I recently started a thread announcing my uploading of a torrent featuring the fiddle playing of Mrs Galvin. I was happy to share recordings of her music via the peer-to-peer system because these are out of copyright (having been recorded by RTÉ in the early 1950s).
However, as anyone who has looked for ITM recordings via the various torrent search engines well knows, there's a real dearth of material available.
My quandary is this. I have a host of ITM recordings which I'd like to share. I'm not talking about readily available music, but recordings by labels which are long defunct or which were originally released as vinyl albums by companies which appear to have no interest in reissuing said recordings in CD format.
Let me give an example in explanation. I have a copy of the John Doherty LP 'Johnny Doherty', released by CCÉ in 1974. Legally, CCÉ holds the copyright to this. I've transferred the album's 16 tracks to CD and could make them available to others via PtP as MP3 files. However, I'd be infringing upon CCÉ's copyright in doing so and would also be concerned that I'd be denying John's descendants any income as a result of the process (that is, of course, if they're entitled to anything - it all depends upon the nature of the contract which John signed). I could approach CCÉ to seek permission, but, frankly, from previous experience, I don't reckon there's anyone at the Monkstown HQ who would be less than thoroughly confused by my request.
I'd be very interested in others' views. Should I bow to the copyright laws and basically do nothing or would it be better just to plough ahead and share the music I have with others?
I should add that I have no commercial interests - in other words, I'm not seeking to profit financially by making this music available.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Ive given this same thing some thought as well. I think the benefit to countless players around the world of having this music outweighs any financial considerations, and im sure if Johnny were alive (and knew what a torrent or p2p was) he'd feel the same way. Ive downloaded many out of print cd's from soulseek or bittorrents (not so much torrents these days) but I will still readily buy the actual cd if I find it available anywhere.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Think about it this way. If I download something and I really like it, and I can buy it I will. But if I never get a chance to listen to it first I'm not going to buy it.
I'm not sure how many people do it that way but I think it's more then most people might think.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
If you cannot get it anywhere else, mates and p2p are the only option. I do not think anyone is going to sue you over recordings that are not on release as if the companies were losing money they would release them. Many recordings have not been rereleased with the artists still alive and many of the artists needing money. It may be illegal but I cannot see the harm. If we cannot listen to the music the artist cannot be better known; if the artist is better known then the record companies may find it viable to rerelease pleasing everyone.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
You definitely should not.
Imagine that you're the artist with an out-of-print or hard-to-obtain recording. You might or might not object to people copying and distributing the recording, but you'd almost certainly object to someone else making that decision for you.
Any pragmatic arguments ("better for people to hear it than for it to languish in obscurity", "in the long run it will make money for the artist", etc.) miss the point. The music belongs to the copyright holder, and it isn't your place to make decisions about it.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
If the players have gone to the Big Session in the Sky, I have no problem obtaining copies of their work. It's bit trickier if they're still breathing, particularly if their work is out of print, and they cannot financially benefit (though they ought to). In times past, you paid the fiddler a penny for his time and tunes. Should a miser sitting on a pile of gold (in this case, recordings languishing in the vault) and choosing to not make them available to the masses deserve the same consideration as the fiddler who makes his pennies by playing?
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
That's a nice (house/car/yard/bank-account) you have there, drone. How about letting the masses have some access?
But seriously,
The set of things that are legal does not always equal the set of things that are ethical, and a few copyright holders have been known to do things that are <a href="http://www.tradmusic.com/newspage.asp?newsID=364">neither</a>;. The person with the biggest legal fund shouldn't always be the one in the right.
Legally, I think you're somewhere between "explicitly disallowed from sharing this record with anybody", and "disallowed, but nobody will make an issue of it". CCE themselves seems to be licensing all their own videos under Creative Commons licenses these days (which encourages sharing, while maintaining profit rights), suggesting that somebody there has something of a clue.
Ethically, you may have to decide for yourself whether it's better to share this music with those who would want to hear it and learn from it (as the performers would probably have wanted), or to respect the right (and assume the good judgement) of the copyright holder to make that decision themselves. As I'm sure we're all aware, not all things t
For me, when it comes to this sort of music I ask myself "If a fellow musician asked me to burn a CD of that record for their own personal use, would I do it for them?". In these cases, my own answer is most often "sure", but that often has qualifications. I'd feel much less certain about copying a readily available solo recording from an impoverished and currently touring musician than I would about copying one of the Bothy Band albums that Green Linnet infamously used to rake their musicians (our musical friends and heroes) over the coals. It's very easy to get socratic and pull apart any argument that comes down strongly on either side, but if you're really looking to do the right ethical thing here, it's probably not a bad idea to call the copyright holder(s) and have a little conversation. If nothing else you might come out of it with a clearer sense of what the right thing to do might be.
