I've noticed a few posts here lately by two eejits who hang around my local Irish Traditional Music scene. You know the type, wannabe trad musicians, but with no grounding in the music, damn little in the way of respect for it and very little discernible aptitude for it. Neither of these gents plays intsruments which have any particular association for (or, in my view, place in - but we'll perhaps come to that later) Irish Traditional Music.
However, by virtue of the fact that both have hovered on the fringes of Irish Traditional Music sessions for a couple of years now, each feels himself qualified to give their ill-formed opinions on this discussion board about how sessions ought to be.
And both are damning of "purists". Now this vexes me. Being something of an Irish Traditional Music aficionado - I rarely listen to any other form of music, I don't know how to play/have never been interested in playing any other form of music - it irritates me that such Johhny-Come-Latelies can coat-tail some of the best sessions in these parts, and still revile the "purists" such as myself with whom they play and from whom they've picked up what little bit of know-how that they have. (Not from me, by the way, because I refuse to give an inch to such wander-ins whose words and deeds indicate that their attachment to an ceol is very shallow.)
I'm interested in how other members of the session community deal with such irritants. I'm finding that my session pleasure is being severely limited by the prospect of going along to some sessions that I used to frequent for fear of having my night ruined by these guys or people like them. I have thought of starting a local session, posting it here and putting a warning in the introductory post to the effect that John Doe and Joe Bloggs are not welcome ... one session-leader from another part of town laughed when I suggested this and said that such a warning would, in itself, be guaranteed to lure him across to play.
Perhaps I'm getting increasingly crabbit as I approach my dotage, but I really can't tolerate people messing about with my musical heritage and spouting ill-informedly about same, when they know sweet FA whereof they speak.
You can:
1. Start yr own session- by invitation only.
2. Start to play a new instrument- one that challenges you more than the yoyos irritate you. Your concentration will be on the tune rather than on them.
3. Get to know them better so that you can educate them into a little respect for the tradition.
4. Relax. You don't know everything either. Better to be inclusive than exclusive.
Purism certainly has it's place. The fact that there are those who will not dilute their music to the lowest common denominator or go with the latest fad is a marvellous resource for the generations to come.
Purism is the well into which we can all dip and do our own thing, but it is essential that the well remain unpolluted so that the music can live on in it's essentially bloody marvellous form.
While I wouldn't necessarily go to the extremes that Mickey suggests, and indeed would encourage newcomers to the music I can appreciate the wish to remain virginal musically speaking
Mr mcknowall, my name is Micky Finn (or Michael, as my ma prefers to call me; Miko as some of my mates call me and Michael Peter Finn as I'm known when I'm up before the RM - but that's another story for another time and another place).
Just wishing out loud that the diluters and polluters of an ceol rince would keep their dabbling to themselves OR to some other sessions where such attentions are welcome. I've seen a number of once-decent sessions go down the tubes lately with the unwanted presence of untutored, uninformed and quite frankly unnecessary players.
And, I've seen and heard such players start to give lectures to others - session regulars - on all sorts of topics on which their grasp was rudimentary if it existed at all.
I wouldn't claim to know everything - far be it from anyone to make such a claim - however, i would claim to have derived a fair bit of knowledge about the music through having been immersed in it from an early age and having pursued (at, as Flann O'Brien would have it, times when it was neither profitable nor popular) for a fair few years). Hence I wince when I witness the music becoming a mere commodity which various yahoos can decide, for reasons unknown to me, to subscribe. And then to have the temerity to begin to write things on discussion boards such as this which are designed to indicate that they have an opinion which is in any way worth listening to.
As for starting my own session, cocus, lately I've begun to do just that. One-nighters, here and there, invitation only - often after hours in sympathetic establishments. More and more of the people I play with are doing likewise.
Funny thing this "purist" label. We all probably know some old guys who , because of the lack of exposure to sources of change, play a style that is pure, or unaffected. These are the very people who would never refer to themselves as purists.
It's not a label you can apply to yourself, because if you are pure by virtue of the fact that you have never been exposed, well how the hell can you be a judge of it?
Purist me a*se, introverted more like, Get a grip Mickey, you're doing your own head in.
Well, not an easy situation micky. But what exactly are these fella's doing? are they.... backing, or playin the tunes? i would guess you have some annoying backers?
I began to apply the label "purist" to myself only because it's something which has been applied to me by others - presumably as a pejorative term. (In much the same way as I'm happy to refer to myself as a "Paddy" when among fellow Irishmen, but baulk at it when used by some gather-up from England.) There are, as Backer's note has reminded me, sessions which are far more purist than those in which I nromally play and, indeed, players who are far more purist than I. (Although not from the South West, I have a real love of tunes from that part of the world, not just the polkas and slides, but those lovely, deceptively simplistic reels that O'Keeffe and his uncle before him are associated with.) One of my best mates is from Mayo but plays in a Donegal style and will talk at great length about how Glackin is the dog's tidgers. Personally Galckin doesn't do it for me in the way that, for example, Cranitch does. But I think we'd all agree that Glackin and Cranitch play the music beautifully and reasonably purely and their music doesn;t suffer a jot from not being polluted by absurd musical influences from outside the mainstream ...
Horses for courses, I suppose. I'd prefer to listen to scratchy oul' recordings of Dennis Murphy and Julia Clifford any day rather than to the likes of more supposedly "interesting" musicians such as Afro Celt Sound System or Kila ... suppose that makes a boring oul' purist rather than a musical visionary. I'm happy enough with that.
Jig ... you got in before me there. Haven't quite for the knack yet of sticking these notes up so that they follow straight on the previous one I was reading. All gets a bit confusing, doesn't it?
One fancies himself as a backer, the other attempts the tunes - but plays an instrument which can be used to play chords as well and annoyingly does so when he doesn't know the tune in question.
But they're just the latest tips of the iceberg. In forty years of playing music, I've seen people like these pair pop up all over the place. Thankfully, often as a result of some fairly robust advice but more often because they get bored with their latest musical fad and pursue other avenues, they tend not to stick around. At one session house I used to play at in the 80s, myself and the regular crew decided we would drift off gradually over the course of a few weeks till only this eejit of a guitar player and his mate on some sort of African drum yoke were left to turn up. We'd let the landlord in on the scam and we had a few spies in the camp anyway. Your men turned up dutifully for two weeks before they got the message. What larks, Pip, what larks! But I got fed up with all sort of shenanigans. These days I'd be more inclined to be confrontational. Or, depending on my mood, to do what I've been doing lately - ie giving open sessions a miss in favour of the invite only affair.
well micky, confrontation would be my personal choice. after all, if we all get driven off from the open sessions .... then people might get the mistaken idea that sessions are about african drum s and guitar players!
Other than that how about stopping abruptly when they join in? this can get the message accross.
Open sessions though..... sarcasm?
Purist though, I am not a purist. Much as i love and respect the pure drop, i also enjoy the likes of kila.Though its really the brothers playing i love not all the additional 'city' noises.
In fact perhaps it really is a city/country thing? City folk and the younger generation are used to all this excess stuff, music sounds empty without samples and car horns.etc.
I have to respond to this. May the trad gods strike me down with bows and tippers for saying this but...
I find the term purist really disconcerting. I love the afro-celts, lunasa, kila, grada and others who like those before them, have interpreted the music and have created another step in the evolutionary nature that music is. I also have a great respect for the old school trad and the interpretations they themselves have etched into the annals of trad.
Furthermore, from a personal perspective as a musician who has learnt from the 'purists' in Ireland but who has grown up and studied other music forms here in Australia, I find it hypocritical to negate those other influences in my playing. Sure, I wouldn't go and bugger up a 'purist' session (if there is such a thing in Queensland) but I'm not going to pretend to be something that I'm not when I record or play with the Shakes - and thats the wonderful part of musical evolution. Putting a part of yourself to the music.
I know I've probably gone a bit off track here; my apologies. My advise Mickey is if you're not happy - say something/educate and share.
And while I'm here, what's with the (to use an antipodean phrase) 'p*ss and whinge' threads? I used to enjoy logging on in my breaks to read some enlightening discussions. I must admit it sounds like thesession.org has sucumbed to blackgoogle.com - spread the love!
“Lack of exposure” to outside influences is not the only reason for not messing about with the music or for playing in an old style. Is it really necessary to incorporate everything we hear into our playing like an unthinking sponge? It seems that a number of people who play Irish music are rather lacking in musical taste and discernment (as evidenced by several recent CDs and by many sessions.)
I have quite broad musical interests but I don’t see why I should radically depart from my family’s style of playing. Does this make me a backward-looking fuddy-duddy? Listen to Norwegian fiddlers, they have a marvellously archaic way of playing and nobody looks down their noses at them for playing in the old style.
If you listen to recordings from the 1920s and 30s or of older players recorded in the 70s and 80s, their music is far from boring. In many cultures the traditional way of playing is respected, but some players of Irish music suffer from an inferiority complex, thinking that the music must be supplemented in some way to make it good!, or else sanitized in some way, often removing discordant elements and rhythmic complexity, (as evidenced by the bland fiddle music churned out by some classicalizers!) Innovation is of course part of the tradition (John Doherty and Neillie Boyle, for instance, played in distinctively individual styles), but any innovation that is worth listening to must come from a deep understanding of the musical tradition. And the ‘anti-purists’ usually have little or no understanding of, and very little respect for, the musical tradition.
(There is a strange but persistent view that regional styles themselves exist because of insular attitudes and a lack of broader exposure to music. See my post at the end of this discussion for instance): http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14690
I can't help but notice that during your reference to Flann O'Brien, you closed a paranthesis that you never opened. This is a ghastly misuse of the English language. Now, as an advocate of correct and proper use of language, I am horrified at this oversight on your behalf. Please, do not use so flippently the language that I know and love everything about. Quite frankly, you have deeply offended me. You also started a sentence with the word 'and', which I won't even dignify with a retort. You disgust me and you should think more carefully before you join in on others who wish to express their views using the English language.
It's a fair cop. I'm guilty of using the term "purist" in a recent post.
I used it, perhaps mistakenly, to refer to the kind of anorak who is fond of telling one exactly how to play the music, without being able to play too well (or at all) himself, or for that matter, having any more knowledge on the subject of ITM than onesself.
I hope that clarifies my position on my use of the term.
It appears to me that Micky Finn is someone who has been steadily playing and listening to "traditional Irish music" (see Homepage) over the years, and is now boiling over with frustration at seeing frivolous newcomers debase the music he loves. The language he has used in expressing this may be controversial, but surely he has come to the right place for support?
