The piano has a venerable history in traditional music. It is a superb instrument for accompanying fiddle tunes, but the great contraption is sadly absent from nearly all bands and sessions. Do people wish to hear more from the piano, and if so, what can be done to encourage its return to traditional music?
I don't mind a piano at all but some folk object vehemently
My first suggestion would be:
Make sure all pub pianos are kept in tune
Portable pianos aren't really an option for sessions , but ...
I haven't been to Lonach for a few years but there used to be an ex-Strathdonner, named Jim a pianist from Edinburgh, who was a great trad accompanist as well as a nifty jazz player when the occasion called for it. He would turn up to sessions in the pub during the Lonach Gathering. When the Colqhounnie hotel removed its old piano, he started bringing up his digital piano. He always played at the right volume so there was no problem
I know that "pub sessions began in London in the 1950s" or whatever the orthodox line is now, but my uncle was a telephone engineer in Australia in the 40s and 50s, and he told me several country pubs had a piano and a lagerphone (primitive percussion instrument) in the backroom, and often one of the travelling engineers or linesmen would carry an accordion or fiddle and they would have impromptu musical nights that he called "sessions" (blasphemy, I know) - but probably not ITM, STM or even ATM of course.
.
I wonder if that would be Jim Leighton? I had the pleasure of playing in a session at Dunkeld a few months ago with Jim, who I had not met before, and who provided lovely piano support for the tunes.
Yes, pianos at concert pitch would be a good start. Too many pub and hotel pianos are badly out of tune, or fairly well in tune with themselves, but flat of concert.
Yes, definitely for it. One of Durham's long-gone attractions (start of the 70s) was a piano knees-up in a pub called The Bridge, the player being an old guy who was very good at it. In the 80s I got to The Lounge in Shetland, where the session featured a chap called Bogie John backing on piano, and I think Peerie Willie Johnson played piano too.
But a lot depends on the player, and I imagine he/she is unlikely to cut the mustard without putting in lessons and practice from an early age.
I like the idea of a piano at the heart of a session that enables it to veer with ease from tunes to trad songs to pop to music-hall or classics - but I don't expect everyone out there to like this idea.
Some time back I commented that fiddler Martin Byrnes's recorded playing was slightly flat on the high b's. Someone commented in reply that Martin was playing this way to stay in tune with an out-of-tune note on the piano!
I am a piano player-in non ITM I suppose considered professional...and a button/whistle player as far as ITM.
I am not a big fan of it in session music. I prefer the simpler sounds of the 5 to 9 'traditional' session instruments this group constantly debates as appropriate.
For performance, back up and doing 'cross over' Celtic for show piano is grand if done well and instrument is in tune. (As a box player I should be one to potificate on being in tune!)
Johnny Connoly and Charlie Lennon have a nice CD. But it does demonstrate that piano can get a bit monotonous.
I love a well-played piano. There's a pianist at the ceilis I play at, and she comes to the once-a-month session I go to. She brings her electric keyboard.
There seems to be quite a tradition of piano in Cape Breton music, and not just for accompaniment. Check out "The Fiddler's Friend," solo piano Barbara McDonald Magone. It's excellent.
I'm all for it! Some of my favorite recordings have piano accompaniment, and there's nothing like playing with a good piano player--it brings wonderful lift to the tunes.
Nick, piano is coming back in Irish music in these years. Lots of recent recordings actually have the piano accompaniment. Charlie Lennon, Seamus Quinn, Brian McGrath, Geraldine Cotter, and Felix Dolan still keep busy. And of course, young John Blake provides the tasteful backing on the piano as well as the guitar and bouzouki: http://www.claddaghrecords.com/www/product.asp?pID=1596&cID=17
I am all for it, I love the sound of a piano in this music.
My wife has become frustrated with her fiddle playing, and was an accomplished classical pianist in her youth. We are adding on to our house, and the piano is moving upstairs to a more appropriate position of honor. Hopefully that will spur her to try applying her new knowledge of ITM to her old skills of piano playing, and she will find a new outlet for her music.
Hi Nick,
I also like a piano in a session or ceili band if it's played well. Comhaltas I suppose do their bit by making sure that pianos are available for ceili band competitions Of course part of the problem with pianos in sessions is finding pubs that have a piano that's in tune, as Bren says, or indeed a piano at all. I can think of just two pubs in my area, (West Cork, Ireland) that have pianos in working order and concert pitch, the Jolly Roger, Sherkin Island, and Casey's bar, Baltimore. Session pianists, please support these pianos if you find yourself in a session in one of these bars!