For the record, there does seem to be an increasing body of evidence that suggests (to some people) that file copying encourages, rather than discourages, record sales... But this still seems to be hotly debated, mainly between the people that want files for free and people that want to charge money for files. The rest of us are just as confused as to the right thing to do as you are.
In the end, I'm really liking the Creative Commons Licenses for this sort of thing. It makes life so much easier.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Geoff - don't go near it. Legally it's a veritable minefield in which you have absolutely no rights in regard to the material in question. Give the CCE a ring and ask for a postal adress for someone who deals with their copyright, then send a letter explaining precisely what you intend to do with the music and the financial implications for you. And maybe they'll let you release it in some way (possibly non-downloadable) or something.
I suspect, however, your best bet is to back the data up to some fairly non-corruptible source and wait for the licence to expire (in about 20 years).
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
well, now everybody has the morality issue down, and can stand upon the soapbox about it, has anyone never copied a vinyl to cassette to listen to, or made mix tapes, or shared some music in the hopes that someone would be interested enough to buy it?
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Listen to Andy. Please, listen to Andy.
I am a court reporter. I've reported legal proceedings for these and similar issues. People DO most certainly get sued for this kind of thing, and they wind up paying large settlements plus whatever other humiliating consequences are theirs to face for pretty much forever.
If the composers are alive, find them, express your admiration and good intentions, and see what you can work with them in a written agreement. Pay money to have a professional find them if you just can't. And if they say no, be a sport.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
my understanding of US copyright law is that educational purposes is fair use and does not require a release from the owner ofthe copyright, if it is within reason. So if you are shairng it so that people can sit at home listen and have a pint, you're out of luck. But if you are sending a tune to someone so that they can learn it...you might have a leg to stand on.
that beign said I'm not a lawyer, nor do i play one on tv
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Filesharing of copyrighted material is totally illegal. As to whether that constitutes immorality depends upon your perspective on the law. The law seems to involve itself in its own fair share of immoral acts. Personally I think that 'reproduction' in the world of music has created quite a different situation for musicians over the last fifty or sixty years, and not one that has been especially liberating. For some of course there have been ridiculous and entirely disproportionate profits on the backs of enormous album sales but the real beneficiaries have been the large corporations (virgin & sony to name but two), but for others it's meant being thrall to record companies who tell you what to record and etc. I'm all for dismantling such a crazy system. John Docherty, as far as I know, made his living out of going round playing, not sitting at home making albums.
IN the long history of music - especially trad music, whatever that is or has been - making money from reproduction is a relatively recent phenomena and not one which is necessarily essential or even desirable. I remember all those home "taping is killing music" stickers in the 80s. How wrong was that? It actually helped to propagate music! I doubt I'd have learnt half the music that I have it wasn't for home taping. I'd be surprised if thee had ever been a period in history when so many people were so competent at playing an instrument as there are at present in the west. This site is evidence of just how many people are involved in playing trad music, and this is only one of the many forms people are involved in. Twenty odd years ago round here - Cumbria, Lancs - hardly anyone played trad music, the standard wasn't particularly high and etc, but today there're loads of people and they're all pretty good. The easy availability of recordings made this possible. I even remember Martin Hayes talking about how he'd learnt loads of stuff from tapes.
Anyway, I'm all for torrents and filesharing of all kinds, legal or not. I think the moral question is one of recent provenance and one which is rapidly becoming obsolete. Just as recording itself cause a paradigm shift in the production and consumption of music, then so too is the internet causing another. Things will not remain as they were. The people who are really worried are those who had control - sorry to get Marxist here - of the means of re-production. Those means are now out of their hands.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
The issue of education purposes is slightly different in the UK (as both the composer, the copyright holder and Geoff are bound by "UK" copyright law - it's the same in Ireland) - basically unless you're disseminating it to your pupils it's illegal.
The issue here isn't one of morality/ethics/manners - it's simply legal. I mean that in the sense that if they catch you then you don't have a leg to stand on and the consequences could be very severe. The difference between this and copying a tape/lending a CD etc is that it's going entirely into the public domain - all it takes is for one person to report it to the torrent provider (who have to forward potential copyright infringments) and/or the copyright holder and you're (potentially) screwed.
For the length of time it'll take you to enquire to the CCE it's not worth the risk.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
so many people are torrenting so may files - most of them the latest pirates film or whatever - so the chances of getting 'caught' on a torrent of some obscure Irish music are slender to say the least! I say go for it geoff, put the lot up! The risk is minimal, the ethics confused (like all ethics), the law an ass.