There will always be those who want to dabble in a musical genre,and mix it with whatever other style takes their fancy. They are entitled to do this in the privacy of their own home, or with like-minded individuals. If they have the arrogance to attempt to impose their lowest-common-denominator ideas on their hosts, they should be taken in hand for their own good and the good of the established style they wish to meddle with.
I have little patience myself with these smug opportunists, and can fully understand how they might anger an otherwise temperate person.
I have noted previously how new posters to this site can be misunderstood; especially if they have been nursing an issue which they need to deal with.
Micky Finn has given us some background on himself, and identified a genuine grievance. I hope we will help him.
If what you are suggesting is that “You know more” and therefore the rest should shut up and listen, well I’m sorry, I maintain my stance.
If on the other hand you are suggesting that your session is being “hijacked” by a few mumbo jumbo music lovers, that’s different and I would have thought the options on solving it are obvious.
Enigma, I think Mr. Finn has made that distinction clear, and your kneejerk attack on him says little about his level of tolerance and more about yours.
I suspect that most folks here are sympathetic with your frustrations, even if a little taken aback at the strength of your expression of them here. The importance that newcommers tread softly and respect the existing practice of an open session has often been discussed here as well.
My personal feeling is that perhaps more traditional playing is appropriate to sessions, while the kind of innovations you characterize are more appropriate to performing (or a private house, as has been suggested). Of course, I pay good money to hear traditional playing more oftern than not.
It does seem like one of the interesting things about open sessions is the tension between the comfort of long association, and the interest of unexpected guests (assuming they are intelligent and considerate enough to observe the basic rules of session ettiquette).
Anyone who shows up to a session and doesn't know the tunes should be told to sit tight and listen. Anyone who shows up with a ******ing djembe or something should be shown the door. God's mercy on these fools, for I will have none.
Way to throw one's self to the wolves Mickey!.... Brave man ye are.. I do understand what you mean...We have some lurkers aswell and I'm sure most good sessions do.
I liked the idea Cocus..of trying to play on a different instrument..I'm sure that would keep anyones mind busy..
Who is Mickey Finn to call people "wannabe trad musicians" or say that their opinions are "ill formed"? Not to mention "Those who scorn "purism"... Are we supposed to only listen to The Bothy Band and Boys of The Lough, and under no circumstances any new influence like Lunasa or Solas?
I'm surprised all these people can come to Mick's defense when they:
a. don't know who these people are, and only what his opinion of them is.
One of the reasons it's so hard to learn about traditional music is the scorn that the trad players show the newbies to the style (speaking from my experience as well as what I have read on this site). Yes, it's important to watch and learn from those that know. And yes, if you are holding a trad session, one should be respectful of the protocol. But, it's very discouraging to hear what an established (so I'm assuming) trad player has to say about those that want to experience the fun of a session. If folks are showing up at your session and are not following protocol, TELL THEM! No need to be nasty.
It's already intimidating enough without having to be worried about what the "expert" thinks.
(and i really don't want to hear about my use of the english language in this post, so much blah, blah, blah.)
Wyogal, your attitude reflects how I was brought into the tradition--showing a generosity of spirit, helping others learn the music and the customs, being patient.
It's hard to say, given what he's posted so far, whether Mr. Finn has exhausted those traits, or simply never bothered with them.
I'm lucky to have a generous and kind teacher, a former violin student that has returned. She has started a session here, and I am grateful to be able to go and learn, and have things explained in a kind way. I had enough of egos when playing in symphonies, and was shocked when the "friendly" atmosphere of the old-time players was as back-stabbing as the divas in the "classical" realm that I was playing with.
That said, I have enjoyed learning from others on this site. I have learned much!
In my experience it's very rare, but occasionally someone comes to the music as a total newbie with their ego all over their sleeve. And no matter how nice and helpful you are with them, they press on and make a nuisance of themselves.
Come on tat, hes been at this game for 40yrs,id say its a fair enough assumption he's been there and done that re rewbies. But its not newbies as such hes on about , is it? But about some folk who are cramping his style , perhaps jazzing the tunes up?
Its not about egos,but respect for the established style of the session, After all, if i joined your session and started pushing boundries, you'd rather stayed in place you too might have something to say....
But i agree its hard to be clear about what exactly they are doing. Though, i gather they are at this session too, so might we hear from them? or have we?......
The honest thing to do is to declare yourself a closed shop, by invitation only, and not get involved in underhanded soul destroying shenanigans. At least the people involved will know where they stand with you. ... but don't pretend, even for a second, that you are open, because you are not ... and that is alright too. No need to shift the blame onto others who do not match yer expectations. These are your values and your boundaries. I don't think thesession.org is the right place to be being critical of individuals you see regularly at your own session. You need to tell the people involved face to face, and not be critical of people who voluntarily contribute to the auld yellaboard. Why shouldn't they join and contribute to this forum? That is just plain underhand and not very nice ... and I say that from a neutral position because I know fer fact I am NOT one of the two you are complaining about.
Mr Finn told us what he likes, South West simple no frills tunes.
He does not want the likes of Paddy Glackin at his session, and doubtless Gerry O'Connor and Mike McGoldrick are ruled out as well, for their innovation.
jig, you've apparently mistaken me for someone who's arguing against Mr. Finn.
As I said above, it's possible he's exhausted his generosity toward these two. They are relative newbies to the music--he says they've only been at it a few years. Yet that's long enough to erode even a patient person's generosity if it's taken for granted, or worse, advante of.
I'm surprised at how many people have misread Micky Finn's post. It didn't strike me as a rip on innovators, newbies, or people who like to have "fun" at their sessions. The man is angry at pontificating fringe musicians who casually and recklessly muck up good sessions.
I am a comically average session musician - but I make a sincere effort to be a real student of the music. I like to have fun too, but I also try and respect how much time and effort people have put into their tunes. As Llig has mentioned many times, this is a narrowly defined genre of music. I for one respect Micky's right to defend it against those that would seek to compromise it with a frivolous attitude.
Once again, I must respond to neddie. I feel dissapointed that you have assumed that those who have outside influences incorporate all like an 'unthinking musical sponge'? Man that is harsh. Give us some credit for some discernment.
I fully agree and support your playing in your family heritage. As I said earlier I appreciate and support the old school. It's great. However, it is tremendously difficult to do this in Australia, particularly when the homogenisation of regional styles is rife and if your own personal family heritage is not Irish to start with.
Furthermore, I think your examples of innovation in trad were wonderful. That's what I was talking about. But please, give some credit to those who actually do listen and break down all the elements intently in order to learn; those who have come from a classical background but who have overcome this *apparent* handicap to play 'authentically' and who love the discordancy and the rhythmic complexity of which you talk.
Tat, there are allways two sides to every argument. I like to keep an open mind so may well be found on both sides of a discussion!
I can relate to mr finns point of view in many ways, many of us ,im sure also can, however its also good to see it from another perspective.
How can anyone relate to Mr Finn's argument. "Sessions are for people I like". That would rule say Martin Hayes out of many sessions, and Davy Spillane, and Paddy Maloney, Donal Lunny and certainly Andy Irvine, not to mention countless others.
Certainly you can hold those views, but you are not going to enjoy sessions. Get another hobby, like train spotting.
I can sympathize with what Micky was saying, and after seeing his expression develop over the course of the thread it becomes clear that he's frustrated over something I have often been frustrated over as well. Most of my experience has been at one particular pub here in SF and over the last 20 years I have seen exactly the sorts of individuals Micky describes coming through the door.
One type was the novice musicians who wanted to join in but weren’t quite ready to play at a level that was anywhere near where the session was. These are the most difficult to deal with because you don’t want to discourage anyone. I’m still not sure about exactly what to do, and I try to be as tolerant and helpful as possible. The bottom line seems to be to include them as long as they don’t expect the session to start catering to them. If they’re there for the right reason they’ll be happy to soak up as much as they can and not interfere by pushing their expectations on the rest of us. We’ve been very lucky about this in recent years and many of these people have become good musicians and welcomed participants.
The other type is easier to deal with. These are the ones who clearly are there to attempt to change the session. These people are the ones who will accuse us of being “purists” for not allowing them to alter the session to what they think it should be. Luckily most have only offered a limited exposure to what they were all about, but it was always easy to see how what they were all about had nothing to do with the session we were having.
My way of dealing with these people was with polite confrontation. I would point out as tactfully as possible that the people who started this session didn't have jazz flute, djembe, etc., etc., in mind and that they were interrupting the flow of the session. This rarely got a polite response in return, but the message got across nonetheless.
Currently there’s a session in the city where this sort of thing was exactly what the originators had in mind and I can recommend it to the person. But before it was there all I could do was suggest they start their own session somewhere else.
I remember when I was in Galway in 1990 there was a Sunday afternoon session at a pub (that has changed hands many times since) where the bongos, shakers, saxophones, jazz flutes etc., where all gathered. That’s where I first met Sean Tyrell who showed up with a small amp and asked me to scoot over a bit so he could plug it in. I had a blast – it was an anything-goes sort of affair – more of an Irish jam-session. The whole pub filled with people who were all there to enjoy the unusual session that it was – great buzz. It almost seemed like it was a release valve for the other sessions where none of that would have been appreciated. But that sort of thing had a home -- a place where it thrived. I think every town that has a traditional session should also have one of these so the shackers and bongo-heads can have their fun with the music too.
Micky Finn argued against those who are against modern musicians who play in the old style, i.e., those who ‘scorn’ the ‘purists’. I agree with him on the whole (even in finding Paddy Glackin quite uninteresting). I like accompaniment, and have been jamming with the same guitarist for nearly 15 years. I myself like Moving Hearts (with the magnificent Donal Lunny, Davy Spillane, & Declan Masterson). I liked the Scottish folk-rock band Wolfstone when I first heard them in concert in the early 90s. I like Hedningarna the Swedish-folk-Goth-rock innovators. I am just agreeing with Micky Finn that anti-purists ought to leave us traditionalists alone. (Do Baroque players get this kind of hassle from the Late-Classical bunch!?)
(By the way, as much fun as pub sessions can be, I don’t think that they are the obviously the best forum for traditional music!)
I can sympathize with Finn's position because, though I do not have extensive session experience, I can understand (1) that there are people who have devoted their lives to preserving ITM and ITM styles, and (2) that there are plenty of pretenders in the world who seem, almost desperately, to want others to think they have devoted their lives to some sort of tradition, but in actuality have never been devoted to anything. Of course, I do not actyally know whether the people Finn is talking about fall into the latter category; but I can sympathize because if they do, then his frustration seems patently understandable. To understand it, in other words, all one needs is to have been sincerely devoted to something and to have been confronted by those who are not but pretend to be. This is just when any of us needs to vent! And as far as I can tell, that is all he is doing.
