I recently returned from a wonderful two week stay in Ireland, in which the entire focus of the trip was music. I hadn't been to Ireland since Christmas time of 2000 (yep, I was there for the snow storm that ravaged much of the country that year). This trip, however, I was surprised to see how much has changed in the short 6 years since my last time there.
Divided highways lead to a more comfortable experience driving in a lot of cases. We put 2200 km on our hired car on this trip. But divided highways also came with sport utility vehicles that are bigger than anything I saw on my last trip. Add a surprising amount of traffic jams and several uncourteous drivers, I found it rather annoying at times. People actually know the road numbers now, where before, they would say "just take the Ennis Road". Now it's "Go down the N11 and take the Ennis Exit".
There seemed to be a lot of ... well.. for lack of a better term: "Americanization" going on. Large shopping strips, huge automobile dealerships, 24 hour grocery stores, and housing developments where all the houses are identical, to name a few.
We went out to the Cliffs of Moher one evening, to find that not only do they charge for parking, they also charge admission to walk up to see the cliffs. And you can pay even more for the "Cliffs of Moher EXPERIENCE" in the newly constructed visitor centre. The USA charges admission to national parks, most of which goes to the upkeep. But I got the feeling that the Clare Council was renovating the Cliffs of Moher into a profit making effort!
My impression is that the culture, as a whole, is going through a process of commercialization, where materialism is running rampant, and it kind of bothers me.
Musically, things were really great. We went to sessions almost every night, and attended several sessions that we decided not to even ask if they'd let us join, because we were enjoying the groove they had going on. But most of the sessions that we played in were great, and the people were friendly. There were a few sessions that we attended that were noticeably paid sessions for the benefit of tourists - and the players didn't seem to care less whether we played or not - they were just waiting for the wad of cash at the end. But it was still good music, even if it wasn't good craic.
A friend there was telling me that pubs are closing at the rate of one per day in Ireland. He said the reasons are pretty obvious. The smoking ban, the crackdown on drunk driving (which seems to be working GREAT, BTW! I have never seen people so conscious about drinking and driving! Those campaigns don't seem to be nearly as effective over here). And he also said that people are living in their new million Euro homes with widescreen televisions and internet, so they don't have much need for the pubs anymore.
But then, who am I to say "gee, I wish your economy still sucked, so that your country could stay quaint"? Don't get me wrong, I love Ireland! I want to find a way to move there (which, ironically, might "pollute" what I love about Ireland even more...). And I think it is great that the Celtic Tiger has roared, and things are so much better for pretty much everyone in Ireland! But I can't help but feel a bit disappointed.
On a brighter note, I found places like Corofin and Athenry to be mostly untouched by the things I found disappointing. If I ever figure out a way to move there, I think I would like to be in Clare or Galway somewhere. And I won't complain about SOME "Americanization", because I'll need good broadband
Interesting observations, Pete. I haven't been back to Ireland since I was there as a kid in 1964 or thereabouts. I remember communities poorer than any I'd seen where I lived in southern Italy, which felt "third world" compared to the States.
But I also remember sitting on the back of my Dad's bicycle and covering miles of gravel roads around Co. Roscommon without any traffic except carts and horses and the occasional tangle of sheep.
Cheshire, can you think of a country that hasn't changed since 1964?
Anyway, you might like to check out the large photo at the foot of this page - it shows an:
"Old Dublin view c1910 of Rathmines village on the city's southside, with tram tracks & Town Hall clock tower. ... & when you Mouse over the image, it displays a modern view of Rathmines 2006."
If it's nostalgia your after, there are quite a few interesting old photos on that site.
A smoking ban, anti-drunk driving efforts, improvement and modernization of living conditions? Sound like fine things to me, even if it closes a few pubs. Yes, A bartender might lose his/her job, but five will open up elsewhere in the booming service sector. I wish U.S. states would follow suit.
Dick, I wasn't suggesting Ireland should've stayed stuck in 1964. Merely providing a small slice of context for Pete's more recent travels there. As I said, the poverty of 40 years ago was obvious. Not something I'd wish on any society.
But that doesn't mean I'm not bothered by tract housing or running a four-lane through the Hill of Tara....
Yip, I know what your talking about, cause I was living in Ireland in '69 & I saw first hand how poor some folks were.
On the other hand, looking back through those good old rose-tinted glasses, I see a country I would dearly love to be able to visit again, but it's gone!
Or maybe that's just me wishing I was young again!
I'm not a fan of strip malls, either (I haven't yet been to the Metro Centre in Newcastle), but other than poverty, the "quaint" Ireland had assorted other issues with it that I would have liked less than strip malls. I'm writing a paper (hah -- I *should* be writing a paper and am clearly not at this second) on reproductive rights in Ireland and this research has given me a totally new perspective on the country that I never had whilst just running around it playing music. While the US and UK also went through their repressive Victorian periods, there was a vein of feminist protest literature that grew more and more mainstream. Not so in Ireland until the 1950s. It's pretty much on par with the UK or US now in most respects, but that has only been a recent development. I think the affluence and yes, even commercialization and materialism, has contributed to liberalization of civil rights issues. So yeah, not a bad thing.
