I'm going to set the cat among the pidgeons.......I play scottish music(and Irish) but find the Scottish stuff much more satisfying and I think it basically has far more variety and 'meat' than Irish music,also it is harder to play because a lot of the pipe tunes are in the key of 'A' (Bb) on the pipes......what does anybody think?
Here's one point: I think Scottish tunes seem more varied to you because you are more familiar with them. Any musical tradition sounds samey till you get on intimate terms with it.
Are you claiming that it's 'more satisfying' *because* it is harder to play, or is that a separate and coincidental statement? If you're saying it's harder to play and therefore obviously superior, I don't think that's going to go down very well. Playing in an awkward key, for historical reasons, might add a certain slant to the tunes but it doesn't mean the music is 'better'...
It could also lead to a deep discussion about the influence Scottish music has on Irish, and vice versa. I'd just be an interested observer on such a discussion, not having the detailed knowledge.
I enjoy Scottish and Irish music, mainly because of my origins, but also because many fiddlers who are an inspiration to me may play the Scottish style of playing, but play many Irish tunes as well, and vice versa with many Irish fiddlers I know. Some here may prefer Irish music more and some Scottish more, but I agree with what has been said about Scottish music not being better, just different, and I think all in all, both have pretty positive influences on each other.
I think Trevor has a positive point regarding where this discussion could go. Rather than which you prefer Irish or Scottish, why not expand on the influences or the difference in style. I know and hear the difference but can anyone verbalize what they are. Does Scottish music have regional styles like Irish music? I would find input on those points interesting.
We had a very fun discussion about this (largely "fun" because of Kerri) at http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/176 way back in 2001 -- Kerri's story of her (Scottish) fiddle teacher June explaining the diff between Irish and Scottish in general shouldn't be missed!
I think it is perhaps true to say that Scottish 'traditional' music is more multi-layered than its Irish counterpart - what I mean by that is, it has been subjected to a greater number of different influences at specific times in hidstory. Irish music, until quite recently, has existed in relative isolation, and those external influences which *have* reached it have tended to be absorbed and assimilated into the existing tradition rather than significantly changed it.
Scottish music has a vast and varied repertoire of tunes, which could easily compete with the Irish repertoire. But I have found that the music played nowadays in Scottish sessions suffers (or benefits, depending on your opinion) for a high degree of eclecticism - perhaps a reaction against the very strict, classical influenced style of music popularised by William Marshall and the 18th century and James Scott Skinner in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Although I like many Scottish tunes, when it comes to traditional music and the way it is played today. my preference is for Irish music - when I play Scottish tunes, I probably play them in something resembling an Irish style (although I'm no more Irish than Saddam Hussein).
Is it digressing too far from an already rather unfocused thread to comment on the difference in degrees of formality in the names ascribed by both traditions to the same tunes? The rather sassy 'Miss McLeod's' in Ireland can weigh in as a terribly stuffy 'Major William MacDonald's Lament on the Departure of Miss Sheila MacLeod of Uist' in Scotland.' (apologies to all Scots for getting the name of that totally wrong, but you catch my drift I hope). And in the same vein, an archaic rendering of a name such as Domhniaill would, in the realm of the Celtic Tiger, be downsized to a leaner, more competitive and user friendly 'Donal'!
"Gaelic spellings as archaic renderings that should be Anglicized in order to make them more competitive and user friendly" - now there's a statement that could be taken the wrong way if ever I saw one! Anyway, I thought it was "Daniel" not "Donal" which is Domhnaill with one "i". Danny, is it a made-up name, and is it Scottish or Irish?
By the way, "Miss McLeod" could've come from anywhere. "Mrs MacLeod of Raasay" not only spells the "Mac" the Scottish way, but even narrows it down to the one tiny island off the west coast. How interesting is that? The original Scottish title (+ key, and order of parts) gets my vote any day
Dow, I'm only trying to pull Danny's leg, personally I prefer the restrained formality of those extended Scottish titles, all I want to hear is why people think that difference in their naming has persisted.
I should add that I like some Irish music and some Scottish music, but only good Irish music and good Scottish music! One isn't better than the other, and it all boils down to personal taste in the end. I notice bb hasn't said anything yet - she springs to mind as being a self-professed "non-fan" of Scottish music. Where are you lurking bb?
I would also love this discussion to turn into one about the influences of one on the other, perhaps where the dance forms come from and how they developed into their modern form. Is there anyone here who knows all this stuff? If so, please take the time to tell us what you know as it would be much appreciated.
