I was at a funeral yesterday, Micky 'Spoons' RIP. It was a sombre yet celebratory occasion in our local tavern with tunes and songs to give him a good send off. However I got chatting to a Manchester fellow who was bemoaning the lack of traditional songs, craic etc in his home town. He put it down the kids not learning these songs at school for fear of causing offence to migrant people settling in England. I never thought of the English tradition being under threat before. Does anyone recognise these symptoms? Should we be worried? Does the strength of Irish Music now tell us that any barriers can be overcome or as they say in Bel Shaft 'slap it up 'em?' What do you think?
Welcome to multiculturalism (ooh, a 7 syllable word, this is some heavy stuff here!). We know all about this here in North America, our cultures are built on it, although it's changed over the years---most of the time we like to think that we celebrate all cultures, but it's not so easy when you start dealing with issues like language and religion. But still, *generally*, we think the "melting pot" concept is a good one, it's made us strong and helped us thrive.
England and Ireland (and all the countries of Europe, really) have never had to deal with people from radically different cultures for most of their histories. England is feeling this more than Ireland right now because so many people have been moving to England, but it's starting to happen in Ireland too, and will only increase as the economy there improves.
I think in the past - that is, between the wars and maybe after - some English kids, at least, were taught folk songs deemed suitable for them at school, just as Vaughan Williams and Cecil Sharp would have wished. (This was my mother's experience, at school in the Twenties.)
I have trouble understanding how folk songs could offend anyone unless they’re pushing religion or offensive morals somehow! What can immigrants expect, anyway?
Here in the U.S., our folk songs and old-timey music (some of the building blocks for jazz) has been made fun of alot (good naturedly most of the time, admittedly) –
Still, I wonder if things would be different around here if not for the huge folk revival of the 60’s.
This was still just about happening in the 50s at primary school (5-11yrs), I also remember doing dances like "strip the willow" and "dashing white sergent". It was a load of fun then, and FAR better than the crungee making "Music and Movement" - pretending to be a tulip as instructed by the Home Service on a big bakelite radio.
".....some English kids, at least, were taught folk songs deemed suitable for them at school, just as Vaughan Williams and Cecil Sharp would have wished. (This was my mother's experience, at school in the Twenties.)"
(Not that all kids taught folk songs at school would lap them up adoringly, by any means; or at home, for that matter. I remember what I was like at six, seven..!)
Yeah I remember that too mehere. I'm trying desperately to remember the name of the programme but my memory is failing me (refer to earlier thread). I remember the programme would go around the 'British Isles' ouch, and inevitably when it came to Norn Iron we'd get to sing 'Star of the County Down' and hate ourselves more than we already did!
"taught folk songs DEEMED SUITABLE for them at school"
The school cannot/must not be depended upon for keeping traditional music. If it does not survive among the populace (the folk), it will not survive.
The popular folk song revival took place in spite of "suitable" instruction in school.
Do we remember Henry Bowdler as a keeper of folk song tradition?
"bowdlerize - expurgate...by removing or altering material considered improper or offensive"
Remember all the Victorian gentlemen who killed a sample or two of everything they could find in order to preserve the remains? Is that not similar to picking a few pretty tunes and phrases out of a living tradition, making sure that no nasty blood or guts remain, and keeping them warm and dry (but dusty) in school rooms?
Tell your man from Manchester to buy some CDs of good interpreters of folk song, if not field recordings of traditional singers, and play them at home for his kids AND himself.
"England and Ireland (and all the countries of Europe, really) have never had to deal with people from radically different cultures for most of their histories."
I was taught, both in school and by my parents, that the foundation for the strength of the English culture was its multi-culturalism and the fact that so many different peoples had contributed to it.
Picts, Celts, Britons, Romans, Gauls, Normans, Vikings, Germans, French, Africans (at several different points in UK history, not just the tentieth century as you might think - if you weren't thinking, that is), Russians and Poles (giving rise to a certain hysteria around the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries and forming a backdrop to Conrad's 'The Secret Agent'). Whole valleys in Wales were occupied by, for instance, Italians and Spanish (2 neighbouring valleys) and whole areas of London and most other major UK cities were, in effect, taken over by peoples of various races, including Jews, Asians, Chinese etc etc etc
And all of the above with most people here, of whatever ethnic makeup, being sublimely apathetic to anything vaguely cultural. Of course, the *authorities* have been harsh on various cultures, but the people have either joined in ... or not bothered ... Either way, anything for a quiet life ...