In the meantime I'm seeding the marvelous Mrs Gavin and tommy and cathal ... hope "they" aren't watching!
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Ah go for it, Geoff. Publish and be damned! You know the cliche 'all it takes for evil to prosper, is for a few good men to turn their heads' or words to that effect.
And before anyone comments that I'm likening evil to a poor musician trying to make a few Euro. I'm not - this is still largely a folk tradition and the 'dog' is the large body of amateur musicians that carry the tradition. The 'tail' are the few who seek to make a living out of it and the larger media organisations. Let the dog wag the tail and not t'other way around.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Geoff.... it still belongs to someone legally probably. Most likely CCE, if you are thinking of putting up the LP as is. I would talk to them. They have a right to say no of course. Maybe you can make some deal about linking it to their sites, their events, something. I would think many there would be all for the exposure.
Where you could run into trouble... let's see. They decide they are going to sue you. Likely all they could do is make you take it down, cease and desist since you want no financial gain. Or maybe it would anger them, and I'd bet that they have some attorneys among their ranks who will take it on for free and give you a bad headache, if not legal bills to boot. Or they could do nothing, but you may have the constant worry at the back of your mind all the time, that maybe they would at a future date. Who needs sleepless nights over this?
A bigger question is do they own the original copyright to the actual 78s (I presume they were 78s) that were used, or to just their compilation project. There would be a difference. The actual 78s themselves may be expired on copyright depending on the date of release. That is an issue to look into. If you were to put up their entire album as is, track for track, you may have hell to pay. While you can copyright a project/compilation as such, it doesn't however necessarily mean they hold copyright to the original recordings, which may be the loophole you are looking for.
There are many art books for example, showing the art of one or more persons. As a visual artist myself, my work has been in quite a number of books and other projects. The publisher owns copyright to the book, the project., the compilation as such, but I have prior claim/copyright on my artwork that may have been used in it. So what this means, is just because a publisher reproduced my work in their book or compilation which they hold the copyright to, it does not mean they can sell my artwork to another third party just because it was in their project/compilation etc. I still own the rights, or if I die my heirs own it for 50 more years. If they wanted to sell my image in their book to someone else, they had better darn well contact me for permission, and if there was money involved thay had better work out a precentage to give me... most of it actually, and they could negotiate an agent's fee of sorts for themselves.
So I would bet you that CCE is not owner of the copyright on the original music but just on that project. Unless the family transferred the rights to them legally, which is possible but not likely. I would also bet somewhere in some old file is some agreement allowing them one time use of the tracks for this project. There may be issue however about uploading their actual tracks from the LP. Maybe you can find someone with copies of the original 78s they can record for you and you can put those up instead. CCE may know by a certian hiss or crackle that it was theirs, so be careful.
Maybe you can bypass them and try to find the heirs and get permission. I do know, for example, one book I did over 20 years ago, which some people still want, but not enough to warrant a reprint, if someone decided it should be out there available for all to see because it was good.... I'd be absolutely fuming if someone just put it up there, I would definitely say to get it down or threaten legal action. I am however, alive. I suspect my daughter would go after the person though. If someone contacted me and asked to put up parts of the book they thought were valuable, I might be more inclined to say, sure, just give me a link to my site.
Hope this helps. If you can find the family, I'd bypass the CCE, unless they made the actual original recordings, which I doubt.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
PS.... it's a very funny thing about human nature... they may not care about something or be ready to trash it, until someone else wants it. Then suddenly they want it or control of it again. Go figure! Be careful, keep yourself safe. You are wanting to do a good thing, but....stay safe!
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Hmm, lot's of food for thought and, just to clarify, the John Doherty LP referred to was an original album and not transferred from 78s. John Doherty did not record any 78s.
My own feeling is this.
1) Anyone using a P2P file-sharing scheme is breaking copyright unless the material being transferred (i.e. the music files being made available) is outside the copyright period. Using UK and Irish transcription law as a basis, that means it's fine for me to make available any recordings which were made more than 50 years ago. I don't think that this impinges upon the rights of others, from outside the UK and Ireland, to make copies of those files from a public domain website, as long as said files are only for personal use.
2) There are numerous Irish labels which have absolutely no intention of re-issuing their old vinyl material for various reasons - 1) the label doesn't exist any more, 2) nobody at the still extant label is aware that the material still exists, or 3) the label is aware of the material, but is not interested in reissuing it (for whatever reasons).
The point remains that all of those labels still retain copyright and I don't think any of us should be uploading torrents of their recordings without prior permission.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
It's just not a good idea to do it unless legal, you could be playing with a very unpleasant situation down the road though your intentions are the best.