Hi Dow..While not on a level with your modes discussion in the jazz thread the following site gives a bit of jig history. It would be nice to see something a bit more detailed from somebody.
Bob http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3jig.htm
You can just call me Danny (as you know)! When I initially logged on with my unspellable nom de plume, I was being deliberately ironic - but have in the process created a frankenstein's monster as I often forget how to spell it myself!
But, Paul, me old mate, sorry to contradict you on two counts here - first, I was under the impression that of the two Gaelic sisters Irish Gaelic was the one with more convoluted spelling, and words with extra letters from previous words to qualify them, but the spelling still internally consistent, whereas Scots Gaelic spelling has been more standardised and simplified.
Secondly, I can think of one tune that goes against the rule which you intimated (but which I in general concur with) - The Maid Behind The Bar is the pedantic Irish title of the reel known in Scotland as The Barmaid.
Two small asides: I've been told that the Donegal Gaeltacht is closer to Scots Gaelic than it is to the other Irish Gaeltachts - true or false?
If so, it follows the same trend as Donegal music and its relationship to other Irish styles and Scottish music.....just a thought.
Also, does Gaelic have, and use much, the Subjunctive mood?
Right. Next. I agree in some ways with David's multi-layeredness theory of Scottish music, but Irish also has many sides to it. And there are regional differences in Scottish Music (or, rather, were, but are being revitalised). These are different to the Irish model, which seems to vary on a county basis (in Irish life in general, I have perceived, that greater emphasis is placed on the county as a geopolitical/cultural unit, than in Scotland - whoever heard of a Clackmannanshire piping style?) The Scottish regional styles also have different instrumental and vocal traditions. From my limited encounters these are broadly:
Shetland - fiddle and piano accordion, mostly fiddle, with a huge body of tunes, to rival any county in Ireland. Orkney also has a thriving parallel tradition, possibly overshadowed by her Viking sister to the North.
The Western Isles have a vast treasure of Gaelic songs, of huge varieties, whalking songs, laments, etc. and also is the source of many pipe tunes.
There is a distinctive Highland fiddle style, which many people (often fiddle players) mistake as being 'The' Scottish traditional music.(This Parallels the ubiquitous Sligo style in Irish Music). It's got lots of what Beethoven referred to as 'Snap'. Often the way the sets are put together are: Lament/Slow Air, then/or Strathspey, then a reel maybe two, reels usually just played twice each. A Strathspey will be played much more syncopated than a Donegal Highland. Reels are generally very tonally colourful, to the extent that they're difficult to remember and don't often see the light of day in a session (that's probably just me.)
Then, if you're still with me on this whirlwind musical tour of my native Alba, there is the Bothy music from Buchan and the rest of the North East - that's a whole swathe of sickle-shaped fertile arable territory going from Moray, through Aberdeenshire, all the way down to Angus and Dundee. This is the land of Jimmy MacBeath, the bothy ballads and Jimmy Shand. Probably what used to be thought of as Scottish Music. Easily hijackable, but great stuff. Jimmy Mac Beath singing "The Muckin' O' Geordies Byre" on that The Muckle Sangs collection (I think) is timeless genius, particularly since he and the audience all seemed to have a ta'en a wee dram or twa.
The central industrial belt of Glasgow through to Edinburgh doesn't retain any styles that I'm aware of, but I know of some lovely Glasgow songs, and I'm sure there are the same on the East coast. There's the tune The Floo'ers O' Edinburgh, most often referred to by its English title.
Then there's Borders music. Very interesting stuff, and often sounding akin to the music of their southern neighbours, the Northumbrians. Similar sounds baith sides o' the Tweed.
Composers? as David said, Scott Skinner, but he was a bit wierd, trying to elevate himself to classical status, to the detriment of the tradition of which he was the main man at the time.
There was also Niel Gow and other Gows. One composer who eclipsed his own achievements as a composer by his other endeavours was... Robert Burns. Often tunes are composed by local maestros as proof of their virtuosity, thus the tradition is constantly being replenished. There is also a thriving harp tradition, of which I know little, the accordions are of the piano variety, or 3 and 4-row Shand Marino machines, with tuning so wet you have to wear a nappy under your kilt, and of course there's the Pipes - hugely influential, yet much derided. A fair number of tunes now played in Irish sessions started life as Scottish pipe tunes. I've met a number of former pipers who are now fiendishly brilliant blackwood flute players. My knowledge of the pipes, big and small and chamber, is very poor so someone else can tell that story.
