I'm sitting here listening to The Bothy Band with Tommy Peoples and am admiring his lovely crunchy triplets and I've come to the conclusion that he must be using bass rosin or something to get that effect. Is this true? Do you use lots of sticky rosin to get that grit in the triplet, or is merely technique? If it is the rosin, what kind do you use?
triplets have nothing to do with rosin. although i myself prefer a stickier rosin, you should still be able to do triplets after not having rosined for a few days, ya know? it's the technique in your wrist and fingers that does the trick. some people have crunchy triplets and others have smoother triplets, and this all depends on the type of wrist movement that they have.
i live in boston and tommy peoples frequents sessions and house parties around here and i get a lot of chances to play with him and see him play. actually, he executes his triplets by flicking his right pinkie finger against the bow stick at exactly the right moment. it's very odd - he's the only one i've ever seen do that particular maneuver. but hey, he's the best, so you can't really argue technique with that!
I dont believe it has nothing to with roisin. I find darker heavier roisin helps you get a crunchier triplet sound as well as technique. I've heard that about tommy peoples pinkie though - very tricky.
Cara, exactly how does his pinky strike the stick? I've heard about his technique before, but I've never seen it in action (not that I'm likely to try it either--just curious).
Troy, you can make your average (non-Peoples) triplet crunchier just by weighting the hair--pressing it into the string--during the triplet. Can be a nice effect, but clear, 3-distinct-note triplets are also nice. And I agree with Bridie--a stickier rosin makes it easier to get crunchy triplets--if you want crunchy like peanut brittle, try bass rosin sometime (and then spend an hour cleaning it out of your bow hair).
Do a search for "bowed triplets" to read all our previous threads on this topic.
To me it sounds like Tommy must be using bass rosin or something because it sounds like his bow almost doesn't want to let go of the strings. Especially on his triplets. To get that kind of grit, just by pressing harder for a fraction of a second during the triplet would take a lot of bow control. I'm not saying its not possible, I just don't think I personally would be able to pull it off. Especially if the triplet is done with the little flick of the wrist which requires a loose wrist, while pressing down for a fraction of a second for the effect would require a little more tension in the wrist to control the bow. Maybe its the pinky thing.
I'll have to get some bass rosin just to try it. I've looked at it and was surprised to see that the rosin has to be stored upright or it will "flow" out of the container. Yikes!
I wonder if a heavier bow (e.g. viola) would help.
Also, I met a fiddler the other week with a black-haired bow. I was curious about this, and after we swapped a few jokes about the preferred make of boot polish I reckoned he was using for rosin, he explained he'd recently had the bow rehaired with double bass horse hair (very coarse stuff) and said it gave a much crunchier overall sound, and he didn't have to use so much pressure (a significant point I suspect). He also said it took a good fortnight to get used to this much coarser hair. I think he said he was using standard fiddle rosin.
I have two types of rosin, one for the violin and the other for the cello. I long ago got completely confused about which was which and so now I use whichever one I pick up first for either my fiddle or cello. I can't honestly say I notice any difference, but then I only apply a couple of swipes of rosin about once every four or five days. I find an excess of rosin tends to make the bow feel slower on the string (whichever instrument I'm playing), and accretions of the stuff on the string affect the tone. I think you only need enough rosin to stop the hair from "skating" on the string.
Nah, with a strong arm you don't need rosin at all. I've seen a fiddler in West Clare soaping up his bow, to get it to play faster! Another guy in Oswego playing with the wooden side of the bow.
You gotta be careful, put too much rosin, and your triplets start coming out with 4 or 5 notes.
LOL Glauber, I saw your comments on the discussion list and wondered what eejit was weighing in about soap and sticks!
Troy, it really is possible to weight the bow through the triplets just to add crunch and swoop back out of it to a lighter touch. More to the point, however, I would suggest that you just don't worry about it. Your triplets will end up sounding like Troy's triplets, no matter how hard you work to make them sound like Mr. Peoples', and that's okay, even wonderful in its own right (once you get over the disappointment .
I think it's far better to focus on clean, crisp triplets, and finding a sense of timing and placement with them that makes people want to dance, than worrying about what they sound like compared to this or that fiddler's triplets.
Also, it's much less a wrist flick than a very small twitch of the index finger. The more you can refine the motion down to a minimalist sneeze of the index, supported on the thumb, the more control you will have over the triplets. The wrist and hand just need to stay relaxed and out of the way. Good luck and persevere....