Reels are probably Scottish in origin, Hornpipes English. Mazurkas, Polkas, Strathspeys, Slides, Barndances, Waltzes come from all over the place. So where exactly does the purity come from? Is it a style, or a collection of styles? When exactly did the bell ring to establish the beginning of the great age of purity?
Where did the instruments come from? The pipes, the fiddles the flutes...........all universal, there are pipes in every part of the world, always have been -since man started to get bored of the long nights.
I wonder if those aforementioned "purism" scorners who post here (heaven forbid that they should post here on this auld yellaboard) know it is they who are being complained about. it makes sense to talk to them and tell them face to face. Much kinder to them and yourself in the long run to have your beef out in the open with them, between you and them.
I was having a few tunes and a few drinks last night with a couple of long-time friends last night and I mentioned that I'd done a message here about this interloper problem which we've been discussing between ourselves for a while.
One of my friends damn near blew a fuse. "You stupid oul' goat! Aren't you only after leaving yourself open to every gombeen and bucketmouth to lay into you!" And next thing he's on the internet, asking me to show him what I said and what the reaction was. "There you go," he says. "Half the flamin' world making little of you. Bad enough some hooer down the pub taking the hand out of you, but writing stuff on the internet's an invitation to people to twist you."
So, red-faced, I had to concede that it's not perhaps the wisest thing in the world to give out your thoughts here. Especially since, unlike some of the people who write here, I'm only a tuppence-halfpenny player and a not very learned critic of the music. I just play the damn thing, have done for more years than I can remember and the music's been a good friend from time to time and a cruel mistress at others. But I'm not a scholar of the music, I can't read a note of it. Just picked up the odd tune here and there and some of them probably not the very best of tunes either. Maybe buckoes like me ought to do what we're here to do, to play the tunes and to keep our mouths shut.
And from this point on, that's likely what I'll do. But there are one or two points I ought to just air before I fade into the background again.
Firstly, some of you guys are awful twisters. You'd misquote a man to try to hang him on his own words, even if he didn't say them.
I'll give you an example.
I wrote the following. "One of my best mates is from Mayo but plays in a Donegal style and will talk at great length about how Glackin is the dog's tidgers. Personally Galckin doesn't do it for me in the way that, for example, Cranitch does. But I think we'd all agree that Glackin and Cranitch play the music beautifully and reasonably purely and their music doesn;t suffer a jot from not being polluted by absurd musical influences from outside the mainstream ..."
And then suddenly the following appears. "He does not want the likes of Paddy Glackin at his session, and doubtless Gerry O'Connor and Mike McGoldrick are ruled out as well, for their innovation."
Now ... that's completely not what I said above. In fact, I only quoted what I did above, because I have said the same to Paddy Glackin's face. In Dublin, more years ago than I care to remember, I had a few tunes one night in a pub where Paddy happened to wandered into and after he led off a few sets, he saw me struggle to get into one of the tunes and sit it out. I'd been going great guns up till then and we had a chat about how, when certain people play in certain styles, others find it very hard to get the rhythm, etc. So I felt I had to confess that I found the Donegal style jarred with me and we had a very amiable and enlightening (for me, at any rate!) discussion about speed, swing, attack and accent. And how it's important in music, if you want to develop yourself, to know what you want to play like and then dedicate yourself to achieving that personal style and applying it to your music.
However, I wished to God you hadn't mentioned the other two names, sir!
As for Mike McGoldrick, I remember the buzz around him when he was coming on in Manchester, where I used to spend a bit of time when I was in a travelling job. And I always kept an ear out for him. I got to know some of the musicians up that neck of the woods and they were full of priase for him. I'll never forget hearing him on the radio playing a pipe solo - two reels, one of which was The Earl's Chair - at The William Kennedy Festival one night and it was a real spine-tingling moment. Flute, whistle, pipes, banjo, etc. Some player! But, Mike takes his music off in all sorts of directions and I'm not sure I'm very keen on every avenue he explores.
But now, if people read this place as shallowly as some of the people here already have read what I've said, there'll be one or two people who'll be saying, "Finn ought to watch his manners, bad-mouthing Mike McGoldrick".
And as for Gerry O'Connor. While I've never had a tune with him, I have met his dad in Garrykennedy and a nicer, more unassuming man you couldn't hope to meet. And full of pride in his boy!
Now, I would have no problem with any of those lads coming into some place I was playing and joining in. They might find the pace and the repertoire a bit boring, but I know that they'd just fit in with the music fine. Because their grounding is thorough; they grew up with the music and they knwo what they're doing and what they're talking about.
Just remember the point of my original post. It was to bemoan how various newcomers to the traditional Irish music scene in and around where I live, have decided to blast their way in and, without any grounding, started spouting in a way which has upset those who've kept the flame lit for many years. And then, I've noticed (or had it drawn to my attention!), repeated the self-same attitude right here...
As for talking to these particular individuals who've been so out of line. I've had several conversations with each to point out the errors of their ways, and indeed, witnessed one of them getting an almighty roasting one night in a pub. But it's water off a duck's back. Back they come, like shooting ducks in one of them air rifle stalls in Warrenpoint that my da used to haul us off to when we were young.
Anyway! As I said, maybe I'm just a crabbit oul man and getting crabbiter as the years advance. Maybe us oul fellas ought to bow out and leave the music alone. Maybe we only get in the way, remembering how the music used to be played and feeling upset when some musical ne'er-do-well, with no feeling or sensitivity feels that he can claim the music for himself without having earned the music for himself. (Not, mind you, that I would class vague strumming as music in any event. Or full-throttle strangulation of the tunes as music either.)
And hence I'll take my friend's very sensible and very wise advice and leave off writing on the internet for now. I wish I'd never started this crack, but what's done is done.
Wll Mick,I for one welcome you here and hope you can see your way round to writing on the internet some more. It would be a poor world if we cant offer a bit of respect to a fella like yourself.
Ignore cheap and glib comments, they say more about the writer than yourself.
You raise valid points and sparked an interesting debate, I feel its healthy for a man to speak his mind.
You tell em!
Micky, I'll be sorry if you don't return here occasionally. I've very much appreciated you honesty and lack of lack of selfimportance. We need more of ther likes of yous to counter all the upstart smartarses.
You havn't said one single word so far that I havn't wholeheartedly agreed with. And I'm ashamed of some the attitudes of some of the company I inadvertantly keep here.
I think, Micky, you have one very good friend who is not shy of giving you some very good advice, and you have worn that advice very honestly. No need to be red faced. Good on you. I really like your attitude to The Music. I think there may well be quite a few on here who play nothing else and share your views. You are most welcome in my little bit of cyberspace. I hope I was not tooooo unkind. Please continue to post your interesting stuff here. Welcome!
I hope I don't missquote micky finn ,But these
newcomers find it hard to learn about sessions .If you didn't grow up with the music how do you find out what these unwritten rules/manners are ,Ive seen it on lots of occassions when musicians get upset because of newcomers yet no one explains the problem they just create an atmosphere . Its great when a seasoned musician explains the entry mistakes people make. This is the only way to stomp it out.
Absolutely right, Eddie. How many sessions have we seen at which the newcomer is viewed with suspicion/treated as a pariah before they've been given half a chance! It's a common moan but it isn't without some substance.
I'd give my right arm to be labelled a purist - a compliment rather than a slur in my opinion.
WhenI first started playing ITM I was lucky in that a local banjo player (an All-Ireland and All-Britain champion) encouraged me to play in the local sessions and eventually I settled into a great little session we had every Friday night.
Like Saint says, he had the patience to point out my mistakes, and that was invaluable for my playing. Newcomers need to play with players who are better than themselves in order to learn the music and gain an understanding of it.
Great last post Mick by the way. Get one of those types in your session and it can balls the whole thing up.
Micky, I hope you’ll not stay away because of this teapot tsunami. Around here, there are chips on soulders, argument stalkers loaded for bear, and folks who compulsively over-parse the comments and find positions the author wouldn’t recognize. I wish we could all just give some benefit of doubt before drawing rapiers. A few civil questions might clarify the poster's intent and head off another pointless conflagration.
Fair enough BB but i for one take him at his word, as i do for everyone unless shown otherwise.
He has spoken his mind, he has served his 'time' in this game. Whether i agree with his viewpoint is not really relevant, after all I am not a pure drop kinda guy.
But i respect his position. If it were me he was talking about i would respect his opinion .I personally have found that 'respect' is the 'big word' in life, I offer it to all, for many reasons.
I have encountered situations like his, fortunately i am big and ugly enough not to be ignored. Others are not in the same position.My own suggestion would be some conflict mediation, a meeting on neutral ground with a neutral mediator.
Who's session is it? anyone talked to the landlord? what do the 'punters' think of it all? the other players? the landlord?
While completely agreeing with Mr. Finn's sentiment it reminded me of a post I made where I was attempting to slag CCE in a very light hearted way and bumping into somebody in the pub the next day who had read my post and was totally insulted and p*ssed off, she is heavily into CCE but the last person I would have pegged to be reading this website. So there you go. Well said Mickey, there are far too many people out there pontificating about the music. The real danger is in places abroad, like Canada or New Zealand for example, where people who know absolutely nothing about the music and it's culture are having the wool pulled over their eyes by those who profess to be experts.
Grego, be on alert for wool-pulling terrorists posing as musical experts. I'm sure the US border is sealed, so they'll be stacking up on your side of the 49th parallel.
Now you've gone and upset ytiruces dnalemoh with your reference to "wool-pulling terrorists." Now we're going to see all kinds of sheep farmers rendered to Syria.
Of course you Montana cowboys will be celebrating - seen that in the movies!
BB, I was under the impression that there were only three bodhran players in the world worthy of the name. One's in Ireland, another one's dead, and I've forgotten the name of the third.
I loved this thread.It is far from being resolved!The Irish language is almost lost and the form of music played in the island of Ireland will follow.Quickly it is being merged into a modern genre by players who will never have known what traditional music was.Presently players are turning up at sessions with their aresnal of tunes and when they recoginize one they dive in.They do not play along with other musicians.I do not mean speed!! they do not use the same phrases.I doubt if the contributers here will be able to follow this.When I join in with other musicians I listen to them and try to compliment how they are playing.If I cant play with the music i stay out and listen.I dont like others to hijac a tune and disruptthe phrasing.I can pardon a fool but it beggars belief how many they number.They all believe they know something about Irish music.They will never listen to anyone but themselves treating irish music like some kinda comfort food.
