We have small sessions & we have big sessions. The big sessions suffer when we get too spread out.
It is hard to hear everyone & the tempo is not always steady.
Any similar experience & possible remedies?
Remedy? Stick to small sessions. Always the best in my view. More fun, more friendly, more intimate and you can hear the other players properly. But make sure the other participants can play.
I love small sessions. The ones I am referring to are not huge - huge just big enough to make things challenging. Some of the people I play with individually I have met in large open sessions.
OK, so now you have a group of session buddies whom you play regular small sessions with. Why do you need to go back to the big ones if you, like me, find them a pain? (Assuming you do - find them a bit of a pain, that is.)
Let's take this from the top. This is not a windup & I know the POLICE will do their best & that is O.K. I actually have suggestions on playing in difficult situations but would rather wait for feedback. I hope someone else is not so cloistered as my 1st pair of respondents.
Key; the size varies depending on seasons, tides, moods, who knows . . . also when I get together with individual musicians it maybe just the two of us. That is great but it is not everything.
If you can't hear, for what ever reason - to many punters, to many musicians, a bloody drum - you really should pack up. Sometimes I don't. I may be out for the evening and just wanna drink, smoke and play, so I soldier on. Occasionally, you can grab one or two good tunes when half the crowd are out fagging or whatever and it can be worth it for that. But the strammash is really just an excuse to drink.
Yes, sometimes (occasionally) the big sessions really rock. And it depends where when and who. But call my viewpoint cloistered if you will, but it is the fruit of years of playing in many sizes of sessions. And that view remains: I generally prefer smaller sessions with a handful of people whom I get on well with both personally and musically. I think Michael will agree. I'm now curious to hear your solution to this problem. Electric/amplified fiddle or whatever it is you play (nothing in bio)? Play tunes no-one else knows? I've tried both. I still prefer small sessions.
There aint no solution and that's that. The whole point about playing thins music is to feed of the people you are playing with. If you can't hear them then there is no point to it. It's as simple as that.
When I was a kid I thought big sessions rocked. But then I was only listening to myself.
Key - that was llig's suggestion BTW. You would have to ask him.
llig - you & Key seem to have alot to talk about. Could you please go do that so the rest of us can hear each other?
I assumed everyone had experiences with this problem. I believe it is possible to work with different numbers of people in a session - up to a point. If you consider it to be an unworkable situation then that is your suggestion. I just want to give others the opportunity to respond.
Thanks what?!!? I do not wish to make it too difficult. Seems like what I call big might seem puny to other players. To clarify & give you a ballpark figure let's assume 20 musicians is a big session.
Sorry I did not start with a number.
I'd never play in a session with 20 people, and the reason is this: if joining in a session, I always ask myself: "can I add to this?" If the answer's no, I go and drink at the bar with me mates. With 20 people, the answer's always gonna be "no", for me. I'd much rather spend my time more constructively, filling myself up with alcohol.
You can have numerically large sessions, but in fact no more than half a dozen of the better players would be playing most of the time because the spread of ability in that session is fairly wide and the others, who aren't yet quite up to the standard, are listening. So the reality of that session would be that its effective size would be about six well-matched players, who would naturally tend to congregate in a group.
As Micheal says, at the end of the day it's all about listening to each other _and_ having the all-important eye contact. This is the basic reason why, in other types of music, if you have more than about a dozen in an ensemble then the logistics of eye contact rapidly become impossible and so you need someone (who might be one of the musicians) whose prime function is to hold things together.
Well said lazyhound. It is possible to keep a session of 12 going. Eye contact is very important. Now I will unleash one of my suggestions. Get the least experienced musician to lead off. Listen the 1st time through & then everyone play. Everyone!
I bet you thought you already knew 'Off to California'
The only constructive suggestion for a big session apart from turning it into a small session is the seating arrangement. We've had discussions about that subject before, but putting the core stronger players together and hoping the others do a bit more listening while they are playing. You can argue the merits of a good bodhran or guitar/zouk but that can also help to spread the beat to the unwashed masses on the edge of the circle.
