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When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
A chairde,
I have been interested recently in comments about 'new' bands. I am a great admirer of Lúnasa, for example, and I am amazed that people who see themselves as lovers of Irish music can find anything to criticise with them. So far as I can see the problem they have is that Lunasa are not 'traditional enough'. I cannot for the life of me imagine what that means. It seems to be that people are unhappy that Lunasa play 'new' tunes, or arrangements of tunes from outside the tradition. The implication is they should be recording sets of the Salamanca into the Longford Tinker, which by definition would be great, they say. My question is: why on earth would you?What would be the point? Does the world really need another recording of the old chestnuts like Christmas Eve? No it doesn't. By all means play them, as I do and love them in a session setting. But the definitive recordings have been done. You will not beat the Bothy Band recordings of these sets. Why try? Surely it is better to extend the range and scope of the music by developing it.
The same thing is happening in classical music. Would anyone dream of recording another set of the Four Seasons or Beethoven's 5th. I am sure there are people weak minded enough to try, but it would be without value. There is nothing more to say about these pieces.
Sometimes this hidebound tradition is potentially harmful. To take one example, I was astonished to hear criticism of John McSherry's playing. So far as I could make out the basis of this appeared to be that he had not remade Paddy Keenan's first album. What on earth would compel anyone to do this? That was a musical statement in and of its time. John comes from a different background and set of circumstances. He plays according to his influences, quite rightly. As such, he is one of the most naturally gifted players of his generation.
So please, enjoy the recordings of the past, play that music and pay tribute to the great players and innovatiors of the past.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
i wonder if people looked at the bothy band at the time and said similar things.
in about 30 years, the people who are learning tunes from lsitening to lunasa will be playing it as if it was part of the tradition normally and some other person will be saying why arent bands then playing the morning nightcap and rathlin island-sporting paddy. this is just the rough period while stuff is being integrated into the tradition as near as i can tell.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I don't like them because I find the sound more "plastic" , and lacking "soul". It isn't about technique for me. I just don't "feel" it when I listen to Lunasa.
I know those are VERY subjective terms. It is the same reason that makes me dislike most Jazz, but LOVE Blues with all my heart. It is just a matter of taste and not necessarily to do with talent or dazzle factor.
I dislike "Flook" for the same reasons, and yet Michael McGoldrick is to be commended for adding a lot of new ideas and innovations to "Trad" playing.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I don't think innovation is bad. But most of "innovative" or "new" elements in this music will be regarded as outmoded and forgotten in 30 years, rather than integrated into the tradition. I love old-fashioned traditional music because it has stood the test of time and will never "age."
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Oh. sore nerve touched!
And what exactly did The Bothy Band do, llig leahcim? Please spell it out for those on this site who aren't familiar with the band's music and its utter importance in terms of almost everything that's happened in ITM since 1975. Go on, be positive for a change!
On the other hand, much as I enjoy John McSherry's piping, I have harboured for some time the suspicion that he really does want to be Paddy Keenan. This is not intended flippantly, but compare the hairstyles!
John shouldn't need to do so as his music is utterly individual, technically brilliant and thoroughly enjoyable.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Although I know the members are all excellent musicians and respect them, I'm not a big fan of Lunasa. That's not because they are not "traditional enough" but because their music lacks spontaneity and sounds "plastic" as yekdeli put it. They don't sound as new as the Bothy Band. Fook is fine to me though.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Lunasa is a modern version of the Bothy Band, more or less. It's the same basic idea, but they've added a bass and they're pushing the envelope just a little further. Both bands are well forged within traditional music and feature top-rate musicians. What they're contributing isn't taking away anything from the tradition and poses no threat whatsoever. If anything, because of the musician's abilities and credentials -- it's drawing people in.
For me, it was bands like the Bothy Band that got me interested and directed my attention towards ITM. After spending a couple of decades exploring it I have a clearer understanding of what it is that bands like the Bothy Band and Lunasa are contributing. But had it not been for bands like that I might never have discovered the larger picture. Just because you enjoy the contributions of bands like that doesn't render you incapable of appreciating the "pure drop" music as well.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
The Phantom Button posted almost exactly what I was going to write. In my case, it was the Canadian band Leahy that first drew me into ITM, even though Leahy is more Celtic-inspired than Celtic. And now that I play, I'm more interested in the nuts and bolts of ITM, and I've also gained a new appreciation, and understanding, of how Leahy and similar bands play with the form.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
The Bothy Band had Triona ni Domhnaill's scarifying singing - I mean, in the good sense, it was exciting. Mary Black with De Danann was in the same league. There are lots of perfectly good singers out there, but those two, IMO, do, or did, have that bit extra over and above most of them.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Even though I liked Mary just fine, my favorite singer with De Danann was Dolores Keene. I had the pleasure of seeing both Dolores and Mary on the same stage with De Danann once here in SF.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I was young and cool when the Bothy Band were young and cool. I liked them well enough, but I liked "pure drop" stuff at the same time - I like that it is raw, expressive and has an interesting history. But mainly I like it for the very subjective reason that I simply enjoy it.