For anyone wanting to hear tastefull piano accompaniment to ITM I recomend Ollie Ross on Peter Horan and Gerry Harringtons' CD, Fortune favours the merry, http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1610
Here's the guy who sold me on the idea of all this piano talk. Before hearing this guy, I usually didn't like teven he thought of big old pianos being played i in trad music. But he is a master. http://www.macmorin.com/music.htm
Though I personally don't necessary always like the sound of the piano in this context, some of the piano backing arrangements I've heard are very musical and because of this pleasant to listen to.
When I take the extra time to write out & then learn piano arrangements of Irish music..... I find that the effort is well worth it.
Often piano sounds too 'box-y' and 'vertical' to my ears for it to be pleasing, but not always - it depends on the player, of course.
I had never been inclined toward playing with a piano present, perhaps since I always thought its presence far too dominant, rather like having a chanter that cannot compete with the drones and regulators. Too loud, and too domineering, I thought. Definately not for small groups, at least, and my prejudice has always been toward smaller groups anyway.
I had my mind changed by hearing someone really good (to my taste, anyway) playing with a rather accomplished Cape Breton fiddler, name of Buddy something, the daughter plays too I hear. Changed my mind completely, and I now rather enjoy listening to piano in the right context. It most definately can be done well.
One scream of pain and anguish, however--- let it be a REAL PIANO, please. Oh Creator, may I never have to listen to another plinky-tinny-child'stoy-sounding-cheap-piece-of-junk-portable-electric-thingy in this lifetime. Atrocious, I tell you.
The accursed 88-key laptop.
They should only be issued to buskers working the subway platforms, and pray for a train to go by.
Ah, there's my coffee.
So, where were we? oh, yes, polite commentary on keyboards, and the fine folk who play them.
Yes, yes, yes to the piano! Thank you Felix Dolan and Brian Mc Garth for your contribution to ITM. Michael Coleman could have used you for accompanists. Oh well...
I hated the piano, one of my favourite instruments, in Irish music. Seemed to just play a vamp beat, and was dreadful. The piano was replaced by the guitar, which was a vast improvement.
Having sais that Michael O'Sullivan is a wonderful musician, and plays great stuff, and I remember playing in Molloy's with a lady who played the tunes, the melody, on a keyboard and it was great.
I had the pleasure of paying in a couple of sessions up in Manhattan and Brooklyn recently, where Felix Dolan's son Brendan was present, playing piano (he also plays flute). Lovely, tasteful accompaniment.
One of the troubles is that generally there just aren't wonderful fag burned pianos in pubs anymore. The ones that you see are often neglected and untuned for years.
The piano is a fab backing instrument and in order to recapture the tradition, I would suggest the purists will have to hold their breath and accept geezahs playing synthetic instruments with amps. With appropriate and quality equipment you can barely tell the difference. Keyboards aren't all cheap biros made by Cassio ! And, indeed, most important is the quality of the joanna basher him or herself!
By the way:
When I was a kid there were "pub piano players" in nearly every pub in London. The last one I ever saw was about ten years ago at a place called the Cat's Back in Wandsworth. He was about eighty then and presumably "retired" now. Presumably the death of the pub piano tradition gave rise to the death of the pub piano.
Well, you missed the old governor of the Rutland Arms, about a couple of hundred yards from the Blythe Hill Tavern. He died just a couple of years ago. Prior to that his pub was a local haven for all sorts of jazz music, about 4 or 5 nights a week, from Trad jazz to Modern jazz. He himself was pretty handy on the piana playing all sorts of 40's style jazz. After he died the pub kept going as a music venue for a while but I notice very recently the shutters are up and so are the For Sale signs, so there goes another London pub institution. Ironically that and the Blythe are, or were, the only two local pubs doing live music. So now if you want live music round there you'll have to come and listen to me and my mates.
AAAAAGH!!! I missed it. I play the piano myself and I feel very strongly about its place in ITM.
I CANT BLOODY STAND IT in the ITM scene.
I know full well loads of people are going to chastise me for being a hypocrite because I play the guitar too but the piano is just plain wrong in a session.
Now don’t pick me up wrong, its one of my favourite instruments and I love to play it but I have yet to hear a piano that fits in a session.