The Irish Language is not almost lost. That is simply ignoring the facts on the ground. Fair enough the number of Irish speakers is dwarfed by the number of English speakers, but that is not , to my mind relevant.
In reference to your point about phrasing. that has 2 aspects, Listening , If they don't listen then how can they play sympathetically, and attitude. If they think'' this is how the tune is, and should be played'' then once again they will only have there one way of playing the tune.
But remember, it is a two way thing, The fine art is to be able to adapt to any situation, flexibility .
But in the mass sessions i see there does seem to be a bluring of lines, everyone just doing their thing and it all can be a bit messy.
But Phillip, can you suggest any practical remedy's for the problems you describe?
The Irish language *is* almost lost, jig. That *is* the "facts on the ground". The number of speakers in both relative and absolute terms is definitely relevant to anyone concerned with the revitalisation of the language whether they be government official, linguist, teacher or whatever, although of course the number of speakers is only part of the story. The push to reinstate Irish as a national language from the top down has failed. Fortunately the government is now more progressive in its outlook and has recently been implementing policies that might just give the language a chance if everyone pulls together and cooperates to save it. The downside is that there are people like you out there who have an attitude of "it's not almost lost". If everyone took that attitude, there's no hope for the language. I'm not trying to guilt trip you or have a go at you here. I'm just telling it like it is. You have to do your bit too.
I don't think it can or will be resolved.Music is funded and supported by commerce and no longer the peoples natural entertainment.Competions will kill the soul of the music also.The music was nurtured over the years not by ego but by being a simple social function.Now and again individualls have put themselves forward as maestros which again took awayfrom the tradition.The future now is that universites will decide what the music is.These experts have been appointed in the first instance by whom?"masters"or preformers?
Iam studing in the old university of the session.Perhaps I have learned how to listen but arround us are players that are unaware listening is part of playing.In the past musicians spoke little as they played but we had gumption to know to listen.Todays fools will talk ad nausea play worse and expect all to praise their ability.Traditional music's function is changed but not for me and I hope many more.
.The answer is to let them know In te words of the late Tommy Mcguire of Belfast "They know **** all about traditional music"
But dow, so many of my friend are fluent Irish speakers. Even my ex wife who comes from new york,and has no Irish blood what so ever speaks Irish.
It may be a minority activity, but around here, and we are not even in the gaeltacht , i regularly hear it spoken. Its not going away.
There are more and more people speaking Irish outside of the Gaeltacht now, especially amongst the middle classes. Even here in Sydney - about as far away from the Gaeltacht as you can possibly get - there are a few fluent speakers who really care about the language. But whilst that's going on, the language is declining in the Gaeltacht areas where Irish should be transmitted as a mother tongue from generation to generation. Unfortunately it's this link that's seriously under threat. It doesn't many how many people there are out there like your ex wife, and it doesn't matter how many thousands of school kids you try and teach it to as a 2nd language, if there's no community of speakers there to maintain cultural continuity, then the language dies. Fortunately the government has realised this, and these new government initiatives are sensibly targeting the Gaeltacht areas and providing incentives and rewards for Irish-speaking families. Hopefully it won't have been too late.
Getting back to the music: it's a bit silly to compare the endangerment of the Irish language with what's happening to trad music. Even if trad music as it is now died a death, it would be fairly easy to revive it in the future. Much more difficult to revive a dead language. They did it with Hebrew, but have failed with so many others...
Languages die all the time.I hope Irish can survive.Times change but if we don't know what what we have is we will lose it.Irish music has had the patronage of the people in small hamlets and parishes throughout this country and abroad.It is now a commodity for sale on disc.These discs are the scourse material for the future generations.Mike Finn and others keep the music alive in it's traditional setting are sidelined .Their music is lost as new musicians turn out more c.d.s based on music from c.d.s.Don't scorn purism .Genuine interest in and love of traditional music .is the key to its survival.
On a tangent again: the other day I was just reading about this Amerindian language that currently only has one speaker left - an elderly woman. Can you imagine being that woman, having nobody else to talk to in your mother tongue? When she dies she'll take her language with her. So sad...
Micky fair play to you. In the past ten years I have never seen so many self appointed experts and with Phds too some not even from this country. The majority of music discussed is commercial traditional music. I too came from a family that played traditional music for generations. What we have left for the most part is a souless, ego ridden music controlled by clicks going under theguise of Irish traditional music. When the bubble bursts we will then see who is left to pick up the peices
I'm relaly enjoying the series on trad music on TG4 (http://www.tg4.ie/ follow the "web tv" menu for a wonderful half-hour program on the music of Clare). Partly because much of the audio is spoken Irish.
On the TG4 main page, click on "web tv" in the upper menu, to the left.
Then click on "web tv" again on the new screen.
On the next screen, go to the green menu box on the left and click on Ceol Cartlann.
This opens an archive of shows, most around a half hour long (with commercials (that are often hilarious))—they’re all worth watching.
For the show on Co. Clare music, click “play” on Canuinti Ceol 21/10/2007. It's a brilliant intro to the music, including a clip of Willie Clancy playing the pipes, and Micho Russell making the most of a tune on the street in Doolin.
Thansk to Larry (you know who you are ) for pointing this series out to me.
I respect Davy Spillane & Sharon Shannon as exceptionally talented musicians. I do not particularly care for the genre that either has developed. Thus is provided one definition of "Purism". I prefer my music neat - within the tradition, & all of its wonderful subtlety. Davy & Sharon are mesmeric when they play within the tradition. Let there be no doubt - both have a profound understanding of the tradition.
Then there's "Purist" as yelled by people who do not understand the music, but want to get in on the act. I have no time for this at all. It is rude, discourteous, ignorant and lazy. I doubt that such people typically have much music in them, at all. What is it that they hear, when they play ? When told by people who have been playing for decades, or reared in the tradition, or both, that they are massacring the music, what happens ? They yell "Purist" as though it were an insult . Then along come defenders, citing Davy Spillane.... Oh Lord.
It happens on occasion that new instruments get adopted in to the mainstream tradition. The most recent example is the bouzouki. Terrific addition - & gratitude primarily due to Johnny Moynihan & of course Donal Lunny. But, folks, anyone who would wish to extend the argument to encompass clarinets, saxophones, Alpine horns or didgeridoos does not understand why such is not possible. This does not reflect "Purism" , but rather knowledge of the music. Folks who want to do whatever they wish on the said instruments are of course quite free to do so. Please, folks who so wish, do not do so at traditional sessions.
Let me also make a further point, VERY strongly. It is the purists who go to the greatest lengths to make the music accessible to novice players. Do you find many session-crashers, hi-jackers or showboaters giving over evenings & Saturday afternoons to teach without payment ? I doubt it. Do you find them lending instruments to promising kids ? Hardly. I know some so-called purists - by no means wealthy themselves - who have actually bought good instruments for kids whose parents could not afford them. Personally, I would like to hear less whinging about "Purism" in sessions, and see more people coming to lessons. That which you get out of most things in life is a precise function of that which you put in.
Purists, who keep the tradition alive, are a much-maligned breed.
Last night I was at a session where I only listened.
I did not play. I believe it does qualify as pure & true to the Irish Session Tradition.
I also know that a few of those musicians attend sessions which are more of a mix; with definitely nontraditional instruments.
& some of the musicians hold sessions which are ~ should I say 'closed sessions' ? Perhaps the most pure of all.
With all those options it is hard to imagine that one is threatened by the other.
Is it fair to suggest that attempts to suppress music which is deemed unfavorable might not be wise?
That door swings both directions.
& please someone ~ Where is that wonderful thesession.org humor?
I have been playing various instruments since I wasfive years old. I played in the sessions in McNeil's during the HebFest this year, and thoroghly enjoyed it, everyone was welcoming and nice about the fact I had never played in a session before.
I have to say after eading several articles on this forum, I have been well put off playing in sessions basically because of some of the snobby self-centred attitudes of some people on here.
I was hoping to start attending more sessions because I learnt so much the last time.
Have to say I am having second thoughts now. Thanks guys, what a great help you have been.
Those who scorn "purism"...
Those who scorn "purism"...
I've noticed a few posts here lately by two eejits who hang around my local Irish Traditional Music scene. You know the type, wannabe trad musicians, but with no grounding in the music, damn little in the way of respect for it and very little discernible aptitude for it. Neither of these gents plays intsruments which have any particular association for (or, in my view, place in - but we'll perhaps come to that later) Irish Traditional Music.
However, by virtue of the fact that both have hovered on the fringes of Irish Traditional Music sessions for a couple of years now, each feels himself qualified to give their ill-formed opinions on this discussion board about how sessions ought to be.
And both are damning of "purists". Now this vexes me. Being something of an Irish Traditional Music aficionado - I rarely listen to any other form of music, I don't know how to play/have never been interested in playing any other form of music - it irritates me that such Johhny-Come-Latelies can coat-tail some of the best sessions in these parts, and still revile the "purists" such as myself with whom they play and from whom they've picked up what little bit of know-how that they have. (Not from me, by the way, because I refuse to give an inch to such wander-ins whose words and deeds indicate that their attachment to an ceol is very shallow.)
I'm interested in how other members of the session community deal with such irritants. I'm finding that my session pleasure is being severely limited by the prospect of going along to some sessions that I used to frequent for fear of having my night ruined by these guys or people like them. I have thought of starting a local session, posting it here and putting a warning in the introductory post to the effect that John Doe and Joe Bloggs are not welcome ... one session-leader from another part of town laughed when I suggested this and said that such a warning would, in itself, be guaranteed to lure him across to play.
Perhaps I'm getting increasingly crabbit as I approach my dotage, but I really can't tolerate people messing about with my musical heritage and spouting ill-informedly about same, when they know sweet FA whereof they speak.
God save us all!
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
*gulp*
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
You can:
1. Start yr own session- by invitation only.
2. Start to play a new instrument- one that challenges you more than the yoyos irritate you. Your concentration will be on the tune rather than on them.
3. Get to know them better so that you can educate them into a little respect for the tradition.
4. Relax. You don't know everything either. Better to be inclusive than exclusive.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by David Levine
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
At your session w/ the blokes just calm down. Chat a bit, have a few tunes, chat some more and then go home. You can't control anyone but yourself.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by MarcoTam
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
And come up with a new name! Mickey Finn would turn in his grave listening to you
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Hey, give Mickey some room. All he's doing is trying to protect his music from some polution.
