How many of the non-Irish born trad musicians amongst you have never visited Ireland, or visited only once or twice for short periods? This includes Irish-Americans, in fact it especially includes Irish-Americans.
There is a good reason for me posting this question which I'll elaborate on after it's answered and don't worry I'm not going to condemn you if you've never visited Ireland!
I've only visited once and only after I had started learning to play. To be honest, the main reason I hadn't visited was that i was under the very mistaken impression that it wasn't oing to be terribly different from other places that I had already visited so it wasn't very high on the list.
Since I've been, I expect I'll go more. I very much enjoyed it. Also, I'm moving to Israel and while I hear that there is some ITM going on there (anyone looking to give fiddle lessons?) Israel isn't exactly famous for its Irish expat population—forutnately Ireland isn't too far so why not go back there when I ned another musical shot in the arm as it were?
Never been. Would love to go and stay long enough to take some lessons from someone and get a better feel for the country than a week's stay would give me.
Why haven't I been? Because it would be pretty expensive and I'm allergic to debt. I should have gone before the "Celtic Tiger" took off!
I think it might be important from a musical perspective. But then again, I think that with all the stellar Irish born musicians that live in cities like Boston and NY, it might do me just as much good musically to move visit one of those places! I'd miss out on the "real" Irish experience but no doubt it would be cheaper!
I've only been once, when I was 10 years old. Would love to go back, now that I'm a session musician, to play in a few. I haven't gone I guess because of work constraints, as well as financial ones.
I have been going there for on a yearly basis for the past six years. Nothing like it, especially the polkas and slides in Kerry. We just got back last saturday, as a matter of fact. It is a lot cheaper (and fewer tourists) this time of the year.
I've never been, but I'd really like to go. Especially for a goodly long time, like 6 months or so. But finding work to sustain myself there would be an issue.
I've never been, would love to go...you planning on paying my feckin' way? I can't afford to travel more than 2 states away let alone fly several thousand miles to the east to get to Ireland. Plus, paying for my wife and son to come along will cost you even more...
Then again, there is a ton of bluegrass and old timey in my area and I can guarantee you I play ITM a lot better than those musical genres. I'll be curious to see your rationale for this post, and highly disappointed if you're not buying plane tickets for me to come over.
I went to Ireland on my credit card. With a one way plane ticket, no house, no job, no money. It was tough, no denying – really, really tough – but in the end and I’ve never played so many tunes in my life and my playing improved in a big way. Not trying to get a dig - but its about priorities - and if going to Ireland was a top one, you'd find a way.
"I see your are in Dublin so tell us were you ever in Ireland?"
have you guys noticed that no matter where you go, there is always this kind of attitude. If you are not from the bush in Australia - then you are not a 'real' Australian. But if you are from Tassie - then even if you are in the bush on the Mainland...you are still a mainlander. Makes me laugh.
Visited Dublin for a few days, before I got serious about The Music.
But I I have learned a lot about The Music from knowlegeable players here at home--both Irish-born and others.
If this is about how "you have to be Irish to play The Music," I disagree. Music stands on its own. When you hear an audio recording of a tune, there's no sure way to tell the age, gender, or nationality of the player--only whether it's well played or not.
I've been to Ireland several times over the past 30 years. The first itme I went, I was on a mission to find Yeats. I spent several weeks in Sligo and visited many places Yeats had been. There was a wonderful small library at the time in Sligo with many of Yeats' books and furniture. What an incredible thing it was to sit in a chair that Yeats had sat in, reading his books.
But it was in Sligo that I heard Irish music for the first time. I happened into a pub where Stockton's Wing was playing. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. What a great introduction to Irish music. I was hooked and took up the fiddle again when I came home. I went back to Sligo a few years later with a few tunes under my belt and had the great fortune to meet Joe O'Dowd. I stayed for 3 months and played tunes with him several times a week. What a great and generous man he was.
When I get there now, I visit old friends, play a few tunes, and try to see more of the country. I'll be there again in a few weeks, visiting friends in Cork and hiking around the Burren. I hope to get to Northern Ireland sometime. I would like to meet Mr. Bliss sometime. And Ptarmigan, too. And everyone else up there.
I'm interested to know why you asked, fisbee, so please let us know soon.
Spent a good chunk of time there a year or so ago. Most enjoyable and productive time was 6 months spent in Ballycastle (up Antrim!!).
I maintain that a period of imersion is the best thing you can possibly do for your playing.
I've never been in Ireland! It's very far from here and the trip is very expensive... but I'm going on june!
In my case it's going to be a very interesting in a musical perspective because it's all there! Here, we don't have sessions, concerts or gigs and we're very few... so, yes, I think it's going to be a really amazing!
soooooo, fribee.... What's the 'good reason' for the question then?! The suspense is drive'n me knuts!
(Lived in Ennis/Galway for a year, spent far to much time with bb so my music was actually savagely harmed by the experience... I decided to go back again last year to cure myself of this, got on the plane, looked left and wouldn't ya bloody know it, there bb was. ah well, i'll get good next year.)
I've been a few times in he last 10 yrs, mainly to hunt out old family haunts, though the music was never too far away. Not been since the arrival of my daughters. Would love to visit again. Brother-in-law teaches at one of the Unis and would like to go and take the girls to visit their cousins in UK and Ireland, but there's lots of other things to pay for!
In Tokyo, there are few musicians who visits Ireland on regular basis. Most of the players have been there only once or twice, and some of them never. And not a few of them have greater understanding and appreciation of the music than native Irish people.
I've been to Ireland many times but don't know how much that has affected my playing. I'm actually influenced by the Irish musicians with Yorkshire accents.
Ireland is a major rip-off from the car hire at the airport to the some little ole lady giving you the top of the morning and charging you 45€ for a bed and breakfast that is worth 25 at the most.
Everything is overpriced including the beer, most of the pubs have some little touristy band playing and you have to know where you're going to find a good session.
I try to get to Willy Clancy Week every 2 or 3 years (my constitution couldn't stand going more often - at the end of our last stay my friend said, "If I opened a vein right now nothing would come out but Guinnes and diddly-dee.")
I've been to Ireland many times (due to Ryanair ) and every time I went there my fiddle playing improved considerably. I try to go to workshops and sessions as often as possible. I think it is important to hear and feel the "real stuff".
We have a lot of bands in Germany who play Irish music, but a lot of them do sound German, not Irish. I think the reason for this is that some of the musicians have never been to Ireland and even don't listen to Irish music that much.
Apart from this I just love the country and really enjoy to be there, even if some places really are major rip-offs.
Lived in Ireland for a year in the early 70"s, called Ireland "home" for holidays till the early 80's. Sadly haven't been back since. Are you offering airline tickets, Frisbee? If so, consider me, would love to hang me hat in auld Ireland again.
I believe Frisbee has relocated to Spiddal so I guess that might count as "Ireland".
I'm wondering what the reason for the question is too!
Having met and played with quite a few American musicians in the US I would say that there is no need to come to Ireland if you want to become an excellent player of Irish music. In fact in some ways the music is "better" over there (depending on your point of view) as people seem to be more interested in preserving older styles of playing. Not to say that the music has crystallised or remained stagnant, I hasten to add!
Do you mean a person who originates from another geographical location, a person who genetically different from you, someone who was brought up in a different culture to you or a person from a different “nation” (in the modern political sense)?
Is Belfast foreign if one is in Cork? It’s all Ireland although politically the north is “foreign”.
Is a Muslim Irishman born in Dublin a foreigner? (Especially if he’s a good piper!)
What about the typical so-called American-Irish person who had one great-great-grandfather who emigrated from Kilkenny 150 years ago and has 15 other ancestors at the great-great-grandparent level from fifteen other places and cultures but just happened to retain the Irish name by a sheer fluke of decendency and the western/ Christian tendency to keep the paternal name?
What about Spike Milligan?
I live in South London, possibly the most culturally and ethnically diverse place on the planet, and you never hear anyone use the word “foreign”. In a multicultural society such as South London , the world of ITM and the internet no-one and everyone is foreign.
Sureal moment ... I played a slow tune the other night (scotland) and this Irish fella who was in bangin' a drum said to me, thanks very much, it remeinded him of home. It was a French tune.
I visited Ireland once for a week in 2000 with my wife. We enjoyed the trip immensely. We listened to a number of excellent sessions. We travelled from Dublin to Clare to Connemara to Donegal, then to Belfast along the north coast, and then back to Dublin for our return flight home to NY.
We will return when time and money allows.
How is it possible to travel from Dublin to Clare to Connemara to Donegal to Belfast to Dublin in a week? We had enough trouble trying to get to Connemara for a day while spending two weeks in Clare. Our hope had been to make it an overnight trip, but we wound up only being able to pull ourselves away from Clare for a day.
To answer the question (or, rather, to say "don't count me in the number you asked for"), I've been to Ireland seven times - the first time for five days in May (kind of like halfwaythere's trip), but other than that for at least two weeks at a time, all in December and January.
It is expensive, Shylock, but that's because the economy is booming. Minimum wage is roughly double what it is in the U.S. B&Bs are pricey in the cities, but more reasonable in smaller towns. The real lodging bargain is to go in the off-season, when it's possible to rent a cottage for under 300 euro per week. If you share that with three friends, it comes to under 11 euro per day per person. Then you can shop and cook for yourselves, saving a fortune on restaurant food.
I have some very happy memories of holidays in Ireland 1977, 78 and 80. (Ballyshannon Festival!) Seeing the music in its original habitat has changed my attitude towards it, and probably my playing too.
I haven't been for over 20 years now and I think I might be horrified by the changes. The country I really miss though is England (including morris men, tee hee).
I was in Latvia when I got seriously into Irish music, having thitherto dipped into a variety of flavours, albeit with a particular fondness for Irish and Scots. At that point I had never been to Ireland - my main reason being that I had chosen to go east instead of west and ended up in Latvia. My first visit to Ireland was in 1999, towards the end of my two-year stay in Latvia. I'm still getting over that first visit. I've been back almost every summer (all except 2005, when I was going south intead of west) since.
I would say, however, that I have a savagely warped view of Ireland. I have only ever been there from July to September, and much of my time there has been spent fleadh-hopping.
