A bit of background. I have recently begun playing fiddle, and am bungling along on my own. So far I've been delighted at how quickly I've moved along -- but The Devil's Dream, a tune I'm working on, has me flummoxed.
The tab I have for this tune requires me to use the first finger on the E string, followed instantaneously by a first finger on the A string, then the third finger on the A string, and then immediately again by a first finger on the E string. That would be fine if I were playing a pavane, but this tune moves right along. I have good manual dexterity (play many other instruments, I like to learn new ones to keep myself humble), but I just don't see how this is going to work, short of me devoting the second half of my life to working toward playing this doggone tune up to tempo!
Is it acceptable for me to bar the E and A strings with the first finger at the first finger position, as one would bar strings on a guitar? Is this done in fiddling? I've tried it, and it works -- I'm able to play those first finger notes, flick down the third finger to play that D on the A string when I need it, and keep up to tempo. Otherwise, I'll have to play this critter reeeeeeaaally slowly. I'm tempted to just switch to another key that would result in easier fingering, but I can't just run from key to key all the time to get out of sticky situations.
So is what I'm suggesting something that is done, or am I really in outer space here? Or should I go with the notion of "well, it sounds good, it works well, so go for it"?
If I've really come up with something weird here, please be kind. I'm sorta bungling around in the dark fiddlewise!
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Tove, the easy answer is quit playing Devil's Dream! Nobody likes the tune anyway, and if you play it at the average session you won't have to worry about your fingers not working properly ever again...someone will see to that for you.
Sorry...seriously now, yes, you should "bar" the A and E strings with the index finger to get that passage. It's quite common in fiddling to do this (see also the first half of Drowsy Maggie for another common example).
The basic rule of thumb on fiddle (and most stringed instruments) when playing uptempo is to leave any fingers down as you put them down as long as you don't need to lift them. This minimizes excess motion, allowing your hand to relax. When you're doing this sort of one-finger doublestop (holding the B and f notes on the A and E strings at the same time), you may have to experiment a bit with finger placement, angle to the strings, perhaps even rocking it slightly, to get both notes cleanly.
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Thanks Will! Fear not, I shan't inflict The Devil's Dream on any sessions, my fiddling will be restricted to my closed room with the window unit running for a long time. My father, a longtime folk music collector and performer, used to play a great version of it on the banjo, and I always had a letch to play it on the fiddle -- which, ironically enough, my father talked me out of trying to play for years. It's just one of those things I want to do.
I had noticed that the same technique would work in Drowsy Maggie, and I'm glad to know that I'm on the right track. I don't want to end up in the situation I did when I tried to teach myself to play the piano for four years as a kid, and progressed right up to playing Bach two part inventions, with all the fingering technique of Chico Marx. It took another four years just to sort out all the disastrous fingerings I'd learned. Unlearning is a lot harder than learning -- and no books that I have available to me mentioned doublestop technique at all -- infact, I gave up on the books two weeks ago, after a week of using them, and struck out on my own!
Okay, back to my soundproofed room, and more fearsome scrapings!
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Well, the Dream is a good exercise for bowing those string crossings, and it won't hurt you in the long run, so have at it. I'd recommend finding another fiddler to pester in person, though. It's just so much easier to figure things out when you can hear and see them in person. Watching someone play will answer questions you don't even know you have....
Enjoy your time in the soundproof room--the process of *learning* is part of what makes playing music so much fun.
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Tove,
Let me add to Will's excellent advice. You don't barre on the fiddle like you do on the guitar. Stay on your finger tip and dont lay the finger down like you would on guitar. It may help to think there is a string between the E and A. Put your finger on this imaginary string and the "sides" of your finger tip will be noting the A and E similtaneously.
Again - Dont lay down the fingers. If fiddling is like a track race, barring is like laying down on your stomach!
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
I thank you both so much! Joe, that's a wonderful way to describe the fingering, I was able to do it right away. And Will, you sorted the entire thing out for me, and let me know that I wasn't coming up with some weird technique that would mess me up later.