My other theory which has nothing to do with my degree is that Americans like the idea of the "quaint" Ireland because it's cool and foreign, whereas strip malls, 4X4s, and motorways are not. But Pete, it's a whole different experience living in a place. To be fair, England has no shortage of development, but it's still in some ways not as commercialized as the US. That's awesome, you say, and maybe it's just me, but I would SELL MY SOUL for a Drive-through Dunkin' Donuts right now!!!!!!!!
THe states are long past Dunkin donuts. There's a Starbucks every 150 feet.
I found the changes in Ireland since the mid 90's to last year astounding. You really have to get away from the major cities to find the Ireland that was.
If you get off the M's though there is still much beautiful country and very freindly people.
I don't know if they know they miss dunkin donuts though
You can get them from a van in Durham Market Place most Saturdays if you can hold out that long - though I wouldn't know how they compare to US ones.
I may have got a last glimpse of the old Ireland in 1978, looking at the old, sometimes derelict or dilapidated buildings lining the north bank of the Liffey in Dublin. I wonder what's become of them. (All in all, they were a handsome group.)
Coming back in 1984, a group of us (archaeologists, at the time) visited the area just south of the Liffey (Wood Quay?) where very promising excavations of the Viking city had uncovered less than they might have done because of haste to build on the site. They'd built all right - two or more bloody hideous concrete pyramids, if I remember rightly. I hope they were not a portent of all the new building done since.
Not been over this side of the Millenium, so threads like this will hopefully cushion the blow of the harsh reality. I can imagine Dublin and Cork being built up, but is the same true with the smaller cities, eg Limerick, Galway and maybe Sligo?
"but I would SELL MY SOUL for a Drive-through Dunkin' Donuts right now!!!!!!!!"
Man, you need to live on the East coast of the US again. Right after returning from Ireland, I had to go to Boston and Rhode Island for a memorial service.
I couldn't believe all the Dunkin' Donuts there are out there... LOTS more of those than Starbucks. The DD stores all pretty much went out of business around here as far as I can tell.
Decimal, RE "...but is the same true with the smaller cities, eg Limerick, Galway and maybe Sligo?"
Galway still has a great city centre. But get out around Oranmore, you wouldn't believe the huge shopping centers and such. I hope to never have to spend much more time in Limerick - I didn't find that place the least bit appealing.
I did go to Sligo on this trip, and it seemed quite nice - but I hadn't been there before, so not much to compare it to. We had some good Indian at a restaurant there, and heard a really nice session.
"Man, you need to live on the East coast of the US again. Right after returning from Ireland, I had to go to Boston and Rhode Island for a memorial service... I couldn't believe all the Dunkin' Donuts there are out there... "
That was actually my exact thought when I moved back to CO. But Boulder has more coffee shops per square mile than London, so it was okay.
Limerick, by the way, has some fantastic sessions.
You make some good observations Reverend, Ireland has changed an awful lot since around 1990. The good sides to this change are more multiculturalism, economic stability and I suppose the rise in popularity of trad is part of this.
There are a lot of downsides to it as you've noted. Dublin just isn't what it used to be, its becoming a cold, overpriced European City and its really hard to find pubs where you can have some good craic. Alcohol has become ridiculously expensive in the cities, particularly Dublin and the cities just aren't that safe. Dublin city is always full of drunken louts on weekend nights. I'm all for people having a good time but some of these guys are just into drinking and violence. Aside from them there are a huge amount of yuppies, rich business types with no soul. Some of the Celtic Tiger stuff developed for tourists is just awful, especially what they've done to the Cliffs of Moher, it's a real disgrace and you are right about it becoming a profit making enterprise. The more they try to 'develop' these landmark attractions the more they are going to ruin their mystique.
Anyway the main thing i think that we are losing is the soul of the Irish, especially in Dublin. I moved to Spiddal near Galway at the start of this year and I've never felt happier living somewhere. Spiddal is in the Irish speaking Gaeltacht so right away you get a sense of being very much in Ireland, whereas some places could pass for any modern 'Americanized' western country. Yet even Spiddal is being developed day by day, there's some town houses being built not so far from me and these kind of soulless buildings take away from the character of the area, so who know in a few years Spiddal might just become an extension of Galway city.
Galway city seems to me to still have a good buzz about it, it's not so commercialized as Dublin and there's quite a bohemian culture around and loads of trad in the city, although most of the sessions are commercial 'tourist' sessions.
To me the best music is to be found during the festivals and in rural areas. If anyone is coming to Ireland looking for music its best to avoid the major cities, spend a day or two in Dublin just to see it, its still a nice city to visit I guess, but I wouldn't stay there too long.
For first time visitors I'd definitely suggest coming in July and/or August when the weather is generally good and the main festivals are on.
Overall Ireland has changed a lot, but then so has the world and while it has changed for the worse in some respects, you can still find a sense of the old Ireland in places. Just don't expect to find good humoured leprechauns everywhere you look!
I went to Ireland for the first time in 1997, returned in 2002 and 2003 and was completely blown away by the changes. An irish buddy, a Dubliner, took me to the suburbs south of Dublin and I was aghast. "Jesus Christ" I said to him "it looks just like Irvine, California." He grinned and said "Aye, it's 'the boom'.
