Hi! I'm absolutely a newcomer to the world of Irish traditional music (and other music from that region of the world, as well), and I'd like a few pointers -- for instance, what makes a tune a "jig" as opposed to a "reel" or a "slip jig"? What distinguishes a "mazurka" from a "hornpipe" or a "barndance"? What's the difference between a "polka", a "slide", and a "strathspey"? And how do you recognize a "waltz" from a "three-two"? I admit I must sound quite the novice, but I am (plus, I'm only a 17-year-old lad from the states, with only a little bit of irish in his veins -- I have to go back about 6 generations before I can find an irish ancestor that I know about!) Even beyond classifying different types of tunes, how do I distinguish between Irish traditional music, Welsh music, Scottish music, English music, and various amalgams of them? I'd really like to know so I can further my understanding of this truly outstanding musical heritage. So far I've only memorized two tunes on my flute, and I don't even know if they're actually Irish! They're "Calliope House" and "The Butterfly". Thanks for all the info anyone can give me!
Welcome to the site Dave! No doubt you'll get an earful of advice here. But I'd suggest first that you dig through all the old discussion threads, since we've covered a lot of this ground before. Use the search function to look for "Welsh," Scottish," etc., and the different types of tunes.
Even better, find a local Irish trad musician and don't stop asking questions (and *listening*) until they fall down. There are also some good books out there--Fintan Vallely's "Companion to Irish Traditional Music" is a great encyclopedia of information about anything and everything to do with the music. See if you can get a copy through interlibrary loan, or (if you're serious about sticking with this stuff) order a copy from Amazon.com. Cover price is about $40 US, but it's worth every penny to get a handle on the players, the music, the culture, etc.
Here's a taste of what you need to start learning:
The types of tunes (jigs, slip jigs, slides, polkas, reels, etc.) are classified depending on their time signature and the types of dances done to them.
Jigs are basically in 6/8 time except for the jigs that aren't. Slip jigs, for instance, are in 9/8, and slides are a form of jig in 12/8. The basic 6/8 rhythm is "ONE two three ONE two three."
Reels are in 4/4, and so are hornpipes. Hornpipes tend to be played with more of a "dotted rhythm" or syncopated feel than reels, except when they're not played that way (*grin*...get used to it--there are no absolutes in Irish music).
That's a start. Keep asking questions, but spend some time on your own digging around for answers.
I highly suggest that you run right out and get yourself a copy of Barry Foy's "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session." It'll explain all of the stuff about the Irish part of what you're asking about. It'll also give you a feel of the sort of chancy Irish sense of humor that you'll be risking when you get into this stuff. (Keep in mind that there are two different ways of looking at this book -- one camp--usually those who have grown up with this stuff and in the culture--think it's a stupid waste of time to write stuff like that down and who insist that there ISN'T any etiquette to an Irish session, and one camp that says that this is complete and total bull puckies and that session etiquette borders upon the arcane.)
Also look up and purchase Ciaran Carson's "Last Night's Fun: In and Out Of Time with Irish Music".
Yer a fluter, so check out the woodenflute group and other such fine groups of players. Links are in the Links section under Musical Instruments.
Hang out with as many players as you can, and be willing to accept even conflicting pieces of advice (and then go home and figure out what you're going to keep and what you're going to throw away). Learn to learn the tunes by ear. (My own website might help you there -- http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS) Try reading through the old threads here, when you have some extra time to kill. Remember that not only will you be learning from other players, but at the same time, they will be learning from you.
You've asked some pretty big questions there, and they can't really all be answered all in one thread, nor stuffed into your head all at once. You'll learn some of this stuff, forget it, and then discover it again later and feel embarassed that you forgot it. Some of it won't make any sense until you've gotten some experience under your belt. Don't worry about it, you'll get there. Enjoy the trip. There will be days when you want to throw your instrument out into the road. And there'll be days when you'll feel that you're really starting to get there. Beware the time when you feel really cocky and confident that you're damned good! (This usually happens sometime in the first three years. Don't believe yourself.)