And yes of course size matters, McKnowall - I thought you did know it all!!
Big sessions (20+) either work or they don't work. And that depends on your interpretation of "work". If you and/or others are sitting there feeling this is a waste of time, it's just one big sloppy wall of noise, I can't hear myself think never mind play, and what they are playing is a load of donkey tunes, then it's not working. If, regardless, or even because of, all that, you're enjoying it, then it's working. This obviously will happen much less frequently with a small tight gang of players.
As I see it, in order to work, big sessions might be run autocratically or democratically. Autocratically where there is one or a few good players so good that the lesser mortal other players are so in awe of them that they daren't play out of time or tune, so it is run dictatorially. Democratic big sessions rarely work but to do so they have to be very laid back so that everyone gets a crack at the whip leading a set, and no-one is trying to prove or be anything musically. They might be a bit too nice and gentle if you're raring for some fast blazing sets, so best to leave your ego at the door, not always easy if you come out to a session expecting an aerobics work-out. This is just my experience. And yep me and Michael talk a lot. I can't speak for myself, but though Micheal's views can be controversial, I nearly always enjoy reading what he has to say as it is invariably thought provoking, unlike the negative view expressed by the person who told us to shurrup, then proceeded to say exactly nothing of value.
It's more to do with the quality of the musicians rather than the quantity. I've seen big sessions at Willie Week, the Ennis Trad Fest, Fleadh Nua, etc that really rocked and had a level of electricity you'd never get at a small or medium one. But then these were made up mainly of highly competent musicians - for example I remeber Seán Smith and Denis Liddy as just two of the players in the Ennis session. I've also known small sessions that were awful because one member was a noodler that actually improved as more players joined in, efectively drowning out the offender!
You're right Bannerman, but with the bigger ones there's more chance of bandwagon jumpers hopping on. And are Willie week etc. sessions truly representative? In their own way yeah, but I thought we meant just yer average weekly session in the back o beyond of Normalsville
Big, small, makes no difference. Depends on what sort of a night you are after. A big session, loads of crack, take it easy, play 5 or 6 good sets, listen to a few sets, a good night out if that is what you want.
If you are looking for a meaningful musical experience, the small session is better.
And as for not hearing the tempo at a big session, that's why you need half a dozen bodhrans.
I love big sessions, as long as they are run fairly dictatorially (not neccessarily an oxymoron). One person leading the session who's charismatic, knows exactly what he/she's doing, and has an inexhaustible supply of tunes in his/her head, but frequently lets and encourages others to start tunes, and then you can have as many as you like. I personally don't mind not "adding" to a session. If I can play a tune with other people, that's good enough for me - I don't have to enhance the sound or quality of the session for it to be worth it. Of course, you don't often get a session leader with all the qualities I mentioned, but if you do, it's great.
I think big sessions rock.
But then I'm only a kid like Llig allegedly once was, so you'd better not listen to me.
True I am not referring to the grand sessions of Willie Week. Most of my session playing is local. As far as 'does size matter?' It should be obvious that a small group can be tighter musically. Instead of numbers of musicians the problems I see, or hear, occur when a session spreads out further than they need. We try to tighten up the circle. Try to make sure people have eye contact ; but . . . some players tend to be shy, or reclusive, or feel they are not competent enough. Some bring a host of props (music stands, bags, tubas . . . )
My main concern is when the circle gets too large. Not solely measured in numbers but distance apart. As far as wandering tempo I do not think it is a function of more backers. I see it as a function of the best melody play & the best backer communicating. The lead player & backer using strong accents for all to hear.
In any session I think it should be the rule to keep people as close together as possible (don't get me going about non-players sitting between the musicians or the selfish fiddler who puts his case on a seat to reserve it and promptly heads to the bar where he spends most of the night before returning!). Also I think it works better to have the stronger players in the centre.
Regarding people who park instrument or case on a chair: after a certain amount of time goes by we issue a parking ticket where the fine is to buy a round for the table... or more depending on the length of time the person was in violation.