Interesting no doubt but then is it too simple to ask what is the English tradition? Tis hard to get the dreaded morris dancers out of my head. Are there examples of ceilis or are these just Irish/Scottish dos? Culture is too big a word anyway, I'm sure each area has its own themes sea shanties in Southampton - mining songs in Newcastle. I expect a little research on my part would help but all info is welcome..
What is the English tradition?
leg-before-wicket, old chum. World Cup - Bobby Charlton, Martin Peters - and eating lots of chips and fish and hole in the toads, and Dundee cakes on Piccadilly line.
What else?
... and, of course, most people in the UK (in Ireland too, for all I know) don't like the 'melting pot' concept, which achieved shortlived popularity (thankfully very shortlived over here) in the late 60s and 70s. It implies that the ideal to move towards is a 'blending' of cultures, which inevitably means the destruction of separate cultural identities within the whole. ("... turn out coffee coloured people by the score ...")
Shame. Much better to value the cultural diversity we have in such abundance.
And, having got my several rants over, to return to the question: there ain't no tradition under threat here, except from history itself. Some traditions will die, some will thrive, some will even emerge as new traditions. Can't do anything about it, shouldn't even try. Just enjoy it. Ain't it grand?
English traditions?
If you play an English traditional tune in England to a person who hasn't heard it before, he/she is quite likely to ask, "Tell me, was that Scottish - or was it Irish?"
There are all sorts of traditional activities in England, some of them bizarre, but playing traditional English dance music is a minority pursuit. With the folk revival there has been a great increase in the number of people playing and dancing - yes, ceilidhs included - but it's still below the radar for a lot of people in England, who (especially the older ones) instinctively associate all that sort of thing with Jimmy Shand and Scotland.
At the start of the folk revival there seem to have been really pretty few village instrumentalists; there certainly wasn't the equivalent of Ireland's
numerous musicians spread across the country, playing music with a strongly established technical base out of a large accepted repertoire in varying styles across the country. (And some of the stuff played by the old boys, as I remember, could sound pretty rough.)
Northumberland was different. The fiddle tradition was more developed and there was a longstanding interest in preserving and teaching the Northumbrian pipes through the c20. There weren't many playing these c1960, but there were enough. Maybe before, certainly during the folk revival, the Morpeth Gathering and one or more pipers' societies created a scenelet with competitions, publications etc. - more like what you might find in Scotland or Ireland, where Northumbrian players have also very readily looked for tunes and musical inspiration.
"Music and Movement" in the '50s,I'd forgotten all about that.
"And when the music stops children,we will all be trees.......)
Shades of Joyce Grenfell.
A number of points. I was at the funeral, Mickey "Spoons" was my brother. So the Manchester man must be Ian, who is from Saddleworth, a hot bed of English tradition, such as folk song, dance music and a long established clog Morris side, complete with a famous annual Rushcart festival. And most of those are what English tradition is all about.
Incidently, no-one in a working class game such as cricket says "leg before wicket, old chum". Much more likely to be "How's fuc###g thaat".
And always remember the "Father Ted" episode when all the musicians at the session in the local pub were Chinese. It could happen.
Some of us, here in Ingerland, are already multicultural. My family name is from the Huguenot refugees, a grandparent was Scots and Irish, and born in Barbados. My SO is an American whose ancestors came from the Polish/Russain borders. But we chose to play ITM/STM/ATM/ETM and anything else that takes our fancy.
Our daughter listens to Lou Reed, Alice Cooper, Tom Waits, The Oyster Band, the Battlefield Band, and Big Bad Voodoo Daddy. ( Didin't we bring her up well.)
Hopw much more multicultural do you need to be ? And anyone who teachs in school, as mySO does, already knows that one is in a multicultural society.What we really need is a Bhangra drum in the Morris band, an Afro-Carribean mumming play (ask Norma Waterson about her experiences at the radio station ).
