Ive recently been told that playing bodhran or drums in general will improve your rhythm for playing guiar and bouzouki. I can see how this works, but has anyone there benifited from this...
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Yes. Since guitar and other non-bowed string instruments are, in some ways, considered percussion (b/c you strike the string as opposed to bowing it), it should be very helpful. The Bohdran in particular, due to using the same hand. This should also teach you to 'listen' from a new perspective to music in a way that will develop your ear and your ability to understand, integrate, contrast, and/or repeat music.
However, I don't know if it will help you play Satriani or the Brandenburg Concertos.
-Marcus
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well i was taught to play the guitar,Spanish, as a drum,in a fashion! by an African man.This has helped me and is a definable aspect of my style.
My guitar playing then helped me learn to play the bodhran .
Your single string picking techniques will also benefit from Bodhran playing,the focus is simply a lot finer/smaller.
I would consider it excellent advice.In fact i would suggest the study of percussion to be an advantage for any musician, , not for the physical aspects but for the understanding of rhythm gained
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I'm willing to accept this as a use for a bodhran. Be careful though. Just imagine the scenario: you're happily thumping away and you get the ubiquitous stare from the tune players who's evening you are ruining and you say in your defence, "Oh, it's OK, I'm just learning how to play the guitar".
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
cg.f
My answer is no ,If your a bodhran player and you deciede to play a stringed backing instrument its a help......But playing the drum does nt help your rhythm .Rhythm is developed by getting better at listening and in my opinion listening to a tune getting a phonetic rhythm in your head is the key to good rhythm.A great musician said to me that there about 5 different rhythms to reels and its impossible to explain them all.This made alot of sense to me because I find it harder to pick up the rhythm of some reels in comparising to others.All this 4/4 stuff is for kids going to school so they can get an initial grasp of things but after that its time to move on.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Peace and love to all. It hasn't helped my guitar playing, but that is mainly due to the fact that I am finger picking, and singing along, for my dog's enjoyment.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well said Saint.
In truth I think the rhythms in ITM are too subtle for a bodhran (as I found out when I started playing the bouzouki). When you start really listening to the tunes you realise that there's a lot more going on than at first appears. Takes repeated listening to get to grips with it.
It's one of the biggest thing newcomers misunderstand about the music, and it probably takes a lifetime to master.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Getting the rhythm outside your head and into your body does tend to help, and playing a drum may help as you are not having to concentrate on melody or harmony as well as rhythm. Try playing along with recordings, as a practice method.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well suger foot, i would strongly disagree there! The bodhran is one of the few drums that is suited to trad. Its simply a question of mastery.For example, if i have spent 10,000 hours practicing my fiddle and you have spent 10 hours on your bodhran then you wont be able to pick up on what i do. Conversely if you have spent 20,000hours on your drum then i will struggle to pick up on your intricate rhythms.
My study of drumming has really helped my rhythm guitar, Perhaps in ways not considered here, for example; Flamenco guitar uses the body of the guitar to accentuate rhythms etc.Often people tap there feet to the tune, So i now find it fun to use my double bass drumming techniques to play rhythms with my feet while playing the guitar, creating endless possibilities in conjunction with the instrument itself!
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
When first starting in this music, I went to the Gaelic Roots festival, and took beginner bodhran lessons, using my drum with its celtic ink design (oh, if I only knew then what I know now). Myron Breckholm (not sure I spelled that right) was the teacher, and he gave me an outstanding introduction to the tune rhythms and structure, which was fundamental to my efforts to apply the guitar to the music. But I attribute that mostly to the teacher, not to the instrument. I can see how drum playing could open your eyes to some new ideas regarding rhythm, but don't see that it would have a huge impact on playing guitar or other instrument.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well Al,i would suggest this; Try it! But seriously, it doesnt have to be a 'huge' impact, any positive lesson to be gained is one step further,
|For example; when making a small movement, like picking a string, to a metronome,it is a lot easiesr to do than making a large movement to that same beat. once a large movement is accomplished, like a single or double stroke, the body will find more space within that beat to play with smaller movements.
like triplets on a single string.The mind becomes more aware of the space,in a sense time stretches out.
like i said, try it for a couple of years.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
We must be careful because its easy to start playing with words on this one
"My study of drumming has really helped my rhythm guitar"
Of course it will help, rhythm is developed by listening skills .So to stick to the point
"Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm"
My answer is no ,but if you think that playing a drum will help your listening skills do so, but drumming does nt develope rhythm Listening does .So its up to you its just my opinion.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
good thing you added "just my opinion."
