hi everyone, I'm new to musicianship, but I want to take it up as a personal challenge. Unfortunately I'm a more or less musically illiterate product of the American public school system, and getting started is proving to be more of a challenge than I was first thinking, but I'll fill you in on what really made me decide I needed to learn an instrument, and moreover why I want to learn to play celtic music in particular rather than going to the nearest music store, buying a cheap electric guitar, and learning to play a poor rendition of stairway to heaven like everyone else in my generation.
Recently my grandfather passed away, and my father was diagnosed with cancer given less than a year to live, effectively making me the last man of our line, I was driving home from the airport from the trip to NY visiting them on their deathbeds I really decided to take up musicianship as a hobby, I could continue on this tack going on about mortality and how life is too short not to challenge yourself and blah,blah, blah, but I'll cut right to the important bit, I've decided after lots of focused listening and a little research to take up the accordion, my real inspiration for the accordion in particular is it's relatively recent use in celtic/punk fusion by bands like Flogging Molly, Dropkick Murphys, and the Pogues, that's really the sound I'm going for, sort of nautical, innately rebellious, and decidedly Celtic, which is really something I feel is important as the last man in the family since heritage and ancestry are priceless, and I'll stop there before I go off on another tangent.
So now for my actual question, now that I've written you a short novel so everyone knows I'm serious and not just some punk on the internet with too much free time, can anyone recommend a reasonably priced instrument that isn't built out of the cheapest possible materials in a sweatshop in china and will facilitate learning a few basic Irish tunes?
My budget is limited for now, just because I don't want to go crazy spending, ideally I'd like to keep the purchase under $500 for a new instrument, I'd really prefer to start with a new instrument so that I'll have a good understanding of how it's supposed to work and I won't be faced with technical difficulties before I get to take my first crack at learning. I understand that I'm liable to want a more elaborate instrument once I learn the basics, but I want to learn the basics first, and learn them well before I go for anything advanced. Like I already said, formal education didn't cover a whole hell of a lot in terms of music, so I'm sure I've got a lot to learn before I even start, which leads me to my other question, does anyone know of a good book or method published online that'd help a complete novice get started once I acquire an instrument to learn on?
Thank you for reading through this and I look forward to any replies this might garner.
I'm sorry to read of your grandfather's death and your own Dad's diagnosis. My Dad was taken from us nine months ago due to cancer, and the loss is too great to describe. Music can be very healing, as you will discover.
Welcome to the Yellow Mustard, as it is sometimes known. You will learn a great deal about Irish traditional music on this site. Most of what you learn on this site will be informative. But there's a lot of blarney you must sift through, as well. Just keep your BS filter on "high" and you will be okay.
Please consider filling out your profile, so others know where you live. That is important, for you should go to your local session, sit in the corner with a cold pint, and watch what happens very carefully. Listen to everything, especially the accordion players. At a break, you can ask them questions. Most likely, they will be very happy to give you advice.
This music is about listening. You will need some good advice in buying an accordion, and then you will need some direct instruction. Your best resource will be the players at your local session. Then, come back here often to ask questions.
Bobby,
I went through the same search. You have to make some decisions that require you to know something about the instrument and how it is played. Most "Irish Button Accordions" are tuned one half-step apart. Usually these are B/C or C#/D. Since quite a lot of Celtic music is in the Key of D you will be able to play more easily with a C#/D instrument because it is played up and down the inside row of keys (similar to playing a harmonica). The B/C instrument is more versitile, but it is not as easy to play.
I looked into the Hohner "Double Ray" and the Hohner "Morgane", both of which are made in China. I even called Accordion-arama the salesman that I spoke didn't know anything about the instruments that he sold. The price was ok, but he couldn't even tell me the bass arrangement, how many voices, or whether it was tuned "Wet" or "Dry"! He said to me "I can't teach you how to play it" So, I looked elsewhere.
I ordered an IrishDancemaster from irishdancemaster.com
What I ordered was:
23 button 8 bass B/C accordion tuned Dry with the Joe Burke Bass arrangement in Black.
Michael of IrishDancemaster is very helpful. He assembles these instruments by hand form parts. He gets the bodies and bellows from China, but the reeds are Italian, and there are several quality choices. He tunes them, and adjusts the action to make them easier to play. His prices are somewhat higher than your ideal budget, but I think that I will get a much better instrument than the Hohners, and will be set-up just as I want it. His most inexpensive accordion is about $800 which is less than the street-price of the Hohners.
You might also look into the Weltmeister, I have heard that they have a decent beginner box, but I don't know anything about it.
This is also my first post, and I hope that you find some of this information useful.
GoatBasher
My advise would be to do much research, get an instructional video, ( I bought "P.J. Hernon's How to Play the B and C Button Accordion")
The first thing you need to do is work out what TYPE of accordion you want to learn to play.
The Pogues' and Flogging Molly's accordionists play PIANO accordion - not the B/C or C#/D instruments that GoatBasher is referring to. He's talking about BUTTON accordions, which are a whole different beast.
If you don't know a lot about music the explanations of the differences may not mean a lot to you, but there's a world of difference when you come to play the two types of instrument. Do some searches on past discussions on this board and you'll find loads of information. There's a pretty good search facility.