I'd just ask them, offer links to their site. maybe to their membership page, offer them something for the privilege, make it seem much to their advantage which it would be. The best deals benefit everyone involved, so I'd talk to them and start with that approach. Maybe even ask them for advice as to what is best to put up, maybe they have other old LPS they would like to share. You never know, and the worst they could do is say NO!!
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Moving this discussion slightly sideways, what are the security implications for using torrents? It seems to me (as a non-user of torrents), that if a large number of people, generally not known to each other, are spending a lot of time (and presumably band-width!) in passing large files between them, then there are big opportunities awaiting for the malware (viruses, spyware, etc) to step in, unbeknown to otherwise bona fide torrent users, and create mayhem.
First, let me say that I can't speak *for* CCÉ: policy is decided by an elected committee of volunteers of which I am not a member. However, were you to send a query on this to Monkstown, it would probably land on my desk.
Anyway, I've heard most of these arguments before; I even had the privilege of hearing Prof. Lessig argue them before the US Supreme Court a few years in Eldred v. Ashcroft. These "abandoned" recordings that are still in copyright but out of print are a big issue, and one that I hope will be addressed by the courts in the coming years. I would even say that ITM in general has been boosted enormously by casual and bootleg recordings which the RIAA and any European court would consider infringing. I don't think that the courts are right on this one; I personally consider that the public domain is being squeezed out by massive content producers using ham-handed tactics to zealously enforce copyright with little regard for the long-term public good. But for now, the law is pretty clear.
Unfortunately, you aren't covered under a fair-use exemption -- any clause of the 2000 Copyright Act (as amended) would let you make exactly one copy at best, not to share it with uncountable anonymous strangers. I'd also argue against posting a torrent for practical reasons: the RIAA has been going mad lately suing everyone and their mother for distributing infringing materials. Also, as lazyhound points out, it's a vector for malware. Either way, doesn't sound like a good idea.
I'm pretty sure that I'm the only person at CCÉ who will notice were you to post the material -- and I'm not going to sue you, at least partly because I'm on your side on this one. Our main job at Comhaltas is to teach Irish music to thousands of kids every week - we're not out there trying to sue people for infringing copyright, and I'd say that we generally turn a blind eye to most people who make copies of our stuff (which is a lot of people, believe me). But I don't like the idea of breaking the law when there's a perfect legal option available.
Since you're not allowed to distribute the Doherty recording legally, and since we both think that it should be out there for people to listen to, how about this: if you send me the mp3 files, I'll post them on http://comhaltas.ie under a Creative Commons license (http://creativecommons.org), and then people can listen away to their heart's content. And of course I'll give you credit on the website for the digitisation work. Does that sound fair? I can't just put the recording into the public domain, even if I wanted to, but I can grant a Creative Commons license for certain uses, like listening and learning (but not making money), provided that attribution is given. (One problem with torrents is that the attribution bit can be extremely tricky.)
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
lazyhound--legal/ethical issues aside, I personally would not install *any* P2P software on my computer, for security reasons. Many P2P programs are full of spyware and adware. All of them create more opportunities for malware to get in, because they turn your computer into a server--other people can connect directly to your computer's file system.
Me, I'm too technically inept to safely run a server connected to the Internet, with all its dangers. I'll leave that to the professionals.
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
I don't think this is the place to get into this - but the idea that *many* p2p progs are full of spyware is a bit misleading. Some might be, but most - those named above for eg - are fine. The main problems are with what you choose to download, not the software you chose to use to download it (if utorrent was stuffed full of malware and trojans and stuff how long would it be before the community found out? ... although saying that malicious programmers have added malware on to some software, but to avoid those things you simply make sure you're downloading the official release) - if you get into appz and warez and all that stuff, you need to have yr wits about you is all. Anyway, anyone with a good firewall and a good router running bitcomet or utorrent or whatever isn't going to get their PC hacked by some kid in Turkmenistan. Still, in the end it's a personal choice eh!
ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
If you're not sure what torrents are, then look away now or investigate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent.
I recently started a thread announcing my uploading of a torrent featuring the fiddle playing of Mrs Galvin. I was happy to share recordings of her music via the peer-to-peer system because these are out of copyright (having been recorded by RTÉ in the early 1950s).
However, as anyone who has looked for ITM recordings via the various torrent search engines well knows, there's a real dearth of material available.
My quandary is this. I have a host of ITM recordings which I'd like to share. I'm not talking about readily available music, but recordings by labels which are long defunct or which were originally released as vinyl albums by companies which appear to have no interest in reissuing said recordings in CD format.
