Forgive me if this has been asked recently (if so, I must have missed it), but what options are available in the case of recordings that have passed out of the world? If a book is out of print and entirely unavailable, I can go to a site like abebooks.com and discover used copies available, but is there anything like this for recordings?
I've been trying to find two records:
Mickey Doherty - The Gravel Walks
Danny O'Donnell - On TSean - Am Anall
In the case of the second, I had actually ordered it from Custy's, but they then told me that it was "unlikely ever to be printed again". Though I realize it must cost a lot to keep things in print, it saddens me that so many old respected recordings just vanish.
Is there something similar to abebooks.com for music?
I sympathize with your predicament. I get a steady stream of enquiries from people who've found my discography pages at http://www.irishmusicreview.com and are looking to find copies of old vinyl albums and out-of-print cassettes and CDs.
The Mickey Doherty cassettes were issued by Comhairle Bhéaloideas Éireann (The Irish Folklore Commission) in 1990 and are never likely to be re-released. However, since copyright (at least in Ireland and the UK) has expired on these recordings, made in 1949, the original tapes can be freely copied and distributed. I have the tapes, but, sadly, not the time to transcribe them to CD for you, but someone else might be able to do so.
The Danny O'Donnell CD was released by RTÉ and only had a small print run (probably no more than 1,000 copies). Frankly, RTÉ is abysmal in terms of keeping its recordings in print and, also, is sitting on a vast repository of unreleased and OOP gems. If you'd like to send me a PM about obtaining a copy of this album, please do so.
hoswshecutting.... i think they get "deleted". Often tossed in the dumpster too unfortunately, along with their removal from a catalog. Go dumpster diving! Sell them as 'rare', LOL!
Well, the term "fair use" in its modern sense really doesn't have much to do with copyright to most and more to do with practicality and common-sense morality.
I think there are two questions here. Is it a violation of copyright to make an unauthorized copy of an out-of-print recording that you do not own? The courts have consistently said that it is a violation and does not fall under "fair use."
Is this a reasonable restriction, considering that the recording is unavailable for purchase? Maybe, technically, but a lot of people (most?) feel it's unfair. It's also virtually unenforceable. So, obey the speed limit or get to the concert on time?
Bob..... technically it is a violation, but who will know if you don't tell. And honestly having worked at a record company, they don't worry about it much, in fact they expect it will be done pretty often and pay no attention. What they are more concerned with is if you re-issued it for sale in mass numbers and made a profit that should rightfully be theirs. What are they going to do really...hunt you down and hire lawyers for copying a few CDs for yourself? In fact one of my old jobs was handling getting coyrights for albums, and know what the issues are pretty well.
In some instances, for out of print or deleted titles, the copyright reverts to the creator (musicians generally) after a specified number of years and then they have the right to reproduce it. This is generally something spelled out in contracts. Rest assured though on pretty much any "creation" nowadays, someone holds a copyright whether registered or not. Just the act of creation gives a person a sort of common-law copyright that will stand up in court. Technically if they wanted to make a case out of you they could, but would they? Not for one off CDs. Even on my own CD, I have had someone buy one and turn to a friend and say "I'll make you a copy", right in front of me. What can I say or do really...If I tell them not to, they will anyway, even after saying they won't. I just can't think about it, most musicians know there will be a certain % of this done. It may not be right legally but it is done all the time. I choose to just focus on mass production and profiting off my work through unauthorized sales.
What I have always done.... and whoever wants to can come after me, if I get a CD I love, I make a copy for the car. I abuse CDs to death in my car, they fly all over, I change them and toss them on a seat, then groceries get on top, then they fall under the seat for a year etc. I am a total car slob, I don't want to ruin my CDs, or at least the original. So I copy literally everything I want to play in the car. That is a technical violation. Do they care? No,I used to even talk about it when I used to work at the recording company...no problem there, nor for any other employee. What I would never do is burn a bunch of copies and sell them to people for less for example.
I am a major fighter on copyright issues, being a visual artist by profession, I have had my work unlawfully reproduced more times than I can remember or count. I literally keep a form letter demanding licensing fees or a cease and desist on my computer and just change the names to suit the people. My work lends itself to being great for backgrounds and is used all the time, mostly legally thankfully!