To be fair, I visited 21 European countries in 2002-2003, and had to travel to rural, central Turkey before I could escape the stink of Americanization. Even my dear, dirty Budapest had american-stye car dealerships springing up everywhere. It's not just Ireland. The whole continent has become infected.
Thanks frisbee, your comments seems to fall directly in line with what I experienced when I was there. I'm all for multiculturalism and a stable economy! And I do love Co. Galway, and Co. Clare an awful lot. I just hope that the desire exists to keep the great bits about those areas great.
Personally, I visited during the "offseason" for a reason. I don't want to see tourists, even though I am one. I would rather see Ireland when it isn't invaded by thousands of fans for Willy Week, for instance.
Interestingly enough, we actually caught a couple of great festivals while we were there... The Gathering in Killarney had some unbelievable moments - like the hallway session that we left at 3AM, only to have our seats descended upon by other players, and then had to fight through a full set dance, and 3 other sessions to get out the door (while running into a number of people that we knew). And contrastingly, the Corofin festival where we got some great tunes and some great craic in a much smaller venue.
I hope my first post wasn't too negative. I've never been to a place that calls to me as much as Ireland, and I enjoy my time there so much! But I feel like the hell that is my everyday life is maybe spreading and potentially ruining something I love so much. I just want that not to happen.
And Em, RE "Limerick, by the way, has some fantastic sessions." No doubt... I just hope I don't ever have a major reason to have to visit "stab city" again... The worst part was the 2 hour traffic jam trying to get out of there!
Please don't refer to Limerick with that epithet when the worst part was the traffic. It's not especially pretty, but it's a fine city. With lots of good music - but it's still better in Clare!
Otherwise, I think you've got Ireland pretty much spot on, rev Pete!
I think Limerick is very pretty in town, lots of old buildings and in summer all the flower pots - which are all over Ireland - but I still think limerick is lovely.
I'd agree with Frisbee. It's mostly in rural Ireland that you'll still find people with time for a chat and who will take an interest in your doings whether you like it or not! I sometimes get a bit disillusioned - so much ongoing stuff over property and wealth, keeping up with the Joneses .. all that sort of stuff. I have a strong suspicion it will come crashing down for a lot of people and they won't even have the music to console themselves with!! And even in rural Ireland, you will only find trad music in pockets here and there.
I have met quite a few ex-Brits who have moved over to the West coast to do high-tech jobs working from home. their biggest complaint was the lack of infrastructure from roads, phones,electricity supply etc. but mainly for the broadband which was always falling over, stopping them working.
I took the missus (a non-musician) to Kilrush with me, she
was immediately adopted by one of the local families and every night they just happened to be in the same session as us so she had someone to sit with every night. She found out about everything happening in the area, whose family was full of villains, and who was regenerating the area.
The whole country still runs at a different speed and people have time to stop and talk.
What we were surprised at was the number of Eastern-Europeans over there who were pricing the locals out of casual jobs.
I've actually had some of my best times in Ireland in Limerick and will be back there in a couple weeks to visit friends. Tourists don't flock to Limerick, so town (and sessions!) isn't packed wiith 3476786 tourists like you find in the city centre of Galway during the summer. I thought the city was charming in its own way.
While I was spending a summer studying in Limerick, the cord to my laptop died so I went to the computer shop on the main street there to see if they could provide a new one. They didn't have any cords compatible with the computer, but the guy in the store was like, "I'll see if I can fix it. Come back in like an hour." So I wandered off to a book shop, had a nice conversation with some guys who I believe would be called "chavs" in the UK but I don't remember what the Irish called them, but they were friendly enough, and then went back to the computer shop. The guy there had sown part of another cord onto my cord with some electrical tape and wire. The cord worked again. And he didn't charge me a euro.
When I went back to the States, a different part of the cord broke, during final's week, no less! so I went to Comp USA to sort it out. They said I'd have to fill in this paperwork and ten days later, I would receive a new cord. Which was useless since I had several 5000 word papers to write then and there, and that laptop wouldn't work unless it was plugged into a wall. Ended up having to buy a cord in RadioShack.
So yeah, that's Ireland v. the States for you. I don't think it would be the same in Dublin, but I don't really like Dublin anyway.
bb - I agree with you re Limerick. It has a fine city centre. In fact, architecturally much grander than Galway. (.....running for cover - but it's true.)
Oh, and you can avoid traffic jams by going on the ring road. The "Stab City" name is a thing of the past, and it's a shame it's still referred to as such, even by one-off visitors. I've had some nice sessions there and have, in the past, spent a fair bit of time in Co. Lim'k.
The obvious place to go for a quiet country holiday, with traditional music around if you want it, is of course Eastern Europe. This is because the Eastern Europeans are all over here. I gather there's now an acute shortage of plumbers and nurses in Poland for this reason.
I think I know where the old pubs are going. A lot of new pubs in America are bragging about their interiors being shipped over from Ireland, and using it as an argument that they offer an "authentic" Irish experience.
My one visit was in 2004, and we spent most of our time in the Northwest around Sligo (and a couple days in Galway). This was in August--high season--and there were few tourists, the people were lovely, and there was good music to be found. Galway was fun, but quite a contrast from the more rural Sligo area. On our drive to Galway, Westport was where we first encountered tour buses and tourist mobs. (But the drive through Connemara was spectacular!)