However, Pol, i disagree that this or that player or group has produced a "definitive" recording of any traditional tune or set, leaving the rest of us with nothing further to add that could possibly be worth hearing. Just because the Bothy Band recording of the Kesh Jig was very popular, does not mean that they in some way "own" it. It is first and foremost a traditional jig like any other, not an album track. Just as a Beethoven symphony is a piece of music to perform again and again down through the ages - not a "concept album".
As for Lunasa and many other "trad bands" of this and previous decades, I take them on their merits. I don't have a problem with innovation. What I find too often is that the players are good technicians, but play with little depth or expression. It is often a mechanical performance by the melody players over a "clever" backing. I don't need to go to traditional music for this, there is plenty of it everywhere else at the moment. Perhaps this makes bands like Lunasa very much musicians of their time - but it just serves to remind me why I like the so called pure drop.
Sure, I respect the tradition - but mainly I just enjoy it.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
One of us is losing the plot Dick - Johnny Moynihan wasn't at that gig in Dundee, if that's what you're referring to. I still have the tape ! Johnny Moynihan was with Planxty in Dundee.
[ Dundee was the place to be in the 70s, obviously ].
As far as the original question is concerned, I respect the tradition and those who carried it forward, but I don't worship them. My life was probably changed by "the music" before the "Bothy Band" came along, but they certainly reinforced that decision, and if anyone can name me a Scottish wooden flute player before the "Bothy Band" 's 1st LP came out, I'll be very surprised. They turned a lot of people on to Irish music in the first place in the mid-70s, and indirectly changed the face of Scottish music as well.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Could have sworn they were both there in Dundee, Kenny! I must listen to that tape again - not that that job is such a hardship!
However, you can cancel that appointment with your shrink - I'm sure 'I lost the plot' a long time ago.
As for Planxty, I know I never did see them in Dundee. I did see them in Edinburgh though, with Logan - After the Break & still have the photos to prove it!
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Wrong again Kenny!
Sorry, but I'm just listening to that very tape again (JOY ) & Johnny Moynihan was indeed there & is singing 'Love Will You Marry Me' right now ..... & then a little later Tim Lyons sings about the 'King of Spain'! Brilliant concert & their best line up IMHO
Phew - means I can now cancel my own appt. with my shrink!
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
One of the many highlights of that concert, for me Kenny, was Tim playing a gorgeous slow air on Melodeon while Johnny & Charlie accompanied him on Bouzoukis & at the end of the air they launched straight into two cracking Slides with the rest of the band joined them.
Pól, I think the reason De Danann were by far & away my favourite band, was because they did NOT feel the need to use any gimmicks, they just played the music straight down the line!
I was just over at YouTube re-living old memories by watching two of my all-time favourite bands Free & Rory Gallagher, on video & those outfits seemed to have the same ethos as De Danann - i.e. play it simple & from the heart - ....... well, it gets me every time!
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Pól, sorry for the slight detour, although De Dannan may well be an ideal example of the more traditional sounding band, in contrast with the more innovative.
However, I must just clarify that although I prefer listening to the more 'old fashioned' sounding groups, with a different hat on, I also love the innovators & one of the best concerts I ever attended was Coolfin in Coleraine, with their Drums, Persussion, Bass + Donal's Bouzouki as a rhythm section!
Basically, there has to be room for both, or the whole thing is in danger of stagnating.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I'll be paraphrasing but I'm pretty sure it was Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh whao said that when she first heard the Bothy Band it was amazing that the tune playing was pretty much down the line traditional but the strumming just did her nut in.
I think it's important to remember that tune playing is the heart of it. Listen, for example, the two tunes Malloy and Peoples play in eflat on their own on the first record. It really is fantastic pure drop
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Yes, on the whole the melody instruments play it straight, maybe one instrument starting a set or one filling a gap on its own, and sooner or later the backers (guitar, keyboard, zouk) come in with a mighty bash and clobber their way through in a pretty straightforward manner. (Of course they could arrange, where it suited them - and the tune / song involved.) Result - the tunes and instruments spoke. Most exciting ITM band ever, IOM. I think Silly Wizard was the Scottish equivalent. From what I've listened to, early Altan ran them close.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I think I'm trying to say that these bands didn't over-manicure the tunes and the backing sounds to create an over-precious performance, subordinated to novel rhythmic and harmonic effects, e.g.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
"So far as I can see the problem they have is that Lunasa are not 'traditional enough'. I cannot for the life of me imagine what that means."
