In a business world there’s a phenomenon known as the Peter Principle: employees rise to the level of their incompetence. If you are good at your job you will keep getting promoted to jobs requiring higher levels of expertise and responsibility until you reach a position that exceeds the level of your competence, and there you will remain, one step beyond your optimum performance level.
The Peter Principle is rampant these days in the choice of tempo in much of the playing of Irish traditional music. Usually when you try to play as fast as you can, as so many are wont to do, you don’t know what that tempo is until you have exceeded it. People usually end up playing as fast as they can’t, playing just beyond the speed their ability to play cleanly, with expression and sensivity will allow, the Peter Principle.
Maybe the notion that faster is better has to do with the fast pace of modern life. Maybe trad players feel they compete with rock and roll, that speed equals energy and excitement. Whatever, most of the top Irish traditional bands play reels and jigs on their CD’s and in concerts at a blazing tempo. Even with the astounding skill and mastery at which they play, there is a cost to the integrity and inherent beauty of the tunes themselves. Impressive to the listener at first and for awhile, lickity-split playing eventually becomes tiring to the audience. The listener’s ear eventually becomes inured to the din. How many times have you heard your non-trad friends say that all Irish tunes sound the same?
These speed demons are role models for average to advanced session players who listen to, and learn tunes off of these CD’s, often feeling obliged to match a pace they can never hope to handle with the mastery a more leisurely perspective could achieve. Ornaments get left out, or worse, sluffed over. Lilt, accents, dynamics and all the things that contribute to the personality of a tune, its soul, is sacrificed at the altar of the demon speed. Sessions turn into track meets.
The fabulous and renowned layed-back playing Mayo/New York boxer, flutist, Dermott ‘Darby’ Grogan, first made me aware of this situation as not merely a quantitative problem but, indeed, a qualitative one. I’d previously laboured under the illusion that speed was a relative thing, a matter of artistic choice. I knew I had grown musically to the point where I preferred the more leisurely layed-back approach of the Martin Hayeses, Kevin Burkes and Óisin Mac Diarmadas, but suspected my inability to cleanly handle the break-neck pace set by many of the young bucks at Manhattan sessions to be the real cause of my preference, a form of sour grapeism to be sure. Darby labours under no such insecurity. To him it’s not just a matter of preference, there is a right and a wrong way to play traditional Irish music, and hyper-attenuated speed-balling is nothing more than ‘pure s…..e’. There isn’t a nicer guy in all New York Irish musicdom, so it was very refreshing to hear such ‘un PC’ candour from one so respected. The trad scholar Don Meade and virtuoso fiddler Brian Conway also of New York have echoed these sentiments, yet the speeders abound from sea to shining sea and beyond. Let the message go out; let the debate begin.
I mean really, shouldn’t a three hour session be more like a marathon than a succession of sprints? Like in a marathon you might want to kick it near the end, just for kicks. But if you start out lickity-split from the beginning, you’ll have nowhere to go by the end, except home alone, as your audience most likely, will be worn out and long gone.
The fine New York fiddler Patrick Ourceau once told me that the musician should be playing in service of the tune and not the other way around. The very talented Ray Coen of Sligo told me that the highest compliment a player can receive is, what a lovely tune, not, what an impressive talent you are. In other words, the tune isn’t a vehicle for the player to impress the audience with his virtuosity but rather the players virtuosity is a vehicle to impress the audience with the beauty of the tune.
Playing for speed and not taking the time to find the individual personality that each of these tunes possesses by patiently exploring the landscape of a melody like a hiker traversing the hills, valleys and plateaux of the countryside is killing the soul of traditional music much like ATV’s, dirt bikes and snow mobiles are killing the environment. So please, slow down and smell the noises.
I like that:
"In other words, the tune isn’t a vehicle for the player to impress the audience with his virtuosity but rather the players virtuosity is a vehicle to impress the audience with the beauty of the tune."
An excellent, measured article. We could start a bad-boy list of culprits. Unfortunately, you could go back a long way. Some of those ol' boys who made 78s in the USof A in the twenties went like the clappers. Maybe they were trying to squeeze their tunes in to fit the four minute format of 78s, or maybe I'm being charitable. I won't play any faster than I want to these days. I get the odd raised eyebrow when I refuse to partake in a set that I just know is going to go like a bat out of hell. No point to it.
Yawn......not this again. Who is this Wayne Webster anyway...is he a musician? And what is this speed is a way to prove that you a virtuoso bollicks - I mean for god sakes! Ive only heard one musician in that whole list he intervied and while I though he was ok - nothing special -
Someone better go tell Tommy Peoples to slow down cause he plays faster that Martin Hayes and apparently some guy who lives in America thinks that bad.....Oh My god - I'm sure he'll be heartbroken....
I think it's OK to rehash topics on forums like this every now and again. Different people, different opinions and I love to read 'em all. You don't have to click the topic!
Lovely set of tunes and great playing there on Youtube, bb. You lot knock spots off our Cornwall fiddle players and where can I get a guitar player as good as her! All you lack is a harmonica player y'know!
The only thing is this over opintionated self inflated kind of ego, journalistic crap. Thats why I asked - who is this wayne webster - can he play?
"I play slow because I was talking to Dermott Grogan and he said it was ok" (imagine Cartmans voice)
Its like that fabulous article in treior that wants all backers basically banned from playing in sessions. Where do they get these people from? That really is what my problem is - not the Topic - its the actual article.
Bridie it's important that we slow people down while we can and stop the Padraig Rynne's, Brian Duke's, John McSherry's and Donal O'Connor's of the world from inflicting a slow painful death on traditional music. If only these heathen could have a fraction of the respect and kid gloves approach to trad as their (apparently) infinitely more enlightened american bretheren For the record i've heard (and in all honesty played) tunes really badly rendered at all speeds. The same as the argument about methods of learning tunes, I don't think it's at all reasonable to suggest that playing between a certain bpm range guarauntees good music. P.s. I'd love to see that guy tell Seamus Tansey to slow down because Darby Grogan from New York said he's playing outside tempos that are acceptable for traditional music. Got bloodbath??
I cant beleive you just called me Bridie online - its beebs. God - you'll blow my cover and then I'll get into trouble with the speed mafia for slagging of Dermott Grogan and Wayne Webster!
And as for Padraig and Brian, John and Donal - it amazes me they even dare record...Its quite obvious that they have no clue about tunes and that they also cant play.....how embarrassing for them....
How are we to do this, though, Ben? Are we to punish them in some way for playing too fast? Maybe we should appoint people with cattle prods to help the Padraig Rynnes, Brian Dukes, John McSherrys and Donal O'Connors of the world realise that they should be slowing down - DZZZZZZT tha'll teachya ya lil fecker.
"And as for Padraig and Brian, John and Donal - it amazes me they even dare record...Its quite obvious that they have no clue about tunes and that they also cant play.....how embarrassing for them...."
Word. I swear I'd be embarrassed ever to be seen or heard to be playing that fast and that well. They should be ashamed of themselves.
I know. The ability to play curly Gminor tunes on flute is a rare and horrible disease. As far a controlling the problem goes, i'm seeing some sort of lepper colony maybe
It can be called "Comhaltas Camp" it'll be on some deserted island - we can send all those crap musicians who dare to play about 70bmps and all those crap backers as well - like Paul Meehan, John Doyle and Sirnose there as well. Have fun Sirnose -send me a postcard - make sure you sterilise it first though.
um, is it just me or did that article actually contain a real life "to be sure"..?
see, the yanks ARE more irish than the Irish!
(mind you, that's better than us aussies - all we can manage is to be more english than the Irish... Though with the rapid americanization of Aussieland, maybe we'll end up being more 'Merican than the American's and THEREFORE.... more Irish than the more-irish-than-the-irish american's!!! See, don't lose hope Aussie's, we'll win in the end!!!!!!!!!!.......)
i couldn't agree more. i recently read a comment saying that liam o connor is the best accordian player around because they've never seen someone play so fast!!! if this is peoples perception then i agree with you wayne. thankfully there are enough quality musicians on the scene to stop the likes of such fast players as martin tourish from changing the tradition of our music
Yes Trad! God you are so clever - why dont you just slag someone off personally and have nothing whatsover in your bio. Wow - I wish I was as clever as you.
on a more serious note in relation to the article, this guy should try playing for dancers... Two figures for your average set dancers'll make you play faster than you thought possible or, indeed, reasonable. But then again, maybe Mr. Webster isn't talking about Dance music, but the highly-evolved americo-Irish music that has sagely disassociated itself from the general unpleasantness of dancing.
(sorry, I don't mean to be so flippant but this is SUCH a silly article, I can't beleive i wasted the time reading the whole Bl**dy thing!!! grrr.)
I totally support anybody who wants to play as fast as they like, certainly much faster than I'm ever likely to be able to.
It's a pity it bores people and makes them say that everything just sounds like the same old fecking diddlydiddlydiddlydee. I tell them they should take up the pipes, fiddle or at least the bodhran, and when they can play really really fast they will then have a right to an opinion, but by that time they will like it!
Until then they should keep their opinions to themselves, spoilsports that they are, and spend time listening in awe to reels played at 140 bpm, reels played 150 bpm, reels played at 160 bpm... There's variety for ye! The sky's the limit, lads! Who dares, wins!
Up speed! Up speed! Up speed!