Incidentally, the musical form, the Scottische, a dance like a slow hornpipe, but still heavily accented, according to an authority whom I know and trust, is not Scottish at all. In fact no-one is sure of its origins. Scottisches are played in the Languedoc and other parts of Southern France, Northern Italy and Southern Germany, but not Scotland!
I tried working out the Irish form of "Trevor" once. I don't know whether I got it right but I soon ran out of letters, and I doubt whether I'd be able to spell it correctly twice in succession
I'm not so familiar with this topic, but I think many Scottish tunes developed from the song melodies including mouth music, while Irish tunes are mostly instrumental. Of course, some Scottish tunes were instrumentally well-refined before being exported to Ireland, but the singing of Mary Jane Lamond always strengthens my conviction that the simplicity and a bit repetitive character of Scottish tunes derive from the vocal music.
My band is trad scottish accordion & fiddle dance band BUT we play as much ITM as the band enjoy it - you can play both and keep both traditions separate!
Wet tuning is that "musette" type sound isn't it? The sound you get on an accordion when the reeds for each note have been tuned to frequencies that are slightly different. To say that you need a nappy under your kilt is a very interesting and funny metaphor type thing - Danny did you just think of that? I prefer dry tuning myself...
Yes, but Danny, you've kind of spoiled that whole sexy, manly, kilt idea now...
Dow, that sounds like the definition of *bad* tuning... but I think I know the kind of sound you mean. Fuzzy as opposed to crisp? And what does it mean, 'tuned to frequencies that are slightly different'? Can you elaborate?
Hi Helen - I used to have a Kilt, a proper one, but the moths got it.
Dow has it about right. Yes Dow, I'm afraid my imagination was in overdrive when I came up with that one. The way I understand it is that each note on the box has at least two reeds, and often many more. Each can be tuned, and to achieve a dry sound, they are tuned to frequencies very close to one another, but not exactly equal, as then you'd get a concertina sound, which I believe is the pure note produced by the reed (not knocking the concertina - I love the sound of it, but the box is the box, so has to sound as such, ie have some box 'Character'.)
The wet sound, which I find in the correct hands, nearly as sexy as the dry, is achieved, quite obviously now, by the converse, ie, they can be tuned to frequencies getting further and further apart. The big "Irish" Paolo Soprani's, the classic 2-row B/C's you hear played by older or Comhaltas players, are kind of Wet with outbursts of rain imminent.
The way the Scottish players like their Shand Marino's tuned, according to Mr. Allodi (our local, and I think, one of the best in UK, box retailers and repairers), is somewhere between a quarter to an eighth of a tone total range - constant drizzle with occasional storms.
The Point Spread Function of the wet system is several times that of the more confocal Dry system, thus greater note resolution is achieved by the dry, especially when fast playing speed is required, as the tonal image is deconvolved at source.
Comprendes?
I forgot to say, wrt my last post, although I'm a Scot, I've been around Irish music so long that I gravitate naturally toward it, but have 'explored' Scottish music sufficiently to know my way round and still love it. If asked which I prefer of either, my anwer would be:
Ayther,
but I play Irish music, as that's what I know best. There's lots of exciting stuff now happening in Scottish music, not all of which I personally like, but which must be making waves on the 'World Music' scene.
So, using estate agent speak, when they tell me 'East Dulwich is the new Fulham', I could posit:
"Scotland is the new Ireland!?!"
An EIGHTH of a tone?! I never realised people took it to such an extreme.
I don't think I could cope with rain like that. I didn't move oot tae Australia fer nowt ye knaa!
Regarding this 8th tone tuning, there's a comparison with the honky-tonk piano tuning where one of the two or three strings that each hammer strikes (except in the lowest register where it's one string per note) is tuned very slightly off pitch. I don't know exactly how much off, but 8th or 10th seems about right. I think you can get honky-tonk on midi and certainly on many electronic keyboards. Now do mandolin players have any views on this matter
I was just experimenting with 'wet' tuning on my mandolin yesterday. Interesting, but I don't think it'll catch on. Having said that, listen to Father O'Keefe's banjo-mandolin on 'Paddy in the Smoke'.
