I was somewhat relieved about a week ago when I found a discussion from last year (now can't find it - don't remember how I queried it). Someone else was considering changing their left hand position on the flute, from classical to piper style, because they couldn't get the proper roll on B. "Wow!" says I - I thought I was the only one! I was starting to think perhaps my flute hole spacing was just too far for me (I can get the B roll on whistle, though it's not as comfortable yet as the other rolls). I thought I would never get the A roll down, but finally did. But the B is definitely a different problem. I've messed with the piper hold, though the flute does wiggle around more that way. Did that person (are you out there?) change their positioning? What success/failure did you find with it? Any others who've done the same? It seems like it really is physically impossible to do the roll properly with classical hold, but I dread relearning.....
I use a Rockstro hold (which you might say is a Classical hold), and i get the B roll right about 45% of the time. I suspect switching to the piper grip won't help much, but hey try it, and if it works, then fine! Left handed rolls only respect 3 things: practice, practice and practice. Practice rolls at least 10 minutes every day, and in a couple of months they will start getting better.
I have NEVER been able to roll the B properly, despite 23 years of playing and being regarded as a very good player. It may have to do with a "lazy" left hand and having learned to play rather than being taught. I can roll and cran effortlessly and I too have tried the piper grip and can roll the B easily enough with it, but just do not find that grip very comfortable. Still, I keep trying it and hit it every now and then, much to my great surprise and delight. Don't worry about it too much. I have met some fine players flute/ whistle players who can't or don't roll at all.
If this is the case, this one has timing problems for me too, also the upper register E roll (E -> cut -> E -> tap -> E) is never clear or smooth, and a cran seems to work much better on this note.
As for practice. I go up and down two octaves, first playing each note 4 times, then cutting each 4 times, then tapping each 4 times, then rolling each 4 times. For those that don't have a cut/tap (like C#) I just kind of skip through it fast. And I need a lot more practice -- these are hard!
Yesterday my flute teacher was telling me to consider using the soft pad of my finger to get a watery sound on the rolls. I usually aim for more of a "bullet" like sound -- a quick tat-tat-tat like sound, using a bit of flesh higher up.
I don't know about rolls on B, but I do use piper's grip on flute...I've always liked it since it keeps my hands more relaxed. I suppose it's also out of laziness...I learned whistle first, using piper's grip, then did the same thing on flute. (If I ever take flute lessons, I'll probably be scolded for it or something!)
Tim
Thanks all. I really appreciate the advice (and empathy). I guess the fingering problems just fit in with my motto concerning Irish music: it's be a lifelong pursuit!
Colleen
Pipers grip means you donīt cover the holes with the first section of your finger but with the second (middle). This results in a more flat position of the fingers than in the classical grip where your fingers are somewhat arched. For me itīs a mix, left hand classical, right hand piper, but everybody feels different about it (canīt do proper b rolls at all ) )
Hope that helps, Dagmar
I believe I might be the person who initiated the thread to which you refer. I did not successfully make the conversion. I did practice the piper fingering for quite a while, but eventually became frustrated with not being able to seal the holes properly. I did find however, that my ability to roll a 'B' was much better, albeit the sound was suffering because of leakage in covering the holes. I may get back to the piper fingers anyway. I currently play three different flutes, and I have been concentrating more on the differences in the embrochure than on the method of fingerings. By the way, I believe I am currently playing as Dagmar suggests.
Arbo, good to hear from you about your experiences. I think with my short meddlings with left hand piper grip, I found the same result: too much air leakage - and Lord knows I can't afford the air! Though I could see it happening after much practice. I, like you Dagmar, have always used piper grip with my right on my irish flute, because I found it extremely difficult to cover the D-E-F holes with the fingertips. It's funny, I thought I was "the only one" for so long because when I had some lessons with Larry Nugent, he said to me "your fingers are sticking out" as if he was pointing out that I had a disease. But I knew I had some bit of success with it (it was comfortable, holes were securely covered, etc.) and didn't plan on changing it. But.....I may still try to remedy this B-roll problem, though it's tempting to let it slide since others of you have said you've played for years and still can't get it! If I don't get lazy, it's a good situation: I can work on it, but not feel too pressured about it. Thanks to you guys for chipping in.
Off the subject, do you fluters/whistlers have a favorite Irish flute or whistle player, and why?
Also, Arbo, can you share any insights to your embouchure concentration? That is another area of the flute I've been thinking I need to improve on lately.
Colleen
Hi everybody.
I use my fingertips instead of the piper's grip. That's how I've always played. Judging from what you people are saying, it seems that that grip is highly ineffective. And I can do the roll on B easily enough. What helps me is pointing my elbow out in front and away from me, instead of pointing it at the floor.
Have you ever considered getting a keyed flute? If so, you'll have to learn to arch your fingers (I recently acquired an antique 8-key flute from Ralph Sweet which I unfallingly adore).