HI
This is my first post to this group, and I found it via Google (where else) looking for information and resources about pub pianists
I am really into live amateur singing with pub piano style accompanyment, and looking to try to re-create in Europe the American concept of Dueling pianists here in Europe. It is so much better than Karaoke
I was thinking about the rules for a competition, because apart from Colin Sell style technical skills (vast memory of songs embedded in your memory and excellent technical skills) there is also the issue of charisma. someone who can lead the singing along...
So here are the questions
If there are pub pianists "out there" can they identify themselves.
If I was going to organise a "pub pianist of the year" competition, who would be judges
Where would the right places to publicize it
Why do so few of the American format bars exist in Europe.
I live in Cracow Poland and am interested in trying to establihs this type of venue./format here, more for fun than as a business
In the America format. the pianists get tips from those competing to have their songs played
Arise, piano players!
Arise, piano players!
The piano has a venerable history in traditional music. It is a superb instrument for accompanying fiddle tunes, but the great contraption is sadly absent from nearly all bands and sessions. Do people wish to hear more from the piano, and if so, what can be done to encourage its return to traditional music?
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by Nick Spencer
Re: Arise, piano players!
I don't mind a piano at all but some folk object vehemently
My first suggestion would be:
Make sure all pub pianos are kept in tune
Portable pianos aren't really an option for sessions , but ...
I haven't been to Lonach for a few years but there used to be an ex-Strathdonner, named Jim a pianist from Edinburgh, who was a great trad accompanist as well as a nifty jazz player when the occasion called for it. He would turn up to sessions in the pub during the Lonach Gathering. When the Colqhounnie hotel removed its old piano, he started bringing up his digital piano. He always played at the right volume so there was no problem
I know that "pub sessions began in London in the 1950s" or whatever the orthodox line is now, but my uncle was a telephone engineer in Australia in the 40s and 50s, and he told me several country pubs had a piano and a lagerphone (primitive percussion instrument) in the backroom, and often one of the travelling engineers or linesmen would carry an accordion or fiddle and they would have impromptu musical nights that he called "sessions" (blasphemy, I know) - but probably not ITM, STM or even ATM of course.
.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by Bren
Re: Arise, piano players!
Sorry, the above was not really addressing the issue of pianos for trad music accompaniment, just the issue of pianos in pub sessions.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by Bren
Re: Arise, piano players!
I wonder if that would be Jim Leighton? I had the pleasure of playing in a session at Dunkeld a few months ago with Jim, who I had not met before, and who provided lovely piano support for the tunes.
Yes, pianos at concert pitch would be a good start. Too many pub and hotel pianos are badly out of tune, or fairly well in tune with themselves, but flat of concert.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by Nick Spencer
Re: Arise, piano players!
Yes, definitely for it. One of Durham's long-gone attractions (start of the 70s) was a piano knees-up in a pub called The Bridge, the player being an old guy who was very good at it. In the 80s I got to The Lounge in Shetland, where the session featured a chap called Bogie John backing on piano, and I think Peerie Willie Johnson played piano too.
But a lot depends on the player, and I imagine he/she is unlikely to cut the mustard without putting in lessons and practice from an early age.
I like the idea of a piano at the heart of a session that enables it to veer with ease from tunes to trad songs to pop to music-hall or classics - but I don't expect everyone out there to like this idea.
Some time back I commented that fiddler Martin Byrnes's recorded playing was slightly flat on the high b's. Someone commented in reply that Martin was playing this way to stay in tune with an out-of-tune note on the piano!
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Arise, piano players!
I am a piano player-in non ITM I suppose considered professional...and a button/whistle player as far as ITM.
I am not a big fan of it in session music. I prefer the simpler sounds of the 5 to 9 'traditional' session instruments this group constantly debates as appropriate.
For performance, back up and doing 'cross over' Celtic for show piano is grand if done well and instrument is in tune. (As a box player I should be one to potificate on being in tune!)
Johnny Connoly and Charlie Lennon have a nice CD. But it does demonstrate that piano can get a bit monotonous.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Arise, piano players!
I love a well-played piano. There's a pianist at the ceilis I play at, and she comes to the once-a-month session I go to. She brings her electric keyboard.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by seisflutes
Re: Arise, piano players!
There seems to be quite a tradition of piano in Cape Breton music, and not just for accompaniment. Check out "The Fiddler's Friend," solo piano Barbara McDonald Magone. It's excellent.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Arise, piano players!
I'm all for it! Some of my favorite recordings have piano accompaniment, and there's nothing like playing with a good piano player--it brings wonderful lift to the tunes.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by mcswiss
Re: Arise, piano players!