Greg's advice is very good - find a local session if you can and talk to the players. Also, listen to as much celtic music as you can and concentrate on the sound you want to emulate. Listen to some Prodigals - that's a B/C box playing similar music to the other bands you mentioned. The differences are subtle, but important. I played the piano for years, but chose to learn button box because of the sound it produces. And I chose a B/C because it can play the widest range of tunes, even though it's one of the hardest to master (that's part of the fun ).
You can also try e-mailing members of this site directly (click on the user name at the end of a post - you'll need to be logged on). If you can get an experienced player to come with you when you go to purchase an instrument you'll possibly save yourself a world of grief. Some cheap instruments will hold you back in trying to learn, and might even put you off for life!
It'd also be a good idea to get a simple book on music theory from the library - a kid's one would be fine. That way you'll understand more about what you're thinking of buying (like why a B/C box is tuned B/C for a start...it's got nothing to do with a 'half step'!)
Hi Bobby, You might consider getting hold of a tin whistle first of all just to get the basics - the difference between a jig, reel hornpipe or polka, different keys etc.They're only a few $ (in your money). But keep tuning in here, you'll learn a lot and maybe also get a lot of encouragement.
I sell used instruments in the UK, so probably too far away for you so I can give you some advice without the need to try to make a sale.
There is already a lot of good advice posted, so I'll not repeat that.
One big pitfall that you should try to avoid is choosing an instrument without trying it first. Try to locate some musicians local to you and chat about your aspirations. You will be very unlucky if box players that you meet are not willing to let you try their instrument. This is by far the best way of choosing between B/C C#/D or piano accordion. You will know when you get the right one in your hands.
Once you have decided the system then you are down to choice of make. Don't rule out Hohner, but do rule out buying from a shop like the one Goatbasher described. You need a knowledgeable seller who is able to give good advice.
a mengascini accordion is a very good starter accordion. Easy to play and its relativley cheap for an accordion. i would seriously reccomend not to buy hohner accordions. These ar very off putting for any beginner due to its clacky buttons. i usually got my fingers stuck in the button holes when playing it. Another good maker is castagnari however these are a dearer price to mengascini. good websites for accordions include WWW.ALLABOUTACCORDIONS.COM, CASTAGNARI.COM AND BUTTONBOX.COM
Hi Bobby
I too am setting out on this long life time journey to play the box and yesterday I was actually had my actual hands on one for the first time .I looked on the RTE web site in the privacy of my own home http://www.rte.ie/tv/thefullset/ and now it feels much better .
Tooty Flute says it looks natural in my hands like I played one in a previous life ,it doesn’t sound like it and I don’t expect it to sound like that for some time but the longest journey is one that is never started to quote Bilbo Baggins and I am a patient man
I contacted the chap at Irishdancemaster sounds a decent bloke and not that far from you might be worth a visit.
Good luck to both of us I think
I like mcknowall's advice. Buy something cheap and easy at first, like a harmonica (same layout and "push/pull" pattern as a row on an accordion). That way if you happen to decide early on that this isn't for you, you won't have already invested in something expensive. Also, as you start to become aquainted with the music you may find your tastes change and you are more interested in a different instrument or style altogether. The real world of irish dance tunes is a different game from the celtic/punk fusion CDs you've been listening to.
It doesn't matter so much which instrument you start with because your biggest challenge will be getting the tunes and rythyms into your head. You'll be able to transfer them "by ear," with moderate effort, to an accordion later on. I bought my C#/D accordion only 3 months ago, but I am making fast progress with it because the tunes I already know on fiddle are easy to pick up.
And IMO the basic mechanics of playing accordion aren't that difficult. The school system failed you musically, but if you're like most kids you probably spent a billion hours playing HALO or Counterstrike, and have blazing hand-eye coordination when it comes to pushing buttons. I think this is totally transferrable to a button accordion.
I don't know that I can agree with assertions that the BC box is a hard instrument to learn. I think in terms of note production, any accordion is far easier than learning to apply the right pressure to the bow, in the right direction and position on fiddle, or coordinating bellows movement, bag control and chanter grip simultaneously on the pipes. As for BC being harder than C#D, i don't think this is true either. BC works on learning triangles of notes, rather than rows. Both are different approaches, but neither is inherently more difficult.
Now to give some information that may be of some importance to BobbyL (which is the point of the discussion). You may have some luck getting an old Hohner and then fixing it up. I know people have had some success with this and end up getting a nice sounding box (although not with great action) for quite a low price. Conversely, others have poured much time and money into this endeavour without reward. I'd have to second advice about finding a local box player to help you out. The best way to learn is also face-to-face, although it is not always possible.
Good Luck, and I'm sorry you're not coming to this situation in more fortunate circumstances,
kjay
Bobby - I have a C/D button accordion hardly used, because I play the Harmonica, I 'sympathise with pull and draw to suck and blaw. which leaves me breathless after 5 minutes. If you can pay the postage, you can happily take over the accordion. Bless you for your losses.
C G Lunny
17 East Princes Street
Rothesay
Isle of Bute
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Bobby, that's a sweet offer. It means you'd learn one of the more lifting systems, having to do a lot of work on the one D row, like a lot of the early one row players. Later you could decide to move on to something else, but 'hedge.teacher's offer is a great way to start.
You've had a lot of good recommendations here. You want a good start and listening is the best you could get, as well as maybe getting out to some sessions and checking out what people are playing. You might even decide that the instrument for you is a piano accordion? Maybe you have a previous background in keyboards, the piano? You will come across biases with regards to the melodeon or button accordion, all that stuff about keys ~ D being one of the rows on several options, and B/C being another common two-row set-up. I'm biased toward the D-centric, but if you go out and listen, at live events and to good recordings, and ask more questions, you'll build up the experience to better make a decision on your own, developing your own preferences / biases...