"do you think it is important for you to do so (visit Ireland - ed.) in the future from a musical perspective?"
It depends what your musical objectives are. I suspect one of the ultimate goals of any musician is to communicate something of him/herself through music, as through speech. The process by which each of us learns to do it is a very personal thing. For some of us - probably most who post here, given the nature of our common interest - this involves trying to understand a particular musical tradition, and the social and cultural traditions surrounding it. I think the only way achieve such an understanding is by being immersed in the tradition(s). If my goal were to play like the musicians of current generations in Ireland, I believe the only way I could come close to achieving it would be by going to live permanently in Ireland, and playing regularly with the kind of musicians I sought to emulate. If I were more interested in older styles of traditional music, it might be as well to mix with Irish immigrant musicians in, say, London or Chicago. Living, as I do now, in the Irish music desert that is Mid-Wales, I am forced to delve deeper into my own inner musical reserves.
Personally, whilst I mourn the loss of the insomniac trad scene I was so used to when living in London, I think I am in quite a beneficial position. I still make regular visits to London, I am within easy reach of Ireland and I also have the added ingredient of *quiet*, in which my musicality (if I may be so bold as to make a claim to such a thing) can sleep or run riot, as the mood takes it. The idea of moving to Ireland has seemed attractive to me on many occasions. But the question is, do I love Ireland and all things Irish enough to want to accept it, warts and all? I can get warts in London or Wales, if I want them. I think perhaps, all things considered, my rose-tinted version of Ireland does more for my music.
I'll be making my first trip to Ireland this fall. I have a cottage rented for 2 weeks in Puckane, County Tipperary. I can't wait. For three days, I'll be at the Fiddler's Retreat in Thurles.
I've been to Ireland once (for about 8 days) and have booked tickets to go back in May (this time for 9 days). I'd go for longer time periods but I don't have the money, nor the time off from work.
Blimey, it gets stranger and stranger. On one side we have people saying that Irish culture in general enhances, if not their music, but at least their enjoyment of it. And now we have someone saying their fictional view of Ireland enhances their music. I'll be ruminating on this one for a while I think.
I've been to Ireland once 2 years ago... spent time in Mayo, Galway and Clare. Loved every minute... except the time on Clare Island when a guy loved everyone at 11 am... and hated all Americans at 1:00 pm... big drinker, he was... anyway I learned a lot about the people and their attitude toward music. I also learned why people right about the places there... we have the same kinds of places in the US, but no one ever writes about "The green and red of Beaver" (I lived in Beaver, PA... I'm not making that up)... I'd like to write a song about it, but the Google searches would come up with very diverse results.
I have never been to Ireland. I consider it to be one of the great failures of my life.
I can't imagine why a player of the Music would *not* feel compelled to head over. Seems to me that, at least to satiate one's thirst for the stuff, you must experience this at the source. I suppose it's like learning a language: Fairly hard to become fluent in, say, Swahili without heading to Africa for a bit. We're lucky here in the states to have so many Irish ex-pats to maintain a kind of first-hand tradition, and of course an endless supply if Irish Americans who were raised on the stuff to one degree or another. But, at least from my own perspective, I won't feel as if I'm "in the club" until I've really been in its birthplace, surrounded with an almost palpable sense of tradition and respect for the music.
First of all, you don't need to love music to want to go to Ireland---it's a fantastic country! Honestly, it's one of the few countries I've been to in Europe where they really like Americans, probably because so many of them have relatives over here. I went once and I loved everything about it---the people the most by far, but the culture, the landscape, the architecture, the Guinness---what's not to like?! I can't wait to go back.
But musically, that's a whole different world, there would be so much to learn.
So Frisbee, what gives---why the question? What did you want to know?
I've been twice, first time was for 6 weeks and didn't really play many tunes in those days (I was 15) next time was 2 years ago for 7 months- based mainly in Galway. Funny I reckon I might of even seen bb and SirNose........
Anyway, last visit I played more than is even imaginable and it was awesome. Learnt so many great tunes and met loads of great people.
Just got back from my second trip to Ireland. Was there for 2 weeks, and got a lot of playing in (and 2200km on the rental car).
I actually feel like it messed up my playing a bit - but only temporarily. I played with several extremely excellent banjo players, and decided there were a few things that I needed work on (more compact,efficient right hand motion, and a somewhat lighter touch). Any time you try to change some fundamentals of your playing, it can be a painful process... But I will be better for it in the long run.
The experience was musically inspiring, and I've made a goal of getting there at least once a year from now on.
I'm curious, does he mean musicians playing *Irish* traditional music, or persons from countries other than Ireland, playing the traditional music of their home countries? Given that this is a forum for discussing (largely) Irish music, we'd assume he means ITM but wouldn't any traditional musician be considered a tradtional musician, regardless of locale?
Never been, btw, last six years have been too busy with exams and hospitals. I love travel but have a few other places on the top of "the list"...
Fris is just trying to get a rise out of us before we retreat into the pubs for a weekend of drinking...
Sure, I've been to Ireland by sea and by air and through the countryside by bicycle. I've drank pints in Lisdoonvarna, slept on Inishmore, and stayed up way too late playing tunes all over County Clare. Does that make me an honorary Irishman? Hardly. But then, as an American, I didn't grow up in a coal mining town, or in some dark hollow, on 57th Street in NYC, or somewhere on the range. Yet, I've played all those styles and more.
I think one of things I learned in Ireland is that, like most cultures, they like you if you put in some effort to learn about and respect for their culture, and that I already had a pretty good handle on the musical style. That doesn't mean I've got it down, but I feel pretty good about my progress, and confident enough to not let someone anyone else make me feel badly about playing Irish and other Celtic styles, as long as I'm listening and trying to play it with respect and feeling.
I was there for 3 weeks in the fall of 1996. Loved it and would love to return. Perhaps I'll be able to one day, if the dollar's exchange rate against the Euro gets better.
Of course it would improve some aspects of my playing if I used my time there well. And it would probably increase my understanding of Irish music in ways I can't predict.
Been there a few times. I just love it. I needed more and more money every time, unfortunately. Didn't go to enough sessions. Ennis and Doolin were great. I want to keep going until I croak.
The country is changing fast, though. Last time I was at Shannon airport I heard American tourists lamenting the disappearance of the traditional rural Ireland they used to know (keep them poor and picturesque!?).
And now global warming is upon us ! Can you imagine the hills of Kerry covered with vineyards ? In a few decades.
Ohh for a lovely glass of Slíabh Lúachra chardonnay! Or a Punchestown Pinot Noir.
Well since Frisball isn't around and I know him to be a straightforward kind of a chap.
I reckon he's talking about people who play traditional Irish music and who don't come from Ireland, when he talks about "foreign people who play traditional music".
He paints in broad strokes (i.e. he's a bit simple!)
Right I'm off to the Porterhouse to drink Porter (surprise surprise) before the nit pickers start to ask the inevitable questions: what is Irish music? is it Irish? Is it music, even? Why is St Patrick Welsh? Where does Graham Norton buy his clothes? Does he buy them or are they donated? Who told Louis Walsh he knows stuff about music? Is the Holy Trinity incarnate in the form of Jeremy, Michael Gill and Bodhrán Bliss? What happens to the stuff that used to be in the holes in Polo mints? If Northern Ireland is the Teddy Bear's Head, does that make Dublin the teddy Bear's rectum?
Etc.
Happy St Patrick's Day everyone; Lá fheile Phádraig shona daoibh uilig.
Is it on the cards that would-be immigrants to Ireland might have to sit an Irishness Test?
The British government has toyed with this ridiculous idea (i.e., of setting a Britishness Test). The theme is worthy of the talents of Spike Milligan and others such.
Ok now that there’s been plenty of answers to my question here’s the reasons for me asking it.
Someone (probably joking) asked me if I’d been to Ireland seeing as I’m from Dublin, in a way he kind of nailed my point on the head because it is only through going to the real heartlands of traditional music in the West of Ireland that I feel I’ve gone some way to gaining a proper understanding and appreciation of traditional Irish music. In effect even though I’m Irish I am a foreigner to traditional Irish music as I wasn’t brought up in an area where the music is strong.
It is only by going to the West of Ireland that I’ve had some really special musical experiences that I simply haven’t experienced elsewhere. I’ve enjoyed many good sessions in Dublin, London, Paris and New York and I’ve played with some really great musicians however the music I’ve experienced in the West of Ireland is simply on another level, it’s kind of a spiritual thing that’s hard to describe. A few times I’ve experienced a kind of magical session where something seems to take over the musicians, for some reason this has only happened to me in the West of Ireland, but it has happened with such vastly differing styles as those in East Clare and South Donegal, so it’s not necessarily about a musical style. There’s also a way of playing that breaks out of the formulaic play every tune three times or less. In some of the best sessions I’ve been in tunes have been repeated over and over and the level of variation, expression and build up created brings the music to another level, you don’t hear this style in many recordings or concerts.
Does anyone understand this? Has anyone who does understand this experienced something similar outside of Ireland?
Part of something Conan mentioned also influenced my question. He mentioned that in the US he noticed a liking for a particularly old style of playing, to me this is great if it is genuinely authentic, but I’ve noticed that one of the offshoots of this search for old authenticity is an extreme conservatism about Irish music. Am I wrong about this? There seems to be a certain trend towards this conservatism and perhaps the negative side of this conservatism is that it neglects the fact that innovation is what has kept this music growing from Michael Coleman to Ed Reavy to John Doherty to Tommy Potts to Matt Molloy to Martin Hayes etc. All these musicians have extended the music in some way, do people really realise how important innovation is to the tradition? Are people afraid to experiment with the music because they are afflicted by this search for authenticity? When I talk about experimenting with the music I don’t mean experimenting in a kind of fusion with other music styles, that’s another thing altogether. I mean experimenting with the music to take it beyond the conventions and rules that have developed partly through competition culture. Such rules didn’t really exist before competitions became prominent.
I wonder in seeking this old authenticity and striving to play in a style suitable for competitions are people missing the point a bit? There are musicians who play in quite an old style but do something new with it. Breda Keville’s recent CD is full of old authenticity but there’s something really fresh about it too, perhaps it’s the amount of more recently composed tunes on it from people like Paddy Fahey and Ed Reavy.
