Has anyone had a cellist in on their sessions? Did it work? What/how did they play? If you play the Cello ; Do you play the tunes? Do you play allong with a fiddler? Do you accompany with chords/intervals? Or....... Any interesting storys? Have you heard of the Tenor Violin/piccalo cello? Or a 5string Cello?
All the time. I love to hear the cello although I'll admit that I've usually encountered it more frequently in Scots music sessions. The players have been known to play the actual times, other times they might accompany or provide harmony etc.
No doubt, some of the people here will assert that this instrument doesn't have a place in Irish music. So be it.
I don't subscribe to the "has no place" thing. If you are clever, you can make a place for any instrument. There are just certain parameters that you have to follow, simple ones like, don't be too loud etc. Obviously, if you are playing tunes, it would be much more favourable to play an instrument that will play rolls etc, but even this can be fudged, with imagination. And if you are strumming, be sympathetic, know the tunes etc.
Yeah, I've nothing in principle against any instrument that can contribute.
We had a lassie who turned up for a few nights with her cello though and it was disastrous. She was too loud, sawed away at all the wrong chords with terrible timing and took up too much room. I think she probably could actually play the cello quite well. but as is typical with many classical (Western Art Music) musicians, she had no ears.
The well-known Irish band De Dannan had a cellist at one point - was it a girl called Caroline Lavelle? (NB - in their earlier years they spelt their name De Danaan.)
And didn't "The Strathspey King" Scott Skinner begin his career by playing cello as a boy in ceilidh bands?
There was a cellist playing in one of the grupai cheoil 15-18 age group at the Fleadh in Tullamore last month. I can't remember which CCE branch the group was from or how well they did. They sounded pretty good but I couldn't hear the cello too well over nearly 20 other musicians. Anybody else see them?
I've heard cello used to great effect in trad tunes playing bass line and/or low drones. With a good player the range of pitch a cello has gives it great scope for loads of other melodic stuff bowed or plucked too. Never had one turn up at our session yet though.
Bye now
Keith
When I saw the Chieftans in Manchester a couple of years back they had an excellent cellist with them. Unfortuately the sound mix was so awful everyone on stage was drowned out by Kevin Conneff's bodhran, but on the bits I could hear they had incorporated the cellist successfully.
Get the Alisdair Fraser and Natalie Hass album "Playing with Fire" or listen to some of Hannekah Kassel's albums that she does with a cellist named Rahad Eggleston. Also, the classic Arcady album "Many Happy Returns" has some nice basic cello playing. I have never seen a cellist at a session, but I would welcome one....
Cellos go back a long way in irish Music, the 1920s 78rpm of the 'Old Ireland Quartet' with Billy Andrews, Frank Higgins and James Cawley had a cello on both sides (Floggin Reel and Star of Munster).
De Dannan had that American cellist touring with them during the 70s or 80s and then there was Jolyon Jackson backing Paddy Glackin, the Bowhouse Quintet and whatnot. All nice in their own way.
Last year at the Baltimore (Ireland) Fiddle Fair there was a group of young players {mostly fiddlers) from the Armagh Pipers Club which included a cellist. She mosly played harmonies , although I think she also played the tune on one slow one.I thought the mix worked very well.
If it's a gig the cello music will be presumably properly written and arranged and the instrument integrated into the ensemble, there will be band rehearsals, and the cello will be played in a safe environment. The cello, of all the fiddle family, is the one that is most easily damaged and the most expensive to repair - as well as taking up space, but that issue can be dealt with without too much hassle in a gig environment.
That last sentence I wrote lists major reasons why I would never take my cello to a pub session, despite the occasional suggestion that I should. Another reason why I don't is musical - I don't want to be playing a bass line all the time (I get enough of that in my orchestral playing, thank you very much!), with the real risk of colliding with harmonic structures (possibly of an experimental persuasion) provided by the guitarists. There would be a sound balance problem as well - the cello is a powerful instrument, and, since the sound goes away from the instrument, the cellist doesn't always appreciate the dynamic level being generated. If you require a bass fiddle-type instrument for a session then I think a viola or even an octave fiddle would be far more practicable.