I totally support anybody who wants to play as fast as they like also -as long as they overheat and spontaneously combust right in front of me. Blazing fiddles and accordions indeed. Har f\/kken Har!!
i couldn't agree more with swfl's opener, at least as to my own taste. i have taped on my wall an excerpt of an interview with mr. ourceau saying he refuses to give in to the speed thing [ and in a ceili setting, the guy can for sure play fast]. it is next to a clip from mike rafferty who is adamant on this point [i have seen him and mary rafferty playing very fast for dance also]. for me, it is indeed qualitative in a deep aesthetic sense, although i practice faster because i too wish to become a good dance player.
but it is also objective fact that some of the most traditional players have been super-fast. michael coleman. tommy peoples. matt molloy---not at all my style, but these are hardcore tradition bearers.
i don't think the problem is an absolute of speed being bad. the problem is this hegemony that seems to have taken over of contempt and musical fascism by idiots who don't understand that hyper-speed is not the "only" and "best" standard. it is that kind of ignorant doltishness, not fast playing in and of itself, that makes me sick. there are people in my city who don't know anything but the speed demon hall o' fame, and they have contempt for anything else. they don't know, and could care less, about....willy clancy, joe ryan, paddy carty, etc, and consign any playing of that type to the trash heap. to me, that is the problem, not fast playing per se.....
De gustibus, etc. One could draw parallels to eating, sex, or other activities of sensual pleasure along with music. If it goes too fast, who can savor? Not I, sez this old duck.
Terry
Much like the ignorant doltishness that equates the slow-conteplative Mr. Hayes, the 'mystic east-clare' bollox' Kevin burke, Micho Russell etc, with being the only true 'soul' of irish music.
But people who play fast mostly arent ignorant or fasciast - they just like a different style of music, the Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloys, Liz Dohertys etc of the world. Thats what annoys about this article - its one sided completely - its biased and judgemental and obvious that this guy couldnt cut it as a musician so spends his time writing stupid articles about things he obviously knows nothing about!
It is all good if it's what you like. I hate superspeed meself, but if you like it go for it say I. But I'm not having it in our session (i.e. I won't go along with it, not that I have much say!) because I have no wish to ditch all the charm of the music (or all my ornamentation) for the sake of going like the clappers and managing to keep up and no more, and the other blokes are as bad as I am at speed. A different set of players might be more adept than us at carrying it off at speed, so good luck. It's just that I may find myself decamping into the jukebox bar when I hear it, that's all.
It's funny. The bulk of these threads on right vs wrong and good vs bad all originate with someone making assertions as to objective criteria and then wind up with everyone pack pedalling into "oh it's just not my thing". Perhaps if you approached it in this way in the first place you p#ss so many people of or continually highlight your own stupidity. Not singling out anyone in particular here, just a small observation. The fact is that music is a highly subjective art form and it is fierce difficult to set down any kind of criteria for good versus bad on issues of interpretation (speed etc). Obviously form a technique stand point it is much easier to apply said criteria, but trying to do it when discussing these sorts of issues is a waste of time. IMHO.
Everyones idea of speed is different anyway...what I think is medium paces some may find really fast and what I think it slow some might find a lovely cracking pace....its all personal opinion really...
I hope you weren't reading my post as back-pedalling, Mr Evening. I have firm views on this that I don't waver from when it comes to my own circumstances. It's just that speed is out there big-time and you either live with it or lump it. You can't ban it any more than a pure-drop freak could ban Irish supergroups. But it is good to talk about it. I'm listening.
I could have sworn i said i wasn't referring to anyone in particular I just find it interesting that no matter how many times it's proven to be impossible people on this site still seem determined to come up with some kind of trad rule book, strict adherence to which will result in the ultimate pure drop super hero. It's laughable really.
beebs commented:
"and obvious that this guy couldnt cut it as a musician so spends his time writing stupid articles about things he obviously knows nothing about!"
I like your measured and careful tone, especially the way you avoid commenting on things that would take mind-reading or clairvoyance to know. Like me, really.
Up speed! Up speed! Up speed!
There's a handful of musicians who can still sound musical above about 120 bpm for reels. In that category, I'd put Tommy Peoples, Liz Carroll, Liz Doherty, Joe Derrane, Frankie Gavin, Sean McGuire, Brian Conway, Johnny Doherty, and maybe another half dozen. They can do whatever they want to and I'll appreciate it. Almost everybody else I've ever heard play that fast loses me. I can't listen that fast. I can't even decide whether or not I recognize the tune.
I love the fast tune, but when all of them are played at the same, relentless pace (often far above what many of the participants can really handle) then it gets boring quickly an unmusical race to the finish. And when hornpipes get the same, flat-out flat treatment, it just sounds like gibberish.
I totally agree with the premise of this, although I think everyone has their own definition of "too fast". Too fast is when the tune is lost. As my dear late friend Paul Wilkins used to bawldly ask people who played so fast that the tune turned into a garbled mess, "why do you hate the music so much?!!" A little tongue-in-cheek, admittedly, but not entirely.
For me, it's not actually about beats per second, but rather the space inbetween the notes. That sounds a little pretentious, but hopefully ye'll get what I mean...It's totally possible to play at what is actually breakneck speed while retaining total control and with the tune coming across completely clearly. Take Dervish for example, they play wild fast but you almost wouldn't know it from their records unless you actually sit down and try and play along with it. Same with loads of other musicians, as have already been pointed out here.
It's not about conventional definitions of 'fast' and 'slow', it's the space between the notes that matters!!!
"People usually end up playing as fast as they can’t, playing just beyond the speed their ability to play cleanly, ..."
There's the crux of the article, as I read it.
I don't see Mr. Webster talking about musicians that play as fast as they CAN (e.g., Tommy Peoples, Martin Hayes, et. al.). The way I read this, the author is bothered by those folks that "play as fast as they can't"... you know, those that think they CAN play as fast as the great ones.... until the wheels come off.
This Webster fellow isn't going to change anyone's opinion. Fortunately, there's room enough in this world for any one of us to play at whatever tempo suits us. Nobody puts a gun to our head & demands that you play at one particular speed. If you don't like the general speed at one session, start or find a different session, I say.
"It's totally possible to play at what is actually breakneck speed while retaining total control and with the tune coming across completely clearly."
-- Lizzy
I agree with this completely, and I think that's what the article's author is trying to say here as well.
Some of the best fiddling I've heard is on Martin Hayes' "Live in San Francisco" CD -- there's one set I think it start's with the Carraroe Jig - it's incredibly well done - and played VERY slowly... later in the same CD, it's Martin doing what he does best, hair's on fire, going wildly at the tune.... but when HE plays fast, he's mastered that 'space between the notes' and plays wonderfully both at fast tempos and slow.
Sadly, there are far too many that THINK they can play fast without crushing the tune. One of my own worst habits is playing too fast - and at uneven tempos through a tune. Only recently I started using a metronome, and I was surprised how fast I was playing some tunes. So the next step was to record myself. What an eye opener that was!
Yes, I too have been guilty of starting a tune too fast for myself.
It's not exactly like having a gun to my head......... but there's that peer pressure to play faster, I think. It's good to be aware of it, I think.
People who play well at their chosen (high) speed have the freedom to pretty much laugh at this 'Speed Kills' journalism.
"I knew I had grown musically to the point where I preferred the more leisurely layed-back approach of the Martin Hayeses, Kevin Burkes and Óisin Mac Diarmadas..."
Grown musically?!
Ah, so Tommy Peoples is kids' stuff. Wow, I'm lapping this up. Wayne Webster must be the ITM equivalent of Yoda by now. I wonder if he can make instruments play themselves using the Force.
No no it's ok Beebs, because there are green fields and mountains and clear streams in France too, and also old women in shawls and lowing cattle and songbirds in the trees, so he should pass thesession.org test from the board of clueless tw@ts.
Wow dow, you must be psychic! It was just the other day my flute was telling me about this time he almost got it on with this chick-flute, a bizarre high end model with these strange bun-shaped keys on either side of her head(joint). Lucky he didn't crank it up though coz it ended up that my flute and bun-head were actually brother and sister!!! (shock!) they were both the children of an evil big-bored german-model blackwood jobby, with black enamel keys and a penchant for dark-sounding marches...
(P.S. this is NOT an excuse to start playing that feck'n annoying 'skywalker' jig the tune-inator insisted on playing every session a few years back!)