The idea of wet tuning is that, the difference between the two frequencies produces a 'beat' frequency - the pulsating sound which disappears when two strings are tuned in perfect unison. This 'beat' gives a vibrato effect.
Yeah, the "beat" frequency that David refers to is borne out of sound wave interference. Do you ever see a TV on TV?. Those lines going down the screen are the visual equivalent of the "wet" accordion sound, because the picture refresh on your TV and the one you can see on your TV are out of "phase", they're not exactly in step with each other. To go off at a slight tangent, you should always set your monitor refresh rate to higher than about 60 refreshes per sec (Hz) as this is the same as the frequency of typical office lights; the interference between the two causes eye strain. God I'm boring myself to sleep here. No wonder, it's 10 to 2 in the morning, I'm just back from a session and I'm knackered. Goodnight! O
To answer Trevor's question about using tuning mandolins this way, the general consensus seems to be that it doesn't really work because of the mandolin's lack of sustain. There's a big difference between a long, sustained note from a box in wet tuning and a quickly decaying plucked note on an mandolin tuned in that manner.
As Gra5ity said, most mandolins seem to assume this dissonance in the string pairs naturally, especially if the player is too lazy to tune often
Don't take up the lute unless you've got all the time in the world and no social life! A lute can have from 7 - 13 courses (or pairs of strings, except for the highest one) and I have been assured by a professional lutenist that you'll probably spend more time tuning the damn thing than playing it.
Gra5ity, many years ago my guitar teacher tried to get me to learn the lute, which was when I met the aforesaid lutenist who gave me that advice about tuning. He also told me about the moveable frets and how madness lurked just round the corner if you messed around with them too much!
I think the lute is a lovely instrument IF it's in tune, in the right hands, and playing music of its period, preferably in an oak-panelled dining hall in an Elizabethan manor house. It's not exactly an itm instrument!
Apparently, so I've been told, today if you want to play lute music of the period you might just as well use a classical guitar in D tuning, and that will give you most of the lute music repertoire, certainly the earlier stuff; and if you use a 7-course classical guitar, with a string below the low E, then you'll be able to play nearly everything in the lute repertoire without rearrangement.
Oh yes Trevor, In my classical guitar daze I navigated a bunch of John Dowland, Robert Johnson (NOT the bluesman) and Francis Cutting dances, fantasies and other forms in a "drop D" tuning.
Likewise works of Spanish masters of the period sit well with the G string tuned down to F#. I guess this converts the vihuela tabulature faithfully.
I'm still not satisfied with my understanding of an "Eight of a tone." The Mando-Caf link above was thought provoking but not definitive. I finally googled something of the sort and found the following link came the closest to quantifying the letter name notes:
Yes, it's frightfuly math intensive (4 me) and I'm not about to convert all those ratios to "real" numbers only to divide by .125 Hz and then struggle to ACTUALLY tune my mandolin in a fashion which yeilds a sub-standard, albeit academically interesting, intonation.
Any number crunchers or theory wizards out there care to simplify this?
scottish traditional music
scottish traditional music
I'm going to set the cat among the pidgeons.......I play scottish music(and Irish) but find the Scottish stuff much more satisfying and I think it basically has far more variety and 'meat' than Irish music,also it is harder to play because a lot of the pipe tunes are in the key of 'A' (Bb) on the pipes......what does anybody think?
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by duiseal
Re: scottish traditional music
Ooh, you devil you!
Here's one point: I think Scottish tunes seem more varied to you because you are more familiar with them. Any musical tradition sounds samey till you get on intimate terms with it.
Are you claiming that it's 'more satisfying' *because* it is harder to play, or is that a separate and coincidental statement? If you're saying it's harder to play and therefore obviously superior, I don't think that's going to go down very well. Playing in an awkward key, for historical reasons, might add a certain slant to the tunes but it doesn't mean the music is 'better'...
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by Nell
Re: scottish traditional music
It's not better, just different. What I think is that your statement is going to lead to a pretty pointless discussion.
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by Kenny
Re: scottish traditional music
I prefer Irish music, 'cos THAT's why. Nyahh Nyahh Ni Nyahh Nyahh
Con
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: scottish traditional music
It could also lead to a deep discussion about the influence Scottish music has on Irish, and vice versa. I'd just be an interested observer on such a discussion, not having the detailed knowledge.
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: scottish traditional music
Shouldn't there be a tune called "Cat among the pigeons"? If there is, I can't find it in the usual sources - thesession.org, JC, HN, etc.