I've heard of - and heard - the piccolo cello. It plays at a higher pitch, a fifth above the standard instrument (I "think"), so it would have the same pitch as an octave violin but with a much better tone and volume. As far as I know, it was a 17th/18th c instrument, and if it is used today it will only be by Early Music / Baroque specialists. The Dutch cellist Bylsma used one to play some of Bach's solo violin music on a CD some years ago. If you want one today the best bet probably would be to adapt a modern 1/2 or 3/4 size cello.
The 5-string cello (it has an E above the A) is a bit of a maverick. As far as I know, only two works were written for it - Bach's 6th cello suite, and Schubert's "Arpeggione" sonata. Cello technique over the last century or so is at a level where the 5-stringer is quite unnecessary to play these works, but one or two professional cellists have had a 5-string instrument specially made or modified from a standard 4-string cello with a view, presumably, to giving a more authentic performance.
The fiddle player Pete Cooper has done some good stuff with the cellist Richard Bolton on their CD "Turning Point".
We've got a young lad coming to a monthly session who doesn't just accompany but also plays some reels on the cello - at breakneck speed. He also plays in a folk-punk-style band to great effect. Sometimes the fiddler of the band and the cellist have 'duels' as to who plays the fastest. Not my idea of the music but a good laugh. Just to prove it can be done.
There is a great cellist in Santa Cruz CA who plays trad music of many kinds, including ITM. His name is Barry Phillips. He plays melody and gorgeous harmonies and bass lines as well. Check out his CD called, Trad. If you put a circle over the letter a in trad it becomes a Swedish word that I think means 'wood'. Barry plays many Swedish tunes in addition to Irish and Scottish.
wiliamcoulter wrote: "If you put a circle over the letter a in trad it becomes a Swedish word that I think means 'wood'."
trad white a circle over the letter a ('tråd') means thread. Trad whith two dots over the a ('träd') means tree.
Lars
In Milltown this July, I happened to meet two cellists in one day. Both were American ladies. One was playing pizzicato 'bass' in a session and although I could not hear in detail what she was doing (She was no doubt playing quietly out of courtesy and so that she could hear the other instruments), it did not in any way upset the balance of the session. She was a multi-instrumentalist with a non-trad background who had only recently taken up the cello, and not long been involved with traditional music.
The other was a classically trained cellist who played tunes. She did not play in sessions (although her daughter was an a fine fiddler, in both Irish and Appalachian music). She performed, with her daughter, as part of a string quartet playing Scots and Irish music. I (among others) was invited back to her room, where she played some Scottish airs, which sounded exquisite. She had a particular interest in Niel Gow;s tunes, many of which he himself arranged for the cello.
A teenage girl was playing a cello at an out-of-town session I attended a few months ago. She seemed new to ITM (not surprising, I guess), and didn't join in on many tunes. The ones she did play, tended to have low A parts and high B parts - on the fiddle, they'd have A parts mostly on the D and A strings, and B parts mostly on the A and E strings. She played melody, and from what I could tell, she'd play the B parts lower than the A parts.
Like llig's cellist, ours was obviously classically trained - her style was a lot more subdued than that of the folk-trained musicians, though maybe it just felt that way because she was playing in a lower register - but she was not at all disruptive, and I thought she made a nice contribution to the session.
Incidentally, my random music player is currently playing Abby Newton (http://www.abbynewton.com/index.html), who plays Scottish folk music, to lovely effect, on the cello.
Neil Martin from Belfast has played the cello to trad, he also plays poipes, low whistle and whistle. Most of his stuff these days is for films and TV along with Gay McIntyre, the Jazz player.
Last time I saw the Chieftains, a tribute for Derek Bell, they had a female cello player for a time.