Let me give an example in explanation. I have a copy of the John Doherty LP 'Johnny Doherty', released by CCÉ in 1974. Legally, CCÉ holds the copyright to this. I've transferred the album's 16 tracks to CD and could make them available to others via PtP as MP3 files. However, I'd be infringing upon CCÉ's copyright in doing so and would also be concerned that I'd be denying John's descendants any income as a result of the process (that is, of course, if they're entitled to anything - it all depends upon the nature of the contract which John signed). I could approach CCÉ to seek permission, but, frankly, from previous experience, I don't reckon there's anyone at the Monkstown HQ who would be less than thoroughly confused by my request.
I'd be very interested in others' views. Should I bow to the copyright laws and basically do nothing or would it be better just to plough ahead and share the music I have with others?
I should add that I have no commercial interests - in other words, I'm not seeking to profit financially by making this music available.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Ive given this same thing some thought as well. I think the benefit to countless players around the world of having this music outweighs any financial considerations, and im sure if Johnny were alive (and knew what a torrent or p2p was) he'd feel the same way. Ive downloaded many out of print cd's from soulseek or bittorrents (not so much torrents these days) but I will still readily buy the actual cd if I find it available anywhere.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Splendid Isolation
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Think about it this way. If I download something and I really like it, and I can buy it I will. But if I never get a chance to listen to it first I'm not going to buy it.
I'm not sure how many people do it that way but I think it's more then most people might think.
I would love for you to upload more.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by whangee
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Brandon, you've completely missed the point.
It's not the 'financial considerations' which concern me, but the legal and ethical principles.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Whangee, you've missed the point too!
Could someone with a degree of sense please contribute to this thread?
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
If you cannot get it anywhere else, mates and p2p are the only option. I do not think anyone is going to sue you over recordings that are not on release as if the companies were losing money they would release them. Many recordings have not been rereleased with the artists still alive and many of the artists needing money. It may be illegal but I cannot see the harm. If we cannot listen to the music the artist cannot be better known; if the artist is better known then the record companies may find it viable to rerelease pleasing everyone.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by tlittlewazzock
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
You definitely should not.
Imagine that you're the artist with an out-of-print or hard-to-obtain recording. You might or might not object to people copying and distributing the recording, but you'd almost certainly object to someone else making that decision for you.
Any pragmatic arguments ("better for people to hear it than for it to languish in obscurity", "in the long run it will make money for the artist", etc.) miss the point. The music belongs to the copyright holder, and it isn't your place to make decisions about it.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by srt19170
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
If the players have gone to the Big Session in the Sky, I have no problem obtaining copies of their work. It's bit trickier if they're still breathing, particularly if their work is out of print, and they cannot financially benefit (though they ought to). In times past, you paid the fiddler a penny for his time and tunes. Should a miser sitting on a pile of gold (in this case, recordings languishing in the vault) and choosing to not make them available to the masses deserve the same consideration as the fiddler who makes his pennies by playing?
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by drone
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
That's a nice (house/car/yard/bank-account) you have there, drone. How about letting the masses have some access?
But seriously,
The set of things that are legal does not always equal the set of things that are ethical, and a few copyright holders have been known to do things that are <a href="http://www.tradmusic.com/newspage.asp?newsID=364">neither</a>;. The person with the biggest legal fund shouldn't always be the one in the right.
Legally, I think you're somewhere between "explicitly disallowed from sharing this record with anybody", and "disallowed, but nobody will make an issue of it". CCE themselves seems to be licensing all their own videos under Creative Commons licenses these days (which encourages sharing, while maintaining profit rights), suggesting that somebody there has something of a clue.
Ethically, you may have to decide for yourself whether it's better to share this music with those who would want to hear it and learn from it (as the performers would probably have wanted), or to respect the right (and assume the good judgement) of the copyright holder to make that decision themselves. As I'm sure we're all aware, not all things t
For me, when it comes to this sort of music I ask myself "If a fellow musician asked me to burn a CD of that record for their own personal use, would I do it for them?". In these cases, my own answer is most often "sure", but that often has qualifications. I'd feel much less certain about copying a readily available solo recording from an impoverished and currently touring musician than I would about copying one of the Bothy Band albums that Green Linnet infamously used to rake their musicians (our musical friends and heroes) over the coals. It's very easy to get socratic and pull apart any argument that comes down strongly on either side, but if you're really looking to do the right ethical thing here, it's probably not a bad idea to call the copyright holder(s) and have a little conversation. If nothing else you might come out of it with a clearer sense of what the right thing to do might be.
