Here's a question for fiddle teachers out there, particularily those who dabble in other styles. (I teach traditional Irish tunes with a smattering of Scottish/Canadian/old-time.)
I have a precocious fiddle student in his early teens whose mom has asked me to teach him vibrato. The dilemna is this: a great oozing vibrato clearly has no place in traditional Irish tunes. The small warble that one might throw into an air is not satisfying the musical parent in this case. Besides, the ability to turn on wide vibrato has proved quite useful to me (such as for playing cheesy wedding music to pay the bills) so it seems only fair to pass on the skill upon request.
Your thoughts on teaching vibrato are welcome. I remember the arduous process of learning vibrato myself as a youngster, and it involved playing lots of technical exercises - slowly - and applying what I learned to classical music. The student in question is remarkably good at picking up and remembering Irish tunes, but doesn't read music and has limited patience for technical exercises or for playing slowly. He loves all kinds of folk music (the livelier the better). Neither he nor I are interested in learning/teaching Classical music. I do not have the skills to teach jazz.
Neither teacher nor student is adverse to dabbling in new folk styles. Klezmer? musette? Can someone please recommend a folk genre that uses vibrato on the violin? What about an intermediate book/CD resource so I can learn to teach a few tunes in said genre?
Why not simply play some slow, simply Carolans with vibrato? Planxty Irwin, Fanny Po'er, etc?
We often brake for beginners at our sessions and they love Carolans. I amuse myself by being heretical and slipping in some vibrato as I play along.
In the safety of a lesson situation you can really go over the top with some Carolans, or some Irish Waltzes, some airs, sure, carry on, vibrato away! Who cares what the Trad Police say.
I think it would be a good idea to teach him vibrato, making sure to communicate both to the student and the musical parent the following from your post: >The dilemna is this: a great oozing vibrato clearly has no place in traditional Irish tunes. The small warble that one might throw into an air is not satisfying the musical parent in this case.<
My reasoning is that if he learns it, it's another tool he has should he want to play another of music.
Vibrato's no good to man or beast in any musical genre unless it is completely under control regarding speed and amplitude, and can be turned on and off at will. That's what takes the time to learn the skill.
One other point, apparently there's a correlation between the ability to move easily up and down the positions on the fingerboard and a good, controllable vibrato. Both need a relaxed hand, wrist and arm.
waltzes in the american folk culture, old-time, uses a wide, slow vibrato.
Being able to use it appropriately is well worth the effort to teach it.
I have the student hold the fiddle as a guitar, put the left hand in position, and have them swing the arm back and forth, naturally, sliding the fingers on the strings, then gradually "sticking" a note (like a 2nd finger note) on the fingerboard. The finger rocks gently, like a clothes hanger on the edge of a table...kinda. They then put the instrument under the chin and try the rocking motion. I try to emphasize that the finger joints, knuckles flex naturally as a result of the motion starting in the arm.
I encourage them to use it on long notes, sparingly and slowly. Nothing worse than a fast, tight vibrato on a waltz11
Go to YouTube, listen to a couple of sets by Cape Breton fiddler Dwayne Cote, and bathe yourself in his vibrato, which gives just enough sustain to notes (even at speed) to impart an otherworldly quality to the tunes. Rare stuff, hard to do, and worth a listen.
biggus dave, I thought of the gypsy stuff, and it would be perfect, except I don't know any tunes in that tradition myself. Could you point me to a resource? (a recording, player, book...)
Roby Lakatos is worth a look although he often goes down the jazzy path.
Pali Feleus and his gipsy band may be a better bet when it comes to learning tunes by ear though - i have an album somewhere that i bought in the '80s so i don't know if it's still available.
maybe a general search on youtube will yield results.
Loyko are worth a listen too.
i don't play this stuff myself but i love listening to it.
The Klezmer I've heard has plenty of vibrato in it as well. I'd venture to guess that just about any folk music from Eastern Europe and further South/East is going to have plenty of examples of fiddles with vibrato for you. I'd be interested to hear from anyone from that neck of the woods.
Learning to produce a full sounding vibrato requires mastering several other core techniques which are completely applicable to Western traditional fiddle styles. I would not hesitate to teach vibrato to a student that is far enough along to start learning it.
My classical teachers never threw a barrage of drills at me for learning vibrato. The core was taught to me as: stop an E on the A string with the first finger (4th position). Set the metronome really slow and play a slow, wide vibrato moving from an E natural to an F natural in time with the metronome. Then double the pulse without changing the metronome, then triple, then quadruple, then 6 per beat, then 8 per beat, then 9 per beat, then 16 per beat. No other fingers or anything else. The only other place to work vibrato into regular scale practice - roughly half the time with vibrato and half without.