Colleen, my favorite flute player would have to be Matt Malloy. I saw him at a concert on St. Pat's Day, he was *amazing* (as usual). : )
When my husband and I were in Ireland in September (dream trip) I picked up Music at Matt Molloy's, having never heard of it. It was the only CD I got there, and that was a great purchase!! I love it. I have also seen the Chieftains video (Irish Evening?) where he does that long solo, and sounds like two people playing at once! Amazing, I agree. You're blessed to see him live.
Colleen
All the great friends-fluters whom I pestered while I was trying to learn, especially (the Reverend) Gary Hastings. And the man who first inspired me and whose music and singing I keep coming back to nearly 30 years later -- the one and only Cathal McConnell. Also Michael Tubridy and Seamus Tansey. His pure talent aside, Matt M is great for showing you how to "flute" more tricky fiddle tunes. I also like Matt because he has complimented me on my own playing and stood me a few free pints in his pub!
Yes, Matt M showed us what can be done and that there's no such thing as a "fiddle tune". He inspired many people to tak up the wooden flute, including me. The very first album of Irish music i listened to was Matt's "black" album with Donal Loony.
with respect to embrochures, I have have beenswitching between an old German flute (copy of a Meyer), a Sam Murray, and a Gilles LeHart. I find that I tend to push a lot of air through the flute, so I usually have the head joint rolled in a fair amount, where the outer edge of the mouth hole is aligned slightly past the middle of the finger holes, toward my body. With the Meyer flute, I cover an extensive amount of the mouth hole with my lower lip. I find that this position gives the strongest tone, and perpetuates the 'raspy, edgy sound I like to hear. With the Murray, I believe I am using a much looser embrochure. I still play with much of my lower lip covering the mouth hole. The Lehart I think, is a tighter embrochure, where I am tightening my lips at the corners of my mouth. On all of these flutes I am looking for that thin line between producing the raspy, hard, edge of the note, the point just before the note breaks in to the next octave. I will try and pay a little closer attention to exactly what I am doing and get back to you with more.
Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
I was somewhat relieved about a week ago when I found a discussion from last year (now can't find it - don't remember how I queried it). Someone else was considering changing their left hand position on the flute, from classical to piper style, because they couldn't get the proper roll on B. "Wow!" says I - I thought I was the only one! I was starting to think perhaps my flute hole spacing was just too far for me (I can get the B roll on whistle, though it's not as comfortable yet as the other rolls). I thought I would never get the A roll down, but finally did. But the B is definitely a different problem. I've messed with the piper hold, though the flute does wiggle around more that way. Did that person (are you out there?) change their positioning? What success/failure did you find with it? Any others who've done the same? It seems like it really is physically impossible to do the roll properly with classical hold, but I dread relearning.....
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by cdavick
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
I use a Rockstro hold (which you might say is a Classical hold), and i get the B roll right about 45% of the time. I suspect switching to the piper grip won't help much, but hey try it, and if it works, then fine! Left handed rolls only respect 3 things: practice, practice and practice. Practice rolls at least 10 minutes every day, and in a couple of months they will start getting better.
g
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
I have NEVER been able to roll the B properly, despite 23 years of playing and being regarded as a very good player. It may have to do with a "lazy" left hand and having learned to play rather than being taught. I can roll and cran effortlessly and I too have tried the piper grip and can roll the B easily enough with it, but just do not find that grip very comfortable. Still, I keep trying it and hit it every now and then, much to my great surprise and delight. Don't worry about it too much. I have met some fine players flute/ whistle players who can't or don't roll at all.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by LongNote
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
When you say a B roll do you mean:
B-> C# -> B -> A -> B?
If this is the case, this one has timing problems for me too, also the upper register E roll (E -> cut -> E -> tap -> E) is never clear or smooth, and a cran seems to work much better on this note.
As for practice. I go up and down two octaves, first playing each note 4 times, then cutting each 4 times, then tapping each 4 times, then rolling each 4 times. For those that don't have a cut/tap (like C#) I just kind of skip through it fast. And I need a lot more practice -- these are hard!
Yesterday my flute teacher was telling me to consider using the soft pad of my finger to get a watery sound on the rolls. I usually aim for more of a "bullet" like sound -- a quick tat-tat-tat like sound, using a bit of flesh higher up.
This subject is soooo big!
--Eliot
# Posted on March 14th 2003 by Eliot
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
I don't know about rolls on B, but I do use piper's grip on flute...I've always liked it since it keeps my hands more relaxed. I suppose it's also out of laziness...I learned whistle first, using piper's grip, then did the same thing on flute. (If I ever take flute lessons, I'll probably be scolded for it or something!)
Tim
# Posted on March 14th 2003 by loscann7
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Thanks all. I really appreciate the advice (and empathy). I guess the fingering problems just fit in with my motto concerning Irish music: it's be a lifelong pursuit!
Colleen
# Posted on March 16th 2003 by cdavick
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Ack! B rolls! Help! What's the piper grip?