By the way, we were put off by the entrance fee at the Cliffs of Moher (where hordes of American octegenarians were disgorging from tour buses), so we kept on down the road a bit and found a dirt road that led up to a cow fence. We hopped it and had a quiet picninc next to the tower that stands at cliff's edge.
About the drink driving. I don't think it is the admittedly gruesome awareness campaigns which are working as much as the fact that the law was recently changed so that the guards can now stop and test you for alcohol whenever they want to. Up until recently they needed a reason/excuse to stop you, like a broken headlight or similar so you were much less likely to be stopped.
Don't be lettin on about Limerick. You'll turn it into another Galway.
My father hung a plaque in Nancy Blakes 40 years ago with a saying about the "Fisherman...he riseth up early...." and all that. Nancy just passed on but the plaque survives hopefully. I'd appreciate anyone checking in to see it's still there and raising a pint in my family's honor.
And then there's Dolans. I love Limerick and wish I could go there now, especially in the spring. Of course having family there opens up the city's arms to ya.
BTW, on my last trip over (last year) they were building the Cliffs of Moher visitor center. It looked futuristic, yet buried into the side of the hill so as to be low profile. I thought that was a good idea. But I hope they are not ripping the money outa yer wallet over it??
PS. Here in Massachusetts we give directions to lost people like so "you go down here past the Dunkin Donuts and bear left...after you pass your 3rd Dunkin Donuts there is a fork...etc. etc."
"so rev is it fair to say that new ireland is doing a great impression of new england!"
Well, unfortunately, I don't have enough experience with England to tell you the answer to that. But it certainly doesn't surprise me.
Not everything about the U.S. is bad, certainly. We enjoy a lot of creature comforts and handy amenities that make our quality of life quite nice. And it's good that other people are able to have the same kind of pleasures. Heck, every single place I stayed over two weeks in Ireland had "American style" showers, with loads of water pressure (which is different than the last time I was there).
But one problem that I have with the commercialization that has taken place in the U.S. over the last 30 years or so, is the homogenization of our regions. You can go into a town in Georgia, where the Wal Mart is next to the Office Max and Best Buy, and it looks exactly like a shopping center in Oregon.
I just hate to think that all the good parts of "Americanization" might also come with all the bad parts too. Sigh.
And SL*, that's actually rather frightening that the Gardaí can pull you over without probable cause. The police here need a reason to pull you over - but having said that, they can pretty much always find a reason if they try hard enough. Is there a legal blood alcohol content level in Ireland? Even at 3 or 4 hour long sessions, I don't think I saw anyone have more than one drink before they switched to the Lucozade if they were driving.
Trying to avoid the unbridled 'Celtic Tiger', we went to Donegal (county and Donegal Town). Herself's family's paternal county. It was much lower key and the distance from hyperdevelopment to normal towns was shorter. Wonderful people who seem to be getting very wart as the development begins. Already saw some condos and commercial on Donegal Bay towards Slieve League.
However, in the American Irish press and RTE's syndicated show here 'Out of Ireland' Has been hyping Donegal very heavily.
Can you imagine a McDonalds on the square opposite the Abbey? Or in the spirit of the thread, a Dunkin Donuts opposite the Castle?
As you know, I just came back from Dingle and Ennis and found the same things although on the fringes of the country (Dingle Peninsula) the changes do have a distinctive Irish flavor. For instance, there have been condom machines in the men's toilets for several years now, but very commonly you see only two slots offering condoms and the rest offering candy, for the children, I assume <G>
The publicans did complain about the dirnk driving campaign but the more popular pubs were still doing a fair business. Broadband is in Dingle, but not in Ballyferriter (yet) but since there are so many musicians in that area, it is not a bad thing.
But there are fewer and fewer shops operating on Irish time which is a loss.
Zina is doing well, although unfortunately, she and I are no longer married - so you'll have to ask her why she's not around yourself. I'm sure she'd respond to a mail sent through thesession still
The "we" in the case of my recent trip actually refers to myself and Roger Landes, which made for a wild and wacky two weeks, lemme tall ya!
Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Impressions of the "new Ireland"
I recently returned from a wonderful two week stay in Ireland, in which the entire focus of the trip was music. I hadn't been to Ireland since Christmas time of 2000 (yep, I was there for the snow storm that ravaged much of the country that year). This trip, however, I was surprised to see how much has changed in the short 6 years since my last time there.
Divided highways lead to a more comfortable experience driving in a lot of cases. We put 2200 km on our hired car on this trip. But divided highways also came with sport utility vehicles that are bigger than anything I saw on my last trip. Add a surprising amount of traffic jams and several uncourteous drivers, I found it rather annoying at times. People actually know the road numbers now, where before, they would say "just take the Ennis Road". Now it's "Go down the N11 and take the Ennis Exit".
There seemed to be a lot of ... well.. for lack of a better term: "Americanization" going on. Large shopping strips, huge automobile dealerships, 24 hour grocery stores, and housing developments where all the houses are identical, to name a few.