In my experience there is a huge amount of conservatism about Irish music and from reading some of the comments on this site this conservatism seems to be rife outside of Ireland. So is this the result of distance from the source of the music? Is it the result of competition culture?
I know this conservatism exists in Ireland to, but it really is only isolated to certain individuals who in my opinion don’t know what they are talking about. I’m not referring to someone like Tony McMahon because he is actually quite innovative in his approach. He’s often labelled a purist but I think his purist attitude is more to do with his attitude to commercial trad.
So, I suppose the main point I’m trying to make is I feel that until you spend a good amount of time in the West of Ireland amongst great musicians there is going to be something sorely missing in your appreciation of traditional Irish music. This is not to say you won’t reach a high level of playing without coming here and I’m certainly not saying you can’t play Irish music properly if you’re not Irish, but there is a higher level to be attained which I suppose people will only understand when they discover it through coming to the West of Ireland and experiencing what I’ve experienced. It’s one of the main reasons I moved here.
Anyway sorry if this offends any of you nice people out there, it’s not meant to be offensive, it’s really meant to inspire people to come searching for what I and I’m sure many others have found in the West of Ireland.
Also by the West of Ireland I mean the whole west, north, central and south from Donegal to Cork, not just the central west as promoted on www.irelandwest.ie!
To bounce off of what frisbee is saying, I think it may be fair to say that there is something special about playing in a place that is steeped in the milieu as opposed to anywhere else without that meaning that there is something "not good" about the playing that goes on anywhere else.
Diiferent but similar: i grew up dancing merengue and salsa with my family. When I go to PR and we get together with friends and the extended family music starts playing and we start dancing. None of us is the worlds best but we have a good time and the evening flies by. It is as natural for us as walking.
In the states, I'll sometimes go with friends to a latin club and I'll be dancing with people that have "learned" Merengue and Salsa. Some of them look a lot better than me doing it and have much more technical skill—but the evening just feels a little different. There is the slightest accent. It isn't bad and I still have a great time, but it is different.
matan fiddler makes a good point relating it to merengue and salsa which I'll add to in some way. I love certain African music styles but I've never been to Africa, it is one of my greatest ambitions to do so as I really don't feel I could understand the music properly without being in the places it originated. I've learnt from the records and can sound authentic ( a South African guy once told me when I play african style guitar I sounded just like a township guitarist!) But really there's so much more I could learn. I think the same thing applies to Irish music.
As for the Glens of Antrim, I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant about Antrim music as I've never been there and was not aware of any particular Antrim style, but to be fair it's not exactly known as one of the heartlands of traditional Irish music is it?!
I'm sure there's great music there mind you and look forward to learning about it someday.
Naw, truth is, it's not really in the same league as Clare or Galway frisbee - that's just me pullin' your leg again! However, if your ever up this way, please give me a shout, by all means - I'd be happy to show you round.
Excellent questions, frisbee. I don’t know the answers to any of them, but what does come to mind is what happened to Scottish music in Canada. Much Scottish music would have been lost forever if not for the people in Cape Breton---many of the tunes they play are the same as they were played in the Highlands before the Clearances. It’s always been a geographically isolated place, so it was easy for the music to stay true to itself. (they did have the French Acadian influence, but that’s another subject…)
It’s much harder to keep a tradition from other cultural influences in places like New York or Chicago---maybe that’s why the musicians outside of Ireland develop such a conservative/traditional approach.
Good post, frisbee. It confirms what I suspected but was starting to doubt. That there really still is something to be gained from a stay in the West of Ireland.
And yes, I feel that there is a lot of conservatism in the US Irish music scene. It's very much (I think) a feeling of having to "prove" yourself. Prove that you can learn to play the "pure drop" and if you can't then you're a fake or something. I thought it was just in California but maybe not. It becomes less about the music and the community feeling and more about how "authentic" you are. I get the feeling that it's more laid back and friendly in the west of Ireland.
I don't think this conservative approach is traditional, that's the problem. I think the music has always evolved and some people don't get this and so end up in a kind of time warp where they think the way they are playing is more valid and 'traditional' because it is exactly like the old recordings of Coleman or Morrison!
Maybe a lot of players outside Ireland have conservative attitudes to the music because they've started playing it later in life than a lot of Irish have, so they're preoccupied for a long time with mastering the basics, getting up a repertoire and "playing it properly" / "getting it right". Lots of players in W. Ireland will have got all that sorted in their teens, I should imagine, and moved on into musical freedom.
Meanwhile, the plane featured on that Irelandwest connection looks about to lose a painful argument with a cliff. Makes me think twice about flying from N. England to Knock...
The west of Ireland is definitely very friendly and laid back in general, mind you if as an outsider you go into a local session and try to impose your style on it then you'll run into problems! If you do come to Ireland make sure you do your research before hand, learn about good spots to play, learn about local styles as much as you can before coming, then when you experience the music in its locale you'll have an unforgetable experience, by the way it took me about five or six years of repeatedly going to the west before this stuff clicked with me, so it takes time!
nicholas, I think that's probably right. Starting later, being preoccupied/obsessed with getting it right, ect. It's made me downright mental at times, and I'm really just getting to the "musical freedom" part. Relaxing and having fun with it and with playing with others. Not worrying so much about my "authenticity" or anyone elses, either. At least that's the attitude I'm aiming for!
frisbee, thanks for the advice. I'd probably just listen, mostly, until I got a feel for things. I won't have five or six years to experience it though,unless I win the lotto
To quote my friend Llig, what a load of twaddle Trust a Dub.
Manchester, Leeds, London, New York, Boston, Seattle, BELFAST, Co Antrim, (in Portglenone everyone seems to play), the hotbed that is the North Down coast, played mostly by those not normally associated with the music, South Derry, Tyrone, Armagh, and do not forget DUBLIN.
I found more music in Manchester than you would find in the whole of Ireland. Mind you, I started the thread "Is ITM wasted on the Irish".
We spent a week or so in Ireland, North and South, while touring in Europe with motorcycles, me and my girlfriend. I can't remember the town, maybe Limerick or Kilkenny or thereparts, but we had a nice experience in a small pub where we were quality and quantity testing the Irish beer so to speak. While it was not yet the closing time, the bar keeper closed the doors letting no more customers to come in and a group of trad player started their session. A very pleasant experience and sadly the only time we heard trad players play during our stay in Ireland.
Ok
Just quickly ran through this thread and I have to say I've been to Ireland almost every year for the past several. I've sat in many seisuns. I've found the "magical seisuns" in so many places and those not necessarily in Ireland. The most important thing I've learned in this thread is that
Conan and I both go to the Porterhouse!!!!!!!!!
Of course we're on different continents but does that really matter?
Hi Conan!
I'm from Newfoundland and never been to Ireland but would like to go. I would guess Newfoundland is as close Ireland as you can get without being there. We have a huge Irish music following and we even have our own century old Newfoundland music derived from some of yours.
Newfoundland is very close to Ireland, in terms of the amount of people playing trad and the accents....I swear some of them up on the Irish loop - you'd never know that they had grown up in Newfoundland.....very, very close to Irish.
Well bodhrán bliss you obviously don't get what I'm on about if you think you can find the kind of music I'm thinking of in Dublin. I'm from Dublin and as much as I know the city and the main hotspots for trad I find it really hard to find a good session, some of the great sessions I'm talking about in the West featured musicians who play in Dublin all the time, when they play in Dublin they seem to be going through the motions, yet when they're in the West they seem to transform, not gonna mention any names.
Also its defintely not in London, there's some very good sessions in London but not the kind I'm on about. You've probably missed my point really, I'm not saying there's no good music outside the West of Ireland, I'm saying there is another level to be found there which is quite elusive, it doesn't even have to involve local musicians. One of the best sessions I've ever had was in Miltown Malbay with two Dubliners and an American (who lives in Ireland), can't explain exactly but there was just something magical going on that night and no I wasn't on magic mushrooms!
But anyway I suppose since you're a bodhrán player bliss there's some other kick you get out of sessions. I quite like the bodhrán when its played well, but for some reason the bodhrán is rarely present at the great sessions I'm talking about! Main exception being Séamus Ó Kane who adds a beautiful bounce to any session he's in.
Conservatism in a tradition is one of the things that keeps it alive and recognisable. However, too much can also kill it.
I am the sort of player who has always been drawn to "old" styles of music, to less commercial styles of presentation, to solo playing, etc. That said, when I was younger I also really enjoyed hearing a lot of innovation applied to this music. I enjoy it less as I get older, but always enjoy it most when the innovators show a real love of the older styles they are playing around with. If they seem embarassed by it or appear to have little interest in it - that's a turn off.
I am an American (long resident in Scotland) but I have never been around the competition scene, and am not worried about pretending to be something I'm not. I just have a deep love of old fashioned, rough edged trad music.
I would love to experience the kind of sessions frisbee describes finding in the west of Ireland. Even if only as a listener. That kind of "experimentation" is the thing that has kept me interested in Irish music for all these decades.
Hey kris you misunderstand me a bit, more and more I prefer less commercial styles myself and my favourite recordings and concerts of late have been solo's or duo's not bands. The innovation I'm talking about isn't what people often describe as innovative these days (i.e. Lunasa/Flook etc.) I'm talking about innovation within the purer style and the great sessions I'm talking about aren't necessarily innovative, in fact I think they hark back to an old way of playing that is dying out, yet within this tradition there is always room for experimentation, it's just not an extreme, immediately obvious innovation. It's a subtle change, as you'd expect from such a subtle tradition!
For example Ed Reavys music which was mostly composed in the 1950's and 60's was I think highly innovative within the boundaries of the tradition, yet nowadays his music is played so much that people don't realise how recently it was written, some people know a lot of Reavy's tunes without knowing he wrote them and thus presume them to be ancient. Yet if you compare some of his more adventurous tunes to tunes found in the old collections you'll see how innovative he was.