Hey Mickey, e-mail the names of these two, so I can look out for them.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by ...
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Purism certainly has it's place. The fact that there are those who will not dilute their music to the lowest common denominator or go with the latest fad is a marvellous resource for the generations to come.
Purism is the well into which we can all dip and do our own thing, but it is essential that the well remain unpolluted so that the music can live on in it's essentially bloody marvellous form.
While I wouldn't necessarily go to the extremes that Mickey suggests, and indeed would encourage newcomers to the music I can appreciate the wish to remain virginal musically speaking
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by breandan
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Mr mcknowall, my name is Micky Finn (or Michael, as my ma prefers to call me; Miko as some of my mates call me and Michael Peter Finn as I'm known when I'm up before the RM - but that's another story for another time and another place).
Just wishing out loud that the diluters and polluters of an ceol rince would keep their dabbling to themselves OR to some other sessions where such attentions are welcome. I've seen a number of once-decent sessions go down the tubes lately with the unwanted presence of untutored, uninformed and quite frankly unnecessary players.
And, I've seen and heard such players start to give lectures to others - session regulars - on all sorts of topics on which their grasp was rudimentary if it existed at all.
I wouldn't claim to know everything - far be it from anyone to make such a claim - however, i would claim to have derived a fair bit of knowledge about the music through having been immersed in it from an early age and having pursued (at, as Flann O'Brien would have it, times when it was neither profitable nor popular) for a fair few years). Hence I wince when I witness the music becoming a mere commodity which various yahoos can decide, for reasons unknown to me, to subscribe. And then to have the temerity to begin to write things on discussion boards such as this which are designed to indicate that they have an opinion which is in any way worth listening to.
As for starting my own session, cocus, lately I've begun to do just that. One-nighters, here and there, invitation only - often after hours in sympathetic establishments. More and more of the people I play with are doing likewise.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Funny thing this "purist" label. We all probably know some old guys who , because of the lack of exposure to sources of change, play a style that is pure, or unaffected. These are the very people who would never refer to themselves as purists.
It's not a label you can apply to yourself, because if you are pure by virtue of the fact that you have never been exposed, well how the hell can you be a judge of it?
Purist me a*se, introverted more like, Get a grip Mickey, you're doing your own head in.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Backer
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Well, not an easy situation micky. But what exactly are these fella's doing? are they.... backing, or playin the tunes? i would guess you have some annoying backers?
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I began to apply the label "purist" to myself only because it's something which has been applied to me by others - presumably as a pejorative term. (In much the same way as I'm happy to refer to myself as a "Paddy" when among fellow Irishmen, but baulk at it when used by some gather-up from England.) There are, as Backer's note has reminded me, sessions which are far more purist than those in which I nromally play and, indeed, players who are far more purist than I. (Although not from the South West, I have a real love of tunes from that part of the world, not just the polkas and slides, but those lovely, deceptively simplistic reels that O'Keeffe and his uncle before him are associated with.) One of my best mates is from Mayo but plays in a Donegal style and will talk at great length about how Glackin is the dog's tidgers. Personally Galckin doesn't do it for me in the way that, for example, Cranitch does. But I think we'd all agree that Glackin and Cranitch play the music beautifully and reasonably purely and their music doesn;t suffer a jot from not being polluted by absurd musical influences from outside the mainstream ...
Horses for courses, I suppose. I'd prefer to listen to scratchy oul' recordings of Dennis Murphy and Julia Clifford any day rather than to the likes of more supposedly "interesting" musicians such as Afro Celt Sound System or Kila ... suppose that makes a boring oul' purist rather than a musical visionary. I'm happy enough with that.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Jig ... you got in before me there. Haven't quite for the knack yet of sticking these notes up so that they follow straight on the previous one I was reading. All gets a bit confusing, doesn't it?
One fancies himself as a backer, the other attempts the tunes - but plays an instrument which can be used to play chords as well and annoyingly does so when he doesn't know the tune in question.
But they're just the latest tips of the iceberg. In forty years of playing music, I've seen people like these pair pop up all over the place. Thankfully, often as a result of some fairly robust advice but more often because they get bored with their latest musical fad and pursue other avenues, they tend not to stick around. At one session house I used to play at in the 80s, myself and the regular crew decided we would drift off gradually over the course of a few weeks till only this eejit of a guitar player and his mate on some sort of African drum yoke were left to turn up. We'd let the landlord in on the scam and we had a few spies in the camp anyway. Your men turned up dutifully for two weeks before they got the message. What larks, Pip, what larks! But I got fed up with all sort of shenanigans. These days I'd be more inclined to be confrontational. Or, depending on my mood, to do what I've been doing lately - ie giving open sessions a miss in favour of the invite only affair.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
well micky, confrontation would be my personal choice. after all, if we all get driven off from the open sessions .... then people might get the mistaken idea that sessions are about african drum s and guitar players!
Other than that how about stopping abruptly when they join in? this can get the message accross.
Open sessions though..... sarcasm?
Purist though, I am not a purist. Much as i love and respect the pure drop, i also enjoy the likes of kila.Though its really the brothers playing i love not all the additional 'city' noises.
In fact perhaps it really is a city/country thing? City folk and the younger generation are used to all this excess stuff, music sounds empty without samples and car horns.etc.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I have to respond to this. May the trad gods strike me down with bows and tippers for saying this but...
I find the term purist really disconcerting. I love the afro-celts, lunasa, kila, grada and others who like those before them, have interpreted the music and have created another step in the evolutionary nature that music is. I also have a great respect for the old school trad and the interpretations they themselves have etched into the annals of trad.
Furthermore, from a personal perspective as a musician who has learnt from the 'purists' in Ireland but who has grown up and studied other music forms here in Australia, I find it hypocritical to negate those other influences in my playing. Sure, I wouldn't go and bugger up a 'purist' session (if there is such a thing in Queensland) but I'm not going to pretend to be something that I'm not when I record or play with the Shakes - and thats the wonderful part of musical evolution. Putting a part of yourself to the music.
I know I've probably gone a bit off track here; my apologies. My advise Mickey is if you're not happy - say something/educate and share.
And while I'm here, what's with the (to use an antipodean phrase) 'p*ss and whinge' threads? I used to enjoy logging on in my breaks to read some enlightening discussions. I must admit it sounds like thesession.org has sucumbed to blackgoogle.com - spread the love!
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by b2jay
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
“Lack of exposure” to outside influences is not the only reason for not messing about with the music or for playing in an old style. Is it really necessary to incorporate everything we hear into our playing like an unthinking sponge? It seems that a number of people who play Irish music are rather lacking in musical taste and discernment (as evidenced by several recent CDs and by many sessions.)
I have quite broad musical interests but I don’t see why I should radically depart from my family’s style of playing. Does this make me a backward-looking fuddy-duddy? Listen to Norwegian fiddlers, they have a marvellously archaic way of playing and nobody looks down their noses at them for playing in the old style.
If you listen to recordings from the 1920s and 30s or of older players recorded in the 70s and 80s, their music is far from boring. In many cultures the traditional way of playing is respected, but some players of Irish music suffer from an inferiority complex, thinking that the music must be supplemented in some way to make it good!, or else sanitized in some way, often removing discordant elements and rhythmic complexity, (as evidenced by the bland fiddle music churned out by some classicalizers!) Innovation is of course part of the tradition (John Doherty and Neillie Boyle, for instance, played in distinctively individual styles), but any innovation that is worth listening to must come from a deep understanding of the musical tradition. And the ‘anti-purists’ usually have little or no understanding of, and very little respect for, the musical tradition.
(There is a strange but persistent view that regional styles themselves exist because of insular attitudes and a lack of broader exposure to music. See my post at the end of this discussion for instance):
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14690
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by dsndfkjasf
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Mickey Finn,
I can't help but notice that during your reference to Flann O'Brien, you closed a paranthesis that you never opened. This is a ghastly misuse of the English language. Now, as an advocate of correct and proper use of language, I am horrified at this oversight on your behalf. Please, do not use so flippently the language that I know and love everything about. Quite frankly, you have deeply offended me. You also started a sentence with the word 'and', which I won't even dignify with a retort. You disgust me and you should think more carefully before you join in on others who wish to express their views using the English language.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Penfold
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
*flippantly*
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Libertango
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
It's a fair cop. I'm guilty of using the term "purist" in a recent post.
I used it, perhaps mistakenly, to refer to the kind of anorak who is fond of telling one exactly how to play the music, without being able to play too well (or at all) himself, or for that matter, having any more knowledge on the subject of ITM than onesself.
I hope that clarifies my position on my use of the term.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
It appears to me that Micky Finn is someone who has been steadily playing and listening to "traditional Irish music" (see Homepage) over the years, and is now boiling over with frustration at seeing frivolous newcomers debase the music he loves. The language he has used in expressing this may be controversial, but surely he has come to the right place for support?
There will always be those who want to dabble in a musical genre,and mix it with whatever other style takes their fancy. They are entitled to do this in the privacy of their own home, or with like-minded individuals. If they have the arrogance to attempt to impose their lowest-common-denominator ideas on their hosts, they should be taken in hand for their own good and the good of the established style they wish to meddle with.
I have little patience myself with these smug opportunists, and can fully understand how they might anger an otherwise temperate person.
I have noted previously how new posters to this site can be misunderstood; especially if they have been nursing an issue which they need to deal with.
Micky Finn has given us some background on himself, and identified a genuine grievance. I hope we will help him.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Mr Micky Finn
If what you are suggesting is that “You know more” and therefore the rest should shut up and listen, well I’m sorry, I maintain my stance.
If on the other hand you are suggesting that your session is being “hijacked” by a few mumbo jumbo music lovers, that’s different and I would have thought the options on solving it are obvious.
Slán
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Enigma, I think Mr. Finn has made that distinction clear, and your kneejerk attack on him says little about his level of tolerance and more about yours.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Mickey,
I suspect that most folks here are sympathetic with your frustrations, even if a little taken aback at the strength of your expression of them here. The importance that newcommers tread softly and respect the existing practice of an open session has often been discussed here as well.
My personal feeling is that perhaps more traditional playing is appropriate to sessions, while the kind of innovations you characterize are more appropriate to performing (or a private house, as has been suggested). Of course, I pay good money to hear traditional playing more oftern than not.