These people are mass reproducing my work as backgrounds for packaging, advertisements etc. They are profiting on my creation.... it makes me crazy if they have not gotten my permission, and I react quite strongly, and have ultimately always won. Now if someone took my work, say a person like you, and liked it and wanted to xerox a copy for their own use, say to frame a picture or make a greeting card, or let their kids cut up...would I care.... no. What would be the point? I would have been a bit happier if you had bought two sheets of the decorative paper I make, but I wouldn't be surprised when you didn't, and wouldn't bother thinking about it. And I certainly wouldn't spend time and money hunting you down. If you mass reproduced it and were selling it, I would make your life very uncomfortable until you either paid me or stopped doing it.
So that's the real difference. If you want a copy of something for your own use, I think it's no problem, I do not think it's a reasonable restriction under "fair use", and I am one of the most rabid pro-copyright law people around. It is unenforceable and people do it all the time and they always will. It's called "Don't sweat the small stuff".... the big stuff, the fangs come out and I will go after anyone profiting on my work.
I'm not arguing one way or the other on whether to copy a friend's out-of-print CD. I'm just saying we should be aware, especially in a public forum, of the legal issue. The courts have said that it's "fair use" to make a copy of a CD to play in your car, but not fair use to copy a CD you don't own. Of course, everybody knows you'll never be held accountable for it.
Full disclosure:
I have a cassette tape of an old out-of-print LP that a friend made for me. Mea culpa, but I'd probably do it again if I rilly, rilly wanted the recording and couldn't find a used copy to buy.
I make sampler CD's for friends using copyrighted tracks. I don't copy entire CD's that are commercially available. If they want more of something, I give them the info or just buy them a copy.
I exceeded the speed limit this morning for a good thirty miles.
What about people taping radio programs.... I mean it really is too much. I think as long as we respect the artists and don't copy and sell their stuff, if we just make something for ourselves, why not. I can imagine if you wrote the artist and asked if you could do it, they'd think you were mad for asking. They'd appreciate it for sure.... but it would likely be a first!
We all do technically illegal things. I...perish the thought.... have started to refuse to recycle junk mail. It's so much, and I have to tie it up and drag it down to the road, which is a hike, and it hurts my hands and wrists, which are overused these days. I really resent junk mail. They use really nasty chemicals too in recycling paper, and make everyone think it's so "green" and pure. OK...that's off topic..... still I am a criminal as are you for speeding Bob!! Now go copy that CD. If you get arrested, just blame me! Anyway.... I will leave my "confessions" at that.... you don't want to hear the GOOD STUFF, LOL! Only Kidding!
Recording a radio (or TV) broadcast for private use is legal. The courts say that *does* fall under Fair Use. You just can't sell it or play it for an audience.
We really need clearer, more rational rules on this stuff. Rules that feel fair to most people. Right now, in the US anyway, we pay a small fee to the recording companies every time we buy most recordable media, under the assumption that some people will use them to illegally copy commercial recordings. A few cents from every music CD-R goes into to that pool. But, at the same time, we have the copyright laws telling us we *can't* copy the recordings.
The rules are quite unclear, Bob. I think the main thing is if you copy for personal use you can expect no problems even if it is on the shady side of legal. If you copy, reissue and sell without permission, could be a nightmare. I know I have made a few nightmares for people before they ultimately paid me. It depends too how agressive/mad the offended party is too.
I've often wondered where we stand with *legally* downloading music from the Internet and transferring it to CD. Should we really keep some "proof of purchase" from the online companies, i.e. print out or save this? Just in case, there was any dispute at a later date?
I've got quite a few of those now (Legally downloaded CDs) and they appear no different to "the naked eye" than those which I *may* have copied from a friend or the local music library. Not that I'd do such a thing, of course.
We live in interesting digital times and it's going to get even more interesting as the options keep multiplying. Maybe the music distribution system will evolve into something like public broadcasting in the US, where 20% of the users are willing to voluntarily pay enough to maintain the system.
out of print records
out of print records
Forgive me if this has been asked recently (if so, I must have missed it), but what options are available in the case of recordings that have passed out of the world? If a book is out of print and entirely unavailable, I can go to a site like abebooks.com and discover used copies available, but is there anything like this for recordings?
I've been trying to find two records:
Mickey Doherty - The Gravel Walks
Danny O'Donnell - On TSean - Am Anall
In the case of the second, I had actually ordered it from Custy's, but they then told me that it was "unlikely ever to be printed again". Though I realize it must cost a lot to keep things in print, it saddens me that so many old respected recordings just vanish.
