will not be enough time for me to improve my technique. Then again, by that time my technique and experience will probably be sufficient for me to use my time learning new tunes more effective.
I have a second hobby, wheel-thrown pottery, that I've been doing seriously for some six years. I'm currently at a level where I'd need to spend upwards of ten hours per week in the studio in order to see any significant improvement. I simply don't have the time or inclination for that; I have other interests and commitments. Unless I decide to become a professional potter, I'll have to content myself on working on new forms every here and there, making headway when I can but not taking improvement as a given consequence of the time I put in. Meanwhile, my pottery students can muck about for a few minutes every other week or so and get reasonably good quite quickly.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: The continual search to improve.
Ok, my 10 min is just a minimum. But none the less, if those 10 are committed to they can easily stretch out to an hour or more.
My point is that if a day goes by without practice that can turn into a week, and into a month and........
Its a principle i am suggesting. Daily focus on personal improvement. And to be honest i would class pulling the fiddle out and polishing it or changing a string as part of that focus. Without fail. some directed attention.
After 30 yrs at this game I still do this. Recently ive been focused on building a house, and I admit that after 8-10hours hard graft , i have let slip this focus, but temporarily. And I actually am lucky enough in general to be able to devote a lot more than 10m a day to my 'study'.
I am a serious musician, i have been nearly all my life. It is fun, but it is also work.
I know full well that not everyone can or wants to devote their life to music. That is not what i am on about. One instrument, one style is more than enough for most folk.
And 10-20min a day is enough to move forward, especially including weekly sessions.
This daily focus will allow a busy person to progress, perhaps not rapidly, but progress to a degree.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
No argument there jig. But most of us who participate here probably do put in the time on a daily or at least regular basis. I've played this music for 30 years, daily (except when injuries--e.g., a crushed ulnar nerve)intervened. So you're preaching to the choir, championing the obvious.
All my students get the same mantra: "Better to do 10 minutes a day than skip a day and play for an hour." It's the daily repetition that creates the neural synapses for tunes and techniques.
But when a student calls and tells me their dad is dying or the house burned down, or they've been up three days with a kid with the croup, I don't remind them to practice 10 minutes every day anyway. Life happens.
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: The continual search to improve.
That business of "mastering an instrument takes 10K hours" is really concerned with those youngsters in classical music who start learning an instrument at about age 5 and will have attained complete technical mastery by their mid-teens if they expect to win world-class competitions by their mid-twenties and an assurance of lucrative contracts thereafter. The work-load these musicians do is tougher than most of us can imagine, and continues right through their working life.
Musicians at that stratospheric level clearly are the exception, by definition, but it's quite feasible for a much larger number of older people to reach a professional standard (i.e. good enough for others to pay to hear them or take lessons from them) on the basis of 4-6K of the RIGHT sort of study and practice - say 20 hours per week for 4-6 years. The will to do it, application, and a good teacher are the most important factors.
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The continual search to improve.
Trevor, if it's the same book I read (This is Your Brain on Music), the author (a neuroscientist) extapolates that 10k hours to any age and basically any complex skill.
But I agree that many adults don't realize how many thousands of hours those child "prodigies" put in on their instruments to get as good as they are.
The other good news for us oldsters is that it doesn't take as many hours to learn a new instrument to a fairly high level of ability if you have "mastered" a different instrument in the same genre. At least that's been my experience. I'm by no means a brilliant tenor banjo or flute player yet, but I'm lightyears ahead on both compared to where I was just 4 years in on fiddle (back in my teens). And I don't play banjo and flute near as much as I should.
Bit like learning a third language--the first and second languages grease the chutes for subsequent tongues (so to speak).
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: The continual search to improve.
Fair enough tat, for the converted,all i do is state the obvious. For the likes of those who turn up at sessions, play out of tune, sans rhythm, still playing the same sets they were 5 yrs ago, these post are for you. Some people do , no doubt, rest on their laurels, however faded they might be.
To them it is acceptable to stay at their 'present' leval.
To be honest i think this relates to so mant complaints i read on this forum, like Micky Finn's post the other day.
Lazy's comment about the right sort of study bears a second look. After all practicing playing out of tune with bad rhythm will help you get better; at playing out of tune with bad rhythm!
This post wasnt inspired by newbies, but by people who should , perhaps, know better.
I think the objective is to be able to play without others, and still sound great. Just playing at sessions will allow them to hide behind the larger sound, relying on a backer to give the rhythm say.
Newbies are often inspired, they may not have so many 'chops' but they sure know they want them! and can be focused on getting them. Its people who have played to a poor standard for years that this is aimed at. those who dont practice to improve because they cant be bothered.
I agree from experiance about 2nd instruments being easier, but your point about 2nd or 3rd languages ! my girlfriend speaks 5 languages fluently and i struggle with one, my first language!
I have actually been thinking about this post and applying it to another aspect of my life. Sometimes it is not so clear how to start a project that is so large it can be intimidating, so i am going to apply my own medicine to; my 2nd language and next project. I too drift through life more than i feel i like...... So ....
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
"To comment on name' changes s post above, No one mentioned solitary! Bands practice."
True, Jig. i was thinking that as I was writing, not least because I am currently playing in a few 'bands', if we allow a fairly broad description of the word. Practising as a band offers, of course, its own benefits to the individual musician as well as to the band as a whole. But, while playing as part of a band may help develop, say, precision of timing and rhythmic drive, it does not usually offer much opportunity to focus on finer details, such as ornamentation and individual variation - features which are central to being a good traditional musician. There is not much use in going to a band practice every week without practising your own parts individually from one week to the next (...which, admittedly, I too often do).
Anyway, jig, I was assuming that since, for most of us, playing traditional music is primarily about playing informally and recreationally, rather than 'performing', that we were talking about solitary practice.
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The continual search to improve.
Fair enough, but the discussion was actually broader, encompassing self evaluation, and honest reflection. remember?
My point is that there are many facets to this game, ignoring one part in favor of another is not recommended.
You can end up on the wrong end of someones glare at a session if you dont practice at home, and all work and no play make jack a very dull boy! as they say. so i should get out more!
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
Expanding on my last, I suppose you might choose to practise together with a fellow musician rather than in isolation - not necessarily the same as a 'band practice', since you may not be rehearsing with a view to giving a performance together. But at what point does a joint practice session cross over into being a session? If you play tunes together with a friend, is that not a session? A smaller session, maybe, than you'll typically find in a pub, but otherwise, what's the difference?
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The continual search to improve.
To my mind that is a session. The difference to as i see it is whether you are playing in public..
Also by practicing i really mean taking an aspect of your playing, be it a tune, or 'rolls' or part of a tune or a particular picking or bowing technique etc and focusing on that aspect . Repeating it till it gets boring, then doing it some more. Im a great man for scales,arpeggios and patterns. I found that this kind of practice really paid off . So that upon returning to the group activity, sessions etc these little aspects of my playing all added up.
I prefer smaller sessions in some ways, two people, rhythm and melody. or say fiddle flute and rhythm.[backing].
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The continual search to improve.
Id just like to say that 2 days have gone by and my new resolution to spend 10m on my Spanish and next project has not taken off yet.
But i will keep at it. right, today. and i have those 20 min to catch up with too!
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by piobagusfidil