It means that the person you're talking to likes the pure drop trad stuff more. Lunasa are more trad than the likes of Flook or Grada but they still insist on jazzing it up with funky syncopation, and that's not trad, it's jazzy syncopation.
The things that annoy me about Lunasa - in other words, the aspects of their music that aren't trad enough for my tastes - are their too-cool-for-school arrangements with sickeningly sweet low whistle harmonies and stupid little funky bridging passages and codas tagged onto tunes. And that awful electronic screeching on Dr. Gilbert's (*SKIP TRACK*).
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Bothy Band - that harpsichord sound is horrible, take it away. The backing's too loud, shut up. Fiddle flute & pipes are great but TP's scatch triplets have always annoyed me, like chalk on a blackboard. That track Michael speaks of is the best - Traveller set.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Taste, taste, taste. It's all personal and I'd never criticise anyone for liking this band or that, and I'd defend to the death any band's right to play the chunes in any way they saw fit. Someone once thought that Lunasa would be right up my alley and so they bought me their first two CDs for my birthdays. Played the first one once all through (Merry Sisters) and it hasn't been out of its case since that day. Played about the first six tracks of the next one then turned it off with a bleedin' headache. Slick, fast, relentless, a lot of bad over-clever tunes, over-loud and crowded arrangements, a load of that minor-key stuff so beloved of adolescent fiddle players (don't do the forensic on me, please, 'cos I'm not certain which of the two albums that applies to!). And who the Dickens invented low whistles! Cross face emoticon. It's just not for me. Went to see Flook in Bude when McGoldrick, Finnegan, Allin and Kelly were the line-up (if I remember correctly). Absolutely amazing as a one-off, tons of gob-smackingly exciting playing with all the frisson of the live gig. But I wouldn't give their CDs the time of day. I can't and won't listen to that incessant show-off on the bodhran for a start. Maybe times are just moving too fast for me. I want my ITM to be LYRICAL. You may be driven but please don't let it show.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Anyone can suck relative to their own potential....or not. Some do both within the same tune... Some do it for years...
One does well to know: when to go home and get a day job for weeks, years or the rest of your life. Some can't figure it out and style doesn't help one way or the other... if your music doesn't bring joy or calm or stir the soul...
You have to sympathize. Nothing is worse than making music you don't like, just to play the rent.
Obviously...If one is busy developing music that they love there is little time to annotate the foibles of those in the limelight.
Dig.
There must be a Gaelic translation.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I am gobsmacked by the blinkered and opinionated arrogance with which Paul started this thread. I note that he has not been back to comment, and I am aware that he may well just be a troll laughing at anyone who responds, but I give him the benefit of the doubt and take him seriously.
You begin with
"A chairde,"
… and "Hi" to you too mate.
Then you say:
"I am a great admirer of Lúnasa, for example,"
No problem there, Paul, a lot of people like them, but when you go on with:
"and I am amazed that people who see themselves as lovers of Irish music can find anything to criticise with them."
… then you have lost the plot. Guess what? Nobody is above criticism. For Chrissake, if I believed in God I'd have plenty of criticism to make there! Der.
"So far as I can see the problem they have is that Lunasa are not 'traditional enough'. I cannot for the life of me imagine what that means."
Then your imagination must be very limited. A good move might be to ask the people you have been speaking to what they mean. We cannot tell you.
You continue with: "It seems to be that people are unhappy ... The implication is they should be …"
You are inferring that these people mean to imply something about the feelings that you believe them to have. Wouldn't it be better to let those people speak for themselves, and for you to express your own opinion? Or is it just more fun to impute extreme views to people who aren't here to speak for themselves?
You ask: "Does the world really need another recording of the old chestnuts like Christmas Eve? No it doesn't."
If everybody involved in playing ITM for the last hundred years had played exactly the same tunes in exactly the same way then you might have a point. Whether or not any particular tune is an "old chestnut" depends very much on the way it is played. Guess what? Traditional music makes heavy use of old tunes. Der.
"You will not beat the Bothy Band recordings of these sets."
That depends on whether your musical imagination got stuck in the 1970s or not.
"The same thing is happening in classical music. Would anyone dream of recording another set of the Four Seasons or Beethoven's 5th."