We went out to the Cliffs of Moher one evening, to find that not only do they charge for parking, they also charge admission to walk up to see the cliffs. And you can pay even more for the "Cliffs of Moher EXPERIENCE" in the newly constructed visitor centre. The USA charges admission to national parks, most of which goes to the upkeep. But I got the feeling that the Clare Council was renovating the Cliffs of Moher into a profit making effort!
My impression is that the culture, as a whole, is going through a process of commercialization, where materialism is running rampant, and it kind of bothers me.
Musically, things were really great. We went to sessions almost every night, and attended several sessions that we decided not to even ask if they'd let us join, because we were enjoying the groove they had going on. But most of the sessions that we played in were great, and the people were friendly. There were a few sessions that we attended that were noticeably paid sessions for the benefit of tourists - and the players didn't seem to care less whether we played or not - they were just waiting for the wad of cash at the end. But it was still good music, even if it wasn't good craic.
A friend there was telling me that pubs are closing at the rate of one per day in Ireland. He said the reasons are pretty obvious. The smoking ban, the crackdown on drunk driving (which seems to be working GREAT, BTW! I have never seen people so conscious about drinking and driving! Those campaigns don't seem to be nearly as effective over here). And he also said that people are living in their new million Euro homes with widescreen televisions and internet, so they don't have much need for the pubs anymore.
But then, who am I to say "gee, I wish your economy still sucked, so that your country could stay quaint"? Don't get me wrong, I love Ireland! I want to find a way to move there (which, ironically, might "pollute" what I love about Ireland even more...). And I think it is great that the Celtic Tiger has roared, and things are so much better for pretty much everyone in Ireland! But I can't help but feel a bit disappointed.
On a brighter note, I found places like Corofin and Athenry to be mostly untouched by the things I found disappointing. If I ever figure out a way to move there, I think I would like to be in Clare or Galway somewhere. And I won't complain about SOME "Americanization", because I'll need good broadband
Pete
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Interesting observations, Pete. I haven't been back to Ireland since I was there as a kid in 1964 or thereabouts. I remember communities poorer than any I'd seen where I lived in southern Italy, which felt "third world" compared to the States.
But I also remember sitting on the back of my Dad's bicycle and covering miles of gravel roads around Co. Roscommon without any traffic except carts and horses and the occasional tangle of sheep.
I'm almost afraid to go back now....
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
"I haven't been back to Ireland since I was there as a kid in 1964 or thereabouts"
Besides the fact that you get the obligatory "gee, you're old" comment
I think you saw a very different Ireland than I saw even 6 years ago. So that helps put a different perspective on it for me then!
But that's been a long time... I think it's time you went back. Maybe I'll take YOU next time!
Pete
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Cheshire, can you think of a country that hasn't changed since 1964?
Anyway, you might like to check out the large photo at the foot of this page - it shows an:
"Old Dublin view c1910 of Rathmines village on the city's southside, with tram tracks & Town Hall clock tower. ... & when you Mouse over the image, it displays a modern view of Rathmines 2006."
If it's nostalgia your after, there are quite a few interesting old photos on that site.
http://irelandposters.com/oldphotos/
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
A smoking ban, anti-drunk driving efforts, improvement and modernization of living conditions? Sound like fine things to me, even if it closes a few pubs. Yes, A bartender might lose his/her job, but five will open up elsewhere in the booming service sector. I wish U.S. states would follow suit.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Agreed, Devin.
The things that were annoying me were more like the tract housing, the traffic jams and SUVs, and the rampant materialism.
It's still a great country to love, so I still do.
Pete
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
You won't get broadband in Athenry
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by proinsiasrua
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Dick, I wasn't suggesting Ireland should've stayed stuck in 1964. Merely providing a small slice of context for Pete's more recent travels there. As I said, the poverty of 40 years ago was obvious. Not something I'd wish on any society.
But that doesn't mean I'm not bothered by tract housing or running a four-lane through the Hill of Tara....
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
"You won't get broadband in Athenry" - I suppose the *Fields* interfere with reception, do they?
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Yip, I know what your talking about, cause I was living in Ireland in '69 & I saw first hand how poor some folks were.
On the other hand, looking back through those good old rose-tinted glasses, I see a country I would dearly love to be able to visit again, but it's gone!
Or maybe that's just me wishing I was young again!
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
I'm not a fan of strip malls, either (I haven't yet been to the Metro Centre in Newcastle), but other than poverty, the "quaint" Ireland had assorted other issues with it that I would have liked less than strip malls. I'm writing a paper (hah -- I *should* be writing a paper and am clearly not at this second) on reproductive rights in Ireland and this research has given me a totally new perspective on the country that I never had whilst just running around it playing music. While the US and UK also went through their repressive Victorian periods, there was a vein of feminist protest literature that grew more and more mainstream. Not so in Ireland until the 1950s. It's pretty much on par with the UK or US now in most respects, but that has only been a recent development. I think the affluence and yes, even commercialization and materialism, has contributed to liberalization of civil rights issues. So yeah, not a bad thing.