This is what I'm talking about regarding innovation within the tradition. The great session thing I'm talking about is not really connected to innovation although it can be! I guess the main point I'm trying to make is that some of the conventions which have become standard in sessions are not really that 'traditional' if you consider traditional to mean an old way of playing, certainly the way of playing a set of three reels with each repeated three times is not such an old 'traditional' practice. It is probably the result of the recording age when music tracks were by necessity of a certain length. The great sessions I'm referring to can have a whole rake of tunes one after another, each of which is played many times with the sets going on for quite a long time. I've experienced this in Clare and Donegal in particular and it can be just astounding when it works. Try it yourself sometime on your own and then imagine what it'd be like with a bunch of great musicians sitting in a nice comfy old pub in the Irish countryside.
Morning star, I'm afraid the thing about these sessions is that they are elusive, you can't plan them, they just 'happen', you have to be in the right place at the right time. To play in them you also have to be in a certain mindset and know the tunes etc., but you don't have to play in them to experience them. All I can tell you is specific times and places I've found them.
Feakle in East Clare both during and after the Feakle Festival, Ennis during the Ennis trad fest, Milltown Malbay, Crosses of Anagh and Mullach during the Willy Clancy Week, Bunbeg during and after the Frankie Kennedy Festival,Spiddal in Galway right now, and Glencolmcille during the fiddle week there.
There are a few players who have this nack of picking great tunes and playing in such a great way, these include Pat O'Connor who lives in Feakle, the Keville sisters from Clare, James Byrne from Glencolumcille, Charlie Lennon in Spiddal, Paul Ó Shaughnessy, Harry Bradley and Deremy Diamond often have brilliant sessions in Donegal, the list goes on.
There are a few people in particular I just love playing with, not just cos they're my friends but because they have great tunes and a great approach to the music these include Liz Coleman, Sheenagh Vallely and of course the great maestro himself Conan McDonnell
If you see any of these names mentioned for a session I highly recommend going along to listen first and then ask to join if you think you'd fit in well, be very careful here though. If you ask to join they're unlikely to refuse you but if you're not on the same wavelength you could ruin the session. Most of the people I've mentioned are very friendly but I think all of them can get annoyed by someone gatecrashing their session in a tasteless way, although Conan and myself have been known to tastelessly gatecrash sessions ourselves!
Anyway that's the best advice I can give for where to find these sessions, the chances are if you dedicate yourself to the music and explore the West of Ireland you'll eventually come across what I'm talking about, it'll just happen one day and it'll only be afterwards when it'll really sink in that you've experienced what I'm talking about.
As for trying to find somewhere with cheap rent I suggest going to India where you'll probably find some really transcendental musical experiences but they won't involve Irish music!
These elusive, fantastic moments happen fairly often in certain Québecois sessions in Montreal when experienced musicians let go and play a tune or set of tunes repeatedly until a huge momentum is built up. It's all about passion and letting the music take over. Sometimes the music is smooth as can be, at other times quite rough. Any *crookedness* is now conventionalised by tradition and everyone is pretty much on the same page in playing crooked tunes in a similar way. The result is exhilerating when it happens.
I've been fortunate enough to have traveled Ireland 7 times in 12 yrs..But I tell ya this last trip in Nov..(staying with friends here and there even) nearly broke me..I had to get a second job when I got home... I think my next musical vacation will most likely be to Nova Scotia...Im glad I got to see ole Ireland when it was affordible...
I missed the boat on that one. It's more than just about musical tourism(!). That level of interaction you are talking about Frisbee can also be found in places like Cajun country, south cental Louisiana, or for that matter jazz circles in New York, LA, or Chicago.
Whenever seasoned musicians are completely familiar with a musical landscape they can anticipate variations within given tunes, and not necessarily tunes they are all that familiar with. The boundaries at that level are intuitive. It's the beauty of music, Ha!
By the way, I am reading Last Night's Fun by Ciaran Carson, highly recommended. And very much to the point.
Ah, Frisbee, it is atmosphere you are talking about, not music. I am always disappointed in the West of Ireland, especially Co Galway, and Co mayo is my second home.
And Seamus O'Kane would be up there with the likes of me, different type of playing, sounds like a bass guitar with Seamus, but excellent.
Apart from the fact that I play other instruments, hoiw the hell does being a bodhran player give someone a different perspective on a session. If it is good, it's good, whether you play pipes or spoons.
No bodhran bliss it is a combination of music and atmosphere and the music creates the atmosphere in such a big way. I really don't think you've a clue what I'm talking about. particularly if you are always disappointed in the West of Ireland. that's why i think you get a different type of kick out of trad to me which is fair enough and good luck to you if you get great enjoyment out of your sessions wherever they are.
I generally have a geat time no matter where I go too, but my main point which you still don't seem to be getting is that there is just another level I've experienced in the West and experiencing it has made me convinced there's something special about trad in the West.
So if your style is different to Seamus, would I be wrong in guessing that your style of bodhran playing is loud and busy? If so then I don't think you could understand the kind of music I'm talking about.
And, of course you have a different perspective on a session being a bodhrán player. Your instruments role in a session has a big bearing on the effect the session has on you. I experience sessions very differently when I'm backing as opposed to when I'm playing tunes, so since the bodhrán is a rhythm/backing instrument you are unlikely to know what it's like to play the tunes in a session, it is a very different thing, particularly because the backers never determine the music that is going to be played, its always the tune players.
Anyway, perhaps some day we'll meet in a magical session somewhere and we can get over this petty squabble! Happy Paddys day!
Frisbee - (if you're still there after 24 hours) I did understand you correctly, I think, just want off at a bit of a tangent. I don't really go to sessions much - I can't be bothered with a lot of the relatively recent session traditions (like the sets and repeats thing), the egos, the big groups and big mix of instruments. I realise that I miss out on some good stuff, too, by not going, but that's just how I am.
I long for playing situations like the ones you describe. I think it has a lot to do with space. Particularly in cities, people are all crowded in together, rushing about, competing for everything - a seat, a parking space, a chance to start a set....
ha! kris u just caught me as I was about to log off, funny thing about the sessions I'm talking about is that one of them featured just four musicians, another featured about 40 playing almost every instrument imaginable and another featured around 20 fiddles and nothing else!
I understand where you're coming from about the relatively recent session traditions, it can be hard to challenge these traditions when you get stuck in the middle. Some people don't understand the concept of repeating a tune lots of times and give you really strange looks if you play a tune more than three times, I guess they've just been listening to bands too much!
kris, i notice you're not keen on the smoke in pub sessions in Scotland, well if you come over here that problem will be solved, smokng is banned in pubs!
Right now I am going to go offline and I don't think I'll add any more to ths discussion, I think enoughs been said and I've certainly made my point. So thanks everyone for contributing, it was fun and illuminating
Frisbee likes the West of Ireland appears to be the point of this thread.
No-one plays anything, and I mean no-one, at my sessions without my say so. They wouldn't have a clue if I wasn't leading them.
Seamus O'Kane is a bit muted for my taste, if you cannot be heard you are merely taking up a seat. When organised poroperly, he is great, like a BASS GUITAR, as I said earlier, RATHER THAN the "normal" bodhran rhythms. You assumed I meant quiet. I didn't.
Never been to Ireland, would like to go, but probably never will, my wife doesn't like to travel overseas. Fortunately, folks around here have brought the music of Ireland to many pubs within driving distance of my home, so I am content with my lot.
A Question for Foreign trad musicians
A Question for Foreign trad musicians
How many of the non-Irish born trad musicians amongst you have never visited Ireland, or visited only once or twice for short periods? This includes Irish-Americans, in fact it especially includes Irish-Americans.
There is a good reason for me posting this question which I'll elaborate on after it's answered and don't worry I'm not going to condemn you if you've never visited Ireland!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Just to add to that, if you haven't visited why not and do you think it is important for you to do so in the future from a musical perspective?
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I was in Ireland once, and hope to go again this summer...
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Red Crow
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've only visited once and only after I had started learning to play. To be honest, the main reason I hadn't visited was that i was under the very mistaken impression that it wasn't oing to be terribly different from other places that I had already visited so it wasn't very high on the list.
Since I've been, I expect I'll go more. I very much enjoyed it. Also, I'm moving to Israel and while I hear that there is some ITM going on there (anyone looking to give fiddle lessons?) Israel isn't exactly famous for its Irish expat population—forutnately Ireland isn't too far so why not go back there when I ned another musical shot in the arm as it were?
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by matan_fiddler
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Never been. Would love to go and stay long enough to take some lessons from someone and get a better feel for the country than a week's stay would give me.
Why haven't I been? Because it would be pretty expensive and I'm allergic to debt. I should have gone before the "Celtic Tiger" took off!
I think it might be important from a musical perspective. But then again, I think that with all the stellar Irish born musicians that live in cities like Boston and NY, it might do me just as much good musically to move visit one of those places! I'd miss out on the "real" Irish experience but no doubt it would be cheaper!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by soft black stars
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've only been once, when I was 10 years old. Would love to go back, now that I'm a session musician, to play in a few. I haven't gone I guess because of work constraints, as well as financial ones.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by irishfiddler32
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I see your are in Dublin so tell us were you ever in Ireland?
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I have been going there for on a yearly basis for the past six years. Nothing like it, especially the polkas and slides in Kerry. We just got back last saturday, as a matter of fact. It is a lot cheaper (and fewer tourists) this time of the year.
MIke Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've never been, but I'd really like to go. Especially for a goodly long time, like 6 months or so. But finding work to sustain myself there would be an issue.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Brown Creeper
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've never been, would love to go...you planning on paying my feckin' way? I can't afford to travel more than 2 states away let alone fly several thousand miles to the east to get to Ireland. Plus, paying for my wife and son to come along will cost you even more...
Then again, there is a ton of bluegrass and old timey in my area and I can guarantee you I play ITM a lot better than those musical genres. I'll be curious to see your rationale for this post, and highly disappointed if you're not buying plane tickets for me to come over.
Eric
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Jayhawk
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I went to Ireland on my credit card. With a one way plane ticket, no house, no job, no money. It was tough, no denying – really, really tough – but in the end and I’ve never played so many tunes in my life and my playing improved in a big way. Not trying to get a dig - but its about priorities - and if going to Ireland was a top one, you'd find a way.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by bb
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
"I see your are in Dublin so tell us were you ever in Ireland?"
have you guys noticed that no matter where you go, there is always this kind of attitude. If you are not from the bush in Australia - then you are not a 'real' Australian. But if you are from Tassie - then even if you are in the bush on the Mainland...you are still a mainlander. Makes me laugh.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by bb
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Visited Dublin for a few days, before I got serious about The Music.