It does seem like one of the interesting things about open sessions is the tension between the comfort of long association, and the interest of unexpected guests (assuming they are intelligent and considerate enough to observe the basic rules of session ettiquette).
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
The world is full of "poser" melody players, who basically can play F all, but swan around and criticise others, usually backers.
They need to be jettisoned as soon as possible.
Surround yourself with backers, they all love the tradition, and know what they are doing.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Anyone who shows up to a session and doesn't know the tunes should be told to sit tight and listen. Anyone who shows up with a ******ing djembe or something should be shown the door. God's mercy on these fools, for I will have none.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Farr
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Way to throw one's self to the wolves Mickey!.... Brave man ye are.. I do understand what you mean...We have some lurkers aswell and I'm sure most good sessions do.
I liked the idea Cocus..of trying to play on a different instrument..I'm sure that would keep anyones mind busy..
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by lamh trom
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I agree with Enigma.
Who is Mickey Finn to call people "wannabe trad musicians" or say that their opinions are "ill formed"? Not to mention "Those who scorn "purism"... Are we supposed to only listen to The Bothy Band and Boys of The Lough, and under no circumstances any new influence like Lunasa or Solas?
I'm surprised all these people can come to Mick's defense when they:
a. don't know who these people are, and only what his opinion of them is.
and
b. what instruments they play
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
One of the reasons it's so hard to learn about traditional music is the scorn that the trad players show the newbies to the style (speaking from my experience as well as what I have read on this site). Yes, it's important to watch and learn from those that know. And yes, if you are holding a trad session, one should be respectful of the protocol. But, it's very discouraging to hear what an established (so I'm assuming) trad player has to say about those that want to experience the fun of a session. If folks are showing up at your session and are not following protocol, TELL THEM! No need to be nasty.
It's already intimidating enough without having to be worried about what the "expert" thinks.
(and i really don't want to hear about my use of the english language in this post, so much blah, blah, blah.)
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Wyogal
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Wyogal, your attitude reflects how I was brought into the tradition--showing a generosity of spirit, helping others learn the music and the customs, being patient.
It's hard to say, given what he's posted so far, whether Mr. Finn has exhausted those traits, or simply never bothered with them.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I'm lucky to have a generous and kind teacher, a former violin student that has returned. She has started a session here, and I am grateful to be able to go and learn, and have things explained in a kind way. I had enough of egos when playing in symphonies, and was shocked when the "friendly" atmosphere of the old-time players was as back-stabbing as the divas in the "classical" realm that I was playing with.
That said, I have enjoyed learning from others on this site. I have learned much!
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Wyogal
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
In my experience it's very rare, but occasionally someone comes to the music as a total newbie with their ego all over their sleeve. And no matter how nice and helpful you are with them, they press on and make a nuisance of themselves.
That may be what M. Finn is on about.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Come on tat, hes been at this game for 40yrs,id say its a fair enough assumption he's been there and done that re rewbies. But its not newbies as such hes on about , is it? But about some folk who are cramping his style , perhaps jazzing the tunes up?
Its not about egos,but respect for the established style of the session, After all, if i joined your session and started pushing boundries, you'd rather stayed in place you too might have something to say....
But i agree its hard to be clear about what exactly they are doing. Though, i gather they are at this session too, so might we hear from them? or have we?......
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
tat, true... seen that happen, too.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Wyogal
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I was once accused of being a purist by a chap who plays the 12-string guitar and with whom I'd chosen to go out and play.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
The honest thing to do is to declare yourself a closed shop, by invitation only, and not get involved in underhanded soul destroying shenanigans. At least the people involved will know where they stand with you. ... but don't pretend, even for a second, that you are open, because you are not ... and that is alright too. No need to shift the blame onto others who do not match yer expectations. These are your values and your boundaries. I don't think thesession.org is the right place to be being critical of individuals you see regularly at your own session. You need to tell the people involved face to face, and not be critical of people who voluntarily contribute to the auld yellaboard. Why shouldn't they join and contribute to this forum? That is just plain underhand and not very nice ... and I say that from a neutral position because I know fer fact I am NOT one of the two you are complaining about.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Mr Finn told us what he likes, South West simple no frills tunes.
He does not want the likes of Paddy Glackin at his session, and doubtless Gerry O'Connor and Mike McGoldrick are ruled out as well, for their innovation.
You could have a lonely life, Mr Finn.
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Clearly not related to Fred.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
jig, you've apparently mistaken me for someone who's arguing against Mr. Finn.
As I said above, it's possible he's exhausted his generosity toward these two. They are relative newbies to the music--he says they've only been at it a few years. Yet that's long enough to erode even a patient person's generosity if it's taken for granted, or worse, advante of.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I'm surprised at how many people have misread Micky Finn's post. It didn't strike me as a rip on innovators, newbies, or people who like to have "fun" at their sessions. The man is angry at pontificating fringe musicians who casually and recklessly muck up good sessions.
I am a comically average session musician - but I make a sincere effort to be a real student of the music. I like to have fun too, but I also try and respect how much time and effort people have put into their tunes. As Llig has mentioned many times, this is a narrowly defined genre of music. I for one respect Micky's right to defend it against those that would seek to compromise it with a frivolous attitude.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Besides, I think it's Dow in disguise....
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Once again, I must respond to neddie. I feel dissapointed that you have assumed that those who have outside influences incorporate all like an 'unthinking musical sponge'? Man that is harsh. Give us some credit for some discernment.
I fully agree and support your playing in your family heritage. As I said earlier I appreciate and support the old school. It's great. However, it is tremendously difficult to do this in Australia, particularly when the homogenisation of regional styles is rife and if your own personal family heritage is not Irish to start with.
Furthermore, I think your examples of innovation in trad were wonderful. That's what I was talking about. But please, give some credit to those who actually do listen and break down all the elements intently in order to learn; those who have come from a classical background but who have overcome this *apparent* handicap to play 'authentically' and who love the discordancy and the rhythmic complexity of which you talk.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by b2jay
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Tat, there are allways two sides to every argument. I like to keep an open mind so may well be found on both sides of a discussion!
I can relate to mr finns point of view in many ways, many of us ,im sure also can, however its also good to see it from another perspective.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
How can anyone relate to Mr Finn's argument. "Sessions are for people I like". That would rule say Martin Hayes out of many sessions, and Davy Spillane, and Paddy Maloney, Donal Lunny and certainly Andy Irvine, not to mention countless others.
Certainly you can hold those views, but you are not going to enjoy sessions. Get another hobby, like train spotting.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I can sympathize with what Micky was saying, and after seeing his expression develop over the course of the thread it becomes clear that he's frustrated over something I have often been frustrated over as well. Most of my experience has been at one particular pub here in SF and over the last 20 years I have seen exactly the sorts of individuals Micky describes coming through the door.
One type was the novice musicians who wanted to join in but weren’t quite ready to play at a level that was anywhere near where the session was. These are the most difficult to deal with because you don’t want to discourage anyone. I’m still not sure about exactly what to do, and I try to be as tolerant and helpful as possible. The bottom line seems to be to include them as long as they don’t expect the session to start catering to them. If they’re there for the right reason they’ll be happy to soak up as much as they can and not interfere by pushing their expectations on the rest of us. We’ve been very lucky about this in recent years and many of these people have become good musicians and welcomed participants.
The other type is easier to deal with. These are the ones who clearly are there to attempt to change the session. These people are the ones who will accuse us of being “purists” for not allowing them to alter the session to what they think it should be. Luckily most have only offered a limited exposure to what they were all about, but it was always easy to see how what they were all about had nothing to do with the session we were having.
My way of dealing with these people was with polite confrontation. I would point out as tactfully as possible that the people who started this session didn't have jazz flute, djembe, etc., etc., in mind and that they were interrupting the flow of the session. This rarely got a polite response in return, but the message got across nonetheless.
Currently there’s a session in the city where this sort of thing was exactly what the originators had in mind and I can recommend it to the person. But before it was there all I could do was suggest they start their own session somewhere else.
I remember when I was in Galway in 1990 there was a Sunday afternoon session at a pub (that has changed hands many times since) where the bongos, shakers, saxophones, jazz flutes etc., where all gathered. That’s where I first met Sean Tyrell who showed up with a small amp and asked me to scoot over a bit so he could plug it in. I had a blast – it was an anything-goes sort of affair – more of an Irish jam-session. The whole pub filled with people who were all there to enjoy the unusual session that it was – great buzz. It almost seemed like it was a release valve for the other sessions where none of that would have been appreciated. But that sort of thing had a home -- a place where it thrived. I think every town that has a traditional session should also have one of these so the shackers and bongo-heads can have their fun with the music too.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Micky Finn argued against those who are against modern musicians who play in the old style, i.e., those who ‘scorn’ the ‘purists’. I agree with him on the whole (even in finding Paddy Glackin quite uninteresting). I like accompaniment, and have been jamming with the same guitarist for nearly 15 years. I myself like Moving Hearts (with the magnificent Donal Lunny, Davy Spillane, & Declan Masterson). I liked the Scottish folk-rock band Wolfstone when I first heard them in concert in the early 90s. I like Hedningarna the Swedish-folk-Goth-rock innovators. I am just agreeing with Micky Finn that anti-purists ought to leave us traditionalists alone. (Do Baroque players get this kind of hassle from the Late-Classical bunch!?)
(By the way, as much fun as pub sessions can be, I don’t think that they are the obviously the best forum for traditional music!)
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by dsndfkjasf
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I can sympathize with Finn's position because, though I do not have extensive session experience, I can understand (1) that there are people who have devoted their lives to preserving ITM and ITM styles, and (2) that there are plenty of pretenders in the world who seem, almost desperately, to want others to think they have devoted their lives to some sort of tradition, but in actuality have never been devoted to anything. Of course, I do not actyally know whether the people Finn is talking about fall into the latter category; but I can sympathize because if they do, then his frustration seems patently understandable. To understand it, in other words, all one needs is to have been sincerely devoted to something and to have been confronted by those who are not but pretend to be. This is just when any of us needs to vent! And as far as I can tell, that is all he is doing.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Eddie Jones
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Reels are probably Scottish in origin, Hornpipes English. Mazurkas, Polkas, Strathspeys, Slides, Barndances, Waltzes come from all over the place. So where exactly does the purity come from? Is it a style, or a collection of styles? When exactly did the bell ring to establish the beginning of the great age of purity?
Where did the instruments come from? The pipes, the fiddles the flutes...........all universal, there are pipes in every part of the world, always have been -since man started to get bored of the long nights.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Backer
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I am curious,Micky; how do you know that these aforementioned gentlemen you refer to are posting here?