I am a public school teacher here in Rhode Island, the smallest of the 50 US States. I was also a teacher in California. In the 12 years I have taught I have had exactly 6 white students. In some cities, for example, Providence, Rhode Island, Hispanics and African Americans make up 45% of the population. Ireland and England are about to experience "multiculurtalism" , with all of it's strengths and shortcomings. As a result, traditional folk songs may no longer be considered tradional, no more than you would consider a Spanish song traditional. I don't mean this too sound preachy. It's a reality though.I also lament the loss of many of the activiieies from my own culture. Brian (eedbjp)
I was just in the UK (both England and Scotland -- hopefully I'll get to Wales in another visit), and I have to say I found a lot of good traditional music still being played. If traditional music is under threat, it's from obnoxious pop music dictated by record companies (who have subverted the raw energies of both rock and country). As for offending the "ethicis," well, the trend here in the USA is for "music police" to get offended if one uses the wrong instrutment for a trad session (i.e.. using guitars). I would also must say that one of the best Irish-style flute players whom I used to hear at my local sessions was an African-American, who was very talented with many instruments across the board.
Hi bb,
It may be the case that:
"Incidently, no-one in a working class game such as cricket says "leg before wicket, old chum". Much more likely to be "How's fuc###g thaat"."
But it merely reveals you never studied your Monty Python as a shiftless youth ...
First, I would like to send my condolences to bodhran bliss, I'm sorry for your loss. Second, I don't think that immigrants should be blamed for a death of culture. It is up to the people of that culture to keep it alive. If immigrants don't like it, thats too bad.
I was amused to read in this thread that England is "about to experience multiculturalism". Thanks, Americans, for letting the English know so they can prepare for this. Give yourselves a pat on the back and go and read some books, and stop being brainwashed by what your politicians and media tell you about your utopian "melting pot". If books frighten you too much, maybe you could start with this http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/immig.html.
Here's another one that argues along similar lines http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/Briefingpapers/history/history.asp. On another page, it says "A majority of the population (69%) feel that Britain is losing its own culture." I could probably find zillions of sources like this on the net, and they all trot out the same line.
"Learning songs in school" can kill a tradition as surely as not learning them in school. You hate your teacher, you hate the songs. Death by tweeness. Funny old world.
I think it was the patronising presenters and the operatic woman singing. (This was the 1950's) There were some songs I liked - Caller Herrin, Bonny Charlie's noo awa, Farewell Manchester (another Jacobite song), - some songs are strong enough to survive anything.
Divilthebit, they have Barn Dances in England, complete with a "caller" who instructs those present in the ways of each dance, much as a teacher or someone would do when you first attended ceilidhs, if you have attended them. These could be great nights.
The song tradition is very strong, with many protest songs mirroring the proud tradition of working class protest in England.
And everyone please remember that more Americans voted against Bush than for him when he was first elected, illegally. As in any country, there are millions of decent, hard working, well informed, good Americans, including a few at the funeral, which is what prompted this discussion.
And Michael (divil) I was a dreaded North West clog Morrisman.
Bodhran I'm sure you got some stick from Mickey about the Morris dancing, with the bells,clogs and the hankerchiefs etc. Did the North West clog dance off against the South East clog...that would be some match! Still like most things there's no doubt more to it than meets the eye. I have no doubt either that the English are secure in their musical tradition and most of their musos I know are great craic too!
In the South of England it is "Cotswold" Morris, they do not have clogs, and cloggies do not have bells and hankerchiefs. The clogs are useful as a contingent of Chelsea "shed" supporters once discovered when we were dancing in London. No-one messed about with the "Gorton Morrismen".
Mickey loved it when he was over. An excuse to drink and have sessions all over England.
Morris gets an unfair rap(pper?) in my opinion. It's can be a great sight, is loads of fun when you get several sides all together and is even better when it's near a pub.
English traditional music is alive and well, and beginning to trancend the sessions where G major tunes made for dancing are plodded out all night. The influence of the Irish and Scottish is strong and a new more spirited approach to English indigenous music is making the scene far more vibrant and exciting.
If you don't believe me, go and see Bellowhead live - you will be amazed how mighty the craic can be!
For traditional music, these Islands are a fantastic place to live.
"Hello Schools" ...... trilled the chirpy William Appleby on the Singing Together programme.
I happened to live across the road from him so got press-ganged into his radio choir at the age of 8 as I was showing musical promise. We recorded once a week, straight through a programme with no breaks or re-takes allowed, and best of all, we got DOSH for it.