Yes.
"I am sure there are people weak minded enough to try, but it would be without value. There is nothing more to say about these pieces."
Wow! You have omniscient insight into the limits and scope of human creativity! But guess what? Art surprises! Der.
"Sometimes this hidebound tradition is potentially harmful."
"Hidebound" is a value judgment of yours. Guess what? Tradition is based on the past. Der.
"To take one example, I was astonished to hear criticism of John McSherry's playing."
That is your example of something harmful? Somebody criticizes someone you like? Guess what? Nobody is above criticism. Der. Oh, sorry, I already made that point – der to me!
"So far as I could make out the basis of this appeared to be that he had not remade Paddy Keenan's first album."
And your statement is based on what? Did your acquaintance who dared criticize someone you like say-so? Or is this more wild, blathering imputation? You tell me!
"So please, enjoy the recordings of the past, …"
So generous of you! Like most of us here, however, I will let my own taste determine what I like, be it new, old, innovative or familiar. I may even express opinions, but I will not be either amazed or astonished if they are not totally shared by everyone else.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I'll risk a guess that Jack is being old-fashioned. "Duh" is an innovation - and a successful one, I'd say - made popular, I think, by the Simpsons.
In one of my previous lives some thirty years ago I was a schoolteacher. We would test kids' intelligence by telling them to put a finger to the side of their heads and to say "red" backwards. The most usual responses, of course, were
a) snigger
b) "der"
c) "red backwards"
I can't remember the distribution, however.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
No, no, no! "Duh" is much older than The Simpsons. What Homer Simpson popularized was "D'oh!" Let's try to maintain a modicum of accuracy in the history of our fine language, shall we?
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
this thread is so similar to the "hiding behind the tradition?" thread just next to it......what gives? is there something in the air right now that is goading these tradition-versus-postmodernism free-for-alls? not that i, a gleeful polemicist who loves to let swing with an opinon in the most irresponsibly hyperbolic terms possible, object to a free-for-all or anything. just wondering why two side-by-side threads right at this moment.....
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Is some of this related to when we all developed a hankering for ITM? Them that hopped aboard in the 70s liked the Bothy Band, folks like me that came aboard in the '90s have a fondness for Solas, since they were breathing new life into the tradition at that time.
Someone once said that most folk's musical taste gets locked into place during high school--could there be a similar effect going on here?
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Trouble is, and I suspect I'm like a lot of people, I hopped aboard the 70s in the 90s. Maybe no bad thing. My collection now extends from the twenties right up to track 6 on Lunasa's second album.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I lied. It hit me between the eyes one day in about 1980 when I was playing a cheapie compilation double LP and this song came on. Planxty, Raggle T......you know the rest.
Hey, I found I could play some of the tunes off that LP on the harmonica!!
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Dear Jack K,
Oh dear what a lot of mistakes you have made. Only pointer I think I can give you is that I am not arrogant. I am just a much better musician than you and I know a lot more about the music.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Paul,
So now you know what kind of musician I am, and how much I know about the music? I somehow doubt it. But since you don't actually have anything to add, I will leave you to it.
No, by the way, it doesn't help any more than your first exercise in opionatedness.
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
You do realise that from a distance, these sorts of discussions look like something that Gulliver would have encountered on his Travels. Big enders and little enders and all that. The curse of the chattering classes descending on simple People's Music. Not enough people care about trad of any sort for folk to be falling out over it.
When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
A chairde,
I have been interested recently in comments about 'new' bands. I am a great admirer of Lúnasa, for example, and I am amazed that people who see themselves as lovers of Irish music can find anything to criticise with them. So far as I can see the problem they have is that Lunasa are not 'traditional enough'. I cannot for the life of me imagine what that means. It seems to be that people are unhappy that Lunasa play 'new' tunes, or arrangements of tunes from outside the tradition. The implication is they should be recording sets of the Salamanca into the Longford Tinker, which by definition would be great, they say. My question is: why on earth would you?What would be the point? Does the world really need another recording of the old chestnuts like Christmas Eve? No it doesn't. By all means play them, as I do and love them in a session setting. But the definitive recordings have been done. You will not beat the Bothy Band recordings of these sets. Why try? Surely it is better to extend the range and scope of the music by developing it.
The same thing is happening in classical music. Would anyone dream of recording another set of the Four Seasons or Beethoven's 5th. I am sure there are people weak minded enough to try, but it would be without value. There is nothing more to say about these pieces.