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I wonder if those aforementioned "purism" scorners who post here (heaven forbid
that they should post here on this auld yellaboard) know it is they who are being complained about. it makes sense to talk to them and tell them face to face. Much kinder to them and yourself in the long run to have your beef out in the open with them, between you and them.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Talk about chastened!
I was having a few tunes and a few drinks last night with a couple of long-time friends last night and I mentioned that I'd done a message here about this interloper problem which we've been discussing between ourselves for a while.
One of my friends damn near blew a fuse. "You stupid oul' goat! Aren't you only after leaving yourself open to every gombeen and bucketmouth to lay into you!" And next thing he's on the internet, asking me to show him what I said and what the reaction was. "There you go," he says. "Half the flamin' world making little of you. Bad enough some hooer down the pub taking the hand out of you, but writing stuff on the internet's an invitation to people to twist you."
So, red-faced, I had to concede that it's not perhaps the wisest thing in the world to give out your thoughts here. Especially since, unlike some of the people who write here, I'm only a tuppence-halfpenny player and a not very learned critic of the music. I just play the damn thing, have done for more years than I can remember and the music's been a good friend from time to time and a cruel mistress at others. But I'm not a scholar of the music, I can't read a note of it. Just picked up the odd tune here and there and some of them probably not the very best of tunes either. Maybe buckoes like me ought to do what we're here to do, to play the tunes and to keep our mouths shut.
And from this point on, that's likely what I'll do. But there are one or two points I ought to just air before I fade into the background again.
Firstly, some of you guys are awful twisters. You'd misquote a man to try to hang him on his own words, even if he didn't say them.
I'll give you an example.
I wrote the following. "One of my best mates is from Mayo but plays in a Donegal style and will talk at great length about how Glackin is the dog's tidgers. Personally Galckin doesn't do it for me in the way that, for example, Cranitch does. But I think we'd all agree that Glackin and Cranitch play the music beautifully and reasonably purely and their music doesn;t suffer a jot from not being polluted by absurd musical influences from outside the mainstream ..."
And then suddenly the following appears. "He does not want the likes of Paddy Glackin at his session, and doubtless Gerry O'Connor and Mike McGoldrick are ruled out as well, for their innovation."
Now ... that's completely not what I said above. In fact, I only quoted what I did above, because I have said the same to Paddy Glackin's face. In Dublin, more years ago than I care to remember, I had a few tunes one night in a pub where Paddy happened to wandered into and after he led off a few sets, he saw me struggle to get into one of the tunes and sit it out. I'd been going great guns up till then and we had a chat about how, when certain people play in certain styles, others find it very hard to get the rhythm, etc. So I felt I had to confess that I found the Donegal style jarred with me and we had a very amiable and enlightening (for me, at any rate!) discussion about speed, swing, attack and accent. And how it's important in music, if you want to develop yourself, to know what you want to play like and then dedicate yourself to achieving that personal style and applying it to your music.
However, I wished to God you hadn't mentioned the other two names, sir!
As for Mike McGoldrick, I remember the buzz around him when he was coming on in Manchester, where I used to spend a bit of time when I was in a travelling job. And I always kept an ear out for him. I got to know some of the musicians up that neck of the woods and they were full of priase for him. I'll never forget hearing him on the radio playing a pipe solo - two reels, one of which was The Earl's Chair - at The William Kennedy Festival one night and it was a real spine-tingling moment. Flute, whistle, pipes, banjo, etc. Some player! But, Mike takes his music off in all sorts of directions and I'm not sure I'm very keen on every avenue he explores.
But now, if people read this place as shallowly as some of the people here already have read what I've said, there'll be one or two people who'll be saying, "Finn ought to watch his manners, bad-mouthing Mike McGoldrick".
And as for Gerry O'Connor. While I've never had a tune with him, I have met his dad in Garrykennedy and a nicer, more unassuming man you couldn't hope to meet. And full of pride in his boy!
Now, I would have no problem with any of those lads coming into some place I was playing and joining in. They might find the pace and the repertoire a bit boring, but I know that they'd just fit in with the music fine. Because their grounding is thorough; they grew up with the music and they knwo what they're doing and what they're talking about.
Just remember the point of my original post. It was to bemoan how various newcomers to the traditional Irish music scene in and around where I live, have decided to blast their way in and, without any grounding, started spouting in a way which has upset those who've kept the flame lit for many years. And then, I've noticed (or had it drawn to my attention!), repeated the self-same attitude right here...
As for talking to these particular individuals who've been so out of line. I've had several conversations with each to point out the errors of their ways, and indeed, witnessed one of them getting an almighty roasting one night in a pub. But it's water off a duck's back. Back they come, like shooting ducks in one of them air rifle stalls in Warrenpoint that my da used to haul us off to when we were young.
Anyway! As I said, maybe I'm just a crabbit oul man and getting crabbiter as the years advance. Maybe us oul fellas ought to bow out and leave the music alone. Maybe we only get in the way, remembering how the music used to be played and feeling upset when some musical ne'er-do-well, with no feeling or sensitivity feels that he can claim the music for himself without having earned the music for himself. (Not, mind you, that I would class vague strumming as music in any event. Or full-throttle strangulation of the tunes as music either.)
And hence I'll take my friend's very sensible and very wise advice and leave off writing on the internet for now. I wish I'd never started this crack, but what's done is done.
Slan go foill.
Micky Finn
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Wll Mick,I for one welcome you here and hope you can see your way round to writing on the internet some more. It would be a poor world if we cant offer a bit of respect to a fella like yourself.
Ignore cheap and glib comments, they say more about the writer than yourself.
You raise valid points and sparked an interesting debate, I feel its healthy for a man to speak his mind.
You tell em!
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Micky, I'll be sorry if you don't return here occasionally. I've very much appreciated you honesty and lack of lack of selfimportance. We need more of ther likes of yous to counter all the upstart smartarses.
You havn't said one single word so far that I havn't wholeheartedly agreed with. And I'm ashamed of some the attitudes of some of the company I inadvertantly keep here.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by ...
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I give you credit for getting Glackin to talk, not an easy thing to accomplish.
Gerry O'Connor, fine musician, not my cup of tea. McGoldrick, started on the bodhran, realised he would never be as good as me, and took up the flute.
But they can play at my session, as long as O'Connor does not insist on playing that "cajun" stuff all night.
And you may not have said certain things, I just happen to be a mind reader, yet another of my unlimited talents.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I think, Micky, you have one very good friend who is not shy of giving you some very good advice, and you have worn that advice very honestly. No need to be red faced. Good on you. I really like your attitude to The Music. I think there may well be quite a few on here who play nothing else and share your views. You are most welcome in my little bit of cyberspace. I hope I was not tooooo unkind. Please continue to post your interesting stuff here. Welcome!
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I think those that have a go at Mickey see a bit of themselves in the two eejits he's talking about.
That's what i think.
# Posted on October 21st 2007 by BegF
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I hope I don't missquote micky finn ,But these
newcomers find it hard to learn about sessions .If you didn't grow up with the music how do you find out what these unwritten rules/manners are ,Ive seen it on lots of occassions when musicians get upset because of newcomers yet no one explains the problem they just create an atmosphere . Its great when a seasoned musician explains the entry mistakes people make. This is the only way to stomp it out.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Saint
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Absolutely right, Eddie. How many sessions have we seen at which the newcomer is viewed with suspicion/treated as a pariah before they've been given half a chance! It's a common moan but it isn't without some substance.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I'd give my right arm to be labelled a purist - a compliment rather than a slur in my opinion.
WhenI first started playing ITM I was lucky in that a local banjo player (an All-Ireland and All-Britain champion) encouraged me to play in the local sessions and eventually I settled into a great little session we had every Friday night.
Like Saint says, he had the patience to point out my mistakes, and that was invaluable for my playing. Newcomers need to play with players who are better than themselves in order to learn the music and gain an understanding of it.
Great last post Mick by the way. Get one of those types in your session and it can balls the whole thing up.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Peace and much love to all. We only have Mickey's word that these two are eejits. They could possibly be saying the same thing about him, or even me.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Micky, I hope you’ll not stay away because of this teapot tsunami. Around here, there are chips on soulders, argument stalkers loaded for bear, and folks who compulsively over-parse the comments and find positions the author wouldn’t recognize. I wish we could all just give some benefit of doubt before drawing rapiers. A few civil questions might clarify the poster's intent and head off another pointless conflagration.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
What teapot tsunami?
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Fair enough BB but i for one take him at his word, as i do for everyone unless shown otherwise.
He has spoken his mind, he has served his 'time' in this game. Whether i agree with his viewpoint is not really relevant, after all I am not a pure drop kinda guy.
But i respect his position. If it were me he was talking about i would respect his opinion .I personally have found that 'respect' is the 'big word' in life, I offer it to all, for many reasons.
I have encountered situations like his, fortunately i am big and ugly enough not to be ignored. Others are not in the same position.My own suggestion would be some conflict mediation, a meeting on neutral ground with a neutral mediator.
Who's session is it? anyone talked to the landlord? what do the 'punters' think of it all? the other players? the landlord?
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
While completely agreeing with Mr. Finn's sentiment it reminded me of a post I made where I was attempting to slag CCE in a very light hearted way and bumping into somebody in the pub the next day who had read my post and was totally insulted and p*ssed off, she is heavily into CCE but the last person I would have pegged to be reading this website. So there you go. Well said Mickey, there are far too many people out there pontificating about the music. The real danger is in places abroad, like Canada or New Zealand for example, where people who know absolutely nothing about the music and it's culture are having the wool pulled over their eyes by those who profess to be experts.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Patkiwi
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Whoa! I may know nothing about the music, but I dispute that Canada is "abroad".
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
thats a matter of your point of view oldstrings
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Fair enough BB but i for one take him at his word, as i do for everyone unless shown otherwise.
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by jig
Well, that's someone else who believes I am the best in the world.
Peace and love, brothers and sisters.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Well now BB even i can wonder; have you met every Bodhran player in the world? Hmmmm?
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
who would want to meet every bodhran player in the world? i've only met a handful and i regret it ;-D
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Whoaah!! Danger? ... in Canada??? Won't someone please, please help us?
We're like jig: we take evryone at their word unless we're shown otherwise.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by grego
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Grego, be on alert for wool-pulling terrorists posing as musical experts. I'm sure the US border is sealed, so they'll be stacking up on your side of the 49th parallel.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Now you've gone and upset ytiruces dnalemoh with your reference to "wool-pulling terrorists." Now we're going to see all kinds of sheep farmers rendered to Syria.