I wonder when this penchant for fast playing started. I mentioned that superspeed on some old 20s 78s so it isn't recent. Maybe someone more scholarly than I can find a speed rant somewhere from the 19th century! Altan (whom I love to bits) can play pretty fast, and just listen to early 4 Men (Mr Hayden) and De Dannan (Mr Gavin). Yet there are other groups such as Planxty and Patrick Street who nearly always play(ed) at a more measured tempo. It's a matter of opinion, but of the ones I've mentioned only Planxty habitually played at what might be termed typical session speed (I know, I know...) and they have had some stick (not from me) for being "plodding." Listening to it live in a session is one thing, repeated listening to a CD is another altogether. Herein lies a possible thing. A supergroup can hardly, they may be thinking, just stand up there on stage and play reel after reel after jig at "sensible session speed." They have to put on a show after all, and, among a lot of other means of bringing variety to the act, they will want to show off their prowess and that may well include virtuosic displays of very fast playing. Gets a big cheer innit. So we have these role models who play superfast and that invites emulation and so it goes on. End of entirely meaningless and ramblingly pointless musing.
this is an easy topic to get heated over but no point in that. opinions are opinions and while i could say, oh ye're all horribly wrong, i think that would be just adding to this squabble of ignorance and negativity. this discussion, i think is not really about speed but rather about the values people hold in the music.
my take on it is that in this genre of music there are two camps:
the first has the characteristics of being; against what they percieve as 'speed', involved in comhaltas, and largely, although with *notable exceptions*, technically and/ or imaginativley medicore. the primary concern of this group as i read in a comhaltas document is the concept of identity. that's why we see such loyalty to the utopian goal of pure traditional music.
the second camp is open to faster playing, primarily because they are able to, it's simple to them, they/ we CAN (contrary to myth) hear all the notes, and appreciate what is going on. an interesting characteristic of this group is that they undoubtetly play much more often that people from the first camp. and the important difference is that music is not played for identity. part of the reason for my belonging to the second camp is because i believe that identity should be the *result* of something you do.
to play music for extra musical reasons such as identity, *pure* comercialism, or your aunties 40th birthday party; is personally to me uncomfortable. it's like wearing tight shoes all day so you can have the pleasure of taking them of and saying you done it. a more acceptable comparison to both sides would have been lent!
i've tried to write this as subjectively as possible because outside of personal opinion i think this is how the topic should be viewed. my main observation about this post is that many people who belong to the first camp experience alot of negativity and hostility towards other musicians. this to me is the ultimate wrong. music to me should never eminate negativity. folk music is an expression of the people and to undermine some peoples expression can not be good.
as regards donal o connor and john mc sherry, i've just spent 20 days with their band in germany and i can tell you that the dedication, knowledge, musicality and soul they have in their music is really exceptional. to undermine this because of what what the rest of the herd in particular societies think is the critic losing out on a treasure that many other people have loved.
they, i, and many more don't care what people think of us because to us, we've found a truth. we smile and cry when we play music and if other people aren't as lucky as to have attained that, then i really think they shouldn't knock it. i'll let the final word go to one of the worlds greatest artists:
To regret one's own experiences is to arrest one's own development. To deny one's own experiences is to put a lie into the lips of one's life. It is no less than a denial of the soul.
Martin, I think you''re right. The fastest players I know locally tend to be the technically most secure and the most imaginative. And you can hear everything they play.
Wow!? I had some suspicion this would get to the 'thee and thou' stage... & the force too? Is this animism? Thank the powers that be it is only pixels... I suspect all sane jurors have either made an excuse or escaped and it is left to ye solicitors all? I see the window was left open, I'm jumping too, just wanted to say ~ unnnh!, I think I feel a bit ill and aspirin ain't the cure...
I'm having a lovely day actually ~ and all morning I've been listening to fine music, all Irish, mostly fiddling, and quite a lot of Dale Russ... None of it is rushed, all of it has my feet and heart and soul dancing... Now that beats aspirin anyday and is all I need to settle the slight upset a small fraction of this thread caused. The quesiness is gone now, the headache subsided...
I agree with almost all the sentiments in your post, Martin, but you threw the baby out with the bathwater when you condemned the "first camp" as technically and/or imaginatively mediocre, apart from notable exceptions. This is self-evidently not the case. I can think of very many fine ITM musicians in the public eye who eschew "superspeed" and I know many fine players not in the public eye to whom it would not occur to play that way. Your statement contradicts slightly your laudable "live and let live" admonition at the end. You need to invent a third camp, methinks. A condition of belonging could be that those in it know nothing about, or simply ignore, Comhaltas. There are plenty of us around.
Was it 'llig' who recently said that if it is comfortable, it is the right speed? I like to play fast sometimes and slow sometimes, to fit the mood, tune, etc. I tend to prefer a slower pace because it is personally more comfortable to me, but I don't condemn speedsters if they can handle the pace. But a whole album at breakneck speeds tends to make me jumpy, I will find another CD to listen to. People should mix it up a little, variety is the spice of life after all.
Has anyone else ever picked up an instrument to play along with a 'leisurely' tune on a CD, only to find that it moves at a pretty good clip? Some people's comfortable pace is pretty quick, and it can fool your ear.
The only time I dislike speed is when people's playing gets mushy as they play too fast for themselves (and trust me I have done this to myself), and also when one or two person's penchant for speed leaves others behind in a session, and destroys the cohesiveness of the group--takes the craic right out of the evening!
This topic comes up endlessly and rightfully so as speed is one of the many facets along with poor tuning, lack of sensitivity, etc that can ruin traditional music. However, there are no simple answers as it's a complex question. Wayne Webster is 100% right and his Peter Principle analogy where people are promoted to their level of incompetency applies equally to aspiring musicians who try to play at speeds way beyond their ability level. On the other hand to say that speed in itself is a bad thing is not necessarily true as for example with the inspired playing of Tommy Peoples, it's the beauty of the music that one is conscious of and not the tempo.
For most musicians I'd agree with Michael that the speed where it feels comfortable is the right speed. As for listeners it's also a subjective thing and personally I'd much prefer the East Clare music, Joe Cooley, etc rather than De Dannan or some of that 1920s Sligo stuff (sorry some may consider this a bit blasphemous) played at 90 miles an hour.
It is no surprise to me that when a musician is relaxed and the beat steady it can sound 'leisurely'. Just as true, when they can't hold it together and it wavers all over the place, faster for this bar or phrase, slower for that, or even wavering within a few notes ~ it can sound rushed and hurried ~ I meant HORRID!
I was out of the cage today, wondering around a 'city' would you believe, and I came across something similar. There was this cyclist, keeping a good pace, when out of a side street this impatient jerk squealed tires and cut across in front of him and then weaved in and out of and between other cars at an ever increasing pace to catch the light, which when it turned red didn't stop his forward and wayward and ever increasing speed ~ squealling and leaving more rubber and smoke he disappeared under an overpass... First thought ~ "What is he trying to prove?" ~ and then I remembered this thread...
appologies steve... i didn't mean famous by the word notable. i was trying to draw attention to the word exceptions by saying that was notable. it was early when i posted it!!!
as ceolachan touched on, it's not so much a question of speed but really articulation. if articulation is poor, it will sound pretty bad.
also, something which wasn't touched on in this thread and what's worth taking note of is that each tune differs in the amound of material in it. some tunes like the green fields of antrim aka trippin' down the stairs has very little material in it, so i would justify playing it faster. other tunes, most notably paddy fahey tunes, there's little repitition in them and they're melodically very rich so yeah, they can be played too fast.
largely: playing fast emphasises rhythm, pulse and fast and playing slower emphasises melody. swing, i regard as a different thing altogether. of course this is only when it's well executed.
Martin t wrote a bundle of polarizing, projecting opinions. I wondered for a while if it was a spoof. However, I forgive him because he did say:
"i've tried to write this as subjectively as possible"
... and I think you succeeded there magnificently Martin.
Martin t wrote "Ive tried to write this as subjectively as possible because outside of personal opinion I think this is how the topic should be viewed." Martin must have meant "objectively", otherwise that sentence wouldn't have made sense.
Ah but ~ I would have more respect for the 'subjective', as the 'objective' always carries pretense with it, for one, that 'objectivity' can actually exist at all... The nuances of language and our own weakness for our own opinions kind of disallows that. The only objective truth, if it can be said, is where everything is on the table and blatant ~ not pretending to be 'learned' and based on some inflexible 'truth'... This always gets us into trouble...
Ouch! ~ stop yanking my chain...
Sorry guys, I'm with whats-his-face, who was speaking earlier, what does he call himself here, oh yeah, Dow. He's got me on a choker chain. Ouch! Ease up already. Anyway, we're looking for a pit fight and he's promised me doggie treats if I bite the leg off of something...
In terms of what's the right speed - well, is it dancable? Anyone who can't play fast enough for people with a resonable experience of dancing to dance it shouldn't play the "that's too fast" card, simple as.
There's the subjective point of view; I know how fast I like my tunes to sound, or more to the point, how "rushed" I like them to sound. There's something nice about a hornpipe with played slow with tons of swing & rubato but I'm not sure I'd like my reels played the same. Depending on how you're used to hearning a tune affects whether it seems to fast or slow too.
Dance! Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah ~ you'd have to be there, anyway, dancers can be tyrannical too, and they have demanded every extreme imaginable ~ nag, nag, nag ~
"It's too fast!"
"It's too slow!"
"That's not the tune we dance it to!" ~ Huff and puff and blow the house down... Phew! Who winds these folks up anyway?
Um, did anyone notice that someone said earlier "thankfully there are enough quality musicians on the scene to stop the likes of such fast players as Martin Tourish from changing the tradition of our music". Either this is someone who knows MT very well and it's friendly slagging, or it's, erm, not. Then, when MT replies, people complain that he's being too subjective?! MT bb was playing some stuff of yours the other day - it's fantastic. I hope you manage to change the tradition of our music for the better.
MT's position boiled down to:
A) Here's one set of views - bad
B) Here's another set - his - good
C) People either fall into camp A (the mediocre, negative, hostile camp, in his terms) or camp B (the appreciative, musical ones who have found a truth).
I missed the bit where he provided any evidence for his claim that people are split in that way.
Now regardless of what you think about speed (and as you know I have now adopted the motto "Up Speed, Up Speed, Ra Ra Ra") his argument is monemental in it's stupidity. It's a version of "If you're not for me you are against me" beloved of Nornirn politicians of both stripes not to mention sectarian strifers all around the world.
And remember it was he who said "i've tried to write this as subjectively as possible". I also note from his comment that "we CAN ... hear all the notes" that he *does* know where the shift key is!