Sometimes this hidebound tradition is potentially harmful. To take one example, I was astonished to hear criticism of John McSherry's playing. So far as I could make out the basis of this appeared to be that he had not remade Paddy Keenan's first album. What on earth would compel anyone to do this? That was a musical statement in and of its time. John comes from a different background and set of circumstances. He plays according to his influences, quite rightly. As such, he is one of the most naturally gifted players of his generation.
So please, enjoy the recordings of the past, play that music and pay tribute to the great players and innovatiors of the past.
But allow people to play and innovate now
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Pól
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
And yet it is traditional to bring something new to old peices
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by ...
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
i wonder if people looked at the bothy band at the time and said similar things.
in about 30 years, the people who are learning tunes from lsitening to lunasa will be playing it as if it was part of the tradition normally and some other person will be saying why arent bands then playing the morning nightcap and rathlin island-sporting paddy. this is just the rough period while stuff is being integrated into the tradition as near as i can tell.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Kevo32A
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Is it not rather the case that it's a shame Lunasa aren't doing anything more with the music than The Bothy Band did?
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by ...
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I don't like them because I find the sound more "plastic" , and lacking "soul". It isn't about technique for me. I just don't "feel" it when I listen to Lunasa.
I know those are VERY subjective terms. It is the same reason that makes me dislike most Jazz, but LOVE Blues with all my heart. It is just a matter of taste and not necessarily to do with talent or dazzle factor.
I dislike "Flook" for the same reasons, and yet Michael McGoldrick is to be commended for adding a lot of new ideas and innovations to "Trad" playing.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by yekdeli
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I don't think innovation is bad. But most of "innovative" or "new" elements in this music will be regarded as outmoded and forgotten in 30 years, rather than integrated into the tradition. I love old-fashioned traditional music because it has stood the test of time and will never "age."
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by slainte
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Oh. sore nerve touched!
And what exactly did The Bothy Band do, llig leahcim? Please spell it out for those on this site who aren't familiar with the band's music and its utter importance in terms of almost everything that's happened in ITM since 1975. Go on, be positive for a change!
On the other hand, much as I enjoy John McSherry's piping, I have harboured for some time the suspicion that he really does want to be Paddy Keenan. This is not intended flippantly, but compare the hairstyles!
John shouldn't need to do so as his music is utterly individual, technically brilliant and thoroughly enjoyable.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Although I know the members are all excellent musicians and respect them, I'm not a big fan of Lunasa. That's not because they are not "traditional enough" but because their music lacks spontaneity and sounds "plastic" as yekdeli put it. They don't sound as new as the Bothy Band. Fook is fine to me though.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by slainte
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Lunasa is a modern version of the Bothy Band, more or less. It's the same basic idea, but they've added a bass and they're pushing the envelope just a little further. Both bands are well forged within traditional music and feature top-rate musicians. What they're contributing isn't taking away anything from the tradition and poses no threat whatsoever. If anything, because of the musician's abilities and credentials -- it's drawing people in.
For me, it was bands like the Bothy Band that got me interested and directed my attention towards ITM. After spending a couple of decades exploring it I have a clearer understanding of what it is that bands like the Bothy Band and Lunasa are contributing. But had it not been for bands like that I might never have discovered the larger picture. Just because you enjoy the contributions of bands like that doesn't render you incapable of appreciating the "pure drop" music as well.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
The Phantom Button posted almost exactly what I was going to write. In my case, it was the Canadian band Leahy that first drew me into ITM, even though Leahy is more Celtic-inspired than Celtic. And now that I play, I'm more interested in the nuts and bolts of ITM, and I've also gained a new appreciation, and understanding, of how Leahy and similar bands play with the form.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
The Bothy Band had Triona ni Domhnaill's scarifying singing - I mean, in the good sense, it was exciting. Mary Black with De Danann was in the same league. There are lots of perfectly good singers out there, but those two, IMO, do, or did, have that bit extra over and above most of them.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by nicholas
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Even though I liked Mary just fine, my favorite singer with De Danann was Dolores Keene. I had the pleasure of seeing both Dolores and Mary on the same stage with De Danann once here in SF.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Fair enough PB & no harm to the ladies but, without a doubt, my favourite De Danann line up was the one which had both Johnny Moynihan & Tim Lyons!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I was young and cool when the Bothy Band were young and cool. I liked them well enough, but I liked "pure drop" stuff at the same time - I like that it is raw, expressive and has an interesting history. But mainly I like it for the very subjective reason that I simply enjoy it.