Music is great therapy for the soul... Best of luck...
just my own opinion - Hohner Morganes are infintely superior to Double Rays Ericas and Pokerworks in respect of reeds, bellows and (especially) keyboard. I've played one or two and they seem consistent in quality. I suspect they're made by the old Delicia outfit in Czech, but they could easily be Chinese. I'm not certain. So what. On the B/C the basses aren't much use as shipped, but I wouldn't let that worry me too much if I was looking for a nice B/C to start learning on.
BobbyL , whatever you decide to play, always try before you buy, and take along am informed and intelligent adviser when you do so. Finding the right adviser might be as hard as finding the instrument...but could make the deal less expensive in the long run.
"I looked into the Hohner "Double Ray" and the Hohner "Morgane", both of which are made in China"
From where did you get the information that the Morgane is manufactured in China?
I have Morgane B/C and have had long discussions with the Hohner factory in Germany when I sent it back to get it's basses converted. I got the impression that it is manufactured in Germany and it also has the "Made in Germany" tag in it as well.
The Hohner factory changed permanently the bass configuration since, so that the Morgane has now the Paolo Soprani bass layout which is the same as in Double Ray.
The Morgane is btw pretty much the same as the old Erikas in the inside. So much that even the reed blocks from my 1910-1920 Erika are interchangable with just a small modification. So I doubt that it has much connection with the Delicia as said above, rather it seems that they are giving new life to their old succesful concept. What millionyears_bc says about the better button action and other stuff is true.
PS. The one negative thing about the Morgane is the tuning which is a bit too wet for my taste. But taking how willing they were to change the basses I am pretty sure that it is possible to get any tremolo from the factory with a special order.
wow, thanks everyone for all the quick responses, I've done a lot of listening and watching videos on youtube trying to get a better idea of the differences in sound between piano and button accordions, and based on what I've seen and heard so far I think both are wonderful sounds, choosing which to pursue is really going to come down to economics and finding a teacher.
Thankfully I found out where my local session is here in Austin, and that it happens every sunday night, so I'll be down to check it out tonight, if things go well I'm going to make a habit of making it down there every week.
bc_box_player- Thanks for the tip to listen to the prodigals, I hit the used record store near me this afternoon and picked up Go On, fun album, and quite informative for me, thanks for the recommendation.
Key Maniac Lad- I tried to snag a whistle today, but both music shops I tried getting to were closed with it being sunday and all, but I'll try again after work tomorrow, your suggestion makes a lot of good sense to me.
mcknowall- thanks for the tip, I'll probably try a harmonica I learn a little bit on a tin whistle... I really have a lot to learn before I delve into an instrument I'm not even entirely sure how to operate.
silver bow- so all those years of perfect headshots are actually going to amount to something eh?
It's just a conjecture bobby, but something has to explain why this thing is easier for me to learn than most.
A more experienced player might find my argument to be stupid, but it seems to me that anyone who's been playing Mario Bros and the like since 1989 should have an advantage when it comes to complex patterns and timing and pressure of button-pushing. The "feel" of the keys just reminds me of a game controller.
I would encourage you to spend the time to find and play the various styles of accordion as well.
I'm a piano accordion player, and love it.
I can also tell you that the majority (not all) "Irish" accordion players that you run into, and many other "Irish" musicians will run down the piano accordion or tell you that it's totally inappropriate for the music. Don't listen to them. It's not the instrument, it's how it's played, and there are some GREAT players of the piano accordion in Irish music.
BobbyL, if you like the accordion start with it, there is no need to first learn other instruments. Learning the whistle or harmonica takes a lot of time too and there is almost nothing you gain by first learning them. In all, there are no short cuts to learn any instrument.
The diatonic accordion is a pretty simple instrument once you get the hang of it. All diatonic accordions with different tunings use the same logic for the notes. On each row, on the bellows push, you have nothing but three different notes in a couple of octaves (C row C-E-G) and the rest of the four notes of the 7-note diatonic scale in the pull direction. For the B/C the B row is one half step lower but uses the same logic and from there you get the missing sharps and flats.
When I started with the B/C I though I would be needing a tabulature program which converts the notes to button markings, but once I understood the principle I took me a couple of days to noodle tunes directly from the dots.
Talking about dots here will usually generate a certain type of discussion so I only say that knowing the dots won't hinder you from learning with other means as well. Instead, it will anchor you accordion keyboard to something concrete and this speedens up the learning process IM(H)O.
>...there are some GREAT players of the piano accordion in Irish music.
Yes, and Alan Kelly is one of them. After listening to him I have started to wonder if the only thing that speaks for the diatonic accordion over CBAs and PAs is the small size of the diatonic accordion.
Having an instrument that does not overpower everything else at a session might also be regarded as being a sign of taste, tact and discretion !
You know the old definition of a gentleman ? Someone who knows how to play the bagpipes, but chooses not to ! Obviously refering to the Great Pipes, not the small, or the uillean.
