Hey guys,
I'm just home from a session in my area and something very strange happened to me while I was there. I arrived at the session at about 5 or 10 minutes before the session was supposed to start because the place is usually packed and it's easier to find a seat if you go early. So anyways, I find a seat and start playing when the session starts, and everything's fine until at about a half an hour in one of the guys says to me that I have to get up. I assumed he was joking for a few minutes until he started getting really aggressive about it (cursing etc.) and I eventually had to move not only away from the spot I was in but I also had to get up out of my chair so that this man's friend could sit next to him, and I was forced to stand until a man I had been talking to earlier who was watching the session gave me his chair before leaving. (like I said the place was blocked and there wasn't much in the way of chairs)
Does this seem out of the ordinary to you guys or is it just something I'm gonna have to get used to as a session player? I really don't mean to complain or anything, I've just never experienced this before and I was wondering if I should anticipate experiencing it again.
Oh, and keep in mind while reading this that I'm only sixteen years old and the other man was about 70 so I didn't really want to get into an argument with him.
this is strange and wrong the older generation should be very supportive of the younger players
What instrument do you play in the session??
What did the old fella play??
Was it your first time at the session maybe some people have the same seats each week?? If so the old fella could have been playing and sitting on that seat for the last 50 years
From your description, that's just plain and simple rude behaviour and bullying a young person. Even if he's a brilliant player and you're a relative learner (I don't know this, I'm just saying even if), there is no excuse. Are these guys the so-called session leaders? Are they the paid players? Even if they are there's no need to start cursing. Did you say anything to arouse their wrath?
I was playing the guitar and whistle (my flute's in the shop), the old fella was playing the accordion and the guy who wanted the seat was playing the mandola. Also, I go to the session as often as I can manage (it's in the middle of the day so I can mostly just go in the summer and on holidays but I've gone for the past 3 weeks and over Christmas.
But yeah, the guy does normally sit there so I had no trouble with moving with my chair to another spot around the table but he insisted that I get out of my chair too which resulted in me not having a place to sit.
The old guy, I think, was a session leader, but I'm not altogether sure, and I don't think the other guy was. Also, I didn't say anything to arouse the wrath except not moving when I thought it was supposed to be a joke.
It seems to me that WE should decide when to get up and move, whether out of respect for older players or if we judge that we are not contributing to the session.
Maybe they were sweethearts.
I know I wouldn't put up with that if I saw that happening to someone else, especially a young'un not used to scraping. I wonder what the others in the group did. If this behavior is reflective of the usual tone of the session, well, there it is, it is what it is. Otherwise I would point out that that was not the way our session works.
On the other hand, If it happened to me, I would probably have just moved or left to avoid ruining the night for everyone else.
It's sad that this sort of thing happens. Given the aging in the ITM population that I've observed here in the States, the older folks should be thrilled to have someone your age interested.
I am a 'sort of old f_ rt' who started late (though actually maybe one of the younger players where I have played in) The older players have been very encourageing and supportive.
My problems have been with 30 and 40 somethings who percieve themselves as uniquely/supremely talented and view sessions as a solo performance (by them) with a back up band (everyone else).
Be confident in trying to play in, but learn from the experience in the circle and give some defference to the folks who have been playing before I was born.
dannym wries: "But yeah, the guy does normally sit there"
~~~
So you knew it, the box player knew it, and the mandola player knew it. Sounds to me like you were sitting in one of the anchor's chairs. If it were one of the sessions I host I would have asked you to move too. The only criticism I can think of is for the box player is that he might have reminded you at the start that the chair was reserved, but he might have assumed you understood this already -- which you apparently did.
On the bright side... it's possible that you were allowed to sit there until the regular arrived because the box player was being supportive and wanted to give you the opportunity to back the tunes until the regular arrived. He might have been interested in what you did, and it might have actually been encouragement. But however you look at it -- you were sitting in a regular's chair. The wise thing to do, since you arrived early, would have been to avoid that chair and sit in another one nearby.
"This is strange and wrong the older generation should be very supportive of the younger players"
But more importantly, the younger players are supposed to defer to the older players (after all, they've got the knowledge and the history of the tradition, and they might not be around for too much longer). In the end, it tends to be the younger players that end up not realizing when they've stepped in something socially.
I've seen this happen a few times in different places. It's not so unusual, though it's often pretty awkward for all concerned when it
happens. While "first come, first served" often applies to session seating, it's usually open for exceptions--especially if the exception is made by a person who is clearly leading the session (and if dannym arrived early, the next people to arrive were probably the session leaders).
Now, I've never met Danny, and I don't know anybody at this session, but I do feel like I've seen a similar story play out before, and it goes a bit like this:
Charlie is a good kid, and a decent musician, but he can be a little too gregarious and enthusiastic--maybe even to the point of being a little tiresome to the older musicians (as is sometimes the case). He tends to start tunes to often and too quickly (without allowing proper downtime between sets), and maybe he likes to play faster than the other folks prefer... Maybe he even tends to speed up when playing... He plays a bunch of different instruments, and is talented, but he's not really a mature, solid musician yet. But then again, he's still young. While he might be a little cocky, he's not a bad kid, and he'll likely learn to settle down and become a really nice player in the next few years.
Now the session leader is sitting next to Charlie and things are all fine. The music is fine, and and lo and behold, one of the great (old) local fiddlers appears in the wings of the session; he was invited months ago by the session leader, but this is the first time in a while he's been able to get out of the house; but he has no seat; he needs one too, since his hip has been acting up lately. So the session leader makes a choice, and asks young Charlie to respect his elders and let the old fellow have his seat at the table (maybe Charlie could even learn something from watching the old fellow).
But Charlie thinks the session leader must be joking! Leave this nice seat? Ridiculous! Charlie was there first! The session leader should ask somebody else to get up, or the old fellow can just stand around and wait his turn like anybody else (he should have come early himself), or maybe the session leader should give up his own stupid seat if he cares so much! Charlie's having a grand time right there, and doesn't want to leave! Charlie stays right where he's sitting.
