I'm thinking about learning the mandolin and I had a few questions... I've seen that that there are a couple different types and I was wondering if anyone who has experience in them could give their recomendations.
I've read that the "f-style" is used mostly for bluegrass and the "a-style" is more for Irish and other folk music. Is this true, and is there a difference in sound, or is this mostly aesthetic?
Also, I'm leaning towards an acoustic/electric, but I was wondering about how different that would sound from an acoustic model of the same brand?
The mandolins that one typically encounters from a luthier that makes Irish folk instruments are flat-back A-style mandolins with oval sound holes. I know the article about mandos in Irish folk on Wikipedia says that these are the most common types, but I think that's just due mainly to the ever-lasting influence of pionneers like Andy Irvine, Johnny Moynihan, and Paul Brady who used old '20s and '30s Gibson A(3)-styles. In the standard small music store in Ireland F and A styles with f-holes are the most readily available and I see guys in sessions using all different kinds. At leas the people that I play with are not particular about what kind you have.
The problem with the mandolin is that it can be difficult to find a reasonably-priced entry level instrument that has enough volume--because you're always going to be out-done but the banjo and fiddle players. The guy who taught me how to play mandolin has an old acoustic electric and he typically carts around a little amp with him depending on where he's playing (but he also plays tenor banjo).
I think a good starting instrument would be either a Crafter or Ovation acoustic electric mando. They're pretty similar to one another: spruce sound board, graphite body, rosewood finger board. The Ovation has a better pre-amp in it than the Crafter, but in Ireland the only time I saw an Ovation it was rather unfairly priced (at least compared to what you would pay Guitar Center in the States). You don't need to plug in to practice and if you're going to play in a session you can always use a little amp--if the people you're playing with don't have anything up their asses about that sort of thing.
Of course make sure you try a few out and find with that is has a fair ease-of-fretting and that the people you're buying it from can adjust the action; if it seems way too difficult to fret the strings don't buy it--it's probably a cheap instrument. Be prepared to have your finger tips of your left hand ripped apart for a good few months; the only way to get over that is to keep playing. I played guitar, fiddle, and banjo before I picked up the mandolin and it was still a fair challenge on my fingers. Of course if you've got the money to spend you can have one custom made for you with a wider fretboard and longer scale length if you want more room for your hand.
Oh and the other important little item I glossed over is the pick that you use. I've heard that blue grass chop players like hard picks but I use Jim Dunlop .60mm nylon picks which won't shatter, have a decent thickness and a nice amount of give in them for fast playing.
The A and F are the two varieties of Gibson style carved-top mandolin and the distinction is basically scroll or no scroll, which makes little difference to the sound. Much more important sound-wise is oval hole or f hole. The f-hole "F5" is reckoned to be louder and more penetrating than the oval hole "F4" The oval holes are more bassy, mellower, but not as loud.
All that aside, particularly over this side of the Atlantic, many more people play ITM on flat back, flat top, "Portuguese" mandolins.
The sound is very different much brighter and more trebly possibly excessively so in some cases. Carved tops go plunk, these go zing. It's down to personal preference and peer group pressure!
You'll have visited mandolincafe.com no doubt. A huge amount of useful info.
I have played a variety of mandolins and all I can advise is try out all the ones you can in all the music shops you can get to until you find the one that feels/sounds right - if it looks good too so much the better, but price and appearance are misleading. A relatively cheap mandolin can play and sound really good - plus you'll be less bothered about it getting little knocks. When you've played one for a year or so you will get an idea of what to upgrade to. I'd avoid round backs, just for ease of holding them and don't buy mail order/online - although you may strike lucky with eBay which is usually bulging with mandolins of all sorts of qualities - if eBay interests you I'd just monitor mandolins for a few weeks to get tuned in to who the good dealers are and what aspects of descriptions to look out for. Good luck - get started, it's a cool instrument
If you are just learning to play the mandolin, the most important aspect is probably playability. These are double coursed instruments and the technique of learning to play one is a little different from a guitar or banjo.
This means that you have to play the instrument before you buy it and that it should be set up well. The chances of this happening in rural Europe (or almost anywhere else) is slim but miracles do happen and occasionally a Pac Rim instrument will be set up well enough that the instrument is playable.
Once you have the basics down you can start to look for a better instrument. In fact the chances that a Crafter will play well is better than that of a Rover (which is a PacRim cheapo in the States) so if you have to buy blind, get one of those.
I don't know how well a small amp will be welcomed in your local session. I always turn the volume down on the one that is brought to ours when the player goes to get a pint (he never notices) as it is very annoying. Besides, if you are a beginner, you are more welcome with an un-amped mandolin than with, say, one of the Killer Bs (banjo, bouzouki, box - accordion or guitar, bodhran, bones or bombard), and you can learn the tunes easier that way without nasty stares as you noodle or make mistakes.