I have a lot of sympathy to our original poster; I recently lost a good friend, the lady who introduced me to Irish Traditional Music, and I do feel there is a heritage to learn and try and pass on; just remember that it is not something you can pick up and be compitent at in five minutes - those bands you admire are firstly highly proficient in their music, and secondly have chosen to take it in a particular direction - as you learn more about ITM you may feel that your original choice of instrument and style was not the most appropriate for you. Take it slow, and enjoy the learning process. Also remember that some of the people who post on this forum are incredibly old farts with beer bellies and long grey beards, with an accumulation of wisdom that is not easily acquired, but which they will be happy to share with you.
a bit broader, but wasn't there some discussion on this last week? I thoguht it was a very nice thread on thoughts about inexpensive boxes etc.
Not trying to be inhospitable since I was there a couple of years ago and the folks here were most helpful. But there have been some really informative threads about selection of instruments in the last four months.
Perhaps BobbyL should search a bit since GP, dinn, Al Brown and MYBC had some very nice thoughts. You might get some of my two sense also.
In one of my very early box questions, Peter Browne was even kind enough to contribute.
I got in and listened to my local session last night, actually probably the first time I've actually enjoyed myself since my father broke his bad news to me, there was a guy playing a C/D box and he seemed happy to help but echoed the opinion that learning on a harmonica would be a prudent choice... but I'm inclined to agree with risto that if this is going to be my first instrument then why not just learn on it?
I could just be naive, but that's what I was thinking when I first started seriously thinking about playing.
I found a piano accordion in a local thrift shop, it's a 1931 12 bass Hohner, the guy running the shop happened to play a little and squeezed out a quick tune, and it sounded good to me, I don't have enough experience to be sure if the sound was quite right, but it sounded good to me, and I think that's what's important, I also fiddled with it for a few minutes, played a few notes, no idea what they were, but I made myself laugh, in a good way. I think I'm going to buy it.
After another day of listening and hearing how easily a fiddle can totally drown out a C/D button accordion in a fairly quiet pub the louder piano accordion seems like a better choice. Especially since my aspiration is to learn traditional music primarily to get an understanding of it, but more actively play the traditional/punk fusion stuff I'm honestly more fond of. By no means am I belittling traditional music, it's obvious how important a firm grounding in a traditional style is to my favorite fusion bands, but since the application of traditional music that interests me most involves electric guitars and drums, I think I'm going to go the louder piano route.
If for no other reason, I think I'm going to give this old Hohner a shot because the song that made me cry into my whiskey while I was on the bender that ended with my deciding to take up music was played on a piano model.. I think you'd have to be a serious jerk to deny that Whispers the Wind is one of the best songs that's been recorded in the last 10 years... on top of the fact that it can make you shed tears into your drink, that's saying something.
N9YTY- I've already experienced some of the sentiment you're talking about, but I'm only half Irish, I can blame the Italian side if it comes to that.
Guernsey Pete- Thanks for the insight, as a skinny young punk with a scrappy black goatee I appreciate the body of wisdom you guys can't seem to stop talking about, I'm very glad I found this board.
I caved and bought the old Hohner I found, it's a little heavy but I'm having a blast just screwing around with it even though I have no idea what the hell I'm doing... I think my housemates are going to skin me if I don't improve my skills sometime soon though... lol
Typically fiddles do NOT drown out accordions, unless you have a VERY aggressive fiddler combined with a very shy accordion (which can be the case at the Austin session, where the fiddlers tend to be more experienced than the box playersf).
I guess BobbyL has already made his choice, but if there's anyone else out there, don't make your piano vs. button choice based solely on volume--a superloud piano accordion can really p*ss people off, and if you're just learning, the last thing you want is to be the loudest person in the room. (And if you do pick up piano accordion, you might consider getting a small one. In a band setting, you can always amplify.)
Decide based on whose style you like. Or decide based on the fact that a smallish button accordion will fit under the seat in front of you on an airplane, and will get you fewer dirty looks from hardcore traditionalists. (It's not that one can't play Irish music on piano accordion. It's just that the percentage of people playing Irish music badly on piano accordion is higher than the percentage of people playing Irish music badly on button box, which gives the piano accordion a bad name.)
Celtic rock may be about volume, but traditional music is NOT. And to do the "celtic rock" thing really well, you need to have a good grasp of the trad.
Completely true Hg. As far as learning , some of the best advice that I got on this forum and from others was to always keep the instrument out so it was easier to see, get to, and pick up ...and the idea of "playing " your instrument instead of "practicing" seems to help a lot of folks as well.
tim
Re: "Having an instrument that does not overpower everything else at a session might also be regarded as being a sign of taste, tact and discretion !"
Interesting. I play with several other box players, they on their nice little Saltarelle's and me on my hohner 72-bass piano accordion. They are, individually, louder than I am. You know, you don't have to pull out all stops and squeeze the bellows like you're trying to push sausage out of a pig. Again, not the instrument, but how it's played. Stop spreading stereotypes.
New musician seeking accordion advice
New musician seeking accordion advice
hi everyone, I'm new to musicianship, but I want to take it up as a personal challenge. Unfortunately I'm a more or less musically illiterate product of the American public school system, and getting started is proving to be more of a challenge than I was first thinking, but I'll fill you in on what really made me decide I needed to learn an instrument, and moreover why I want to learn to play celtic music in particular rather than going to the nearest music store, buying a cheap electric guitar, and learning to play a poor rendition of stairway to heaven like everyone else in my generation.