If you want more info on Calliope House and The Butterfly, go look the tunes up in the archives, and put the tune names into the search engine for the Discussions. You'll come up with several threads on these tunes. See if you can find the accompaniment thread with the post of the MP3 of my teachers, Shannon and Matt Heaton, playing The Butterfly and see if you want to incorporate some of Shannon's setting into yours.
What fun this stuff is. Hope you have half as much a good time as I've had so far with it.
Do Jeremy, our Benevolent Dictator here at The Session, a favor. If you purchase these things online, go to the Recordings section and get to Amazon using one of his links. That way he'll get a few pennies from Amazon from the referral from this website. (No, Jeremy did NOT ask me to bring you this short commercial.)
Hi Dave, welcome to thesesion.
Calliope house is scottish, and the original is in E, but it is very offen played in D.
For a beginner is not easy to distinguish between an irish and scottish jig/reel.( I am beginner in scandinavian music and I don't distinguish between norvegian and sweeden tunes).
Calliope House was written by Dave Richardson, who is a Geordie, so that really makes it an English tune....to quote a part of Jeremy's original entry wrt Calliope House:
Here's some additional info from Charles Anderson:
"This tune was written by Dave Richardson of 'The Boys of the Lough' and recorded and popularized by that group. The tune is dedicated to a long time friend of Cathal McConnell and The Boys of the Lough who owns a Victorian mansion in Pittsburgh where many concerts, parties and sessions have been held featuring traditional music of many styles. The house was dubbed 'Calliope House' when it became the home of a non-profit folk arts organization using the same name. This organization continues sponsoring folk music concerts and a folk music school in Pittsburgh under the name 'Calliope: the Pittsburgh Folk Music Society'"
If you're wondering who Calliope was, as I have often, there's this on Greek Mythology:
Calliope, along with Clio, Thalia, Euture, Erato, Urania, Terpischore, Polyhymnia and Melpomene make up the nine Muses of Zeus.
Calliope is the Muse of Epic Poetry. She is the eldest of the muses, and is most often seen with a pen and paper, sometimes scroll. She also has a golden crown that rests on her head.
Dave - apart from all the other useful advice above, might I say get as many CD's & tapes as you can, and listen, listen, listen. Eventually some pearls of wisdom will be osmosed. And good luck for the Journey!
Good luck to you, Gick, and welcome! I hope you continue. You already know what a joy it is to play, but trad sessions are an addictive whole other world...nothin' like 'em!
Good advice I've been given is to listen to everything you can get your hands on and to find an experienced irish trad flautist; to learn your tunes by ear...so you connect what you hear and feel (rather than see and feel training...your fingers responding to what they see by playing from notation), to plug into some local trad sessions (learn about session etiquette before you go), and to above all...ask...don't be afraid to ask questions. There is so much you learn from observing and asking...about little things that make a difficult tune suddenly turn like a charm (like a weird alternate fingering or a different way to approach an ornament).
...and be sure to dig around thesession.org. Feel free to visit and ask whatever your latest question is. When you learn, someone else learns with you here.
You might consider some of the tutorials we've been discussing by madfortrad and Scoiltrad. Do a search on those words, and you'll find what everyone had to say about them. There are free demos for flute and tin whistle (and other instruments) at the Scoiltrad site...I think you'll enjoy them, and it will give you a taste of what these things are like. You can also find CD and book tutors by various people (but you'll soon find your greatest teacher is your ear and your fingers trying to play what you hear).
Please search the sessions list to see if your sessions are there, and if they aren't, please post any sessions that you find near you to the site. Everyone is always looking for sessions when they travel, and one of us might find yours! If you need help with that...anyone here will be happy to assist...great bunch of folk here, and now you're another one!
You didn't say what type of flute you play or what type of music you played on flute before this? If it's Boehm, there are great tips from folk on here on making the transfer over to playing irish music on keyed, or switching to a trad keyless irish flute altogether.