But I I have learned a lot about The Music from knowlegeable players here at home--both Irish-born and others.
If this is about how "you have to be Irish to play The Music," I disagree. Music stands on its own. When you hear an audio recording of a tune, there's no sure way to tell the age, gender, or nationality of the player--only whether it's well played or not.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by John Galt
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've been to Ireland several times over the past 30 years. The first itme I went, I was on a mission to find Yeats. I spent several weeks in Sligo and visited many places Yeats had been. There was a wonderful small library at the time in Sligo with many of Yeats' books and furniture. What an incredible thing it was to sit in a chair that Yeats had sat in, reading his books.
But it was in Sligo that I heard Irish music for the first time. I happened into a pub where Stockton's Wing was playing. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. What a great introduction to Irish music. I was hooked and took up the fiddle again when I came home. I went back to Sligo a few years later with a few tunes under my belt and had the great fortune to meet Joe O'Dowd. I stayed for 3 months and played tunes with him several times a week. What a great and generous man he was.
When I get there now, I visit old friends, play a few tunes, and try to see more of the country. I'll be there again in a few weeks, visiting friends in Cork and hiking around the Burren. I hope to get to Northern Ireland sometime. I would like to meet Mr. Bliss sometime. And Ptarmigan, too. And everyone else up there.
I'm interested to know why you asked, fisbee, so please let us know soon.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by John Culhane
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Spent a good chunk of time there a year or so ago. Most enjoyable and productive time was 6 months spent in Ballycastle (up Antrim!!).
I maintain that a period of imersion is the best thing you can possibly do for your playing.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've never been in Ireland! It's very far from here and the trip is very expensive... but I'm going on june!
In my case it's going to be a very interesting in a musical perspective because it's all there! Here, we don't have sessions, concerts or gigs and we're very few... so, yes, I think it's going to be a really amazing!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Matt_Celta
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
soooooo, fribee.... What's the 'good reason' for the question then?! The suspense is drive'n me knuts!
(Lived in Ennis/Galway for a year, spent far to much time with bb so my music was actually savagely harmed by the experience... I decided to go back again last year to cure myself of this, got on the plane, looked left and wouldn't ya bloody know it, there bb was. ah well, i'll get good next year.)
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by SirNose
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've lived in Clarkstone Glasgow, Harborne Birmingham, Solihull Birmingham, Redditch, Llandudno, Market Harborough, Leicester, Hamburg, Oxford, Clonakilty, Ahiohill, Cousane Gap, Aughadown, Ballydehob, Tragumna, Dunmanway, Rozelle Sydney, St Ives (the NSW one) and Leichhardt Sydney and probably more, and I've *been* to ... what? Stop?
Why?
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Linsey Doyle
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
oh -haha Sirnose -you are hilarious.... snork, snork :p
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by bb
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've been a few times in he last 10 yrs, mainly to hunt out old family haunts, though the music was never too far away. Not been since the arrival of my daughters. Would love to visit again. Brother-in-law teaches at one of the Unis and would like to go and take the girls to visit their cousins in UK and Ireland, but there's lots of other things to pay for!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
From the Colbert Report:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/science/05cnd-brits.html?ex=1330750800&en=b9b6996d54ba5cc6&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
Afterwards, Mr. Colbert asked " What do they want us to believe next; that the Muslums are decendants from Abraham??
Hmmmmm
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Been playing fiddle fiddle 14 months been to Ireland twice. Has my fiddle playing improved???????? You bet !
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Jon_bailey
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
In Tokyo, there are few musicians who visits Ireland on regular basis. Most of the players have been there only once or twice, and some of them never. And not a few of them have greater understanding and appreciation of the music than native Irish people.
I've been to Ireland many times but don't know how much that has affected my playing. I'm actually influenced by the Irish musicians with Yorkshire accents.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by slainte
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Ireland is a major rip-off from the car hire at the airport to the some little ole lady giving you the top of the morning and charging you 45€ for a bed and breakfast that is worth 25 at the most.
Everything is overpriced including the beer, most of the pubs have some little touristy band playing and you have to know where you're going to find a good session.
Apart from that it's ok been regularly
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Shylock
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I try to get to Willy Clancy Week every 2 or 3 years (my constitution couldn't stand going more often - at the end of our last stay my friend said, "If I opened a vein right now nothing would come out but Guinnes and diddly-dee.")
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Rhod
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've been to Ireland many times (due to Ryanair
) and every time I went there my fiddle playing improved considerably. I try to go to workshops and sessions as often as possible. I think it is important to hear and feel the "real stuff".
We have a lot of bands in Germany who play Irish music, but a lot of them do sound German, not Irish. I think the reason for this is that some of the musicians have never been to Ireland and even don't listen to Irish music that much.
Apart from this I just love the country and really enjoy to be there, even if some places really are major rip-offs.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by fiddlinsue
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Lived in Ireland for a year in the early 70"s, called Ireland "home" for holidays till the early 80's. Sadly haven't been back since. Are you offering airline tickets, Frisbee? If so, consider me, would love to hang me hat in auld Ireland again.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I believe Frisbee has relocated to Spiddal so I guess that might count as "Ireland".
I'm wondering what the reason for the question is too!
Having met and played with quite a few American musicians in the US I would say that there is no need to come to Ireland if you want to become an excellent player of Irish music. In fact in some ways the music is "better" over there (depending on your point of view) as people seem to be more interested in preserving older styles of playing. Not to say that the music has crystallised or remained stagnant, I hasten to add!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Interesting to use the word “foreign”.
Do you mean a person who originates from another geographical location, a person who genetically different from you, someone who was brought up in a different culture to you or a person from a different “nation” (in the modern political sense)?
Is Belfast foreign if one is in Cork? It’s all Ireland although politically the north is “foreign”.
Is a Muslim Irishman born in Dublin a foreigner? (Especially if he’s a good piper!)
What about the typical so-called American-Irish person who had one great-great-grandfather who emigrated from Kilkenny 150 years ago and has 15 other ancestors at the great-great-grandparent level from fifteen other places and cultures but just happened to retain the Irish name by a sheer fluke of decendency and the western/ Christian tendency to keep the paternal name?
What about Spike Milligan?
I live in South London, possibly the most culturally and ethnically diverse place on the planet, and you never hear anyone use the word “foreign”. In a multicultural society such as South London , the world of ITM and the internet no-one and everyone is foreign.
Oh! and I have been to Ireland (Eire & Norn Irn).
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Sureal moment ... I played a slow tune the other night (scotland) and this Irish fella who was in bangin' a drum said to me, thanks very much, it remeinded him of home. It was a French tune.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Maybe the irish guy was James Joyce.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Or Samual Beckett?
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I visited Ireland once for a week in 2000 with my wife. We enjoyed the trip immensely. We listened to a number of excellent sessions. We travelled from Dublin to Clare to Connemara to Donegal, then to Belfast along the north coast, and then back to Dublin for our return flight home to NY.
We will return when time and money allows.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by halfwaythere
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
How is it possible to travel from Dublin to Clare to Connemara to Donegal to Belfast to Dublin in a week? We had enough trouble trying to get to Connemara for a day while spending two weeks in Clare. Our hope had been to make it an overnight trip, but we wound up only being able to pull ourselves away from Clare for a day.
To answer the question (or, rather, to say "don't count me in the number you asked for"), I've been to Ireland seven times - the first time for five days in May (kind of like halfwaythere's trip), but other than that for at least two weeks at a time, all in December and January.
It is expensive, Shylock, but that's because the economy is booming. Minimum wage is roughly double what it is in the U.S. B&Bs are pricey in the cities, but more reasonable in smaller towns. The real lodging bargain is to go in the off-season, when it's possible to rent a cottage for under 300 euro per week. If you share that with three friends, it comes to under 11 euro per day per person. Then you can shop and cook for yourselves, saving a fortune on restaurant food.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Been there 5 times, including once for 6 weeks or so. I'd like to go again, but the three little kids won't let me.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Kheelch
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've been to Ireland once, had a fantastic time, and can't wait to go back
Avi
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by improziv
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
So are we going to get to know why the question was asked? I'm so excited...
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Rhod
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I have some very happy memories of holidays in Ireland 1977, 78 and 80. (Ballyshannon Festival!) Seeing the music in its original habitat has changed my attitude towards it, and probably my playing too.
I haven't been for over 20 years now and I think I might be horrified by the changes. The country I really miss though is England (including morris men, tee hee).
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by kuec
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Averaged 3 times a year for the last ten years, usually for a week or two at a time
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by fiddlersfancy
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I was in Latvia when I got seriously into Irish music, having thitherto dipped into a variety of flavours, albeit with a particular fondness for Irish and Scots. At that point I had never been to Ireland - my main reason being that I had chosen to go east instead of west and ended up in Latvia. My first visit to Ireland was in 1999, towards the end of my two-year stay in Latvia. I'm still getting over that first visit. I've been back almost every summer (all except 2005, when I was going south intead of west) since.
I would say, however, that I have a savagely warped view of Ireland. I have only ever been there from July to September, and much of my time there has been spent fleadh-hopping.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
"do you think it is important for you to do so (visit Ireland - ed.) in the future from a musical perspective?"
It depends what your musical objectives are. I suspect one of the ultimate goals of any musician is to communicate something of him/herself through music, as through speech. The process by which each of us learns to do it is a very personal thing. For some of us - probably most who post here, given the nature of our common interest - this involves trying to understand a particular musical tradition, and the social and cultural traditions surrounding it. I think the only way achieve such an understanding is by being immersed in the tradition(s). If my goal were to play like the musicians of current generations in Ireland, I believe the only way I could come close to achieving it would be by going to live permanently in Ireland, and playing regularly with the kind of musicians I sought to emulate. If I were more interested in older styles of traditional music, it might be as well to mix with Irish immigrant musicians in, say, London or Chicago. Living, as I do now, in the Irish music desert that is Mid-Wales, I am forced to delve deeper into my own inner musical reserves.