This really cheeses off the session leader. Who does this kid think he is? There's the great old fiddle player there (who came in to play tunes with the session leader), and Charlie doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about him or anything else but his nice, comfortable seat right in the middle of everything. So the session leader gets annoyed, and decides to make his point more firmly--using a couple choice phrases he learned years ago in the tough part of Galway--and boots the cheeky little kid out of his seat, partly to make room for the old fiddler, but also partly to teach Charlie his proper place.
In the end, if I were in the session leader's place, I might do the same in asking Charlie to get up, or at least make room (though I hope I'd be a little more tactful about it). In the end, it should generally be the session leader's perogative to do whatever he/she thinks is best for the session, but he or she is really supposed to be as polite as the situation warrants.
Still, this story was a bit different from Danny's, and we don't know the whole story around Danny's session folks either. In the end, DAnny, it's best not to fret over it too much, or to try to argue. If you hold your head high, smile, and be friendly about it (even in the face of other people's impoliteness), you'll do yourself a much bigger service in the end than if you butt heads with people at a session.
Flip the viewpoint of a story, and often the protagonist becomes antagonist. Georgi raises a good point here, we need to scratch beneath the surface events, and look at history, movtivation, and a whole lot of other issues, before we can make a wise judgement. A whole lot better approach than leaping to conclusions!!!!!
And how do you find out these other issues so you can choose wisely? Watch, listen and learn......
I think a lot of people aren't understanding the set up of this session. You have to go find a chair in the room, it's not like the chair is attached to the table. You go find a chair, bring it over and play, and if someone comes late you move around to accomodate them. It wasn't the moving out of his spot that I had the problem with, it was the giving up the chair when there weren't any others to be had.
If there weren't other chairs to be had, then what's the use in merely moving your chair over? You weren't expecting the mandola player to stand, were you?
It's just possible that he finds it painful or uncomfortable to stand for too long, gets to the pub thinking great, I'm only thirty seconds from a seat and some blessed relief from this sciatica/whatever, aaargh, no seats - young fella, get up and give the older fella a seat. Maybe not by I could relate if it was true!
There was a time when a 16yo would have given up his seat automatically to an older person. Those days are gone of course but I'll bet the box player urging you to give up your seat did it many a time when he was a kid
"giving up the chair when there weren't any others to be had".
My attitude is changing since my first post.
I was judging the situation from the sessions that I attend where we move around when someone else comes up with a chair. All are equal. All are friends. No position is better or more honorable than the others
My eyes were opened wider by Georgi and Phantom Button (thanks, guys). I guess my experience with different types of sessions is limited.
It would have been the thing to do in whatever situation, not just sessions, to give up a seat for an older gentleman, especially 70 years old!!
It's all well and good to respect your elders, but the elder cursing out the kid is what bothers me. There's no need for that. If I were on the receiving end of that I wouldn't want to go back. Or maybe that's what they intended.
the 70yo was the box player already sitting, but nevertheless ...I suspect when you get to that age you're not shy at telling young people when to shift if they're slow on the uptake!
"It wasn't the moving out of his spot that I had the problem with, it was the giving up the chair when there weren't any others to be had"
So Danny a 16 year old has problems giving up his seat to a pensioner. I wonder Danny if you were on a train or a bus and there were no seats left and a pensioner came on board would you give up your seat for them?
The same logic applies here. If a respected old musician comes into a session it is simply good manners to give them a seat, but if no one volunteers then the session leader is well within their right to ask a younger person to give up their seat. The fact that you didn't see this leads me to conclude that you've no manners or respect for older people. I've seen very well known, top quality younger musicians happily give up their seats to older players. Sometimes the younger players even put their instruments awway just to listen and learn from their elders.
If I were you I'd go back to the session next time and apologise before even taking out your instrument.
ok sorry i misunderstood, but still it seems to me that the session leader is within his rights to ask you to give up your seat for his friend because it's his session and I suspect the reason that he was cursing at you was because (a) you didn't move and (b) perhaps your playing wasn't to his taste and while he could tolerate it for a while when you refused to give up your seat for his friend then he just snapped.
There's a lot about sessions that you only learn through harsh lessons like this. Sessions aren't free for alls and so there are subtle, unsaid rules you need to learn and obey if you want to fit in. I'd still apologise next time you see them, chances are the older guy will apologise to you for cursing at you and will be happy to have you back at the session, otherwise you may get the cold shoulder from now on.
yeah but the old bloke wanted his mate to sit next to him so he could have a chat.
and (40 or so) is old enough
doesn't matter who was the better musician
young people coming in early and grabbing the seats is a bit like the mythical Germans with their beach towels
anyway you gave up your seat, then got another one eventually, so you survived
Q. would you have given the mandola guy a seat eventually if he had been the one "forced to stand" or would you have stayed put all night?
I figure the same guy who gave me a chair would've given him one. I just didn't wanna be walking around searching for a chair a second time. Besides, it was immediate reaction the box player had that bothered me.
"I figure the same guy who gave me a chair would've given him one. I just didn't wanna be walking around searching for a chair a second time."
~~~
So you would have left the other session-leader standing (until he found his own chair--if he could have done so at all). That's a bit like going over to someone's house to watch TV, then hogging the couch and the remote.
I guess it's not really surprising that the box player asked you to give up your seat. I probably would have done so too. If he was rude, it's probably because he was in a surly mood, though it's possible that you had been doing something that rubbed him the wrong way earlier on. Some people are naturally surly, and some need help to get there.
At any rate, there's not much sense in fretting over it. Just file it away for future reference, and don't stew. If the box player is in his 70s, and people consider it his session, then what he says probably goes--regardless of whether it seems fair or not. It's a bit primitive, but that's how it works at most of the sessions I go to. I bet there's a good number of folks here (myself included) who have made similar mistakes, and gotten similar treatment. That's how we all learn what works and what doesn't.
The more dignity you show in the face of a situation like that, the more respect you'll get from everybody. It's all part of learning to play Irish music anyway.
I think a more pertinant question is: What the hell is a session leader doing turning up half an hour after a session starts? That's shocking, absolutely abysmal, and by far the most appaling lack of manners that anyone in this entire senario has shown. If he's being paid then he's showing a horrifying lack of professionalism and should lose the gig if it's the sort of thing he does regularly. If he's not being paid then I don't understand how he could claim to be a leader - the purpose of a leader is to make sure there's tunes going from the word go, and make sure there's tunes being played if there's a bit of a lull. A job that can't be done if he's late.
Session? On time? I am reminded of the aprocryphal tourist who turned up at the Taybank Hotel in Dunkeld and asked "At what time does the spontaneous music begin?"
what if the "session leader" has turned up on time but the young seat grabbers have turned up even earlier? Where will it end?
Kenny's comments on the latest "etiquette" thread sum up what most people would instinctively do out of good manners..
Eh?? What the devil happened to the rest of my rant!
What?!!?, what?!!? You mean to tell me I can't make a living out of this "folk and traditional music" stuff?!!? Ooops
Oh well, to sum up the equally long second paragraph, seats are important. I would suggest a shooting stick as a possible solution. But please don't suggest people my age and younger have no manners. There are some well mannered young people (of course, I'm not one of them but supine)
Bren, weelll, no, but if you're getting paid to lead a session from 9 till 11 (for example) it's not good form to gander in at half past.
In a sense I take your point about people turning up earlier and earlier, that said all I meant was most sessions have an advertised start time and the session leader really should be there in ready to play at that time. We had a tricky one whereby the rapper dance side I'm in practiced before the session, but we accepted that we would clear out from the main playing space when the leader arrived (or at 9, depending on which was sooner) as we didn't want to jepordise his income. We also agreed not to start "his" session before he arrived unless that was after 9:30, in which case we made good the chance for some less well known tunes.
And all was wonderful and both sides coexisted peacefully (for the most part).
As the old saying goes, it isn't what was said, it's the way it was said.
Asking you to move, if done politely and respectfully, maybe even explaining why, is appropriate and no one can find fault.
Getting angry and cursing, no matter how in the right a person is, even if it's paid leader who has sat in that chair every night for 50 years, is just childish and inappropriate, IMHO.
Phantom ascertains that everyone knew where people sat. But big deal. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter about the chair. Maybe Danny hadn't sussed out all the subtle dynamics of who sits where every week. Even if the player was Michael Coleman himself, he fell from grace by cursing out at a young lad of sixteen.
georgi says: "...using a couple choice phrases he learned years ago in the tough part of Galway" ---- the tough part of Galway? where's that?
And frisbee you chose your monicker well. You seem to change your opinion on this depending on which contributor is throwing you.
I think we have all had a moment or two of annoyance at other session members, and we all have our pet annoyances. Take a deep breath and think " I am playing with other people, music I love"
What? Session players can't play standing up?? I'm shocked... shocked I say! Giggers (those who are described by a word that has no origin) mostly stand up, and sometimes for a great long while. Problem, as I see it, is where to set the pint while you're getting busy...
Key Maniac Lad, you chose your moniker well too because only a maniac would think I kept changing my opinion on this!
I didn't change my opinion, I only slightly altered it when I realised that it wasn't the 70 year old that he was asked to give his seat up for. I still think he was in the wrong and can understand why the older guy shouted/cursed at him. There's a general session ettiquette rule that you don't sit in one of the main session seats unless (a) you are one of the session leaders or (b) you are asked to sit there by one of the session leaders or (c) you ask one of the session leaders if the seat is free and they say it is.
From what I gather dannym just sat in this seat beside the session leader without asking which is forgiveable for a session novice so long as he learns from it and apologises next time he goes in.
I'm only saying this because when I was younger I was blissfully ignorant of many session rules and it took a few harsh lessons for me to understand what you do and don't do, particularly if you play guitar!
frisbee, as it says on my bio, if you've read it: "So please don't take too many of my comments too seriously..except when it matters."
Anyway, in my book there's never any excuse for cursing and (I presume) swearing at another session member - that said, I've done it myself when severely provoked. I just think danny was being totally naive and that should have been taken into account. Anyway, like many of these things they blow over. Or they should.
Pretty much agreement here that dannym should have given up his seat. But he didn't. He thought the guy was joking. Can you imagine how that would have annoyed him having asked politely? Sometimes, a good old mouthful is the only thing that works. And in this case, it was the only thing that got dannym off his precious chair. Here here for a good curse. Especially aimed at young uns who are out of order
Oh and guys, sorry, I thought I'd mentioned this, but the reason I thought he was joking was because I hadn't seen the guy who wanted the seat. Therefore, being ordered to move without being told why seemed very strange (it seemed to me like he'd just decided he didn't want me sitting in the chair).
Question: what do you normally play in a session - your whistle or your guitar? Do you rely on playing chords on your guitar when you don't know the tunes? If it's your guitar you usually play, then you might consider that some degree of anti-backer sentiment was a contributing factor. Some people think that because guitarists aren't essential to the session's survival (they're not providing the evening's tunes) then the guitarist can be treated as an expendable 2nd class citizen to be driven to the outside of the group so the others can have their tunes. If this is the case, then it's nothing personal against you. It's just the way it is.
This all sounds a bit more like a simple case of the old "Generation gap" to me.
Perhaps, the older musicians should be more encouraging but a young sixteen year old should also be more respectful in this situation. I know that deference is an ugly word these days and young people no longer expect to be "seen and not heard" but not all of us old yins have quite grasped this yet. Please bear with us.
Danny, I'm sure you mean well but it's probably better to err on the side of caution in these situations. Just be polite and even apologise if you feel it's necessary and I'm sure you'll be made to feel welcome again.
I don't think any of us(young or old) should take things for granted when entering a session. We should always give the leaders and regulars their place.
I think we're all guilty on this website of making snap judgements based on one person's side of the story. Who knows: maybe Danny was just blissfully unaware of the session etiquette at that location; on the other hand, the old guy might have been a nasty oul' crap.
Until we hear another point of view we won't really know.
Interesting discussion though; I personally think you don't have to use "language" if someone needs to be told to give up their seat.
ha ha, and where one of the enduring differences between this mustard thing and a real session is you can sweaqr as much as you want in the real world.
There's some strange stuff going on with TheSession -
1. No dots have yet appeared for tune 7433 (submitted Monday) but 7438 (submitted Tuesday) is OK ???
2. If I download my tunebook , it comes out in 'tune number order' ie in the order the tunes were originally submitted. This was a problem a while ago but I thought it was fixed.??
Sorry for thread drift - I've emailed Jeremy but he must be very busy ! I'll put some comments *relevant* to the thread in the next posting
Back to the original Strange Stuff : always a bit of a problem commenting on such reports, with only half the story.
Certainly I'm very wary of treading on toes in sessions new to me - I'd usually hesitate to take a seat (even as a fiddle player) in the Inner Circle, preferring to stay on the Fringe till I'd established the 'Form'.
There was an appropriate parable in one of the gospels about the man who was invited to the king's feast. He came and sat at one of the 'plum' seats at the king's table, but was asked to vacate and move down when one of the more important guests arrived. Rather take a lower seat first, and enjoy the honour of being asked to 'move up' . A good lesson indeed.
I don't think it should really have anything to do with age. It should be to do with ability and experience. OK, these often go hand in hand with age, but not always. If someone is 20 or 50 and hopeless, I won't hesitate in asking them to stop ... politely first, of course, but I wouldn't be averse to swearing at them if they persist.
There are though, as ever, unfortunate exceptions to this. Sometimes I suffer hopeless arrogant youngsters and feel I can't do anything about them because it would be construed as bullying. This is a pity. And, anyone who knows me understands why I am powerless to do anything about a certain bodhran player
Llig: come off it. Stop being so pc: It's age. You don't ''think it should really have anything to do with".. blah blah... but you know what I'm talking about. "Ability and experience..." Stop being so PC. The guy is CRANKY with a capital K. Same as you an' me...
Unfortunately I'm not old enough to be allowed to be cranKy. Now, I am descibed as being arrogant and rude. I'll be the same when I'm 70, though then I'll be allowed to get away with it.
The old fella was probably cranky but he's probably paid his dues.
Anyone who's dealt with teenage boys knows that gentle suggestions fall on deaf ears
New here, can I have a seat? Ould folk can be cranky, doff yer hat and never mind, you can go mad thinking about things like that that get more complicated every time you try to figure it out, youth is arrogent but age envies youth. Keep playing is all, good lad for seeking advice too. Indeed, where is the 'tough' part of Galway?
It is typically good eticate when you are younger to give up your seat for someone who is older, but the way he reacted was just childish, at 70 years old he should have known better by then.
Have you ever told a Connemara man you think he might be unreasonable?? That would loose you more than your chair I reckon, on a Saturday night rootin' tootin' and shootin' in Carna. Don't let people put you off, I made that mistake a long long time ago when I came to Galway first, I was laughed at for my Tourmakeady Irish and I swore I'd never speak Irish again. I didn't even bother try to join a session as it seemed closed shop. I reacted just as bull thick as they were and was stupid to heed them but when you are young such things can prey on you and you feel insecure and confused as to why you seem out of place and what great secret is it you aren't in on. Never mind being scolded, don't let it get to you or put you off, if you said you were sorry even though you maybe didn't know why then that that's all you can do, be careful if thing seem to stop being fun, again, good man for asking advice.
Strange Stuff
Strange Stuff
Hey guys,
I'm just home from a session in my area and something very strange happened to me while I was there. I arrived at the session at about 5 or 10 minutes before the session was supposed to start because the place is usually packed and it's easier to find a seat if you go early. So anyways, I find a seat and start playing when the session starts, and everything's fine until at about a half an hour in one of the guys says to me that I have to get up. I assumed he was joking for a few minutes until he started getting really aggressive about it (cursing etc.) and I eventually had to move not only away from the spot I was in but I also had to get up out of my chair so that this man's friend could sit next to him, and I was forced to stand until a man I had been talking to earlier who was watching the session gave me his chair before leaving. (like I said the place was blocked and there wasn't much in the way of chairs)
Does this seem out of the ordinary to you guys or is it just something I'm gonna have to get used to as a session player? I really don't mean to complain or anything, I've just never experienced this before and I was wondering if I should anticipate experiencing it again.
Oh, and keep in mind while reading this that I'm only sixteen years old and the other man was about 70 so I didn't really want to get into an argument with him.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by dannym
Re: Strange Stuff
P.S. I also go to this session fairly frequently.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by dannym
Re: Strange Stuff
this is strange and wrong the older generation should be very supportive of the younger players
What instrument do you play in the session??
What did the old fella play??
Was it your first time at the session maybe some people have the same seats each week?? If so the old fella could have been playing and sitting on that seat for the last 50 years
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Irish Mandolin
Re: Strange Stuff
From your description, that's just plain and simple rude behaviour and bullying a young person. Even if he's a brilliant player and you're a relative learner (I don't know this, I'm just saying even if), there is no excuse. Are these guys the so-called session leaders? Are they the paid players? Even if they are there's no need to start cursing. Did you say anything to arouse their wrath?
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Strange Stuff
I was playing the guitar and whistle (my flute's in the shop), the old fella was playing the accordion and the guy who wanted the seat was playing the mandola. Also, I go to the session as often as I can manage (it's in the middle of the day so I can mostly just go in the summer and on holidays but I've gone for the past 3 weeks and over Christmas.