I am very proud to be one of the first people to be sick on air (as children do) - I had to do it quietly and sit there untill the recording had finished (the repertoire must have disagreed with me).
Although some of the material was a bit naff by modern standards - Ttossydillo, Green Broom, Skye Boat, Men of Harlech etc. it got all schoolkids having some exposure to folk music and made them have a go at singing.
I went on to be a pro-musician but I am certain the radio programmes played a big part in my formative years.
I'm surprised to hear there is a demise of English music. Maybe this is a phenomenon peculiar to "Up North" - which would be even more surprising.
Down here, it's thriving and there's an English session every Tuesday in Greenwich, equally thriving by all accounts, as one of our fiddle players, Paul Gross, is also a leading light in that sesh. Here's their website: http://www.greentrad.org.uk/
And in East Anglia, where I also spend a fair amount of time there is a very healthy English - or should I say East Anglian - music scene going on. Their website: http://www.eatmt.org.uk/
As I'm still trying to learn more Irish tunes, I think it will be some time before I embark on English tunes, but from what I've seen down here, it's well alive and kicking.
English trad is largely a hobby for consenting adults. There's plenty going on: it's just knowing where (sessions, festivals, etc.) to go to find it. "Happening" places may be scattered round the country a long way apart from each other. East Anglia is one of the best places to land if you want to find a truly continuous ETM tradition.
Plenty of songs come from the North-West; The Oldham Tinkers were a good song group from the 60s / 70s.
I know this was days ago, but I've only just spotted nicholas dissing cheese-rolling.
Come on guys, it's sacred round here!
(I know I'm technically in Herefordshire, but I'm only half a mile across the border, and my house has been in Gloucestershire probably more in its history than it's been in Herefordshire and I think I'm in Gloucestershire and ... and ... I'm rambling, aren't I? ... )
Anyway, cheeese-rolling isn't "bizarre". It's perfectly natural - a few broken bones never did anyone any harm. (in case you didn't recognise it, a cheesy grin)
English Traditions under threat
English Traditions under threat
I was at a funeral yesterday, Micky 'Spoons' RIP. It was a sombre yet celebratory occasion in our local tavern with tunes and songs to give him a good send off. However I got chatting to a Manchester fellow who was bemoaning the lack of traditional songs, craic etc in his home town. He put it down the kids not learning these songs at school for fear of causing offence to migrant people settling in England. I never thought of the English tradition being under threat before. Does anyone recognise these symptoms? Should we be worried? Does the strength of Irish Music now tell us that any barriers can be overcome or as they say in Bel Shaft 'slap it up 'em?' What do you think?
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by divilthebit
Re: English Traditions under threat
"Oh no, the imigrants are smothering our culture". Be very very careful
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: English Traditions under threat
I ain't touchin' this one!
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: English Traditions under threat
Welcome to multiculturalism (ooh, a 7 syllable word, this is some heavy stuff here!). We know all about this here in North America, our cultures are built on it, although it's changed over the years---most of the time we like to think that we celebrate all cultures, but it's not so easy when you start dealing with issues like language and religion. But still, *generally*, we think the "melting pot" concept is a good one, it's made us strong and helped us thrive.
England and Ireland (and all the countries of Europe, really) have never had to deal with people from radically different cultures for most of their histories. England is feeling this more than Ireland right now because so many people have been moving to England, but it's starting to happen in Ireland too, and will only increase as the economy there improves.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by kennedy
Re: English Traditions under threat
I think in the past - that is, between the wars and maybe after - some English kids, at least, were taught folk songs deemed suitable for them at school, just as Vaughan Williams and Cecil Sharp would have wished. (This was my mother's experience, at school in the Twenties.)
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by nicholas
Re: English Traditions under threat
I have trouble understanding how folk songs could offend anyone unless they’re pushing religion or offensive morals somehow! What can immigrants expect, anyway?
Here in the U.S., our folk songs and old-timey music (some of the building blocks for jazz) has been made fun of alot (good naturedly most of the time, admittedly) –
Still, I wonder if things would be different around here if not for the huge folk revival of the 60’s.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by morning star
Re: English Traditions under threat
This was still just about happening in the 50s at primary school (5-11yrs), I also remember doing dances like "strip the willow" and "dashing white sergent". It was a load of fun then, and FAR better than the crungee making "Music and Movement" - pretending to be a tulip as instructed by the Home Service on a big bakelite radio.