Now...just me... my whistles allow me to practice tunes I know off and on all day, and I get a lot out of working new tunes out on whistle first. I can carry one of them everywhere and piddle tunes and fingerings out every little break I have. Besides being so portable and quick to take out/put away...I can put all my efforts into the fingerings and learning the tune without having to worry over embouchure and tone. I picked up a few tips on muting my whistles, so I can play almost anywhere without being too disturbing. Then I tackle the tunes on my keyless flute at home. If you play keyed flute, I guess you could do the same with a piccolo or keyed fife. Besides...the tiny things are fun and you'll be able to play all your tunes on two different instruments if you want variety at a session.
I do have a boehm-system flute (open-holed, though) so any tips on what that changes, etc. would be very helpful! I also have a little piccolo that I haven't played in maybe a year, a ceramic six-holed flute in G I think, a wooden six-holed in D, perhaps (not absolutely sure), a fife, a soprano recorder from the 3rd grade, and a coupla random ocarinas and pipes (two from Transylvania!) I dunno if any of those would be better to try certain songs on, but I guess I'll just experiment! I haven't actually found a session to attend yet, but hopefully I will soon. :D
BTW, I don't personally know any Irish players who would call themselves "flautists" -- they call themselves flute players or fluters or flutists. Doesn't mean they're not out there, of course.
I don't know any flute players who call themselves "flautists".
I don't know where this word came from; must be an American perversion. It's flutist, or flute player, or kissing stud.
Dave, I see from your member profile that you're in New England--no shortage of Irish music there, so you're bound to stumble on a good session sooner than later. See if you can find a flute or fiddle player to mentor you through the early part of your learning curve--it'll be much more efficient and satisfying that way. Check the session listings on this site for one near you.
The Latin languages have complex histories, coming from Latin mixed in various degress with the local languages of wherever the Roman soldiers went, and picking up some Greek from them too.
I don't have a good Portuguese dictionary here, so i can't tell you how this word derived. But one interesting thing is that the "genders" of some words vary between, say, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian. In Portuguese, BTW, there is no neuter; words are either feminine, masculine, or sometimes both. Flautista can go either way, so i think it's not derived directly from Latin but maybe from Greek.
Portuguese: mar (sea) is masculine
Spanish: mar is feminine
And so on. I have no idea of how to say jig and reel in Porguguese. Jig is probably "jiga", because it appears a lot in Classical music. Reel? Hornpipe? I don't think they exist.
We (Portuguese speakers) picked up some French words:
contradan
I suspect it is flautista, as it is in Spanish (as I recall from the A-level I did a few years ago - am I correct?) - and it would masc. or fem. - a bit like Sandinista (again m/f).
But, yes, "flautist" does sound a bit poncy - "flute-player" is appropriately earthy for our style of music. No doubt the violinists among you also prefer to be called fiddle-players!
Also, Dave, Zina is correct - stick to the metal flute. Eventually you may want to move on to a timber machine, or, like me, remain undecided and keep playing both (but not at once). Ultimately, you could do what Paddy Carty did - play a Rudall Carte Radcliffe model, which is a blackwood Boehm system job. They come in about
Well, I definitely know *one* thing for sure. If you stare at the word "flute" for a while, it starts looking *really* odd. Mark, our hijacking of threads never "erupt." They usually more like creep, not unlike certain molds, fungi, or noxious gases... *grin*
So now I have this Gilbertsonian vision of a band of bodhranista (clad in wildly colored scarves, eye patches, and breeches) 'sneaking' up on a quivering, quaking band of session players, loudly singing of their creeping, tiptoeing ways... Perhaps bodhran players are all nobles who have gone bad?
*note: please refer to a libretto of Pirates of Penzance if you don't get why this might be funny, I hate explaining my jokes... *snort*
When I worked in Nicaragua in 1989 on behalf of the Sandinista government, they were in power through a popular mandate. It was the US-backed contra who were the baddies. But maybe you lads know something I don't...
Bet you didn't think the discussion you started would be going so 'all over the place' as it is, Dave?
Hey, whenever we start talking about contra and contra bands here, we get in trouble.
Domhniall, you didn't study your history books. Whoever has the most money and the bigger guns gets to tell who is on the side of good and evil.