Note that I am making no serious comment on the speed issue, nor am I making any judgement of MT's musical talent or skill.
Martin, if you want to write polemical pieces, you should switch your brain on first.
I just read MT's post again, and the way it reads to me is like this: there are 2 groups of people - 1) D1ckheads who pretend to be able to play but actually can't and so join comhaltas and shout their mouth off criticising others because they want others to think they are knowledgeable and pure drop and can play, even though they can't play for sh1te, and 2) the rest of us, who play because we enjoy the music and may or may not play fast (notice he said "open" to playing fast).
Could be wrong but that's how it reads to me - the style is just less direct than I wrote it.
Yeah - what Lizzy says. I'm always amazed at how fast some favorite recording actually are, when it feels like they're playing at a very relaxed pace. I'm thinking of the Verena Commins & Julie langan CD, Fonnchaoi.
The musicians I know locally who can play fast and accurately, and with imagination, have one thing in common - they all play, or have played, in bands. It may well be a case of the bands attracting those who can already play fast and accurately, but I know from my own experience that if you get the opportunity to join in with a ceili band playing for set dancers as one of the "and friends" it improves your playing all round; you quickly get to know what speed combined with accuracy is all about.
I also have the slightly weird experience (in a ceili band) of playing tunes, at speed and on the hoof, tunes which I've never come across before. It's a bit like good sight-reading from the dots - without the dots - but doing it entirely by ear in real time. It's a great help if you don't try to think when playing for the dancers - not that you have any time to do so anyway. Just watch them and keep an eye on the band leader. The whole experience is quite unlike playing in a session.
I must make it clear that I am nowhere in the same league as those musicians I've referred to.
ha! i should write shorter posts in future if they're to be summerised by the dot or dow! why is such negativity taken out of my discription of the first group? i don't consider being technically or imaginatively mediocre as a bad thing... it's normal.. it's much more unusual to have someone wow you by their imaginative and technical qualities. as described in the comhaltas article, to be technically adroit can be taken as a very bad thing also. but i didn't want what i wrote to be interpreted, but rather taken literally.
important point is that i tried to present those points NEUTRALY. of course there was the odd opinion but how anyone could attach the word d1ckhead to it or label it as bad is really missing the point of what, yes, may have been a poorly written article... but hey, mr dot, you don't knock me for my writting skills and i'll not knock you for this.
Martin,
Please read.
1) It was not me but Dow who used the word D1ckhead
2) He did not use it to refer to you
You say "i tried to present those points NEUTRALY". You failed. You wrote, as you said, a highly subjective piece.
You also claimed that people fall into two camps. Do you have any evidence to support that?
And your problem with the shift key is what?
But they are not well-reasoned. The idea that people fall into those two camps is bizarre. The suggestion that calling people "mediocre" is not a criticism is odd. The fact that he does not bother with the shift key is a matter of choice - I have not picked over errors in grammar or spelling. It is not true that anybody, even he who wrote the word in his message, suggested that Martin is a d1ckhead.
I ask again what evidence there may be that people can be classed as described. Is there any?
Since beebs solicited, "Who is this Wayne Webster anyway...is he a musician? " I'll share what I know about Wayne Webster.
He happened upon our session one night years ago, and is a good guy. He is a retired schoolteacher. He may not be a world-beater with the fiddle, but he's no slouch, either. He is heavily influenced by his favorite player, Martin Hayes, and has studied under Brian Conway and Patrick Ourceau.
Personally, on that evening I was probably about a first or second year flute player. After the session was over he kindly spent some time with me helping me improve the style of my playing, and even taught me a tune.
So, yes, he is a musician -- good and knowledgeable. I remember him for his kindness and generosity of his time.
I thought this thread had died (it probably has outlived itself), but for the sake of not leaving, I hope, any hard feelings I just want to re-emphasize that I am not suggesting any criticism at all of MT's music. Though I know who he is, I haven't heard what he does (how about getting a clip up on youtube or on your myspace page, Martin?). In any case, my point has nothing at all to do with how good he may be, let alone how much more proficient he surely is than someone like myself.
I also am well aware that people have different attitudes to speed, technical proficiency, Comhaltas and everything else.
What I *do* think is silly, and this is the one thing I really did want to have a go at, is the idea of dividing the people interested in ITM in its many forms into two camps: in one corner the slow, CCE-supporting, technically/imaginatively mediocre (or now "normal") group, and in the other corner those who are open to speed, play a lot, are appreciative of the music and have found a truth.
(Old joke warning
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who think that there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don't.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
(End OJ)
Paddy, If you think mediocre is too harsh a word, you need to develop a thicker skin. I enjoy the heck out of this music, play it a lot, but freely admit that I fall into the mediocre category. Half of the people in the world are below average, and nothing will ever change that!!!!!
Martin t- If you notice that the slags about Donal, John Mc etc were done by us (me, Dow, Sirnose and late in the evening)- ie .....if you look in my bio you will see that they are listed as my favourite muscians - we were actually being sarcastic and we actually all love those musicians.
For information, Charles/Paddy McG/i/. and others, Martin is a totally brilliant musician and extremely well-informed/knowledgeable young fella. He's also a really nice guy. I think you need to read his posts here with a flexible attitude of mind. I think you'll find that he's trying to convey more than he actually puts in words, so take them *exactly* at face value, and you won't get what he really means ... and I say that *despite* the fact that he says he wanted to be taken literally - personally, I wouldn't take that comment literally
Just my opinion - feel free to contradict, Martin!
Surely nobody, in their right mind, could believe for one moment that the likes of Tommy Peopls, Paddy Keenan, Matt Molloy, Padraig Rynne, John McSherry and Donal O'Connor play *too* fast! - Do they? Och that's just plain silly!
Let's be honest here, those guys all have the technical ability to play at whatever speed they like - simply because they have all *mastered* their chosen instrument .... & Irish Music.
Personally, I prefer to play at a more relaxed pace & would rather listen to, & play music that isn't quite so hectic, but that's just me, quite simply because there is no way I could keep up with those guys! However, that doesn't stop me enjoying myself when I listen to them play, in small dozes, & I would certainly never deny them their right to play at whatever speed they wanted to.
I well remember the night Paul Bradley, Padraig Rhynne & Paul Meehan came to my wee Folk Club up here - the music SCARY, it was that good! Absolutely Brilliant. Gerry & Donal also played the club & those were two of the best ITM nights we had!
To my mind, speed is only given a bad reputation by those who only think they can play fast!
Speed Kills
Speed Kills
(Oldie but goodie, Summer 2002)
http://stage.comhaltas.com/music/treoir/detail/speed_kills/
Speed Kills
By Wayne Webster
In a business world there’s a phenomenon known as the Peter Principle: employees rise to the level of their incompetence. If you are good at your job you will keep getting promoted to jobs requiring higher levels of expertise and responsibility until you reach a position that exceeds the level of your competence, and there you will remain, one step beyond your optimum performance level.
The Peter Principle is rampant these days in the choice of tempo in much of the playing of Irish traditional music. Usually when you try to play as fast as you can, as so many are wont to do, you don’t know what that tempo is until you have exceeded it. People usually end up playing as fast as they can’t, playing just beyond the speed their ability to play cleanly, with expression and sensivity will allow, the Peter Principle.
Maybe the notion that faster is better has to do with the fast pace of modern life. Maybe trad players feel they compete with rock and roll, that speed equals energy and excitement. Whatever, most of the top Irish traditional bands play reels and jigs on their CD’s and in concerts at a blazing tempo. Even with the astounding skill and mastery at which they play, there is a cost to the integrity and inherent beauty of the tunes themselves. Impressive to the listener at first and for awhile, lickity-split playing eventually becomes tiring to the audience. The listener’s ear eventually becomes inured to the din. How many times have you heard your non-trad friends say that all Irish tunes sound the same?
These speed demons are role models for average to advanced session players who listen to, and learn tunes off of these CD’s, often feeling obliged to match a pace they can never hope to handle with the mastery a more leisurely perspective could achieve. Ornaments get left out, or worse, sluffed over. Lilt, accents, dynamics and all the things that contribute to the personality of a tune, its soul, is sacrificed at the altar of the demon speed. Sessions turn into track meets.
The fabulous and renowned layed-back playing Mayo/New York boxer, flutist, Dermott ‘Darby’ Grogan, first made me aware of this situation as not merely a quantitative problem but, indeed, a qualitative one. I’d previously laboured under the illusion that speed was a relative thing, a matter of artistic choice. I knew I had grown musically to the point where I preferred the more leisurely layed-back approach of the Martin Hayeses, Kevin Burkes and Óisin Mac Diarmadas, but suspected my inability to cleanly handle the break-neck pace set by many of the young bucks at Manhattan sessions to be the real cause of my preference, a form of sour grapeism to be sure. Darby labours under no such insecurity. To him it’s not just a matter of preference, there is a right and a wrong way to play traditional Irish music, and hyper-attenuated speed-balling is nothing more than ‘pure s…..e’. There isn’t a nicer guy in all New York Irish musicdom, so it was very refreshing to hear such ‘un PC’ candour from one so respected. The trad scholar Don Meade and virtuoso fiddler Brian Conway also of New York have echoed these sentiments, yet the speeders abound from sea to shining sea and beyond. Let the message go out; let the debate begin.