For the record, there does seem to be an increasing body of evidence that suggests (to some people) that file copying encourages, rather than discourages, record sales... But this still seems to be hotly debated, mainly between the people that want files for free and people that want to charge money for files. The rest of us are just as confused as to the right thing to do as you are.
In the end, I'm really liking the Creative Commons Licenses for this sort of thing. It makes life so much easier.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Georgi
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Io, Georgi.. I'm a musician, so that isn't my house and yard... and as for the bank account, well, it looks like the masses were already at it.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by drone
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Geoff - don't go near it. Legally it's a veritable minefield in which you have absolutely no rights in regard to the material in question. Give the CCE a ring and ask for a postal adress for someone who deals with their copyright, then send a letter explaining precisely what you intend to do with the music and the financial implications for you. And maybe they'll let you release it in some way (possibly non-downloadable) or something.
I suspect, however, your best bet is to back the data up to some fairly non-corruptible source and wait for the licence to expire (in about 20 years).
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Andy V
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
well, now everybody has the morality issue down, and can stand upon the soapbox about it, has anyone never copied a vinyl to cassette to listen to, or made mix tapes, or shared some music in the hopes that someone would be interested enough to buy it?
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Listen to Andy. Please, listen to Andy.
I am a court reporter. I've reported legal proceedings for these and similar issues. People DO most certainly get sued for this kind of thing, and they wind up paying large settlements plus whatever other humiliating consequences are theirs to face for pretty much forever.
If the composers are alive, find them, express your admiration and good intentions, and see what you can work with them in a written agreement. Pay money to have a professional find them if you just can't. And if they say no, be a sport.
Listen to Andy and SRT. The court reporter knows.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by cathrynb
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
my understanding of US copyright law is that educational purposes is fair use and does not require a release from the owner ofthe copyright, if it is within reason. So if you are shairng it so that people can sit at home listen and have a pint, you're out of luck. But if you are sending a tune to someone so that they can learn it...you might have a leg to stand on.
that beign said I'm not a lawyer, nor do i play one on tv
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by matan_fiddler
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Filesharing of copyrighted material is totally illegal. As to whether that constitutes immorality depends upon your perspective on the law. The law seems to involve itself in its own fair share of immoral acts. Personally I think that 'reproduction' in the world of music has created quite a different situation for musicians over the last fifty or sixty years, and not one that has been especially liberating. For some of course there have been ridiculous and entirely disproportionate profits on the backs of enormous album sales but the real beneficiaries have been the large corporations (virgin & sony to name but two), but for others it's meant being thrall to record companies who tell you what to record and etc. I'm all for dismantling such a crazy system. John Docherty, as far as I know, made his living out of going round playing, not sitting at home making albums.
IN the long history of music - especially trad music, whatever that is or has been - making money from reproduction is a relatively recent phenomena and not one which is necessarily essential or even desirable. I remember all those home "taping is killing music" stickers in the 80s. How wrong was that? It actually helped to propagate music! I doubt I'd have learnt half the music that I have it wasn't for home taping. I'd be surprised if thee had ever been a period in history when so many people were so competent at playing an instrument as there are at present in the west. This site is evidence of just how many people are involved in playing trad music, and this is only one of the many forms people are involved in. Twenty odd years ago round here - Cumbria, Lancs - hardly anyone played trad music, the standard wasn't particularly high and etc, but today there're loads of people and they're all pretty good. The easy availability of recordings made this possible. I even remember Martin Hayes talking about how he'd learnt loads of stuff from tapes.
Anyway, I'm all for torrents and filesharing of all kinds, legal or not. I think the moral question is one of recent provenance and one which is rapidly becoming obsolete. Just as recording itself cause a paradigm shift in the production and consumption of music, then so too is the internet causing another. Things will not remain as they were. The people who are really worried are those who had control - sorry to get Marxist here - of the means of re-production. Those means are now out of their hands.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by pavlf
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
The issue of education purposes is slightly different in the UK (as both the composer, the copyright holder and Geoff are bound by "UK" copyright law - it's the same in Ireland) - basically unless you're disseminating it to your pupils it's illegal.
The issue here isn't one of morality/ethics/manners - it's simply legal. I mean that in the sense that if they catch you then you don't have a leg to stand on and the consequences could be very severe. The difference between this and copying a tape/lending a CD etc is that it's going entirely into the public domain - all it takes is for one person to report it to the torrent provider (who have to forward potential copyright infringments) and/or the copyright holder and you're (potentially) screwed.