When teaching children, I don't just have them listen. Helping them to feel the rhythm on their body, then having them use their body to feel and pat beats does help them learn to be more rhythmic. In my experience, as well as others'...
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I think the best way for a 'rhythm player' to better understand the rhythms in Irish trad (aside from listening, which is a given) is learning the tunes, either on the guitar itself or on another instrument, like the whistle.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
jig - I don't disagree that playing the drum is a good start, and the drum is suited to trad - you are forced to get the basic rhythms down anyway and that's no bad thing if you're plaing a guitar or zouk.
I just seem to hear more when I'm learning tunes to accompany on the bouzouki than I ever did when playing the drum, and I seem to be hearing the accents and rhythms more.
I like the drum though, and sometimes the best players are the ones that play something else too, so perhaps it should be the other way round.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
sugerfoot, that could be simply a matter of more exposure to the music through time and practice, as well as listening!
Also, on the 'baz' the distance from top to bottom is small, allowing more detail in rhythmic patterns.when compared to say, the guitar.
But saint, if it were just a matter of listening then even non players could be masters of rhythm!. It however, is not that simple,The mechanics of rhythm can only be accomplished by the practice of those said techniques. Sure, the specific rhythms of trad can only be understood through listening,but to actually repeat them can only be done through slow careful and focused practice.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
so if a person is an already a good rhythm guitar/bouzouki player, taking up the bodhran to improve your rhythm will not do it. its just down the listening and practice....am i right???
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
How to define a 'good' rhythm player? Can you play the tune to say; the congress reel? with some variations,triplets etc ? then play the tune within the chord pattern, quite a bit more complicated than simply playing the melody. Can you strum the triplets within the 4/4 basic rhythm?
If you think about it playing the rhythm on the bodhran will be quite a lot simpler than approaching the piece through rhythm, melody and chords.
What i am suggesting is isolating each part of the story; tune, rhythm, and chords. The tunes will each have a rhythm, integral in the piece and ornaments. each tune is different,so there for so will the rhythm.
So play the tunes rhythm on any instrument,once you know the tune,you will have the rhythm,plus the placing[general] of ornaments. once you have a bunch of these down you will have a much better understanding of the music in general.and some specific tunes.
Playing the piece as melody, and playing the piece as rhythm will no doubt complement your playing of the piece as chords.
It is not essential to learn the bodhran, though it will help your playing in many ways.
In fact in referance to tin tin above, good advice although it is; i would suggest turning it around, i cant count the number of melody players ive met over the decades with terrible rhythm! so melody players would do well to learn the tunes on the bodhran!
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I've said this so many hundreds of times but I do not despair.
THE RHYTHM IS IN THE TUNE, IT IS PART OF IT.
Some people here have it all backwards. Jig says, "I can't count the number of melody players I've met over the decades with terrible rhythm." This simply means they are terrible melody players. Surely no one can argue with that.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
It all depends on how good your internal timing is.
I know a few very tight guitarists and bouzouki player who,either double up on the bodhran or can play a drum kit well.
Practicing with a metronome r a drum machine as Steve Cooney has ,or playing with players with good timing will certainly tighten up your rhythm playing.
Playing with people with bad timing will have an adverse affect on your playing in the long run.
Knowledge of rhythm is a seperate issue(as in what you play and when you play it)
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Ah but they are not, they simply confuse the rhythm of the tune with ornaments. put a backer with them and they can sound great, but solo! oh dear.......The rhythm of a piece without ornaments, is clear,simple even. this to my mind is stage one.once played at the correct pace, comfortably, the ornaments can be added , WITHOUT losing the basic rhythm. The problem, as i see it is that they ornament left right and center, and in the process lose the rhythm.. After all a roll is 5 notes in a small space originally occupied by perhaps one,a dotted 1/4 note ]or1/4]
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Or a beginner tune player. Timing is of course one of the most important things, if not the most important thing to learn.