Now, to find a fiddler I can pester in person, in the Blue Mountains of Australia . . .
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
You'll be amazed--no doubt there are well-camouflaged fiddlers already lurking within earshot of you. A friend of mine was once hired to play for a wedding reception on a ranch in the middle of nowhere Montana. They asked him to play mostly Irish and Scottish tunes. After an hour or so of fiddling away, some gent came up to him and complimented him on the tunes, and then said, "I play a little myself, mind if I give it a try?"
The gent was Alasdair Fraser, in town for his neice's betrothal.... My friend still blushes when he tells this story, heh.
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Tove - a good practice for this technique is to play a scale on the A string while noting both the E and A
1) Play an A scale on the A string - 1st finger B, 2nd finger C#, 3rd finger D.
2) Bow both the A and E strings during the scale.
3) Use the "barring" technique so that you produce these notes on the E string: F#, G#, A.
These are "parallel fifths." This technique is used quite a bit in Swing and jazz fiddling. It is a little jarring to listen to the first time and I have never heard it used in Irish style fiddling, but its a good exercise.
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
If you've got fairly thick fingers a bar across the strings on the fiddle is easy, but the downside is that if your fingers are that size playing a c# and d next to each other on the A string can be a tricky proposition for tuning that semitone interval accurately, otherwise the c# is too flat or the d too sharp. The only way I can do it is to move one finger out of the way pdq, or sometimes to stretch the 2nd finger from the c# up to the d, or to shift up a position and use the 1st and 2nd fingers instead, but whether either of these two latter options is feasible depends on the structure of the tune at that point. If it's any consolation, some of the world's top concert violinists have the same problem in the first position and have to use the pdq solution. Anyway, in classical music this lack of space problem on the finger-board affects every player in the higher positions: they just practice and learn to live with it.
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Thanks to all for the help!
Will, I'll be on the lookout for a fiddler in the area. I've been here for two years, and have been so occupied with settling in and getting my business (I make jewelry) up and running that I haven't really had a chance to look around.
Joe, thanks for the exercise, it's a good one. In fact, that's going to be more useful to me than anything I've run across so far with the books (music books can be rather sparse in Australia, and importing them from the US is horrifically costly with the exchange rate and shipping, not worth it, usually). And after years of having to jingle away at Czerny and similar horrors on the piano, very little strikes me as jarring, though I do what I can to spare the neighbors my fiddling practice.
Trevor, yep, we're both in the thick fingered club. I have what pianists call "sledgehammer hands" - broad hands, short and thick fingers. I'd noticed the problems with intonation on half steps, particularly the ones you mentioned, and am glad to know that it's not just me. I'll try the things you suggested to get round it, because I'm working hard on getting intonation correct and consistent early on. I swore when taking up the fiddle that I would not get into the rigid mindset that was the norm when I began piano lessons thirty-odd years ago, when teachers insisted that everyone use the exact same hand/finger positions, fingerings, etc. If you didn't have an "average" hand, this ended up crippling your technique, and restricting your ability to progress -- it certainly did in my case. Things are much more relaxed now regarding music tuition, as most music teachers seem to have learned that what works for a long fingered, narrow fingered hand will not work for a short fingered, thick fingered hand (it would seem obvious, but back then, you were supposed to somehow force your body into the "standard", no matter how much it hurt, how difficult it was, and how much more easily you could do things another way). So it's good to know about these various ways around a problem. Thanks!
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Tove, thick fingers are what you get for playing the cello since childhood - what's your excuse? Seriously though, I've been told on numerous occasions that square or broad hands are best for most instruments - the stretch for the piano or the cello comes more from the width of the hand than the length of the fingers, and such a hand naturally tends to be more muscular and stronger. A piano teacher told me once that she viewed with misgivings any beginner with narrow hands and long thin fingers. much for this reason. The shorter thicker fingers and broad hand are desirable for the cello because of the higher level of strength required compared with the fiddle. I don't think it matters much for the fiddle because of the comparatively low level of power involved in fingering and bowing.
Tove, I've tracked down an interview given by the world famous violinist Riggiero Ricci in vol 5 of the book series "The Way They Play" by Samuel Applebaum and Henry Roth, 1978 (and probably no longer in print).
Three extracts:
[Interviewer] Could we talk on problems of intonation? What about the difficulties in playing rapid half-tone passages?
[Ricci] Do you know what the chief problem is in this? Simple. It's a matter of getting the fingers out of each other's way, especially in high positions.
[Interviewer] What are the general faults of string players?
[Ricci] First - sloppy execution; not taking sufficient care. Too much willingness to "settle for less". Secondly - intonation, intonation and intonation!
[Interviewer] Will you go into the subject of tonal sonority?
[Ricci] ... the ideal sound is one that is predicated on producing and projecting resonance, not one that is produced through rough, heavy bow pressure ...
There's a lot more good stuff in the book, not only from Ricci but from other players. If you can get hold of the series, possibly in a library, they are a veritable goldmine of information about playing stringed instruments by the greatest players in the world. Alas, I have only two of the multi-volume series.
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Trevor, I'm afraid my thick fingers are simply the fault of heredity, made moreso by years of playing fretted instruments (guitar, banjo, dulcimer). I'm also just big boned, stand six feet tall, and the bones in my fingers are just broad and then the hands are muscular -- well, you get the picture. I often have to use alternate fingerings for guitar, as my fingers just won't fit on the strings in the standard fingerings. I usually work out a way.
Yes, the broad, short fingered hand is actually preferred for piano, but I was unfortunate to end up with a teacher who had a narrow, small, delicate, long fingered hand. She'd been intensely trained in the legato "singing tone" method popular in the early part of the 20th century, and tended to teach an organ-style fingering to maintain legato lines, rather than using the pedal much. This is great if you have a nice, loose, elastic hand with long fingers, it is torment if you have a muscular sledgehammer for a hand! And in the 1970s, the philosophy was that you had to just practice until you got it "right", sort of like the attitude that applied toward ballet dancers at the same time -- rather than adapt to your particular body, you were supposed to adapt your body to a certain technique. Not a good thing.
I really appreciate the quotes you searched out, and will certainly try to get that book. I would love to read it. And the quotes absolutely reinforced what I've always considered the most important part of music -- intonation! I just go insane when someone is blithely playing away with a string on their instrument almost a half tone sharp or flat, and they don't seem to hear it. I want to snatch it from them and tune for them. Of course, I don't do this, but I sure want to! With an instrument like the violin or cello, poor intonation is pure torture. And I consider taking care to be the most important part of practicing or playing, but Ricci is right -- many people just don't do it. I used to teach piano myself, and I always emphasized to students that the worst thing they could do was to repeat and practice mistakes, that slow and steady was the best way to approach learning any musical technique by making sure that you played it correctly each time, but alas, most of them thought that playing faster was better, and would drum errors into their heads to the point where it would have been impossible to correct them. Needless to say, I gave up on teaching after a few years of hearing Bach's Minuet in G Major played as if it was the frug, no matter how much I tried to get them to understand that we needed to hear the melody and counterpoint, blah blah. The answer would always be "but listen how FAST I can play it!" Sheesh!
So I'm fiddling away slowly, trying to get that intonation right, knowing that faster is not always better. Playing the fiddle is a long cherished and many-times-frustrated dream of mine, so I appreciate all input and help so very much.
fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
A bit of background. I have recently begun playing fiddle, and am bungling along on my own. So far I've been delighted at how quickly I've moved along -- but The Devil's Dream, a tune I'm working on, has me flummoxed.