".....some English kids, at least, were taught folk songs deemed suitable for them at school, just as Vaughan Williams and Cecil Sharp would have wished. (This was my mother's experience, at school in the Twenties.)"
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by spindizzy
Re: English Traditions under threat
"crungee" = cringe
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by spindizzy
Re: English Traditions under threat
That's why we homeschool -- our kids will learn what's important/relevant to us -- not to our government education institution.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Reeds Munson
Re: English Traditions under threat
(Not that all kids taught folk songs at school would lap them up adoringly, by any means; or at home, for that matter. I remember what I was like at six, seven..!)
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by nicholas
Re: English Traditions under threat
When I was at primary school (1970s) I seem to recall a lot of folk songs and sea shanties on the 'singalong' radio programmes.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by minijackpot
Re: English Traditions under threat
Yeah I remember that too mehere. I'm trying desperately to remember the name of the programme but my memory is failing me (refer to earlier thread). I remember the programme would go around the 'British Isles' ouch, and inevitably when it came to Norn Iron we'd get to sing 'Star of the County Down' and hate ourselves more than we already did!
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: English Traditions under threat
"taught folk songs DEEMED SUITABLE for them at school"
The school cannot/must not be depended upon for keeping traditional music. If it does not survive among the populace (the folk), it will not survive.
The popular folk song revival took place in spite of "suitable" instruction in school.
Do we remember Henry Bowdler as a keeper of folk song tradition?
"bowdlerize - expurgate...by removing or altering material considered improper or offensive"
Remember all the Victorian gentlemen who killed a sample or two of everything they could find in order to preserve the remains? Is that not similar to picking a few pretty tunes and phrases out of a living tradition, making sure that no nasty blood or guts remain, and keeping them warm and dry (but dusty) in school rooms?
Tell your man from Manchester to buy some CDs of good interpreters of folk song, if not field recordings of traditional singers, and play them at home for his kids AND himself.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: English Traditions under threat
"England and Ireland (and all the countries of Europe, really) have never had to deal with people from radically different cultures for most of their histories."
I was taught, both in school and by my parents, that the foundation for the strength of the English culture was its multi-culturalism and the fact that so many different peoples had contributed to it.
Picts, Celts, Britons, Romans, Gauls, Normans, Vikings, Germans, French, Africans (at several different points in UK history, not just the tentieth century as you might think - if you weren't thinking, that is), Russians and Poles (giving rise to a certain hysteria around the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries and forming a backdrop to Conrad's 'The Secret Agent'). Whole valleys in Wales were occupied by, for instance, Italians and Spanish (2 neighbouring valleys) and whole areas of London and most other major UK cities were, in effect, taken over by peoples of various races, including Jews, Asians, Chinese etc etc etc
Oh, I could go on ...
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: English Traditions under threat
And all of the above with most people here, of whatever ethnic makeup, being sublimely apathetic to anything vaguely cultural. Of course, the *authorities* have been harsh on various cultures, but the people have either joined in ... or not bothered ... Either way, anything for a quiet life ...
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: English Traditions under threat
Interesting no doubt but then is it too simple to ask what is the English tradition? Tis hard to get the dreaded morris dancers out of my head. Are there examples of ceilis or are these just Irish/Scottish dos? Culture is too big a word anyway, I'm sure each area has its own themes sea shanties in Southampton - mining songs in Newcastle. I expect a little research on my part would help but all info is welcome..
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by divilthebit
Re: English Traditions under threat
What is the English tradition?
leg-before-wicket, old chum. World Cup - Bobby Charlton, Martin Peters - and eating lots of chips and fish and hole in the toads, and Dundee cakes on Piccadilly line.
What else?
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Ottery
Re: English Traditions under threat
... and, of course, most people in the UK (in Ireland too, for all I know) don't like the 'melting pot' concept, which achieved shortlived popularity (thankfully very shortlived over here) in the late 60s and 70s. It implies that the ideal to move towards is a 'blending' of cultures, which inevitably means the destruction of separate cultural identities within the whole. ("... turn out coffee coloured people by the score ...")
Shame. Much better to value the cultural diversity we have in such abundance.