I mean really, shouldn’t a three hour session be more like a marathon than a succession of sprints? Like in a marathon you might want to kick it near the end, just for kicks. But if you start out lickity-split from the beginning, you’ll have nowhere to go by the end, except home alone, as your audience most likely, will be worn out and long gone.
The fine New York fiddler Patrick Ourceau once told me that the musician should be playing in service of the tune and not the other way around. The very talented Ray Coen of Sligo told me that the highest compliment a player can receive is, what a lovely tune, not, what an impressive talent you are. In other words, the tune isn’t a vehicle for the player to impress the audience with his virtuosity but rather the players virtuosity is a vehicle to impress the audience with the beauty of the tune.
Playing for speed and not taking the time to find the individual personality that each of these tunes possesses by patiently exploring the landscape of a melody like a hiker traversing the hills, valleys and plateaux of the countryside is killing the soul of traditional music much like ATV’s, dirt bikes and snow mobiles are killing the environment. So please, slow down and smell the noises.
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Speed Kills
I like that:
"In other words, the tune isn’t a vehicle for the player to impress the audience with his virtuosity but rather the players virtuosity is a vehicle to impress the audience with the beauty of the tune."
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Speed Kills
I so agree with this.
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by morning star
Re: Speed Kills
An excellent, measured article. We could start a bad-boy list of culprits. Unfortunately, you could go back a long way. Some of those ol' boys who made 78s in the USof A in the twenties went like the clappers. Maybe they were trying to squeeze their tunes in to fit the four minute format of 78s, or maybe I'm being charitable. I won't play any faster than I want to these days. I get the odd raised eyebrow when I refuse to partake in a set that I just know is going to go like a bat out of hell. No point to it.
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
Yawn......not this again. Who is this Wayne Webster anyway...is he a musician? And what is this speed is a way to prove that you a virtuoso bollicks - I mean for god sakes! Ive only heard one musician in that whole list he intervied and while I though he was ok - nothing special -
Someone better go tell Tommy Peoples to slow down cause he plays faster that Martin Hayes and apparently some guy who lives in America thinks that bad.....Oh My god - I'm sure he'll be heartbroken....
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
I think it's OK to rehash topics on forums like this every now and again. Different people, different opinions and I love to read 'em all. You don't have to click the topic!
Lovely set of tunes and great playing there on Youtube, bb. You lot knock spots off our Cornwall fiddle players and where can I get a guitar player as good as her! All you lack is a harmonica player y'know!
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
Katiebee is a great player - and Ado is in the same band (the same as Sirnose - you can check them out here http://www.thepuredrop.com.au/video/skye.htm
The only thing is this over opintionated self inflated kind of ego, journalistic crap. Thats why I asked - who is this wayne webster - can he play?
"I play slow because I was talking to Dermott Grogan and he said it was ok" (imagine Cartmans voice)
Its like that fabulous article in treior that wants all backers basically banned from playing in sessions. Where do they get these people from? That really is what my problem is - not the Topic - its the actual article.
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
Bridie it's important that we slow people down while we can and stop the Padraig Rynne's, Brian Duke's, John McSherry's and Donal O'Connor's of the world from inflicting a slow painful death on traditional music. If only these heathen could have a fraction of the respect and kid gloves approach to trad as their (apparently) infinitely more enlightened american bretheren
For the record i've heard (and in all honesty played) tunes really badly rendered at all speeds. The same as the argument about methods of learning tunes, I don't think it's at all reasonable to suggest that playing between a certain bpm range guarauntees good music. P.s. I'd love to see that guy tell Seamus Tansey to slow down because Darby Grogan from New York said he's playing outside tempos that are acceptable for traditional music. Got bloodbath?? 
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: Speed Kills
I cant beleive you just called me Bridie online - its beebs. God - you'll blow my cover and then I'll get into trouble with the speed mafia for slagging of Dermott Grogan and Wayne Webster!
And as for Padraig and Brian, John and Donal - it amazes me they even dare record...Its quite obvious that they have no clue about tunes and that they also cant play.....how embarrassing for them....
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
How are we to do this, though, Ben? Are we to punish them in some way for playing too fast? Maybe we should appoint people with cattle prods to help the Padraig Rynnes, Brian Dukes, John McSherrys and Donal O'Connors of the world realise that they should be slowing down - DZZZZZZT tha'll teachya ya lil fecker.
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
"And as for Padraig and Brian, John and Donal - it amazes me they even dare record...Its quite obvious that they have no clue about tunes and that they also cant play.....how embarrassing for them...."
Word. I swear I'd be embarrassed ever to be seen or heard to be playing that fast and that well. They should be ashamed of themselves.
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
Bridie I'm going back to bed this website's doing my head in... 'night.
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
I know. The ability to play curly Gminor tunes on flute is a rare and horrible disease. As far a controlling the problem goes, i'm seeing some sort of lepper colony maybe
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: Speed Kills
It can be called "Comhaltas Camp" it'll be on some deserted island - we can send all those crap musicians who dare to play about 70bmps and all those crap backers as well - like Paul Meehan, John Doyle and Sirnose there as well. Have fun Sirnose -send me a postcard - make sure you sterilise it first though.
# Posted on March 27th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
um, is it just me or did that article actually contain a real life "to be sure"..?
see, the yanks ARE more irish than the Irish!
(mind you, that's better than us aussies - all we can manage is to be more english than the Irish... Though with the rapid americanization of Aussieland, maybe we'll end up being more 'Merican than the American's and THEREFORE.... more Irish than the more-irish-than-the-irish american's!!! See, don't lose hope Aussie's, we'll win in the end!!!!!!!!!!.......)
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
i couldn't agree more. i recently read a comment saying that liam o connor is the best accordian player around because they've never seen someone play so fast!!! if this is peoples perception then i agree with you wayne. thankfully there are enough quality musicians on the scene to stop the likes of such fast players as martin tourish from changing the tradition of our music
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by trad!
Re: Speed Kills
Yes Trad! God you are so clever - why dont you just slag someone off personally and have nothing whatsover in your bio. Wow - I wish I was as clever as you.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
on a more serious note in relation to the article, this guy should try playing for dancers... Two figures for your average set dancers'll make you play faster than you thought possible or, indeed, reasonable. But then again, maybe Mr. Webster isn't talking about Dance music, but the highly-evolved americo-Irish music that has sagely disassociated itself from the general unpleasantness of dancing.
(sorry, I don't mean to be so flippant but this is SUCH a silly article, I can't beleive i wasted the time reading the whole Bl**dy thing!!! grrr.)
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
I totally support anybody who wants to play as fast as they like, certainly much faster than I'm ever likely to be able to.
It's a pity it bores people and makes them say that everything just sounds like the same old fecking diddlydiddlydiddlydee. I tell them they should take up the pipes, fiddle or at least the bodhran, and when they can play really really fast they will then have a right to an opinion, but by that time they will like it!
Until then they should keep their opinions to themselves, spoilsports that they are, and spend time listening in awe to reels played at 140 bpm, reels played 150 bpm, reels played at 160 bpm... There's variety for ye! The sky's the limit, lads! Who dares, wins!
Up speed! Up speed! Up speed!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
I totally support anybody who wants to play as fast as they like also -as long as they overheat and spontaneously combust right in front of me. Blazing fiddles and accordions indeed. Har f\/kken Har!!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Speed Kills
i couldn't agree more with swfl's opener, at least as to my own taste. i have taped on my wall an excerpt of an interview with mr. ourceau saying he refuses to give in to the speed thing [ and in a ceili setting, the guy can for sure play fast]. it is next to a clip from mike rafferty who is adamant on this point [i have seen him and mary rafferty playing very fast for dance also]. for me, it is indeed qualitative in a deep aesthetic sense, although i practice faster because i too wish to become a good dance player.
but it is also objective fact that some of the most traditional players have been super-fast. michael coleman. tommy peoples. matt molloy---not at all my style, but these are hardcore tradition bearers.
i don't think the problem is an absolute of speed being bad. the problem is this hegemony that seems to have taken over of contempt and musical fascism by idiots who don't understand that hyper-speed is not the "only" and "best" standard. it is that kind of ignorant doltishness, not fast playing in and of itself, that makes me sick. there are people in my city who don't know anything but the speed demon hall o' fame, and they have contempt for anything else. they don't know, and could care less, about....willy clancy, joe ryan, paddy carty, etc, and consign any playing of that type to the trash heap. to me, that is the problem, not fast playing per se.....
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Speed Kills
De gustibus, etc. One could draw parallels to eating, sex, or other activities of sensual pleasure along with music. If it goes too fast, who can savor? Not I, sez this old duck.