Personally, whilst I mourn the loss of the insomniac trad scene I was so used to when living in London, I think I am in quite a beneficial position. I still make regular visits to London, I am within easy reach of Ireland and I also have the added ingredient of *quiet*, in which my musicality (if I may be so bold as to make a claim to such a thing) can sleep or run riot, as the mood takes it. The idea of moving to Ireland has seemed attractive to me on many occasions. But the question is, do I love Ireland and all things Irish enough to want to accept it, warts and all? I can get warts in London or Wales, if I want them. I think perhaps, all things considered, my rose-tinted version of Ireland does more for my music.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Sorry - I should stick to one-liners.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I'll be making my first trip to Ireland this fall. I have a cottage rented for 2 weeks in Puckane, County Tipperary. I can't wait. For three days, I'll be at the Fiddler's Retreat in Thurles.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by nofrets
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Never been there. Would love to but hasn't happened yet.
Mary
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Antikhntr
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've been to Ireland once (for about 8 days) and have booked tickets to go back in May (this time for 9 days). I'd go for longer time periods but I don't have the money, nor the time off from work.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Crysania
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Blimey, it gets stranger and stranger. On one side we have people saying that Irish culture in general enhances, if not their music, but at least their enjoyment of it. And now we have someone saying their fictional view of Ireland enhances their music. I'll be ruminating on this one for a while I think.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've been to Ireland once 2 years ago... spent time in Mayo, Galway and Clare. Loved every minute... except the time on Clare Island when a guy loved everyone at 11 am... and hated all Americans at 1:00 pm... big drinker, he was... anyway I learned a lot about the people and their attitude toward music. I also learned why people right about the places there... we have the same kinds of places in the US, but no one ever writes about "The green and red of Beaver" (I lived in Beaver, PA... I'm not making that up)... I'd like to write a song about it, but the Google searches would come up with very diverse results.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by pastrings
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I have never been to Ireland. I consider it to be one of the great failures of my life.
I can't imagine why a player of the Music would *not* feel compelled to head over. Seems to me that, at least to satiate one's thirst for the stuff, you must experience this at the source. I suppose it's like learning a language: Fairly hard to become fluent in, say, Swahili without heading to Africa for a bit. We're lucky here in the states to have so many Irish ex-pats to maintain a kind of first-hand tradition, and of course an endless supply if Irish Americans who were raised on the stuff to one degree or another. But, at least from my own perspective, I won't feel as if I'm "in the club" until I've really been in its birthplace, surrounded with an almost palpable sense of tradition and respect for the music.
Someday, maybe when my kids are a little older...
DK
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by darinkelly
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I stopped the car once, got out and went to a cashpoint on Kilburn High Road once. Does that count?
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
oops i said once twice.....
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
First of all, you don't need to love music to want to go to Ireland---it's a fantastic country! Honestly, it's one of the few countries I've been to in Europe where they really like Americans, probably because so many of them have relatives over here. I went once and I loved everything about it---the people the most by far, but the culture, the landscape, the architecture, the Guinness---what's not to like?! I can't wait to go back.
But musically, that's a whole different world, there would be so much to learn.
So Frisbee, what gives---why the question? What did you want to know?
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by kennedy
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've been twice, first time was for 6 weeks and didn't really play many tunes in those days (I was 15) next time was 2 years ago for 7 months- based mainly in Galway. Funny I reckon I might of even seen bb and SirNose........
Anyway, last visit I played more than is even imaginable and it was awesome. Learnt so many great tunes and met loads of great people.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by sneetch
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Good on ya nofrets. Puckane is gorgeous. Up tipp
I dont think frisbee is gonna answer.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by session savage
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Just got back from my second trip to Ireland. Was there for 2 weeks, and got a lot of playing in (and 2200km on the rental car).
I actually feel like it messed up my playing a bit - but only temporarily. I played with several extremely excellent banjo players, and decided there were a few things that I needed work on (more compact,efficient right hand motion, and a somewhat lighter touch). Any time you try to change some fundamentals of your playing, it can be a painful process... But I will be better for it in the long run.
The experience was musically inspiring, and I've made a goal of getting there at least once a year from now on.
Now make with the promised explanation, frisbee!
Pete
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Reverend
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
"..non-Irish born trad musicians.."
I'm curious, does he mean musicians playing *Irish* traditional music, or persons from countries other than Ireland, playing the traditional music of their home countries? Given that this is a forum for discussing (largely) Irish music, we'd assume he means ITM but wouldn't any traditional musician be considered a tradtional musician, regardless of locale?
Never been, btw, last six years have been too busy with exams and hospitals. I love travel but have a few other places on the top of "the list"...
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by gravelwalks
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Fris is just trying to get a rise out of us before we retreat into the pubs for a weekend of drinking...
Sure, I've been to Ireland by sea and by air and through the countryside by bicycle. I've drank pints in Lisdoonvarna, slept on Inishmore, and stayed up way too late playing tunes all over County Clare. Does that make me an honorary Irishman? Hardly. But then, as an American, I didn't grow up in a coal mining town, or in some dark hollow, on 57th Street in NYC, or somewhere on the range. Yet, I've played all those styles and more.
I think one of things I learned in Ireland is that, like most cultures, they like you if you put in some effort to learn about and respect for their culture, and that I already had a pretty good handle on the musical style. That doesn't mean I've got it down, but I feel pretty good about my progress, and confident enough to not let someone anyone else make me feel badly about playing Irish and other Celtic styles, as long as I'm listening and trying to play it with respect and feeling.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Audeamus
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Nicely put high strung.
Have a good one all, i'm p issing off early for the weekend thats in it.
To the bar.....
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by session savage
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I was there for 3 weeks in the fall of 1996. Loved it and would love to return. Perhaps I'll be able to one day, if the dollar's exchange rate against the Euro gets better.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by lcox
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Never been - not sure why.
Of course it would improve some aspects of my playing if I used my time there well. And it would probably increase my understanding of Irish music in ways I can't predict.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by kris
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Been there a few times. I just love it. I needed more and more money every time, unfortunately. Didn't go to enough sessions. Ennis and Doolin were great. I want to keep going until I croak.
The country is changing fast, though. Last time I was at Shannon airport I heard American tourists lamenting the disappearance of the traditional rural Ireland they used to know (keep them poor and picturesque!?).
And now global warming is upon us ! Can you imagine the hills of Kerry covered with vineyards ? In a few decades.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by pennhorse
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Ohh for a lovely glass of Slíabh Lúachra chardonnay! Or a Punchestown Pinot Noir.
Well since Frisball isn't around and I know him to be a straightforward kind of a chap.
I reckon he's talking about people who play traditional Irish music and who don't come from Ireland, when he talks about "foreign people who play traditional music".
He paints in broad strokes (i.e. he's a bit simple!)
Right I'm off to the Porterhouse to drink Porter (surprise surprise) before the nit pickers start to ask the inevitable questions: what is Irish music? is it Irish? Is it music, even? Why is St Patrick Welsh? Where does Graham Norton buy his clothes? Does he buy them or are they donated? Who told Louis Walsh he knows stuff about music? Is the Holy Trinity incarnate in the form of Jeremy, Michael Gill and Bodhrán Bliss? What happens to the stuff that used to be in the holes in Polo mints? If Northern Ireland is the Teddy Bear's Head, does that make Dublin the teddy Bear's rectum?
Etc.
Happy St Patrick's Day everyone; Lá fheile Phádraig shona daoibh uilig.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
No, surely the rectum would be around Cork, wouldn't it Conán? .... & Dublin would be the belly button!
Have a great day yourself.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
In fact, St Patrick's Day greetings to one & all.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/benzamg/421730210/
Oh & in case you are in any doubt, this is NOT a pint of Guinness:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilt/78421459/
.... & neither is this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65826222@N00/423091853/
... but this is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/istirland/420242292/
But be careful not to drink too many, or you might start seeing little musical Leprechauns in front of your very eyes:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k210/Ptarmi/frog.jpg
For Frogs sake!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Most Irish people are French, Mr Llig, all those Fitzwhatevers, all Normans who invaded here in 1192 and got the English the blame.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
O ye of the sweeping statement, bliss. Read about Adrian Targett and mitochondrial DNA:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1127/comments#comment17525
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Is it on the cards that would-be immigrants to Ireland might have to sit an Irishness Test?
The British government has toyed with this ridiculous idea (i.e., of setting a Britishness Test). The theme is worthy of the talents of Spike Milligan and others such.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by nicholas
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Ok now that there’s been plenty of answers to my question here’s the reasons for me asking it.
Someone (probably joking) asked me if I’d been to Ireland seeing as I’m from Dublin, in a way he kind of nailed my point on the head because it is only through going to the real heartlands of traditional music in the West of Ireland that I feel I’ve gone some way to gaining a proper understanding and appreciation of traditional Irish music. In effect even though I’m Irish I am a foreigner to traditional Irish music as I wasn’t brought up in an area where the music is strong.
It is only by going to the West of Ireland that I’ve had some really special musical experiences that I simply haven’t experienced elsewhere. I’ve enjoyed many good sessions in Dublin, London, Paris and New York and I’ve played with some really great musicians however the music I’ve experienced in the West of Ireland is simply on another level, it’s kind of a spiritual thing that’s hard to describe. A few times I’ve experienced a kind of magical session where something seems to take over the musicians, for some reason this has only happened to me in the West of Ireland, but it has happened with such vastly differing styles as those in East Clare and South Donegal, so it’s not necessarily about a musical style. There’s also a way of playing that breaks out of the formulaic play every tune three times or less. In some of the best sessions I’ve been in tunes have been repeated over and over and the level of variation, expression and build up created brings the music to another level, you don’t hear this style in many recordings or concerts.
Does anyone understand this? Has anyone who does understand this experienced something similar outside of Ireland?
