There's a great discussion on another newsgroup that focuses on passing the lead. I've heard lots of ideas how this rather large group (300 - 500 dulcimer players) can make it possible to liven up their jams with a lead change. The most interesting ideas come from the Irish tradition and I'll add that comment below. Do you change the lead or go for the 'ol three times and out?
Interestingly, in many Irish sessions it's the back-up chord players that take turns accompanying while the fiddles, whistles, pipes, etc. are often playing the melody simultaneously. Part of the reason is that the really good Irish back-up players do a lot of improvising with multiple chord changes, substitute chords, and interesting chord progressions. In a jam, two chord players who haven't worked out an arrangement are unlikely to match chords very close to 100%. Even just one back up musician may not use
the same chords the second time through the tune.
Submitted by Judith
Interesting! (I am finding this discussion really intriguing!) And you're absolutely correct about that behavior in Irish sessions. But I did hear the Boys of the Lough last night, and one of the things I came away with was an appreciation of how they changed the *texture* of a tune by changing the instrumentation at 16 bar intervals: it was often quite a dramatic change and really increased by involvement with the tune itself by hearing it in such different ways.
Of course, this observation doesn't apply to situations where one has 15 of the same instruments!
I am trying to get this going in session but you need players who can take the lead, and from what we read in other threads, sessions are either short of lead players, or there are that many, lead players get accused of running vertical sessions.
The second problem I find is that some players can only play the same as the person next to them and if I play something different, they either stop, or follow me.
I do it in the band as the rest of the players are used to jazz so it comes second nature.
Two points to JRathbun
1) I suspect you can do it with a session of 15 similar instruments if some of them quieten down
2) Chord players who regularly play together can "read each other like a book" and do match chords, even with brand new tunes, as they know each others style - thats why they burst out laughing when one of them does something new the other hadn't anticipated.
Nevertheless, taking leads is still worth encouraging in session, even if it means organising to go around the room and play lead in groups of two or three, where necessary.
Passing the lead is a concept that is probably more common than we realise in sessions. Often in our sessions, if someone has a set to play, he/she will play a bar or two of each tune quietly and quickly to determine if anybody else has the tunes. Normally, if even one other person can follow the sequence, they will launch into the set. Also at the end of a set, if an individual has a tune that they think will fit, they will start it, and any takers will join in (or not) as the humour takes them. This way everyone gets a shot at being "leader" and nobody needs to feel used. I think the norm among accompanists is to share out the sets between them, unless of course they play different instruments, and one can compliment the other.
Unless you have a very big session, two guitars is one too many, as is two of any accompaniment instrument, regardless of how well they know each others style. If two guitar players can read each other like a book, maybe it's time for one of them to move on, or better still, start a new session. All they are achieving is more volume (and we all know how melody players feel about loud accompaniment).
Backer, my line is "two guitars are TWO too many". What I mean by that is you're better off without any than you are with two. (I'm a backer, as well as banjo and concertina, so this isn't a slam on backers).
jrathbun, would you mind defining what exactly you mean by "lead change"? I don't want to get confused here. At an old time jam I attended once, they'd take turns playing the melody as a lead solo sort of thing, is that what you mean? Rather than leading the tune changes?
Sorry, I should have defined myself better. My idea of a lead change is within the same song. Trad bluegrass and jazz players often play the first verse together to establish rythm, volume, etc. The "Moderator" then might nod to another person to take the lead while everybody else either chords or reduces volume. If the person declines they simply shake their head and keep playing. If by chance the player has the chords in front of them or they know the chords of the song they might play either the melody or deviate to the chord and plink it out. It's fun either way.
Yeah, that kind of freaked me out at the old time session I went at...I couldn't figure out if I was meant to stop playing or what...it wasn't til afterwards that I figured out that, yes, if one person is playing the tune, you're supposed to stop and do something backgroundy, which just felt too weird to me after playing Irish..l
Passing the lead
Passing the lead
There's a great discussion on another newsgroup that focuses on passing the lead. I've heard lots of ideas how this rather large group (300 - 500 dulcimer players) can make it possible to liven up their jams with a lead change. The most interesting ideas come from the Irish tradition and I'll add that comment below. Do you change the lead or go for the 'ol three times and out?