The tab I have for this tune requires me to use the first finger on the E string, followed instantaneously by a first finger on the A string, then the third finger on the A string, and then immediately again by a first finger on the E string. That would be fine if I were playing a pavane, but this tune moves right along. I have good manual dexterity (play many other instruments, I like to learn new ones to keep myself humble), but I just don't see how this is going to work, short of me devoting the second half of my life to working toward playing this doggone tune up to tempo!
Is it acceptable for me to bar the E and A strings with the first finger at the first finger position, as one would bar strings on a guitar? Is this done in fiddling? I've tried it, and it works -- I'm able to play those first finger notes, flick down the third finger to play that D on the A string when I need it, and keep up to tempo. Otherwise, I'll have to play this critter reeeeeeaaally slowly. I'm tempted to just switch to another key that would result in easier fingering, but I can't just run from key to key all the time to get out of sticky situations.
So is what I'm suggesting something that is done, or am I really in outer space here? Or should I go with the notion of "well, it sounds good, it works well, so go for it"?
If I've really come up with something weird here, please be kind. I'm sorta bungling around in the dark fiddlewise!
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Tove
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Tove, the easy answer is quit playing Devil's Dream! Nobody likes the tune anyway, and if you play it at the average session you won't have to worry about your fingers not working properly ever again...someone will see to that for you.
Sorry...seriously now, yes, you should "bar" the A and E strings with the index finger to get that passage. It's quite common in fiddling to do this (see also the first half of Drowsy Maggie for another common example).
The basic rule of thumb on fiddle (and most stringed instruments) when playing uptempo is to leave any fingers down as you put them down as long as you don't need to lift them. This minimizes excess motion, allowing your hand to relax. When you're doing this sort of one-finger doublestop (holding the B and f notes on the A and E strings at the same time), you may have to experiment a bit with finger placement, angle to the strings, perhaps even rocking it slightly, to get both notes cleanly.
Good luck,
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Thanks Will! Fear not, I shan't inflict The Devil's Dream on any sessions, my fiddling will be restricted to my closed room with the window unit running for a long time. My father, a longtime folk music collector and performer, used to play a great version of it on the banjo, and I always had a letch to play it on the fiddle -- which, ironically enough, my father talked me out of trying to play for years. It's just one of those things I want to do.
I had noticed that the same technique would work in Drowsy Maggie, and I'm glad to know that I'm on the right track. I don't want to end up in the situation I did when I tried to teach myself to play the piano for four years as a kid, and progressed right up to playing Bach two part inventions, with all the fingering technique of Chico Marx. It took another four years just to sort out all the disastrous fingerings I'd learned. Unlearning is a lot harder than learning -- and no books that I have available to me mentioned doublestop technique at all -- infact, I gave up on the books two weeks ago, after a week of using them, and struck out on my own!
Okay, back to my soundproofed room, and more fearsome scrapings!
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Tove
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Well, the Dream is a good exercise for bowing those string crossings, and it won't hurt you in the long run, so have at it. I'd recommend finding another fiddler to pester in person, though. It's just so much easier to figure things out when you can hear and see them in person. Watching someone play will answer questions you don't even know you have....
Enjoy your time in the soundproof room--the process of *learning* is part of what makes playing music so much fun.
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Tove,
Let me add to Will's excellent advice. You don't barre on the fiddle like you do on the guitar. Stay on your finger tip and dont lay the finger down like you would on guitar. It may help to think there is a string between the E and A. Put your finger on this imaginary string and the "sides" of your finger tip will be noting the A and E similtaneously.
Again - Dont lay down the fingers. If fiddling is like a track race, barring is like laying down on your stomach!
Joe
# Posted on February 13th 2003 by Carrmuse
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
...and leave it to me to forget that most important perspective on the whole thing.....
Good catch Joe!
# Posted on February 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
I thank you both so much! Joe, that's a wonderful way to describe the fingering, I was able to do it right away. And Will, you sorted the entire thing out for me, and let me know that I wasn't coming up with some weird technique that would mess me up later.
Now, to find a fiddler I can pester in person, in the Blue Mountains of Australia . . .