After a while, when you learn the instrument, you will get better volume and tone. A good mandolin can be heard in a smaller session but a lot of players tend to over play them in order to get volume.
I also disagree with the use of the thin pick. This may be a North American preference, but thin picks don't have enough mass to equally energize both courses and they don't have enough energy to bring out the full tone of a carved topped instrument. When I say thin, I really mean flexible as one of the most important aspects of a pick for mandolin is stiffness. (That is why many of the classical players use TS picks in spite of the law.) You can play all the ornaments at speed with a pick as thick as 2 mm if you have good technique and hold the pick very loosely.
The choice of flat topped vs. carved top mandolin is a matter of preference and availability. I like the full rich (and often loud) tone of a carved topped instrument, but then I was brought up on them. There are excellent flat topped instruments out there from all over the world. Ironically most of the PacRim instruments are carved on CNC machines because that means less labor, while the inexpensive Eastern European instruments are labor intensive (because that is cheaper) and tend to be flat topped . Well made instruments of either style have good tone and playabitlity.
Acoustic electric instruments sound like they are acoustic electric instruments. The Ovation, for example, is an OK acoustic instrument but it will never compete with a good Chinese acoustic (Eastman in the States, for example) because it has all those electronics and parts in it. An electrified acoustic has a hard time sounding like the acoustic sound when plugged in due to the limits of the technology. If you want to sound like the acoustic instrument only louder, you are better off with a micrphone setup.
Good Luck and don't forget to go to the mandolincafe.
Oh nice to see a mandolin discussion! I've been playing a roundback I inherited (literally), I always thought it was made in Italy. I'm getting to the stage where I think I could do with something better, hopefully easier to play and maybe a bit louder. I think it would be good if it was louder, though I haven't really the experience of being in a session. So I'm interested in what people have to say.
I once had a quick look at the mandolincafe, it seemed very American, where I'd be more interested in English and Irish playing. Perhaps I should I look around there more.
Everything you ever wanted to know about mandolin, including Irish music, luthiers, technique, classifieds, octave mandolins, bouzoukis and mandocellos (mandocelli...)...
There are quite a lot of Brits who participate in discussions on Mandolin Cafe, and there is a specific area of the forum for English and Irish folk music, so I'd definitely recommend giving it a go.
Regarding the original question, there is a definite difference in sound between mandolins with different shaped holes, or with arched or flat tops, although there seems to be some debate about whether the scroll makes a difference to the sound or not, I guess you'd have to play some different mandolins and decide for yourself.
In broad terms, the oval or round holes tend to have a bit more sustain and a more resonant, complex sound, whereas the f-hole mandolins give a louder, crisper sound with a faster decay.
Other factors that affect the sound are the way the maker has constructed the mandolin, the materials used, and of course the technique of the player!
I absolutely love my Paul Hathway large-bodied flat top mandolin. It has a Headway pickup unobtrusively installed but it doesn't affect the acoustic volume and superb tone (I very rarely use it through an amp). I tried loads out in the Hobgoblin shop in London, where I went intending to by a Fylde. The Hathway stuck to me and I couldn't let it go. Picks: don't go for too light, but sharpen them up! It makes such a difference. There's some excellent technical advice on these pages: http://www.marilynnmair.com/articles.shtml . Read what she says about holding the pick here http://www.marilynnmair.com/revisiting_tremolo.shtml and here http://www.marilynnmair.com/pick_technique.shtml
Tremendously helpful stuff - I'm also trying some Choro tunes
beware.. a thing called MAS hits mandolin players I now have 5. whatever you do do not be tempted to buy your 1st from Ebay even though there are cheap ! find a good shop and try before you buy,
So here's something weird: a couple days after starting asking for everyone's advice about starting with a mandolin, I went to visit my parents and told them I was thinking about learning the instrument. My dad went into his closet and pulled out a very old vintage bowl-back mandolin that apparently had belonged to my great uncle who I was named after! My dad had inherited it and so he gave it to me! I'm sure I'd seen it before and deep in my subconscious that was why I chose the mandolin over any of the other folk instruments I could have chosen, but still it was a nice surprise!
Mandolin
Mandolin
I'm thinking about learning the mandolin and I had a few questions... I've seen that that there are a couple different types and I was wondering if anyone who has experience in them could give their recomendations.
I've read that the "f-style" is used mostly for bluegrass and the "a-style" is more for Irish and other folk music. Is this true, and is there a difference in sound, or is this mostly aesthetic?
Also, I'm leaning towards an acoustic/electric, but I was wondering about how different that would sound from an acoustic model of the same brand?
I'd apreciate any comments and suggestions.