My other theory which has nothing to do with my degree is that Americans like the idea of the "quaint" Ireland because it's cool and foreign, whereas strip malls, 4X4s, and motorways are not. But Pete, it's a whole different experience living in a place. To be fair, England has no shortage of development, but it's still in some ways not as commercialized as the US. That's awesome, you say, and maybe it's just me, but I would SELL MY SOUL for a Drive-through Dunkin' Donuts right now!!!!!!!!
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
SS
THe states are long past Dunkin donuts. There's a Starbucks every 150 feet.
I found the changes in Ireland since the mid 90's to last year astounding. You really have to get away from the major cities to find the Ireland that was.
If you get off the M's though there is still much beautiful country and very freindly people.
I don't know if they know they miss dunkin donuts though
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
You can get them from a van in Durham Market Place most Saturdays if you can hold out that long - though I wouldn't know how they compare to US ones.
I may have got a last glimpse of the old Ireland in 1978, looking at the old, sometimes derelict or dilapidated buildings lining the north bank of the Liffey in Dublin. I wonder what's become of them. (All in all, they were a handsome group.)
Coming back in 1984, a group of us (archaeologists, at the time) visited the area just south of the Liffey (Wood Quay?) where very promising excavations of the Viking city had uncovered less than they might have done because of haste to build on the site. They'd built all right - two or more bloody hideous concrete pyramids, if I remember rightly. I hope they were not a portent of all the new building done since.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Not been over this side of the Millenium, so threads like this will hopefully cushion the blow of the harsh reality. I can imagine Dublin and Cork being built up, but is the same true with the smaller cities, eg Limerick, Galway and maybe Sligo?
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
"but I would SELL MY SOUL for a Drive-through Dunkin' Donuts right now!!!!!!!!"
Man, you need to live on the East coast of the US again. Right after returning from Ireland, I had to go to Boston and Rhode Island for a memorial service.
I couldn't believe all the Dunkin' Donuts there are out there... LOTS more of those than Starbucks. The DD stores all pretty much went out of business around here as far as I can tell.
Decimal, RE "...but is the same true with the smaller cities, eg Limerick, Galway and maybe Sligo?"
Galway still has a great city centre. But get out around Oranmore, you wouldn't believe the huge shopping centers and such. I hope to never have to spend much more time in Limerick - I didn't find that place the least bit appealing.
I did go to Sligo on this trip, and it seemed quite nice - but I hadn't been there before, so not much to compare it to. We had some good Indian at a restaurant there, and heard a really nice session.
Pete
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
They send you to donut school if you buy a DD franchise..
Do Field's have an effect on reception ?
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by lamh trom
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Hi Pete,
"Man, you need to live on the East coast of the US again. Right after returning from Ireland, I had to go to Boston and Rhode Island for a memorial service... I couldn't believe all the Dunkin' Donuts there are out there... "
That was actually my exact thought when I moved back to CO. But Boulder has more coffee shops per square mile than London, so it was okay.
Limerick, by the way, has some fantastic sessions.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
You make some good observations Reverend, Ireland has changed an awful lot since around 1990. The good sides to this change are more multiculturalism, economic stability and I suppose the rise in popularity of trad is part of this.
There are a lot of downsides to it as you've noted. Dublin just isn't what it used to be, its becoming a cold, overpriced European City and its really hard to find pubs where you can have some good craic. Alcohol has become ridiculously expensive in the cities, particularly Dublin and the cities just aren't that safe. Dublin city is always full of drunken louts on weekend nights. I'm all for people having a good time but some of these guys are just into drinking and violence. Aside from them there are a huge amount of yuppies, rich business types with no soul. Some of the Celtic Tiger stuff developed for tourists is just awful, especially what they've done to the Cliffs of Moher, it's a real disgrace and you are right about it becoming a profit making enterprise. The more they try to 'develop' these landmark attractions the more they are going to ruin their mystique.
Anyway the main thing i think that we are losing is the soul of the Irish, especially in Dublin. I moved to Spiddal near Galway at the start of this year and I've never felt happier living somewhere. Spiddal is in the Irish speaking Gaeltacht so right away you get a sense of being very much in Ireland, whereas some places could pass for any modern 'Americanized' western country. Yet even Spiddal is being developed day by day, there's some town houses being built not so far from me and these kind of soulless buildings take away from the character of the area, so who know in a few years Spiddal might just become an extension of Galway city.
Galway city seems to me to still have a good buzz about it, it's not so commercialized as Dublin and there's quite a bohemian culture around and loads of trad in the city, although most of the sessions are commercial 'tourist' sessions.
To me the best music is to be found during the festivals and in rural areas. If anyone is coming to Ireland looking for music its best to avoid the major cities, spend a day or two in Dublin just to see it, its still a nice city to visit I guess, but I wouldn't stay there too long.
For first time visitors I'd definitely suggest coming in July and/or August when the weather is generally good and the main festivals are on.
Overall Ireland has changed a lot, but then so has the world and while it has changed for the worse in some respects, you can still find a sense of the old Ireland in places. Just don't expect to find good humoured leprechauns everywhere you look!
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
I went to Ireland for the first time in 1997, returned in 2002 and 2003 and was completely blown away by the changes. An irish buddy, a Dubliner, took me to the suburbs south of Dublin and I was aghast. "Jesus Christ" I said to him "it looks just like Irvine, California." He grinned and said "Aye, it's 'the boom'.