Recently my grandfather passed away, and my father was diagnosed with cancer given less than a year to live, effectively making me the last man of our line, I was driving home from the airport from the trip to NY visiting them on their deathbeds I really decided to take up musicianship as a hobby, I could continue on this tack going on about mortality and how life is too short not to challenge yourself and blah,blah, blah, but I'll cut right to the important bit, I've decided after lots of focused listening and a little research to take up the accordion, my real inspiration for the accordion in particular is it's relatively recent use in celtic/punk fusion by bands like Flogging Molly, Dropkick Murphys, and the Pogues, that's really the sound I'm going for, sort of nautical, innately rebellious, and decidedly Celtic, which is really something I feel is important as the last man in the family since heritage and ancestry are priceless, and I'll stop there before I go off on another tangent.
So now for my actual question, now that I've written you a short novel so everyone knows I'm serious and not just some punk on the internet with too much free time, can anyone recommend a reasonably priced instrument that isn't built out of the cheapest possible materials in a sweatshop in china and will facilitate learning a few basic Irish tunes?
My budget is limited for now, just because I don't want to go crazy spending, ideally I'd like to keep the purchase under $500 for a new instrument, I'd really prefer to start with a new instrument so that I'll have a good understanding of how it's supposed to work and I won't be faced with technical difficulties before I get to take my first crack at learning. I understand that I'm liable to want a more elaborate instrument once I learn the basics, but I want to learn the basics first, and learn them well before I go for anything advanced. Like I already said, formal education didn't cover a whole hell of a lot in terms of music, so I'm sure I've got a lot to learn before I even start, which leads me to my other question, does anyone know of a good book or method published online that'd help a complete novice get started once I acquire an instrument to learn on?
Thank you for reading through this and I look forward to any replies this might garner.
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by BobbyL
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Bobby L,
I'm sorry to read of your grandfather's death and your own Dad's diagnosis. My Dad was taken from us nine months ago due to cancer, and the loss is too great to describe. Music can be very healing, as you will discover.
Welcome to the Yellow Mustard, as it is sometimes known. You will learn a great deal about Irish traditional music on this site. Most of what you learn on this site will be informative. But there's a lot of blarney you must sift through, as well. Just keep your BS filter on "high" and you will be okay.
Please consider filling out your profile, so others know where you live. That is important, for you should go to your local session, sit in the corner with a cold pint, and watch what happens very carefully. Listen to everything, especially the accordion players. At a break, you can ask them questions. Most likely, they will be very happy to give you advice.
This music is about listening. You will need some good advice in buying an accordion, and then you will need some direct instruction. Your best resource will be the players at your local session. Then, come back here often to ask questions.
Good luck to you.
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Bobby,
I went through the same search. You have to make some decisions that require you to know something about the instrument and how it is played. Most "Irish Button Accordions" are tuned one half-step apart. Usually these are B/C or C#/D. Since quite a lot of Celtic music is in the Key of D you will be able to play more easily with a C#/D instrument because it is played up and down the inside row of keys (similar to playing a harmonica). The B/C instrument is more versitile, but it is not as easy to play.
I looked into the Hohner "Double Ray" and the Hohner "Morgane", both of which are made in China. I even called Accordion-arama the salesman that I spoke didn't know anything about the instruments that he sold. The price was ok, but he couldn't even tell me the bass arrangement, how many voices, or whether it was tuned "Wet" or "Dry"! He said to me "I can't teach you how to play it" So, I looked elsewhere.
I ordered an IrishDancemaster from irishdancemaster.com
What I ordered was:
23 button 8 bass B/C accordion tuned Dry with the Joe Burke Bass arrangement in Black.
Michael of IrishDancemaster is very helpful. He assembles these instruments by hand form parts. He gets the bodies and bellows from China, but the reeds are Italian, and there are several quality choices. He tunes them, and adjusts the action to make them easier to play. His prices are somewhat higher than your ideal budget, but I think that I will get a much better instrument than the Hohners, and will be set-up just as I want it. His most inexpensive accordion is about $800 which is less than the street-price of the Hohners.
You might also look into the Weltmeister, I have heard that they have a decent beginner box, but I don't know anything about it.
This is also my first post, and I hope that you find some of this information useful.
GoatBasher
My advise would be to do much research, get an instructional video, ( I bought "P.J. Hernon's How to Play the B and C Button Accordion")
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by GoatBasher
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Bobby,
).
The first thing you need to do is work out what TYPE of accordion you want to learn to play.
The Pogues' and Flogging Molly's accordionists play PIANO accordion - not the B/C or C#/D instruments that GoatBasher is referring to. He's talking about BUTTON accordions, which are a whole different beast.
If you don't know a lot about music the explanations of the differences may not mean a lot to you, but there's a world of difference when you come to play the two types of instrument. Do some searches on past discussions on this board and you'll find loads of information. There's a pretty good search facility.
Greg's advice is very good - find a local session if you can and talk to the players. Also, listen to as much celtic music as you can and concentrate on the sound you want to emulate. Listen to some Prodigals - that's a B/C box playing similar music to the other bands you mentioned. The differences are subtle, but important. I played the piano for years, but chose to learn button box because of the sound it produces. And I chose a B/C because it can play the widest range of tunes, even though it's one of the hardest to master (that's part of the fun
You can also try e-mailing members of this site directly (click on the user name at the end of a post - you'll need to be logged on). If you can get an experienced player to come with you when you go to purchase an instrument you'll possibly save yourself a world of grief. Some cheap instruments will hold you back in trying to learn, and might even put you off for life!