However, Pol, i disagree that this or that player or group has produced a "definitive" recording of any traditional tune or set, leaving the rest of us with nothing further to add that could possibly be worth hearing. Just because the Bothy Band recording of the Kesh Jig was very popular, does not mean that they in some way "own" it. It is first and foremost a traditional jig like any other, not an album track. Just as a Beethoven symphony is a piece of music to perform again and again down through the ages - not a "concept album".
As for Lunasa and many other "trad bands" of this and previous decades, I take them on their merits. I don't have a problem with innovation. What I find too often is that the players are good technicians, but play with little depth or expression. It is often a mechanical performance by the melody players over a "clever" backing. I don't need to go to traditional music for this, there is plenty of it everywhere else at the moment. Perhaps this makes bands like Lunasa very much musicians of their time - but it just serves to remind me why I like the so called pure drop.
Sure, I respect the tradition - but mainly I just enjoy it.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by kris
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
One of us is losing the plot Dick - Johnny Moynihan wasn't at that gig in Dundee, if that's what you're referring to. I still have the tape ! Johnny Moynihan was with Planxty in Dundee.
[ Dundee was the place to be in the 70s, obviously ].
As far as the original question is concerned, I respect the tradition and those who carried it forward, but I don't worship them. My life was probably changed by "the music" before the "Bothy Band" came along, but they certainly reinforced that decision, and if anyone can name me a Scottish wooden flute player before the "Bothy Band" 's 1st LP came out, I'll be very surprised. They turned a lot of people on to Irish music in the first place in the mid-70s, and indirectly changed the face of Scottish music as well.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Kenny
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
or maybe even directly.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Kenny
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Could have sworn they were both there in Dundee, Kenny! I must listen to that tape again - not that that job is such a hardship!
However, you can cancel that appointment with your shrink - I'm sure 'I lost the plot' a long time ago.
As for Planxty, I know I never did see them in Dundee. I did see them in Edinburgh though, with Logan - After the Break & still have the photos to prove it!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Wrong again Kenny!
) & Johnny Moynihan was indeed there & is singing 'Love Will You Marry Me' right now ..... & then a little later Tim Lyons sings about the 'King of Spain'! Brilliant concert & their best line up IMHO
Sorry, but I'm just listening to that very tape again (JOY
Phew - means I can now cancel my own appt. with my shrink!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
One of the many highlights of that concert, for me Kenny, was Tim playing a gorgeous slow air on Melodeon while Johnny & Charlie accompanied him on Bouzoukis & at the end of the air they launched straight into two cracking Slides with the rest of the band joined them.
Pól, I think the reason De Danann were by far & away my favourite band, was because they did NOT feel the need to use any gimmicks, they just played the music straight down the line!
I was just over at YouTube re-living old memories by watching two of my all-time favourite bands Free & Rory Gallagher, on video & those outfits seemed to have the same ethos as De Danann - i.e. play it simple & from the heart - ....... well, it gets me every time!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Dick. - we're hijacking this thread, and I don't want to do that - I'll email you later.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Kenny
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Kenny, I see you actually posted another cracking tune that Tim played that night - 'The Kerry Mills':
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5612
I guess you musn't have taped the songs that night!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I saw Lunasa last summer at a festival and left before the end of their set. All flash and no heart.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by dafydd
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Pól, sorry for the slight detour, although De Dannan may well be an ideal example of the more traditional sounding band, in contrast with the more innovative.
However, I must just clarify that although I prefer listening to the more 'old fashioned' sounding groups, with a different hat on, I also love the innovators & one of the best concerts I ever attended was Coolfin in Coleraine, with their Drums, Persussion, Bass + Donal's Bouzouki as a rhythm section!
Basically, there has to be room for both, or the whole thing is in danger of stagnating.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I'll be paraphrasing but I'm pretty sure it was Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh whao said that when she first heard the Bothy Band it was amazing that the tune playing was pretty much down the line traditional but the strumming just did her nut in.
I think it's important to remember that tune playing is the heart of it. Listen, for example, the two tunes Malloy and Peoples play in eflat on their own on the first record. It really is fantastic pure drop
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by ...
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Wasn't Paul Brady strumming away on that record?
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by dafydd
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Really? I've not heard that one.
But the important point is that the tune playing is down the line
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by ...
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Yes, on the whole the melody instruments play it straight, maybe one instrument starting a set or one filling a gap on its own, and sooner or later the backers (guitar, keyboard, zouk) come in with a mighty bash and clobber their way through in a pretty straightforward manner. (Of course they could arrange, where it suited them - and the tune / song involved.) Result - the tunes and instruments spoke. Most exciting ITM band ever, IOM. I think Silly Wizard was the Scottish equivalent. From what I've listened to, early Altan ran them close.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by nicholas
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I think I'm trying to say that these bands didn't over-manicure the tunes and the backing sounds to create an over-precious performance, subordinated to novel rhythmic and harmonic effects, e.g.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by nicholas
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
"So far as I can see the problem they have is that Lunasa are not 'traditional enough'. I cannot for the life of me imagine what that means."