To be fair, I visited 21 European countries in 2002-2003, and had to travel to rural, central Turkey before I could escape the stink of Americanization. Even my dear, dirty Budapest had american-stye car dealerships springing up everywhere. It's not just Ireland. The whole continent has become infected.
Good luck, my European brothers and sisters.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by buskerjohn
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Thanks frisbee, your comments seems to fall directly in line with what I experienced when I was there. I'm all for multiculturalism and a stable economy! And I do love Co. Galway, and Co. Clare an awful lot. I just hope that the desire exists to keep the great bits about those areas great.
Personally, I visited during the "offseason" for a reason. I don't want to see tourists, even though I am one. I would rather see Ireland when it isn't invaded by thousands of fans for Willy Week, for instance.
Interestingly enough, we actually caught a couple of great festivals while we were there... The Gathering in Killarney had some unbelievable moments - like the hallway session that we left at 3AM, only to have our seats descended upon by other players, and then had to fight through a full set dance, and 3 other sessions to get out the door (while running into a number of people that we knew). And contrastingly, the Corofin festival where we got some great tunes and some great craic in a much smaller venue.
I hope my first post wasn't too negative. I've never been to a place that calls to me as much as Ireland, and I enjoy my time there so much! But I feel like the hell that is my everyday life is maybe spreading and potentially ruining something I love so much. I just want that not to happen.
And Em, RE "Limerick, by the way, has some fantastic sessions." No doubt... I just hope I don't ever have a major reason to have to visit "stab city" again... The worst part was the 2 hour traffic jam trying to get out of there!
Pete
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Please don't refer to Limerick with that epithet when the worst part was the traffic. It's not especially pretty, but it's a fine city. With lots of good music - but it's still better in Clare!
Otherwise, I think you've got Ireland pretty much spot on, rev Pete!
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by RockyRoader
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
I think Limerick is very pretty in town, lots of old buildings and in summer all the flower pots - which are all over Ireland - but I still think limerick is lovely.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by bb
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
I'd agree with Frisbee. It's mostly in rural Ireland that you'll still find people with time for a chat and who will take an interest in your doings whether you like it or not! I sometimes get a bit disillusioned - so much ongoing stuff over property and wealth, keeping up with the Joneses .. all that sort of stuff. I have a strong suspicion it will come crashing down for a lot of people and they won't even have the music to console themselves with!! And even in rural Ireland, you will only find trad music in pockets here and there.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
I have met quite a few ex-Brits who have moved over to the West coast to do high-tech jobs working from home. their biggest complaint was the lack of infrastructure from roads, phones,electricity supply etc. but mainly for the broadband which was always falling over, stopping them working.
I took the missus (a non-musician) to Kilrush with me, she
was immediately adopted by one of the local families and every night they just happened to be in the same session as us so she had someone to sit with every night. She found out about everything happening in the area, whose family was full of villains, and who was regenerating the area.
The whole country still runs at a different speed and people have time to stop and talk.
What we were surprised at was the number of Eastern-Europeans over there who were pricing the locals out of casual jobs.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
"you will only find trad music in pockets here and there." - Aye Hussar, I think the kids call those things iPods!
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
I've actually had some of my best times in Ireland in Limerick and will be back there in a couple weeks to visit friends. Tourists don't flock to Limerick, so town (and sessions!) isn't packed wiith 3476786 tourists like you find in the city centre of Galway during the summer. I thought the city was charming in its own way.
While I was spending a summer studying in Limerick, the cord to my laptop died so I went to the computer shop on the main street there to see if they could provide a new one. They didn't have any cords compatible with the computer, but the guy in the store was like, "I'll see if I can fix it. Come back in like an hour." So I wandered off to a book shop, had a nice conversation with some guys who I believe would be called "chavs" in the UK but I don't remember what the Irish called them, but they were friendly enough, and then went back to the computer shop. The guy there had sown part of another cord onto my cord with some electrical tape and wire. The cord worked again. And he didn't charge me a euro.
When I went back to the States, a different part of the cord broke, during final's week, no less! so I went to Comp USA to sort it out. They said I'd have to fill in this paperwork and ten days later, I would receive a new cord. Which was useless since I had several 5000 word papers to write then and there, and that laptop wouldn't work unless it was plugged into a wall. Ended up having to buy a cord in RadioShack.
So yeah, that's Ireland v. the States for you. I don't think it would be the same in Dublin, but I don't really like Dublin anyway.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
bb - I agree with you re Limerick. It has a fine city centre. In fact, architecturally much grander than Galway. (.....running for cover - but it's true.)
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Oh, and you can avoid traffic jams by going on the ring road. The "Stab City" name is a thing of the past, and it's a shame it's still referred to as such, even by one-off visitors. I've had some nice sessions there and have, in the past, spent a fair bit of time in Co. Lim'k.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
The obvious place to go for a quiet country holiday, with traditional music around if you want it, is of course Eastern Europe. This is because the Eastern Europeans are all over here. I gather there's now an acute shortage of plumbers and nurses in Poland for this reason.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
No toilets, no healthcare? not the place to get diarrhoea, then
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
I think I know where the old pubs are going. A lot of new pubs in America are bragging about their interiors being shipped over from Ireland, and using it as an argument that they offer an "authentic" Irish experience.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
My one visit was in 2004, and we spent most of our time in the Northwest around Sligo (and a couple days in Galway). This was in August--high season--and there were few tourists, the people were lovely, and there was good music to be found. Galway was fun, but quite a contrast from the more rural Sligo area. On our drive to Galway, Westport was where we first encountered tour buses and tourist mobs. (But the drive through Connemara was spectacular!)