I remember clearly, though, when Nicaragua had their first election after the Sandinistas, that the Good Guys on the North bought the ellection by saying, pretty much: "if the Sandinistas win, we will invade you; if the opposition wins, we will give you financial aid". Then later, when the opposition did win, they forgot to send the financial aid. Ooops!
Glauber - I remember that charade clearly also. You may imagine just how good I felt then......
But that's another story.
It looks like here we go again.
A young guy I know has just joined the RAF - reckons he's not going to the Gulf - who's kidding who?
So, Dave - keep on playing the flute - it'll keep you out of mischief.
I assumed "flutist" was the Americanism as well, since I'd never heard anyone say "flutist" in England. That is, until I found this:
_________________________________________________
Am I Flutist or a Flautist??
In Nancy Toff's essential The Flute Book, she explains that the term flautist is associated with the negative connotations derived from the Latin verb, flaut which means to jeer or mock, which "apparently derives its meaning from the practice of playing a flute to ridicule."
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term flautist did not appear in English until 1860, when Nathaniel Hawthorne used it in The Marble Faun. ("The flautist poured his breath in quick puffs of jollity") The frequent use of the word flautist is probably inspired by the Italian terminology, flauto which pervades musical scores. Significantly, Hawthorne had lived in Italy for a yeard and a half before he wrote The Marble Faun.
The Oxford English Dictionary states that the word flutist (1603) is a much older established word than flautist (1860). Since the English term flute is obviously related to the modern French fl
Ahem -- Dave...BTW, I don't personally know any experienced Irish players who would call themselves "flautists" -- they call themselves flute players or fluters or flutists. This of course does not mean that "flautists" aren't out there, but since they know everyone else ("everyone" defined as other Irish players) would probably make fun of them as being rather poncy and twee, I'd assume that they tend to lay low.
*snort* And people wonder why exactly I write quite so many words to say something... ;)
As long as this thread is completely off topic and we're discussing the word "flute" in different languages, maybe you German-speakers or general linguists out there can help me settle an argument.
My friend and his sister were once having a (humorous) argument of the German pronunciation of Mozart's "The Magic Flute" (Die Zauberfl
Where do live in New England? There are any number of sessions all week in the Boston area and they kind of thin out as they move away from the city. Providence has a couple. Fall River, MA has one. Other than that I'm not sure what's going on in the hinterland. Check http://www.sessioneer.com/default.asp for session listings. Some are out of date so I would call any place listed to check before showing up. Good luck. If you are in the Providence area, Brad and I can be found in various locations and everyone will tell you what relly nice guys we are.
musical distinctions?
musical distinctions?
Hi! I'm absolutely a newcomer to the world of Irish traditional music (and other music from that region of the world, as well), and I'd like a few pointers -- for instance, what makes a tune a "jig" as opposed to a "reel" or a "slip jig"? What distinguishes a "mazurka" from a "hornpipe" or a "barndance"? What's the difference between a "polka", a "slide", and a "strathspey"? And how do you recognize a "waltz" from a "three-two"? I admit I must sound quite the novice, but I am (plus, I'm only a 17-year-old lad from the states, with only a little bit of irish in his veins -- I have to go back about 6 generations before I can find an irish ancestor that I know about!) Even beyond classifying different types of tunes, how do I distinguish between Irish traditional music, Welsh music, Scottish music, English music, and various amalgams of them? I'd really like to know so I can further my understanding of this truly outstanding musical heritage. So far I've only memorized two tunes on my flute, and I don't even know if they're actually Irish! They're "Calliope House" and "The Butterfly". Thanks for all the info anyone can give me!
-Dave
# Posted on January 27th 2003 by Gick
Re: musical distinctions?
Welcome to the site Dave! No doubt you'll get an earful of advice here. But I'd suggest first that you dig through all the old discussion threads, since we've covered a lot of this ground before. Use the search function to look for "Welsh," Scottish," etc., and the different types of tunes.
Even better, find a local Irish trad musician and don't stop asking questions (and *listening*) until they fall down. There are also some good books out there--Fintan Vallely's "Companion to Irish Traditional Music" is a great encyclopedia of information about anything and everything to do with the music. See if you can get a copy through interlibrary loan, or (if you're serious about sticking with this stuff) order a copy from Amazon.com. Cover price is about $40 US, but it's worth every penny to get a handle on the players, the music, the culture, etc.