No matter how much I play the guitar and how much my rhythm improves on it I can't pick up a bodhran without all my rhythm going completely to s***. Playing one does not necessarily mean you can pick the other one up more easily. Playing a second instrument of any type will probably help your playing of the first. I think my guitar playing has improved due to learning the whistle. I have a better understanding of the tunes. On the other hand, as I usually play the guitar in a session it has probably impacted negatively on the amount of tunes I can remember on the whistle, although probably not on my technique.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
THE RHYTHM IS IN THE TUNE, IT IS PART OF IT.
ya I agree llig
people are talking about 4/4 sh*te Irish music predates all that sh*te.If I'm backing a melody player .
1.I have to deciede what type of player they are.
Are they the type of melody player that plays with a strong rhythm and does n't need a bodhran player to dictate the rhythm or is it a melody player that depends on the drum to keep them in line.
2. The type of tune and what backing is needed .
3. The melody players interpetation of what the correct rhythm fits the tune.
4. Is the melody player happy with what im doing yet.
Jig
" if it were just a matter of listening "
Listening is one of the golden rules and people tell people to listen but no one can tell someone how to listen ,again listening and rhythm are complicated matters ye should not try to simplify them.I could talk for hours on how to teach children rhythm but do you teach an adult the same way?
As People avoid the question again and again I ll try to answer it again and again.If your sole purpose is learning rhythm and thats the only reason for taking up the drum I'd say no for the reasons above.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
jig
you've lost me there I'm just giving my opinion ,not directing anything at you , maybe I disagree with some of your opinions imnot trying to offend you and your intitled to tell me where you think im wrong
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I go to home daycares and playdate groups, working with very young children, but more importantly, the adults that care for them. Yes, I teach them the same way. We use coffee can "drums" and work on steady beat. We count to 4, we march (counting 2). There is a film, "Mr. Holland's Opus" (which I really don't like, except for this example), where a rhythm-impaired student tries to play the bass drum. He can't keep a beat, so the teacher puts a helmet on him and hits the beat on his head, he learns steady beat. I don't hit anyone on the head, but a gentle physical "tap" on their body does help. I have one caregiver who couldn't clap a steady beat for months, she was successful last week!
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
my main point is that learning to drum can be of great advantage to timeingly challenged people! And through experience i have found it can be of advantage to even someone like me who's been playing rhythm guitar for 30 years. Oh and its fun.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Neither am i saint, neither am i ! i dont 'need' to play drums..... i enjoy it, after years of fiddly little shtuff its great to sit back and beat the sh*te out of some inanimate objects!. and it has helped with my playing in many ways, see my posts above.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
inanimate objects................... I have a charlie byrne and a brendan white ...........two inanimate objects .What stringed heap of sh*t do you play.....................joke
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I play some crappy cheap spanish guitar, a cheap european mandolin, a nice german fiddle, a pearl drumkit, Godin electric gtr, old 1940 tenor banjo, and the rest.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
well BB now you mention it, it was learning to play odd rythmes on drums that helped me understand them on GTR. Direct practical, hands on experience. I can try to explain sometime if you are interested, then you can play along with those wierd eastern european and Balkan tunes some folk are mad on...
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Speaking of rhythm.
I've been interested in Indian music for a long time and I just purchased a dvd of John McLaughlin(who I've been a fan of for many yrs)and V. Selvaganesh on the method that's used
for learning Indian rhythms.
The method can applied to any genre and is the best I've seen for obtaining a good rhythmic foundation to work from.
All the rhythms in Irish music can be broken down into the various phrases(or changed to suit the genre if you see fit)
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I was told a long time ago that the basic ITM was played to the drum (for dance) and the fiddle or whistle becomes the melodic version of the drum in the absence of the drum.
I have gotten a lot of flak over the years when I try to pass on the above, how ever, No rhythm.... No dance or song.
You may or may not need a drum to work out an illusive tune.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Teaching me would be a waste of time, Jig. I play to music, any music. I have ears. Theory, no use for drumming. You either have it or you don't. Fortunately I have it.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
The bodhran is a reletavely new instrument to irish music believe it or not.
It was originally used exclusively in the hunt for the wren,until maybe the 1920's
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I think drums are good practise but not as good as electric bass funky thumb slap and pop techniques to help along your guitar backing techniques. I found Bootsie Collins' book very helpful. Slim!
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
well bliss, i would have to disagree, In my experience, It can be impossible to catch a weird 10/8 rhythm unless you understand it.
Now i realise you are probably the best bodhran player in the world, but i bet you a tenner you could'nt catch a 10/8rhythm,, and if you could id be delighted to meet up for a session some time!