Terry
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by twildman
Re: Speed Kills
If it to fast for dancing then in my opinion its too fast . Who ever starts a tune at a session should dictate the pace fast or slow.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Saint
Re: Speed Kills
Much like the ignorant doltishness that equates the slow-conteplative Mr. Hayes, the 'mystic east-clare' bollox' Kevin burke, Micho Russell etc, with being the only true 'soul' of irish music.
fellas, it's ALL good!!!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
sez me to ceemonster - sorry for the cross-post!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
I preferred the more leisurely layed-back approach of the Martin Hayeses, Kevin Burkes
Kevin Burke LEISURELY I don t know about that.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Saint
Re: Speed Kills
But people who play fast mostly arent ignorant or fasciast - they just like a different style of music, the Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloys, Liz Dohertys etc of the world. Thats what annoys about this article - its one sided completely - its biased and judgemental and obvious that this guy couldnt cut it as a musician so spends his time writing stupid articles about things he obviously knows nothing about!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
bb spot on .Mairtin O Conner clips along
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Saint
Re: Speed Kills
It is all good if it's what you like. I hate superspeed meself, but if you like it go for it say I. But I'm not having it in our session (i.e. I won't go along with it, not that I have much say!) because I have no wish to ditch all the charm of the music (or all my ornamentation) for the sake of going like the clappers and managing to keep up and no more, and the other blokes are as bad as I am at speed. A different set of players might be more adept than us at carrying it off at speed, so good luck. It's just that I may find myself decamping into the jukebox bar when I hear it, that's all.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
It's funny. The bulk of these threads on right vs wrong and good vs bad all originate with someone making assertions as to objective criteria and then wind up with everyone pack pedalling into "oh it's just not my thing". Perhaps if you approached it in this way in the first place you p#ss so many people of or continually highlight your own stupidity. Not singling out anyone in particular here, just a small observation. The fact is that music is a highly subjective art form and it is fierce difficult to set down any kind of criteria for good versus bad on issues of interpretation (speed etc). Obviously form a technique stand point it is much easier to apply said criteria, but trying to do it when discussing these sorts of issues is a waste of time. IMHO.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: Speed Kills
Everyones idea of speed is different anyway...what I think is medium paces some may find really fast and what I think it slow some might find a lovely cracking pace....its all personal opinion really...
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
I hope you weren't reading my post as back-pedalling, Mr Evening. I have firm views on this that I don't waver from when it comes to my own circumstances. It's just that speed is out there big-time and you either live with it or lump it. You can't ban it any more than a pure-drop freak could ban Irish supergroups. But it is good to talk about it. I'm listening.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
I could have sworn i said i wasn't referring to anyone in particular
I just find it interesting that no matter how many times it's proven to be impossible people on this site still seem determined to come up with some kind of trad rule book, strict adherence to which will result in the ultimate pure drop super hero. It's laughable really.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: Speed Kills
Oh, I agree with that. Amen.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
beebs commented:
"and obvious that this guy couldnt cut it as a musician so spends his time writing stupid articles about things he obviously knows nothing about!"
I like your measured and careful tone, especially the way you avoid commenting on things that would take mind-reading or clairvoyance to know. Like me, really.
Up speed! Up speed! Up speed!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
There's a handful of musicians who can still sound musical above about 120 bpm for reels. In that category, I'd put Tommy Peoples, Liz Carroll, Liz Doherty, Joe Derrane, Frankie Gavin, Sean McGuire, Brian Conway, Johnny Doherty, and maybe another half dozen. They can do whatever they want to and I'll appreciate it. Almost everybody else I've ever heard play that fast loses me. I can't listen that fast. I can't even decide whether or not I recognize the tune.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Speed Kills
I love the fast tune, but when all of them are played at the same, relentless pace (often far above what many of the participants can really handle) then it gets boring quickly an unmusical race to the finish. And when hornpipes get the same, flat-out flat treatment, it just sounds like gibberish.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Speed Kills
Yes - I thought it was very measured actually Alex - you should hear what I really think!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
Dare I?
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
Probably not alex.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: Speed Kills
I totally agree with the premise of this, although I think everyone has their own definition of "too fast". Too fast is when the tune is lost. As my dear late friend Paul Wilkins used to bawldly ask people who played so fast that the tune turned into a garbled mess, "why do you hate the music so much?!!" A little tongue-in-cheek, admittedly, but not entirely.
For me, it's not actually about beats per second, but rather the space inbetween the notes. That sounds a little pretentious, but hopefully ye'll get what I mean...It's totally possible to play at what is actually breakneck speed while retaining total control and with the tune coming across completely clearly. Take Dervish for example, they play wild fast but you almost wouldn't know it from their records unless you actually sit down and try and play along with it. Same with loads of other musicians, as have already been pointed out here.
It's not about conventional definitions of 'fast' and 'slow', it's the space between the notes that matters!!!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Lizzy
Re: Speed Kills
"People usually end up playing as fast as they can’t, playing just beyond the speed their ability to play cleanly, ..."
There's the crux of the article, as I read it.
I don't see Mr. Webster talking about musicians that play as fast as they CAN (e.g., Tommy Peoples, Martin Hayes, et. al.). The way I read this, the author is bothered by those folks that "play as fast as they can't"... you know, those that think they CAN play as fast as the great ones.... until the wheels come off.
8^)
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by brianc
Re: Speed Kills
This Webster fellow isn't going to change anyone's opinion. Fortunately, there's room enough in this world for any one of us to play at whatever tempo suits us. Nobody puts a gun to our head & demands that you play at one particular speed. If you don't like the general speed at one session, start or find a different session, I say.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by morning star
Re: Speed Kills
"It's totally possible to play at what is actually breakneck speed while retaining total control and with the tune coming across completely clearly."
-- Lizzy
I agree with this completely, and I think that's what the article's author is trying to say here as well.
Some of the best fiddling I've heard is on Martin Hayes' "Live in San Francisco" CD -- there's one set I think it start's with the Carraroe Jig - it's incredibly well done - and played VERY slowly... later in the same CD, it's Martin doing what he does best, hair's on fire, going wildly at the tune.... but when HE plays fast, he's mastered that 'space between the notes' and plays wonderfully both at fast tempos and slow.
Sadly, there are far too many that THINK they can play fast without crushing the tune. One of my own worst habits is playing too fast - and at uneven tempos through a tune. Only recently I started using a metronome, and I was surprised how fast I was playing some tunes. So the next step was to record myself. What an eye opener that was!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by brianc
Re: Speed Kills
Yes, I too have been guilty of starting a tune too fast for myself.
It's not exactly like having a gun to my head......... but there's that peer pressure to play faster, I think. It's good to be aware of it, I think.
People who play well at their chosen (high) speed have the freedom to pretty much laugh at this 'Speed Kills' journalism.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by morning star
Re: Speed Kills
I thought kevin burke was fairly lively . Is he?
Im not a fan of metronomes anyway at the end of the day its all about quality whatever the speed
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Saint
Re: Speed Kills
"I knew I had grown musically to the point where I preferred the more leisurely layed-back approach of the Martin Hayeses, Kevin Burkes and Óisin Mac Diarmadas..."
Grown musically?!
Ah, so Tommy Peoples is kids' stuff. Wow, I'm lapping this up. Wayne Webster must be the ITM equivalent of Yoda by now. I wonder if he can make instruments play themselves using the Force.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
"The fabulous and renowned layed-back playing Mayo/New York boxer, flutist, Dermott ‘Darby’ Grogan, first made me aware of this situation..."
"The fine New York fiddler Patrick Ourceau once told me that..."
A fine namedropper too. Someone invite him over to thesession.org - he'd fit right in.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
hehe, the yoda of trad:
Weak in the spirit fast players are! Slow in the Tunes you must be and feel the soul of the music strong you will.
Feeling a grave disturbance in the trad i am!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
Anyhow - Patrick Ourceau is French. Me and Sirnose lived in Galway - does that mean I am a Galway fiddle player and Sirnose a Galway Flute player?
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
No no it's ok Beebs, because there are green fields and mountains and clear streams in France too, and also old women in shawls and lowing cattle and songbirds in the trees, so he should pass thesession.org test from the board of clueless tw@ts.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvschhhhhhhhzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzoowwwwwwwww!!
feel the mighty power of the flute-shaped light-saber!!!!
(if dow is C3PO, does that make his concertina R2D2?)
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
(coz it certainly squawks like R2D2!!)
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
I dunno but olli is definately Chewbacca. AAAAOOORRRAAWWWW-- like
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: Speed Kills
SirNose at least I don't have a flute that whinges like Luke Skywalker!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
Ahhh Olli, the Tune-inator...
"I'll be back. like."
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
come with me if you want to live....like
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: Speed Kills
Wow dow, you must be psychic! It was just the other day my flute was telling me about this time he almost got it on with this chick-flute, a bizarre high end model with these strange bun-shaped keys on either side of her head(joint). Lucky he didn't crank it up though coz it ended up that my flute and bun-head were actually brother and sister!!! (shock!) they were both the children of an evil big-bored german-model blackwood jobby, with black enamel keys and a penchant for dark-sounding marches...
(P.S. this is NOT an excuse to start playing that feck'n annoying 'skywalker' jig the tune-inator insisted on playing every session a few years back!)
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by SirNose
Re: Speed Kills
I wonder when this penchant for fast playing started. I mentioned that superspeed on some old 20s 78s so it isn't recent. Maybe someone more scholarly than I can find a speed rant somewhere from the 19th century! Altan (whom I love to bits) can play pretty fast, and just listen to early 4 Men (Mr Hayden) and De Dannan (Mr Gavin). Yet there are other groups such as Planxty and Patrick Street who nearly always play(ed) at a more measured tempo. It's a matter of opinion, but of the ones I've mentioned only Planxty habitually played at what might be termed typical session speed (I know, I know...) and they have had some stick (not from me) for being "plodding." Listening to it live in a session is one thing, repeated listening to a CD is another altogether. Herein lies a possible thing. A supergroup can hardly, they may be thinking, just stand up there on stage and play reel after reel after jig at "sensible session speed." They have to put on a show after all, and, among a lot of other means of bringing variety to the act, they will want to show off their prowess and that may well include virtuosic displays of very fast playing. Gets a big cheer innit. So we have these role models who play superfast and that invites emulation and so it goes on. End of entirely meaningless and ramblingly pointless musing.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
...until your next post, that is.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
Uncalled for. Watch out, I'm building affection around here. Take a couple of paraectamol for the headache.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
As I can't spell it, make it three asperin. Oh, bugger...