Here's a taste of what you need to start learning:
The types of tunes (jigs, slip jigs, slides, polkas, reels, etc.) are classified depending on their time signature and the types of dances done to them.
Jigs are basically in 6/8 time except for the jigs that aren't. Slip jigs, for instance, are in 9/8, and slides are a form of jig in 12/8. The basic 6/8 rhythm is "ONE two three ONE two three."
Reels are in 4/4, and so are hornpipes. Hornpipes tend to be played with more of a "dotted rhythm" or syncopated feel than reels, except when they're not played that way (*grin*...get used to it--there are no absolutes in Irish music).
That's a start. Keep asking questions, but spend some time on your own digging around for answers.
# Posted on January 27th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: musical distinctions?
Hi Dave, and welcome!
I highly suggest that you run right out and get yourself a copy of Barry Foy's "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session." It'll explain all of the stuff about the Irish part of what you're asking about. It'll also give you a feel of the sort of chancy Irish sense of humor that you'll be risking when you get into this stuff. (Keep in mind that there are two different ways of looking at this book -- one camp--usually those who have grown up with this stuff and in the culture--think it's a stupid waste of time to write stuff like that down and who insist that there ISN'T any etiquette to an Irish session, and one camp that says that this is complete and total bull puckies and that session etiquette borders upon the arcane.)
Also look up and purchase Ciaran Carson's "Last Night's Fun: In and Out Of Time with Irish Music".
Yer a fluter, so check out the woodenflute group and other such fine groups of players. Links are in the Links section under Musical Instruments.
Hang out with as many players as you can, and be willing to accept even conflicting pieces of advice (and then go home and figure out what you're going to keep and what you're going to throw away). Learn to learn the tunes by ear. (My own website might help you there -- http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS) Try reading through the old threads here, when you have some extra time to kill. Remember that not only will you be learning from other players, but at the same time, they will be learning from you.
You've asked some pretty big questions there, and they can't really all be answered all in one thread, nor stuffed into your head all at once. You'll learn some of this stuff, forget it, and then discover it again later and feel embarassed that you forgot it. Some of it won't make any sense until you've gotten some experience under your belt. Don't worry about it, you'll get there. Enjoy the trip. There will be days when you want to throw your instrument out into the road. And there'll be days when you'll feel that you're really starting to get there. Beware the time when you feel really cocky and confident that you're damned good! (This usually happens sometime in the first three years. Don't believe yourself.)
If you want more info on Calliope House and The Butterfly, go look the tunes up in the archives, and put the tune names into the search engine for the Discussions. You'll come up with several threads on these tunes. See if you can find the accompaniment thread with the post of the MP3 of my teachers, Shannon and Matt Heaton, playing The Butterfly and see if you want to incorporate some of Shannon's setting into yours.
What fun this stuff is. Hope you have half as much a good time as I've had so far with it.
Zina
# Posted on January 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Do Jeremy, our Benevolent Dictator here at The Session, a favor. If you purchase these things online, go to the Recordings section and get to Amazon using one of his links. That way he'll get a few pennies from Amazon from the referral from this website.
(No, Jeremy did NOT ask me to bring you this short commercial.)
zls
# Posted on January 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: musical distinctions?
Hi Dave, welcome to thesesion.
Calliope house is scottish, and the original is in E, but it is very offen played in D.
For a beginner is not easy to distinguish between an irish and scottish jig/reel.( I am beginner in scandinavian music and I don't distinguish between norvegian and sweeden tunes).
best wishes and
greeting from italy.
# Posted on January 27th 2003 by gian marco
Re: musical distinctions?