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: scottish traditional music
A "disussion grenade", you pull the pin & say some baseless inflamatory garbage than watch people fight about it. Really great move!!
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by B Rad
Re: scottish traditional music
I think Con
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Nell
Brad, I vote that we defuse the discussion grenade, by refusing to squabble about it. Simple...
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Nell
Re: scottish traditional music
here here
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by B Rad
Re: scottish traditional music
I like Sc
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: scottish traditional music
The Cat Among the Pigeons is part of a set that goes with The Gate that Ate the Candle.
So a man on telly said.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: scottish traditional music
I enjoy Scottish and Irish music, mainly because of my origins, but also because many fiddlers who are an inspiration to me may play the Scottish style of playing, but play many Irish tunes as well, and vice versa with many Irish fiddlers I know. Some here may prefer Irish music more and some Scottish more, but I agree with what has been said about Scottish music not being better, just different, and I think all in all, both have pretty positive influences on each other.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by BluFiddle
Re: scottish traditional music
I think Trevor has a positive point regarding where this discussion could go. Rather than which you prefer Irish or Scottish, why not expand on the influences or the difference in style. I know and hear the difference but can anyone verbalize what they are. Does Scottish music have regional styles like Irish music? I would find input on those points interesting.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by deblittle
Re: scottish traditional music
We had a very fun discussion about this (largely "fun" because of Kerri) at http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/176 way back in 2001 -- Kerri's story of her (Scottish) fiddle teacher June explaining the diff between Irish and Scottish in general shouldn't be missed!
Zina
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: scottish traditional music
I think it is perhaps true to say that Scottish 'traditional' music is more multi-layered than its Irish counterpart - what I mean by that is, it has been subjected to a greater number of different influences at specific times in hidstory. Irish music, until quite recently, has existed in relative isolation, and those external influences which *have* reached it have tended to be absorbed and assimilated into the existing tradition rather than significantly changed it.
Scottish music has a vast and varied repertoire of tunes, which could easily compete with the Irish repertoire. But I have found that the music played nowadays in Scottish sessions suffers (or benefits, depending on your opinion) for a high degree of eclecticism - perhaps a reaction against the very strict, classical influenced style of music popularised by William Marshall and the 18th century and James Scott Skinner in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Although I like many Scottish tunes, when it comes to traditional music and the way it is played today. my preference is for Irish music - when I play Scottish tunes, I probably play them in something resembling an Irish style (although I'm no more Irish than Saddam Hussein).
Why?
Because I do.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: scottish traditional music
Is it digressing too far from an already rather unfocused thread to comment on the difference in degrees of formality in the names ascribed by both traditions to the same tunes? The rather sassy 'Miss McLeod's' in Ireland can weigh in as a terribly stuffy 'Major William MacDonald's Lament on the Departure of Miss Sheila MacLeod of Uist' in Scotland.' (apologies to all Scots for getting the name of that totally wrong, but you catch my drift I hope). And in the same vein, an archaic rendering of a name such as Domhniaill would, in the realm of the Celtic Tiger, be downsized to a leaner, more competitive and user friendly 'Donal'!
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by sergeant fox
Re: scottish traditional music
aww.... kerri.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by searai
Re: scottish traditional music
"Gaelic spellings as archaic renderings that should be Anglicized in order to make them more competitive and user friendly" - now there's a statement that could be taken the wrong way if ever I saw one! Anyway, I thought it was "Daniel" not "Donal" which is Domhnaill with one "i". Danny, is it a made-up name, and is it Scottish or Irish?
By the way, "Miss McLeod" could've come from anywhere. "Mrs MacLeod of Raasay" not only spells the "Mac" the Scottish way, but even narrows it down to the one tiny island off the west coast. How interesting is that? The original Scottish title (+ key, and order of parts) gets my vote any day
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: scottish traditional music
Dow, I'm only trying to pull Danny's leg, personally I prefer the restrained formality of those extended Scottish titles, all I want to hear is why people think that difference in their naming has persisted.
Shleep tight folks.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by sergeant fox
Re: scottish traditional music
I should add that I like some Irish music and some Scottish music, but only good Irish music and good Scottish music! One isn't better than the other, and it all boils down to personal taste in the end. I notice bb hasn't said anything yet - she springs to mind as being a self-professed "non-fan" of Scottish music. Where are you lurking bb?
