I've been trying, for the past year or so to get a handle of this modal concept thingy. The way I have it so far is thus:
All four "irish" modes (modes used in irish trad music) have a major second and a major fifth.
major/ionian: major third, major 6th, major 7th
mixolydian: major third, major 6th, minor 7th
dorian: minor third, major 6th, minor 7th
minor/aeolian: minor third, minor 6th, minor 7th
I'm wondering what the consequences for accompaniment and harmony will be. Given that many chords are root/3rd/fifth, is major/minor a good enough distinction? or does this mean that some chords (with 7ths in, or maybe the fifth/7th/2nd in a minorish tune) have to be specially adapted?
And what about those tunes where the third is not present. Say, the knotted cord. It's noted here as being Ador, but as it's missing the C, maybe it's actually Amix? Can we know? Should a backer avoid 3rd's? What about other pentatonic or hexatonic tunes?
Is their anywhere i can go to research this? Greg you seem to have a good handle on this already, however it's all new to me, I would love to learn this theory to help me improve so i need to start from the start, any idea's?
Wow, that's a loaded question. I know there were a few courses in college called "church modes medieval to modern." (those, by the way were carefully to be avoided!)... I always thought that most of the standard session tunes were referred to as X major or X minor... Occasionally you have the lowered 7th chord (subtonic in snobby-ese) a minor IV chord (snobby-ese: minor subdominant) (phrygian mode tunes, I think)... but after that, they're just some form of bending various notes to emulate durian and usings a variety of harmonic minor scales. If a 3rd is left out... like in your example, Amix is a definite possibility... just as Amaj is.
The guy known as 'coyotebanjo' on this site has written a book on accompanying Celtic music that has a clear description of the common modes. He also has a website with a lot of info posted. Look for links in his member profile.
I'm sure this has been covered at length in previous discussions.
If you stick strictly to notes present in each scale then that is cetainly going to affect the possible chords that can be used in accompaniment.
Let's say the key is D something and we stick to triads.
If it is D major then you have the three major chords D, G and A plus their relative minors Bm, Em and F#m. There is also C#dim made from the three notes C#, E and G. If you put an A note below these you get the chord A7. However I usually try to avoid sevenths when accompanying tunes (or songs) that have a "traditional" feel. Most (i.e., more than half of) tunes can be accompanied by using the three majors.
Suppose instead the key is D mixolydian. You no longer have the C# available so the chord A major is out. But you do have C major (C-E-G) and you can usually use this where you might have used A major if the key had been D major. Alternatively, of course, you can use A minor.
In the end, though, what chords you use to accompany a tune is a matter for personal preference. Chord progression is often more important than strictly adhering to the chord suggested by the notes being played. Just because the notes A-C-E are played doesn't mean you have to play Am. A good tune tells a story. So should the accompanying chord progression.
I've come across three tunes which are, in the settings I know, in G Lydian. They are the hornpipe Fisherman's Lilt, the jig Gillan's Apples and the slide Paudy Scully's (aka Turnip Jig). Though they are ostensibly in G major they can all be played on a diatonic D harmonica without bending for "accidentals." Though I am no scholar.
The advice on avoiding chord extensions were probably wise.
Since I am usually playing with a solo fiddler, I use chrod extensions a lot in tunes I know very well and have worked into the ground with standard 3 note chords. Not so much on roots, but Dominant 5th creates so much gravity to resolve, it's hard to resist extending my 5ths. When you start a Mixolydian tune with a Dominant chord, it creates this wonderful, quizzical opening to your backing which is usually resolved to the true root of the key somwhere in the melody.
Do you have a way of recording a backing progression, then playing the melody over it? This sort of live-fire testing will allow your ears to inform your reading.
The Jazz Book by Mark Levine explains the modes and their implications on chord extensions VERY well. It's thick, but definitely worth a read.
The Knotted Cord is A Dorian as far as I see - C nat. seems built into the scale sequence even if it isn't played, and it's very natural (!) to include a C natural in variations from the standard setting, e.g. when beginning the tune as follows:
dB||:AGAB AGEG|ABcd edBA|
- Although triplets and other quick passages can include a C#, these don't take away the Dorian character of the tune. (Though I dare say a cunning melody player and backer could subvert the tune and its accompaniment to make it mixolydian, if they really wanted to.)
modes and their implications
modes and their implications
I've been trying, for the past year or so to get a handle of this modal concept thingy. The way I have it so far is thus:
All four "irish" modes (modes used in irish trad music) have a major second and a major fifth.
major/ionian: major third, major 6th, major 7th
mixolydian: major third, major 6th, minor 7th
dorian: minor third, major 6th, minor 7th
minor/aeolian: minor third, minor 6th, minor 7th
I'm wondering what the consequences for accompaniment and harmony will be. Given that many chords are root/3rd/fifth, is major/minor a good enough distinction? or does this mean that some chords (with 7ths in, or maybe the fifth/7th/2nd in a minorish tune) have to be specially adapted?
And what about those tunes where the third is not present. Say, the knotted cord. It's noted here as being Ador, but as it's missing the C, maybe it's actually Amix? Can we know? Should a backer avoid 3rd's? What about other pentatonic or hexatonic tunes?