Nick, piano is coming back in Irish music in these years. Lots of recent recordings actually have the piano accompaniment. Charlie Lennon, Seamus Quinn, Brian McGrath, Geraldine Cotter, and Felix Dolan still keep busy. And of course, young John Blake provides the tasteful backing on the piano as well as the guitar and bouzouki: http://www.claddaghrecords.com/www/product.asp?pID=1596&cID=17
And here's a recent recording of Padraig O'Reilly, the pianist with the Kilfenora Ceili Band: http://www.copperplatedistribution.com/rrcd001.html
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by slainte
Re: Arise, piano players!
Oops, Padraig O'Reilly plays with the Ennis Ceili Band.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by slainte
Re: Arise, piano players!
I am all for it, I love the sound of a piano in this music.
My wife has become frustrated with her fiddle playing, and was an accomplished classical pianist in her youth. We are adding on to our house, and the piano is moving upstairs to a more appropriate position of honor. Hopefully that will spur her to try applying her new knowledge of ITM to her old skills of piano playing, and she will find a new outlet for her music.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Arise, piano players!
Slainte, thank you for that Padraig O' Reilly link; despite the miserably short sound-clips, it's obviously absolutely marvellous music.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Arise, piano players!
Hi Nick,
I also like a piano in a session or ceili band if it's played well. Comhaltas I suppose do their bit by making sure that pianos are available for ceili band competitions Of course part of the problem with pianos in sessions is finding pubs that have a piano that's in tune, as Bren says, or indeed a piano at all. I can think of just two pubs in my area, (West Cork, Ireland) that have pianos in working order and concert pitch, the Jolly Roger, Sherkin Island, and Casey's bar, Baltimore. Session pianists, please support these pianos if you find yourself in a session in one of these bars!
For anyone wanting to hear tastefull piano accompaniment to ITM I recomend Ollie Ross on Peter Horan and Gerry Harringtons' CD, Fortune favours the merry, http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1610
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by cathycook
Re: Arise, piano players!
Here's the guy who sold me on the idea of all this piano talk. Before hearing this guy, I usually didn't like teven he thought of big old pianos being played i in trad music. But he is a master.
http://www.macmorin.com/music.htm
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by MR.
Re: Arise, piano players!
Subject translated - 'Stand up and move away from the piano!'
Heh heh...
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by continuo
Re: Arise, piano players!
I guess I am outnumbered here
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Arise, piano players!
Yes, yes, by all means, get that pub piano tuned!
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Arise, piano players!
I suppose now I will have to learn to play Andrew Lloyd Weber-esque stuff on the box.
What key box would work best? G/D, E/A C#/D or B/C?
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Arise, piano players!
88-key box of course
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by Bren
Re: Arise, piano players!
Though I personally don't necessary always like the sound of the piano in this context, some of the piano backing arrangements I've heard are very musical and because of this pleasant to listen to.
I like this one:
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_207_4_clare_musicians/
# Posted on July 7th 2007 by Risto
Re: Arise, piano players!
When I take the extra time to write out & then learn piano arrangements of Irish music..... I find that the effort is well worth it.
Often piano sounds too 'box-y' and 'vertical' to my ears for it to be pleasing, but not always - it depends on the player, of course.
# Posted on July 7th 2007 by morning star
Re: Arise, piano players!
Thanks, Risto for the link to the clip. I believe D. McSherry also plays flute.
# Posted on July 7th 2007 by slainte
Re: Arise, piano players!
My twa farthings:
I had never been inclined toward playing with a piano present, perhaps since I always thought its presence far too dominant, rather like having a chanter that cannot compete with the drones and regulators. Too loud, and too domineering, I thought. Definately not for small groups, at least, and my prejudice has always been toward smaller groups anyway.
I had my mind changed by hearing someone really good (to my taste, anyway) playing with a rather accomplished Cape Breton fiddler, name of Buddy something, the daughter plays too I hear. Changed my mind completely, and I now rather enjoy listening to piano in the right context. It most definately can be done well.
One scream of pain and anguish, however--- let it be a REAL PIANO, please. Oh Creator, may I never have to listen to another plinky-tinny-child'stoy-sounding-cheap-piece-of-junk-portable-electric-thingy in this lifetime. Atrocious, I tell you.
The accursed 88-key laptop.
They should only be issued to buskers working the subway platforms, and pray for a train to go by.
Ah, there's my coffee.
So, where were we? oh, yes, polite commentary on keyboards, and the fine folk who play them.
Cheers.
# Posted on July 7th 2007 by Piece
Re: Arise, piano players!