And, having got my several rants over, to return to the question: there ain't no tradition under threat here, except from history itself. Some traditions will die, some will thrive, some will even emerge as new traditions. Can't do anything about it, shouldn't even try. Just enjoy it. Ain't it grand?
Anyone for some bigos, begorrah?
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: English Traditions under threat
Any Emglish people out there to help us out. I'm of Scottish descent.......
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by minijackpot
Re: English Traditions under threat
Ah! Are there indeed any Emglish people left in the world?
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: English Traditions under threat
English traditions?
If you play an English traditional tune in England to a person who hasn't heard it before, he/she is quite likely to ask, "Tell me, was that Scottish - or was it Irish?"
There are all sorts of traditional activities in England, some of them bizarre, but playing traditional English dance music is a minority pursuit. With the folk revival there has been a great increase in the number of people playing and dancing - yes, ceilidhs included - but it's still below the radar for a lot of people in England, who (especially the older ones) instinctively associate all that sort of thing with Jimmy Shand and Scotland.
At the start of the folk revival there seem to have been really pretty few village instrumentalists; there certainly wasn't the equivalent of Ireland's
numerous musicians spread across the country, playing music with a strongly established technical base out of a large accepted repertoire in varying styles across the country. (And some of the stuff played by the old boys, as I remember, could sound pretty rough.)
Northumberland was different. The fiddle tradition was more developed and there was a longstanding interest in preserving and teaching the Northumbrian pipes through the c20. There weren't many playing these c1960, but there were enough. Maybe before, certainly during the folk revival, the Morpeth Gathering and one or more pipers' societies created a scenelet with competitions, publications etc. - more like what you might find in Scotland or Ireland, where Northumbrian players have also very readily looked for tunes and musical inspiration.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by nicholas
Re: English Traditions under threat
"Music and Movement" in the '50s,I'd forgotten all about that.
"And when the music stops children,we will all be trees.......)
Shades of Joyce Grenfell.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by dafydd
Re: English Traditions under threat
A number of points. I was at the funeral, Mickey "Spoons" was my brother. So the Manchester man must be Ian, who is from Saddleworth, a hot bed of English tradition, such as folk song, dance music and a long established clog Morris side, complete with a famous annual Rushcart festival. And most of those are what English tradition is all about.
Incidently, no-one in a working class game such as cricket says "leg before wicket, old chum". Much more likely to be "How's fuc###g thaat".
And always remember the "Father Ted" episode when all the musicians at the session in the local pub were Chinese. It could happen.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: English Traditions under threat
Some of us, here in Ingerland, are already multicultural. My family name is from the Huguenot refugees, a grandparent was Scots and Irish, and born in Barbados. My SO is an American whose ancestors came from the Polish/Russain borders. But we chose to play ITM/STM/ATM/ETM and anything else that takes our fancy.
Our daughter listens to Lou Reed, Alice Cooper, Tom Waits, The Oyster Band, the Battlefield Band, and Big Bad Voodoo Daddy. ( Didin't we bring her up well.)
Hopw much more multicultural do you need to be ? And anyone who teachs in school, as mySO does, already knows that one is in a multicultural society.What we really need is a Bhangra drum in the Morris band, an Afro-Carribean mumming play (ask Norma Waterson about her experiences at the radio station ).
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: English Traditions under threat
The proofreader was taking a nap during the last posting.....
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: English Traditions under threat
I am a public school teacher here in Rhode Island, the smallest of the 50 US States. I was also a teacher in California. In the 12 years I have taught I have had exactly 6 white students. In some cities, for example, Providence, Rhode Island, Hispanics and African Americans make up 45% of the population. Ireland and England are about to experience "multiculurtalism" , with all of it's strengths and shortcomings. As a result, traditional folk songs may no longer be considered tradional, no more than you would consider a Spanish song traditional. I don't mean this too sound preachy. It's a reality though.I also lament the loss of many of the activiieies from my own culture. Brian (eedbjp)
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by eedbjp
Re: English Traditions under threat
I was just in the UK (both England and Scotland -- hopefully I'll get to Wales in another visit), and I have to say I found a lot of good traditional music still being played. If traditional music is under threat, it's from obnoxious pop music dictated by record companies (who have subverted the raw energies of both rock and country). As for offending the "ethicis," well, the trend here in the USA is for "music police" to get offended if one uses the wrong instrutment for a trad session (i.e.. using guitars). I would also must say that one of the best Irish-style flute players whom I used to hear at my local sessions was an African-American, who was very talented with many instruments across the board.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by NorthEagle
Re: English Traditions under threat
Hi bb,
It may be the case that:
"Incidently, no-one in a working class game such as cricket says "leg before wicket, old chum". Much more likely to be "How's fuc###g thaat"."
