I had an interesting experience last night and this morning which I thought I'd share, in case anyone has some thoughts on it, or has had a similar experience.
Last night, on a long drive, I was listening to Edel Fox & Ronan O'Flaherty's great CD, http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2117
when I got to the slide set, track 7. I knew both tunes, was able to hum along with them, and knew that I could play them both. I couldn't come up with a title for the first one, but the second one I knew was Patsy Geary's. I thought to myself, I should play them when I get home in the hopes that I would remember to introduce the set to our session (where we already play Patsy Geary's). I looked up the title of the first one on the album, but it was in Irish and I didn't recognize it.
When I got home, I had about an hour's worth of stuff to do. By then, I had forgotten the first tune, I had shut down the computer, the CD was still in the car, and it was raining hard. So I went to bed.
This morning, I looked it up here. It wasn't linked to the tune because of a variant spelling, but I've fixed that. As soon as I found the English title (When the Cock Crows it is Day), the tune popped into my head instantly.
In other words, I knew the tune, I knew the title, and the title would trigger the tune, but the tune would not trigger the title. So apparently our brains make links that are directed from one memory to another. If we want to link the memories in the opposite directions we have to create that reverse link.
Then there's the issue of how reliably these links work. In Ireland with friends in January, two of us took turns on three consecutive days when we heard "Bird in the Bush" asking the other "what's the name of that?" We both knew the tune. We both knew the name. But one day one of us couldn't come up with the name after hearing the tune, and the next day the other couldn't.
I had a great fiddle teacher, Kim Vincent. I could bring a recording of any tune and he'd figure it out so he could teach it to me. His head is full of tunes and he can name most of them! He had an interesting story about each tune I learned, sometimes it had to do with when or why he learned the tune, and other times it was a history of the tune itself. This has inspired me to learn as much as I can about the tunes I play, including knowing the title (and alternate titles) as well.
I too have that problem sometimes Gary, I can usually play along, but the tune really settles in when I figure out what it is! Puts it in context for me I guess. Interesting topic.
In the same vein, as a church organist in one place for 30 some years, I always say I see 700 of my closest freinds every Sunday. But I have to ask Herself about their name when we see one of them at the market.
Othe musicians are always asking me "do you know...." or "what's the name of the 2nd tune you played?"
I never keep track of names, except for my very favorite tunes. It is a bit embarassing when someone says "I loved that tune! I would love to learn it, what is it called?" And I have to look up the ABC format here and get back to them.
I always do have some sort of Identification of each tune, but mostly their names to me are "the second jig I learned from Liz Carroll"
Gary, I also find that tune titles lead to remembering the tune much more frequently than hearing a tune leads to the title. And sometimes I would swear that a tune is familiar, but I don't know how to play it, and then I find that my fingers remember it, even though my brain doesn't, and I am able to play along.
Yeah, I use some sort of subconscious mnemonic device that attaches the names of the tunes to the first several notes. Interestingly enough, the attachment is to the position of the notes on the fretboard, not the names of the notes themselves. So I am often the person in our sessions that people look to and ask "how does x tune go?", or in mid-set, "can you start y?"
But I had a problem with that for quite some time. I used to have problems when someone else started a tune in session that I knew I played, but couldn't remember what it was called. I used to not be able to play it very well until I remembered what it was called. But I think a lot of that was putting way too much of my available brain power into trying to figure out what tune it was, instead of actually playing it. Now I just relax, and play the tune. If the name hasn't come to me by the end of the tune, I can always ask what it was later.
For me the tune names are like the icons on my computer desktop. The tune is buried somewhere on my hard drive and if I don't have a title the search feature is more complicated. If I know the name I just click on it and the tune comes up. There are pluses and minuses to this of course because sometimes (as someone mentioned above) I can't play the tune fully until I remember the name. But this isn't always the case; as time goes on I can play the tune just fine whether I know a title or not. But knowing the titles does come in handy for remembering what tune you wanted to start.
Morse code - remember that? I had to learn it when I was at school. It was easy to get to the stage of being able to rattle out code, so automatically that you can do it without comprehending the text because you are thinking about lunch, or sex, or something else interesting. And at the same time you can be hopeless at receiving - each pattern hangs there and you think "now what's that - is it C? No. Is it Q? ...". So yes, remembering name -> tune is one thing, going tune -> name does strangely seem to be a separate job.
I know a fair few tunes and a fair few names, but probably more tunes than names. Both sets do not wholly intersect, and there are loads of tunes that I can't mind the names of and names that I can't mind the tunes of, and another load of both that I've got wrong, I'm sure.
From reading the posts above, there are a variety of ways of remembering both names and tunes, so, Gary, I'm not sure what you mean by:
"....our brains make links that are directed from one memory to another. If we want to link the memories in the opposite directions we have to create that reverse link."
I suspect diferent people have slightly different mechanisms for this set of mental tasks.
The bit of the brain where the auditory cortex is sited is the STG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_temporal_gyrus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_auditory_cortex
And the speech centre is Broca's and Wernicke's area: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernicke's_area
Memory formation is thought to be potentiated in the hippocampus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus
(Ah, thank god for Wikipedia!)
So I presume there are fibres (ie, axons) running between these three areas, but no doubt other cortical regions are involed, eg the prefrontal cortex. Anyway all I've done is show where these areas are on the "map" without alluding to function.
I have no idea what actually happens physically in the brain. All I'm saying is that last night, when I heard A, I recognized A and knew that I knew A very well, but it didn't bring to mind B at all. Two hours later, I couldn't even remember A and still didn't know B. The next morning, I still couldn't remember A. I looked up B, and my brain instantly recalled A.
I conclude that at some point, I learned that the tune whose name is B goes like A, but never learned that the name of tune A is B. Of course, when I learned that B is the name of tune A, I knew that it works both ways, but that didn't get recorded in my long term memory simply because I understood it consciously.
Gary, or anyone, I don't know whether you'd have had the time to have a look at any of the Wiki articles, but they do go some wayuin explaining cortical organisation for sound perception, eg:
The primary auditory cortex is tonotopically organized, which means that certain cells in the auditory cortex are sensitive to specific frequencies. This is a fascinating function which has been preserved throughout most of the audition circuit. This area of the brain “is thought to identify the fundamental elements of music, such as pitch and loudness.”
This makes sense as this is the area which receives direct input from the medial geniculate nucleus of the thalamus. The secondary auditory cortex has been indicated in the processing of “harmonic, melodic and rhythmic patterns.” The tertiary auditory cortex supposedly integrates everything into the overall experience of music.
the phenom i'm struck by is that i am starting to have the name-with-tune problem the more tunes i learn, and i don't think it's only accountable to tune overload. perhaps it is that my brain is attempting a pattern mnemonic by matching the title with some patch or run or mode change in the tune that it finds distinctive, and the match then gets blurred as i acquire more tunes with patches similar to the "distinctive" one selected as the memory-marker....
Memory links between tunes and titles
Memory links between tunes and titles
I had an interesting experience last night and this morning which I thought I'd share, in case anyone has some thoughts on it, or has had a similar experience.
Last night, on a long drive, I was listening to Edel Fox & Ronan O'Flaherty's great CD,
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2117
when I got to the slide set, track 7. I knew both tunes, was able to hum along with them, and knew that I could play them both. I couldn't come up with a title for the first one, but the second one I knew was Patsy Geary's. I thought to myself, I should play them when I get home in the hopes that I would remember to introduce the set to our session (where we already play Patsy Geary's). I looked up the title of the first one on the album, but it was in Irish and I didn't recognize it.
When I got home, I had about an hour's worth of stuff to do. By then, I had forgotten the first tune, I had shut down the computer, the CD was still in the car, and it was raining hard. So I went to bed.
This morning, I looked it up here. It wasn't linked to the tune because of a variant spelling, but I've fixed that. As soon as I found the English title (When the Cock Crows it is Day), the tune popped into my head instantly.
In other words, I knew the tune, I knew the title, and the title would trigger the tune, but the tune would not trigger the title. So apparently our brains make links that are directed from one memory to another. If we want to link the memories in the opposite directions we have to create that reverse link.
Then there's the issue of how reliably these links work. In Ireland with friends in January, two of us took turns on three consecutive days when we heard "Bird in the Bush" asking the other "what's the name of that?" We both knew the tune. We both knew the name. But one day one of us couldn't come up with the name after hearing the tune, and the next day the other couldn't.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
Tunes have names now?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by peterlenz
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
I had a great fiddle teacher, Kim Vincent. I could bring a recording of any tune and he'd figure it out so he could teach it to me. His head is full of tunes and he can name most of them! He had an interesting story about each tune I learned, sometimes it had to do with when or why he learned the tune, and other times it was a history of the tune itself. This has inspired me to learn as much as I can about the tunes I play, including knowing the title (and alternate titles) as well.
I too have that problem sometimes Gary, I can usually play along, but the tune really settles in when I figure out what it is! Puts it in context for me I guess. Interesting topic.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by anastasiadesroches
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
My standard line- "Hum me a few bars"
In the same vein, as a church organist in one place for 30 some years, I always say I see 700 of my closest freinds every Sunday. But I have to ask Herself about their name when we see one of them at the market.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by zippydw
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
Othe musicians are always asking me "do you know...." or "what's the name of the 2nd tune you played?"