Calliope House was written by Dave Richardson, who is a Geordie, so that really makes it an English tune....to quote a part of Jeremy's original entry wrt Calliope House:
Here's some additional info from Charles Anderson:
"This tune was written by Dave Richardson of 'The Boys of the Lough' and recorded and popularized by that group. The tune is dedicated to a long time friend of Cathal McConnell and The Boys of the Lough who owns a Victorian mansion in Pittsburgh where many concerts, parties and sessions have been held featuring traditional music of many styles. The house was dubbed 'Calliope House' when it became the home of a non-profit folk arts organization using the same name. This organization continues sponsoring folk music concerts and a folk music school in Pittsburgh under the name 'Calliope: the Pittsburgh Folk Music Society'"
If you're wondering who Calliope was, as I have often, there's this on Greek Mythology:
Calliope, along with Clio, Thalia, Euture, Erato, Urania, Terpischore, Polyhymnia and Melpomene make up the nine Muses of Zeus.
Calliope is the Muse of Epic Poetry. She is the eldest of the muses, and is most often seen with a pen and paper, sometimes scroll. She also has a golden crown that rests on her head.
Dave - apart from all the other useful advice above, might I say get as many CD's & tapes as you can, and listen, listen, listen. Eventually some pearls of wisdom will be osmosed. And good luck for the Journey!
# Posted on January 27th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: musical distinctions?
Good luck to you, Gick, and welcome! I hope you continue. You already know what a joy it is to play, but trad sessions are an addictive whole other world...nothin' like 'em!
Good advice I've been given is to listen to everything you can get your hands on and to find an experienced irish trad flautist; to learn your tunes by ear...so you connect what you hear and feel (rather than see and feel training...your fingers responding to what they see by playing from notation), to plug into some local trad sessions (learn about session etiquette before you go), and to above all...ask...don't be afraid to ask questions. There is so much you learn from observing and asking...about little things that make a difficult tune suddenly turn like a charm (like a weird alternate fingering or a different way to approach an ornament).
...and be sure to dig around thesession.org. Feel free to visit and ask whatever your latest question is. When you learn, someone else learns with you here.
You might consider some of the tutorials we've been discussing by madfortrad and Scoiltrad. Do a search on those words, and you'll find what everyone had to say about them. There are free demos for flute and tin whistle (and other instruments) at the Scoiltrad site...I think you'll enjoy them, and it will give you a taste of what these things are like. You can also find CD and book tutors by various people (but you'll soon find your greatest teacher is your ear and your fingers trying to play what you hear).
Please search the sessions list to see if your sessions are there, and if they aren't, please post any sessions that you find near you to the site. Everyone is always looking for sessions when they travel, and one of us might find yours! If you need help with that...anyone here will be happy to assist...great bunch of folk here, and now you're another one!
You didn't say what type of flute you play or what type of music you played on flute before this? If it's Boehm, there are great tips from folk on here on making the transfer over to playing irish music on keyed, or switching to a trad keyless irish flute altogether.
Now...just me... my whistles allow me to practice tunes I know off and on all day, and I get a lot out of working new tunes out on whistle first. I can carry one of them everywhere and piddle tunes and fingerings out every little break I have. Besides being so portable and quick to take out/put away...I can put all my efforts into the fingerings and learning the tune without having to worry over embouchure and tone. I picked up a few tips on muting my whistles, so I can play almost anywhere without being too disturbing. Then I tackle the tunes on my keyless flute at home. If you play keyed flute, I guess you could do the same with a piccolo or keyed fife. Besides...the tiny things are fun and you'll be able to play all your tunes on two different instruments if you want variety at a session.
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: musical distinctions?
I do have a boehm-system flute (open-holed, though) so any tips on what that changes, etc. would be very helpful! I also have a little piccolo that I haven't played in maybe a year, a ceramic six-holed flute in G I think, a wooden six-holed in D, perhaps (not absolutely sure), a fife, a soprano recorder from the 3rd grade, and a coupla random ocarinas and pipes (two from Transylvania!) I dunno if any of those would be better to try certain songs on, but I guess I'll just experiment! I haven't actually found a session to attend yet, but hopefully I will soon. :D
-Dave
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Gick
Re: musical distinctions?
I'd stick with your flute.
Leave the other stuff (which would be a bit esoteric at a session) for a bit.
zls
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: musical distinctions?