Sla'inte!
# Posted on August 11th 2007 by mistercliff
Re: Mandolin
The mandolins that one typically encounters from a luthier that makes Irish folk instruments are flat-back A-style mandolins with oval sound holes. I know the article about mandos in Irish folk on Wikipedia says that these are the most common types, but I think that's just due mainly to the ever-lasting influence of pionneers like Andy Irvine, Johnny Moynihan, and Paul Brady who used old '20s and '30s Gibson A(3)-styles. In the standard small music store in Ireland F and A styles with f-holes are the most readily available and I see guys in sessions using all different kinds. At leas the people that I play with are not particular about what kind you have.
The problem with the mandolin is that it can be difficult to find a reasonably-priced entry level instrument that has enough volume--because you're always going to be out-done but the banjo and fiddle players. The guy who taught me how to play mandolin has an old acoustic electric and he typically carts around a little amp with him depending on where he's playing (but he also plays tenor banjo).
I think a good starting instrument would be either a Crafter or Ovation acoustic electric mando. They're pretty similar to one another: spruce sound board, graphite body, rosewood finger board. The Ovation has a better pre-amp in it than the Crafter, but in Ireland the only time I saw an Ovation it was rather unfairly priced (at least compared to what you would pay Guitar Center in the States). You don't need to plug in to practice and if you're going to play in a session you can always use a little amp--if the people you're playing with don't have anything up their asses about that sort of thing.
Of course make sure you try a few out and find with that is has a fair ease-of-fretting and that the people you're buying it from can adjust the action; if it seems way too difficult to fret the strings don't buy it--it's probably a cheap instrument. Be prepared to have your finger tips of your left hand ripped apart for a good few months; the only way to get over that is to keep playing. I played guitar, fiddle, and banjo before I picked up the mandolin and it was still a fair challenge on my fingers. Of course if you've got the money to spend you can have one custom made for you with a wider fretboard and longer scale length if you want more room for your hand.
# Posted on August 11th 2007 by seán_óg
Re: Mandolin
Oh and the other important little item I glossed over is the pick that you use. I've heard that blue grass chop players like hard picks but I use Jim Dunlop .60mm nylon picks which won't shatter, have a decent thickness and a nice amount of give in them for fast playing.
# Posted on August 11th 2007 by seán_óg
Re: Mandolin
The A and F are the two varieties of Gibson style carved-top mandolin and the distinction is basically scroll or no scroll, which makes little difference to the sound. Much more important sound-wise is oval hole or f hole. The f-hole "F5" is reckoned to be louder and more penetrating than the oval hole "F4" The oval holes are more bassy, mellower, but not as loud.
All that aside, particularly over this side of the Atlantic, many more people play ITM on flat back, flat top, "Portuguese" mandolins.
The sound is very different much brighter and more trebly possibly excessively so in some cases. Carved tops go plunk, these go zing. It's down to personal preference and peer group pressure!
You'll have visited mandolincafe.com no doubt. A huge amount of useful info.
# Posted on August 11th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Mandolin
I have played a variety of mandolins and all I can advise is try out all the ones you can in all the music shops you can get to until you find the one that feels/sounds right - if it looks good too so much the better, but price and appearance are misleading. A relatively cheap mandolin can play and sound really good - plus you'll be less bothered about it getting little knocks. When you've played one for a year or so you will get an idea of what to upgrade to. I'd avoid round backs, just for ease of holding them and don't buy mail order/online - although you may strike lucky with eBay which is usually bulging with mandolins of all sorts of qualities - if eBay interests you I'd just monitor mandolins for a few weeks to get tuned in to who the good dealers are and what aspects of descriptions to look out for. Good luck - get started, it's a cool instrument
# Posted on August 11th 2007 by Eachann mac Bodach
Re: Mandolin
If you are just learning to play the mandolin, the most important aspect is probably playability. These are double coursed instruments and the technique of learning to play one is a little different from a guitar or banjo.
This means that you have to play the instrument before you buy it and that it should be set up well. The chances of this happening in rural Europe (or almost anywhere else) is slim but miracles do happen and occasionally a Pac Rim instrument will be set up well enough that the instrument is playable.
Once you have the basics down you can start to look for a better instrument. In fact the chances that a Crafter will play well is better than that of a Rover (which is a PacRim cheapo in the States) so if you have to buy blind, get one of those.
I don't know how well a small amp will be welcomed in your local session. I always turn the volume down on the one that is brought to ours when the player goes to get a pint (he never notices) as it is very annoying. Besides, if you are a beginner, you are more welcome with an un-amped mandolin than with, say, one of the Killer Bs (banjo, bouzouki, box - accordion or guitar, bodhran, bones or bombard), and you can learn the tunes easier that way without nasty stares as you noodle or make mistakes.
After a while, when you learn the instrument, you will get better volume and tone. A good mandolin can be heard in a smaller session but a lot of players tend to over play them in order to get volume.
I also disagree with the use of the thin pick. This may be a North American preference, but thin picks don't have enough mass to equally energize both courses and they don't have enough energy to bring out the full tone of a carved topped instrument. When I say thin, I really mean flexible as one of the most important aspects of a pick for mandolin is stiffness. (That is why many of the classical players use TS picks in spite of the law.) You can play all the ornaments at speed with a pick as thick as 2 mm if you have good technique and hold the pick very loosely.
The choice of flat topped vs. carved top mandolin is a matter of preference and availability. I like the full rich (and often loud) tone of a carved topped instrument, but then I was brought up on them. There are excellent flat topped instruments out there from all over the world. Ironically most of the PacRim instruments are carved on CNC machines because that means less labor, while the inexpensive Eastern European instruments are labor intensive (because that is cheaper) and tend to be flat topped . Well made instruments of either style have good tone and playabitlity.
Acoustic electric instruments sound like they are acoustic electric instruments. The Ovation, for example, is an OK acoustic instrument but it will never compete with a good Chinese acoustic (Eastman in the States, for example) because it has all those electronics and parts in it. An electrified acoustic has a hard time sounding like the acoustic sound when plugged in due to the limits of the technology. If you want to sound like the acoustic instrument only louder, you are better off with a micrphone setup.
Good Luck and don't forget to go to the mandolincafe.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on August 11th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: Mandolin
Thanks for the help! You're definitely all giving me a lot of good advice to think about!
# Posted on August 11th 2007 by mistercliff
Re: Mandolin
Oh nice to see a mandolin discussion! I've been playing a roundback I inherited (literally), I always thought it was made in Italy. I'm getting to the stage where I think I could do with something better, hopefully easier to play and maybe a bit louder. I think it would be good if it was louder, though I haven't really the experience of being in a session. So I'm interested in what people have to say.
I once had a quick look at the mandolincafe, it seemed very American, where I'd be more interested in English and Irish playing. Perhaps I should I look around there more.
# Posted on August 12th 2007 by lestow
Re: Mandolin
Everything you ever wanted to know about mandolin, including Irish music, luthiers, technique, classifieds, octave mandolins, bouzoukis and mandocellos (mandocelli...)...
Here:
http://www.mandolincafe.com
Enjoy
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
# Posted on August 12th 2007 by stv culchie
Re: Mandolin
There are quite a lot of Brits who participate in discussions on Mandolin Cafe, and there is a specific area of the forum for English and Irish folk music, so I'd definitely recommend giving it a go.
Regarding the original question, there is a definite difference in sound between mandolins with different shaped holes, or with arched or flat tops, although there seems to be some debate about whether the scroll makes a difference to the sound or not, I guess you'd have to play some different mandolins and decide for yourself.
In broad terms, the oval or round holes tend to have a bit more sustain and a more resonant, complex sound, whereas the f-hole mandolins give a louder, crisper sound with a faster decay.
Other factors that affect the sound are the way the maker has constructed the mandolin, the materials used, and of course the technique of the player!
Fliss
# Posted on August 12th 2007 by Fliss
Re: Mandolin
I absolutely love my Paul Hathway large-bodied flat top mandolin. It has a Headway pickup unobtrusively installed but it doesn't affect the acoustic volume and superb tone (I very rarely use it through an amp). I tried loads out in the Hobgoblin shop in London, where I went intending to by a Fylde. The Hathway stuck to me and I couldn't let it go. Picks: don't go for too light, but sharpen them up! It makes such a difference. There's some excellent technical advice on these pages: http://www.marilynnmair.com/articles.shtml . Read what she says about holding the pick here http://www.marilynnmair.com/revisiting_tremolo.shtml and here http://www.marilynnmair.com/pick_technique.shtml
Tremendously helpful stuff - I'm also trying some Choro tunes
# Posted on August 12th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Mandolin
beware.. a thing called MAS hits mandolin players I now have 5.
whatever you do do not be tempted to buy your 1st from Ebay even though there are cheap ! find a good shop and try before you buy,
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by kjm
Re: Mandolin
So here's something weird: a couple days after starting asking for everyone's advice about starting with a mandolin, I went to visit my parents and told them I was thinking about learning the instrument. My dad went into his closet and pulled out a very old vintage bowl-back mandolin that apparently had belonged to my great uncle who I was named after! My dad had inherited it and so he gave it to me! I'm sure I'd seen it before and deep in my subconscious that was why I chose the mandolin over any of the other folk instruments I could have chosen, but still it was a nice surprise!
# Posted on August 19th 2007 by mistercliff