I was at a workshop with Tommy a few weeks ago in Toronto (at the annual Chris Langen weekend) , as as Will noted, it does seem to be partially initated by the index finger...Tommy People's index finger actually flies up quite noticeably every time he executed one of those lovely crunchy triplets. I don't think it's the use of bass rosin that allows him to do it either----he was at a session and borrrowed someone's fiddle to play some tunes (no bass rosin on that guy's bow) and his triplets were as crunchy as ever. It was a great weekend! --aoife
Just to be clear, the bass rosin idea is just sort of a fun experiment, but I wouldn't recommend it as a standard route to crunchy triplets. If you want that "tkch" sound, you just have to spend a decade or two reducing all the extra motion in your arm, wrist, and hand down to a sub-molecular sneeze in your index finger and try different amounts of hair pressure till you get the degree of crunch you want. Best to have a range available to express a wider range of musical feelings.
Thanks all. I'll work on the sub-molecular sneeze and avoid the gooey bass rosin for the time being. I'm not sure I want to try to get the stuff off my bow afterwards. It sounds like the stuff is so sticky you might have a tough time removing your bow hairs from anything it comes in contact with.
I don't know about crunchy triplets but a fiddler advised me to use cello rosin to get a better sound out of a cheap fiddle and it does seem to help. But too much cello roisin is more of a problem than too much fiddle rosin
I'm classically trained (unfortunately?). Although my technique is good - I cannot handle consistently bowed triplets especially fast ones, and I don't know why. Rolls and all the rest no problem. The problem seems to be that when I try to do a triplet, I relax my wrist, but also relax the pressure on the string. Any tips?
Would this be a good place to ask if anybody has experience with Andrea (formerly Tartini) rosin for ITM playing? It's recommended for the Incredibows and I'm very curious as to what special proberties it has.
Triplets and Rosin
Triplets and Rosin
I'm sitting here listening to The Bothy Band with Tommy Peoples and am admiring his lovely crunchy triplets and I've come to the conclusion that he must be using bass rosin or something to get that effect. Is this true? Do you use lots of sticky rosin to get that grit in the triplet, or is merely technique? If it is the rosin, what kind do you use?
-Troy
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by RTP
Re: Triplets and Rosin
triplets have nothing to do with rosin. although i myself prefer a stickier rosin, you should still be able to do triplets after not having rosined for a few days, ya know? it's the technique in your wrist and fingers that does the trick. some people have crunchy triplets and others have smoother triplets, and this all depends on the type of wrist movement that they have.
i live in boston and tommy peoples frequents sessions and house parties around here and i get a lot of chances to play with him and see him play. actually, he executes his triplets by flicking his right pinkie finger against the bow stick at exactly the right moment. it's very odd - he's the only one i've ever seen do that particular maneuver. but hey, he's the best, so you can't really argue technique with that!
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by carafiddle
Re: Triplets and Rosin
I dont believe it has nothing to with roisin. I find darker heavier roisin helps you get a crunchier triplet sound as well as technique. I've heard that about tommy peoples pinkie though - very tricky.
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by bb
Re: Triplets and Rosin
Cara, exactly how does his pinky strike the stick? I've heard about his technique before, but I've never seen it in action (not that I'm likely to try it either--just curious).
Troy, you can make your average (non-Peoples) triplet crunchier just by weighting the hair--pressing it into the string--during the triplet. Can be a nice effect, but clear, 3-distinct-note triplets are also nice. And I agree with Bridie--a stickier rosin makes it easier to get crunchy triplets--if you want crunchy like peanut brittle, try bass rosin sometime (and then spend an hour cleaning it out of your bow hair).
Do a search for "bowed triplets" to read all our previous threads on this topic.
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Triplets and Rosin
To me it sounds like Tommy must be using bass rosin or something because it sounds like his bow almost doesn't want to let go of the strings. Especially on his triplets. To get that kind of grit, just by pressing harder for a fraction of a second during the triplet would take a lot of bow control. I'm not saying its not possible, I just don't think I personally would be able to pull it off. Especially if the triplet is done with the little flick of the wrist which requires a loose wrist, while pressing down for a fraction of a second for the effect would require a little more tension in the wrist to control the bow. Maybe its the pinky thing.
I'll have to get some bass rosin just to try it. I've looked at it and was surprised to see that the rosin has to be stored upright or it will "flow" out of the container. Yikes!
-Troy
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by RTP
Re: Triplets and Rosin
I wonder if a heavier bow (e.g. viola) would help.