Oh and Im with you on this bliss, at least 1920 BC. I hold it as a self evident truth.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
No idea what a 10/8 rhythm is, but if you can play or whistle it, I can accompany you on bodhran. Just you start, at the end of the first part, I'll be there.
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I'll have €25 each way on that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Cork All Irelands and football,You dug deep there,,,,,,,,,,,,,Before Kerry this year we were the last county to win back to back football 89,90,I was just a boy.
Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Ive recently been told that playing bodhran or drums in general will improve your rhythm for playing guiar and bouzouki. I can see how this works, but has anyone there benifited from this...
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by mise
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Yes. Since guitar and other non-bowed string instruments are, in some ways, considered percussion (b/c you strike the string as opposed to bowing it), it should be very helpful. The Bohdran in particular, due to using the same hand. This should also teach you to 'listen' from a new perspective to music in a way that will develop your ear and your ability to understand, integrate, contrast, and/or repeat music.
However, I don't know if it will help you play Satriani or the Brandenburg Concertos.
-Marcus
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by 3marcus
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well i was taught to play the guitar,Spanish, as a drum,in a fashion! by an African man.This has helped me and is a definable aspect of my style.
My guitar playing then helped me learn to play the bodhran .
Your single string picking techniques will also benefit from Bodhran playing,the focus is simply a lot finer/smaller.
I would consider it excellent advice.In fact i would suggest the study of percussion to be an advantage for any musician, , not for the physical aspects but for the understanding of rhythm gained
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I'm willing to accept this as a use for a bodhran. Be careful though. Just imagine the scenario: you're happily thumping away and you get the ubiquitous stare from the tune players who's evening you are ruining and you say in your defence, "Oh, it's OK, I'm just learning how to play the guitar".
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Actually probably would help improve rhythm on any instrument since it forces one focus on that aspect of the musicality.
On the flip side, if one his hopelessly without rhythmic sense, nothing may help.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by zippydw
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
llig leachcim, i assure you this will not happen!!
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by mise
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
cg.f
My answer is no ,If your a bodhran player and you deciede to play a stringed backing instrument its a help......But playing the drum does nt help your rhythm .Rhythm is developed by getting better at listening and in my opinion listening to a tune getting a phonetic rhythm in your head is the key to good rhythm.A great musician said to me that there about 5 different rhythms to reels and its impossible to explain them all.This made alot of sense to me because I find it harder to pick up the rhythm of some reels in comparising to others.All this 4/4 stuff is for kids going to school so they can get an initial grasp of things but after that its time to move on.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Peace and love to all. It hasn't helped my guitar playing, but that is mainly due to the fact that I am finger picking, and singing along, for my dog's enjoyment.
OK, I am useless on the guitar.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well said Saint.
In truth I think the rhythms in ITM are too subtle for a bodhran (as I found out when I started playing the bouzouki). When you start really listening to the tunes you realise that there's a lot more going on than at first appears. Takes repeated listening to get to grips with it.
It's one of the biggest thing newcomers misunderstand about the music, and it probably takes a lifetime to master.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Getting the rhythm outside your head and into your body does tend to help, and playing a drum may help as you are not having to concentrate on melody or harmony as well as rhythm. Try playing along with recordings, as a practice method.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by wyogal
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well suger foot, i would strongly disagree there! The bodhran is one of the few drums that is suited to trad. Its simply a question of mastery.For example, if i have spent 10,000 hours practicing my fiddle and you have spent 10 hours on your bodhran then you wont be able to pick up on what i do. Conversely if you have spent 20,000hours on your drum then i will struggle to pick up on your intricate rhythms.
My study of drumming has really helped my rhythm guitar, Perhaps in ways not considered here, for example; Flamenco guitar uses the body of the guitar to accentuate rhythms etc.Often people tap there feet to the tune, So i now find it fun to use my double bass drumming techniques to play rhythms with my feet while playing the guitar, creating endless possibilities in conjunction with the instrument itself!