But yeah, the guy does normally sit there so I had no trouble with moving with my chair to another spot around the table but he insisted that I get out of my chair too which resulted in me not having a place to sit.
The old guy, I think, was a session leader, but I'm not altogether sure, and I don't think the other guy was. Also, I didn't say anything to arouse the wrath except not moving when I thought it was supposed to be a joke.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by dannym
Re: Strange Stuff
It seems to me that WE should decide when to get up and move, whether out of respect for older players or if we judge that we are not contributing to the session.
Maybe they were sweethearts.
I know I wouldn't put up with that if I saw that happening to someone else, especially a young'un not used to scraping. I wonder what the others in the group did. If this behavior is reflective of the usual tone of the session, well, there it is, it is what it is. Otherwise I would point out that that was not the way our session works.
On the other hand, If it happened to me, I would probably have just moved or left to avoid ruining the night for everyone else.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by feardearg
Re: Strange Stuff
It's sad that this sort of thing happens. Given the aging in the ITM population that I've observed here in the States, the older folks should be thrilled to have someone your age interested.
I am a 'sort of old f_ rt' who started late (though actually maybe one of the younger players where I have played in) The older players have been very encourageing and supportive.
My problems have been with 30 and 40 somethings who percieve themselves as uniquely/supremely talented and view sessions as a solo performance (by them) with a back up band (everyone else).
Be confident in trying to play in, but learn from the experience in the circle and give some defference to the folks who have been playing before I was born.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by zippydw
Re: Strange Stuff
dannym wries: "But yeah, the guy does normally sit there"
~~~
So you knew it, the box player knew it, and the mandola player knew it. Sounds to me like you were sitting in one of the anchor's chairs. If it were one of the sessions I host I would have asked you to move too. The only criticism I can think of is for the box player is that he might have reminded you at the start that the chair was reserved, but he might have assumed you understood this already -- which you apparently did.
On the bright side... it's possible that you were allowed to sit there until the regular arrived because the box player was being supportive and wanted to give you the opportunity to back the tunes until the regular arrived. He might have been interested in what you did, and it might have actually been encouragement. But however you look at it -- you were sitting in a regular's chair. The wise thing to do, since you arrived early, would have been to avoid that chair and sit in another one nearby.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Strange Stuff
"This is strange and wrong the older generation should be very supportive of the younger players"
But more importantly, the younger players are supposed to defer to the older players (after all, they've got the knowledge and the history of the tradition, and they might not be around for too much longer). In the end, it tends to be the younger players that end up not realizing when they've stepped in something socially.
I've seen this happen a few times in different places. It's not so unusual, though it's often pretty awkward for all concerned when it
happens. While "first come, first served" often applies to session seating, it's usually open for exceptions--especially if the exception is made by a person who is clearly leading the session (and if dannym arrived early, the next people to arrive were probably the session leaders).
Now, I've never met Danny, and I don't know anybody at this session, but I do feel like I've seen a similar story play out before, and it goes a bit like this:
Charlie is a good kid, and a decent musician, but he can be a little too gregarious and enthusiastic--maybe even to the point of being a little tiresome to the older musicians (as is sometimes the case). He tends to start tunes to often and too quickly (without allowing proper downtime between sets), and maybe he likes to play faster than the other folks prefer... Maybe he even tends to speed up when playing... He plays a bunch of different instruments, and is talented, but he's not really a mature, solid musician yet. But then again, he's still young. While he might be a little cocky, he's not a bad kid, and he'll likely learn to settle down and become a really nice player in the next few years.
Now the session leader is sitting next to Charlie and things are all fine. The music is fine, and and lo and behold, one of the great (old) local fiddlers appears in the wings of the session; he was invited months ago by the session leader, but this is the first time in a while he's been able to get out of the house; but he has no seat; he needs one too, since his hip has been acting up lately. So the session leader makes a choice, and asks young Charlie to respect his elders and let the old fellow have his seat at the table (maybe Charlie could even learn something from watching the old fellow).
But Charlie thinks the session leader must be joking! Leave this nice seat? Ridiculous! Charlie was there first! The session leader should ask somebody else to get up, or the old fellow can just stand around and wait his turn like anybody else (he should have come early himself), or maybe the session leader should give up his own stupid seat if he cares so much! Charlie's having a grand time right there, and doesn't want to leave! Charlie stays right where he's sitting.
This really cheeses off the session leader. Who does this kid think he is? There's the great old fiddle player there (who came in to play tunes with the session leader), and Charlie doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about him or anything else but his nice, comfortable seat right in the middle of everything. So the session leader gets annoyed, and decides to make his point more firmly--using a couple choice phrases he learned years ago in the tough part of Galway--and boots the cheeky little kid out of his seat, partly to make room for the old fiddler, but also partly to teach Charlie his proper place.
In the end, if I were in the session leader's place, I might do the same in asking Charlie to get up, or at least make room (though I hope I'd be a little more tactful about it). In the end, it should generally be the session leader's perogative to do whatever he/she thinks is best for the session, but he or she is really supposed to be as polite as the situation warrants.
Still, this story was a bit different from Danny's, and we don't know the whole story around Danny's session folks either. In the end, DAnny, it's best not to fret over it too much, or to try to argue. If you hold your head high, smile, and be friendly about it (even in the face of other people's impoliteness), you'll do yourself a much bigger service in the end than if you butt heads with people at a session.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: Strange Stuff
Wow Georgi. Can you say "litany"? The last paragraph was the only part that made a lot of sense.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Strange Stuff
Flip the viewpoint of a story, and often the protagonist becomes antagonist. Georgi raises a good point here, we need to scratch beneath the surface events, and look at history, movtivation, and a whole lot of other issues, before we can make a wise judgement. A whole lot better approach than leaping to conclusions!!!!!
And how do you find out these other issues so you can choose wisely? Watch, listen and learn......