The rest of the learning was all about how the vibrato should generally be applied to specific pieces in the classical repertoire. Every major period has a "convention" for how wide/fast the vibrato is supposed to be played and it varies with the tempo too.
I've found that a similar set of "conventions" appear in fiddle styles. The comments so far are pretty much what I've observed.
I'd say that "unlearning" is much harder. That's a good point. If you're not able to execute it yourself, you probably shouldn't be trying to teach it.
I was at an informal house-session years ago, and was talking to a very well-known uilleann piper (who shall remain nameless). Speaking about the use of vibrato on the fiddle, he stated in no uncertain terms that vibrato of any sort was completely out of place in Irish traditional music on any instrument. This amused me, because this piper (like all uilleann pipers) used a near-constant vibrato when playing airs. So I challenged him to play an air with no vibrato. After a few attempts during which he couldn't keep himself from playing vibrato, he disgustedly put down his pipes and muttered "It's different on the pipes..."
Anyhow, the Cape Breton fiddler Jerry Holland uses vibrato to great effect on occasion in reels. It's terrific. It's all about style and knowing when to do something and when not to do it.
Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Here's a question for fiddle teachers out there, particularily those who dabble in other styles. (I teach traditional Irish tunes with a smattering of Scottish/Canadian/old-time.)
I have a precocious fiddle student in his early teens whose mom has asked me to teach him vibrato. The dilemna is this: a great oozing vibrato clearly has no place in traditional Irish tunes. The small warble that one might throw into an air is not satisfying the musical parent in this case. Besides, the ability to turn on wide vibrato has proved quite useful to me (such as for playing cheesy wedding music to pay the bills) so it seems only fair to pass on the skill upon request.
Your thoughts on teaching vibrato are welcome. I remember the arduous process of learning vibrato myself as a youngster, and it involved playing lots of technical exercises - slowly - and applying what I learned to classical music. The student in question is remarkably good at picking up and remembering Irish tunes, but doesn't read music and has limited patience for technical exercises or for playing slowly. He loves all kinds of folk music (the livelier the better). Neither he nor I are interested in learning/teaching Classical music. I do not have the skills to teach jazz.
Neither teacher nor student is adverse to dabbling in new folk styles. Klezmer? musette? Can someone please recommend a folk genre that uses vibrato on the violin? What about an intermediate book/CD resource so I can learn to teach a few tunes in said genre?
Thanks!
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by treecipitation
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Why not simply play some slow, simply Carolans with vibrato? Planxty Irwin, Fanny Po'er, etc?
We often brake for beginners at our sessions and they love Carolans. I amuse myself by being heretical and slipping in some vibrato as I play along.
In the safety of a lesson situation you can really go over the top with some Carolans, or some Irish Waltzes, some airs, sure, carry on, vibrato away! Who cares what the Trad Police say.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
I think vibrato can be nice in trad. but its not the same as classical vibrato in my opinioning.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
If his mum wants him to use vibrato, then he won't use it. Sorted.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Greetings:
I think it would be a good idea to teach him vibrato, making sure to communicate both to the student and the musical parent the following from your post: >The dilemna is this: a great oozing vibrato clearly has no place in traditional Irish tunes. The small warble that one might throw into an air is not satisfying the musical parent in this case.<
My reasoning is that if he learns it, it's another tool he has should he want to play another of music.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
better to have it and not use it than want it and not have
personally I think vibrato can be a useful ornament here and there..esp. in some Scottish fiddling
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Vibrato's no good to man or beast in any musical genre unless it is completely under control regarding speed and amplitude, and can be turned on and off at will. That's what takes the time to learn the skill.
One other point, apparently there's a correlation between the ability to move easily up and down the positions on the fingerboard and a good, controllable vibrato. Both need a relaxed hand, wrist and arm.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
waltzes in the american folk culture, old-time, uses a wide, slow vibrato.
Being able to use it appropriately is well worth the effort to teach it.
I have the student hold the fiddle as a guitar, put the left hand in position, and have them swing the arm back and forth, naturally, sliding the fingers on the strings, then gradually "sticking" a note (like a 2nd finger note) on the fingerboard. The finger rocks gently, like a clothes hanger on the edge of a table...kinda. They then put the instrument under the chin and try the rocking motion. I try to emphasize that the finger joints, knuckles flex naturally as a result of the motion starting in the arm.