# Posted on February 13th 2003 by Tove
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
You'll be amazed--no doubt there are well-camouflaged fiddlers already lurking within earshot of you. A friend of mine was once hired to play for a wedding reception on a ranch in the middle of nowhere Montana. They asked him to play mostly Irish and Scottish tunes. After an hour or so of fiddling away, some gent came up to him and complimented him on the tunes, and then said, "I play a little myself, mind if I give it a try?"
The gent was Alasdair Fraser, in town for his neice's betrothal.... My friend still blushes when he tells this story, heh.
# Posted on February 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Tove - a good practice for this technique is to play a scale on the A string while noting both the E and A
1) Play an A scale on the A string - 1st finger B, 2nd finger C#, 3rd finger D.
2) Bow both the A and E strings during the scale.
3) Use the "barring" technique so that you produce these notes on the E string: F#, G#, A.
These are "parallel fifths." This technique is used quite a bit in Swing and jazz fiddling. It is a little jarring to listen to the first time and I have never heard it used in Irish style fiddling, but its a good exercise.
Joe
# Posted on February 13th 2003 by Carrmuse
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
If you've got fairly thick fingers a bar across the strings on the fiddle is easy, but the downside is that if your fingers are that size playing a c# and d next to each other on the A string can be a tricky proposition for tuning that semitone interval accurately, otherwise the c# is too flat or the d too sharp. The only way I can do it is to move one finger out of the way pdq, or sometimes to stretch the 2nd finger from the c# up to the d, or to shift up a position and use the 1st and 2nd fingers instead, but whether either of these two latter options is feasible depends on the structure of the tune at that point. If it's any consolation, some of the world's top concert violinists have the same problem in the first position and have to use the pdq solution. Anyway, in classical music this lack of space problem on the finger-board affects every player in the higher positions: they just practice and learn to live with it.
# Posted on February 13th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Thanks to all for the help!
Will, I'll be on the lookout for a fiddler in the area. I've been here for two years, and have been so occupied with settling in and getting my business (I make jewelry) up and running that I haven't really had a chance to look around.
Joe, thanks for the exercise, it's a good one. In fact, that's going to be more useful to me than anything I've run across so far with the books (music books can be rather sparse in Australia, and importing them from the US is horrifically costly with the exchange rate and shipping, not worth it, usually). And after years of having to jingle away at Czerny and similar horrors on the piano, very little strikes me as jarring, though I do what I can to spare the neighbors my fiddling practice.
Trevor, yep, we're both in the thick fingered club. I have what pianists call "sledgehammer hands" - broad hands, short and thick fingers. I'd noticed the problems with intonation on half steps, particularly the ones you mentioned, and am glad to know that it's not just me. I'll try the things you suggested to get round it, because I'm working hard on getting intonation correct and consistent early on. I swore when taking up the fiddle that I would not get into the rigid mindset that was the norm when I began piano lessons thirty-odd years ago, when teachers insisted that everyone use the exact same hand/finger positions, fingerings, etc. If you didn't have an "average" hand, this ended up crippling your technique, and restricting your ability to progress -- it certainly did in my case. Things are much more relaxed now regarding music tuition, as most music teachers seem to have learned that what works for a long fingered, narrow fingered hand will not work for a short fingered, thick fingered hand (it would seem obvious, but back then, you were supposed to somehow force your body into the "standard", no matter how much it hurt, how difficult it was, and how much more easily you could do things another way). So it's good to know about these various ways around a problem. Thanks!
# Posted on February 14th 2003 by Tove
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Tove, thick fingers are what you get for playing the cello since childhood - what's your excuse?
Seriously though, I've been told on numerous occasions that square or broad hands are best for most instruments - the stretch for the piano or the cello comes more from the width of the hand than the length of the fingers, and such a hand naturally tends to be more muscular and stronger. A piano teacher told me once that she viewed with misgivings any beginner with narrow hands and long thin fingers. much for this reason. The shorter thicker fingers and broad hand are desirable for the cello because of the higher level of strength required compared with the fiddle. I don't think it matters much for the fiddle because of the comparatively low level of power involved in fingering and bowing.