For the length of time it'll take you to enquire to the CCE it's not worth the risk.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
so many people are torrenting so may files - most of them the latest pirates film or whatever - so the chances of getting 'caught' on a torrent of some obscure Irish music are slender to say the least! I say go for it geoff, put the lot up! The risk is minimal, the ethics confused (like all ethics), the law an ass.
In the meantime I'm seeding the marvelous Mrs Gavin and tommy and cathal ... hope "they" aren't watching!
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by pavlf
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Ah go for it, Geoff. Publish and be damned! You know the cliche 'all it takes for evil to prosper, is for a few good men to turn their heads' or words to that effect.
And before anyone comments that I'm likening evil to a poor musician trying to make a few Euro. I'm not - this is still largely a folk tradition and the 'dog' is the large body of amateur musicians that carry the tradition. The 'tail' are the few who seek to make a living out of it and the larger media organisations. Let the dog wag the tail and not t'other way around.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Geoff, don't forget to tell us all which torrent server you're uploading them on when you do ;)
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Splendid Isolation
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Geoff.... it still belongs to someone legally probably. Most likely CCE, if you are thinking of putting up the LP as is. I would talk to them. They have a right to say no of course. Maybe you can make some deal about linking it to their sites, their events, something. I would think many there would be all for the exposure.
Where you could run into trouble... let's see. They decide they are going to sue you. Likely all they could do is make you take it down, cease and desist since you want no financial gain. Or maybe it would anger them, and I'd bet that they have some attorneys among their ranks who will take it on for free and give you a bad headache, if not legal bills to boot. Or they could do nothing, but you may have the constant worry at the back of your mind all the time, that maybe they would at a future date. Who needs sleepless nights over this?
A bigger question is do they own the original copyright to the actual 78s (I presume they were 78s) that were used, or to just their compilation project. There would be a difference. The actual 78s themselves may be expired on copyright depending on the date of release. That is an issue to look into. If you were to put up their entire album as is, track for track, you may have hell to pay. While you can copyright a project/compilation as such, it doesn't however necessarily mean they hold copyright to the original recordings, which may be the loophole you are looking for.
There are many art books for example, showing the art of one or more persons. As a visual artist myself, my work has been in quite a number of books and other projects. The publisher owns copyright to the book, the project., the compilation as such, but I have prior claim/copyright on my artwork that may have been used in it. So what this means, is just because a publisher reproduced my work in their book or compilation which they hold the copyright to, it does not mean they can sell my artwork to another third party just because it was in their project/compilation etc. I still own the rights, or if I die my heirs own it for 50 more years. If they wanted to sell my image in their book to someone else, they had better darn well contact me for permission, and if there was money involved thay had better work out a precentage to give me... most of it actually, and they could negotiate an agent's fee of sorts for themselves.
So I would bet you that CCE is not owner of the copyright on the original music but just on that project. Unless the family transferred the rights to them legally, which is possible but not likely. I would also bet somewhere in some old file is some agreement allowing them one time use of the tracks for this project. There may be issue however about uploading their actual tracks from the LP. Maybe you can find someone with copies of the original 78s they can record for you and you can put those up instead. CCE may know by a certian hiss or crackle that it was theirs, so be careful.
Maybe you can bypass them and try to find the heirs and get permission. I do know, for example, one book I did over 20 years ago, which some people still want, but not enough to warrant a reprint, if someone decided it should be out there available for all to see because it was good.... I'd be absolutely fuming if someone just put it up there, I would definitely say to get it down or threaten legal action. I am however, alive. I suspect my daughter would go after the person though. If someone contacted me and asked to put up parts of the book they thought were valuable, I might be more inclined to say, sure, just give me a link to my site.
Hope this helps. If you can find the family, I'd bypass the CCE, unless they made the actual original recordings, which I doubt.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
PS.... it's a very funny thing about human nature... they may not care about something or be ready to trash it, until someone else wants it. Then suddenly they want it or control of it again. Go figure! Be careful, keep yourself safe. You are wanting to do a good thing, but....stay safe!
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Hmm, lot's of food for thought and, just to clarify, the John Doherty LP referred to was an original album and not transferred from 78s. John Doherty did not record any 78s.
My own feeling is this.
1) Anyone using a P2P file-sharing scheme is breaking copyright unless the material being transferred (i.e. the music files being made available) is outside the copyright period. Using UK and Irish transcription law as a basis, that means it's fine for me to make available any recordings which were made more than 50 years ago. I don't think that this impinges upon the rights of others, from outside the UK and Ireland, to make copies of those files from a public domain website, as long as said files are only for personal use.
2) There are numerous Irish labels which have absolutely no intention of re-issuing their old vinyl material for various reasons - 1) the label doesn't exist any more, 2) nobody at the still extant label is aware that the material still exists, or 3) the label is aware of the material, but is not interested in reissuing it (for whatever reasons).
The point remains that all of those labels still retain copyright and I don't think any of us should be uploading torrents of their recordings without prior permission.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
It's just not a good idea to do it unless legal, you could be playing with a very unpleasant situation down the road though your intentions are the best.
I'd just ask them, offer links to their site. maybe to their membership page, offer them something for the privilege, make it seem much to their advantage which it would be. The best deals benefit everyone involved, so I'd talk to them and start with that approach. Maybe even ask them for advice as to what is best to put up, maybe they have other old LPS they would like to share. You never know, and the worst they could do is say NO!!
good luck!
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Moving this discussion slightly sideways, what are the security implications for using torrents? It seems to me (as a non-user of torrents), that if a large number of people, generally not known to each other, are spending a lot of time (and presumably band-width!) in passing large files between them, then there are big opportunities awaiting for the malware (viruses, spyware, etc) to step in, unbeknown to otherwise bona fide torrent users, and create mayhem.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ITM torrents - Comhaltas chimes in.
First, let me say that I can't speak *for* CCÉ: policy is decided by an elected committee of volunteers of which I am not a member. However, were you to send a query on this to Monkstown, it would probably land on my desk.
Anyway, I've heard most of these arguments before; I even had the privilege of hearing Prof. Lessig argue them before the US Supreme Court a few years in Eldred v. Ashcroft. These "abandoned" recordings that are still in copyright but out of print are a big issue, and one that I hope will be addressed by the courts in the coming years. I would even say that ITM in general has been boosted enormously by casual and bootleg recordings which the RIAA and any European court would consider infringing. I don't think that the courts are right on this one; I personally consider that the public domain is being squeezed out by massive content producers using ham-handed tactics to zealously enforce copyright with little regard for the long-term public good. But for now, the law is pretty clear.
Unfortunately, you aren't covered under a fair-use exemption -- any clause of the 2000 Copyright Act (as amended) would let you make exactly one copy at best, not to share it with uncountable anonymous strangers. I'd also argue against posting a torrent for practical reasons: the RIAA has been going mad lately suing everyone and their mother for distributing infringing materials. Also, as lazyhound points out, it's a vector for malware. Either way, doesn't sound like a good idea.
I'm pretty sure that I'm the only person at CCÉ who will notice were you to post the material -- and I'm not going to sue you, at least partly because I'm on your side on this one. Our main job at Comhaltas is to teach Irish music to thousands of kids every week - we're not out there trying to sue people for infringing copyright, and I'd say that we generally turn a blind eye to most people who make copies of our stuff (which is a lot of people, believe me). But I don't like the idea of breaking the law when there's a perfect legal option available.
Since you're not allowed to distribute the Doherty recording legally, and since we both think that it should be out there for people to listen to, how about this: if you send me the mp3 files, I'll post them on http://comhaltas.ie under a Creative Commons license (http://creativecommons.org), and then people can listen away to their heart's content. And of course I'll give you credit on the website for the digitisation work. Does that sound fair? I can't just put the recording into the public domain, even if I wanted to, but I can grant a Creative Commons license for certain uses, like listening and learning (but not making money), provided that attribution is given. (One problem with torrents is that the attribution bit can be extremely tricky.)
What do you think?
# Posted on June 4th 2007 by b
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
Looks like the best, and probably the only viable, solution so far.
# Posted on June 4th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
lazyhound--legal/ethical issues aside, I personally would not install *any* P2P software on my computer, for security reasons. Many P2P programs are full of spyware and adware. All of them create more opportunities for malware to get in, because they turn your computer into a server--other people can connect directly to your computer's file system.
Me, I'm too technically inept to safely run a server connected to the Internet, with all its dangers. I'll leave that to the professionals.
# Posted on June 4th 2007 by John Galt
Re: ITM torrents - the ethical and legal questions
I don't think this is the place to get into this - but the idea that *many* p2p progs are full of spyware is a bit misleading. Some might be, but most - those named above for eg - are fine. The main problems are with what you choose to download, not the software you chose to use to download it (if utorrent was stuffed full of malware and trojans and stuff how long would it be before the community found out? ... although saying that malicious programmers have added malware on to some software, but to avoid those things you simply make sure you're downloading the official release) - if you get into appz and warez and all that stuff, you need to have yr wits about you is all. Anyway, anyone with a good firewall and a good router running bitcomet or utorrent or whatever isn't going to get their PC hacked by some kid in Turkmenistan. Still, in the end it's a personal choice eh!
# Posted on June 4th 2007 by pavlf