I would also love this discussion to turn into one about the influences of one on the other, perhaps where the dance forms come from and how they developed into their modern form. Is there anyone here who knows all this stuff? If so, please take the time to tell us what you know as it would be much appreciated.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Dr. Dow
PS Paul I knew you were just being silly because it's the sort of piss-taking thing I would have said myself
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: scottish traditional music
Hi Dow..While not on a level with your modes discussion in the jazz thread the following site gives a bit of jig history. It would be nice to see something a bit more detailed from somebody.
Bob
http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3jig.htm
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by bmcivor
Re: scottish traditional music
You can just call me Danny (as you know)! When I initially logged on with my unspellable nom de plume, I was being deliberately ironic - but have in the process created a frankenstein's monster as I often forget how to spell it myself!
But, Paul, me old mate, sorry to contradict you on two counts here - first, I was under the impression that of the two Gaelic sisters Irish Gaelic was the one with more convoluted spelling, and words with extra letters from previous words to qualify them, but the spelling still internally consistent, whereas Scots Gaelic spelling has been more standardised and simplified.
Secondly, I can think of one tune that goes against the rule which you intimated (but which I in general concur with) - The Maid Behind The Bar is the pedantic Irish title of the reel known in Scotland as The Barmaid.
Two small asides: I've been told that the Donegal Gaeltacht is closer to Scots Gaelic than it is to the other Irish Gaeltachts - true or false?
If so, it follows the same trend as Donegal music and its relationship to other Irish styles and Scottish music.....just a thought.
Also, does Gaelic have, and use much, the Subjunctive mood?
Right. Next. I agree in some ways with David's multi-layeredness theory of Scottish music, but Irish also has many sides to it. And there are regional differences in Scottish Music (or, rather, were, but are being revitalised). These are different to the Irish model, which seems to vary on a county basis (in Irish life in general, I have perceived, that greater emphasis is placed on the county as a geopolitical/cultural unit, than in Scotland - whoever heard of a Clackmannanshire piping style?) The Scottish regional styles also have different instrumental and vocal traditions. From my limited encounters these are broadly:
Shetland - fiddle and piano accordion, mostly fiddle, with a huge body of tunes, to rival any county in Ireland. Orkney also has a thriving parallel tradition, possibly overshadowed by her Viking sister to the North.
The Western Isles have a vast treasure of Gaelic songs, of huge varieties, whalking songs, laments, etc. and also is the source of many pipe tunes.
There is a distinctive Highland fiddle style, which many people (often fiddle players) mistake as being 'The' Scottish traditional music.(This Parallels the ubiquitous Sligo style in Irish Music). It's got lots of what Beethoven referred to as 'Snap'. Often the way the sets are put together are: Lament/Slow Air, then/or Strathspey, then a reel maybe two, reels usually just played twice each. A Strathspey will be played much more syncopated than a Donegal Highland. Reels are generally very tonally colourful, to the extent that they're difficult to remember and don't often see the light of day in a session (that's probably just me.)
Then, if you're still with me on this whirlwind musical tour of my native Alba, there is the Bothy music from Buchan and the rest of the North East - that's a whole swathe of sickle-shaped fertile arable territory going from Moray, through Aberdeenshire, all the way down to Angus and Dundee. This is the land of Jimmy MacBeath, the bothy ballads and Jimmy Shand. Probably what used to be thought of as Scottish Music. Easily hijackable, but great stuff. Jimmy Mac Beath singing "The Muckin' O' Geordies Byre" on that The Muckle Sangs collection (I think) is timeless genius, particularly since he and the audience all seemed to have a ta'en a wee dram or twa.
The central industrial belt of Glasgow through to Edinburgh doesn't retain any styles that I'm aware of, but I know of some lovely Glasgow songs, and I'm sure there are the same on the East coast. There's the tune The Floo'ers O' Edinburgh, most often referred to by its English title.
Then there's Borders music. Very interesting stuff, and often sounding akin to the music of their southern neighbours, the Northumbrians. Similar sounds baith sides o' the Tweed.
Composers? as David said, Scott Skinner, but he was a bit wierd, trying to elevate himself to classical status, to the detriment of the tradition of which he was the main man at the time.