By the way, we were put off by the entrance fee at the Cliffs of Moher (where hordes of American octegenarians were disgorging from tour buses), so we kept on down the road a bit and found a dirt road that led up to a cow fence. We hopped it and had a quiet picninc next to the tower that stands at cliff's edge.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by mcswiss
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
so rev is it fair to say that new ireland is doing a great impression of new england!
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by TOMMYB
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
About the drink driving. I don't think it is the admittedly gruesome awareness campaigns which are working as much as the fact that the law was recently changed so that the guards can now stop and test you for alcohol whenever they want to. Up until recently they needed a reason/excuse to stop you, like a broken headlight or similar so you were much less likely to be stopped.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by SL*
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Don't be lettin on about Limerick. You'll turn it into another Galway.
My father hung a plaque in Nancy Blakes 40 years ago with a saying about the "Fisherman...he riseth up early...." and all that. Nancy just passed on but the plaque survives hopefully. I'd appreciate anyone checking in to see it's still there and raising a pint in my family's honor.
And then there's Dolans. I love Limerick and wish I could go there now, especially in the spring. Of course having family there opens up the city's arms to ya.
BTW, on my last trip over (last year) they were building the Cliffs of Moher visitor center. It looked futuristic, yet buried into the side of the hill so as to be low profile. I thought that was a good idea. But I hope they are not ripping the money outa yer wallet over it??
PS. Here in Massachusetts we give directions to lost people like so "you go down here past the Dunkin Donuts and bear left...after you pass your 3rd Dunkin Donuts there is a fork...etc. etc."
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by saltcast
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
"so rev is it fair to say that new ireland is doing a great impression of new england!"
Well, unfortunately, I don't have enough experience with England to tell you the answer to that. But it certainly doesn't surprise me.
Not everything about the U.S. is bad, certainly. We enjoy a lot of creature comforts and handy amenities that make our quality of life quite nice. And it's good that other people are able to have the same kind of pleasures. Heck, every single place I stayed over two weeks in Ireland had "American style" showers, with loads of water pressure (which is different than the last time I was there).
But one problem that I have with the commercialization that has taken place in the U.S. over the last 30 years or so, is the homogenization of our regions. You can go into a town in Georgia, where the Wal Mart is next to the Office Max and Best Buy, and it looks exactly like a shopping center in Oregon.
I just hate to think that all the good parts of "Americanization" might also come with all the bad parts too. Sigh.
And SL*, that's actually rather frightening that the Gardaí can pull you over without probable cause. The police here need a reason to pull you over - but having said that, they can pretty much always find a reason if they try hard enough. Is there a legal blood alcohol content level in Ireland? Even at 3 or 4 hour long sessions, I don't think I saw anyone have more than one drink before they switched to the Lucozade if they were driving.
Pete
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Trying to avoid the unbridled 'Celtic Tiger', we went to Donegal (county and Donegal Town). Herself's family's paternal county. It was much lower key and the distance from hyperdevelopment to normal towns was shorter. Wonderful people who seem to be getting very wart as the development begins. Already saw some condos and commercial on Donegal Bay towards Slieve League.
However, in the American Irish press and RTE's syndicated show here 'Out of Ireland' Has been hyping Donegal very heavily.
Can you imagine a McDonalds on the square opposite the Abbey? Or in the spirit of the thread, a Dunkin Donuts opposite the Castle?
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
first paragraph, meant wary...not wart
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Pete,
As you know, I just came back from Dingle and Ennis and found the same things although on the fringes of the country (Dingle Peninsula) the changes do have a distinctive Irish flavor. For instance, there have been condom machines in the men's toilets for several years now, but very commonly you see only two slots offering condoms and the rest offering candy, for the children, I assume <G>
The publicans did complain about the dirnk driving campaign but the more popular pubs were still doing a fair business. Broadband is in Dingle, but not in Ballyferriter (yet) but since there are so many musicians in that area, it is not a bad thing.
But there are fewer and fewer shops operating on Irish time which is a loss.
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Another thing I noticed the last couple of years was the increased use of designated drivers.
# Posted on March 20th 2007 by saltcast
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
But to get back to the original comment.......Reverend, you kept saying "we..." . How is the lovely Zina, and why don't we hear from her any more ?
# Posted on March 21st 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Impressions of the "new Ireland"
Thanks for asking Guernsey Pete...
Zina is doing well, although unfortunately, she and I are no longer married - so you'll have to ask her why she's not around yourself. I'm sure she'd respond to a mail sent through thesession still
The "we" in the case of my recent trip actually refers to myself and Roger Landes, which made for a wild and wacky two weeks, lemme tall ya!
Pete
# Posted on March 21st 2007 by Reverend