But it merely reveals you never studied your Monty Python as a shiftless youth ...
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Ottery
Re: English Traditions under threat
At least now we know what English tradition is.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: English Traditions under threat
First, I would like to send my condolences to bodhran bliss, I'm sorry for your loss. Second, I don't think that immigrants should be blamed for a death of culture. It is up to the people of that culture to keep it alive. If immigrants don't like it, thats too bad.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: English Traditions under threat
I was amused to read in this thread that England is "about to experience multiculturalism". Thanks, Americans, for letting the English know so they can prepare for this. Give yourselves a pat on the back and go and read some books, and stop being brainwashed by what your politicians and media tell you about your utopian "melting pot". If books frighten you too much, maybe you could start with this http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/immig.html.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: English Traditions under threat
BTW the idea is that when you've read it, you decide whether the writer is trying to sway you into thinking in a certain way...
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: English Traditions under threat
Here's another one that argues along similar lines http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/Briefingpapers/history/history.asp. On another page, it says "A majority of the population (69%) feel that Britain is losing its own culture." I could probably find zillions of sources like this on the net, and they all trot out the same line.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: English Traditions under threat
Now compare these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom and http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/short_history_of_immigration.stm. Amazing how these sources are looking at the same history, but they take the time to acknowledge things like racial prejudice. Sorry to post links to other sites like this, but this thread isn't really about the music is it? It's more about British bigotry. Shame you can't escape it, even on a website like this.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: English Traditions under threat
"Thanks, Americans, for letting the English know so they can prepare for this."
Hmmm. A bit of unintentional irony, there, maybe? (As if all Americans are alike.)
Boy, this stereotyping business is just chock-full of pitfalls, isn't it? :>}
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by John Galt
Re: English Traditions under threat
I think the radio programme was called (imaginatively) Singing Together. We did music and movement too, hated that but the singing was o.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by minijackpot
Re: English Traditions under threat
Mickray, yes, thank god they're not. Unfortunately the unbrainwashed ones are thin on the ground.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: English Traditions under threat
make that singing was OK
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by minijackpot
Re: English Traditions under threat
As an American I have to agree with Dow. The majority of Americans are very ignorant. It would be nice if more saw the big picture.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: English Traditions under threat
There were two radio programmes. 'Singing Together' and 'Rhythm and Melody'. Took years for my liking for music to recover!
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by c.g.
Re: English Traditions under threat
"Learning songs in school" can kill a tradition as surely as not learning them in school. You hate your teacher, you hate the songs. Death by tweeness. Funny old world.
Condolences bodhran on the loss of your brother.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Bren
Re: English Traditions under threat
I think it was the patronising presenters and the operatic woman singing. (This was the 1950's) There were some songs I liked - Caller Herrin, Bonny Charlie's noo awa, Farewell Manchester (another Jacobite song), - some songs are strong enough to survive anything.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by c.g.
Re: English Traditions under threat
Agreed, many Americans are abysmally ignorant. And a real shame that some of them are in such visible positions, making us all look bad. (sigh)
Just saying that you have to take people individually, it isn't useful to generalize about any nationality or ethnic group.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by John Galt
Re: English Traditions under threat
Divilthebit, they have Barn Dances in England, complete with a "caller" who instructs those present in the ways of each dance, much as a teacher or someone would do when you first attended ceilidhs, if you have attended them. These could be great nights.
The song tradition is very strong, with many protest songs mirroring the proud tradition of working class protest in England.
And everyone please remember that more Americans voted against Bush than for him when he was first elected, illegally. As in any country, there are millions of decent, hard working, well informed, good Americans, including a few at the funeral, which is what prompted this discussion.
And Michael (divil) I was a dreaded North West clog Morrisman.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: English Traditions under threat
Here is an example of a reasonably bizarre English tradition:
http://www.cheese-rolling.co.uk/
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by nicholas
Re: English Traditions under threat
hmmmm, I agree there nicholas! Not any more bizzare than the good ol' American tradition of rap and hip-hop!!