Is there something similar to abebooks.com for music?
# Posted on March 21st 2007 by winterowl
Re: out of print records
I sympathize with your predicament. I get a steady stream of enquiries from people who've found my discography pages at http://www.irishmusicreview.com and are looking to find copies of old vinyl albums and out-of-print cassettes and CDs.
The Mickey Doherty cassettes were issued by Comhairle Bhéaloideas Éireann (The Irish Folklore Commission) in 1990 and are never likely to be re-released. However, since copyright (at least in Ireland and the UK) has expired on these recordings, made in 1949, the original tapes can be freely copied and distributed. I have the tapes, but, sadly, not the time to transcribe them to CD for you, but someone else might be able to do so.
The Danny O'Donnell CD was released by RTÉ and only had a small print run (probably no more than 1,000 copies). Frankly, RTÉ is abysmal in terms of keeping its recordings in print and, also, is sitting on a vast repository of unreleased and OOP gems. If you'd like to send me a PM about obtaining a copy of this album, please do so.
# Posted on March 21st 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: out of print records
Books go out of print. Records, I believe, get "diluted"
# Posted on March 22nd 2007 by howsshecutting
Re: out of print records
If you know someone who has an out-of-print CD, just copy it. It falls under fair use.
# Posted on March 22nd 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: out of print records
hoswshecutting.... i think they get "deleted". Often tossed in the dumpster too unfortunately, along with their removal from a catalog. Go dumpster diving! Sell them as 'rare', LOL!
# Posted on March 22nd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: out of print records
"If you know someone who has an out-of-print CD, just copy it. It falls under fair use."
In the US, at least, you'd be on very shaky legal ground. A work's being out of print has no bearing on the rights of the copyright holder.
# Posted on March 22nd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: out of print records
Well, the term "fair use" in its modern sense really doesn't have much to do with copyright to most and more to do with practicality and common-sense morality.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: out of print records
I think there are two questions here. Is it a violation of copyright to make an unauthorized copy of an out-of-print recording that you do not own? The courts have consistently said that it is a violation and does not fall under "fair use."
Is this a reasonable restriction, considering that the recording is unavailable for purchase? Maybe, technically, but a lot of people (most?) feel it's unfair. It's also virtually unenforceable. So, obey the speed limit or get to the concert on time?
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: out of print records
Or move to Canada and copy whatever you want with no consequences.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Splendid Isolation
Re: out of print records
Bob..... technically it is a violation, but who will know if you don't tell. And honestly having worked at a record company, they don't worry about it much, in fact they expect it will be done pretty often and pay no attention. What they are more concerned with is if you re-issued it for sale in mass numbers and made a profit that should rightfully be theirs. What are they going to do really...hunt you down and hire lawyers for copying a few CDs for yourself? In fact one of my old jobs was handling getting coyrights for albums, and know what the issues are pretty well.
In some instances, for out of print or deleted titles, the copyright reverts to the creator (musicians generally) after a specified number of years and then they have the right to reproduce it. This is generally something spelled out in contracts. Rest assured though on pretty much any "creation" nowadays, someone holds a copyright whether registered or not. Just the act of creation gives a person a sort of common-law copyright that will stand up in court. Technically if they wanted to make a case out of you they could, but would they? Not for one off CDs. Even on my own CD, I have had someone buy one and turn to a friend and say "I'll make you a copy", right in front of me. What can I say or do really...If I tell them not to, they will anyway, even after saying they won't. I just can't think about it, most musicians know there will be a certain % of this done. It may not be right legally but it is done all the time. I choose to just focus on mass production and profiting off my work through unauthorized sales.
What I have always done.... and whoever wants to can come after me, if I get a CD I love, I make a copy for the car. I abuse CDs to death in my car, they fly all over, I change them and toss them on a seat, then groceries get on top, then they fall under the seat for a year etc. I am a total car slob, I don't want to ruin my CDs, or at least the original. So I copy literally everything I want to play in the car. That is a technical violation. Do they care? No,I used to even talk about it when I used to work at the recording company...no problem there, nor for any other employee. What I would never do is burn a bunch of copies and sell them to people for less for example.