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
When first starting in this music, I went to the Gaelic Roots festival, and took beginner bodhran lessons, using my drum with its celtic ink design (oh, if I only knew then what I know now). Myron Breckholm (not sure I spelled that right) was the teacher, and he gave me an outstanding introduction to the tune rhythms and structure, which was fundamental to my efforts to apply the guitar to the music. But I attribute that mostly to the teacher, not to the instrument. I can see how drum playing could open your eyes to some new ideas regarding rhythm, but don't see that it would have a huge impact on playing guitar or other instrument.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well Al,i would suggest this; Try it! But seriously, it doesnt have to be a 'huge' impact, any positive lesson to be gained is one step further,
|For example; when making a small movement, like picking a string, to a metronome,it is a lot easiesr to do than making a large movement to that same beat. once a large movement is accomplished, like a single or double stroke, the body will find more space within that beat to play with smaller movements.
like triplets on a single string.The mind becomes more aware of the space,in a sense time stretches out.
like i said, try it for a couple of years.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
We must be careful because its easy to start playing with words on this one
"My study of drumming has really helped my rhythm guitar"
Of course it will help, rhythm is developed by listening skills .So to stick to the point
"Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm"
My answer is no ,but if you think that playing a drum will help your listening skills do so, but drumming does nt develope rhythm Listening does .So its up to you its just my opinion.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
good thing you added "just my opinion."
When teaching children, I don't just have them listen. Helping them to feel the rhythm on their body, then having them use their body to feel and pat beats does help them learn to be more rhythmic. In my experience, as well as others'...
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by wyogal
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I think the best way for a 'rhythm player' to better understand the rhythms in Irish trad (aside from listening, which is a given) is learning the tunes, either on the guitar itself or on another instrument, like the whistle.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by mcswiss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
jig - I don't disagree that playing the drum is a good start, and the drum is suited to trad - you are forced to get the basic rhythms down anyway and that's no bad thing if you're plaing a guitar or zouk.
I just seem to hear more when I'm learning tunes to accompany on the bouzouki than I ever did when playing the drum, and I seem to be hearing the accents and rhythms more.
I like the drum though, and sometimes the best players are the ones that play something else too, so perhaps it should be the other way round.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
In today's drama, the role of llig will be played by Tintin (someone has to tell 'em to learn the tunes). We now rejoin our show in progress......
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
sugerfoot, that could be simply a matter of more exposure to the music through time and practice, as well as listening!
Also, on the 'baz' the distance from top to bottom is small, allowing more detail in rhythmic patterns.when compared to say, the guitar.
But saint, if it were just a matter of listening then even non players could be masters of rhythm!. It however, is not that simple,The mechanics of rhythm can only be accomplished by the practice of those said techniques. Sure, the specific rhythms of trad can only be understood through listening,but to actually repeat them can only be done through slow careful and focused practice.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
so if a person is an already a good rhythm guitar/bouzouki player, taking up the bodhran to improve your rhythm will not do it. its just down the listening and practice....am i right???
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by mise
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
How to define a 'good' rhythm player? Can you play the tune to say; the congress reel? with some variations,triplets etc ? then play the tune within the chord pattern, quite a bit more complicated than simply playing the melody. Can you strum the triplets within the 4/4 basic rhythm?
If you think about it playing the rhythm on the bodhran will be quite a lot simpler than approaching the piece through rhythm, melody and chords.
What i am suggesting is isolating each part of the story; tune, rhythm, and chords. The tunes will each have a rhythm, integral in the piece and ornaments. each tune is different,so there for so will the rhythm.
So play the tunes rhythm on any instrument,once you know the tune,you will have the rhythm,plus the placing[general] of ornaments. once you have a bunch of these down you will have a much better understanding of the music in general.and some specific tunes.
Playing the piece as melody, and playing the piece as rhythm will no doubt complement your playing of the piece as chords.
It is not essential to learn the bodhran, though it will help your playing in many ways.
In fact in referance to tin tin above, good advice although it is; i would suggest turning it around, i cant count the number of melody players ive met over the decades with terrible rhythm! so melody players would do well to learn the tunes on the bodhran!
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I've said this so many hundreds of times but I do not despair.
THE RHYTHM IS IN THE TUNE, IT IS PART OF IT.
Some people here have it all backwards. Jig says, "I can't count the number of melody players I've met over the decades with terrible rhythm." This simply means they are terrible melody players. Surely no one can argue with that.
I refer everyone to my previous thread:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9423
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
It all depends on how good your internal timing is.
I know a few very tight guitarists and bouzouki player who,either double up on the bodhran or can play a drum kit well.
Practicing with a metronome r a drum machine as Steve Cooney has ,or playing with players with good timing will certainly tighten up your rhythm playing.