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: English Traditions under threat
Bodhran I'm sure you got some stick from Mickey about the Morris dancing, with the bells,clogs and the hankerchiefs etc. Did the North West clog dance off against the South East clog...that would be some match! Still like most things there's no doubt more to it than meets the eye. I have no doubt either that the English are secure in their musical tradition and most of their musos I know are great craic too!
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by divilthebit
Re: English Traditions under threat
Though few of us run down very steep hills chasing a cheese. I wouldn't even want to walk down that hill, never mind run at full speed.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by c.g.
Re: English Traditions under threat
In the South of England it is "Cotswold" Morris, they do not have clogs, and cloggies do not have bells and hankerchiefs. The clogs are useful as a contingent of Chelsea "shed" supporters once discovered when we were dancing in London. No-one messed about with the "Gorton Morrismen".
Mickey loved it when he was over. An excuse to drink and have sessions all over England.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: English Traditions under threat
Morris gets an unfair rap(pper?) in my opinion. It's can be a great sight, is loads of fun when you get several sides all together and is even better when it's near a pub.
English traditional music is alive and well, and beginning to trancend the sessions where G major tunes made for dancing are plodded out all night. The influence of the Irish and Scottish is strong and a new more spirited approach to English indigenous music is making the scene far more vibrant and exciting.
If you don't believe me, go and see Bellowhead live - you will be amazed how mighty the craic can be!
For traditional music, these Islands are a fantastic place to live.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: English Traditions under threat
We never danced unless it was outside a pub, I thought that was the whole purpose of the exercise.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Vomitting together
"Hello Schools" ...... trilled the chirpy William Appleby on the Singing Together programme.
I happened to live across the road from him so got press-ganged into his radio choir at the age of 8 as I was showing musical promise. We recorded once a week, straight through a programme with no breaks or re-takes allowed, and best of all, we got DOSH for it.
I am very proud to be one of the first people to be sick on air (as children do) - I had to do it quietly and sit there untill the recording had finished (the repertoire must have disagreed with me).
Although some of the material was a bit naff by modern standards - Ttossydillo, Green Broom, Skye Boat, Men of Harlech etc. it got all schoolkids having some exposure to folk music and made them have a go at singing.
I went on to be a pro-musician but I am certain the radio programmes played a big part in my formative years.
# Posted on April 16th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: English Traditions under threat
I'm surprised to hear there is a demise of English music. Maybe this is a phenomenon peculiar to "Up North" - which would be even more surprising.
Down here, it's thriving and there's an English session every Tuesday in Greenwich, equally thriving by all accounts, as one of our fiddle players, Paul Gross, is also a leading light in that sesh. Here's their website:
http://www.greentrad.org.uk/
And in East Anglia, where I also spend a fair amount of time there is a very healthy English - or should I say East Anglian - music scene going on. Their website:
http://www.eatmt.org.uk/
As I'm still trying to learn more Irish tunes, I think it will be some time before I embark on English tunes, but from what I've seen down here, it's well alive and kicking.
# Posted on April 19th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: English Traditions under threat
English trad is largely a hobby for consenting adults. There's plenty going on: it's just knowing where (sessions, festivals, etc.) to go to find it. "Happening" places may be scattered round the country a long way apart from each other. East Anglia is one of the best places to land if you want to find a truly continuous ETM tradition.
Plenty of songs come from the North-West; The Oldham Tinkers were a good song group from the 60s / 70s.
# Posted on April 19th 2007 by nicholas
Re: English Traditions under threat
Actually, I think the most reliable place to find English trad musicians is sleeping under the cider stalls at festivals in France.
# Posted on April 19th 2007 by nicholas
Re: English Traditions under threat
I know this was days ago, but I've only just spotted nicholas dissing cheese-rolling.
(in case you didn't recognise it, a cheesy grin)
Come on guys, it's sacred round here!
(I know I'm technically in Herefordshire, but I'm only half a mile across the border, and my house has been in Gloucestershire probably more in its history than it's been in Herefordshire and I think I'm in Gloucestershire and ... and ... I'm rambling, aren't I? ... )
Anyway, cheeese-rolling isn't "bizarre". It's perfectly natural - a few broken bones never did anyone any harm.
# Posted on April 19th 2007 by ethical blend