I am a major fighter on copyright issues, being a visual artist by profession, I have had my work unlawfully reproduced more times than I can remember or count. I literally keep a form letter demanding licensing fees or a cease and desist on my computer and just change the names to suit the people. My work lends itself to being great for backgrounds and is used all the time, mostly legally thankfully!
These people are mass reproducing my work as backgrounds for packaging, advertisements etc. They are profiting on my creation.... it makes me crazy if they have not gotten my permission, and I react quite strongly, and have ultimately always won. Now if someone took my work, say a person like you, and liked it and wanted to xerox a copy for their own use, say to frame a picture or make a greeting card, or let their kids cut up...would I care.... no. What would be the point? I would have been a bit happier if you had bought two sheets of the decorative paper I make, but I wouldn't be surprised when you didn't, and wouldn't bother thinking about it. And I certainly wouldn't spend time and money hunting you down. If you mass reproduced it and were selling it, I would make your life very uncomfortable until you either paid me or stopped doing it.
So that's the real difference. If you want a copy of something for your own use, I think it's no problem, I do not think it's a reasonable restriction under "fair use", and I am one of the most rabid pro-copyright law people around. It is unenforceable and people do it all the time and they always will. It's called "Don't sweat the small stuff".... the big stuff, the fangs come out and I will go after anyone profiting on my work.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: out of print records
I'm not arguing one way or the other on whether to copy a friend's out-of-print CD. I'm just saying we should be aware, especially in a public forum, of the legal issue. The courts have said that it's "fair use" to make a copy of a CD to play in your car, but not fair use to copy a CD you don't own. Of course, everybody knows you'll never be held accountable for it.
Full disclosure:
I have a cassette tape of an old out-of-print LP that a friend made for me. Mea culpa, but I'd probably do it again if I rilly, rilly wanted the recording and couldn't find a used copy to buy.
I make sampler CD's for friends using copyrighted tracks. I don't copy entire CD's that are commercially available. If they want more of something, I give them the info or just buy them a copy.
I exceeded the speed limit this morning for a good thirty miles.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: out of print records
Shame on you Bob!!
What about people taping radio programs.... I mean it really is too much. I think as long as we respect the artists and don't copy and sell their stuff, if we just make something for ourselves, why not. I can imagine if you wrote the artist and asked if you could do it, they'd think you were mad for asking. They'd appreciate it for sure.... but it would likely be a first!
We all do technically illegal things. I...perish the thought.... have started to refuse to recycle junk mail. It's so much, and I have to tie it up and drag it down to the road, which is a hike, and it hurts my hands and wrists, which are overused these days. I really resent junk mail. They use really nasty chemicals too in recycling paper, and make everyone think it's so "green" and pure. OK...that's off topic..... still I am a criminal as are you for speeding Bob!! Now go copy that CD. If you get arrested, just blame me! Anyway.... I will leave my "confessions" at that.... you don't want to hear the GOOD STUFF, LOL! Only Kidding!
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: out of print records
Recording a radio (or TV) broadcast for private use is legal. The courts say that *does* fall under Fair Use. You just can't sell it or play it for an audience.
We really need clearer, more rational rules on this stuff. Rules that feel fair to most people. Right now, in the US anyway, we pay a small fee to the recording companies every time we buy most recordable media, under the assumption that some people will use them to illegally copy commercial recordings. A few cents from every music CD-R goes into to that pool. But, at the same time, we have the copyright laws telling us we *can't* copy the recordings.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: out of print records
The rules are quite unclear, Bob. I think the main thing is if you copy for personal use you can expect no problems even if it is on the shady side of legal. If you copy, reissue and sell without permission, could be a nightmare. I know I have made a few nightmares for people before they ultimately paid me. It depends too how agressive/mad the offended party is too.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: out of print records
Sorry for "butting in"
here.
I've often wondered where we stand with *legally* downloading music from the Internet and transferring it to CD. Should we really keep some "proof of purchase" from the online companies, i.e. print out or save this? Just in case, there was any dispute at a later date?
I've got quite a few of those now (Legally downloaded CDs) and they appear no different to "the naked eye" than those which I *may* have copied from a friend or the local music library. Not that I'd do such a thing, of course.
Just a thought.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by John J.
Re: out of print records
We live in interesting digital times and it's going to get even more interesting as the options keep multiplying. Maybe the music distribution system will evolve into something like public broadcasting in the US, where 20% of the users are willing to voluntarily pay enough to maintain the system.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Bob himself