Playing with people with bad timing will have an adverse affect on your playing in the long run.
Knowledge of rhythm is a seperate issue(as in what you play and when you play it)
re Peter
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by P.browne
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Ah but they are not, they simply confuse the rhythm of the tune with ornaments. put a backer with them and they can sound great, but solo! oh dear.......The rhythm of a piece without ornaments, is clear,simple even. this to my mind is stage one.once played at the correct pace, comfortably, the ornaments can be added , WITHOUT losing the basic rhythm. The problem, as i see it is that they ornament left right and center, and in the process lose the rhythm.. After all a roll is 5 notes in a small space originally occupied by perhaps one,a dotted 1/4 note ]or1/4]
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
You're agreeing with me. If you can't play your rolls etc with good rhythm, you are a rubbish tune player
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Or a beginner tune player. Timing is of course one of the most important things, if not the most important thing to learn.
No matter how much I play the guitar and how much my rhythm improves on it I can't pick up a bodhran without all my rhythm going completely to s***. Playing one does not necessarily mean you can pick the other one up more easily. Playing a second instrument of any type will probably help your playing of the first. I think my guitar playing has improved due to learning the whistle. I have a better understanding of the tunes. On the other hand, as I usually play the guitar in a session it has probably impacted negatively on the amount of tunes I can remember on the whistle, although probably not on my technique.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
THE RHYTHM IS IN THE TUNE, IT IS PART OF IT.
ya I agree llig
people are talking about 4/4 sh*te Irish music predates all that sh*te.If I'm backing a melody player .
1.I have to deciede what type of player they are.
Are they the type of melody player that plays with a strong rhythm and does n't need a bodhran player to dictate the rhythm or is it a melody player that depends on the drum to keep them in line.
2. The type of tune and what backing is needed .
3. The melody players interpetation of what the correct rhythm fits the tune.
4. Is the melody player happy with what im doing yet.
Jig
" if it were just a matter of listening "
Listening is one of the golden rules and people tell people to listen but no one can tell someone how to listen ,again listening and rhythm are complicated matters ye should not try to simplify them.I could talk for hours on how to teach children rhythm but do you teach an adult the same way?
As People avoid the question again and again I ll try to answer it again and again.If your sole purpose is learning rhythm and thats the only reason for taking up the drum I'd say no for the reasons above.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
wyogal
How would you teach an adult rhythm? because if they have gone past this stage in thier cognitive developement it must be alot harder.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Is this the first discussion where llig says yes to the drum and I say no.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Oh, am i? ok fair enough, not the first time,
Saint, you play the guitar?
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
jig
you've lost me there I'm just giving my opinion ,not directing anything at you , maybe I disagree with some of your opinions imnot trying to offend you and your intitled to tell me where you think im wrong
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
My main point is learning to play a drum for the sole purpose of learning rhythm can be avoided.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I go to home daycares and playdate groups, working with very young children, but more importantly, the adults that care for them. Yes, I teach them the same way. We use coffee can "drums" and work on steady beat. We count to 4, we march (counting 2). There is a film, "Mr. Holland's Opus" (which I really don't like, except for this example), where a rhythm-impaired student tries to play the bass drum. He can't keep a beat, so the teacher puts a helmet on him and hits the beat on his head, he learns steady beat. I don't hit anyone on the head, but a gentle physical "tap" on their body does help. I have one caregiver who couldn't clap a steady beat for months, she was successful last week!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by wyogal
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
my main point is that learning to drum can be of great advantage to timeingly challenged people! And through experience i have found it can be of advantage to even someone like me who's been playing rhythm guitar for 30 years. Oh and its fun.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
p.s. it is more difficult to teach the adults, they think too much about it!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by wyogal
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Ok but I think cg.f isn't timeingly challenged judging from his previous posts and discussions so he does n't need to do this.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
at this point... whatever....
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by wyogal
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I'm worse for giving my opinion
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Neither am i saint, neither am i ! i dont 'need' to play drums..... i enjoy it, after years of fiddly little shtuff its great to sit back and beat the sh*te out of some inanimate objects!. and it has helped with my playing in many ways, see my posts above.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I can play lead guitar, but not rhythm. I don't understand all this timing 4/5 stuff.
But I can play a drum.