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Strange Stuff
Yeah, I guess that was a bit long winded. My apologies. It didn't look nearly that long in my text editor.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: Strange Stuff
I think a lot of people aren't understanding the set up of this session. You have to go find a chair in the room, it's not like the chair is attached to the table. You go find a chair, bring it over and play, and if someone comes late you move around to accomodate them. It wasn't the moving out of his spot that I had the problem with, it was the giving up the chair when there weren't any others to be had.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by dannym
Re: Strange Stuff
If there weren't other chairs to be had, then what's the use in merely moving your chair over? You weren't expecting the mandola player to stand, were you?
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: Strange Stuff
It's just possible that he finds it painful or uncomfortable to stand for too long, gets to the pub thinking great, I'm only thirty seconds from a seat and some blessed relief from this sciatica/whatever, aaargh, no seats - young fella, get up and give the older fella a seat. Maybe not by I could relate if it was true!
There was a time when a 16yo would have given up his seat automatically to an older person. Those days are gone of course but I'll bet the box player urging you to give up your seat did it many a time when he was a kid
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Bren
Re: Strange Stuff
"giving up the chair when there weren't any others to be had".
My attitude is changing since my first post.
I was judging the situation from the sessions that I attend where we move around when someone else comes up with a chair. All are equal. All are friends. No position is better or more honorable than the others
My eyes were opened wider by Georgi and Phantom Button (thanks, guys). I guess my experience with different types of sessions is limited.
It would have been the thing to do in whatever situation, not just sessions, to give up a seat for an older gentleman, especially 70 years old!!
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by feardearg
Re: Strange Stuff
It's all well and good to respect your elders, but the elder cursing out the kid is what bothers me. There's no need for that. If I were on the receiving end of that I wouldn't want to go back. Or maybe that's what they intended.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Strange Stuff
the 70yo was the box player already sitting, but nevertheless ...I suspect when you get to that age you're not shy at telling young people when to shift if they're slow on the uptake!
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Bren
Re: Strange Stuff
"It wasn't the moving out of his spot that I had the problem with, it was the giving up the chair when there weren't any others to be had"
So Danny a 16 year old has problems giving up his seat to a pensioner. I wonder Danny if you were on a train or a bus and there were no seats left and a pensioner came on board would you give up your seat for them?
The same logic applies here. If a respected old musician comes into a session it is simply good manners to give them a seat, but if no one volunteers then the session leader is well within their right to ask a younger person to give up their seat. The fact that you didn't see this leads me to conclude that you've no manners or respect for older people. I've seen very well known, top quality younger musicians happily give up their seats to older players. Sometimes the younger players even put their instruments awway just to listen and learn from their elders.
If I were you I'd go back to the session next time and apologise before even taking out your instrument.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Strange Stuff
Also guys, the guy who wanted the chair wasn't very old (40 or so), it was the guy who was mad that was 70.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by dannym
Re: Strange Stuff
People seem to think that it was the guy who wanted the chair that was 70, I don't know why but..
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by dannym
Re: Strange Stuff
ok sorry i misunderstood, but still it seems to me that the session leader is within his rights to ask you to give up your seat for his friend because it's his session and I suspect the reason that he was cursing at you was because (a) you didn't move and (b) perhaps your playing wasn't to his taste and while he could tolerate it for a while when you refused to give up your seat for his friend then he just snapped.
There's a lot about sessions that you only learn through harsh lessons like this. Sessions aren't free for alls and so there are subtle, unsaid rules you need to learn and obey if you want to fit in. I'd still apologise next time you see them, chances are the older guy will apologise to you for cursing at you and will be happy to have you back at the session, otherwise you may get the cold shoulder from now on.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Strange Stuff
yeah but the old bloke wanted his mate to sit next to him so he could have a chat.
and (40 or so) is old enough
doesn't matter who was the better musician
young people coming in early and grabbing the seats is a bit like the mythical Germans with their beach towels
anyway you gave up your seat, then got another one eventually, so you survived
Q. would you have given the mandola guy a seat eventually if he had been the one "forced to stand" or would you have stayed put all night?
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Bren
Re: Strange Stuff
I figure the same guy who gave me a chair would've given him one. I just didn't wanna be walking around searching for a chair a second time. Besides, it was immediate reaction the box player had that bothered me.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by dannym
Re: Strange Stuff
"(40 or so) is old enough"
Watch it, Bren! We 40 yr olds don't need any young whippersnappers giving up their seats for us!!!
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Strange Stuff
"I figure the same guy who gave me a chair would've given him one. I just didn't wanna be walking around searching for a chair a second time."
~~~
So you would have left the other session-leader standing (until he found his own chair--if he could have done so at all). That's a bit like going over to someone's house to watch TV, then hogging the couch and the remote.
I guess it's not really surprising that the box player asked you to give up your seat. I probably would have done so too. If he was rude, it's probably because he was in a surly mood, though it's possible that you had been doing something that rubbed him the wrong way earlier on. Some people are naturally surly, and some need help to get there.
At any rate, there's not much sense in fretting over it. Just file it away for future reference, and don't stew. If the box player is in his 70s, and people consider it his session, then what he says probably goes--regardless of whether it seems fair or not. It's a bit primitive, but that's how it works at most of the sessions I go to. I bet there's a good number of folks here (myself included) who have made similar mistakes, and gotten similar treatment. That's how we all learn what works and what doesn't.
The more dignity you show in the face of a situation like that, the more respect you'll get from everybody. It's all part of learning to play Irish music anyway.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: Strange Stuff
Where you sit in a session can make all the difference. That is why I always show up as early as possible & bring my own chair.
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Strange Stuff
I think a more pertinant question is: What the hell is a session leader doing turning up half an hour after a session starts? That's shocking, absolutely abysmal, and by far the most appaling lack of manners that anyone in this entire senario has shown. If he's being paid then he's showing a horrifying lack of professionalism and should lose the gig if it's the sort of thing he does regularly. If he's not being paid then I don't understand how he could claim to be a leader - the purpose of a leader is to make sure there's tunes going from the word go, and make sure there's tunes being played if there's a bit of a lull. A job that can't be done if he's late.