It'd also be a good idea to get a simple book on music theory from the library - a kid's one would be fine. That way you'll understand more about what you're thinking of buying (like why a B/C box is tuned B/C for a start...it's got nothing to do with a 'half step'!)
Best of luck with it, whatever you choose.
Eno
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Hi Bobby, You might consider getting hold of a tin whistle first of all just to get the basics - the difference between a jig, reel hornpipe or polka, different keys etc.They're only a few $ (in your money). But keep tuning in here, you'll learn a lot and maybe also get a lot of encouragement.
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Hi BobbyL
I sell used instruments in the UK, so probably too far away for you so I can give you some advice without the need to try to make a sale.
There is already a lot of good advice posted, so I'll not repeat that.
One big pitfall that you should try to avoid is choosing an instrument without trying it first. Try to locate some musicians local to you and chat about your aspirations. You will be very unlucky if box players that you meet are not willing to let you try their instrument. This is by far the best way of choosing between B/C C#/D or piano accordion. You will know when you get the right one in your hands.
Once you have decided the system then you are down to choice of make. Don't rule out Hohner, but do rule out buying from a shop like the one Goatbasher described. You need a knowledgeable seller who is able to give good advice.
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by Theo Gibb
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
a mengascini accordion is a very good starter accordion. Easy to play and its relativley cheap for an accordion. i would seriously reccomend not to buy hohner accordions. These ar very off putting for any beginner due to its clacky buttons. i usually got my fingers stuck in the button holes when playing it. Another good maker is castagnari however these are a dearer price to mengascini. good websites for accordions include WWW.ALLABOUTACCORDIONS.COM, CASTAGNARI.COM AND BUTTONBOX.COM
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by today
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Start small mate, a harmonica is a very small cheap accordian, as you reach its limits you will know what to do next.
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by mcknowall
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Hi Bobby
and now it feels much better .
I too am setting out on this long life time journey to play the box and yesterday I was actually had my actual hands on one for the first time .I looked on the RTE web site in the privacy of my own home http://www.rte.ie/tv/thefullset/
Tooty Flute says it looks natural in my hands like I played one in a previous life ,it doesn’t sound like it and I don’t expect it to sound like that for some time but the longest journey is one that is never started to quote Bilbo Baggins and I am a patient man
I contacted the chap at Irishdancemaster sounds a decent bloke and not that far from you might be worth a visit.
Good luck to both of us I think
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
I like mcknowall's advice. Buy something cheap and easy at first, like a harmonica (same layout and "push/pull" pattern as a row on an accordion). That way if you happen to decide early on that this isn't for you, you won't have already invested in something expensive. Also, as you start to become aquainted with the music you may find your tastes change and you are more interested in a different instrument or style altogether. The real world of irish dance tunes is a different game from the celtic/punk fusion CDs you've been listening to.
It doesn't matter so much which instrument you start with because your biggest challenge will be getting the tunes and rythyms into your head. You'll be able to transfer them "by ear," with moderate effort, to an accordion later on. I bought my C#/D accordion only 3 months ago, but I am making fast progress with it because the tunes I already know on fiddle are easy to pick up.
And IMO the basic mechanics of playing accordion aren't that difficult. The school system failed you musically, but if you're like most kids you probably spent a billion hours playing HALO or Counterstrike, and have blazing hand-eye coordination when it comes to pushing buttons. I think this is totally transferrable to a button accordion.
My 2 cents.
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by polkageist
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
I don't know that I can agree with assertions that the BC box is a hard instrument to learn. I think in terms of note production, any accordion is far easier than learning to apply the right pressure to the bow, in the right direction and position on fiddle, or coordinating bellows movement, bag control and chanter grip simultaneously on the pipes. As for BC being harder than C#D, i don't think this is true either. BC works on learning triangles of notes, rather than rows. Both are different approaches, but neither is inherently more difficult.
Now to give some information that may be of some importance to BobbyL (which is the point of the discussion). You may have some luck getting an old Hohner and then fixing it up. I know people have had some success with this and end up getting a nice sounding box (although not with great action) for quite a low price. Conversely, others have poured much time and money into this endeavour without reward. I'd have to second advice about finding a local box player to help you out. The best way to learn is also face-to-face, although it is not always possible.
Good Luck, and I'm sorry you're not coming to this situation in more fortunate circumstances,
kjay
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Bobby - I have a C/D button accordion hardly used, because I play the Harmonica, I 'sympathise with pull and draw to suck and blaw. which leaves me breathless after 5 minutes. If you can pay the postage, you can happily take over the accordion. Bless you for your losses.
C G Lunny
17 East Princes Street
Rothesay
Isle of Bute
Scotland PA20 9DL
00441700 503 305
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by hedge.teacher
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Bobby, that's a sweet offer. It means you'd learn one of the more lifting systems, having to do a lot of work on the one D row, like a lot of the early one row players. Later you could decide to move on to something else, but 'hedge.teacher's offer is a great way to start.
You've had a lot of good recommendations here. You want a good start and listening is the best you could get, as well as maybe getting out to some sessions and checking out what people are playing. You might even decide that the instrument for you is a piano accordion? Maybe you have a previous background in keyboards, the piano? You will come across biases with regards to the melodeon or button accordion, all that stuff about keys ~ D being one of the rows on several options, and B/C being another common two-row set-up. I'm biased toward the D-centric, but if you go out and listen, at live events and to good recordings, and ask more questions, you'll build up the experience to better make a decision on your own, developing your own preferences / biases...