BTW, I don't personally know any Irish players who would call themselves "flautists" -- they call themselves flute players or fluters or flutists. Doesn't mean they're not out there, of course.
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Flautists (bleargh! vomit!)
I don't know any flute players who call themselves "flautists".
I don't know where this word came from; must be an American perversion. It's flutist, or flute player, or kissing stud.
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by glauber
Re: musical distinctions?
Dave, I see from your member profile that you're in New England--no shortage of Irish music there, so you're bound to stumble on a good session sooner than later. See if you can find a flute or fiddle player to mentor you through the early part of your learning curve--it'll be much more efficient and satisfying that way. Check the session listings on this site for one near you.
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: musical distinctions?
I think it's a classical thing. I first heard it from a European conductor of opera, myself.
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: musical distinctions?
I'm a classy guy, but when i hear "flautist" the image that comes to mind is an effeminate guy in 18th century attire and powdered wig.
It could be from Italian, maybe (flute = flauto), which would work well with the opera conductor crowd.
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by glauber
Re: musical distinctions?
An italian flute player is a "flautista".
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by gian marco
Re: musical distinctions?
Same in Portuguese (flauta --> flautista). So in English it should be flute --> flutist.
At least they didn't derive from the German (Querfl
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by glauber
Re: musical distinctions?
Why isn't it a "flautisto"? Are the endings of the words masculine, feminine or neuter?
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Language distinctions
Yes, they are... except when they arent.
Flautista can go either way, so i think it's not derived directly from Latin but maybe from Greek.
The Latin languages have complex histories, coming from Latin mixed in various degress with the local languages of wherever the Roman soldiers went, and picking up some Greek from them too.
I don't have a good Portuguese dictionary here, so i can't tell you how this word derived. But one interesting thing is that the "genders" of some words vary between, say, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian. In Portuguese, BTW, there is no neuter; words are either feminine, masculine, or sometimes both.
Portuguese, Spanish (?): flauta (feminine)
Italian: flauto (masculine)
Portuguese: mar (sea) is masculine
Spanish: mar is feminine
And so on. I have no idea of how to say jig and reel in Porguguese. Jig is probably "jiga", because it appears a lot in Classical music. Reel? Hornpipe? I don't think they exist.
We (Portuguese speakers) picked up some French words:
contradan
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by glauber
Re: musical distinctions?
I suspect it is flautista, as it is in Spanish (as I recall from the A-level I did a few years ago - am I correct?) - and it would masc. or fem. - a bit like Sandinista (again m/f).
But, yes, "flautist" does sound a bit poncy - "flute-player" is appropriately earthy for our style of music. No doubt the violinists among you also prefer to be called fiddle-players!
Also, Dave, Zina is correct - stick to the metal flute. Eventually you may want to move on to a timber machine, or, like me, remain undecided and keep playing both (but not at once). Ultimately, you could do what Paddy Carty did - play a Rudall Carte Radcliffe model, which is a blackwood Boehm system job. They come in about
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: musical distinctions?
Welcome Aboard dave - Feel free to engage in any meandering discussions that erupt in the middle of posts
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Mark Cordova
Re: musical distinctions?
Well, I definitely know *one* thing for sure. If you stare at the word "flute" for a while, it starts looking *really* odd. Mark, our hijacking of threads never "erupt." They usually more like creep, not unlike certain molds, fungi, or noxious gases... *grin*
zls
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: musical distinctions?
A little similar to that evil group of session-bandits, the "bodhranista"
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: musical distinctions?
So now I have this Gilbertsonian vision of a band of bodhranista (clad in wildly colored scarves, eye patches, and breeches) 'sneaking' up on a quivering, quaking band of session players, loudly singing of their creeping, tiptoeing ways... Perhaps bodhran players are all nobles who have gone bad?
*note: please refer to a libretto of Pirates of Penzance if you don't get why this might be funny, I hate explaining my jokes... *snort*
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: musical distinctions?
When I worked in Nicaragua in 1989 on behalf of the Sandinista government, they were in power through a popular mandate. It was the US-backed contra who were the baddies. But maybe you lads know something I don't...
Bet you didn't think the discussion you started would be going so 'all over the place' as it is, Dave?