There was also Niel Gow and other Gows. One composer who eclipsed his own achievements as a composer by his other endeavours was... Robert Burns. Often tunes are composed by local maestros as proof of their virtuosity, thus the tradition is constantly being replenished. There is also a thriving harp tradition, of which I know little, the accordions are of the piano variety, or 3 and 4-row Shand Marino machines, with tuning so wet you have to wear a nappy under your kilt, and of course there's the Pipes - hugely influential, yet much derided. A fair number of tunes now played in Irish sessions started life as Scottish pipe tunes. I've met a number of former pipers who are now fiendishly brilliant blackwood flute players. My knowledge of the pipes, big and small and chamber, is very poor so someone else can tell that story.
Incidentally, the musical form, the Scottische, a dance like a slow hornpipe, but still heavily accented, according to an authority whom I know and trust, is not Scottish at all. In fact no-one is sure of its origins. Scottisches are played in the Languedoc and other parts of Southern France, Northern Italy and Southern Germany, but not Scotland!
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: scottish traditional music
I tried working out the Irish form of "Trevor" once. I don't know whether I got it right but I soon ran out of letters, and I doubt whether I'd be able to spell it correctly twice in succession
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: scottish traditional music
I'm not so familiar with this topic, but I think many Scottish tunes developed from the song melodies including mouth music, while Irish tunes are mostly instrumental. Of course, some Scottish tunes were instrumentally well-refined before being exported to Ireland, but the singing of Mary Jane Lamond always strengthens my conviction that the simplicity and a bit repetitive character of Scottish tunes derive from the vocal music.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by slainte
Re: scottish traditional music
Danny, what is wet tuning?
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Nell
Re: scottish traditional music
My band is trad scottish accordion & fiddle dance band BUT we play as much ITM as the band enjoy it - you can play both and keep both traditions separate!
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: scottish traditional music
Wet tuning is that "musette" type sound isn't it? The sound you get on an accordion when the reeds for each note have been tuned to frequencies that are slightly different. To say that you need a nappy under your kilt is a very interesting and funny metaphor type thing - Danny did you just think of that? I prefer dry tuning myself...
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: scottish traditional music
Yes, but Danny, you've kind of spoiled that whole sexy, manly, kilt idea now...
Dow, that sounds like the definition of *bad* tuning... but I think I know the kind of sound you mean. Fuzzy as opposed to crisp? And what does it mean, 'tuned to frequencies that are slightly different'? Can you elaborate?
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by Nell
Re: scottish traditional music
Hi Helen - I used to have a Kilt, a proper one, but the moths got it.
Dow has it about right. Yes Dow, I'm afraid my imagination was in overdrive when I came up with that one. The way I understand it is that each note on the box has at least two reeds, and often many more. Each can be tuned, and to achieve a dry sound, they are tuned to frequencies very close to one another, but not exactly equal, as then you'd get a concertina sound, which I believe is the pure note produced by the reed (not knocking the concertina - I love the sound of it, but the box is the box, so has to sound as such, ie have some box 'Character'.)
The wet sound, which I find in the correct hands, nearly as sexy as the dry, is achieved, quite obviously now, by the converse, ie, they can be tuned to frequencies getting further and further apart. The big "Irish" Paolo Soprani's, the classic 2-row B/C's you hear played by older or Comhaltas players, are kind of Wet with outbursts of rain imminent.
The way the Scottish players like their Shand Marino's tuned, according to Mr. Allodi (our local, and I think, one of the best in UK, box retailers and repairers), is somewhere between a quarter to an eighth of a tone total range - constant drizzle with occasional storms.
The Point Spread Function of the wet system is several times that of the more confocal Dry system, thus greater note resolution is achieved by the dry, especially when fast playing speed is required, as the tonal image is deconvolved at source.
Comprendes?
I forgot to say, wrt my last post, although I'm a Scot, I've been around Irish music so long that I gravitate naturally toward it, but have 'explored' Scottish music sufficiently to know my way round and still love it. If asked which I prefer of either, my anwer would be:
Ayther,
but I play Irish music, as that's what I know best. There's lots of exciting stuff now happening in Scottish music, not all of which I personally like, but which must be making waves on the 'World Music' scene.
So, using estate agent speak, when they tell me 'East Dulwich is the new Fulham', I could posit:
"Scotland is the new Ireland!?!"
Hoping this leads to further confusion,
Danny.
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: scottish traditional music
An EIGHTH of a tone?! I never realised people took it to such an extreme.
I don't think I could cope with rain like that. I didn't move oot tae Australia fer nowt ye knaa!
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: scottish traditional music
8th of a tone - I believe so.