Speaking of which, poor JfiddlerH is in Manchester and slumming it with John Joe.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
inanimate objects................... I have a charlie byrne and a brendan white ...........two inanimate objects .What stringed heap of sh*t do you play.....................joke
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I play some crappy cheap spanish guitar, a cheap european mandolin, a nice german fiddle, a pearl drumkit, Godin electric gtr, old 1940 tenor banjo, and the rest.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
but can ya play a jig........................
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
well BB now you mention it, it was learning to play odd rythmes on drums that helped me understand them on GTR. Direct practical, hands on experience. I can try to explain sometime if you are interested, then you can play along with those wierd eastern european and Balkan tunes some folk are mad on...
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I can play plenty jigs, but i play the fool best
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Yes, it does
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by t byrne
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
ha, that was pretty damn succinct.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Speaking of rhythm.
I've been interested in Indian music for a long time and I just purchased a dvd of John McLaughlin(who I've been a fan of for many yrs)and V. Selvaganesh on the method that's used
for learning Indian rhythms.
The method can applied to any genre and is the best I've seen for obtaining a good rhythmic foundation to work from.
All the rhythms in Irish music can be broken down into the various phrases(or changed to suit the genre if you see fit)
1 beat =TA
2=TAKA
3=TAKIDA
4= TAKADIMI
5=TADIKENATHUM
and what ever combinations you can come up with,7 beats could be TAKADIMI TAKIDA TAKIDIMI TAKITA etc.
It also goes into the subdivision of the beats.
You learn to used your hands and fingers to count beats bars etc.
Well worth a buy,
carry on,
P
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by P.browne
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
The method i learnt, is to break the beat down into numbers, so a 7/8 rhythm could be ; un do tre, un do, un do.
Or; un do, un do, un do tre. etc.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Using a "T" at the beginning of each beat cycle gives a good emphasis,And it's easy to verbalise,which is the idea.
Man,well, on those trays,you might say,
there's a bit of a towering fault about that don't you sink....?
P
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by P.browne
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I was told a long time ago that the basic ITM was played to the drum (for dance) and the fiddle or whistle becomes the melodic version of the drum in the absence of the drum.
I have gotten a lot of flak over the years when I try to pass on the above, how ever, No rhythm.... No dance or song.
You may or may not need a drum to work out an illusive tune.
Jim
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by seammc
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Oh,and it's entitled "The gateway to rhythm"
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by P.browne
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Teaching me would be a waste of time, Jig. I play to music, any music. I have ears. Theory, no use for drumming. You either have it or you don't. Fortunately I have it.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
The bodhran is a reletavely new instrument to irish music believe it or not.
It was originally used exclusively in the hunt for the wren,until maybe the 1920's
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by P.browne
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Skiddledobobadodedododum
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
That's 1920 BC.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Are you that old bliss
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I think drums are good practise but not as good as electric bass funky thumb slap and pop techniques to help along your guitar backing techniques. I found Bootsie Collins' book very helpful. Slim!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Saint, I can remember Cork winning All Irelands at football.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
well bliss, i would have to disagree, In my experience, It can be impossible to catch a weird 10/8 rhythm unless you understand it.
Now i realise you are probably the best bodhran player in the world, but i bet you a tenner you could'nt catch a 10/8rhythm,, and if you could id be delighted to meet up for a session some time!
Oh and Im with you on this bliss, at least 1920 BC. I hold it as a self evident truth.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
No idea what a 10/8 rhythm is, but if you can play or whistle it, I can accompany you on bodhran. Just you start, at the end of the first part, I'll be there.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Good on ya BB, confidence is king. Now theres a tenner on this i hope you realize
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I can't give you more than 50/1 odds.
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
well we could downsize the bet to a pint or 2 of stout?
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
That's 50/1 in your favour. £10 wins you £500.
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
I'll have €25 each way on that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Cork All Irelands and football,You dug deep there,,,,,,,,,,,,,Before Kerry this year we were the last county to win back to back football 89,90,I was just a boy.
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by Saint
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well Bliss, you really are confidant huh, you gonna be in Ennis nov?
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Where is Ennis?
I went there in 1977 to the Fleadh. I thought ITM was banned in the town or something, the amount of crying the landlords did.
I have never been to a fleadh since.
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
Well i fancy poppin in for a few tunes, BB, they'll never recognise you 30yrs on..... or will they?
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Does playing a drum improve your guitar rhythm?
So i think i can safely say yes. to your question.
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by piobagusfidil