The unattended instrument would seem to pose no problem in London sessions but for the rest I like PB's solution - the parking ticket it is or maybe a clamp for bodhráns to make sure they're immobilised.
If you happen to drop in here I have another question. What is the largest session you have played where the craic was good?
For me I would say 12 or 14 players. You see I really have not been in those legendary sessions at Willie Week.
Thanks & may all your sessions be fun, friendly & intimate -
All 16 of you;
Key Maniac Lad
llig leahcim
TheMuse
what?!!?
Dow
lazyhound
mcknowall
Donough
Bannerman
Bleedin' Heart
bodhran bliss
Joe CSS
The Phantom Button
kennedy
AlBrown
domnull
I think I have my answer,
Tonya
Room for All
Room for All
We have small sessions & we have big sessions. The big sessions suffer when we get too spread out.
It is hard to hear everyone & the tempo is not always steady.
Any similar experience & possible remedies?
# Posted on July 8th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
Remedy? Stick to small sessions. Always the best in my view. More fun, more friendly, more intimate and you can hear the other players properly. But make sure the other participants can play.
# Posted on July 8th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
I love small sessions. The ones I am referring to are not huge - huge just big enough to make things challenging. Some of the people I play with individually I have met in large open sessions.
# Posted on July 8th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
No
Unfortunatly, "room for all" just doesn't work. You have to - ABSOLUTLY HAVE TO - be able to hear.
# Posted on July 8th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Room for All
OK, so now you have a group of session buddies whom you play regular small sessions with. Why do you need to go back to the big ones if you, like me, find them a pain? (Assuming you do - find them a bit of a pain, that is.)
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
Let's take this from the top. This is not a windup & I know the POLICE will do their best & that is O.K. I actually have suggestions on playing in difficult situations but would rather wait for feedback. I hope someone else is not so cloistered as my 1st pair of respondents.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
Key; the size varies depending on seasons, tides, moods, who knows . . . also when I get together with individual musicians it maybe just the two of us. That is great but it is not everything.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
If you can't hear, for what ever reason - to many punters, to many musicians, a bloody drum - you really should pack up. Sometimes I don't. I may be out for the evening and just wanna drink, smoke and play, so I soldier on. Occasionally, you can grab one or two good tunes when half the crowd are out fagging or whatever and it can be worth it for that. But the strammash is really just an excuse to drink.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Room for All
Thank you!
The 1st suggestion:
- Be ready to play once the smokers step out.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
Yes, sometimes (occasionally) the big sessions really rock. And it depends where when and who. But call my viewpoint cloistered if you will, but it is the fruit of years of playing in many sizes of sessions. And that view remains: I generally prefer smaller sessions with a handful of people whom I get on well with both personally and musically. I think Michael will agree. I'm now curious to hear your solution to this problem. Electric/amplified fiddle or whatever it is you play (nothing in bio)? Play tunes no-one else knows? I've tried both. I still prefer small sessions.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
Oh.
That's it?
Play your own tunes when the smokers have their fag break.
Right.
So it's wait for the big session to temporarily become a small session.
So you do prefer small sessions after all.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
There aint no solution and that's that. The whole point about playing thins music is to feed of the people you are playing with. If you can't hear them then there is no point to it. It's as simple as that.
When I was a kid I thought big sessions rocked. But then I was only listening to myself.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Room for All
Key - that was llig's suggestion BTW. You would have to ask him.
llig - you & Key seem to have alot to talk about. Could you please go do that so the rest of us can hear each other?
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Room for All
Thanks Muse but they can stay. This is still an open session.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
I assumed everyone had experiences with this problem. I believe it is possible to work with different numbers of people in a session - up to a point. If you consider it to be an unworkable situation then that is your suggestion. I just want to give others the opportunity to respond.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
Thanks what?!!? I do not wish to make it too difficult. Seems like what I call big might seem puny to other players. To clarify & give you a ballpark figure let's assume 20 musicians is a big session.