I know many sessions where not having a seat is
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Strange Stuff
woops andy fell off his chair
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Bren
Re: Strange Stuff
here, take my seat Andy ...
# Posted on July 3rd 2007 by Bren
Re: Strange Stuff
Session? On time? I am reminded of the aprocryphal tourist who turned up at the Taybank Hotel in Dunkeld and asked "At what time does the spontaneous music begin?"
what if the "session leader" has turned up on time but the young seat grabbers have turned up even earlier? Where will it end?
Kenny's comments on the latest "etiquette" thread sum up what most people would instinctively do out of good manners..
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Bren
Re: Strange Stuff
Eh?? What the devil happened to the rest of my rant!
What?!!?, what?!!? You mean to tell me I can't make a living out of this "folk and traditional music" stuff?!!? Ooops
Oh well, to sum up the equally long second paragraph, seats are important. I would suggest a shooting stick as a possible solution. But please don't suggest people my age and younger have no manners. There are some well mannered young people (of course, I'm not one of them but supine)
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Strange Stuff
Bren, weelll, no, but if you're getting paid to lead a session from 9 till 11 (for example) it's not good form to gander in at half past.
In a sense I take your point about people turning up earlier and earlier, that said all I meant was most sessions have an advertised start time and the session leader really should be there in ready to play at that time. We had a tricky one whereby the rapper dance side I'm in practiced before the session, but we accepted that we would clear out from the main playing space when the leader arrived (or at 9, depending on which was sooner) as we didn't want to jepordise his income. We also agreed not to start "his" session before he arrived unless that was after 9:30, in which case we made good the chance for some less well known tunes.
And all was wonderful and both sides coexisted peacefully (for the most part).
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Andy V
that should have read "depending on which was LATER"
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Strange Stuff
As the old saying goes, it isn't what was said, it's the way it was said.
Asking you to move, if done politely and respectfully, maybe even explaining why, is appropriate and no one can find fault.
Getting angry and cursing, no matter how in the right a person is, even if it's paid leader who has sat in that chair every night for 50 years, is just childish and inappropriate, IMHO.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Strange Stuff
Phantom ascertains that everyone knew where people sat. But big deal. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter about the chair. Maybe Danny hadn't sussed out all the subtle dynamics of who sits where every week. Even if the player was Michael Coleman himself, he fell from grace by cursing out at a young lad of sixteen.
georgi says: "...using a couple choice phrases he learned years ago in the tough part of Galway" ---- the tough part of Galway? where's that?
And frisbee you chose your monicker well. You seem to change your opinion on this depending on which contributor is throwing you.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Strange Stuff
I think we have all had a moment or two of annoyance at other session members, and we all have our pet annoyances. Take a deep breath and think " I am playing with other people, music I love"
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Joze
Re: Strange Stuff
Yeah, David - as long as you don't go insulting a young sixteen year old lad. As for me? I'm uninsultable. Or at least undeterred.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Strange Stuff
Quay? Que? What?
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Strange Stuff
What? Session players can't play standing up?? I'm shocked... shocked I say! Giggers (those who are described by a word that has no origin) mostly stand up, and sometimes for a great long while. Problem, as I see it, is where to set the pint while you're getting busy...
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by GDub
Re: Strange Stuff
Key Maniac Lad, you chose your moniker well too because only a maniac would think I kept changing my opinion on this!
I didn't change my opinion, I only slightly altered it when I realised that it wasn't the 70 year old that he was asked to give his seat up for. I still think he was in the wrong and can understand why the older guy shouted/cursed at him. There's a general session ettiquette rule that you don't sit in one of the main session seats unless (a) you are one of the session leaders or (b) you are asked to sit there by one of the session leaders or (c) you ask one of the session leaders if the seat is free and they say it is.
From what I gather dannym just sat in this seat beside the session leader without asking which is forgiveable for a session novice so long as he learns from it and apologises next time he goes in.
I'm only saying this because when I was younger I was blissfully ignorant of many session rules and it took a few harsh lessons for me to understand what you do and don't do, particularly if you play guitar!
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Strange Stuff
frisbee, as it says on my bio, if you've read it: "So please don't take too many of my comments too seriously..except when it matters."
Anyway, in my book there's never any excuse for cursing and (I presume) swearing at another session member - that said, I've done it myself when severely provoked. I just think danny was being totally naive and that should have been taken into account. Anyway, like many of these things they blow over. Or they should.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Strange Stuff
Pretty much agreement here that dannym should have given up his seat. But he didn't. He thought the guy was joking. Can you imagine how that would have annoyed him having asked politely? Sometimes, a good old mouthful is the only thing that works. And in this case, it was the only thing that got dannym off his precious chair. Here here for a good curse. Especially aimed at young uns who are out of order
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Strange Stuff
bollox, he didn't know he was out of order
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Strange Stuff
Oh and guys, sorry, I thought I'd mentioned this, but the reason I thought he was joking was because I hadn't seen the guy who wanted the seat. Therefore, being ordered to move without being told why seemed very strange (it seemed to me like he'd just decided he didn't want me sitting in the chair).
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by dannym
Re: Strange Stuff
Question: what do you normally play in a session - your whistle or your guitar? Do you rely on playing chords on your guitar when you don't know the tunes? If it's your guitar you usually play, then you might consider that some degree of anti-backer sentiment was a contributing factor. Some people think that because guitarists aren't essential to the session's survival (they're not providing the evening's tunes) then the guitarist can be treated as an expendable 2nd class citizen to be driven to the outside of the group so the others can have their tunes. If this is the case, then it's nothing personal against you. It's just the way it is.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Strange Stuff
It's irrelevant that you hadn't seen the guy who wanted the seat. You were asked to move. Life sucks sometimes.