Greg
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by Tirno
Re: modes and their implications
woops, I mean perfect fifth, and perfect fourth as well
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by Tirno
Re: modes and their implications
Is their anywhere i can go to research this? Greg you seem to have a good handle on this already, however it's all new to me, I would love to learn this theory to help me improve so i need to start from the start, any idea's?
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by fap
Re: modes and their implications
Wow, that's a loaded question. I know there were a few courses in college called "church modes medieval to modern." (those, by the way were carefully to be avoided!)... I always thought that most of the standard session tunes were referred to as X major or X minor... Occasionally you have the lowered 7th chord (subtonic in snobby-ese) a minor IV chord (snobby-ese: minor subdominant) (phrygian mode tunes, I think)... but after that, they're just some form of bending various notes to emulate durian and usings a variety of harmonic minor scales. If a 3rd is left out... like in your example, Amix is a definite possibility... just as Amaj is.
There's a pretty good explanation of that stuff here:
http://www.libraryireland.com/IrishMusic/IV.php
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by pastrings
Re: modes and their implications
http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/modes.htm
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by Pere
Re: modes and their implications
The guy known as 'coyotebanjo' on this site has written a book on accompanying Celtic music that has a clear description of the common modes. He also has a website with a lot of info posted. Look for links in his member profile.
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: modes and their implications
I'm sure this has been covered at length in previous discussions.
If you stick strictly to notes present in each scale then that is cetainly going to affect the possible chords that can be used in accompaniment.
Let's say the key is D something and we stick to triads.
If it is D major then you have the three major chords D, G and A plus their relative minors Bm, Em and F#m. There is also C#dim made from the three notes C#, E and G. If you put an A note below these you get the chord A7. However I usually try to avoid sevenths when accompanying tunes (or songs) that have a "traditional" feel. Most (i.e., more than half of) tunes can be accompanied by using the three majors.
Suppose instead the key is D mixolydian. You no longer have the C# available so the chord A major is out. But you do have C major (C-E-G) and you can usually use this where you might have used A major if the key had been D major. Alternatively, of course, you can use A minor.
In the end, though, what chords you use to accompany a tune is a matter for personal preference. Chord progression is often more important than strictly adhering to the chord suggested by the notes being played. Just because the notes A-C-E are played doesn't mean you have to play Am. A good tune tells a story. So should the accompanying chord progression.
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by DonaldK
Re: modes and their implications
Thanks for the tip, AlBrown. coyetebanjo has some cool stuff.
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by DonaldK
Re: modes and their implications
Why should I try feebly to explain what I dimly understand, when I can refer everyone to a PhD?
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: modes and their implications
I cant find the instructional material on coyotebanjo.com?
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by fap
Re: modes and their implications
This is very helpful: http://www.geocities.com/novairishsession/modes/modes.htm
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by RichardB
Re: modes and their implications
I've come across three tunes which are, in the settings I know, in G Lydian. They are the hornpipe Fisherman's Lilt, the jig Gillan's Apples and the slide Paudy Scully's (aka Turnip Jig). Though they are ostensibly in G major they can all be played on a diatonic D harmonica without bending for "accidentals." Though I am no scholar.
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: modes and their implications
I made a mistake. I didn't mean Fisherman's Lilt. I meant the other one, Cronin's Hornpipe. Dagnab it!
# Posted on March 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: modes and their implications
The advice on avoiding chord extensions were probably wise.
Since I am usually playing with a solo fiddler, I use chrod extensions a lot in tunes I know very well and have worked into the ground with standard 3 note chords. Not so much on roots, but Dominant 5th creates so much gravity to resolve, it's hard to resist extending my 5ths. When you start a Mixolydian tune with a Dominant chord, it creates this wonderful, quizzical opening to your backing which is usually resolved to the true root of the key somwhere in the melody.
Do you have a way of recording a backing progression, then playing the melody over it? This sort of live-fire testing will allow your ears to inform your reading.
The Jazz Book by Mark Levine explains the modes and their implications on chord extensions VERY well. It's thick, but definitely worth a read.
# Posted on March 3rd 2007 by KC Gross
Re: modes and their implications
Try this, also:
http://www.ceolas.org/instruments/accompaniment
# Posted on March 3rd 2007 by swisspiper
Re: modes and their implications
"bending various notes to emulate durian"
I love those really 'fruity' tunes. Just don't expect to win any friends by playing them.
# Posted on March 3rd 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: modes and their implications
I think somebody round here has a vowel problem...
# Posted on March 3rd 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: modes and their implications
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9239/comments#comment196518
# Posted on March 3rd 2007 by BegF
Re: modes and their implications
Get an idea of (and listen to) all kinds of modes and chords at:
http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/
# Posted on March 4th 2007 by henk
Re: modes and their implications
The Knotted Cord is A Dorian as far as I see - C nat. seems built into the scale sequence even if it isn't played, and it's very natural (!) to include a C natural in variations from the standard setting, e.g. when beginning the tune as follows:
dB||:AGAB AGEG|ABcd edBA|
- Although triplets and other quick passages can include a C#, these don't take away the Dorian character of the tune. (Though I dare say a cunning melody player and backer could subvert the tune and its accompaniment to make it mixolydian, if they really wanted to.)
# Posted on March 4th 2007 by nicholas