Sorry I did not start with a number.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
I'd never play in a session with 20 people, and the reason is this: if joining in a session, I always ask myself: "can I add to this?" If the answer's no, I go and drink at the bar with me mates. With 20 people, the answer's always gonna be "no", for me. I'd much rather spend my time more constructively, filling myself up with alcohol.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Room for All
You can have numerically large sessions, but in fact no more than half a dozen of the better players would be playing most of the time because the spread of ability in that session is fairly wide and the others, who aren't yet quite up to the standard, are listening. So the reality of that session would be that its effective size would be about six well-matched players, who would naturally tend to congregate in a group.
As Micheal says, at the end of the day it's all about listening to each other _and_ having the all-important eye contact. This is the basic reason why, in other types of music, if you have more than about a dozen in an ensemble then the logistics of eye contact rapidly become impossible and so you need someone (who might be one of the musicians) whose prime function is to hold things together.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Room for All
Well said lazyhound. It is possible to keep a session of 12 going. Eye contact is very important. Now I will unleash one of my suggestions. Get the least experienced musician to lead off. Listen the 1st time through & then everyone play. Everyone!
I bet you thought you already knew 'Off to California'
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
So size does matter?
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Room for All
The only constructive suggestion for a big session apart from turning it into a small session is the seating arrangement. We've had discussions about that subject before, but putting the core stronger players together and hoping the others do a bit more listening while they are playing. You can argue the merits of a good bodhran or guitar/zouk but that can also help to spread the beat to the unwashed masses on the edge of the circle.
And yes of course size matters, McKnowall - I thought you did know it all!!
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Donough
Re: Room for All
Big sessions (20+) either work or they don't work. And that depends on your interpretation of "work". If you and/or others are sitting there feeling this is a waste of time, it's just one big sloppy wall of noise, I can't hear myself think never mind play, and what they are playing is a load of donkey tunes, then it's not working. If, regardless, or even because of, all that, you're enjoying it, then it's working. This obviously will happen much less frequently with a small tight gang of players.
As I see it, in order to work, big sessions might be run autocratically or democratically. Autocratically where there is one or a few good players so good that the lesser mortal other players are so in awe of them that they daren't play out of time or tune, so it is run dictatorially. Democratic big sessions rarely work but to do so they have to be very laid back so that everyone gets a crack at the whip leading a set, and no-one is trying to prove or be anything musically. They might be a bit too nice and gentle if you're raring for some fast blazing sets, so best to leave your ego at the door, not always easy if you come out to a session expecting an aerobics work-out. This is just my experience. And yep me and Michael talk a lot. I can't speak for myself, but though Micheal's views can be controversial, I nearly always enjoy reading what he has to say as it is invariably thought provoking, unlike the negative view expressed by the person who told us to shurrup, then proceeded to say exactly nothing of value.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
It's more to do with the quality of the musicians rather than the quantity. I've seen big sessions at Willie Week, the Ennis Trad Fest, Fleadh Nua, etc that really rocked and had a level of electricity you'd never get at a small or medium one. But then these were made up mainly of highly competent musicians - for example I remeber Seán Smith and Denis Liddy as just two of the players in the Ennis session. I've also known small sessions that were awful because one member was a noodler that actually improved as more players joined in, efectively drowning out the offender!
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Room for All
G'Day Donough, just checking.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Room for All
You're right Bannerman, but with the bigger ones there's more chance of bandwagon jumpers hopping on. And are Willie week etc. sessions truly representative? In their own way yeah, but I thought we meant just yer average weekly session in the back o beyond of Normalsville
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
Chris Smith wrote some stuff on this matter:
http://coyotebanjo.com/music-55.html
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Bleedin' Heart
Re: Room for All
Big, small, makes no difference. Depends on what sort of a night you are after. A big session, loads of crack, take it easy, play 5 or 6 good sets, listen to a few sets, a good night out if that is what you want.
If you are looking for a meaningful musical experience, the small session is better.