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: scottish traditional music
Regarding this 8th tone tuning, there's a comparison with the honky-tonk piano tuning where one of the two or three strings that each hammer strikes (except in the lowest register where it's one string per note) is tuned very slightly off pitch. I don't know exactly how much off, but 8th or 10th seems about right. I think you can get honky-tonk on midi and certainly on many electronic keyboards. Now do mandolin players have any views on this matter
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Eighth of a tone
Well Trevor,
I just put a new set of strings on my my mandolin and they seem to find that elite dissonance all by themselves
Help me out here. If my first A string is at 440 what's my other A string vibrating at?
I could google it but my break is just about through.
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by Gra5ity
Re: scottish traditional music
I was just experimenting with 'wet' tuning on my mandolin yesterday. Interesting, but I don't think it'll catch on. Having said that, listen to Father O'Keefe's banjo-mandolin on 'Paddy in the Smoke'.
The idea of wet tuning is that, the difference between the two frequencies produces a 'beat' frequency - the pulsating sound which disappears when two strings are tuned in perfect unison. This 'beat' gives a vibrato effect.
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: scottish traditional music
Yeah, the "beat" frequency that David refers to is borne out of sound wave interference. Do you ever see a TV on TV?. Those lines going down the screen are the visual equivalent of the "wet" accordion sound, because the picture refresh on your TV and the one you can see on your TV are out of "phase", they're not exactly in step with each other. To go off at a slight tangent, you should always set your monitor refresh rate to higher than about 60 refreshes per sec (Hz) as this is the same as the frequency of typical office lights; the interference between the two causes eye strain. God I'm boring myself to sleep here. No wonder, it's 10 to 2 in the morning, I'm just back from a session and I'm knackered. Goodnight! O
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: scottish traditional music
There was a discussion at the Mandolin Cafe about tuning out of phase and beat tones, with some interesting posts.
http://mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=81f03b5c343f321f60654f9fb79256fc;act=ST;f=12;t=3748
To answer Trevor's question about using tuning mandolins this way, the general consensus seems to be that it doesn't really work because of the mandolin's lack of sustain. There's a big difference between a long, sustained note from a box in wet tuning and a quickly decaying plucked note on an mandolin tuned in that manner.
As Gra5ity said, most mandolins seem to assume this dissonance in the string pairs naturally, especially if the player is too lazy to tune often
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by RG
Re: scottish traditional music
Don't take up the lute unless you've got all the time in the world and no social life! A lute can have from 7 - 13 courses (or pairs of strings, except for the highest one) and I have been assured by a professional lutenist that you'll probably spend more time tuning the damn thing than playing it.
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: scottish traditional music
Hey Trevor,
What about those tuneable fretts? All the rage before equal temperment. Let's play this one in "D" the peoples key
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by Gra5ity
Re: scottish traditional music
Gra5ity, many years ago my guitar teacher tried to get me to learn the lute, which was when I met the aforesaid lutenist who gave me that advice about tuning. He also told me about the moveable frets and how madness lurked just round the corner if you messed around with them too much!
I think the lute is a lovely instrument IF it's in tune, in the right hands, and playing music of its period, preferably in an oak-panelled dining hall in an Elizabethan manor house. It's not exactly an itm instrument!
Apparently, so I've been told, today if you want to play lute music of the period you might just as well use a classical guitar in D tuning, and that will give you most of the lute music repertoire, certainly the earlier stuff; and if you use a 7-course classical guitar, with a string below the low E, then you'll be able to play nearly everything in the lute repertoire without rearrangement.
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: scottish traditional music
Oh yes Trevor, In my classical guitar daze I navigated a bunch of John Dowland, Robert Johnson (NOT the bluesman) and Francis Cutting dances, fantasies and other forms in a "drop D" tuning.
Likewise works of Spanish masters of the period sit well with the G string tuned down to F#. I guess this converts the vihuela tabulature faithfully.
I'm still not satisfied with my understanding of an "Eight of a tone." The Mando-Caf link above was thought provoking but not definitive. I finally googled something of the sort and found the following link came the closest to quantifying the letter name notes:
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae165.cfm
Yes, it's frightfuly math intensive (4 me) and I'm not about to convert all those ratios to "real" numbers only to divide by .125 Hz and then struggle to ACTUALLY tune my mandolin in a fashion which yeilds a sub-standard, albeit academically interesting, intonation.
Any number crunchers or theory wizards out there care to simplify this?
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by Gra5ity