And I am surprised about the Kevin Conneff "too loud" bit, because on that night I was near the front of the auditorium, and had to be stopped from going up and taking the drum of him and playing it myself, especially for O'Neill's march, because you could not hear him. He may have been under orders from Mr Maloney.
There was a cellist at a session I went to a year or two ago; I didn't really notice his playing too much at first(I was worried about my own playing at that point!), but he was polite and seemed like a nice guy. So, a lull in the tunes comes, and all of a sudden he starts playing this gorgeous air, full of emotion and expression. We all sat back, and just listened to him for the 3 mins or so he played; it was beautiful, going down to those low, low notes and then soaring back up, with great tone. I don't know much about cello playing, but this guy was GOOD. And--to top it off--he was African-American, too. An African-American man playing cello in an Irish session--who says only the traditional Irish can play the tunes?
I was just enjoying listening to Alistair Frazier and Natalie Haas about three hours ago. It gave me a lot to think about, and I would be interested to hear the eqivalent treatment of ITM.
Rather progressive stuff, some of it, and I do not know what a scholar of Scottish trad would have thought. IMHO, it was good lively music, performance pieces obviously, but as far as trad folk music goes, it seemed not to have lost its roots. Natalie was rather brilliant as an accompanist, injecting a lot of variety and texture into all of Alistair's playing, and occasionally taking a lead and holding her own very well, thank you.
You could not easily have danced to much of it (one clogger tried!), but that does not seem a major issue here -- in summation, it was fine music to listen to and likely fun to play
Well, jig, what's next? You've covered the use of bass, drums, and cello in Irish Traditional Music in your threads...
Saxophone? There are some great trad sax players around... (fortunately, not in sessions, at least that I have been to...) Or are you going for something even less traditional than that - like... ummm... Moravian nose flute?
A wonderful cellist called Caroline Lavelle came to our session at The Tree Inn several times a few years ago. I think she'd recently moved to Cornwall. I wish she'd show up again!
Neil Martin plays trad cello and was a former member of trad group Cran.
My favourite is the blue grass cello player with Crooked Still - he is also mad as a brush.
That Crooked Still cellist is Rushad Eggleston, I've only ever seen him play once and it was with Crooked Still at the Baltimore Fiddle Fair, I don't think I'll ever forget that gig, thought he was amazing, didn't like the band much though, he was way ahead of the rest of them in terms of ideas and ability. Not sure if he'd fit into an Irish session though!
The Chilean band "Viento Celta" (they only released 1 CD) did a beautiful version of Maids of Coolmore with a cello.
Not to mentio the godfather of string ensembles, The Bowhouse Quintet (not sure they have a cello, but boy do they rock that "classical music" lineup!)
The Cello in Trad
The Cello in Trad
Has anyone had a cellist in on their sessions? Did it work? What/how did they play? If you play the Cello ; Do you play the tunes? Do you play allong with a fiddler? Do you accompany with chords/intervals? Or....... Any interesting storys? Have you heard of the Tenor Violin/piccalo cello? Or a 5string Cello?
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Cello in Trad
All the time. I love to hear the cello although I'll admit that I've usually encountered it more frequently in Scots music sessions. The players have been known to play the actual times, other times they might accompany or provide harmony etc.
No doubt, some of the people here will assert that this instrument doesn't have a place in Irish music. So be it.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by John J.
Re: The Cello in Trad
I don't subscribe to the "has no place" thing. If you are clever, you can make a place for any instrument. There are just certain parameters that you have to follow, simple ones like, don't be too loud etc. Obviously, if you are playing tunes, it would be much more favourable to play an instrument that will play rolls etc, but even this can be fudged, with imagination. And if you are strumming, be sympathetic, know the tunes etc.
Yeah, I've nothing in principle against any instrument that can contribute.
We had a lassie who turned up for a few nights with her cello though and it was disastrous. She was too loud, sawed away at all the wrong chords with terrible timing and took up too much room. I think she probably could actually play the cello quite well. but as is typical with many classical (Western Art Music) musicians, she had no ears.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: The Cello in Trad
"actual times".