And the point about strumming is relevant
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Strange Stuff
This all sounds a bit more like a simple case of the old "Generation gap" to me.
Perhaps, the older musicians should be more encouraging but a young sixteen year old should also be more respectful in this situation. I know that deference is an ugly word these days and young people no longer expect to be "seen and not heard" but not all of us old yins have quite grasped this yet. Please bear with us.
Danny, I'm sure you mean well but it's probably better to err on the side of caution in these situations. Just be polite and even apologise if you feel it's necessary and I'm sure you'll be made to feel welcome again.
I don't think any of us(young or old) should take things for granted when entering a session. We should always give the leaders and regulars their place.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by John J.
Re: Strange Stuff
I think we're all guilty on this website of making snap judgements based on one person's side of the story. Who knows: maybe Danny was just blissfully unaware of the session etiquette at that location; on the other hand, the old guy might have been a nasty oul' crap.
Until we hear another point of view we won't really know.
Interesting discussion though; I personally think you don't have to use "language" if someone needs to be told to give up their seat.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Strange Stuff
...where "crap" means bo**ocks, of course
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Strange Stuff
ha ha, and where one of the enduring differences between this mustard thing and a real session is you can sweaqr as much as you want in the real world.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
More Strange Stuff
There's some strange stuff going on with TheSession -
1. No dots have yet appeared for tune 7433 (submitted Monday) but 7438 (submitted Tuesday) is OK ???
2. If I download my tunebook , it comes out in 'tune number order' ie in the order the tunes were originally submitted. This was a problem a while ago but I thought it was fixed.??
Sorry for thread drift - I've emailed Jeremy but he must be very busy ! I'll put some comments *relevant* to the thread in the next posting
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by domnull
Re: Strange Stuff
Back to the original Strange Stuff : always a bit of a problem commenting on such reports, with only half the story.
Certainly I'm very wary of treading on toes in sessions new to me - I'd usually hesitate to take a seat (even as a fiddle player) in the Inner Circle, preferring to stay on the Fringe till I'd established the 'Form'.
There was an appropriate parable in one of the gospels about the man who was invited to the king's feast. He came and sat at one of the 'plum' seats at the king's table, but was asked to vacate and move down when one of the more important guests arrived. Rather take a lower seat first, and enjoy the honour of being asked to 'move up' . A good lesson indeed.
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by domnull
Re: Strange Stuff
What we're all avoiding is this: Old People Can Be Cranky. Gan'pa from the Simpsons summed it up perfectly. " Death stalks you at every turn!! ''
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Farr
Re: Strange Stuff
I don't think it should really have anything to do with age. It should be to do with ability and experience. OK, these often go hand in hand with age, but not always. If someone is 20 or 50 and hopeless, I won't hesitate in asking them to stop ... politely first, of course, but I wouldn't be averse to swearing at them if they persist.
There are though, as ever, unfortunate exceptions to this. Sometimes I suffer hopeless arrogant youngsters and feel I can't do anything about them because it would be construed as bullying. This is a pity. And, anyone who knows me understands why I am powerless to do anything about a certain bodhran player
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Strange Stuff
Hahaha the one that looks like my nana! Yeah, you have your work cut out with her
# Posted on July 4th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Strange Stuff
Maniac writes: "bollox, he didn't know he was out of order"
dannym wries: "But yeah, the guy does normally sit there"
# Posted on July 5th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Strange Stuff
Llig: come off it. Stop being so pc: It's age. You don't ''think it should really have anything to do with".. blah blah... but you know what I'm talking about. "Ability and experience..." Stop being so PC. The guy is CRANKY with a capital K. Same as you an' me...
# Posted on July 5th 2007 by Farr
Re: Strange Stuff
Unfortunately I'm not old enough to be allowed to be cranKy. Now, I am descibed as being arrogant and rude. I'll be the same when I'm 70, though then I'll be allowed to get away with it.
# Posted on July 5th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Strange Stuff
Button writes:dannym wries:
# Posted on July 5th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Strange Stuff
The old fella was probably cranky but he's probably paid his dues.
Anyone who's dealt with teenage boys knows that gentle suggestions fall on deaf ears
# Posted on July 5th 2007 by Bren
Re: Strange Stuff
New here, can I have a seat? Ould folk can be cranky, doff yer hat and never mind, you can go mad thinking about things like that that get more complicated every time you try to figure it out, youth is arrogent but age envies youth. Keep playing is all, good lad for seeking advice too. Indeed, where is the 'tough' part of Galway?
# Posted on July 5th 2007 by stevecomputer
Re: Strange Stuff
The toughside of Galway has to be Tuam! And in the city an area called Westside, but neither is all that bad.......
Oh yeah and of course the connies (connemara men) can be a bit rough around the edges too.............
# Posted on July 5th 2007 by Afrocelt
Re: Strange Stuff
It is typically good eticate when you are younger to give up your seat for someone who is older, but the way he reacted was just childish, at 70 years old he should have known better by then.
# Posted on July 5th 2007 by WannabeWhistler
Re: Strange Stuff
Have you ever told a Connemara man you think he might be unreasonable?? That would loose you more than your chair I reckon, on a Saturday night rootin' tootin' and shootin' in Carna. Don't let people put you off, I made that mistake a long long time ago when I came to Galway first, I was laughed at for my Tourmakeady Irish and I swore I'd never speak Irish again. I didn't even bother try to join a session as it seemed closed shop. I reacted just as bull thick as they were and was stupid to heed them but when you are young such things can prey on you and you feel insecure and confused as to why you seem out of place and what great secret is it you aren't in on. Never mind being scolded, don't let it get to you or put you off, if you said you were sorry even though you maybe didn't know why then that that's all you can do, be careful if thing seem to stop being fun, again, good man for asking advice.
# Posted on July 6th 2007 by stevecomputer