It means that the person you're talking to likes the pure drop trad stuff more. Lunasa are more trad than the likes of Flook or Grada but they still insist on jazzing it up with funky syncopation, and that's not trad, it's jazzy syncopation.
The things that annoy me about Lunasa - in other words, the aspects of their music that aren't trad enough for my tastes - are their too-cool-for-school arrangements with sickeningly sweet low whistle harmonies and stupid little funky bridging passages and codas tagged onto tunes. And that awful electronic screeching on Dr. Gilbert's (*SKIP TRACK*).
'Part from that they're ok.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Bothy Band - that harpsichord sound is horrible, take it away. The backing's too loud, shut up. Fiddle flute & pipes are great but TP's scatch triplets have always annoyed me, like chalk on a blackboard. That track Michael speaks of is the best - Traveller set.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Taste, taste, taste. It's all personal and I'd never criticise anyone for liking this band or that, and I'd defend to the death any band's right to play the chunes in any way they saw fit. Someone once thought that Lunasa would be right up my alley and so they bought me their first two CDs for my birthdays. Played the first one once all through (Merry Sisters) and it hasn't been out of its case since that day. Played about the first six tracks of the next one then turned it off with a bleedin' headache. Slick, fast, relentless, a lot of bad over-clever tunes, over-loud and crowded arrangements, a load of that minor-key stuff so beloved of adolescent fiddle players (don't do the forensic on me, please, 'cos I'm not certain which of the two albums that applies to!). And who the Dickens invented low whistles! Cross face emoticon. It's just not for me. Went to see Flook in Bude when McGoldrick, Finnegan, Allin and Kelly were the line-up (if I remember correctly). Absolutely amazing as a one-off, tons of gob-smackingly exciting playing with all the frisson of the live gig. But I wouldn't give their CDs the time of day. I can't and won't listen to that incessant show-off on the bodhran for a start. Maybe times are just moving too fast for me. I want my ITM to be LYRICAL. You may be driven but please don't let it show.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Some folks might want one of these, just to save time:
http://store.theonion.com/product_info.php?products_id=198
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by fidkid
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Does this remind you of - "respect for the tradition"?:
http://www.monkeyboy.ws/photos/uncategorized/flogger350x450.jpg
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Anyone can suck relative to their own potential....or not. Some do both within the same tune... Some do it for years...
One does well to know: when to go home and get a day job for weeks, years or the rest of your life. Some can't figure it out and style doesn't help one way or the other... if your music doesn't bring joy or calm or stir the soul...
You have to sympathize. Nothing is worse than making music you don't like, just to play the rent.
Obviously...If one is busy developing music that they love there is little time to annotate the foibles of those in the limelight.
Dig.
There must be a Gaelic translation.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by red_tiger
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
'Nothing is worse than making music you don't like, just to pay the rent'....
Being sodomized by a rhinoceros?
# Posted on February 19th 2007 by Dragut Reis
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Oh, I don't know...
# Posted on February 19th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
LOL. At least you know it's always gonna be horny.
Argh sorry.
# Posted on February 19th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Mind you, the thought of those heavy front legs on the shoulders...better get down to the gym...
# Posted on February 19th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I am gobsmacked by the blinkered and opinionated arrogance with which Paul started this thread. I note that he has not been back to comment, and I am aware that he may well just be a troll laughing at anyone who responds, but I give him the benefit of the doubt and take him seriously.
You begin with
"A chairde,"
… and "Hi" to you too mate.
Then you say:
"I am a great admirer of Lúnasa, for example,"
No problem there, Paul, a lot of people like them, but when you go on with:
"and I am amazed that people who see themselves as lovers of Irish music can find anything to criticise with them."
… then you have lost the plot. Guess what? Nobody is above criticism. For Chrissake, if I believed in God I'd have plenty of criticism to make there! Der.
"So far as I can see the problem they have is that Lunasa are not 'traditional enough'. I cannot for the life of me imagine what that means."
Then your imagination must be very limited. A good move might be to ask the people you have been speaking to what they mean. We cannot tell you.
You continue with: "It seems to be that people are unhappy ... The implication is they should be …"
You are inferring that these people mean to imply something about the feelings that you believe them to have. Wouldn't it be better to let those people speak for themselves, and for you to express your own opinion? Or is it just more fun to impute extreme views to people who aren't here to speak for themselves?