Of course you Montana cowboys will be celebrating - seen that in the movies!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by grego
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Well now BB even i can wonder; have you met every Bodhran player in the world? Hmmmm?
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by jig
Yes.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Grego, you do know where all those Montana cowboys came from right?
"Butte, Montana: Ireland's Fifth Province"
http://www.butteamerica.com/birish.htm
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
BB, I was under the impression that there were only three bodhran players in the world worthy of the name. One's in Ireland, another one's dead, and I've forgotten the name of the third.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Correct Lazy hound. Me in Ireland, the late one, but I didn't know there was another.
This sounds like that John Wayne Film. Was it Rio Bravo where they are talking about gunslingers.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Ah, senility strikes. How could I forget "El Dorado".
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
It is easy to have met every bodhran player in the world. There are only three of them.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Me, Vinny and.............?
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Saint?
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Actually does anyone scorn purists? I mean, i thought it was the other way round...
When the spacey synth starts,......
# Posted on October 24th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I loved this thread.It is far from being resolved!The Irish language is almost lost and the form of music played in the island of Ireland will follow.Quickly it is being merged into a modern genre by players who will never have known what traditional music was.Presently players are turning up at sessions with their aresnal of tunes and when they recoginize one they dive in.They do not play along with other musicians.I do not mean speed!! they do not use the same phrases.I doubt if the contributers here will be able to follow this.When I join in with other musicians I listen to them and try to compliment how they are playing.If I cant play with the music i stay out and listen.I dont like others to hijac a tune and disruptthe phrasing.I can pardon a fool but it beggars belief how many they number.They all believe they know something about Irish music.They will never listen to anyone but themselves treating irish music like some kinda comfort food.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by infiddle
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
The Irish Language is not almost lost. That is simply ignoring the facts on the ground. Fair enough the number of Irish speakers is dwarfed by the number of English speakers, but that is not , to my mind relevant.
In reference to your point about phrasing. that has 2 aspects, Listening , If they don't listen then how can they play sympathetically, and attitude. If they think'' this is how the tune is, and should be played'' then once again they will only have there one way of playing the tune.
But remember, it is a two way thing, The fine art is to be able to adapt to any situation, flexibility .
But in the mass sessions i see there does seem to be a bluring of lines, everyone just doing their thing and it all can be a bit messy.
But Phillip, can you suggest any practical remedy's for the problems you describe?
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
The Irish language *is* almost lost, jig. That *is* the "facts on the ground". The number of speakers in both relative and absolute terms is definitely relevant to anyone concerned with the revitalisation of the language whether they be government official, linguist, teacher or whatever, although of course the number of speakers is only part of the story. The push to reinstate Irish as a national language from the top down has failed. Fortunately the government is now more progressive in its outlook and has recently been implementing policies that might just give the language a chance if everyone pulls together and cooperates to save it. The downside is that there are people like you out there who have an attitude of "it's not almost lost". If everyone took that attitude, there's no hope for the language. I'm not trying to guilt trip you or have a go at you here. I'm just telling it like it is. You have to do your bit too.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I don't think it can or will be resolved.Music is funded and supported by commerce and no longer the peoples natural entertainment.Competions will kill the soul of the music also.The music was nurtured over the years not by ego but by being a simple social function.Now and again individualls have put themselves forward as maestros which again took awayfrom the tradition.The future now is that universites will decide what the music is.These experts have been appointed in the first instance by whom?"masters"or preformers?
Iam studing in the old university of the session.Perhaps I have learned how to listen but arround us are players that are unaware listening is part of playing.In the past musicians spoke little as they played but we had gumption to know to listen.Todays fools will talk ad nausea play worse and expect all to praise their ability.Traditional music's function is changed but not for me and I hope many more.
.The answer is to let them know In te words of the late Tommy Mcguire of Belfast "They know **** all about traditional music"
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by infiddle
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
"Music ... no longer the peoples natural entertainment"
I take exception to that.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by grego
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
But dow, so many of my friend are fluent Irish speakers. Even my ex wife who comes from new york,and has no Irish blood what so ever speaks Irish.
It may be a minority activity, but around here, and we are not even in the gaeltacht , i regularly hear it spoken. Its not going away.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
There are more and more people speaking Irish outside of the Gaeltacht now, especially amongst the middle classes. Even here in Sydney - about as far away from the Gaeltacht as you can possibly get - there are a few fluent speakers who really care about the language. But whilst that's going on, the language is declining in the Gaeltacht areas where Irish should be transmitted as a mother tongue from generation to generation. Unfortunately it's this link that's seriously under threat. It doesn't many how many people there are out there like your ex wife, and it doesn't matter how many thousands of school kids you try and teach it to as a 2nd language, if there's no community of speakers there to maintain cultural continuity, then the language dies. Fortunately the government has realised this, and these new government initiatives are sensibly targeting the Gaeltacht areas and providing incentives and rewards for Irish-speaking families. Hopefully it won't have been too late.
Getting back to the music: it's a bit silly to compare the endangerment of the Irish language with what's happening to trad music. Even if trad music as it is now died a death, it would be fairly easy to revive it in the future. Much more difficult to revive a dead language. They did it with Hebrew, but have failed with so many others...
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
it doesn't "matter" how many etc. - sorry
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Languages die all the time.I hope Irish can survive.Times change but if we don't know what what we have is we will lose it.Irish music has had the patronage of the people in small hamlets and parishes throughout this country and abroad.It is now a commodity for sale on disc.These discs are the scourse material for the future generations.Mike Finn and others keep the music alive in it's traditional setting are sidelined .Their music is lost as new musicians turn out more c.d.s based on music from c.d.s.Don't scorn purism .Genuine interest in and love of traditional music .is the key to its survival.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by infiddle
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
On a tangent again: the other day I was just reading about this Amerindian language that currently only has one speaker left - an elderly woman. Can you imagine being that woman, having nobody else to talk to in your mother tongue? When she dies she'll take her language with her. So sad...
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Micky fair play to you. In the past ten years I have never seen so many self appointed experts and with Phds too some not even from this country. The majority of music discussed is commercial traditional music. I too came from a family that played traditional music for generations. What we have left for the most part is a souless, ego ridden music controlled by clicks going under theguise of Irish traditional music. When the bubble bursts we will then see who is left to pick up the peices
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by brians
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I'm relaly enjoying the series on trad music on TG4 (http://www.tg4.ie/ follow the "web tv" menu for a wonderful half-hour program on the music of Clare). Partly because much of the audio is spoken Irish.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Which country is that, brians, so I know whether to be offended or not?
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by grego
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Though I never got a Phd, so maybe I'm okay.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by grego
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
tat, i tried following that link but... any more helpfull directions?
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Oops, yeah, the program is well hidden.
) for pointing this series out to me.
On the TG4 main page, click on "web tv" in the upper menu, to the left.
Then click on "web tv" again on the new screen.
On the next screen, go to the green menu box on the left and click on Ceol Cartlann.
This opens an archive of shows, most around a half hour long (with commercials (that are often hilarious))—they’re all worth watching.
For the show on Co. Clare music, click “play” on Canuinti Ceol 21/10/2007. It's a brilliant intro to the music, including a clip of Willie Clancy playing the pipes, and Micho Russell making the most of a tune on the street in Doolin.
Thansk to Larry (you know who you are
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
thanks tat, enjoyed that. will watch them all .
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I'm with Micky.
People mean various things by "Purism".
I respect Davy Spillane & Sharon Shannon as exceptionally talented musicians. I do not particularly care for the genre that either has developed. Thus is provided one definition of "Purism". I prefer my music neat - within the tradition, & all of its wonderful subtlety. Davy & Sharon are mesmeric when they play within the tradition. Let there be no doubt - both have a profound understanding of the tradition.
Then there's "Purist" as yelled by people who do not understand the music, but want to get in on the act. I have no time for this at all. It is rude, discourteous, ignorant and lazy. I doubt that such people typically have much music in them, at all. What is it that they hear, when they play ? When told by people who have been playing for decades, or reared in the tradition, or both, that they are massacring the music, what happens ? They yell "Purist" as though it were an insult . Then along come defenders, citing Davy Spillane.... Oh Lord.
It happens on occasion that new instruments get adopted in to the mainstream tradition. The most recent example is the bouzouki. Terrific addition - & gratitude primarily due to Johnny Moynihan & of course Donal Lunny. But, folks, anyone who would wish to extend the argument to encompass clarinets, saxophones, Alpine horns or didgeridoos does not understand why such is not possible. This does not reflect "Purism" , but rather knowledge of the music. Folks who want to do whatever they wish on the said instruments are of course quite free to do so. Please, folks who so wish, do not do so at traditional sessions.
Let me also make a further point, VERY strongly. It is the purists who go to the greatest lengths to make the music accessible to novice players. Do you find many session-crashers, hi-jackers or showboaters giving over evenings & Saturday afternoons to teach without payment ? I doubt it. Do you find them lending instruments to promising kids ? Hardly. I know some so-called purists - by no means wealthy themselves - who have actually bought good instruments for kids whose parents could not afford them. Personally, I would like to hear less whinging about "Purism" in sessions, and see more people coming to lessons. That which you get out of most things in life is a precise function of that which you put in.
Purists, who keep the tradition alive, are a much-maligned breed.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Wow, someone on thesession.org who speaks sense. You make me want to cry with joy.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
Last night I was at a session where I only listened.
I did not play. I believe it does qualify as pure & true to the Irish Session Tradition.
I also know that a few of those musicians attend sessions which are more of a mix; with definitely nontraditional instruments.
& some of the musicians hold sessions which are ~ should I say 'closed sessions' ? Perhaps the most pure of all.
With all those options it is hard to imagine that one is threatened by the other.
Is it fair to suggest that attempts to suppress music which is deemed unfavorable might not be wise?
That door swings both directions.
& please someone ~ Where is that wonderful thesession.org humor?
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Those who scorn "purism"...
I have been playing various instruments since I wasfive years old. I played in the sessions in McNeil's during the HebFest this year, and thoroghly enjoyed it, everyone was welcoming and nice about the fact I had never played in a session before.
I have to say after eading several articles on this forum, I have been well put off playing in sessions basically because of some of the snobby self-centred attitudes of some people on here.
I was hoping to start attending more sessions because I learnt so much the last time.
Have to say I am having second thoughts now. Thanks guys, what a great help you have been.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by TheBlueBandana