# Posted on February 15th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Tove, I've tracked down an interview given by the world famous violinist Riggiero Ricci in vol 5 of the book series "The Way They Play" by Samuel Applebaum and Henry Roth, 1978 (and probably no longer in print).
Three extracts:
[Interviewer] Could we talk on problems of intonation? What about the difficulties in playing rapid half-tone passages?
[Ricci] Do you know what the chief problem is in this? Simple. It's a matter of getting the fingers out of each other's way, especially in high positions.
[Interviewer] What are the general faults of string players?
[Ricci] First - sloppy execution; not taking sufficient care. Too much willingness to "settle for less". Secondly - intonation, intonation and intonation!
[Interviewer] Will you go into the subject of tonal sonority?
[Ricci] ... the ideal sound is one that is predicated on producing and projecting resonance, not one that is produced through rough, heavy bow pressure ...
There's a lot more good stuff in the book, not only from Ricci but from other players. If you can get hold of the series, possibly in a library, they are a veritable goldmine of information about playing stringed instruments by the greatest players in the world. Alas, I have only two of the multi-volume series.
# Posted on February 15th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
Trevor, I'm afraid my thick fingers are simply the fault of heredity, made moreso by years of playing fretted instruments (guitar, banjo, dulcimer). I'm also just big boned, stand six feet tall, and the bones in my fingers are just broad and then the hands are muscular -- well, you get the picture. I often have to use alternate fingerings for guitar, as my fingers just won't fit on the strings in the standard fingerings. I usually work out a way.
Yes, the broad, short fingered hand is actually preferred for piano, but I was unfortunate to end up with a teacher who had a narrow, small, delicate, long fingered hand. She'd been intensely trained in the legato "singing tone" method popular in the early part of the 20th century, and tended to teach an organ-style fingering to maintain legato lines, rather than using the pedal much. This is great if you have a nice, loose, elastic hand with long fingers, it is torment if you have a muscular sledgehammer for a hand! And in the 1970s, the philosophy was that you had to just practice until you got it "right", sort of like the attitude that applied toward ballet dancers at the same time -- rather than adapt to your particular body, you were supposed to adapt your body to a certain technique. Not a good thing.
I really appreciate the quotes you searched out, and will certainly try to get that book. I would love to read it. And the quotes absolutely reinforced what I've always considered the most important part of music -- intonation! I just go insane when someone is blithely playing away with a string on their instrument almost a half tone sharp or flat, and they don't seem to hear it. I want to snatch it from them and tune for them. Of course, I don't do this, but I sure want to! With an instrument like the violin or cello, poor intonation is pure torture. And I consider taking care to be the most important part of practicing or playing, but Ricci is right -- many people just don't do it. I used to teach piano myself, and I always emphasized to students that the worst thing they could do was to repeat and practice mistakes, that slow and steady was the best way to approach learning any musical technique by making sure that you played it correctly each time, but alas, most of them thought that playing faster was better, and would drum errors into their heads to the point where it would have been impossible to correct them. Needless to say, I gave up on teaching after a few years of hearing Bach's Minuet in G Major played as if it was the frug, no matter how much I tried to get them to understand that we needed to hear the melody and counterpoint, blah blah. The answer would always be "but listen how FAST I can play it!" Sheesh!
So I'm fiddling away slowly, trying to get that intonation right, knowing that faster is not always better. Playing the fiddle is a long cherished and many-times-frustrated dream of mine, so I appreciate all input and help so very much.
# Posted on February 15th 2003 by Tove
Re: fiddle fingering question from the compleat idiot
It's always worth remembering, and it's not often pointed out, that good intonation and good tone quality go hand in hand.
# Posted on February 16th 2003 by Trevor Jennings