"actual TUNES" , I meant to say.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by John J.
Re: The Cello in Trad
The well-known Irish band De Dannan had a cellist at one point - was it a girl called Caroline Lavelle? (NB - in their earlier years they spelt their name De Danaan.)
And didn't "The Strathspey King" Scott Skinner begin his career by playing cello as a boy in ceilidh bands?
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by nicholas
Re: The Cello in Trad
There was a cellist playing in one of the grupai cheoil 15-18 age group at the Fleadh in Tullamore last month. I can't remember which CCE branch the group was from or how well they did. They sounded pretty good but I couldn't hear the cello too well over nearly 20 other musicians. Anybody else see them?
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by Lissagriffin
Re: The Cello in Trad
I've heard cello used to great effect in trad tunes playing bass line and/or low drones. With a good player the range of pitch a cello has gives it great scope for loads of other melodic stuff bowed or plucked too. Never had one turn up at our session yet though.
Bye now
Keith
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by ocarolan
Re: The Cello in Trad
When I saw the Chieftans in Manchester a couple of years back they had an excellent cellist with them. Unfortuately the sound mix was so awful everyone on stage was drowned out by Kevin Conneff's bodhran, but on the bits I could hear they had incorporated the cellist successfully.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: The Cello in Trad
Get the Alisdair Fraser and Natalie Hass album "Playing with Fire" or listen to some of Hannekah Kassel's albums that she does with a cellist named Rahad Eggleston. Also, the classic Arcady album "Many Happy Returns" has some nice basic cello playing. I have never seen a cellist at a session, but I would welcome one....
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by AlBrown
Re: The Cello in Trad
Cellos go back a long way in irish Music, the 1920s 78rpm of the 'Old Ireland Quartet' with Billy Andrews, Frank Higgins and James Cawley had a cello on both sides (Floggin Reel and Star of Munster).
De Dannan had that American cellist touring with them during the 70s or 80s and then there was Jolyon Jackson backing Paddy Glackin, the Bowhouse Quintet and whatnot. All nice in their own way.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The Cello in Trad
Last year at the Baltimore (Ireland) Fiddle Fair there was a group of young players {mostly fiddlers) from the Armagh Pipers Club which included a cellist. She mosly played harmonies , although I think she also played the tune on one slow one.I thought the mix worked very well.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by cathycook
Re: The Cello in Trad
I look forward to Lazyhound's input here - I understand he 'plays the cello quite well', plays classical as well as ITM, and he even has ears
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by domnull
Re: The Cello in Trad
If it's a gig the cello music will be presumably properly written and arranged and the instrument integrated into the ensemble, there will be band rehearsals, and the cello will be played in a safe environment. The cello, of all the fiddle family, is the one that is most easily damaged and the most expensive to repair - as well as taking up space, but that issue can be dealt with without too much hassle in a gig environment.
That last sentence I wrote lists major reasons why I would never take my cello to a pub session, despite the occasional suggestion that I should. Another reason why I don't is musical - I don't want to be playing a bass line all the time (I get enough of that in my orchestral playing, thank you very much!), with the real risk of colliding with harmonic structures (possibly of an experimental persuasion) provided by the guitarists. There would be a sound balance problem as well - the cello is a powerful instrument, and, since the sound goes away from the instrument, the cellist doesn't always appreciate the dynamic level being generated. If you require a bass fiddle-type instrument for a session then I think a viola or even an octave fiddle would be far more practicable.
I've heard of - and heard - the piccolo cello. It plays at a higher pitch, a fifth above the standard instrument (I "think"), so it would have the same pitch as an octave violin but with a much better tone and volume. As far as I know, it was a 17th/18th c instrument, and if it is used today it will only be by Early Music / Baroque specialists. The Dutch cellist Bylsma used one to play some of Bach's solo violin music on a CD some years ago. If you want one today the best bet probably would be to adapt a modern 1/2 or 3/4 size cello.