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
aspirin
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Speed Kills
Thanks. You're a great help to us aspiring spellars.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
Can I have an aspirin too - this thread has given me a headache
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by domhnall.
Re: Speed Kills/ ignorance lives
this is an easy topic to get heated over but no point in that. opinions are opinions and while i could say, oh ye're all horribly wrong, i think that would be just adding to this squabble of ignorance and negativity. this discussion, i think is not really about speed but rather about the values people hold in the music.
my take on it is that in this genre of music there are two camps:
the first has the characteristics of being; against what they percieve as 'speed', involved in comhaltas, and largely, although with *notable exceptions*, technically and/ or imaginativley medicore. the primary concern of this group as i read in a comhaltas document is the concept of identity. that's why we see such loyalty to the utopian goal of pure traditional music.
the second camp is open to faster playing, primarily because they are able to, it's simple to them, they/ we CAN (contrary to myth) hear all the notes, and appreciate what is going on. an interesting characteristic of this group is that they undoubtetly play much more often that people from the first camp. and the important difference is that music is not played for identity. part of the reason for my belonging to the second camp is because i believe that identity should be the *result* of something you do.
to play music for extra musical reasons such as identity, *pure* comercialism, or your aunties 40th birthday party; is personally to me uncomfortable. it's like wearing tight shoes all day so you can have the pleasure of taking them of and saying you done it. a more acceptable comparison to both sides would have been lent!
i've tried to write this as subjectively as possible because outside of personal opinion i think this is how the topic should be viewed. my main observation about this post is that many people who belong to the first camp experience alot of negativity and hostility towards other musicians. this to me is the ultimate wrong. music to me should never eminate negativity. folk music is an expression of the people and to undermine some peoples expression can not be good.
as regards donal o connor and john mc sherry, i've just spent 20 days with their band in germany and i can tell you that the dedication, knowledge, musicality and soul they have in their music is really exceptional. to undermine this because of what what the rest of the herd in particular societies think is the critic losing out on a treasure that many other people have loved.
they, i, and many more don't care what people think of us because to us, we've found a truth. we smile and cry when we play music and if other people aren't as lucky as to have attained that, then i really think they shouldn't knock it. i'll let the final word go to one of the worlds greatest artists:
To regret one's own experiences is to arrest one's own development. To deny one's own experiences is to put a lie into the lips of one's life. It is no less than a denial of the soul.
live and let live.
Martin Tourish.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by martin t
Re: Speed Kills
Fair play Oscar.
It was a nice gig on Monday, by the way: I enjoyed it thoroughly. I'd say you weren't a pretty sight when you got to the airport?
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Dragut Reis
Re: Speed Kills
Martin, I think you''re right. The fastest players I know locally tend to be the technically most secure and the most imaginative. And you can hear everything they play.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Speed Kills
Wow!?
I had some suspicion this would get to the 'thee and thou' stage... & the force too? Is this animism? Thank the powers that be it is only pixels... I suspect all sane jurors have either made an excuse or escaped and it is left to ye solicitors all? I see the window was left open, I'm jumping too, just wanted to say ~ unnnh!, I think I feel a bit ill and aspirin ain't the cure...
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Speed Kills
Ahhh! ~ the cure is setting in...
I'm having a lovely day actually ~ and all morning I've been listening to fine music, all Irish, mostly fiddling, and quite a lot of Dale Russ... None of it is rushed, all of it has my feet and heart and soul dancing... Now that beats aspirin anyday and is all I need to settle the slight upset a small fraction of this thread caused. The quesiness is gone now, the headache subsided...
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Speed Kills
I agree with almost all the sentiments in your post, Martin, but you threw the baby out with the bathwater when you condemned the "first camp" as technically and/or imaginatively mediocre, apart from notable exceptions. This is self-evidently not the case. I can think of very many fine ITM musicians in the public eye who eschew "superspeed" and I know many fine players not in the public eye to whom it would not occur to play that way. Your statement contradicts slightly your laudable "live and let live" admonition at the end. You need to invent a third camp, methinks. A condition of belonging could be that those in it know nothing about, or simply ignore, Comhaltas. There are plenty of us around.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
What, you too Steve? I thought I was alone...
Hey, about the 78's, a bit of searching of the threads here will give you some revelations there, the nature of the beast...
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Putting aside my aversion for reverb ~ you blow a nice tune SS...
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Speed Kills
It wasn't my doing. I didn't think it was too bad...
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
Was it 'llig' who recently said that if it is comfortable, it is the right speed? I like to play fast sometimes and slow sometimes, to fit the mood, tune, etc. I tend to prefer a slower pace because it is personally more comfortable to me, but I don't condemn speedsters if they can handle the pace. But a whole album at breakneck speeds tends to make me jumpy, I will find another CD to listen to. People should mix it up a little, variety is the spice of life after all.
Has anyone else ever picked up an instrument to play along with a 'leisurely' tune on a CD, only to find that it moves at a pretty good clip? Some people's comfortable pace is pretty quick, and it can fool your ear.
The only time I dislike speed is when people's playing gets mushy as they play too fast for themselves (and trust me I have done this to myself), and also when one or two person's penchant for speed leaves others behind in a session, and destroys the cohesiveness of the group--takes the craic right out of the evening!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Speed Kills
This topic comes up endlessly and rightfully so as speed is one of the many facets along with poor tuning, lack of sensitivity, etc that can ruin traditional music. However, there are no simple answers as it's a complex question. Wayne Webster is 100% right and his Peter Principle analogy where people are promoted to their level of incompetency applies equally to aspiring musicians who try to play at speeds way beyond their ability level. On the other hand to say that speed in itself is a bad thing is not necessarily true as for example with the inspired playing of Tommy Peoples, it's the beauty of the music that one is conscious of and not the tempo.
For most musicians I'd agree with Michael that the speed where it feels comfortable is the right speed. As for listeners it's also a subjective thing and personally I'd much prefer the East Clare music, Joe Cooley, etc rather than De Dannan or some of that 1920s Sligo stuff (sorry some may consider this a bit blasphemous) played at 90 miles an hour.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Speed Kills
It is no surprise to me that when a musician is relaxed and the beat steady it can sound 'leisurely'. Just as true, when they can't hold it together and it wavers all over the place, faster for this bar or phrase, slower for that, or even wavering within a few notes ~ it can sound rushed and hurried ~ I meant HORRID!
I was out of the cage today, wondering around a 'city' would you believe, and I came across something similar. There was this cyclist, keeping a good pace, when out of a side street this impatient jerk squealed tires and cut across in front of him and then weaved in and out of and between other cars at an ever increasing pace to catch the light, which when it turned red didn't stop his forward and wayward and ever increasing speed ~ squealling and leaving more rubber and smoke he disappeared under an overpass... First thought ~ "What is he trying to prove?" ~ and then I remembered this thread...
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Speed Kills
If it's pure speed you want, try this
http://mm.classicalarchives.com/cgi-bin/n.cgi/vt4z8_3EUUi4ZSR560G-b8SQybc_t_5LpBZLUGuLMlw/Y7rZbF/014/ClassicalArchives_PAGANINI_MotoPerpetuo_Yashvili.wax
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Speed Kills
The TinyURL version of the cumbersome thing in my previous post is better: http://tinyurl.com/2bu9yf
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
The nature of 'speed'
appologies steve... i didn't mean famous by the word notable. i was trying to draw attention to the word exceptions by saying that was notable. it was early when i posted it!!!
as ceolachan touched on, it's not so much a question of speed but really articulation. if articulation is poor, it will sound pretty bad.
also, something which wasn't touched on in this thread and what's worth taking note of is that each tune differs in the amound of material in it. some tunes like the green fields of antrim aka trippin' down the stairs has very little material in it, so i would justify playing it faster. other tunes, most notably paddy fahey tunes, there's little repitition in them and they're melodically very rich so yeah, they can be played too fast.
largely: playing fast emphasises rhythm, pulse and fast and playing slower emphasises melody. swing, i regard as a different thing altogether. of course this is only when it's well executed.
martin.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by martin t
Re: Speed Kills
I appreciate your thoughtful posts, Martin. The world isn't black and white!
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
I don't think playing fast necessarily emphasises rhythm at all.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
Or even largely - sorry I misread.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
Martin t wrote a bundle of polarizing, projecting opinions. I wondered for a while if it was a spoof. However, I forgive him because he did say:
"i've tried to write this as subjectively as possible"
... and I think you succeeded there magnificently Martin.
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
Well I didn't agree with all he said as I indicated but fair dues to the man for providing food for thought eh?
# Posted on March 28th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Speed Kills
Martin t wrote "Ive tried to write this as subjectively as possible because outside of personal opinion I think this is how the topic should be viewed." Martin must have meant "objectively", otherwise that sentence wouldn't have made sense.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Speed Kills
Ah but ~ I would have more respect for the 'subjective', as the 'objective' always carries pretense with it, for one, that 'objectivity' can actually exist at all... The nuances of language and our own weakness for our own opinions kind of disallows that. The only objective truth, if it can be said, is where everything is on the table and blatant ~ not pretending to be 'learned' and based on some inflexible 'truth'... This always gets us into trouble...
Ouch! ~ stop yanking my chain...