Part of something Conan mentioned also influenced my question. He mentioned that in the US he noticed a liking for a particularly old style of playing, to me this is great if it is genuinely authentic, but I’ve noticed that one of the offshoots of this search for old authenticity is an extreme conservatism about Irish music. Am I wrong about this? There seems to be a certain trend towards this conservatism and perhaps the negative side of this conservatism is that it neglects the fact that innovation is what has kept this music growing from Michael Coleman to Ed Reavy to John Doherty to Tommy Potts to Matt Molloy to Martin Hayes etc. All these musicians have extended the music in some way, do people really realise how important innovation is to the tradition? Are people afraid to experiment with the music because they are afflicted by this search for authenticity? When I talk about experimenting with the music I don’t mean experimenting in a kind of fusion with other music styles, that’s another thing altogether. I mean experimenting with the music to take it beyond the conventions and rules that have developed partly through competition culture. Such rules didn’t really exist before competitions became prominent.
I wonder in seeking this old authenticity and striving to play in a style suitable for competitions are people missing the point a bit? There are musicians who play in quite an old style but do something new with it. Breda Keville’s recent CD is full of old authenticity but there’s something really fresh about it too, perhaps it’s the amount of more recently composed tunes on it from people like Paddy Fahey and Ed Reavy.
In my experience there is a huge amount of conservatism about Irish music and from reading some of the comments on this site this conservatism seems to be rife outside of Ireland. So is this the result of distance from the source of the music? Is it the result of competition culture?
I know this conservatism exists in Ireland to, but it really is only isolated to certain individuals who in my opinion don’t know what they are talking about. I’m not referring to someone like Tony McMahon because he is actually quite innovative in his approach. He’s often labelled a purist but I think his purist attitude is more to do with his attitude to commercial trad.
So, I suppose the main point I’m trying to make is I feel that until you spend a good amount of time in the West of Ireland amongst great musicians there is going to be something sorely missing in your appreciation of traditional Irish music. This is not to say you won’t reach a high level of playing without coming here and I’m certainly not saying you can’t play Irish music properly if you’re not Irish, but there is a higher level to be attained which I suppose people will only understand when they discover it through coming to the West of Ireland and experiencing what I’ve experienced. It’s one of the main reasons I moved here.
Anyway sorry if this offends any of you nice people out there, it’s not meant to be offensive, it’s really meant to inspire people to come searching for what I and I’m sure many others have found in the West of Ireland.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
For more information, please visit:
http://www.irelandwest.ie/
With thanks to our area representative - Dave Flynn!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Very funny AND very cynical Ptarmigan
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Also by the West of Ireland I mean the whole west, north, central and south from Donegal to Cork, not just the central west as promoted on www.irelandwest.ie!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Sorry frisbee, I couldn't help it, not after coming straight from the Music & Politics thread to your post!
Or maybe I'm just sore you didn't include the Glens of Antrim!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
To bounce off of what frisbee is saying, I think it may be fair to say that there is something special about playing in a place that is steeped in the milieu as opposed to anywhere else without that meaning that there is something "not good" about the playing that goes on anywhere else.
Diiferent but similar: i grew up dancing merengue and salsa with my family. When I go to PR and we get together with friends and the extended family music starts playing and we start dancing. None of us is the worlds best but we have a good time and the evening flies by. It is as natural for us as walking.
In the states, I'll sometimes go with friends to a latin club and I'll be dancing with people that have "learned" Merengue and Salsa. Some of them look a lot better than me doing it and have much more technical skill—but the evening just feels a little different. There is the slightest accent. It isn't bad and I still have a great time, but it is different.
Maybe I'm thinking about this too much.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by matan_fiddler
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
matan fiddler makes a good point relating it to merengue and salsa which I'll add to in some way. I love certain African music styles but I've never been to Africa, it is one of my greatest ambitions to do so as I really don't feel I could understand the music properly without being in the places it originated. I've learnt from the records and can sound authentic ( a South African guy once told me when I play african style guitar I sounded just like a township guitarist!) But really there's so much more I could learn. I think the same thing applies to Irish music.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
As for the Glens of Antrim, I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant about Antrim music as I've never been there and was not aware of any particular Antrim style, but to be fair it's not exactly known as one of the heartlands of traditional Irish music is it?!
I'm sure there's great music there mind you and look forward to learning about it someday.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Naw, truth is, it's not really in the same league as Clare or Galway frisbee - that's just me pullin' your leg again! However, if your ever up this way, please give me a shout, by all means - I'd be happy to show you round.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Well, what's the saying... 'Go West, Young Man'!! .... 'The West's Awake' etc etc.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Excellent questions, frisbee. I don’t know the answers to any of them, but what does come to mind is what happened to Scottish music in Canada. Much Scottish music would have been lost forever if not for the people in Cape Breton---many of the tunes they play are the same as they were played in the Highlands before the Clearances. It’s always been a geographically isolated place, so it was easy for the music to stay true to itself. (they did have the French Acadian influence, but that’s another subject…)
It’s much harder to keep a tradition from other cultural influences in places like New York or Chicago---maybe that’s why the musicians outside of Ireland develop such a conservative/traditional approach.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by kennedy
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Good post, frisbee. It confirms what I suspected but was starting to doubt. That there really still is something to be gained from a stay in the West of Ireland.
And yes, I feel that there is a lot of conservatism in the US Irish music scene. It's very much (I think) a feeling of having to "prove" yourself. Prove that you can learn to play the "pure drop" and if you can't then you're a fake or something. I thought it was just in California but maybe not. It becomes less about the music and the community feeling and more about how "authentic" you are. I get the feeling that it's more laid back and friendly in the west of Ireland.
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by soft black stars
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I don't think this conservative approach is traditional, that's the problem. I think the music has always evolved and some people don't get this and so end up in a kind of time warp where they think the way they are playing is more valid and 'traditional' because it is exactly like the old recordings of Coleman or Morrison!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Maybe a lot of players outside Ireland have conservative attitudes to the music because they've started playing it later in life than a lot of Irish have, so they're preoccupied for a long time with mastering the basics, getting up a repertoire and "playing it properly" / "getting it right". Lots of players in W. Ireland will have got all that sorted in their teens, I should imagine, and moved on into musical freedom.
Meanwhile, the plane featured on that Irelandwest connection looks about to lose a painful argument with a cliff. Makes me think twice about flying from N. England to Knock...
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by nicholas
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
The west of Ireland is definitely very friendly and laid back in general, mind you if as an outsider you go into a local session and try to impose your style on it then you'll run into problems! If you do come to Ireland make sure you do your research before hand, learn about good spots to play, learn about local styles as much as you can before coming, then when you experience the music in its locale you'll have an unforgetable experience, by the way it took me about five or six years of repeatedly going to the west before this stuff clicked with me, so it takes time!
# Posted on March 16th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
nicholas, I think that's probably right. Starting later, being preoccupied/obsessed with getting it right, ect. It's made me downright mental at times, and I'm really just getting to the "musical freedom" part. Relaxing and having fun with it and with playing with others. Not worrying so much about my "authenticity" or anyone elses, either. At least that's the attitude I'm aiming for!
frisbee, thanks for the advice. I'd probably just listen, mostly, until I got a feel for things. I won't have five or six years to experience it though,unless I win the lotto
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by soft black stars
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
To quote my friend Llig, what a load of twaddle
Trust a Dub.
Manchester, Leeds, London, New York, Boston, Seattle, BELFAST, Co Antrim, (in Portglenone everyone seems to play), the hotbed that is the North Down coast, played mostly by those not normally associated with the music, South Derry, Tyrone, Armagh, and do not forget DUBLIN.
I found more music in Manchester than you would find in the whole of Ireland. Mind you, I started the thread "Is ITM wasted on the Irish".
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
But...I WANT TO BELIEVE!!
Geez, I'm really confused, now. Guess I'll aim for Chicago or Boston, after all!
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by soft black stars
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
We spent a week or so in Ireland, North and South, while touring in Europe with motorcycles, me and my girlfriend. I can't remember the town, maybe Limerick or Kilkenny or thereparts, but we had a nice experience in a small pub where we were quality and quantity testing the Irish beer so to speak. While it was not yet the closing time, the bar keeper closed the doors letting no more customers to come in and a group of trad player started their session. A very pleasant experience and sadly the only time we heard trad players play during our stay in Ireland.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by Risto
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Ok
Just quickly ran through this thread and I have to say I've been to Ireland almost every year for the past several. I've sat in many seisuns. I've found the "magical seisuns" in so many places and those not necessarily in Ireland. The most important thing I've learned in this thread is that
Conan and I both go to the Porterhouse!!!!!!!!!
Of course we're on different continents but does that really matter?
Hi Conan!
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by fiddlefamily
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I'm from Newfoundland and never been to Ireland but would like to go. I would guess Newfoundland is as close Ireland as you can get without being there. We have a huge Irish music following and we even have our own century old Newfoundland music derived from some of yours.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by salmoncove
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Newfoundland is very close to Ireland, in terms of the amount of people playing trad and the accents....I swear some of them up on the Irish loop - you'd never know that they had grown up in Newfoundland.....very, very close to Irish.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by bb
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Well bodhrán bliss you obviously don't get what I'm on about if you think you can find the kind of music I'm thinking of in Dublin. I'm from Dublin and as much as I know the city and the main hotspots for trad I find it really hard to find a good session, some of the great sessions I'm talking about in the West featured musicians who play in Dublin all the time, when they play in Dublin they seem to be going through the motions, yet when they're in the West they seem to transform, not gonna mention any names.
Also its defintely not in London, there's some very good sessions in London but not the kind I'm on about. You've probably missed my point really, I'm not saying there's no good music outside the West of Ireland, I'm saying there is another level to be found there which is quite elusive, it doesn't even have to involve local musicians. One of the best sessions I've ever had was in Miltown Malbay with two Dubliners and an American (who lives in Ireland), can't explain exactly but there was just something magical going on that night and no I wasn't on magic mushrooms!
But anyway I suppose since you're a bodhrán player bliss there's some other kick you get out of sessions. I quite like the bodhrán when its played well, but for some reason the bodhrán is rarely present at the great sessions I'm talking about! Main exception being Séamus Ó Kane who adds a beautiful bounce to any session he's in.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Conservatism in a tradition is one of the things that keeps it alive and recognisable. However, too much can also kill it.
I am the sort of player who has always been drawn to "old" styles of music, to less commercial styles of presentation, to solo playing, etc. That said, when I was younger I also really enjoyed hearing a lot of innovation applied to this music. I enjoy it less as I get older, but always enjoy it most when the innovators show a real love of the older styles they are playing around with. If they seem embarassed by it or appear to have little interest in it - that's a turn off.