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by jrathbun
Re: Passing the lead
Interestingly, in many Irish sessions it's the back-up chord players that take turns accompanying while the fiddles, whistles, pipes, etc. are often playing the melody simultaneously. Part of the reason is that the really good Irish back-up players do a lot of improvising with multiple chord changes, substitute chords, and interesting chord progressions. In a jam, two chord players who haven't worked out an arrangement are unlikely to match chords very close to 100%. Even just one back up musician may not use
the same chords the second time through the tune.
Submitted by Judith
Interesting! (I am finding this discussion really intriguing!) And you're absolutely correct about that behavior in Irish sessions. But I did hear the Boys of the Lough last night, and one of the things I came away with was an appreciation of how they changed the *texture* of a tune by changing the instrumentation at 16 bar intervals: it was often quite a dramatic change and really increased by involvement with the tune itself by hearing it in such different ways.
Of course, this observation doesn't apply to situations where one has 15 of the same instruments!
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by jrathbun
Re: Passing the lead
I am trying to get this going in session but you need players who can take the lead, and from what we read in other threads, sessions are either short of lead players, or there are that many, lead players get accused of running vertical sessions.
The second problem I find is that some players can only play the same as the person next to them and if I play something different, they either stop, or follow me.
I do it in the band as the rest of the players are used to jazz so it comes second nature.
Two points to JRathbun
1) I suspect you can do it with a session of 15 similar instruments if some of them quieten down
2) Chord players who regularly play together can "read each other like a book" and do match chords, even with brand new tunes, as they know each others style - thats why they burst out laughing when one of them does something new the other hadn't anticipated.
Nevertheless, taking leads is still worth encouraging in session, even if it means organising to go around the room and play lead in groups of two or three, where necessary.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Passing the lead
Passing the lead is a concept that is probably more common than we realise in sessions. Often in our sessions, if someone has a set to play, he/she will play a bar or two of each tune quietly and quickly to determine if anybody else has the tunes. Normally, if even one other person can follow the sequence, they will launch into the set. Also at the end of a set, if an individual has a tune that they think will fit, they will start it, and any takers will join in (or not) as the humour takes them. This way everyone gets a shot at being "leader" and nobody needs to feel used. I think the norm among accompanists is to share out the sets between them, unless of course they play different instruments, and one can compliment the other.
Unless you have a very big session, two guitars is one too many, as is two of any accompaniment instrument, regardless of how well they know each others style. If two guitar players can read each other like a book, maybe it's time for one of them to move on, or better still, start a new session. All they are achieving is more volume (and we all know how melody players feel about loud accompaniment).
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Backer
Re: Passing the lead
Backer, my line is "two guitars are TWO too many". What I mean by that is you're better off without any than you are with two. (I'm a backer, as well as banjo and concertina, so this isn't a slam on backers).
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Tusong200
Re: Passing the lead
jrathbun, would you mind defining what exactly you mean by "lead change"? I don't want to get confused here. At an old time jam I attended once, they'd take turns playing the melody as a lead solo sort of thing, is that what you mean? Rather than leading the tune changes?
Zina
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Passing the lead
Sorry, I should have defined myself better. My idea of a lead change is within the same song. Trad bluegrass and jazz players often play the first verse together to establish rythm, volume, etc. The "Moderator" then might nod to another person to take the lead while everybody else either chords or reduces volume. If the person declines they simply shake their head and keep playing. If by chance the player has the chords in front of them or they know the chords of the song they might play either the melody or deviate to the chord and plink it out. It's fun either way.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by jrathbun
Re: Passing the lead
Lead change is also known as transmutation, a mediaeval get rich quick scheme where lead is turned into gold.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Passing the lead
My kid brother accidently swallowed a pencil, but fortunately he passed the lead.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Passing the lead
Yeah, that kind of freaked me out at the old time session I went at...I couldn't figure out if I was meant to stop playing or what...it wasn't til afterwards that I figured out that, yes, if one person is playing the tune, you're supposed to stop and do something backgroundy, which just felt too weird to me after playing Irish..l
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee