Do backers get along well enough to decide on which chords work for a given tune in a given session?
I am a melody player. I have listened to & played in different sessions. ~ Some have had only melody players. ~ Some have had 1 or 2 backers playing chords. ~ Lastly are those with more than 2 backers.
Here is my opinion on how that works.
- My favorite has been all melody players at sessions during Willie Clancy week, at many sessions in Canada, & (rarely) here in the states.
- In the 2nd case I have quite enjoyed playing melody when the (1 or 2) backers come up with chords to their liking.
- In the final case it never matters how well the melody players do when the (3 or more) backers . . . are having a difficult time choosing chords. I must hasten to add that sometime multiple backers have done a beautiful job. These are not just guitar backers (Accordion, Electric Bass, Harp, Mandolin, Bouzouki . . .)
I suspect that if this little poddle gets woundup some will say ITM has nothing to do with chords. Fair enough. When I play in ITM sessions I can fully respect that type of sessions. With all due respect I would like to give consideration to sessions which do allow at least 1 (or 2) musicians providing accompaniment to the melody.
I generally do not play my guitar when other backers are present unless I have played with them enough to be able to synch our playing (I was going to say "synch our performances," but that would be a poor choice of words in this neighborhood). If I do choose to play with another backer that I am not familiar with, I will generally lay out the first time through tunes to see what they do, play quietly without a pick, or otherwise minimize the chance for clashes. Unfortunately, there are many other backers out there that do not do this, just proceed to back the tunes the way they always do no matter how many backers are present, and the devil take the hindmost. That is why TheMuse observes train wrecks in situations when 3 or more backers are present.
I play chords on a few tunes with my accordion, but generally leave my left hand stuff out when playing with backers.
Even though I enjoy backing, I am always learning new tunes because I generally find there are more backers in the session world than there is room for those backers, but always room for another melody player.
>Do backers get along well enough to decide on which chords work for a given tune in a given session?
First rule of backing: know the tunes, don't back tunes you don't know.
Second rule of backing: play either in the right key or on the beat, but at least one of the two is required.
My experience as a melody player is that I prefer at most one backer -- my experience as a backer keeps me from playing when there is another backer playing, except in the rarest of cases when the other backer and I have worked out the tune together.
Sometimes, if someone is noodling quietly as a backer, not really knowing the tunes, I'll just step in without asking (being the rude type, as previously determined in other threads).
The only time a backer of any type is absolutely necessary IMHO, is if the session is sufficiently weak it can't sustain the beat or tune, in which case the backer should play enough of the tune while backing and keeping the beat to keep people going. As fanciful as this last one sounds, it does happen.
I too prefer only one chord-playing backer at a time. But backers who have played together a long time can make a duet work--in some cases one plays chords while the other plays simple tones or drones. Even then, the strumming rhythms have to be fairly well synched or it gets muddy in a hurry.
But I've also had fun in really rowdy sessions with lots of extra noise, with all sorts of melody and backing going on. I suspect it's hard to throw off those of us who've done this long enough--we've played through mufflerless motorcycles, sirens, yelling on the PA system, etc. What's a few guitars compared to that?
I also wonder if it helps, as a melody player, to be familiar with chord progressions. I've played guitar longer than I've played fiddle, so I can hear the chord choices in my head while I'm playing melody. This also lets me suss out variations within the chords that are being played, often guessing where the backer is going before they get there. Of course, sometimes their choice jars against what I'm thinking, but that shouldn't be a surprise in a music as harmonically chameleon as this.
All that said, the clarity of unaccompanied melody in this music is a true joy, at least once in a while.
I've said this before (It's not often I'm not repeating myself here) but this is important. Try not to think of melody and chords as different things. Think instead of them both as strings of notes, either stacked or laid out.
The tunes don't merely suggest chords, they are chords, just laid out. And the chords aren't accompaniments to melody, they are melody, just stacked up.
Jazz musicians understand this implicitly and their ability to interchange strings and stacks of notes is their bread and butter.
Diddley music is different. We know the melody is king, so rather than have the strings and stacks interchangeable, we take the strings of note as the roots of it and embellish them with stacks of notes.
It's always annoyed me when people say there is no place for harmony in diddley music. What they really mean is, don't play more than two notes at once, a very different thing.
Listen to Bach's suites for unaccompanied cello. Bar the occasional double stop they are just single melody lines. Yet you "hear" harmony all the time. A good guitar player or pianist can add a lot to traditional Irish music, but the other side of the coin is that their intervention stops you from "listening privately," which you do when you hear just the melody. They are doing too much work for you and are stopping your brain from engaging in the processing of the music. They are spoonfeeding what you should be working at yourself. Can still be bloody good fun though!
And, within a certain length of tune, there is a line of notes that can be stacked-up instead so that the thread of notes moves through this stack, creating different harmony as it goes.
Michael, that really is a beautiful way to think of melody and harmony. Every time you post it, it stuns in its simplicity. Tell me you thought of it on your own....
Eliot, I will never think of you in the same light now. And not even q-tips are getting all the beer out of my keyboard, splorfed there thanks to you....
This actually gives me hope for our session. For a minute there I was caught in the middle.
We have a new guitar player who is quite good with melody. Still she is torn between playing melody or playing chords.
This is why I appreciate T. Eliot's comment ;
First rule of backing: know the tunes, don't back tunes you don't know. She can definitely appreciate that viewpoint.
So, as Bren says, 'It's all about space & listening to others.'
Cheers!
If, at a session, you listen to a tune being performed (sorry!) by all the “standard” ITM instruments with no “backer”, what do you hear other than the actual melody?
(i) basses on the boxes
(ii) drones & regulators of the pipes
(iii) clonking & clanging of the fiddles’ open strings
(iv) general spurious banjo-ness
(v) harpy stuff (if you are lucky!)
(vi) bodhrans (and other percussion instruments)
(vii) foot stomping and hupp-ing
(viii) Talking, smoking, drinking, walking, fighting, mobile ‘phones ringing, shouting, hummimg, vehicle engines, in car Hip Hop/ Raggamuffin/ Bhangra, police sirens, ‘bus starter bells et cetera…
Try it at your next session, block out the tune and hear all this stuff separately.
All these non-melody noises form a mellifluous envelope and perfectly appropriate backing (except viii sometimes!).
What the backer must do is listen to that and try and express something similar on their chosen instrument. Don’t think chord progression!
Also I think only one backer at a time is a must. If a six string devil twangler arrives, I quite often leave then to it. It’s not just the “chord” and rhythm strumming choices it’s dealing with another person’s approach to a highly personal and subtle thing.
And the litany “KNOW THE TUNE” is all important, even to the backer. Although if a tune goes round for a repeat you may “know” it by then and indulge in little droning, diad twanging or percussing.
I can guarantee you that if you are the only guitarist, and have refrained from playing because "you don't know the tune", at some point the fiddler will turn to you and shout "it's in G" (or the box player will shout "it's in D" for the same tune) and expect you to get involved.
Sessions are not always the oases of taste and sensitivity you'd expect to find after reading these discussions.
"Sessions are not always the oases of taste and sensitivity you'd expect to find after reading these discussions."
And long may it remain so - playing music is not a science, it's an expression of humanity and an manifestation of our very conciousness in all it's flawed beauty.
I am afraid I found a flaw in Michael's rather poetic description of stacking up the notes. I sat down at my piano, intending to play the notes of Far From Home, all stacked up. But it turns out there are 11 of them and I don't have enough fingers. So I stacked up all 7 notes of Bill Sullivan's Polka and played them, and unfortunately, it sounded pretty bad. So even though it sounds good in theory, in practice stacking up these notes really doesn't work very well.
"I am afraid I found a flaw in Michael's rather poetic description of stacking up the notes. I sat down at my piano, intending to play the notes of Far From Home, all stacked up. But it turns out there are 11 of them and I don't have enough fingers. So I stacked up all 7 notes of Bill Sullivan's Polka and played them, and unfortunately, it sounded pretty bad. So even though it sounds good in theory, in practice stacking up these notes really doesn't work very well."
AlBrown wrote "So I stacked up all 7 notes of Bill Sullivan's Polka and played them, and unfortunately, it sounded pretty bad. "
Of course they sounded bad. You don't eat all the items on the menu simultaneously. You select what is pleasing.
The job of any decent guitar player providing accompaniment, if there is to be accompaniment, is to chose which of the notes (plus or minus the occasional suitable extra one) in what combinations, order, and timing, will enhance whatever else is going on. No mean feat actually.
Melody & Chords
Melody & Chords
Do backers get along well enough to decide on which chords work for a given tune in a given session?
I am a melody player. I have listened to & played in different sessions. ~ Some have had only melody players. ~ Some have had 1 or 2 backers playing chords. ~ Lastly are those with more than 2 backers.
Here is my opinion on how that works.
- My favorite has been all melody players at sessions during Willie Clancy week, at many sessions in Canada, & (rarely) here in the states.
- In the 2nd case I have quite enjoyed playing melody when the (1 or 2) backers come up with chords to their liking.
- In the final case it never matters how well the melody players do when the (3 or more) backers . . . are having a difficult time choosing chords. I must hasten to add that sometime multiple backers have done a beautiful job. These are not just guitar backers (Accordion, Electric Bass, Harp, Mandolin, Bouzouki . . .)
I suspect that if this little poddle gets woundup some will say ITM has nothing to do with chords. Fair enough. When I play in ITM sessions I can fully respect that type of sessions. With all due respect I would like to give consideration to sessions which do allow at least 1 (or 2) musicians providing accompaniment to the melody.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Melody & Chords
It's all about space and listening to others
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Melody & Chords
I generally do not play my guitar when other backers are present unless I have played with them enough to be able to synch our playing (I was going to say "synch our performances," but that would be a poor choice of words in this neighborhood). If I do choose to play with another backer that I am not familiar with, I will generally lay out the first time through tunes to see what they do, play quietly without a pick, or otherwise minimize the chance for clashes. Unfortunately, there are many other backers out there that do not do this, just proceed to back the tunes the way they always do no matter how many backers are present, and the devil take the hindmost. That is why TheMuse observes train wrecks in situations when 3 or more backers are present.
I play chords on a few tunes with my accordion, but generally leave my left hand stuff out when playing with backers.
Even though I enjoy backing, I am always learning new tunes because I generally find there are more backers in the session world than there is room for those backers, but always room for another melody player.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Melody & Chords
>Do backers get along well enough to decide on which chords work for a given tune in a given session?
First rule of backing: know the tunes, don't back tunes you don't know.
Second rule of backing: play either in the right key or on the beat, but at least one of the two is required.
My experience as a melody player is that I prefer at most one backer -- my experience as a backer keeps me from playing when there is another backer playing, except in the rarest of cases when the other backer and I have worked out the tune together.
Sometimes, if someone is noodling quietly as a backer, not really knowing the tunes, I'll just step in without asking (being the rude type, as previously determined in other threads).
The only time a backer of any type is absolutely necessary IMHO, is if the session is sufficiently weak it can't sustain the beat or tune, in which case the backer should play enough of the tune while backing and keeping the beat to keep people going. As fanciful as this last one sounds, it does happen.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Eliot
Re: Melody & Chords
I too prefer only one chord-playing backer at a time. But backers who have played together a long time can make a duet work--in some cases one plays chords while the other plays simple tones or drones. Even then, the strumming rhythms have to be fairly well synched or it gets muddy in a hurry.
But I've also had fun in really rowdy sessions with lots of extra noise, with all sorts of melody and backing going on. I suspect it's hard to throw off those of us who've done this long enough--we've played through mufflerless motorcycles, sirens, yelling on the PA system, etc. What's a few guitars compared to that?
I also wonder if it helps, as a melody player, to be familiar with chord progressions. I've played guitar longer than I've played fiddle, so I can hear the chord choices in my head while I'm playing melody. This also lets me suss out variations within the chords that are being played, often guessing where the backer is going before they get there. Of course, sometimes their choice jars against what I'm thinking, but that shouldn't be a surprise in a music as harmonically chameleon as this.
All that said, the clarity of unaccompanied melody in this music is a true joy, at least once in a while.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Melody & Chords
I've said this before (It's not often I'm not repeating myself here) but this is important. Try not to think of melody and chords as different things. Think instead of them both as strings of notes, either stacked or laid out.
The tunes don't merely suggest chords, they are chords, just laid out. And the chords aren't accompaniments to melody, they are melody, just stacked up.
Jazz musicians understand this implicitly and their ability to interchange strings and stacks of notes is their bread and butter.
Diddley music is different. We know the melody is king, so rather than have the strings and stacks interchangeable, we take the strings of note as the roots of it and embellish them with stacks of notes.
It's always annoyed me when people say there is no place for harmony in diddley music. What they really mean is, don't play more than two notes at once, a very different thing.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Melody & Chords
Listen to Bach's suites for unaccompanied cello. Bar the occasional double stop they are just single melody lines. Yet you "hear" harmony all the time. A good guitar player or pianist can add a lot to traditional Irish music, but the other side of the coin is that their intervention stops you from "listening privately," which you do when you hear just the melody. They are doing too much work for you and are stopping your brain from engaging in the processing of the music. They are spoonfeeding what you should be working at yourself. Can still be bloody good fun though!
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Melody & Chords
LLig, it took me just an extra moment (and perhaps because I am not here much) to get that you are Michael Gill... thanks for making it so easy 8-P
Of course, if I spell my name backwards, including my middle initial...
T. Eliot
Life is not always so kind.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Eliot
Re: Melody & Chords
a brilliant explanation llig.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by pavlf
Re: Melody & Chords
And, within a certain length of tune, there is a line of notes that can be stacked-up instead so that the thread of notes moves through this stack, creating different harmony as it goes.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Melody & Chords
quite right andy, and all this needs to be discussed when srummers say they can get away without knowing the tune.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Melody & Chords
Amen to that.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Melody & Chords
Michael, that really is a beautiful way to think of melody and harmony. Every time you post it, it stuns in its simplicity. Tell me you thought of it on your own....
Eliot, I will never think of you in the same light now. And not even q-tips are getting all the beer out of my keyboard, splorfed there thanks to you....
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Melody & Chords
This actually gives me hope for our session. For a minute there I was caught in the middle.
We have a new guitar player who is quite good with melody. Still she is torn between playing melody or playing chords.
This is why I appreciate T. Eliot's comment ;
First rule of backing: know the tunes, don't back tunes you don't know. She can definitely appreciate that viewpoint.
So, as Bren says, 'It's all about space & listening to others.'
Cheers!
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Melody & Chords
I guess we don't want T. Eliot backing, and if backing, not backing up.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Melody & Chords
as 4 backwards names my heart bleeds...try going thru school with a name that backwards reads Lezo Nakah.....
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Melody & Chords
If, at a session, you listen to a tune being performed (sorry!) by all the “standard” ITM instruments with no “backer”, what do you hear other than the actual melody?
(i) basses on the boxes
(ii) drones & regulators of the pipes
(iii) clonking & clanging of the fiddles’ open strings
(iv) general spurious banjo-ness
(v) harpy stuff (if you are lucky!)
(vi) bodhrans (and other percussion instruments)
(vii) foot stomping and hupp-ing
(viii) Talking, smoking, drinking, walking, fighting, mobile ‘phones ringing, shouting, hummimg, vehicle engines, in car Hip Hop/ Raggamuffin/ Bhangra, police sirens, ‘bus starter bells et cetera…
Try it at your next session, block out the tune and hear all this stuff separately.
All these non-melody noises form a mellifluous envelope and perfectly appropriate backing (except viii sometimes!).
What the backer must do is listen to that and try and express something similar on their chosen instrument. Don’t think chord progression!
Also I think only one backer at a time is a must. If a six string devil twangler arrives, I quite often leave then to it. It’s not just the “chord” and rhythm strumming choices it’s dealing with another person’s approach to a highly personal and subtle thing.
And the litany “KNOW THE TUNE” is all important, even to the backer. Although if a tune goes round for a repeat you may “know” it by then and indulge in little droning, diad twanging or percussing.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Melody & Chords
I can guarantee you that if you are the only guitarist, and have refrained from playing because "you don't know the tune", at some point the fiddler will turn to you and shout "it's in G" (or the box player will shout "it's in D" for the same tune) and expect you to get involved.
Sessions are not always the oases of taste and sensitivity you'd expect to find after reading these discussions.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Bren
Re: Melody & Chords
Bren said it.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by poldebrun
Re: Melody & Chords
"Sessions are not always the oases of taste and sensitivity you'd expect to find after reading these discussions."
And long may it remain so - playing music is not a science, it's an expression of humanity and an manifestation of our very conciousness in all it's flawed beauty.
Plus it's great for getting p*ssed too.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Melody & Chords
Wow, actual wisdom. Here. Won't someone please, think of the children!
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Eliot
Re: Melody & Chords
I am afraid I found a flaw in Michael's rather poetic description of stacking up the notes. I sat down at my piano, intending to play the notes of Far From Home, all stacked up. But it turns out there are 11 of them and I don't have enough fingers. So I stacked up all 7 notes of Bill Sullivan's Polka and played them, and unfortunately, it sounded pretty bad. So even though it sounds good in theory, in practice stacking up these notes really doesn't work very well.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Melody & Chords
Al, as in most things in life, timing is everthing....
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Melody & Chords
Which, come to think of it, applies to Bren's sharp obersvation above, too.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Melody & Chords
"I am afraid I found a flaw in Michael's rather poetic description of stacking up the notes. I sat down at my piano, intending to play the notes of Far From Home, all stacked up. But it turns out there are 11 of them and I don't have enough fingers. So I stacked up all 7 notes of Bill Sullivan's Polka and played them, and unfortunately, it sounded pretty bad. So even though it sounds good in theory, in practice stacking up these notes really doesn't work very well."
Yes Al. That's what we call... "jazz"
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Melody & Chords
AlBrown wrote "So I stacked up all 7 notes of Bill Sullivan's Polka and played them, and unfortunately, it sounded pretty bad. "
Of course they sounded bad. You don't eat all the items on the menu simultaneously. You select what is pleasing.
The job of any decent guitar player providing accompaniment, if there is to be accompaniment, is to chose which of the notes (plus or minus the occasional suitable extra one) in what combinations, order, and timing, will enhance whatever else is going on. No mean feat actually.
Bye now
Keith
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by ocarolan