# Posted on March 19th 2003 by cwildeky
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Pipers grip means you donīt cover the holes with the first section of your finger but with the second (middle). This results in a more flat position of the fingers than in the classical grip where your fingers are somewhat arched. For me itīs a mix, left hand classical, right hand piper, but everybody feels different about it (canīt do proper b rolls at all
) )
Hope that helps, Dagmar
# Posted on March 20th 2003 by drdagmar
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Colleen,
I believe I might be the person who initiated the thread to which you refer. I did not successfully make the conversion. I did practice the piper fingering for quite a while, but eventually became frustrated with not being able to seal the holes properly. I did find however, that my ability to roll a 'B' was much better, albeit the sound was suffering because of leakage in covering the holes. I may get back to the piper fingers anyway. I currently play three different flutes, and I have been concentrating more on the differences in the embrochure than on the method of fingerings. By the way, I believe I am currently playing as Dagmar suggests.
Arbo
# Posted on March 21st 2003 by Imnotirish
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Arbo and Dagmar, as a rookie on flute it's a relief to learn that other flute players mix the fingering this way. Thanks for your continued input.
# Posted on March 21st 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Arbo, good to hear from you about your experiences. I think with my short meddlings with left hand piper grip, I found the same result: too much air leakage - and Lord knows I can't afford the air! Though I could see it happening after much practice. I, like you Dagmar, have always used piper grip with my right on my irish flute, because I found it extremely difficult to cover the D-E-F holes with the fingertips. It's funny, I thought I was "the only one" for so long because when I had some lessons with Larry Nugent, he said to me "your fingers are sticking out" as if he was pointing out that I had a disease
. But I knew I had some bit of success with it (it was comfortable, holes were securely covered, etc.) and didn't plan on changing it. But.....I may still try to remedy this B-roll problem, though it's tempting to let it slide since others of you have said you've played for years and still can't get it! If I don't get lazy, it's a good situation: I can work on it, but not feel too pressured about it. Thanks to you guys for chipping in.
Off the subject, do you fluters/whistlers have a favorite Irish flute or whistle player, and why?
Colleen
# Posted on March 21st 2003 by cdavick
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Also, Arbo, can you share any insights to your embouchure concentration? That is another area of the flute I've been thinking I need to improve on lately.
Colleen
# Posted on March 21st 2003 by cdavick
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Hi everybody.
I use my fingertips instead of the piper's grip. That's how I've always played. Judging from what you people are saying, it seems that that grip is highly ineffective. And I can do the roll on B easily enough. What helps me is pointing my elbow out in front and away from me, instead of pointing it at the floor.
Have you ever considered getting a keyed flute? If so, you'll have to learn to arch your fingers (I recently acquired an antique 8-key flute from Ralph Sweet which I unfallingly adore).
Colleen, my favorite flute player would have to be Matt Malloy. I saw him at a concert on St. Pat's Day, he was *amazing* (as usual). : )
timmy
# Posted on March 21st 2003 by tadgh
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
When my husband and I were in Ireland in September (dream trip) I picked up Music at Matt Molloy's, having never heard of it. It was the only CD I got there, and that was a great purchase!! I love it. I have also seen the Chieftains video (Irish Evening?) where he does that long solo, and sounds like two people playing at once! Amazing, I agree. You're blessed to see him live.
Colleen
# Posted on March 21st 2003 by cdavick
Favourite flute players
At the deity level: Matt Molloy.
At the human level: Harry Bradley and Chris Norman.
# Posted on March 21st 2003 by glauber
Favourite Flute Players
All the great friends-fluters whom I pestered while I was trying to learn, especially (the Reverend) Gary Hastings. And the man who first inspired me and whose music and singing I keep coming back to nearly 30 years later -- the one and only Cathal McConnell. Also Michael Tubridy and Seamus Tansey. His pure talent aside, Matt M is great for showing you how to "flute" more tricky fiddle tunes. I also like Matt because he has complimented me on my own playing and stood me a few free pints in his pub!
# Posted on March 22nd 2003 by LongNote
M&M
Yes, Matt M showed us what can be done and that there's no such thing as a "fiddle tune". He inspired many people to tak up the wooden flute, including me. The very first album of Irish music i listened to was Matt's "black" album with Donal Loony.
# Posted on March 22nd 2003 by glauber
Re: Flute Fingering Positions (Revisited)
Colleen,
with respect to embrochures, I have have beenswitching between an old German flute (copy of a Meyer), a Sam Murray, and a Gilles LeHart. I find that I tend to push a lot of air through the flute, so I usually have the head joint rolled in a fair amount, where the outer edge of the mouth hole is aligned slightly past the middle of the finger holes, toward my body. With the Meyer flute, I cover an extensive amount of the mouth hole with my lower lip. I find that this position gives the strongest tone, and perpetuates the 'raspy, edgy sound I like to hear. With the Murray, I believe I am using a much looser embrochure. I still play with much of my lower lip covering the mouth hole. The Lehart I think, is a tighter embrochure, where I am tightening my lips at the corners of my mouth. On all of these flutes I am looking for that thin line between producing the raspy, hard, edge of the note, the point just before the note breaks in to the next octave. I will try and pay a little closer attention to exactly what I am doing and get back to you with more.
Arbo
# Posted on March 26th 2003 by Imnotirish