The 5-string cello (it has an E above the A) is a bit of a maverick. As far as I know, only two works were written for it - Bach's 6th cello suite, and Schubert's "Arpeggione" sonata. Cello technique over the last century or so is at a level where the 5-stringer is quite unnecessary to play these works, but one or two professional cellists have had a 5-string instrument specially made or modified from a standard 4-string cello with a view, presumably, to giving a more authentic performance.
The fiddle player Pete Cooper has done some good stuff with the cellist Richard Bolton on their CD "Turning Point".
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The Cello in Trad
We've got a young lad coming to a monthly session who doesn't just accompany but also plays some reels on the cello - at breakneck speed. He also plays in a folk-punk-style band to great effect. Sometimes the fiddler of the band and the cellist have 'duels' as to who plays the fastest. Not my idea of the music but a good laugh. Just to prove it can be done.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by kuec
Re: The Cello in Trad
Some interesting reading on the subject:
http://www.standingstones.com/cellopg.html
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by mcswiss
Re: The Cello in Trad
There is a great cellist in Santa Cruz CA who plays trad music of many kinds, including ITM. His name is Barry Phillips. He plays melody and gorgeous harmonies and bass lines as well. Check out his CD called, Trad. If you put a circle over the letter a in trad it becomes a Swedish word that I think means 'wood'. Barry plays many Swedish tunes in addition to Irish and Scottish.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by williamcoulter
Re: The Cello in Trad
wiliamcoulter wrote: "If you put a circle over the letter a in trad it becomes a Swedish word that I think means 'wood'."
trad white a circle over the letter a ('tråd') means thread. Trad whith two dots over the a ('träd') means tree.
Lars
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by lars
Re: The Cello in Trad
In Milltown this July, I happened to meet two cellists in one day. Both were American ladies. One was playing pizzicato 'bass' in a session and although I could not hear in detail what she was doing (She was no doubt playing quietly out of courtesy and so that she could hear the other instruments), it did not in any way upset the balance of the session. She was a multi-instrumentalist with a non-trad background who had only recently taken up the cello, and not long been involved with traditional music.
The other was a classically trained cellist who played tunes. She did not play in sessions (although her daughter was an a fine fiddler, in both Irish and Appalachian music). She performed, with her daughter, as part of a string quartet playing Scots and Irish music. I (among others) was invited back to her room, where she played some Scottish airs, which sounded exquisite. She had a particular interest in Niel Gow;s tunes, many of which he himself arranged for the cello.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The Cello in Trad
It sounds lovely, Danu uses it a bit. I believe it's played by the fiddler's brother, actually.
However, when we've had a cellist in at our session she's gotten drowned out fairly quickly.
Probably more of a perfomance group thing than a session thing.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Cello in Trad
A teenage girl was playing a cello at an out-of-town session I attended a few months ago. She seemed new to ITM (not surprising, I guess), and didn't join in on many tunes. The ones she did play, tended to have low A parts and high B parts - on the fiddle, they'd have A parts mostly on the D and A strings, and B parts mostly on the A and E strings. She played melody, and from what I could tell, she'd play the B parts lower than the A parts.
Like llig's cellist, ours was obviously classically trained - her style was a lot more subdued than that of the folk-trained musicians, though maybe it just felt that way because she was playing in a lower register - but she was not at all disruptive, and I thought she made a nice contribution to the session.
Incidentally, my random music player is currently playing Abby Newton (http://www.abbynewton.com/index.html), who plays Scottish folk music, to lovely effect, on the cello.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: The Cello in Trad
Neil Martin from Belfast has played the cello to trad, he also plays poipes, low whistle and whistle. Most of his stuff these days is for films and TV along with Gay McIntyre, the Jazz player.
Last time I saw the Chieftains, a tribute for Derek Bell, they had a female cello player for a time.