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: musical distinctions?
Hey, whenever we start talking about contra and contra bands here, we get in trouble.
Domhniall, you didn't study your history books. Whoever has the most money and the bigger guns gets to tell who is on the side of good and evil.
I remember clearly, though, when Nicaragua had their first election after the Sandinistas, that the Good Guys on the North bought the ellection by saying, pretty much: "if the Sandinistas win, we will invade you; if the opposition wins, we will give you financial aid". Then later, when the opposition did win, they forgot to send the financial aid. Ooops!
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by glauber
Re: musical distinctions?
Glauber - I thought 'flutist' was the Americanism. They're always called 'flautists' (in the Classical world) in England.
I've always thought 'fluterer' (cf.'musicianer') would be a good word - or is that someone who sells flutes?
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: musical distinctions?
Glauber - I remember that charade clearly also. You may imagine just how good I felt then......
But that's another story.
It looks like here we go again.
A young guy I know has just joined the RAF - reckons he's not going to the Gulf - who's kidding who?
So, Dave - keep on playing the flute - it'll keep you out of mischief.
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Rudall the time
Flautists
David, but do they also wear powdered whigs there?
Domhniaill, at least your friend is on the side of Good.
What i would really like to know is, are Irish sessions in Nicaragua more open to Contra music?
Gosh, if this thread continues much longer i'm going to run out of smileys; better order a new batch.
g
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by glauber
Re: musical distinctions?
Hey David,
I assumed "flutist" was the Americanism as well, since I'd never heard anyone say "flutist" in England. That is, until I found this:
_________________________________________________
Am I Flutist or a Flautist??
In Nancy Toff's essential The Flute Book, she explains that the term flautist is associated with the negative connotations derived from the Latin verb, flaut which means to jeer or mock, which "apparently derives its meaning from the practice of playing a flute to ridicule."
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term flautist did not appear in English until 1860, when Nathaniel Hawthorne used it in The Marble Faun. ("The flautist poured his breath in quick puffs of jollity") The frequent use of the word flautist is probably inspired by the Italian terminology, flauto which pervades musical scores. Significantly, Hawthorne had lived in Italy for a yeard and a half before he wrote The Marble Faun.
The Oxford English Dictionary states that the word flutist (1603) is a much older established word than flautist (1860). Since the English term flute is obviously related to the modern French fl
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: musical distinctions?
Are we bored, or what???
The American Heritage
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by katiebythegate
Oh...and glauber...I believe you dropped this ~~~~~>
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by katiebythegate
...and I found another one over here in the corner
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: musical distinctions?
Hey look I've found all these. I could start a business...
Time for me to start some work I think!
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Dr. Dow
*grin*
Ahem -- Dave...BTW, I don't personally know any experienced Irish players who would call themselves "flautists" -- they call themselves flute players or fluters or flutists. This of course does not mean that "flautists" aren't out there, but since they know everyone else ("everyone" defined as other Irish players) would probably make fun of them as being rather poncy and twee, I'd assume that they tend to lay low.
*snort* And people wonder why exactly I write quite so many words to say something... ;)
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: musical distinctions?
Oh man, you guys are just too funny!
What are we going to do next, call fiddlers violinists?
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by glauber
Re: musical distinctions?
As long as this thread is completely off topic and we're discussing the word "flute" in different languages, maybe you German-speakers or general linguists out there can help me settle an argument.
My friend and his sister were once having a (humorous) argument of the German pronunciation of Mozart's "The Magic Flute" (Die Zauberfl
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by RG
Re: musical distinctions?
Dave, Dave . . . .wake up! I think they're gone.
Where do live in New England? There are any number of sessions all week in the Boston area and they kind of thin out as they move away from the city. Providence has a couple. Fall River, MA has one. Other than that I'm not sure what's going on in the hinterland. Check http://www.sessioneer.com/default.asp for session listings. Some are out of date so I would call any place listed to check before showing up. Good luck. If you are in the Providence area, Brad and I can be found in various locations and everyone will tell you what relly nice guys we are.
# Posted on January 31st 2003 by AOG