And as for not hearing the tempo at a big session, that's why you need half a dozen bodhrans.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Room for All
hhmm.. yeah and the bigger sessions tend to attract a myriad of whackers, like flies round sh***
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
I love big sessions, as long as they are run fairly dictatorially (not neccessarily an oxymoron). One person leading the session who's charismatic, knows exactly what he/she's doing, and has an inexhaustible supply of tunes in his/her head, but frequently lets and encourages others to start tunes, and then you can have as many as you like. I personally don't mind not "adding" to a session. If I can play a tune with other people, that's good enough for me - I don't have to enhance the sound or quality of the session for it to be worth it. Of course, you don't often get a session leader with all the qualities I mentioned, but if you do, it's great.
I think big sessions rock.
But then I'm only a kid like Llig allegedly once was, so you'd better not listen to me.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Room for All
True I am not referring to the grand sessions of Willie Week. Most of my session playing is local. As far as 'does size matter?' It should be obvious that a small group can be tighter musically. Instead of numbers of musicians the problems I see, or hear, occur when a session spreads out further than they need. We try to tighten up the circle. Try to make sure people have eye contact ; but . . . some players tend to be shy, or reclusive, or feel they are not competent enough. Some bring a host of props (music stands, bags, tubas . . . )
My main concern is when the circle gets too large. Not solely measured in numbers but distance apart. As far as wandering tempo I do not think it is a function of more backers. I see it as a function of the best melody play & the best backer communicating. The lead player & backer using strong accents for all to hear.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
Right on Joe! A session leader who commands respect but respects others. Egos get in the way more than anything.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
In any session I think it should be the rule to keep people as close together as possible (don't get me going about non-players sitting between the musicians or the selfish fiddler who puts his case on a seat to reserve it and promptly heads to the bar where he spends most of the night before returning!). Also I think it works better to have the stronger players in the centre.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Room for All
Regarding people who park instrument or case on a chair: after a certain amount of time goes by we issue a parking ticket where the fine is to buy a round for the table... or more depending on the length of time the person was in violation.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Room for All
Leave an instrument unattended on a chair in a south London pub for longer than 5 msec and it'll be gone.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
I hate seeing an unattended fiddle on a chair---makes me nervous just to look at it. Too many possibilities for disaster.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Room for All
The unattended instrument would seem to pose no problem in London sessions but for the rest I like PB's solution - the parking ticket it is or maybe a clamp for bodhráns to make sure they're immobilised.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Room for All
Some of us have parking permits for our instruments. No one dares even breathe on mine, but then I'm one of those scary woman things..................
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Room for All
What, is that in case you might play it?
Bannerman, unclamp the bodhrans - let them roll away....
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Room for All
If it's an abandoned bodhran shouldn't the bomb disposal people be brought in
# Posted on July 10th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Room for All
One of course doesn't need reminding that both bodhrans and bombs are capable of making loud noises that startle one out of one's reverie.
# Posted on July 10th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Room for All
If you happen to drop in here I have another question. What is the largest session you have played where the craic was good?
For me I would say 12 or 14 players. You see I really have not been in those legendary sessions at Willie Week.
# Posted on July 10th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
Once I left my accordion unattended, and when I returned, my worst fears were realized. There were three more accordions stacked on top of it.....
# Posted on July 10th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Room for All
Al
That's your worst fear ??!!
# Posted on July 10th 2007 by domnull
Re: Room for All
Actually, it is my wife's first fear. Every time I pick up my accordion, she requests that I play "Far From Home."
# Posted on July 10th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Room for All
Thanks & may all your sessions be fun, friendly & intimate -
All 16 of you;
Key Maniac Lad
llig leahcim
TheMuse
what?!!?
Dow
lazyhound
mcknowall
Donough
Bannerman
Bleedin' Heart
bodhran bliss
Joe CSS
The Phantom Button
kennedy
AlBrown
domnull
I think I have my answer,
Tonya
# Posted on July 10th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Room for All
& bowburner; Cheers!
# Posted on July 10th 2007 by Tonya