I encourage them to use it on long notes, sparingly and slowly. Nothing worse than a fast, tight vibrato on a waltz11
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by wyogal
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
There are some very good suggestions here (and please, keep'em coming) Thanks so much everyone!
For the moment, It looks like time to do a unit on old-time american waltzes with wide, slow vibrato.
Now I just have to learn a few such waltzes myself... =P
Sunnybear, could you point to any particular recordings of Scottish fiddling that use vibrato?
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by treecipitation
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
to answer your question,a folky genre that often uses vib is the gypsy stuff.
it should also be lively enough for your student.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by biggus dave
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Go to YouTube, listen to a couple of sets by Cape Breton fiddler Dwayne Cote, and bathe yourself in his vibrato, which gives just enough sustain to notes (even at speed) to impart an otherworldly quality to the tunes. Rare stuff, hard to do, and worth a listen.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by drone
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Ian Fraser and Pete Clark both use a bit of vibrato here and there, but it is always just that bit for the right effect at the right moment.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
biggus dave, I thought of the gypsy stuff, and it would be perfect, except I don't know any tunes in that tradition myself. Could you point me to a resource? (a recording, player, book...)
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by treecipitation
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Drone - Dwayne Cote is the business! Very interesting. I would not have guessed so much vibrato could sound so good on Scottish tunes. Thanks.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by treecipitation
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
well i like the Taraf de Haïdouks and the Kocani Orkestar - try here: http://www.divanoprod.com/ViewPage.aspx
Roby Lakatos is worth a look although he often goes down the jazzy path.
Pali Feleus and his gipsy band may be a better bet when it comes to learning tunes by ear though - i have an album somewhere that i bought in the '80s so i don't know if it's still available.
maybe a general search on youtube will yield results.
Loyko are worth a listen too.
i don't play this stuff myself but i love listening to it.
hope this helps...
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by biggus dave
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSUAs7X3nCg&mode=related&search=
you could follow up the links from this one.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by biggus dave
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
The Klezmer I've heard has plenty of vibrato in it as well. I'd venture to guess that just about any folk music from Eastern Europe and further South/East is going to have plenty of examples of fiddles with vibrato for you. I'd be interested to hear from anyone from that neck of the woods.
Learning to produce a full sounding vibrato requires mastering several other core techniques which are completely applicable to Western traditional fiddle styles. I would not hesitate to teach vibrato to a student that is far enough along to start learning it.
My classical teachers never threw a barrage of drills at me for learning vibrato. The core was taught to me as: stop an E on the A string with the first finger (4th position). Set the metronome really slow and play a slow, wide vibrato moving from an E natural to an F natural in time with the metronome. Then double the pulse without changing the metronome, then triple, then quadruple, then 6 per beat, then 8 per beat, then 9 per beat, then 16 per beat. No other fingers or anything else. The only other place to work vibrato into regular scale practice - roughly half the time with vibrato and half without.
The rest of the learning was all about how the vibrato should generally be applied to specific pieces in the classical repertoire. Every major period has a "convention" for how wide/fast the vibrato is supposed to be played and it varies with the tempo too.
I've found that a similar set of "conventions" appear in fiddle styles. The comments so far are pretty much what I've observed.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by monkey440
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
Tell the mom that if *she* wants him to learn vibrato she can do it herself!
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by meemtp
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
We had Pete Clark's CD "Fiddle Case" on at dinner last night. It has several very good examples of well-used vibrato.
# Posted on September 27th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
It would be a shame to teach this out of context and have it end badly. Unlearning is as hard a learning.
# Posted on September 27th 2007 by BarryM
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
I'd say that "unlearning" is much harder. That's a good point. If you're not able to execute it yourself, you probably shouldn't be trying to teach it.
# Posted on September 27th 2007 by monkey440
Re: Teaching query - folk fiddle and vibrato
I was at an informal house-session years ago, and was talking to a very well-known uilleann piper (who shall remain nameless). Speaking about the use of vibrato on the fiddle, he stated in no uncertain terms that vibrato of any sort was completely out of place in Irish traditional music on any instrument. This amused me, because this piper (like all uilleann pipers) used a near-constant vibrato when playing airs. So I challenged him to play an air with no vibrato. After a few attempts during which he couldn't keep himself from playing vibrato, he disgustedly put down his pipes and muttered "It's different on the pipes..."
Anyhow, the Cape Breton fiddler Jerry Holland uses vibrato to great effect on occasion in reels. It's terrific. It's all about style and knowing when to do something and when not to do it.
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by Richard D Cook