Music is great therapy for the soul... Best of luck...
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
McKnowall's idea is a great one.
about Hohners
just my own opinion - Hohner Morganes are infintely superior to Double Rays Ericas and Pokerworks in respect of reeds, bellows and (especially) keyboard. I've played one or two and they seem consistent in quality. I suspect they're made by the old Delicia outfit in Czech, but they could easily be Chinese. I'm not certain. So what. On the B/C the basses aren't much use as shipped, but I wouldn't let that worry me too much if I was looking for a nice B/C to start learning on.
BobbyL , whatever you decide to play, always try before you buy, and take along am informed and intelligent adviser when you do so. Finding the right adviser might be as hard as finding the instrument...but could make the deal less expensive in the long run.
Good luck
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
"I looked into the Hohner "Double Ray" and the Hohner "Morgane", both of which are made in China"
From where did you get the information that the Morgane is manufactured in China?
I have Morgane B/C and have had long discussions with the Hohner factory in Germany when I sent it back to get it's basses converted. I got the impression that it is manufactured in Germany and it also has the "Made in Germany" tag in it as well.
The Hohner factory changed permanently the bass configuration since, so that the Morgane has now the Paolo Soprani bass layout which is the same as in Double Ray.
The Morgane is btw pretty much the same as the old Erikas in the inside. So much that even the reed blocks from my 1910-1920 Erika are interchangable with just a small modification. So I doubt that it has much connection with the Delicia as said above, rather it seems that they are giving new life to their old succesful concept. What millionyears_bc says about the better button action and other stuff is true.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by Risto
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
PS. The one negative thing about the Morgane is the tuning which is a bit too wet for my taste. But taking how willing they were to change the basses I am pretty sure that it is possible to get any tremolo from the factory with a special order.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by Risto
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
wow, thanks everyone for all the quick responses, I've done a lot of listening and watching videos on youtube trying to get a better idea of the differences in sound between piano and button accordions, and based on what I've seen and heard so far I think both are wonderful sounds, choosing which to pursue is really going to come down to economics and finding a teacher.
Thankfully I found out where my local session is here in Austin, and that it happens every sunday night, so I'll be down to check it out tonight, if things go well I'm going to make a habit of making it down there every week.
bc_box_player- Thanks for the tip to listen to the prodigals, I hit the used record store near me this afternoon and picked up Go On, fun album, and quite informative for me, thanks for the recommendation.
Key Maniac Lad- I tried to snag a whistle today, but both music shops I tried getting to were closed with it being sunday and all, but I'll try again after work tomorrow, your suggestion makes a lot of good sense to me.
mcknowall- thanks for the tip, I'll probably try a harmonica I learn a little bit on a tin whistle... I really have a lot to learn before I delve into an instrument I'm not even entirely sure how to operate.
silver bow- so all those years of perfect headshots are actually going to amount to something eh?
hedge.teacher- you've got an email
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by BobbyL
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
It's just a conjecture bobby, but something has to explain why this thing is easier for me to learn than most.
A more experienced player might find my argument to be stupid, but it seems to me that anyone who's been playing Mario Bros and the like since 1989 should have an advantage when it comes to complex patterns and timing and pressure of button-pushing. The "feel" of the keys just reminds me of a game controller.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by polkageist
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
I would encourage you to spend the time to find and play the various styles of accordion as well.
I'm a piano accordion player, and love it.
I can also tell you that the majority (not all) "Irish" accordion players that you run into, and many other "Irish" musicians will run down the piano accordion or tell you that it's totally inappropriate for the music. Don't listen to them. It's not the instrument, it's how it's played, and there are some GREAT players of the piano accordion in Irish music.
Just my $0.02.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by N9YTY
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
BobbyL, if you like the accordion start with it, there is no need to first learn other instruments. Learning the whistle or harmonica takes a lot of time too and there is almost nothing you gain by first learning them. In all, there are no short cuts to learn any instrument.
The diatonic accordion is a pretty simple instrument once you get the hang of it. All diatonic accordions with different tunings use the same logic for the notes. On each row, on the bellows push, you have nothing but three different notes in a couple of octaves (C row C-E-G) and the rest of the four notes of the 7-note diatonic scale in the pull direction. For the B/C the B row is one half step lower but uses the same logic and from there you get the missing sharps and flats.
When I started with the B/C I though I would be needing a tabulature program which converts the notes to button markings, but once I understood the principle I took me a couple of days to noodle tunes directly from the dots.
Talking about dots here will usually generate a certain type of discussion so I only say that knowing the dots won't hinder you from learning with other means as well. Instead, it will anchor you accordion keyboard to something concrete and this speedens up the learning process IM(H)O.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by Risto
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
>...there are some GREAT players of the piano accordion in Irish music.
Yes, and Alan Kelly is one of them. After listening to him I have started to wonder if the only thing that speaks for the diatonic accordion over CBAs and PAs is the small size of the diatonic accordion.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by Risto
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Having an instrument that does not overpower everything else at a session might also be regarded as being a sign of taste, tact and discretion !
You know the old definition of a gentleman ? Someone who knows how to play the bagpipes, but chooses not to ! Obviously refering to the Great Pipes, not the small, or the uillean.