Yes, yes, yes to the piano! Thank you Felix Dolan and Brian Mc Garth for your contribution to ITM. Michael Coleman could have used you for accompanists. Oh well...
# Posted on July 7th 2007 by pennhorse
Re: Arise, piano players!
I hated the piano, one of my favourite instruments, in Irish music. Seemed to just play a vamp beat, and was dreadful. The piano was replaced by the guitar, which was a vast improvement.
Having sais that Michael O'Sullivan is a wonderful musician, and plays great stuff, and I remember playing in Molloy's with a lady who played the tunes, the melody, on a keyboard and it was great.
So there.
# Posted on July 8th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Arise, piano players!
I had the pleasure of paying in a couple of sessions up in Manhattan and Brooklyn recently, where Felix Dolan's son Brendan was present, playing piano (he also plays flute). Lovely, tasteful accompaniment.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by drinharp
Re: Arise, piano players!
One of the troubles is that generally there just aren't wonderful fag burned pianos in pubs anymore. The ones that you see are often neglected and untuned for years.
The piano is a fab backing instrument and in order to recapture the tradition, I would suggest the purists will have to hold their breath and accept geezahs playing synthetic instruments with amps. With appropriate and quality equipment you can barely tell the difference. Keyboards aren't all cheap biros made by Cassio ! And, indeed, most important is the quality of the joanna basher him or herself!
By the way:
When I was a kid there were "pub piano players" in nearly every pub in London. The last one I ever saw was about ten years ago at a place called the Cat's Back in Wandsworth. He was about eighty then and presumably "retired" now. Presumably the death of the pub piano tradition gave rise to the death of the pub piano.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Arise, piano players!
Well, you missed the old governor of the Rutland Arms, about a couple of hundred yards from the Blythe Hill Tavern. He died just a couple of years ago. Prior to that his pub was a local haven for all sorts of jazz music, about 4 or 5 nights a week, from Trad jazz to Modern jazz. He himself was pretty handy on the piana playing all sorts of 40's style jazz. After he died the pub kept going as a music venue for a while but I notice very recently the shutters are up and so are the For Sale signs, so there goes another London pub institution. Ironically that and the Blythe are, or were, the only two local pubs doing live music. So now if you want live music round there you'll have to come and listen to me and my mates.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Arise, piano players!
AAAAAGH!!! I missed it. I play the piano myself and I feel very strongly about its place in ITM.
I CANT BLOODY STAND IT in the ITM scene.
I know full well loads of people are going to chastise me for being a hypocrite because I play the guitar too but the piano is just plain wrong in a session.
Now don’t pick me up wrong, its one of my favourite instruments and I love to play it but I have yet to hear a piano that fits in a session.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by session savage
Re: Arise, piano players!
Fair enough, each to their own. I think it sounds good in the right hands.Certainly better than guitar, though I know that's a sweeping statement.
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Arise, piano players!
I can easily say that i agree with your comments 99% of the time KML, but piano better than guitar.... ARE YOU MAD MAN!!!
Crazy talk
# Posted on July 9th 2007 by session savage
Pub pianist competitions
HI
This is my first post to this group, and I found it via Google (where else) looking for information and resources about pub pianists
I am really into live amateur singing with pub piano style accompanyment, and looking to try to re-create in Europe the American concept of Dueling pianists here in Europe. It is so much better than Karaoke
Googling around I found that in Yorkshire they had a "pianist of the year" called Clive Conlon
http://www.huddsonline.co.uk/whats_on_in_hudds_december.htm
I was thinking about the rules for a competition, because apart from Colin Sell style technical skills (vast memory of songs embedded in your memory and excellent technical skills) there is also the issue of charisma. someone who can lead the singing along...
So here are the questions
If there are pub pianists "out there" can they identify themselves.
If I was going to organise a "pub pianist of the year" competition, who would be judges
Where would the right places to publicize it
Why do so few of the American format bars exist in Europe.
I live in Cracow Poland and am interested in trying to establihs this type of venue./format here, more for fun than as a business
In the America format. the pianists get tips from those competing to have their songs played
there are slick formats like http://www.howlatthemoon.com/
Dueling piano bars like Sweet Caroline's Dueling Piano Bar
in TIme Square
There are players like http://www.pattylund.actorsite.com/photo2.html
who went on tour to a Dutch place called Crazy Pianos in Schevinengen
Are there any places in Ireland that meet the spec?
seasons greetings
Richard
# Posted on December 17th 2007 by Richard L