I never keep track of names, except for my very favorite tunes. It is a bit embarassing when someone says "I loved that tune! I would love to learn it, what is it called?" And I have to look up the ABC format here and get back to them.
I always do have some sort of Identification of each tune, but mostly their names to me are "the second jig I learned from Liz Carroll"
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by girlwiththegreenfiddle
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
Gary, I also find that tune titles lead to remembering the tune much more frequently than hearing a tune leads to the title. And sometimes I would swear that a tune is familiar, but I don't know how to play it, and then I find that my fingers remember it, even though my brain doesn't, and I am able to play along.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
Yeah, I use some sort of subconscious mnemonic device that attaches the names of the tunes to the first several notes. Interestingly enough, the attachment is to the position of the notes on the fretboard, not the names of the notes themselves. So I am often the person in our sessions that people look to and ask "how does x tune go?", or in mid-set, "can you start y?"
But I had a problem with that for quite some time. I used to have problems when someone else started a tune in session that I knew I played, but couldn't remember what it was called. I used to not be able to play it very well until I remembered what it was called. But I think a lot of that was putting way too much of my available brain power into trying to figure out what tune it was, instead of actually playing it. Now I just relax, and play the tune. If the name hasn't come to me by the end of the tune, I can always ask what it was later.
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
For me the tune names are like the icons on my computer desktop. The tune is buried somewhere on my hard drive and if I don't have a title the search feature is more complicated. If I know the name I just click on it and the tune comes up. There are pluses and minuses to this of course because sometimes (as someone mentioned above) I can't play the tune fully until I remember the name. But this isn't always the case; as time goes on I can play the tune just fine whether I know a title or not. But knowing the titles does come in handy for remembering what tune you wanted to start.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
Morse code - remember that? I had to learn it when I was at school. It was easy to get to the stage of being able to rattle out code, so automatically that you can do it without comprehending the text because you are thinking about lunch, or sex, or something else interesting. And at the same time you can be hopeless at receiving - each pattern hangs there and you think "now what's that - is it C? No. Is it Q? ...". So yes, remembering name -> tune is one thing, going tune -> name does strangely seem to be a separate job.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Linsey Doyle
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
I know a fair few tunes and a fair few names, but probably more tunes than names. Both sets do not wholly intersect, and there are loads of tunes that I can't mind the names of and names that I can't mind the tunes of, and another load of both that I've got wrong, I'm sure.
From reading the posts above, there are a variety of ways of remembering both names and tunes, so, Gary, I'm not sure what you mean by:
"....our brains make links that are directed from one memory to another. If we want to link the memories in the opposite directions we have to create that reverse link."
I suspect diferent people have slightly different mechanisms for this set of mental tasks.
The bit of the brain where the auditory cortex is sited is the STG:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_temporal_gyrus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_auditory_cortex
And the speech centre is Broca's and Wernicke's area:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernicke's_area
Memory formation is thought to be potentiated in the hippocampus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus
(Ah, thank god for Wikipedia!)
So I presume there are fibres (ie, axons) running between these three areas, but no doubt other cortical regions are involed, eg the prefrontal cortex. Anyway all I've done is show where these areas are on the "map" without alluding to function.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
I have no idea what actually happens physically in the brain. All I'm saying is that last night, when I heard A, I recognized A and knew that I knew A very well, but it didn't bring to mind B at all. Two hours later, I couldn't even remember A and still didn't know B. The next morning, I still couldn't remember A. I looked up B, and my brain instantly recalled A.
I conclude that at some point, I learned that the tune whose name is B goes like A, but never learned that the name of tune A is B. Of course, when I learned that B is the name of tune A, I knew that it works both ways, but that didn't get recorded in my long term memory simply because I understood it consciously.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
Gary, or anyone, I don't know whether you'd have had the time to have a look at any of the Wiki articles, but they do go some wayuin explaining cortical organisation for sound perception, eg:
The primary auditory cortex is tonotopically organized, which means that certain cells in the auditory cortex are sensitive to specific frequencies. This is a fascinating function which has been preserved throughout most of the audition circuit. This area of the brain “is thought to identify the fundamental elements of music, such as pitch and loudness.”
This makes sense as this is the area which receives direct input from the medial geniculate nucleus of the thalamus. The secondary auditory cortex has been indicated in the processing of “harmonic, melodic and rhythmic patterns.” The tertiary auditory cortex supposedly integrates everything into the overall experience of music.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Memory links between tunes and titles
the phenom i'm struck by is that i am starting to have the name-with-tune problem the more tunes i learn, and i don't think it's only accountable to tune overload. perhaps it is that my brain is attempting a pattern mnemonic by matching the title with some patch or run or mode change in the tune that it finds distinctive, and the match then gets blurred as i acquire more tunes with patches similar to the "distinctive" one selected as the memory-marker....
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by ceemonster