I am an American (long resident in Scotland) but I have never been around the competition scene, and am not worried about pretending to be something I'm not. I just have a deep love of old fashioned, rough edged trad music.
I would love to experience the kind of sessions frisbee describes finding in the west of Ireland. Even if only as a listener. That kind of "experimentation" is the thing that has kept me interested in Irish music for all these decades.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by kris
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Frisbee:
Any chance you can recommend some towns which have:
- great sessions
- low low rent
????????????????
........ just in case I come into some money and have nothing else to do.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by morning star
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Hey kris you misunderstand me a bit, more and more I prefer less commercial styles myself and my favourite recordings and concerts of late have been solo's or duo's not bands. The innovation I'm talking about isn't what people often describe as innovative these days (i.e. Lunasa/Flook etc.) I'm talking about innovation within the purer style and the great sessions I'm talking about aren't necessarily innovative, in fact I think they hark back to an old way of playing that is dying out, yet within this tradition there is always room for experimentation, it's just not an extreme, immediately obvious innovation. It's a subtle change, as you'd expect from such a subtle tradition!
For example Ed Reavys music which was mostly composed in the 1950's and 60's was I think highly innovative within the boundaries of the tradition, yet nowadays his music is played so much that people don't realise how recently it was written, some people know a lot of Reavy's tunes without knowing he wrote them and thus presume them to be ancient. Yet if you compare some of his more adventurous tunes to tunes found in the old collections you'll see how innovative he was.
This is what I'm talking about regarding innovation within the tradition. The great session thing I'm talking about is not really connected to innovation although it can be! I guess the main point I'm trying to make is that some of the conventions which have become standard in sessions are not really that 'traditional' if you consider traditional to mean an old way of playing, certainly the way of playing a set of three reels with each repeated three times is not such an old 'traditional' practice. It is probably the result of the recording age when music tracks were by necessity of a certain length. The great sessions I'm referring to can have a whole rake of tunes one after another, each of which is played many times with the sets going on for quite a long time. I've experienced this in Clare and Donegal in particular and it can be just astounding when it works. Try it yourself sometime on your own and then imagine what it'd be like with a bunch of great musicians sitting in a nice comfy old pub in the Irish countryside.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Morning star, I'm afraid the thing about these sessions is that they are elusive, you can't plan them, they just 'happen', you have to be in the right place at the right time. To play in them you also have to be in a certain mindset and know the tunes etc., but you don't have to play in them to experience them. All I can tell you is specific times and places I've found them.
Feakle in East Clare both during and after the Feakle Festival, Ennis during the Ennis trad fest, Milltown Malbay, Crosses of Anagh and Mullach during the Willy Clancy Week, Bunbeg during and after the Frankie Kennedy Festival,Spiddal in Galway right now, and Glencolmcille during the fiddle week there.
There are a few players who have this nack of picking great tunes and playing in such a great way, these include Pat O'Connor who lives in Feakle, the Keville sisters from Clare, James Byrne from Glencolumcille, Charlie Lennon in Spiddal, Paul Ó Shaughnessy, Harry Bradley and Deremy Diamond often have brilliant sessions in Donegal, the list goes on.
There are a few people in particular I just love playing with, not just cos they're my friends but because they have great tunes and a great approach to the music these include Liz Coleman, Sheenagh Vallely and of course the great maestro himself Conan McDonnell
If you see any of these names mentioned for a session I highly recommend going along to listen first and then ask to join if you think you'd fit in well, be very careful here though. If you ask to join they're unlikely to refuse you but if you're not on the same wavelength you could ruin the session. Most of the people I've mentioned are very friendly but I think all of them can get annoyed by someone gatecrashing their session in a tasteless way, although Conan and myself have been known to tastelessly gatecrash sessions ourselves!
Anyway that's the best advice I can give for where to find these sessions, the chances are if you dedicate yourself to the music and explore the West of Ireland you'll eventually come across what I'm talking about, it'll just happen one day and it'll only be afterwards when it'll really sink in that you've experienced what I'm talking about.
As for trying to find somewhere with cheap rent I suggest going to India where you'll probably find some really transcendental musical experiences but they won't involve Irish music!
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Oh I forgot to add Drumshanbo in Leitrim to that list, had one really special session there last year
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Just spotted a mistake, the Keville sisters are from East Galway not Clare, but they spend a lot of time in Clare!
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
These elusive, fantastic moments happen fairly often in certain Québecois sessions in Montreal when experienced musicians let go and play a tune or set of tunes repeatedly until a huge momentum is built up. It's all about passion and letting the music take over. Sometimes the music is smooth as can be, at other times quite rough. Any *crookedness* is now conventionalised by tradition and everyone is pretty much on the same page in playing crooked tunes in a similar way. The result is exhilerating when it happens.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by JNW
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I've been fortunate enough to have traveled Ireland 7 times in 12 yrs..But I tell ya this last trip in Nov..(staying with friends here and there even) nearly broke me..I had to get a second job when I got home... I think my next musical vacation will most likely be to Nova Scotia...Im glad I got to see ole Ireland when it was affordible...
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by lamh trom
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Where's Ireland?
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Where's Ireland?
Easy peasy.
"Ireland, being situated between Britain and Spain and conveniently situated for the seas round Gaul..."
Tacitus, "Agricola", written I gather 98 AD. According to him the Romans reconnoitred the coast and harbours, although they did not invade.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by nicholas
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I missed the boat on that one. It's more than just about musical tourism(!). That level of interaction you are talking about Frisbee can also be found in places like Cajun country, south cental Louisiana, or for that matter jazz circles in New York, LA, or Chicago.
Whenever seasoned musicians are completely familiar with a musical landscape they can anticipate variations within given tunes, and not necessarily tunes they are all that familiar with. The boundaries at that level are intuitive. It's the beauty of music, Ha!
By the way, I am reading Last Night's Fun by Ciaran Carson, highly recommended. And very much to the point.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by pennhorse
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
I loved reading Last Night's Fun !
Thanks to frisbee for reminding me of how I want to spend my future windfall.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by morning star
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Ah, Frisbee, it is atmosphere you are talking about, not music. I am always disappointed in the West of Ireland, especially Co Galway, and Co mayo is my second home.
And Seamus O'Kane would be up there with the likes of me, different type of playing, sounds like a bass guitar with Seamus, but excellent.
Apart from the fact that I play other instruments, hoiw the hell does being a bodhran player give someone a different perspective on a session. If it is good, it's good, whether you play pipes or spoons.
# Posted on March 17th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
No bodhran bliss it is a combination of music and atmosphere and the music creates the atmosphere in such a big way. I really don't think you've a clue what I'm talking about. particularly if you are always disappointed in the West of Ireland. that's why i think you get a different type of kick out of trad to me which is fair enough and good luck to you if you get great enjoyment out of your sessions wherever they are.
I generally have a geat time no matter where I go too, but my main point which you still don't seem to be getting is that there is just another level I've experienced in the West and experiencing it has made me convinced there's something special about trad in the West.
So if your style is different to Seamus, would I be wrong in guessing that your style of bodhran playing is loud and busy? If so then I don't think you could understand the kind of music I'm talking about.
And, of course you have a different perspective on a session being a bodhrán player. Your instruments role in a session has a big bearing on the effect the session has on you. I experience sessions very differently when I'm backing as opposed to when I'm playing tunes, so since the bodhrán is a rhythm/backing instrument you are unlikely to know what it's like to play the tunes in a session, it is a very different thing, particularly because the backers never determine the music that is going to be played, its always the tune players.
Anyway, perhaps some day we'll meet in a magical session somewhere and we can get over this petty squabble! Happy Paddys day!
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Is it something to do with the weather in the West?
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by nicholas
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Frisbee - (if you're still there after 24 hours) I did understand you correctly, I think, just want off at a bit of a tangent. I don't really go to sessions much - I can't be bothered with a lot of the relatively recent session traditions (like the sets and repeats thing), the egos, the big groups and big mix of instruments. I realise that I miss out on some good stuff, too, by not going, but that's just how I am.
I long for playing situations like the ones you describe. I think it has a lot to do with space. Particularly in cities, people are all crowded in together, rushing about, competing for everything - a seat, a parking space, a chance to start a set....
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by kris
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Erm....well not the weather right now! The weather's so bad tonight it kept me from going to my local session!!
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
ha! kris u just caught me as I was about to log off, funny thing about the sessions I'm talking about is that one of them featured just four musicians, another featured about 40 playing almost every instrument imaginable and another featured around 20 fiddles and nothing else!
I understand where you're coming from about the relatively recent session traditions, it can be hard to challenge these traditions when you get stuck in the middle. Some people don't understand the concept of repeating a tune lots of times and give you really strange looks if you play a tune more than three times, I guess they've just been listening to bands too much!
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
kris, i notice you're not keen on the smoke in pub sessions in Scotland, well if you come over here that problem will be solved, smokng is banned in pubs!
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Right now I am going to go offline and I don't think I'll add any more to ths discussion, I think enoughs been said and I've certainly made my point. So thanks everyone for contributing, it was fun and illuminating
Dave
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Frisbee likes the West of Ireland appears to be the point of this thread.
No-one plays anything, and I mean no-one, at my sessions without my say so. They wouldn't have a clue if I wasn't leading them.
Seamus O'Kane is a bit muted for my taste, if you cannot be heard you are merely taking up a seat. When organised poroperly, he is great, like a BASS GUITAR, as I said earlier, RATHER THAN the "normal" bodhran rhythms. You assumed I meant quiet. I didn't.
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Hi,
A poll on this topic on the Francophone mailing list IrlandeTradFR (http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/IrlandeTradFR/) gave the following results for 96 answers :
1 lives in IRL
5 travel there a few times a year
10 each year
13 every second year
49 rarely
18 have never been there
Hope that helps, etc...
# Posted on March 18th 2007 by bayram
Re: A Question for Foreign trad musicians
Never been to Ireland, would like to go, but probably never will, my wife doesn't like to travel overseas. Fortunately, folks around here have brought the music of Ireland to many pubs within driving distance of my home, so I am content with my lot.
# Posted on March 19th 2007 by AlBrown