And I am surprised about the Kevin Conneff "too loud" bit, because on that night I was near the front of the auditorium, and had to be stopped from going up and taking the drum of him and playing it myself, especially for O'Neill's march, because you could not hear him. He may have been under orders from Mr Maloney.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: The Cello in Trad
Well! Isn't THIS an interesting, informative, civil, rational, and helpful thread?
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by oldstrings
Re: The Cello in Trad
There was a cellist at a session I went to a year or two ago; I didn't really notice his playing too much at first(I was worried about my own playing at that point!), but he was polite and seemed like a nice guy. So, a lull in the tunes comes, and all of a sudden he starts playing this gorgeous air, full of emotion and expression. We all sat back, and just listened to him for the 3 mins or so he played; it was beautiful, going down to those low, low notes and then soaring back up, with great tone. I don't know much about cello playing, but this guy was GOOD. And--to top it off--he was African-American, too. An African-American man playing cello in an Irish session--who says only the traditional Irish can play the tunes?
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by mellow yellow
Re: The Cello in Trad
I was just enjoying listening to Alistair Frazier and Natalie Haas about three hours ago. It gave me a lot to think about, and I would be interested to hear the eqivalent treatment of ITM.
Rather progressive stuff, some of it, and I do not know what a scholar of Scottish trad would have thought. IMHO, it was good lively music, performance pieces obviously, but as far as trad folk music goes, it seemed not to have lost its roots. Natalie was rather brilliant as an accompanist, injecting a lot of variety and texture into all of Alistair's playing, and occasionally taking a lead and holding her own very well, thank you.
You could not easily have danced to much of it (one clogger tried!), but that does not seem a major issue here -- in summation, it was fine music to listen to and likely fun to play
Check them out.
# Posted on September 22nd 2007 by Piece
Re: The Cello in Trad
Well, jig, what's next? You've covered the use of bass, drums, and cello in Irish Traditional Music in your threads...
Saxophone? There are some great trad sax players around... (fortunately, not in sessions, at least that I have been to...) Or are you going for something even less traditional than that - like... ummm... Moravian nose flute?
Pete
# Posted on September 22nd 2007 by Reverend
Re: The Cello in Trad
"Alistair Frazier"
umm.......not the TV psychiatrist, Rook!
# Posted on September 22nd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: The Cello in Trad
Thank you, oldstrings. Very bad slip of the spelling -- (blush!).
I will plead insanity, or at least too many pints at the festival yestereve..
Last time I try caber-catching...
# Posted on September 22nd 2007 by Piece
Re: The Cello in Trad
We once had a tuba player come to a session! he played harvest home, hmmm. Moravian nose flute. why? you know a player who has some jigs and reels?
# Posted on September 22nd 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Cello in Trad
I've been working on my nose flute playing actually... But it's a bugger to get a good tune out on the thing.
pete
# Posted on September 22nd 2007 by Reverend
Re: The Cello in Trad
A wonderful cellist called Caroline Lavelle came to our session at The Tree Inn several times a few years ago. I think she'd recently moved to Cornwall. I wish she'd show up again!
# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: The Cello in Trad
Anna Houston of Sligo plays the cello with her band "No crows"
http://www.nocrows.net/
http://www.myspace.com/nocrows
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by swisspiper
Re: The Cello in Trad
Neil Martin plays trad cello and was a former member of trad group Cran.
My favourite is the blue grass cello player with Crooked Still - he is also mad as a brush.
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by iwerzon
Re: The Cello in Trad
That Crooked Still cellist is Rushad Eggleston, I've only ever seen him play once and it was with Crooked Still at the Baltimore Fiddle Fair, I don't think I'll ever forget that gig, thought he was amazing, didn't like the band much though, he was way ahead of the rest of them in terms of ideas and ability. Not sure if he'd fit into an Irish session though!
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: The Cello in Trad
The Chilean band "Viento Celta" (they only released 1 CD) did a beautiful version of Maids of Coolmore with a cello.
Not to mentio the godfather of string ensembles, The Bowhouse Quintet (not sure they have a cello, but boy do they rock that "classical music" lineup!)
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Pablofromargentina