Also, I met a fiddler the other week with a black-haired bow. I was curious about this, and after we swapped a few jokes about the preferred make of boot polish I reckoned he was using for rosin, he explained he'd recently had the bow rehaired with double bass horse hair (very coarse stuff) and said it gave a much crunchier overall sound, and he didn't have to use so much pressure (a significant point I suspect). He also said it took a good fortnight to get used to this much coarser hair. I think he said he was using standard fiddle rosin.
I have two types of rosin, one for the violin and the other for the cello. I long ago got completely confused about which was which and so now I use whichever one I pick up first for either my fiddle or cello. I can't honestly say I notice any difference, but then I only apply a couple of swipes of rosin about once every four or five days. I find an excess of rosin tends to make the bow feel slower on the string (whichever instrument I'm playing), and accretions of the stuff on the string affect the tone. I think you only need enough rosin to stop the hair from "skating" on the string.
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Triplets and Rosin
Nah, with a strong arm you don't need rosin at all. I've seen a fiddler in West Clare soaping up his bow, to get it to play faster! Another guy in Oswego playing with the wooden side of the bow.
You gotta be careful, put too much rosin, and your triplets start coming out with 4 or 5 notes.
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by glauber
Re: Triplets and Rosin
LOL Glauber, I saw your comments on the discussion list and wondered what eejit was weighing in about soap and sticks!
.
Troy, it really is possible to weight the bow through the triplets just to add crunch and swoop back out of it to a lighter touch. More to the point, however, I would suggest that you just don't worry about it. Your triplets will end up sounding like Troy's triplets, no matter how hard you work to make them sound like Mr. Peoples', and that's okay, even wonderful in its own right (once you get over the disappointment
I think it's far better to focus on clean, crisp triplets, and finding a sense of timing and placement with them that makes people want to dance, than worrying about what they sound like compared to this or that fiddler's triplets.
Also, it's much less a wrist flick than a very small twitch of the index finger. The more you can refine the motion down to a minimalist sneeze of the index, supported on the thumb, the more control you will have over the triplets. The wrist and hand just need to stay relaxed and out of the way. Good luck and persevere....
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Triplets and Rosin
I was at a workshop with Tommy a few weeks ago in Toronto (at the annual Chris Langen weekend) , as as Will noted, it does seem to be partially initated by the index finger...Tommy People's index finger actually flies up quite noticeably every time he executed one of those lovely crunchy triplets. I don't think it's the use of bass rosin that allows him to do it either----he was at a session and borrrowed someone's fiddle to play some tunes (no bass rosin on that guy's bow) and his triplets were as crunchy as ever. It was a great weekend! --aoife
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by aoife
Re: Triplets and Rosin
Just to be clear, the bass rosin idea is just sort of a fun experiment, but I wouldn't recommend it as a standard route to crunchy triplets. If you want that "tkch" sound, you just have to spend a decade or two reducing all the extra motion in your arm, wrist, and hand down to a sub-molecular sneeze in your index finger and try different amounts of hair pressure till you get the degree of crunch you want. Best to have a range available to express a wider range of musical feelings.
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Triplets and Rosin
Thanks all. I'll work on the sub-molecular sneeze and avoid the gooey bass rosin for the time being. I'm not sure I want to try to get the stuff off my bow afterwards. It sounds like the stuff is so sticky you might have a tough time removing your bow hairs from anything it comes in contact with.
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by RTP
Re: Triplets and Rosin
(LOL...visions of a fiddler stumbling away from the session dragging a bow behind him like toilet paper stuck to his cuffs)
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Triplets and Rosin
I don't know about crunchy triplets but a fiddler advised me to use cello rosin to get a better sound out of a cheap fiddle and it does seem to help. But too much cello roisin is more of a problem than too much fiddle rosin
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by stewardy
Re: Triplets and Rosin
Peoples has a gimmick. Its called being really good. I have tried this gimmick but it never has worked for me. More practice!
Joe
# Posted on February 13th 2003 by Carrmuse
Re: Triplets and Rosin
Carrmuse, what you just said reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes
# Posted on February 14th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Triplets and Rosin
I'm classically trained (unfortunately?). Although my technique is good - I cannot handle consistently bowed triplets especially fast ones, and I don't know why. Rolls and all the rest no problem. The problem seems to be that when I try to do a triplet, I relax my wrist, but also relax the pressure on the string. Any tips?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by hoopoe
Re: Triplets and Rosin
Would this be a good place to ask if anybody has experience with Andrea (formerly Tartini) rosin for ITM playing? It's recommended for the Incredibows and I'm very curious as to what special proberties it has.
# Posted on March 15th 2007 by Bob himself