You ask: "Does the world really need another recording of the old chestnuts like Christmas Eve? No it doesn't."
If everybody involved in playing ITM for the last hundred years had played exactly the same tunes in exactly the same way then you might have a point. Whether or not any particular tune is an "old chestnut" depends very much on the way it is played. Guess what? Traditional music makes heavy use of old tunes. Der.
"You will not beat the Bothy Band recordings of these sets."
That depends on whether your musical imagination got stuck in the 1970s or not.
"The same thing is happening in classical music. Would anyone dream of recording another set of the Four Seasons or Beethoven's 5th."
Yes.
"I am sure there are people weak minded enough to try, but it would be without value. There is nothing more to say about these pieces."
Wow! You have omniscient insight into the limits and scope of human creativity! But guess what? Art surprises! Der.
"Sometimes this hidebound tradition is potentially harmful."
"Hidebound" is a value judgment of yours. Guess what? Tradition is based on the past. Der.
"To take one example, I was astonished to hear criticism of John McSherry's playing."
That is your example of something harmful? Somebody criticizes someone you like? Guess what? Nobody is above criticism. Der. Oh, sorry, I already made that point – der to me!
"So far as I could make out the basis of this appeared to be that he had not remade Paddy Keenan's first album."
And your statement is based on what? Did your acquaintance who dared criticize someone you like say-so? Or is this more wild, blathering imputation? You tell me!
"So please, enjoy the recordings of the past, …"
So generous of you! Like most of us here, however, I will let my own taste determine what I like, be it new, old, innovative or familiar. I may even express opinions, but I will not be either amazed or astonished if they are not totally shared by everyone else.
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by BanJacki
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I always thought it was spelt "duh"...
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I'll risk a guess that Jack is being old-fashioned. "Duh" is an innovation - and a successful one, I'd say - made popular, I think, by the Simpsons.
In one of my previous lives some thirty years ago I was a schoolteacher. We would test kids' intelligence by telling them to put a finger to the side of their heads and to say "red" backwards. The most usual responses, of course, were
a) snigger
b) "der"
c) "red backwards"
I can't remember the distribution, however.
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Hahahaha catch me tonight and we can try that on some of the people at the session.
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
No, no, no! "Duh" is much older than The Simpsons. What Homer Simpson popularized was "D'oh!" Let's try to maintain a modicum of accuracy in the history of our fine language, shall we?
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
No, no, no! "Duh" is much older than The Simpsons. What Homer Simpson popularized was "D'oh!'"
Or was is "Dow"?
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
this thread is so similar to the "hiding behind the tradition?" thread just next to it......what gives? is there something in the air right now that is goading these tradition-versus-postmodernism free-for-alls? not that i, a gleeful polemicist who loves to let swing with an opinon in the most irresponsibly hyperbolic terms possible, object to a free-for-all or anything. just wondering why two side-by-side threads right at this moment.....
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Is some of this related to when we all developed a hankering for ITM? Them that hopped aboard in the 70s liked the Bothy Band, folks like me that came aboard in the '90s have a fondness for Solas, since they were breathing new life into the tradition at that time.
Someone once said that most folk's musical taste gets locked into place during high school--could there be a similar effect going on here?
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Trouble is, and I suspect I'm like a lot of people, I hopped aboard the 70s in the 90s. Maybe no bad thing. My collection now extends from the twenties right up to track 6 on Lunasa's second album.
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
I lied. It hit me between the eyes one day in about 1980 when I was playing a cheapie compilation double LP and this song came on. Planxty, Raggle T......you know the rest.
Hey, I found I could play some of the tunes off that LP on the harmonica!!
# Posted on February 21st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Dear Jack K,
Oh dear what a lot of mistakes you have made. Only pointer I think I can give you is that I am not arrogant. I am just a much better musician than you and I know a lot more about the music.
Hope that helps
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Pól
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
Paul,
So now you know what kind of musician I am, and how much I know about the music? I somehow doubt it. But since you don't actually have anything to add, I will leave you to it.
No, by the way, it doesn't help any more than your first exercise in opionatedness.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by BanJacki
Re: When does respect for the tradition become flogging a dead horse?
You do realise that from a distance, these sorts of discussions look like something that Gulliver would have encountered on his Travels. Big enders and little enders and all that. The curse of the chattering classes descending on simple People's Music. Not enough people care about trad of any sort for folk to be falling out over it.
Peace and love all
# Posted on March 3rd 2007 by Bren