I have a lot of sympathy to our original poster; I recently lost a good friend, the lady who introduced me to Irish Traditional Music, and I do feel there is a heritage to learn and try and pass on; just remember that it is not something you can pick up and be compitent at in five minutes - those bands you admire are firstly highly proficient in their music, and secondly have chosen to take it in a particular direction - as you learn more about ITM you may feel that your original choice of instrument and style was not the most appropriate for you. Take it slow, and enjoy the learning process. Also remember that some of the people who post on this forum are incredibly old farts with beer bellies and long grey beards, with an accumulation of wisdom that is not easily acquired, but which they will be happy to share with you.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
a bit broader, but wasn't there some discussion on this last week? I thoguht it was a very nice thread on thoughts about inexpensive boxes etc.
Not trying to be inhospitable since I was there a couple of years ago and the folks here were most helpful. But there have been some really informative threads about selection of instruments in the last four months.
Perhaps BobbyL should search a bit since GP, dinn, Al Brown and MYBC had some very nice thoughts. You might get some of my two sense also.
In one of my very early box questions, Peter Browne was even kind enough to contribute.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by zippydw
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
I got in and listened to my local session last night, actually probably the first time I've actually enjoyed myself since my father broke his bad news to me, there was a guy playing a C/D box and he seemed happy to help but echoed the opinion that learning on a harmonica would be a prudent choice... but I'm inclined to agree with risto that if this is going to be my first instrument then why not just learn on it?
I could just be naive, but that's what I was thinking when I first started seriously thinking about playing.
I found a piano accordion in a local thrift shop, it's a 1931 12 bass Hohner, the guy running the shop happened to play a little and squeezed out a quick tune, and it sounded good to me, I don't have enough experience to be sure if the sound was quite right, but it sounded good to me, and I think that's what's important, I also fiddled with it for a few minutes, played a few notes, no idea what they were, but I made myself laugh, in a good way. I think I'm going to buy it.
After another day of listening and hearing how easily a fiddle can totally drown out a C/D button accordion in a fairly quiet pub the louder piano accordion seems like a better choice. Especially since my aspiration is to learn traditional music primarily to get an understanding of it, but more actively play the traditional/punk fusion stuff I'm honestly more fond of. By no means am I belittling traditional music, it's obvious how important a firm grounding in a traditional style is to my favorite fusion bands, but since the application of traditional music that interests me most involves electric guitars and drums, I think I'm going to go the louder piano route.
If for no other reason, I think I'm going to give this old Hohner a shot because the song that made me cry into my whiskey while I was on the bender that ended with my deciding to take up music was played on a piano model.. I think you'd have to be a serious jerk to deny that Whispers the Wind is one of the best songs that's been recorded in the last 10 years... on top of the fact that it can make you shed tears into your drink, that's saying something.
N9YTY- I've already experienced some of the sentiment you're talking about, but I'm only half Irish, I can blame the Italian side if it comes to that.
Guernsey Pete- Thanks for the insight, as a skinny young punk with a scrappy black goatee I appreciate the body of wisdom you guys can't seem to stop talking about, I'm very glad I found this board.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by BobbyL
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
"...hearing how easily a fiddle can totally drown out a C/D button accordion in a fairly quiet pub..."
LOL.
# Posted on July 23rd 2007 by polkageist
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
I caved and bought the old Hohner I found, it's a little heavy but I'm having a blast just screwing around with it even though I have no idea what the hell I'm doing... I think my housemates are going to skin me if I don't improve my skills sometime soon though... lol
# Posted on July 24th 2007 by BobbyL
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Typically fiddles do NOT drown out accordions, unless you have a VERY aggressive fiddler combined with a very shy accordion (which can be the case at the Austin session, where the fiddlers tend to be more experienced than the box playersf).
I guess BobbyL has already made his choice, but if there's anyone else out there, don't make your piano vs. button choice based solely on volume--a superloud piano accordion can really p*ss people off, and if you're just learning, the last thing you want is to be the loudest person in the room. (And if you do pick up piano accordion, you might consider getting a small one. In a band setting, you can always amplify.)
Decide based on whose style you like. Or decide based on the fact that a smallish button accordion will fit under the seat in front of you on an airplane, and will get you fewer dirty looks from hardcore traditionalists. (It's not that one can't play Irish music on piano accordion. It's just that the percentage of people playing Irish music badly on piano accordion is higher than the percentage of people playing Irish music badly on button box, which gives the piano accordion a bad name.)
Celtic rock may be about volume, but traditional music is NOT. And to do the "celtic rock" thing really well, you need to have a good grasp of the trad.
Hg
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by fiddlesoup
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
Completely true Hg. As far as learning , some of the best advice that I got on this forum and from others was to always keep the instrument out so it was easier to see, get to, and pick up ...and the idea of "playing " your instrument instead of "practicing" seems to help a lot of folks as well.
tim
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by timK
Re: New musician seeking accordion advice
to: Guernsey Pete
Re: "Having an instrument that does not overpower everything else at a session might also be regarded as being a sign of taste, tact and discretion !"
Interesting. I play with several other box players, they on their nice little Saltarelle's and me on my hohner 72-bass piano accordion. They are, individually, louder than I am. You know, you don't have to pull out all stops and squeeze the bellows like you're trying to push sausage out of a pig. Again, not the instrument, but how it's played. Stop spreading stereotypes.
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by N9YTY