Sorry guys, I'm with whats-his-face, who was speaking earlier, what does he call himself here, oh yeah, Dow. He's got me on a choker chain. Ouch! Ease up already. Anyway, we're looking for a pit fight and he's promised me doggie treats if I bite the leg off of something...
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Speed Kills
In terms of what's the right speed - well, is it dancable? Anyone who can't play fast enough for people with a resonable experience of dancing to dance it shouldn't play the "that's too fast" card, simple as.
There's the subjective point of view; I know how fast I like my tunes to sound, or more to the point, how "rushed" I like them to sound. There's something nice about a hornpipe with played slow with tons of swing & rubato but I'm not sure I'd like my reels played the same. Depending on how you're used to hearning a tune affects whether it seems to fast or slow too.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Andy V
"Food for thought!"
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Speed Kills
Dance! Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah ~ you'd have to be there, anyway, dancers can be tyrannical too, and they have demanded every extreme imaginable ~ nag, nag, nag ~
"It's too fast!"
"It's too slow!"
"That's not the tune we dance it to!" ~ Huff and puff and blow the house down... Phew! Who winds these folks up anyway?
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Speed Kills
Um, did anyone notice that someone said earlier "thankfully there are enough quality musicians on the scene to stop the likes of such fast players as Martin Tourish from changing the tradition of our music". Either this is someone who knows MT very well and it's friendly slagging, or it's, erm, not. Then, when MT replies, people complain that he's being too subjective?! MT bb was playing some stuff of yours the other day - it's fantastic. I hope you manage to change the tradition of our music for the better.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
MT's position boiled down to:
A) Here's one set of views - bad
B) Here's another set - his - good
C) People either fall into camp A (the mediocre, negative, hostile camp, in his terms) or camp B (the appreciative, musical ones who have found a truth).
I missed the bit where he provided any evidence for his claim that people are split in that way.
Now regardless of what you think about speed (and as you know I have now adopted the motto "Up Speed, Up Speed, Ra Ra Ra") his argument is monemental in it's stupidity. It's a version of "If you're not for me you are against me" beloved of Nornirn politicians of both stripes not to mention sectarian strifers all around the world.
And remember it was he who said "i've tried to write this as subjectively as possible". I also note from his comment that "we CAN ... hear all the notes" that he *does* know where the shift key is!
Note that I am making no serious comment on the speed issue, nor am I making any judgement of MT's musical talent or skill.
Martin, if you want to write polemical pieces, you should switch your brain on first.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
I just read MT's post again, and the way it reads to me is like this: there are 2 groups of people - 1) D1ckheads who pretend to be able to play but actually can't and so join comhaltas and shout their mouth off criticising others because they want others to think they are knowledgeable and pure drop and can play, even though they can't play for sh1te, and 2) the rest of us, who play because we enjoy the music and may or may not play fast (notice he said "open" to playing fast).
Could be wrong but that's how it reads to me - the style is just less direct than I wrote it.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Speed Kills
Yeah - what Lizzy says. I'm always amazed at how fast some favorite recording actually are, when it feels like they're playing at a very relaxed pace. I'm thinking of the Verena Commins & Julie langan CD, Fonnchaoi.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Speed Kills
Perhaps I should join Comhaltas after all.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
Actually nearly everything you say about groups 1 and 2 applies to me!
It's the false dichotomy that got me going.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
The musicians I know locally who can play fast and accurately, and with imagination, have one thing in common - they all play, or have played, in bands. It may well be a case of the bands attracting those who can already play fast and accurately, but I know from my own experience that if you get the opportunity to join in with a ceili band playing for set dancers as one of the "and friends" it improves your playing all round; you quickly get to know what speed combined with accuracy is all about.
I also have the slightly weird experience (in a ceili band) of playing tunes, at speed and on the hoof, tunes which I've never come across before. It's a bit like good sight-reading from the dots - without the dots - but doing it entirely by ear in real time. It's a great help if you don't try to think when playing for the dancers - not that you have any time to do so anyway. Just watch them and keep an eye on the band leader. The whole experience is quite unlike playing in a session.
I must make it clear that I am nowhere in the same league as those musicians I've referred to.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Speed Kills
ha! i should write shorter posts in future if they're to be summerised by the dot or dow! why is such negativity taken out of my discription of the first group? i don't consider being technically or imaginatively mediocre as a bad thing... it's normal.. it's much more unusual to have someone wow you by their imaginative and technical qualities. as described in the comhaltas article, to be technically adroit can be taken as a very bad thing also. but i didn't want what i wrote to be interpreted, but rather taken literally.
important point is that i tried to present those points NEUTRALY. of course there was the odd opinion but how anyone could attach the word d1ckhead to it or label it as bad is really missing the point of what, yes, may have been a poorly written article... but hey, mr dot, you don't knock me for my writting skills and i'll not knock you for this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNIg3wzkvhI
music is not about being negative, lets keep it that way and keep the discussions coming.
martin.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by martin t
Re: Speed Kills
Martin,
Please read.
1) It was not me but Dow who used the word D1ckhead
2) He did not use it to refer to you
You say "i tried to present those points NEUTRALY". You failed. You wrote, as you said, a highly subjective piece.
You also claimed that people fall into two camps. Do you have any evidence to support that?
And your problem with the shift key is what?
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
Now, mr "dot", don't be coming down on people who post well reasoned comments on this website--martin had some good and interesting things to say.
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Speed Kills
But they are not well-reasoned. The idea that people fall into those two camps is bizarre. The suggestion that calling people "mediocre" is not a criticism is odd. The fact that he does not bother with the shift key is a matter of choice - I have not picked over errors in grammar or spelling. It is not true that anybody, even he who wrote the word in his message, suggested that Martin is a d1ckhead.
I ask again what evidence there may be that people can be classed as described. Is there any?
# Posted on March 29th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
Since beebs solicited, "Who is this Wayne Webster anyway...is he a musician? " I'll share what I know about Wayne Webster.
He happened upon our session one night years ago, and is a good guy. He is a retired schoolteacher. He may not be a world-beater with the fiddle, but he's no slouch, either. He is heavily influenced by his favorite player, Martin Hayes, and has studied under Brian Conway and Patrick Ourceau.
Personally, on that evening I was probably about a first or second year flute player. After the session was over he kindly spent some time with me helping me improve the style of my playing, and even taught me a tune.
So, yes, he is a musician -- good and knowledgeable. I remember him for his kindness and generosity of his time.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by browndog
Re: Speed Kills
Good on you, browndog. A refreshing, smile-inducing post. He sounds like the sort we'd enjoy having join us at our local sesh.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Speed Kills
I thought this thread had died (it probably has outlived itself), but for the sake of not leaving, I hope, any hard feelings I just want to re-emphasize that I am not suggesting any criticism at all of MT's music. Though I know who he is, I haven't heard what he does (how about getting a clip up on youtube or on your myspace page, Martin?). In any case, my point has nothing at all to do with how good he may be, let alone how much more proficient he surely is than someone like myself.
I also am well aware that people have different attitudes to speed, technical proficiency, Comhaltas and everything else.
What I *do* think is silly, and this is the one thing I really did want to have a go at, is the idea of dividing the people interested in ITM in its many forms into two camps: in one corner the slow, CCE-supporting, technically/imaginatively mediocre (or now "normal") group, and in the other corner those who are open to speed, play a lot, are appreciative of the music and have found a truth.
(Old joke warning
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who think that there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don't.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
(End OJ)
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Speed Kills
Paddy, If you think mediocre is too harsh a word, you need to develop a thicker skin. I enjoy the heck out of this music, play it a lot, but freely admit that I fall into the mediocre category. Half of the people in the world are below average, and nothing will ever change that!!!!!
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Speed Kills
Martin t- If you notice that the slags about Donal, John Mc etc were done by us (me, Dow, Sirnose and late in the evening)- ie .....if you look in my bio you will see that they are listed as my favourite muscians - we were actually being sarcastic and we actually all love those musicians.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bb
Re: Speed Kills
For information, Charles/Paddy McG/i/. and others, Martin is a totally brilliant musician and extremely well-informed/knowledgeable young fella. He's also a really nice guy. I think you need to read his posts here with a flexible attitude of mind. I think you'll find that he's trying to convey more than he actually puts in words, so take them *exactly* at face value, and you won't get what he really means ... and I say that *despite* the fact that he says he wanted to be taken literally - personally, I wouldn't take that comment literally
Just my opinion - feel free to contradict, Martin!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Speed Kills
Surely nobody, in their right mind, could believe for one moment that the likes of Tommy Peopls, Paddy Keenan, Matt Molloy, Padraig Rynne, John McSherry and Donal O'Connor play *too* fast! - Do they? Och that's just plain silly!
Let's be honest here, those guys all have the technical ability to play at whatever speed they like - simply because they have all *mastered* their chosen instrument .... & Irish Music.
Personally, I prefer to play at a more relaxed pace & would rather listen to, & play music that isn't quite so hectic, but that's just me, quite simply because there is no way I could keep up with those guys! However, that doesn't stop me enjoying myself when I listen to them play, in small dozes, & I would certainly never deny them their right to play at whatever speed they wanted to.
I well remember the night Paul Bradley, Padraig Rhynne & Paul Meehan came to my wee Folk Club up here - the music SCARY, it was that good! Absolutely Brilliant. Gerry & Donal also played the club & those were two of the best ITM nights we had!
To my mind, speed is only given a bad reputation by those who only think they can play fast!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Ptarmigan